Mormon Stories 1406: Sandra Tanner - Reflections on Mark Hofmann & "Murder Among the Mormons" Pt 2
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- Опубліковано 1 сер 2024
- This week Mormonism and the world (basically) have been captivated by the new Netflix Documentary "Murder Among the Mormons" - which covers the Salt Lake City bombings of 1985, and is currently #2 in the USA on Netflix. (SPOILER ALERT!!!)
While reactions to the documentary (produced & directed by friends Jared Hess and Tyler Measom) have been universally SUPER positive, many progressive and post-Mormons have expressed a wish that the documentary would have spent more time discussing the role of the Mormon church in: a) creating the environment that gave rise to the bombings, b) attempting to cover up/hide its problematic history, and c) obstruct or hinder the investigation of the bombings.
I this epic, 2-part, 6 hour interview with Mormon/Ex-Mormon legend Sandra Tanner, we cover many of the questions/topics/issues that progressive and post-Mormons have been wanting to know about the Mormon church, Mark Hofmann, the bombings, and the investigations, such as:
What do we know about Mark Hofmann's childhood?
When and how did Hofmann loose his Mormon faith?
What are the similarities between Joseph Smith and Hofmann?
What can we ascertain about Mark Hofmann's possible motives for forgery?
What role did the church play in hiding or covering up Hofmann's forgeries and contributing to the environment that led up to the bombings?
Perhaps most importantly, Sandra recounts the inspiring story of her husband, Jerald Tanner, discovering that Hofmann's Salamander Letter was a forgery a FULL YEAR before the bombings.
All this, and so much more.
Part 1 (4 hours) talks mostly about Sandra's memories during and after the bombings.
Part 2 (2 hours) focuses more on Sandra's direct reactions to the documentary Murder Among the Mormons.
We hope you enjoy, and a HUGE thanks to Sandra (and Jerald) Tanner for sharing with us their historic insight. For me, this was a true honor. MORE TO COME!
P.S. If you value Sandra and her contributions to Mormon history, please support Sandra Tanner and Utah Lighthouse Ministry with your donations!!!
====================
00:00:00 - Sandra’s impressions of “Murder Among the Mormons”
00:14:39 - How the LDS church was portrayed in the documentary - positive vs. negative
00:21:06 - Could this documentary pose a challenge to some member’s faith?
00:23:16 - Truly’s role in the documentary & lawyers as church “historians”
00:30:20 - Was it smart for it not to be a “hit piece” in the LDS church?
00:42:11 - How the story is being revived
00:51:15 - Could Hofmann had any accomplices’?
00:54:44 - Heroes & villiain of the story
01:00:35 - Culpability of the LDS church & their obstructing of justice
01:04:13 - Sandra’s recommendations for books on this subject
01:10:47 - Legacy of the Hofmann scandal & its impact on Mormonism
01:22:56 - “Lying for the Lord” & how Joseph Smith set a president of dishonesty within the church
01:28:04 - Why people stay in the church after they have lost their faith
01:32:21 - Could there be another event like this that threatens the church?
01:34:35 - Sandra’s predictions for the future of Mormonism
01:39:48 - Upcoming biography on Jerald & Sandra Tanner
01:43:41 - Sandra’s experiences from Mormon Stories Podcast
01:50:07 - Reflections on Jerald Tanner
01:54:21 - Closing remarks
Dearest Sandra, may you live 120 years with love and good health.
My heart is breaking over how many years I was told to essentially revile this delightful woman. Her breadth and depth of knowledge is incredible, and her integrity, understanding, and graciousness are impressive. What a great loss to my own life, for not "meeting" her sooner. Thank you, Sandra, and thank you, John!
And Sandra would have wanted you to meet Jerald
She is indeed so knowledgeable, full of integrity and yet so personable and well spoken. Hearing her talk feels like listening to your next door neighbor. V relatable
Highly Recommended! Sandra Tanner has earned the Lifetime Achievement Award for exposing bogus Mormon truth claims.
Celebrity alert !!! God bless Sandra Tanner. Part of Mormon/LDS history LOVE these long interviews. I would encourage anyone reading this to listen to ALL of her interviews with John
@@gomerpyle7721 Dig down deep and search the information and then you can decide on the information..
@@peterastill9208 : Unfortunately, many are too far conditioned to go down
'The Rabbit Hole' for true discerning, investigation!! 😞
@@joelgoldsmith4747 That is so true. There was someone that lived a few streets away. Whatever you say he just laughs and runs away. No discussion at all.
@@joelgoldsmith4747 krp0 on the l b
Nn
@@idadavis928 : You alright buddy?
I didn't fully understand what you're saying.🤨
She's 80?! Wow! Mrs Tanner is a gorgeous and smart 80
What a marvelous lady. Thank you, John, for all the interviews with Mrs. Tanner. I look forward to many more in the future!
What a great interview! This woman is a legend! Thank you Sandra for being so generous with your time. And thank you too John!
Sandra Tanner is a beautiful and humble woman. Her life story is amazing and her perseverance is unprecedented. How does a person endure so much trial and remain so pure? She offers so much to our community.
Sandra and Jerald were at ground zero, and they were so honest, and correct with their conclusions re the White Salamander. Shame the LDS church could nor show the same integrity. Love the Tanners..... and thanks John for another great podcast. Keep them coming. 👍🏽
I am also struck that Mark Hofmann managed to fool a lot of people internationally but could not get past the Tanners or the local SLC detective; people who would be considered small potatoes on the national scene
@@dianethulin1700 Yes, Sandra and Jerald were sharp as tacks, and super honest too 👍🏽
@@pattykake1076 Agree!!!
*I am sorry again for misspelling Jerold's name. My bad! :(
This is such a great interview! Thank you Sandra & John! So happy to get to hear this! Looking forward to the biography of the Tanners 😃👏👏👏
She’s a joy!
George Throckmorton is a friend of mine. I was lucky enough to hear his account of this story firsthand. He’s a brilliant man. 🥰 Great interview! Thanks Sandra and John.
I grew up in Chicago, never knew any Mormons, and when this all happened I was a teenager. But I remember being absolutely riveted! The Chicago Tribune had great coverage, and I read that paper cover to cover everyday. I was absolutely mesmerized by this story.
I was raised in a very strict, large Roman Catholic household. I am one of 10 children, and it was Catholic schools from K-University. I think in many ways this story fascinated me so much because it reminded me of the Catholic Church.
John thank you for your wonderful interview with Sandra Tanner. As I stated before I could listen to the two of you talk about church history for days. She was gracious with her time and I appreciate her being a part of this discussion. I do agree that all the material from the documentary that didn't make it into the original should be archived. It would really be nice if this came out on DVD and all the material that wasn't used including all the interviews were added as bonus material so you could actually see all the material the film makers were going to utilize when putting this documentary together. Thanks again Sandra Tanner & John we love you!!!
Absolutely John. I quit believing the church cold when this Salamander Letter/ Mark Hofmann situation was exposed. I already had so many problems with the church but felt these were personal moral failings. My family has been members going back to 1830. This has impacted my entire life and relationship with my family. It is very clear to me that it is in fact the church that has moral failings
“We print up some more!” God I love her!
She's so humble ❤ Love her!
Beside MSP listening to the many interviews on UA-cam with Sandra was key to my understanding of LDS theology. First she is a living descendant of Brigham Young ( this would be like hearing from the descendant of Mathew, Mark Luke or John. Second it was BEYOND obvious that she and Gerald made a thorough unflinching truth search was deeply admirable. Lastly she is willing to talk to ANYONE regardless of where they are in their faith journey and she can go theological punch for punch with orthodox Mormons and warmly comfort those who are trying to figure out “what now” if the cornerstone of their belief has been revealed as sand. She is more than just a gem. Great great interview
No. BY is no comparison to the Apostles of the Bible. BY was a murderer (Mountain Meadows), a thief (church money), mentally unstable (blood atonement/Adam-God doctrine and overall a false prophet.
These interviews with Sandra Tanner are so important. I encourage any truth seeker to listen to all of her interviews carefully.
Love all her interviews...she is an amazing women...Great interview John...thank you...🙏
I feel safe in her thinking and teaching.
Sandra Tanner is such a nice, humble person. The world would be a better place with more people like her.
May I personally thank you John for bringing us so many facts about the Church...you have been extremely respectful about all subject matters...I am learning so much...and above all I am listening...I was always the one to raise my hand in Church class...and the class would get so quiet....I found when you begin to question..the Church DOSE NOT like it..sends them into a frenzy...I was a convert...thank you for bringing so many things to the surface..you pick the right people to come on your show...giving all views...and allowing people to go there own way in how they believe..and not judge...keep it going..I am a true fan...🙏
Yay! ❤️💪🙏
Thanks John and Sandra for the interview. Love you both.
You put together that gathering to honor Sandra, and I will do my level best to be there.
Sandra's Tanner is COOL!! I will go back and watch the other videos with her because she is so interesting😊 And as a Christian viewer of the documentary, I wanted more episodes and explanation. I really liked it
The story about the police officer that lost his faith from interviewing the GA's was in the book "The Mormon Murders"
Ooh! Part two. That’s why the other episode cut off so abruptly. Love seeming her back on the podcast to talk about all this.
I have been bingeing Mormon Stories about 2 weeks I need a minimum of 8 hours a day. I have learned so much about Mormanism. More than that I have learned more about my self, my relationship with my church (Baptist). These episodes feed my soul. Thank you!
Sandra Tanner you are the bomb! (in a good way)- You have your own printing press?! Why didn't I know that? I live in San Francisco and Lawrence Ferlinghetti just died a short time ago. I loved that City Lights had their own printing press and even your names both mention Light. Yes thank you for enlightening us! The power of the press!
Loved the interview with Mrs. Tanner. I left the LDS church as a teenager and devoured the Tanner's work. I was never one of those people who hated the Church after leaving, just grieved that so many had been and are being deceived, but some of the best people I knew as a young man were Mormons. Hopefully more people come to know the Biblical Christ and that Mrs. Tanner and ULM keep doing this work for many years to come!
Interesting to learn that LDS Church "Historians" are lawyers, not professional historians. After the interview, I checked the bios of the current chief church historian, and the ones in the recent past. Sure thing, they are lawyers. I also checked to see if, before law school, they had gotten a bachelor's degree in History. No, not really. Their mission as church "historians" is not to perform serious historical research, but to defend the legal interests of LDS Inc. Come to think of it, this corporation has a long tradition of usurping titles. (Beginning with "prophets, seers and revelators"...)
To be fair theres probably not alot of money in the feild of "Mormon History"So it doesn't make a great career path.
@@strengthisthesolution2294 It would be their eternal career path
@@dianethulin1700 ha
@@strengthisthesolution2294 Sure, but if they really want to have a "Church Historian", they could at least hire an actual historian. (Even a historian that has not dedicated his/her whole career and studies to Mormon history. But a historian nonetheless...) Even at BYU, they have degrees in History. It shouldn't be too hard to find a "worthy" LDS with background in History to be the chief Church Historian. (If their goal/focus was really history...)
@@hildabingen8100 I agree I do wish that the church would take a little bit more of an offensive stance with the polygamy in blacks and the priesthood and stuff like that, but I personally think it's because either they don't know or they do know but it's not something that the average person is spiritually prepared enough to understand so they don't go in the great depths about it
As a former faithful Mormon of over 40 years, I too felt betrayed after learning the past history and hearing the current misrepresentations from the church's leaders. However, I don't think it will ever completely disappear. Just look at the Catholic church, with its wealth and pageantry, and you see a clear picture of what can happen with a powerful religion. Humans seem to need a religious structure, and if you look only at the surface of the Mormon church, it gives the appearance of clean living, family focus, and service orientation, which will continue to attract those who only want a social group of which to be a part. It really doesn't matter to me; I now see all religions as human animal constructs. Even though we still have children who are among the "faithful", we have a civil relationship with them, though we did lose many so-called 'friends' after we left. The Mormon church will always be a part of our lives, though not an active part. It feels like a huge load has been lifted from our backs, and we are so much happier and at peace now than when we were allowing the Mormon church to dictate every aspect of our lives. There truly IS life after Mormonism!
John, I agree with Sandra’s impression from the first interview years back. But your appreciation and admiration for Sandra and Gerald definitely shine brightly throughout this long interview. Your fondness for her made me smile throughout. Thanks so much for bringing her back!
Sandra should get her stuff on Audio! Hell I’m listening to Rough Stone Rolling right now and it’s 25 hours. I ‘read’ while I work. I’d love to listen to her books!
Thank you John and Sandra! I love you both!
Sandra you downplay yourself a lot and you really should know (and take to heart) what the Tanners mean in our community! Just AWESOME the amount of work you’ve done.
Whistleblowers are heroes and heroines! Thank you, Sandra, for all of your amazing work.
Bless you, Sandra... I'm looking forward to seeing you too
40:30 yes I agree, they do need to save these interviews for archival purposes.
Thank you for the interview. I was a teenager at the time, so these events didn't make an impression on me. I watched the documentary, but this two part interview added so much to the story.
Always so impressed with Sandra Tanner. So good and thanks John for putting this together.
I've heard the Church's yearly increase is at or near zero. Perhaps we are starting to get to a tipping point? Perhaps the scandals that happen here on out will accelerate the exodus.
all organized religions are on the decline, that's why missions are such a big thing.
Great interview. I love Sandra Tanner. Does anyone know how many have left the church since 2010?
The Hoffman stuff was one of the earliest items I put on my shelf.
On the point about access to full interviews, Frontline makes all of theirs available for free on UA-cam. I agree, these are historically very valuable.
I was in awe how little Hoffmann's wife knew, or claimed to not know. How could you not have entry into a room in your home.
or not be somewhat curious after your husband who has been keeping a secret his entire life tried to open up to you at one point, in pride.
All of these wives of serial killers like BTK strike me as resigned to the point of illustrating the patriarchal ideals of small town americana.
It’s odd, but happens. Check out the Josef Fritzl case.
In the many true crime stories I’ve followed, it’s not uncommon for the family to accept that there’s an off limit room.
She amazing lady! Love her...
This was such an enjoyable interview! Thank you, John and Sandra 😍
Sandra Tanner you are a legend in my book. 🤍
I wouldn't be surprised if the church expressly demanded that Jerald's discovery about the salamander letter NOT be mentioned in the doc.
Thank you Sandra! You and your husband did ground breaking work uncovering the lie of Mormonism. I am a never no and I have learned so much from you!!!
A never Mo!
She’s so inspiring!
Fascinating
I truly want to be part of honoring Sandra Tanner if you end up organizing a tribute to her!
Robert Lindsey also wrote The Falcon and the Snowman. I found out about Hoffman by reading A Gathering of Saints I agree with Sandra
I'm a transcriber and would love to type up the interviews!
Smart lady! John asks what scandal could actually bring the church down and she says maybe a big financial scandal. Fast forward to 2023 & the SEC fine! Maybe she's a seer & revelator!!
Omg Sandra is the absolute cutest!
If the footage is owned by the BBC, it will be archived in London, and will become freely available some day under the UK’s freedom of information laws.
Hey John, could you add the list of books recommended by Sandra in the show notes? I think one of them was by Robert Lindsay which I located on Amazon. I’ll stop by TLM to pick up the Tanners. I have Salamander but have never read it...but I will now! Love the time stamp feature btw, I easily found the answer to my question about Ashworth being the third bomb’s target. Good follow up on your part.
I would love to have known what the gossip was behind the scenes. But it was fascinating as it was.
I think the documentary made the Mormon church look shady to those outside the church, and I also believe what Sandra said...from a true believing Mormon they justified what the church did as necessary...
1:27:55 yes I do feel sorry for church employees. I know of several people who work at BYU or at the church headquarters building who are closeted gay members but can’t leave due to the good paying salaries and pensions. It is definitely spiritual blackmail.
These are very interesting podcasts. Now that the curtain has been “pulled back”is there anybody tracking data on how many people have left and or data that tracks new membership? I grew up up non Mormon in Utah and have always taken an interest in watching ex Mormons leave and why.
I'm LITERALLY HAVING A Mormon "FAITH CRISIS"... is there any kind of thrive groups I can join? Online forums? I need to speak to people about things I'm realizing about true church history.
ExMormon Reddit?
Mormon Stories Podcast Community on Facebook?
Sandra Tanner is a gutsy lady. Quite likeable in her demeanor.
Wow 80. I wold have placed her in her 60s this work has kept her young!
John, I never ever read of heard anything about D&C 132: 41.
There is something there that is very striking, and I think quite damaging to the LDS church.
“41 And as ye have asked concerning adultery, verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man receiveth a wife in the new and everlasting covenant, and if she be with another man, and I have not appointed unto her by the holy anointing, she hath committed adyltery and shall be destroyed.”
It says there, in black and white, that if a woman does have received the holy anointing , she can enter into a polyandrous relationship. Does everyone not see that ?!
I hope to hear you once talking about that.
I wonder if the discrepancy in Sandra's memory of the Hoffman issue being the biggest apostasy vs John's impression of it being around 2013/2015 is that her impression is based more on foot traffic and letter writing to the book shop while John's is through the lense of the Internet. Surely the way people were navigating their faith crises in a public realm had just changed a lot in the decades between those events.
❤️❤️
as someone familiar with christian history like the early to medieval catholic church, this feels like mormonism is acquainting itself with the reality of religious scripture.
/it all has to be forgery/.
Exactly... I love Sandra, and her efforts to expose Mormon scripture forgeries. I would love her even more if she used the same skills to delve into Christian scripture forgeries. But oh well, that would be CONDITIONAL love. (The kind of love that "President" Nelson attributes to God.) We can do better than that. 🤣🤣🤣
@@hildabingen8100 Say what? God has conditional love?
@@feurigerStern According to "president"/"prophet" Nelson, God's love is conditional. He has said it multiple times.
I already knew about the Tanners and Hofmann and read some of the books about Hofmann, so I was a little disappointed in the documentary.
On the other hand, it might help prevent some from getting sucked into Mormonism. (I doubt if very many TBMs will doubt the church because of the documentary.)
Putting myself in the shoes of someone knowing nothing about Hofmann or the Mormons, I see the documentary as just an interesting documentary.
As an ex-Mormon knowing how corrupt Mormonism is, I wanted information to get out about how Mormon leaders are more fallible than they claim.
"Mistakes Were Made, But Not By Me," may be the best relatively simple book on cognitive dissonance. As I was coming out of Mormonism, the book helped me say to myself when the straw broke, "I might as well admit it, the (Mormon) church is not true."
For the same reason, the book also eventually helped me say to myself, "I am officially a fool, I'm an atheist, oh my God (who doesn't likely exist)."
Mormons usually deny it, but the church does imply that Mormon prophets are infallible. When the prophets get caught being infallible, then they come up with the excuses like, "he is still a prophet, but he was just talking as a man, not as a prophet."
Dear Sandra, Thanks for your help years ago! You send me a mail after the question I had for you:
“Dear Sandra,
Would you be so kind to mail me the letter, which you have send to the lds church, with the request to see the 1832 first vision account.
When I have the date I can show proof here in my ward that it was you who triggerd the “founding” of the 1832 account by the church.
Thanks a lot.
Sincerly,
Roland Vreeken”
“ I can send you photo copies of the letters, but neither mine nor Joseph Fielding Smith's are on letter head, just typed letters. When I asked my bishop to give me a copy of JFS letter, after the bishop read it to me in his office, all he would do was later give me a copy, not the original. So a Mormon could easily dismiss them. However, we quote from the letter in our 1963 mimeographed book, 'Mormonism', where we wrote a whole chapter on the problems of the first vision. That book is in various libraries here in Utah so there is no question as to the date.
Sandra Tanner”
2/12/2018
I have now learned so much more about that horrible Mormon church. Thank you so much for your help!
Great talk John!!
Here is a question for mormons; Please explain how; after Joseph Smith finally obtained the plates was able to run 3 miles back to home, through the woods, at night, fighting off 3 attackers (2 with guns) who were trying to steal the plates, while carrying (given the size and dimension) about 200 lbs of gold plates?
How can I meet her, John?
42:09 Never Mo here! Honestly, of all the people to allow own someone's footage, PBS is who you want. They're very good about archiving interviews and various footage since their whole thing is education. Maybe some day we'll get a comprehensive Ken Burns series on the church!
I did not like the end of showing his face through the years in prison. Would have been better to show the victims faces.
How is it legal to deny someone their earned retirement when employed by BYU as a educator or administrative staff when they leave the LDS faith ?
5million member if they're honest. They do have to make sure well I can't say that part here. Job.
I think we would all like a balanced picture of the truth from the media (ahem Fox News and CNN cough, cough). I think the question for me is not how balanced it was but how deep it went. I’d love to see the edited content. If the filmmakers are indeed faithful members, applause for being willing to tackle it at all.
Just a question, I'm an active member and would like to know,when you left the church how many of you became agnostic or atheist and how many moved to other christian denominations?
This is an often posed question on exmo reddit. Actually it is done in a poll, usually. The percentage is pretty high. Around 85% of exmos ascribe as agnostic/atheist. The reason: the same mental conditioning it takes to unwind Mormonism can be used to unwind any and all religions/faiths. So people who leave the church typically cannot allow themselves to be duped again. I guess you could say personal mental integrity will not allow oneself to be taken advantage of again or exist in some level of cognitive dissonance. It would be like coming to terms with the Easter Bunny and Tooth Fairy not being real but still believing in Santa Claus. Once you figure out the truth on one, the rest tumble down like a stack of dominos. Curiously, i read a stat a few years back having to do with converts to the church from a prior faith/birth religion. 80-ish% of those who leave mornonism will go back to their birth religion.
@@mindeloman Interesting,that's pretty consistent with my personal experience,I've had the talk with more than a few people that I think Mormonism is the closest to what I view as the original Gospel that Christ taught,so if that's not true then I'm defineltey not going to some other church with even more unanswered questions and less similarities to Biblical Christianity .What where some of the main contributors to you leaving if you dont mind me asking?
What a beautiful and loving woman you are. I wish I knew you on a personal level.
She’s 80!?!!
I remembere my tbm aunt stated that the bombs where satan's plan to stop the church! 🤣
How can I be a part of what your doing... I'm illerate but the truth will always come out! I struggle with vengeance but I want to let the more moans . It's a lie and each will stand alone and not worthy of the grace of God. Saint they are not they sin different than I.. Stop lieing more and more moans of in perfection. God help there cult.💪☝️🙌🙏
Guess I will have to find the original story… sounds fascinating. Never heard of this bombing but I’m interested in domestic terrorism. Thanks!