Wheelchair Accessible Dungeon... A Rant about the response to Candlekeep Mysteries
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- Опубліковано 7 жов 2024
- So, I got a little angry... and y'all brought made me go into Lawyer-Mode. I could not believe the comments I saw criticizing the wheelchair accessible dungeon by Jennifer Kretchmer. So I did what I do. Researched something to make an argument about it.
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What I find so funny about this controversy is that one of the most edgy, "realistic," grimdark fantasy-novels I have ever read ("The Blade Itself" by Joe Abercrombie) had a part in it where an adventuring party went through what was, effectively, a wheelchair-accessible dungeon.
It was this ancient tower of a long-dead artificer-mage called "The House of the Maker." It is considered to be the tallest and oldest building in the city. The party entered this massive tower at the base and emerging at a rooftop exit several stories higher than from where they started, without using any stairs, ramps, or elevators. What's even more interesting: The party-member who brings attention to this is a character who suffers from chronic pain and mobility-issues.
Joe Abercrombie invented the Wheelchair-accessible dungeon before WotC did, not by simple ramps, but via unnerving eldritch architecture that bends the fabric of time and space.
I was hoping someone would mention this.
Maybe it's just the fact that I've been playing JRPGs since the 8-Bit days, but the idea of ramps and elevators in dungeons doesn't seem all that strange.
Love this comment. I have the same experience.
It's also a hell of a lot easier for building and expanding said dungeon. If you're going to excavate tons of rock and soil, rolling it out via carts is a hell of a lot more efficient than attempting to carry it out via stairs.
Anger over the existence of ramps... there are whole species in dnd with mobility that don't use stairs.... any mechanical creature on wheels, quadrapedal creatures like centaurs, yuan-ti that have snake bodies, or anyone with swarms of tiny minions wouldn't want stairs. Why would a beholder even put stairs into its dungeon, when it FLOATS?
Even with 2 good legs and a staircase, elevators are awesome! Especially when moving lots of heavy and/or sensitive equipment or supplies.
Cool discussion. When I was writing for Kobold Press I made a dungeon originally designed by "snake people". The whole thing was tubes and ramps because they had no legs. As far as i know no one had a problem with that. There is a lot of room in fantasy for all types of people/creatures.
People seem to only have a problem when you try to make it inclusive. They want to get angry about it because it includes things they dont want to think about. It is why their arguments are generally week.
Cool! I might have that if it is in the Midgard manuals :)
@@ark1567 It is the final section of Dark Deeds in Freeport. Have fun whatever you end up doing.
I'm a 51 year old long-time gamer. Here's why my dungeons are "wheelchair accessible":
. Most "dungeons" in my campaign world came about because of a series of historical events that led to one empire finding it a 'fashion' to have mansions, fortresses, and even some cities having little more than an above ground "welcome area", and the rest of everything is underground. This means that lugging heavy stone quarried out of the underground, bringing furniture down in, and so on would be FAR more efficient with a ramp than with stairs. It is LITERALLY more sensible for these "dungeons" to be wheelchair accessible, as a side effect if not explicitly.
I should note it is entirely coincidence that these dungeons are wheelchair accessible. I thought about the construction first, and made the realization later.
This exactly. Most dungeons are not constructed by villains of the game, they're just things that exist. This castle lies in ruin, abandoned, and things have moved in to the place left alone that was convenient. Why are we going there? Because something was left behind. Perhaps the bones of an old monarch rest there and the necromancer can summon his spirit to ask him what only he may know? Perhaps a jewel was lost there that whatever creatures who live there now would not care about, but that our protagonists must find? Whatever it is, we're going to the ruined castle and there are gonna be rocks, rubble, and the droppings of who knows what to be stepped or climbed over before we find what we seek.
Can you have a character with a disability? Sure you can. Can they go into such a place? How clever are the people at the table, GM included?
I remember seeing a video with her talking about accessible dungeons and how in many cases they actually make MORE sense. Things like gelatinous cubes. How's your cube of jello getting up and down stairs? Wouldn't a ramp be easier? Or races like the yuan-ti who have snake bodies instead of legs. It would make more sense for their lairs to have ramps instead of stairs. It seems like some people fly into a rage at simply being reminded that people who are different from them exist in the world and bend over backwards looking for reasons why they shouldn't.
Very true. And she did on the videos with dnd beyond. When people "tired of diversity and inclusion" they dont stop to think that for those people who are being included, it means something, it can mean a lot. They are so used to being included themselves, they dont get what the big deal is
Yuan ti would probably have poles that connect the levels. Why make it easy for raiders? My kobold lairs are always scaled to them. They don't have lairs that accommodate larger creatures as they get tired of being bullied by them.
I see no big deal. If the ramps were big enough l'd add Centaurs. They'd have problems with stairs.
@@Dragonette666 K?
Yeah, my first thought on seeing this was 'what if the wizard is just old' stairs can become a real hazard even you're just slightly less mobile (I have cerebral palsy at a level where most people can't even tell and people I've known my entire life routinely forget I'm disabled and I still freeze up going down stairs on ocassion). You can't fall down a ramp as easily and honestly if you dig in a straight line you'll end up with one anyway. If you're making a dungeon in a cave, a mine or even just for an elderly wizard why wouldn't you go with a ramp?
Stairs are harder for logistics in large places, I don't understand why it'd be difficult to choose ramps. But that'd require thinking about their world building in a large amount.
Can you imagine bringing in supplies for dozens of people all the time and having to just, carry it all by hand instead of using a cart?
also the use of lifts and pulleys
Another point is that there might be ramps for other reasons, maybe the dungeon maker was a Centaur or used handcarts to move things around.
Or has mini tanks that patrol the halls.
Another thought: I'm going to school for ASL interpreting and I play a campaign entirely in ASL with a group of deaf friends. The pcs are also mostly deaf. When I tell people about this I get similar reactions to the wheelchair arguments: why wouldn't they just fix their hearing if the world has magic? I tell them two things. First, there is no "hearify" spell. It's possible that magic could be possible if the character could hear in the past and had hearing damage, but deafness has many causes, plenty of them genetic. There is no magic CRISPR. Second, playing with deaf characters makes games so much fun and so interesting! The deaf characters get perception and insight bonuses, they think of creative solutions that you might not think of if you could hear, it adds complexity to npc interactions and gives us freedom to create a world where deafness is more accepted. My friends make up signs for fantasy terms like classes, races, etc. It's cool as fuck and the ableists are missing out.
Okay, that comment about trans folks in DnD REALLY brought this one home for me. Talk about not working that empathy muscle! And it all comes back to this weird assumption (ASSUMPTION!!) that disabled and trans folks want or *need* to be "fixed" in some way. I don't need to be fixed; I'm disabled, I'm trans, and I am wholly and exactly as I wish to be. Another most excellent video.
Exactly! Thank you for that. Making my point better than I could.
Considering how often they're excluded in the real world, why is it so hard to understand that people use these fantasy places to still be who they are but in a different light?
It is actually asking "why would you want to be YOU when you don't have to be."
No matter how I create my own characters, I will inevitably find myself in situations where I will just not want to go against certain things that are defining ME as a person, so it's better to include them in my character from the start.
@@PauLtus_B
Piggybacking onto this, maybe some people don't want the power fantasy of being an unstoppable force of nature that can conquer anything, perhaps the fantasy they want actually is based around them, as they are, and the fact that if they were simply allowed to be themselves they could accomplish great things. It's a sad indictment of the real world that people may want to play a game where they're exactly who they already are and just aren't mistreated for it.
Of course the idea that some people would then want to take that small comfort away from them kinda shows you who has decided to play an evil character in real life.
@@diogenesrex7847 I think in some ways you manage to pin down my feeling on it better than I did.
You're completely right, TTRPG's can allow for a space where people can act out the best version of themselves without it feeling like a burden, but they're still just themselves.
You... wish to have not working legs?
im a cane user myself and i'm really glad you're bringing this up. in many ways, dnd needs to work on it's accessibility and even the smallest show of support is incredibly valuable. like, if you want to play a mute, deaf, or hoh spellcaster then you run into the issue of verbal spell components and whether or not sign language counts as a 'verbal' component. if you bring up this question in dnd forums you get a lot of people who's advice boils down to 'just don't play a mute character in the first place' without realizing that disabled people also want to play dnd as themselves.
not to mention how the idea of 'any disability can be healed by magic' is already present in too much fantasy media and has led to very, VERY few fictional representations of disabled people. we're tired of being erased by people who think we need fixed.
of course there's a complex discussion to be had about how disability of any kind will realistically put you at a disadvantage in the dnd world, but there's a balance to be had between ignoring disability completely and having to sit out of important rp interactions because your character can't climb a flight of stairs or that the king of the fucking realm doesn't have an interpreter. a decent chunk of dnd is SUPPOSED to be problem solving, but suddenly when it comes to disability that's 'unnecessary'. because disabled people existing is 'unrealistic'.
maybe i'm ranting too much but this video was honestly so heartwarming to see, and it's good to know that i wasn't alone in feeling angry at all these comments. i hope there are more gms like you out there, and i genuinely hope this encourages more people to play disabled characters in their games.
@HeAintGonnaEmailYou have you ever talked to a deaf person, like. ever? if someone came up with a magical way to give hearing to deaf people even without any side effects or cost, i can't think of a single one i know that would take it. most deaf people are born deaf, and they have no idea what living hearing is like nor do they want to know. outside of a few people that became deaf or hard of hearing later in life, 'fixing' deaf people is only desirable to hearing people who find it inconvenient to learn sign language.
accessibility isn't about '''fixing''' people, its about adapting an environment built with certain assumptions. let's say you living in a world where everyone can fly and you are born without that ability. everywhere you go, buildings are built with the front door on the third story because it's assumed that everyone will be able to just fly in. in this scenario, an accessible solution would be a door on the ground floor or a way to reach the front door without flying. no solution requires 'fixing' the person, just making the building accessible to everyone. hence, why it's called 'accessibility'.
also, why does magic NEED to be verbal or auditory? why can't somatic movements work just as well? it's all make-believe anyways, the only one enforcing that things have to be verbal is the dm (or, more broadly, whoever is making the world). in fact, if magic HAD do be verbal or auditory, how would you cast spells underwater? a silent way to cast spells would also be much preferred by assassins and spies.
'what if there was no deaf people in my world because of this one rule about magic that cannot be changed or worked around' is just lazy world building. what if aquan was a kind of sign language spoken by tritons and other underwater races, which has caught on in most port cities? what about a port city having one of the largest schools for the deaf by merit of most people in the area being fluent in sign? already so much more detail and threads to build off of instead of 'no deaf people sorry'.
@@julietofthebriar I absolutely love those campaign ideas--they're brilliant! :D You mind if I steal them?
I was in the Marines and involved in a vehicle flip and ended up breaking my back. It healed good enough. On bad days I can barely move, on normal days I am cane bound, good days most people don't notice anything.
People can watch me put down the cane and watche put a 250 pound dresser on my back and move it up 3 flights of stairs. Then I hobble with a cane again. When asked why I use a came when I can do that, I reply it just hurts to move, doesn't stop me from moving.
The personal anecdote is just to express that it is easier and more comfortable to just use accessories instead of toughing it out.
But really who even cares about it. If it offends someone to include accessibility options in a dungeon just remove it. Have a world without handicap bad guys and adventures. That being said now I like the idea of a handicap cane bound badass fighter just destroying bad guys during encounters.
This reminds me of the ancient swordsman trope in king fo movies. Beating an assassin with just his cane
I know this video is a bit older now but in DND theres so much magic and such, why can’t a character have an artificer made “magic” wheelchair? Why can’t they just be magically attuned to a magic wheelchair? I feel there’s a way for these things to exist just fine in DND, even just a regular wheelchair, because it is fantasy. We should only ever feel limited by our creativity. There’s more than enough wiggle room to bend the rules a bit to allow this kind of inclusivity
Tasha's Cauldron of Everything has uncommon wondrous magic item, Prosthetic "which replaces a lost limb a hand, an arm, a foot, a leg, or a similar body part. While the prosthetic is attached, it functions identically to the part it replaces. You can detach or reattach it as an action, and it can't be removed against your will. It detaches if you die."
And waaaaay back in Dragonlance, Theros Ironfeld (aka Theros of the Silver Arm) who had the Silver Arm of Ergoth, a legendary artifact that resembled a human arm from the shoulder blade down to the hand and could magically shift to become either a right or left arm. The arm contained the ability to heal wounds or regenerate lost limbs.
The attunement thing is interesting. Maybe a situation where a character would use a wheelchair instead of some other thing would be because of the inherent limits to how many magic items one person can attune to. A wizard who is using multiple different staffs and rings requiring attunement probably wouldn't want to attune to some sort of magic wheelchair or prosthetic, and they likely wouldn't want to keep blowing spell slots on fly every 10 minutes either
I've just started working through your stuff, so I'm not sure when you made the shift from rather generic D&D advice to these impassioned discussions of social issues and gaming. But thank you very much for doing so! As an old bearded white guy I like having my assumptions rattled and I need to get other perspectives on the world.
Please keep it up!
there is wheelchair rugby. look into it. then imagine they would do it with swords
You should check out wheelchair fencing.
My apartment building has a ramp at one end and a staircase at the other end. I have two fully functioning legs. At the end of a long day, while moving stuff, or if I'm going up and down a lot, I use the ramp. I think if I had an evil lair, I wouldn't want to do stairs at the end of a long day of evil doing. Nah, if there's elevator tech, then I'll have an elevator to go up and down and a ramp if the elevator breaks. Also, I burned that spell slot for flying on a battle earlier. And you bet I don't want to break my evil artifact dragging it down a flight of stairs and having it bump on each step.
not to be a dick, but i dont think the dungeon was build by someone in a wheelchair, the country the adventure is set in (acording to some interviews the wrighter did) is close to yuanti countrys, so my guess is the villain is a naga, ramps and elivators still make sence for yuanti and other snake monsters
No issues! The owner being a wheelchair user is an assumption on my part. Mere speculation. As the adventure isnt released, we dont know yet. The designer of the adventure does mention the yuan ti in interviews. I havent asked her specifically if the dungeon has a wheelchair user as an owner, but we'll find out when it is released.
Recent subscriber after rediscovering your Racism in DnD video in my 'watch laters'. Poppin in to say this remains an excellent video and there was like two dudes running up and down trpg tiktok ranting about the combat wheelchair and such for daaaays. Peak moment was one of them saying that dragons were more believable than a wheelchair using adventurer because dragons had realistic traits.
Fun video. Recently found the channel.
Sure, forcing representation into things can be a bad thing. This is not that. It’s just a module for a free-form game you can modify however you want. If you don’t like it, insert stairs and Tenser’s Floating Chair or whatever. That’s on you.
I also wonder how many of the people who think you can just heal the legs have ever played an eye-patch wearing badass in a magical setting. Why not just fix that eye with magic?
I also have to say that one reason I like the concept is that disabled people are often chilled to the point of inspiration porn, but this is, I presume, a villain who probably isn’t written in a way that implies that disability makes people evil or some other unfortunate implication, since it was written by someone who can relate.
Anyhow, good video! Gonna check more out. But I disagree with the last point. I don’t care about being included.
The most radical idea in this video is the pronunciation of wotc as “wotesy.”
Another reason why a dungeon might have ramps is if the owner thought that he might need to move heavy equipment around on carts 🤔
Anyone that complains about representation has always been represented in Media. They don't know what it feels like not to be included to the point they don't understand why representation matters. As a disabled wheelchair user I've experienced a lot of ableism in my life. Inclusion and understanding is the first step to end ignorance. As a disabled person everyone will always see my disability before the person I am. You'll okay with associating my disability as apart of me, but the moment I associate my character with a disability it's wrong? We all want to see ourselves as the heroes in d&d, that's why we play and that includes disabled people.
Just the fact that old people exist in the world should already completely justify the presence of the ramps/elevators.
“If you assume the bad guys have access to it and can afford it, you have to ask who else has access to it and can afford it.” The iron man trilogy kind of (Justin) hammers this point.
Basically the same issue as well.
As a disabled person. A disabled wizard would also want to build an accessible dungeon, cuz disability is nonlinear and people can have good days and bad days in any ratio.
Plus you never know when the teleportation circle in the tower's gonna be on the fritz. F**king Arcanist Otis, he was out here just last week and the thing still doesn't work properly.
Logic is questionable, a dungeon/lair is probably more expensive than a wish/miracle spell to stop being disabled... having infinite roles to play why play the victim?
Literally every time someone I've known someone to say inclusion was being 'shoved down [their] throat' it has just meant that they noticed it existed.
Yeah a wheelchair is literally just a chariot backwards. We’ve made them forever.
I don't get people arguing that it's "silly" or "immersion breaking" in a game where you can turn Guano into Explosions. The boundaries of extraordinary things in D&D is further than the edge of the universe but a chair with wheels on it is "too unrealistic"? I also don't understand arguments that the fan made combat wheelchair is unbalanced. It's 5th edition, nothing is balanced. I truly believe that if balance is of the highest concern to your roleplay experience, grab a new system. Pathfinder 2e for example (which is going to add wheelchairs in an upcoming book and I'm rather excited to see how they work.)
When you get mad about lgbt+ inclusion and combat wheelchairs, but say nothing about mono-species languages/religions and how magic would alter the global economy... the way you think about realism is telling.
@@LegalKimchi wow so cool to get a response! I don't know if you take suggestions but I do want to say you may want to check out Pathfinder 2e. I've seen some of your other videos (Is DND racist being the first) and I think it would be right up your alley. It handles a lot of the topics you talk about in ways that are really worth discussing. LGBTQ+ representation is present in the RAW Serum of Sex Shift, and I think the Mwangi Expanse is a really great example of real world cultural inspiration.
Also they removed the Dex to Damage mechanic which is just objectively right.
A wheelchair accessible dungeon has two extra features that I think the nay-sayers aren't thinking about. First, it makes it REALLY easy to roll up giant barrels of booze to the top floors. Second, it makes it REALLY easy to roll DOWN giant barrels of booze FROM the top floors! So to that end, are we sure that the dungeon isn't just a recreation of the old-school Mario game?
Absolutely brilliant sir. You are a credit to the term DM.
Thank you!
Now my worlds are always so high magic I give everyone a free mage hand and mending as a matter of course but that still doesn't mean disabled people don't exist. As you said a lot of spells for mobility just don't work long term in a Vancian magic system of spell slots and preparations, but, it's also frankly because disabled people just exist I'm not interested at all as a world builder and as someone related to disabled people in having a world without them! As to why individuals in my worlds don't use Regenerate or other spells to regrow limbs: I don't like applying what should be a choice for an individual to everyone. I played an Eladrin Paladin once who in a backstory ambush lost both an Arm and a Leg. Healing spells like these didn't work on her as while she had to use prosthetics while she was fulfilling her oaths of Vengeance she didn't consider herself physically broken
There's so much you can do with that!
I run Savage Worlds (currently Savage Pathfinder), which not only has rules for limb disability but also rules for wheelchairs. That being said, if a PC in my game lost the use of their legs and was denied access to restorative magic or anything else other than a wheelchair for mobility (my personal go-to would probably be a ring of flying), their player would howl like a raging werewolf about it.
A ring of flying would eat up an item slot, but being able to fly at will is a pretty damn good ability in and of itself, and would not likely be viewed as a “waste of a slot”. I’ve never seen anyone actually play a character who couldn’t walk on their own but used flight like this instead, but I *have* seen a few PCs who were blind but finagled blindsight one way or another.
the outrage of wheelchair minis upset ppl more than release of dungeon dogs
on the plus side, combat wheelchair
COMBAT WHEELCHAIR!!!!!
such a weird set of reactions... I grew up playing D&D with whoever I could get. Fun is fun, and games are games. Including otherwise odd-sounding things into a game seems like a chance to extend imagination. Now, this is not D&D but one of the tragic hero/villain characters in Vernor Vinge's "A Fire in the Deep" were called Skroderiders who were multi-tendril and high-tech wheelchair bound. The wheelchair in the story does provide challenges but doesn't limit the importance of these characters in any way.
Also, I mean, thinking of imaginative play... having someone who is disabled can pose additional puzzles. Even if the dungeon itself isn't wheelchair friendly place. How about some funny and caring way the wheelchair bound person works *with* their party and their party actively *supports* aiding them because they are valued...
"isn't that why we nerd's play D&D in the first place" -- yuuuup... traditionally game play has that power, to basically make barriers to entry on any number of activities at least become transparent if not vanish altogether. Last I checked D&D was not only nerdy but rooted firmly in counter-culture and the somewhat transcendentalist idea of imagination transcending reality. This kind of backlash (SJW backlash or POC backlash or, christ, disability backlash -- something all groups absolutely share) has made it hard to do literary, film, and game analysis and criticism. I find that I want to break apart how bad a story is but already there is a ton of noise with other people screaming that it's "woke". OK, maybe there's something to that but man, I hate having to feel like the opinions I value least are in any way allied with my own especially when I'm literally trying to look at a piece as it stands. I'm happy to find where I can learn about hidden bias, though, so I guess... thanks anti-SJW people?
I've been binging all your video's. I really hope your views blow up soon.
There are plenty of other reasons a dungeon could have ramps in lieu of stairs. It could have been built by yuan-ti, or it could have been a construction site for a colossal pyramid or tomb, or a refinery, or something like that.
Pathfinder2e: Do you want your wheelchair normal or magical? Yes, spiked wheels are in complect. We are no the barbarians
That last point though 👏🏻
Not to mention that ramps would be useful and common as they were for carrying cargo etc
This guy delivers amazing content! It's wild how good it is!
As a wheelchair user with EDS and a longtime player and DM, thank you for this video. Here's the thing I don't think these redditors understand: even if you ignore all of your fantastic and logical arguments, even if you could just "fix" a disabled character and take away their need for a wheelchair, I don't want to have to "fix" them for them to be an awesome kick-ass adventurer. Their ableism is so clear in the fact that they assume that I would see an able bodied character as the obvious choice.
It's also easier to move heavy equipment on a ramp
I'm just imagining a party of dnd characters cancelling Aserak for making the tomb of horrors "ableist" XD
I could think of a dozen reason to use for violations of ada regulations....
Went through ToH with a group last night and, can confirm, there is a ramp! It just... goes down into a pit of lava.... but they do have a ramp! What a considerate fellow!
i dont mean to be off topic but does someone know of a way to log back into an Instagram account?
I stupidly lost my account password. I would love any help you can offer me.
@Krew Peter Instablaster ;)
@Malachi Oakley thanks for your reply. I got to the site through google and im waiting for the hacking stuff now.
Takes quite some time so I will reply here later with my results.
As a DM one of my fave bad guys was Korvus the Red Dragon. A legendary red dragon that was obsessed with marrying different powerful creatures, like giants, and then collecting stuff like their hair and blood to use in a modified version of the clone spell to create new and powerful children mixed of himself and this other being. He was obsessed with having this legendary legacy of a powerful child and the power, but more importantly the status that would come with it. He did not love anyone he married, he just married for power and saw marriage as a way to expand his land and power. IE. He just did it cause he felt it made him seem better. The character was an allegory of an asexual person staying in the closet and 'acting' straight and how horrible that can be. As an asexual/mostly aromantic man that was in the closet for far to long and did date only to fit in this was a character I needed to vent about that part of my life. Did my party complain that I had a dragon symbolic of asexual closet issues being the main bad? Nope, they loved it cause it was a unique bad guy that was an ancient red dragon that had half dragon/giants working for him and that's scary as Hell! Being a DM is a form of story telling and that is SUPPOSED to be personal and when you draw from yourself you make better stories that are more real. It's just how story telling works.
Does a Warriors scars disappear when they are resurrected? Same energy.
While I haven't really played DnD outside of CRPGs, you can still see some of these things being said on those forums when things like any type of inclusivity appears.
They go wish or spell or god/dess(es) exists, so it's stupid that X is in. Which to me, the same argument kinda goes the same way too. I can throw a fireball or ask my god/dess for help or even bend reality yet YOU draw the line at wheelchairs/trans/whatever minority? The fact that I'm literally turning poop into a ball of flame is not what's breaking your immersion but the MERE EXISTENCE of a minority shatters the world? Wild and just bigotry.
I don’t normally comment in UA-cam… but you almost make me want to start DMing again!
For me, it just depends on the dungeon.
If the person needs a wheelchair, is a part of scalykind, or such.
If it used to be a part of regular structures (Example: a library that is now used as a lab).
Oh no! The dungeon is used for character development of the character that built it! Ya, all dungeons are supposed to work that way. A Beholder is going to make a dungeon with tunnels and ways to fly over people's heads, a Lich is going to make a dungeon close by to a place where they can get dead bodies from with ease. And a wizard that can't walk is going to have a dungeon with ramps. Making your dungeon reflect your main bad is DM stuff 101. If you don't do it you don't DM well and that's a fact.
Why does anyone care about someone putting a wheelchair in their adventure? Why does this become an issue? The fact that you have tried to explain why there is a logical reason shouldn't even be needed. People can do what they want in their D&D world. My Wheelchair can be pulled by a 100 racing snails that sing 'My Ding-a-Ling'. That's going to happen now and no one can do anything about it..
Real dungeon master talk right here.
Fantastic video. You hit the nail on the head multiple times. Thank you for making such great videos.
Well done, though I hurt when you threw down the fifty years of D&D, but only because my over thirty years of playing made me feel old when you said that.
It keeps you young. I mean. I've been playing over 25 years, so... yeah...
Wheelchair-accessible design often just makes the most sense, and elevators are a very easy thing to add to fantasy, at least to me. Of course the dungeon has ramps, not everyone in there has legs. Of course that building has elevators, they have graviturgy mages. Adds accessibility and flavor.
Good video, as always.
I was thinking, haven’t disabled people existed before our species of people existed? An accessible dungeon could work well for any world since there’s always going to be amputees or people missing limbs from birth.
More reasons an accessible dungeon would make sense:
-Designer is disabled
-Designer belongs to a species that would better benefit from stairs
-Designer intends to accommodate many species in their dungeon
-Designer intends to wheel things in with carts, like statues or wealth or traps
-Need to frequently transport heavy loads
-Built in an artificial cave, where hollowing out stone is time consuming, expensive, and better done all on one level or with the assistance of lifts
-Owner has a good benefits programs and anyone disabled in combat gets free accommodations in the spare rooms of the dungeon
-Owner is immortal or otherwise long-lived and would find it more attractive to occasionally repair the flat ground rather than do the same with the stairs, which will wear faster and get more dangerous as they do (bad if you intend to use your own dungeon)
-Owner is a sufficiently high level spell caster that could simply populate their dungeons with portals and magic elevators, where placing stairs would actually be more time consuming and less effective
As commentary on the players making comments: part of the issue is that, as players, we can talk about the capabilities a D&D world COULD have without ever getting into a specific world. It leads to a massive disconnect between "what could be" & "what is actually".
The Wish spell is the easy example. We can learn the Wish spell is a thing and learn its ins-n-outs within a few seconds of grabbing a copy of the PHB, and we can spend literal years worth of time discussing how it can be used/achieved with thousands of people across thousands of diverse communities. Meanwhile, in a game world, it might be the case that the world doesn't have access to any but the lowest grade of magic. "But it's D&D! Why wouldn't it be a high-magic setting when everything in the books describes it as high magic?"
And thus goes the disconnect.
(As to your final points: Negatively Bias + Confirmation Bias + dealing with politics & the media constantly. "Shoved down our throats" more often means that the person never has a chance where they can relax or do something without the topic being brought up in some way/shape/form, whether they agree with it or not. Sure, it might only be this one instance of it happening during D&D, but they've also been hearing the same sort of thing every few minutes - from commercials & commentators - as they watch TV, listen to the radio, browse the internet or go outside & see billboards/posters. It gets tiring, & people lose patience whether or not they agree with the points these things bring up).
a wheelchair accessible dungeon is a Gelatinous Cube accessible dungeon.
As a GM with EDS: There i basically nothing in my setting that can "cure" EDS or restore the ability to walk if that is lost due to EDS, short of something like wish/miracle ... and those being level 9 means there's .... maybe a few thousand NCPs in the entire world who even *could* cast them. If they had the material component.
Maybe a dozen or so of them *would* cast it for you, if you went to them with the material components and a pile of money already. If you could find them.
So... it's entirely reasonable that a wizard building a tower/dungeon might design it to be accessible, if that's something that they care about.
Honestly an ancient wizard in a levitating chair would be a neat npc or villain.
People getting mad over D&D dungeons having a "wheelchair accessible" dungeon is such sad indicator of the current human condition.
Also part of me kinda wish they had ideas for magic prosthetics.
Like using shape water or magic tree branch for missing limbs.
I mean fantasy has it but DnD lacks it maybe due to lack of OFFICIAL limb damage mechanic (Dm book has it but maybe players' disdain for getting their character's limbs amputated and I only see that with Warhammer Fantasy).
Accessibility is complicated in a dungeon, because i think a dungeon shouldn't always be accessible AT ALL. Dungeons should sometimes have sheer cliffs, 10 metre long collapsed tunnels and superheated lava rooms. Like, my favorite kinds of games involve giving the players challenges you don't know how they'll solve, and letting them surprise you with solutions. Some of these players have teleportation, or are plasmoids, or could go on a completely new quest to befriend an umber hulk; that's up to them to figure out.
However I hard agree with the idea that some owners of dungeons would absolutely design them with wheels in mind. That just makes sense!
Question: why you would build not just rumps, but stairs all together, if you digging mines things? Just dig curved floors that seamlessly transition between floor levels.
And, you know, just because the character transitioned via magical means doesn't make them... Not trans, so, you know.
Wont lie. At first seeing the title i was thinking. Thats a qeird thing ro complain about. Then got me thinking. Why does Count Strahd have an elevator. The dude can phase through walls and floors. Then reminded me its a trap.
When you read the first complaint i was thinking... Yeah, it does seem weird that if theres so much magic then why use a chair, but you're totally right. That only accounts for very high fantasy with magic everywhere.
For me i run dark fantasy, using grim hollow a lot. Theres not a lot of magic. Clerics and Healing magic is very rare so for my world, I'd definitely have more wheel chaired adventurers or npcs than i would have artificer mech suits.
Also i want to make one complaint. You make a bit deal about the wish spell for transitioning or regeneration for leg improvement. I think you overestimate its cost. Hell. Its still cheaper than the american healthcare system. XD
P.S. just want to say, fairly new. Came from indestructeboy's channel. Enjoy your content.
I don't imagine it as necessarily being the singular owner of the dungeon. Anyone who owns a dungeon is very likely to have a substantial number of minions. If one of the people who are going to be using the place uses a wheelchair, I would expect it to be more likely to be one of the many high-value minions than to be the one-and-only top boss, just because there are more of them. For that matter, who says that the dungeon even had a singular owner at the time the ramps were installed? It might have belonged to an organization or a state.
Great video! I could imagine a mage making a Golem to push their wheelchair/throne around just for being able to show what power they have. Heck, the only real question about creating such a dungeon is "why not", because even creating a dungeon like this is a bit of a "look what i can do" thing so why wouldn't a wizard create something most would not even think of? Isn't that the POINT of such a dungeon? It could also just have been to make it easy to move cages with monsters, artefacts or whatever around if that fits the DMs idea of what the dungeon is about. It's fantasy, why NOT have it this way.
I think if you have a funhouse dungeon meant to essentially be inspired by the Winchester House and it's the creation of an insane wizard who can fly everywhere without even needing to spend spell slots, definitely don't feel pressured to make every part of it wheelchair accessible.
But making there be ramps and 2-way teleportation gates in a dungeon instead of stairs isn't a worldbuilding sin either. It just depends on who built it and why.
If someone is in a wheelchair as a pc, I'm curious how that would be mechanically.
As a plus, they'd be immune to being tripped. However, they'd need both hands available in order to move, not to mention maintenance costs.
Here is the 5e combat wheelchair by mustang art. t.co/b63vxwICcF
i just wanna say i am not even wheelchair bound but i would totally put ramps in my dungeons. that way i could skate around and drag carts up or down levels without issue.
About the only spell that might fix such ailments would be true polymorph. But that's super high level...and then *they* wouldn't be *them*.
Also did no one consider that the dungeon owner may be an illithid or warlock with the levitation boon, who finds ramps more practically designed then stairs? Some of these whiners have no imagination stg
Ironically, many moons ago I ran an entire D&D game that was technically wheel-chair accessible. I say technically because it wasn't intended as such. I was doing a John Carter of Mars game. Apparently, according to Burroughs, there are no stairs on Barsoom. Instead, Burroughs only describes ramps and, occasionally, ladders. So, when I was creating the game I copied this piece of flavor over. In a similar manner, I am not convinced that Burroughs was intentionally being inclusive. I think he was just trying differentiate his stuff from his competitors in large and small ways.
But back to the issue. Who cares if this dungeon is wheel-chair accessible? Why is that such a problem? An evil wizard who uses a wheelchair, and subsequently made their dungeon/home accessible makes perfect sense. And the fact that the evil villain is a wizard in a wheelchair just makes that character more interesting to me.
I do have questions, though. I never bought Candlekeep Mysteries so I have never encountered this dungeon. What level is the adventure? Is this a high level wizard? If they are sufficiently high enough level to cast the referenced spells - then how long have they lived in this location? If they made it accessible before they could cast such a high level spell why would you assume they would move to a new dungeon after eliminating the need for accessibility? They would have to find a new location, build a new dungeon, and then move all their stuff to that new location. Wouldn't it be easier and make more sense to simply stay in the same house?
Thinking about it, to me "dungeon" is where it feels weird. I don't hang out in TTRPG spaces enough that it's just become part of my everyday jargon, so all the locations that "dungeon" evokes in my mind feel like a non-sequitur to anything relating to wheelchairs. To a lesser extent, "accessible" brings to mind widely-implemented regulations more than personal customization of a place or incidental compatibility (e.g. choosing an existing structure that happens to work over retrofitting a space).
If other people feel similar word associations, then, the core issue is that the name was almost purpose-chosen* to maximize polarization. I'm not surprised that it's what would go viral on social media, get seen by the most people long before they look at the dungeon itself, including to groups that'd never learn of it otherwise, and ultimately get many negative responses.
(*Probably chosen by memetic natural selection for sparking the most outrage, thus getting re-shared by countless people both for and against in a feedback loop, rather than chosen by a single human.)
I can see one reason why some mad wizard wouldn't put ramps in their dungeon - dungeons are underground and generally quite damp. And a lovely home for moss. Stone ramp+damp+moss/lichen=pain. I speak from real life experience on that one.
But if you want ramps in your game - it's your game. Go for it. Maybe the wizard created a subspecies of rust-monster that eats moss and slime and left it wandering to keep the place clean and tidy. Maybe there's a special type of rock carving that never clogs up so there's always grip. Maybe they just used really really long ramps with a very gentle and manageable incline. Lots of ways you can have ramps if you want them.
The writer had mentioned yuan ti. Snake people wouldn't use stairs.
@@LegalKimchi "Yuan-ti buildings were often circular. In place of staircases, they often had ramps or poles instead, since most of them could slither and many of them could climb" Forgotten Realms Wiki.
I forgot about the Yuan Ti but in my defense I've been mainly a Runequest/Call of Cthulhu player for years at this point.
This is just perfect. Hope you make an update about this. People were complaining for nothing. 3 ramps in a HUGE dungeon and is a 13th Level Adventure. FFS...
I think that a wheelchair in D&D breaks immersion. But, so do dinosaurs. So, I don't play with dinosaurs. I probably wouldn't use a wheelchair character, but I wouldn't be opposed to it if my characters wanted to use one either. A wheelchair set up like a Mad Max car does sound pretty awesome...
I think magical lifts sounds cool.... in my mind Ogres aren't going up the stairs. They will get around with ramps or lifts. And what evil megalomaniac wouldn't want a magical escalator?
I think the bigger problem a lot of vocal detractors are having is that they made this a selling point of the book. It has often promoted based on it's diversity of writers... rather than the work itself. After all, I haven't heard yet anything about who is writing the new Ravenloft guide, or what youtube channel they appear on.
And some people are just jerks and crave attention. So, there's that.
A wheelchair is where you draw the line? Not at artificers and constructs though?
I wasn't even aware about this topic. Well... in the end, the only thing that matters for me is the overall implementation of "something" in a fantasy-setting. If something is only "implemented for the sake of being implemented" and without any actual context or connections to the surrounding world (internal world logic is a thing)... that could be considered bad writing/implementation. Everything should have some context, why it is the way it is. Especially in a fantasy-setting where the author has full control over explanations, internal logic and design etc pp.
I also agree with the basics that a fantasy setting does not necessarily need to reflect the "real world" in any shape, form or function. As we are bound to the real world and only know "the real world" from start, its kinda inevitable that at some point in time, even while writing a fantasy-world, we start to implement things we know from the real world. At the same time, i also agree that some implementations could inspire people - thats fine. As long as.... *points above* its in some form of context with the internal logic of the world and design.
Greetings from germany and thanks for your insight. Sorry for my crippled english.
Greeks did it for people with canes. I'm now sold!
i did see a video about Ancient disabilities and that convinced me to add "Wheelchair" Accessibility in to dungeons
This dungeon sounds pretty cool and frankly like it would be very useful for moving in all the equipment for all of those traps and all of that building material.
I have dragons that carry entire huge groups of power armor wearing artificer soldiers. You can fly up really really high, then glide down to the drop height in the dark of night, with the soldiers clinging onto a scaffolding on the bottom of the dragon who can then release and fall down to near the ground and then cast feather fall to stop the descent.
Then they can sprint at well over 80' per round or 160' per full round even as much as 360 or 720 feet per full round with magic items.
These soldiers can then use autoloading heavy crossbows and using spells such as magic missile or firebolt or burning hands or lighting lure or pyrotechnics to stun and then dispatch an entire enemy base.
I am not upset, but I have one thought to share about (yeah, I know, it's an old video). Let's say I am a ancient wizard with damaged legs. Or not. Either way, it is not very logic to make a dungeon accessible, because the whole point of the dungeon is to be not accessible or even being a death trap for outsiders and intruders.
Of course it depends on the dungeon. "Dungeon" is also a word with many possibile meanings.
But if I was a dungeon lord, dungeon owner or whatever and the dungeon is like the fortress I use to hide, I would probably find another way to move outside.
For exemple: minions monsters might include humanoid ones.
Many of them are very strong: not all of them are very smart, but they are good enough to carry around a person on their shoulder or in their arms.
Yyyyyyeah!!!!!!!!!! It is basically Blaster from Mad Max, isn't it/he/she/they?
So what?
I am an evil dude, wizard or not, I can be evil enough to have a monster minion or slave to carry me around.
Or maybe we are, somehow, friends and this creature is helping me because, as said, we are friends, maybe more than friends I don't know...
Or perhaps, the character might use some kind of steed. A giant spider maybe: they walk on every ground, even on the roof if necessary.
There is also the transmutation solution: if my body doesn't work, I change it in another form. But of course there are many possible downsizes on that solution. Personally I wouldn't mind becoming an half lovecraftian monstruosity if I can walk, see, talk again.
Still: session zero all the way.
Again, an absolutely wonderful video! I laughed very hard when you posted your comme t about going on line at the beginning. Very good argument, counselor.
Just found this guy's channel last night.
I love this guy!
My fingers hurt from clicking and my ears are ringing from "Yaaaaaas"
But also you gotta tell us how you DON'T get lens glare whilst filming. Wtf are you, a level 17 wizard?
Great video as always. GG
i have 2 soft box lights, one each positioned to the far left and right of me, and they are very bright. that way, i can turn my head anywhere but the far left or right and there isn't a reflection.
That ending statement 🤣🤣
I admit it. I was wrong about this. You changed my mind with this video. For the record, I DO get tired of diversity and inclusion getting shoved down our throats. But after more consideration, I realize that this is not it. I may even buy the book now! I was like you, and making many assumption just based on what I HEARD about it and not the fact that, hey, there's 17 modules here and one of them is just being different and making an atempt at making people with disabilities happy and all for funsies. Which is what this game is all about.
I think you make good points and IMO wheelchairs are ok in this setting but expecting people to go on adventure and have friendly enviroments for them is kinda crazy, can be but is not a must
Late to the party. That is fascinating about wheelchairs. Ramps made sense before wheelchairs existed and ramps will makes sense in the future when that technology is replaced with something more effective.
Turns out the inclined plane is one of the basic machines human beings invented or discovered and are a really reliable way of going from a lower place to a higher place or vice versa.
Old and busted people have always existed so even the most narrow-minded of the ancients knew they had to do something if they wanted old people to come in and out of a place on their own.
Human beings without independently or irregularly capable bodies have been around since forever, they've usually had relatives or friends to get them mobility. As late as 2000 years ago you have a story in the Christian gospels about a guy who is not capable of walking and he has friends that carry him on a pallet. There is no elevator in the building so his friends take him up to the roof, tear open the hole and a lower him in on ropes. Regardless of whether it's just a story, this writing proves that people with access issues were around for a long time.
Instead of having to talk about people being ignorant jerks on the internet, I wish we could instead have a discussion about how incredibly poor a mundane wheelchair is on irregular terrain and how stealth on that terrain in a chair is absurd. Let's talk about how someone in a chair clearly suffers a major inherent mobility penalty to AC. And their dex save suffers a major inherent penalty for any save requiring them to move their body out of the way. -4 penalty is not unreasonable, and exceptional people will have high dex scores and develop heroically to offset this. This would have been productive criticism and useful. Or we can talk about how narrow stairwells are useful as a deterrent to military assault, and likely to be preferred for explicitly defensive structures even though ramp is more reasonable. You can also have a winch and pulley system for hauling things up vertical shafts. Maybe the same place a stairwell is. A block tackle winch pulley crane type apparatus makes sense in many places which could be co-opted to solve a stair issue. You could even have no stairs between levels and the only access through a primitive crane or elevator that the heroes have to assemble or operate and treat it as a puzzle.
It is always correct to be upset with the Wizzers because they are Hasbro's tool. Nothing happens at that company unless it preserves or expands sales, or cuts costs.
Wait...if the BBEG is wheelchair bound...couldnt the adventurer party just...you know...jump him when he try to use the ramp?Sound devious but its the BBEG essentialy pointing out his potential weak point...they should at least cast illusion magic on the ramp or something.
Interesting points.
Check your levels! Loud beeps there.
Very true. It's a one man show and I'm still learning on the sound editing part. Thank you!
Dude, an artificer would make a really amazing wheelchair.
you do great videos, thanks. just found your channel today.
This video is getting kinda old so me commenting is a smidgen late but as I'm watching it: I don't think in most settings I'd /EVER/ think 'Damn my legs don't work. Time to CUT THEM OFF and replace them with artificial ones'. Even in a sci-fi setting that is some EXTREME behavior.
The comments you reply to here are partially vile but damn, feeling the full force of a law degree coming down on a Culture War should-be-non-issue felt really satisfying.
You are brilliant, and thank you for all that you're doing.
"A high-level wizard could do it once after a long rest. Don't see why you need accomodations!"
Why have stairs if the game has flight? Just put an arrow on the wall indicating that 20 feet above you is the next door.
Why have anything if you "have" WISH?
17th level wizard is on-par with gods. Nobody should consider "ascension to godhood" to be a go-to solution to their mild personal difficulties.
For eds or a birth defect wish is the spell you need or true polymorph.
I don't like the phrase "The internet is rough", or any similar. We don't realize that in a way, we are guilting a tool for their users. The problem is the people who are intolerant with the others. The one who thinks that "when is not in the way I knowledge before" or liked or agree with, it's get fuzzied when see someone or something different from him or what he knows.