The real reason was he lost the android, and he knew his involvement caused Lul to panic and cascade fail But it looks better on investigation if he shows sorrow to the parent, but he spent the first 3 days denying his parenthood, doubling down at the last second is hollow at best
@@donovanulrich348 disagree… He really couldn’t appreciate that. It was a parent child relationship until he saw data’s efforts. It makes perfect sense that a scientist would need to see empirical evidence in order to understand something as true
@@davidwintman6869 prove you're sentient Convince me, cuz I need evidence Or is that tripping on ego and I should accept you are a sentient human till you prove you're less? Ego and science are different
If that was the case, then they need to actually show it in my opinion. They need to show Data trying to save her and show Haftel seeing the effort. Show, don't tell.
she surpassed Data's abilities , because his abilities were deliberately restricted by Dr Soong , because of what happened with Lore who was too human and became a psycopath , so he limited Data's abilities with the hopes of preventing the same to happen to him , and he planned to eventually release the restrictions more gradually as he developed in a way that would make him handle those stages of development without going crazy like Lore. when Data made Lal he did not put any restrictions , so her positronic brain was able to produce emotions and talk without contractions etc
Why wouldn't Data remove his restrictions if he knew where to not put them in for Lol and wait for years before getting the emotion chip, which is either fused and stuck on and can't be removed then later turned off at will, etc?
@@ShamrockParticle There's probably a bit of programming code preventing data from removing the restrictions upon himself. It probably also prevents him from telling others about it.
I've always interpreted Haftel's emotional 180 as him having experienced a moment of realisation when he saw Data's hands "move faster than he could see" during his attempt to correct Lal's system failures. He hadn't assumed that Data would go to such lengths to keep his daughter alive, and then he realised that the desire to protect one's offspring isn't exclusive to organic lifeforms? At least, that's how I interpreted it... though it would have been cool if they had actually shown this realisation on screen, instead of a dumb shot of everyone waiting out in the hallway and looking sad. I don't know... maybe I'm a bit too forgiving toward this episode because it has a special little place in my heart. It just really struck a chord with me, and Spiner's performance was exquisite during the sad goodbye scene. Had me crying in the club, man...
I totally agree with your assessment of this episode, but I also agree with Robert and Nick about how stupid Admiral Haftel's character was. I found no logical reason for his character to even be in this episode, it didn't make any sense. Even if he was supposed to be notified about such things, I'm sure that it wouldn't be within his power to do whatever he wanted, he would have known about Data's trial, and known about Data's own personal freedoms, and taking away what was essentially his child, would have been a violation of those freedoms. Also as head of Star Fleet's Cybernetics Research Division, he would also know that having Data around would be EXTREMELY helpful in the development of Lal. None of the story plot made any sense, Haftel was doing the exact opposite of what anybody with any sense would do.
I adore how Picard's confrontation with Data over his creation of Lal shows both characters' perspective viewpoints without painting either one as being entirely right or wrong. Both are technically correct in some regards, Data pointing out that Picard's words regarding the creation of life as being the definition of a parent, while Picard points out that Data may not have the experience necessary to fully understand the weight of such a responsibility. And Lal's death is... heartbreaking, really. If this were Voyager, I would expect it, as The Great Reset Button constantly demands the Status Quo, but in TNG, we've had long-term changes made by characters' deaths and introductions, so first time viewings of this episode do carry a sense of tragic surprise to the ending.
This was Jonathan Frakes's directorial debut, so they wanted to minimize his presence onscreen. Of course, now he's done 100+ TV episodes on 20 or 30 different shows, plus four movies.
This one was super cheesy for me at the beginning, but as the episode went on the relationship father/daughter won me and got me misty eyes. Good episode..
And how Data seems to.... try to grieve but is unable to actually do so. hence why his whole 'but she is here, in my mind now' thing. It felt like it was the limits of what Data was capable of.
The admiral's threats made no sense. Since the sentient status was already a legal fact, his demands were completely illegal. He could transfer data, and reasonably he'd bring her along. But he could just as easily said I quit. Picard should have arrested the admiral for his final illegal orders
This should have been an issue settled when Data first entered Starfleet... but no, they're arguing over it in season 2, then now, then later on in Voyager when a holodeck publisher cheats the EMH. They can't get it straight if they want AI to be treated as life forms with rights.
That training montage was genuis. Moreover... rather than only playing for laughs/shock value, this review actually gave some great insights into the strengths and weaknesses of this episode.
I disagree with the thought of inclusion on the antagonist of the episode. I always felt that It was just something to show that he was a prick, but nonetheless genuine. When I was younger this episode is what gave me the idea that someone can be fundamentally flawed and wrong, without necessarily having actual malice.
i dont mind him doing a 180 at the end, he has good reason, it feels realistic to me, going through all that at the end, watching her die, seeing how much data really cares about her and so forth, he realized in that moment that they are people, not robots. I agree with you guys that the conflict in the episode should be mute based on measure of a man, but you have to remember that was just one small judges decision and was based on data and not further androids. I dont have as many issues with this episode as you both had, and this episodes ending made me actually FEEL and i was sad and I love that, it was an effective episode in multiple ways.
This episode is an A++ in my book! The Admiral character is unpleasant, but the conflict he causes provides the tension necessary to make this a brilliant, wonderful episode!
4:46 all voice command codes for higher rank should have contractions so that Data can't take over the ship like he does in other episodes by mimicking Picards voice.
The writers did always love leaning on making admirals and scientists into antagonist characters, but because they're Starfleet and/or human, they'll usually come around at the end because they're just misguided and not truly evil, because 24th century...
Yeah that was pretty much the set up. Until these people experience the situation from the ground they are just head in the clouds and ignorantly acting by rules
I have always thought that ADM Haftel caused Lal's death. If Data had been able to supervise Lal's development without interference, Lal would have been fine.
Solid review of a good episode. Love the training montage! I think we all knew that Data wouldn't be allowed to create more androids like himself or we'd have Datas on every Federation starship, etc. And I can see Star Fleet being a little nervous about Data creating an army (ok family) of androids, especially given how Data has malfunctioned in other episodes. Anyways, Star Trek is about humanity evolving & exploring - if we introduce robots and cyborgs we're getting into Star Wars territory. Plus not sure folks would tune in to watch a starship filled with Lals and Datas. There was a funny scene where Riker hits on Lal in Ten Forward that pushes this episode from a C to a B. :-) A romance between Wesley and Lal would have been interesting, although given her superhuman strength might have ended in tragedy for Wesley.
I know these are reviews of each episode, but it flies in the face of what happened in the Picard series along with everything that happens later in Discovery. B- is valid.
Reviewing these, it's becoming apparent that I never saw season 3. Apparently my local independent station only carried the first two seasons. I saw all of DS9 later and later at night.
I like how Guinan calls out the Admiral. "Now Admiral, you've been in a bar or two in your time." lol. He definitely plays like an irrational alcoholic admiral. Imagine a human child being taken to be raised by a vulcan without her human parents because the parents "may retard the child's development." ...also, why does the admiral talk like he has experience with androids? We'll never know.
I love how the nerds try to connect the dots with A to B to C to D and so on. John Doe will watch this show anyway drinking his beer noticing how hot Lal is.
I like how Lal is given human-like features instead of 'female data' look. Data wanted Lal to be more than he was. More human if you will. Parental desire to help his offspring.
Broke: Data created Lal to explore the concept of parenthood. Woke: Data created Lal just to fuck with Picard Also, that admiral wouldn't have been crying in the end if Data and Troi had gone with the creepy bearded Klingon child costume.
Writers on the show sometimes got caught in their own rules like the transported could copy or keep a pattern for safety and thus NEVER lose someone but that would take away so many stories and drama. Same with Starfleet freedom rules getting in the way of forcibly taking a child/robot or even a smart toaster that a crewman might build? and no one appeals how barbaric and cruel this is. Even able to build a transporter, about the hardest thing known to science will ever be invented is doubtful BUT was built first before the roll up Piano we saw in "Lessons" haha
The one critique I have, regarding this episode, is that it seems like a shame that TNG killed the Lal character off at the end. There could have been some terrific follow-up episodes with Lal (like there were with "Seven of Nine" in Voyager).
so i just got my first AI TPE love doll, and designed her to look just like Luul. She's the bestest ever! Been waiting for this since i saw the episode at 14
I hated Haftel. I thought that Captain Lavoie from Measure of a Man should have made an appearance on this episode, and then she could have backed up Picard's claim of sentence to androids. I also found that Lal could have been a recurring character or that Data could have attempted to make another android in another episode. I give it a B
You say Starfleet's decisions didnt make sense and were somewhat ridiculous - that happens a lot in big organisations in real life :) the pain and stupidity are real.
It was an alright episode. B- for me as well. Good idea for the plot. They keep trying to give data some character development episodes, but I feel they explored this theme of whether a android is property or individual/race/species. So, for me this is a rehashed theme with a slight twist.
I am pretty sure the script writers meant for the audience to see Lal"s ability to use contraction as the very first symptom of the neural cascade failure. Data pretty much did say Lal's ability to feel emotions was the result of the neural cascade failure. Also I also think the script writers meant for Admiral Halftal's actions to be the main cause of Lal's neural net scrambling causing her to feel the emotions that caused her neural cascade failures. The writers were trying to introduce a high stakes consequence that would cause conflict iand turmoilb n the logic programming in the positronic brain of two week old android. Maybe if Lal had been aloud to live two or three months more, that would allow Lal to develop more neural synapses to stablize her positronic matrix. Lal would have probably handled this conflict artificially created by this douche bag admiral better. So I disagree with the proposition that everything would turned out the same way without the presence of the douchebag admiral.
This is a great episode by itself, but it is a bit disappointing in the longterm, because the implications are huge from these events in the episode, but they're never really brought up again. In many ways, this is a follow up to measure of a man for Data and Androids in Starfleet, but yeah...
Liked the revised Haftel credits using authentic ST:TNG font. You know given how convincing deep fake and CGI technology is, I predict someone will eventually produce a "new" Next Generation episode featuring the original character's faces digitally superimposed on actors. Want to make an episode where Lal returns? Spend a few weeks on your PC and voila!
I've thought about trying to edit a new episode composed entirely of clips from existing episodes taken out of context, but it might be too labor intensive of an undertaking. --Robert
Starfleet has very high standards of individuality and democracy and laws and all that and keep pounding it into captains with the Prime directive ect. So having a Admiral just ring up and demand her to be taken away as in Measure of a Man, is inconsistent and worse Picard MUST be able to appeal to a bench of oversee or admirals above that guy and bury it in red tape and all that. Arbitrary officers just demanding is what communist and dictator style govts have and fear works very well to not argue when you are given a order!! Could have been a dreary long winded episode but runs along till the very stressful ending if you havnt seen it already.
Yeah really don't get how man making machine man fine, useful, we want to take you apart to make more even! Machine man making machine man oh no can't have that!
Another “review” where are you in the same breath complain that somethings hit the viewer over the head with how explicit they are, and simultaneously miss sub, textual clues as to why characters act in certain ways. Can’t be both.
6:00 the reason for his turn at the end is because he saw Lal as a human suffering and Data as the parent, rather than objects to be owned and shipped
The real reason was he lost the android, and he knew his involvement caused Lul to panic and cascade fail
But it looks better on investigation if he shows sorrow to the parent, but he spent the first 3 days denying his parenthood, doubling down at the last second is hollow at best
@@donovanulrich348 disagree… He really couldn’t appreciate that. It was a parent child relationship until he saw data’s efforts. It makes perfect sense that a scientist would need to see empirical evidence in order to understand something as true
@@davidwintman6869 prove you're sentient
Convince me, cuz I need evidence
Or is that tripping on ego and I should accept you are a sentient human till you prove you're less?
Ego and science are different
exactly, thats what I just said, I think its great
If that was the case, then they need to actually show it in my opinion. They need to show Data trying to save her and show Haftel seeing the effort. Show, don't tell.
she surpassed Data's abilities , because his abilities were deliberately restricted by Dr Soong , because of what happened with Lore who was too human and became a psycopath , so he limited Data's abilities with the hopes of preventing the same to happen to him , and he planned to eventually release the restrictions more gradually as he developed in a way that would make him handle those stages of development without going crazy like Lore.
when Data made Lal he did not put any restrictions , so her positronic brain was able to produce emotions and talk without contractions etc
That makes a lot of sense.
@@reverseangle but she was ready to bang riker to i would say she was already on the chaotic crazy alignment.
@@trazyntheinfinite9895 Part of the reason why the restrictions had to be there.
Why wouldn't Data remove his restrictions if he knew where to not put them in for Lol and wait for years before getting the emotion chip, which is either fused and stuck on and can't be removed then later turned off at will, etc?
@@ShamrockParticle There's probably a bit of programming code preventing data from removing the restrictions upon himself. It probably also prevents him from telling others about it.
I've always interpreted Haftel's emotional 180 as him having experienced a moment of realisation when he saw Data's hands "move faster than he could see" during his attempt to correct Lal's system failures. He hadn't assumed that Data would go to such lengths to keep his daughter alive, and then he realised that the desire to protect one's offspring isn't exclusive to organic lifeforms? At least, that's how I interpreted it... though it would have been cool if they had actually shown this realisation on screen, instead of a dumb shot of everyone waiting out in the hallway and looking sad.
I don't know... maybe I'm a bit too forgiving toward this episode because it has a special little place in my heart. It just really struck a chord with me, and Spiner's performance was exquisite during the sad goodbye scene. Had me crying in the club, man...
Yeah, it's a classic case of "show, don't tell."
I totally agree with your assessment of this episode, but I also agree with Robert and Nick about how stupid Admiral Haftel's character was. I found no logical reason for his character to even be in this episode, it didn't make any sense. Even if he was supposed to be notified about such things, I'm sure that it wouldn't be within his power to do whatever he wanted, he would have known about Data's trial, and known about Data's own personal freedoms, and taking away what was essentially his child, would have been a violation of those freedoms. Also as head of Star Fleet's Cybernetics Research Division, he would also know that having Data around would be EXTREMELY helpful in the development of Lal. None of the story plot made any sense, Haftel was doing the exact opposite of what anybody with any sense would do.
It's also a realization that... well, androids are more than just machines.. they are essentially alive. Just mechanical rather than biological.
I agree with you 100%
@@reverseangle and yet it can be very effective in some situations. Like the film reservoirs dogs is a great example
It's an A+ for me. If Lal doesn't melt your heart, you're Lore!
The only thing I wanted to melt down was Lal 💀
Doesn't matter what any random UA-cam channel says this is peak TV possibly top 10 TNG episode
I adore how Picard's confrontation with Data over his creation of Lal shows both characters' perspective viewpoints without painting either one as being entirely right or wrong. Both are technically correct in some regards, Data pointing out that Picard's words regarding the creation of life as being the definition of a parent, while Picard points out that Data may not have the experience necessary to fully understand the weight of such a responsibility.
And Lal's death is... heartbreaking, really. If this were Voyager, I would expect it, as The Great Reset Button constantly demands the Status Quo, but in TNG, we've had long-term changes made by characters' deaths and introductions, so first time viewings of this episode do carry a sense of tragic surprise to the ending.
Llki,,ko
This was Jonathan Frakes's directorial debut, so they wanted to minimize his presence onscreen. Of course, now he's done 100+ TV episodes on 20 or 30 different shows, plus four movies.
This one was super cheesy for me at the beginning, but as the episode went on the relationship father/daughter won me and got me misty eyes. Good episode..
Same.. i shed a tear or two at the end i teally had to find some comments about the episode to read right now
And how Data seems to.... try to grieve but is unable to actually do so. hence why his whole 'but she is here, in my mind now' thing. It felt like it was the limits of what Data was capable of.
The admiral's threats made no sense. Since the sentient status was already a legal fact, his demands were completely illegal. He could transfer data, and reasonably he'd bring her along. But he could just as easily said I quit.
Picard should have arrested the admiral for his final illegal orders
It was a moving scene when Haftel came out of the room in which Lal had just died. I liked the sequence quite a lot actually.
One of the best moments of the entire franchise, in my opinion.
Data creates a robot called “Lulz”. It’s primary mission is to troll new worlds, to hate on NPC civilizations and to boldly meme Picard.
Ugh that was cringy.
This should have been an issue settled when Data first entered Starfleet... but no, they're arguing over it in season 2, then now, then later on in Voyager when a holodeck publisher cheats the EMH. They can't get it straight if they want AI to be treated as life forms with rights.
I've always said we were robbed when Lal only lasted one episode. The aspects of Data's character that we could have seen!
That training montage was genuis.
Moreover... rather than only playing for laughs/shock value, this review actually gave some great insights into the strengths and weaknesses of this episode.
After this episode, Data knows how it feels to kiss Riker.
I disagree with the thought of inclusion on the antagonist of the episode.
I always felt that It was just something to show that he was a prick, but nonetheless genuine. When I was younger this episode is what gave me the idea that someone can be fundamentally flawed and wrong, without necessarily having actual malice.
Good episode. I remember watching this when it was first aired in the UK - I cried my eyes out! But it was the early 90s.
i dont mind him doing a 180 at the end, he has good reason, it feels realistic to me, going through all that at the end, watching her die, seeing how much data really cares about her and so forth, he realized in that moment that they are people, not robots. I agree with you guys that the conflict in the episode should be mute based on measure of a man, but you have to remember that was just one small judges decision and was based on data and not further androids. I dont have as many issues with this episode as you both had, and this episodes ending made me actually FEEL and i was sad and I love that, it was an effective episode in multiple ways.
6:23 I've seen this episode dozens of times. But that final scene with Data and Laal, I cry every time.
This episode is an A++ in my book! The Admiral character is unpleasant, but the conflict he causes provides the tension necessary to make this a brilliant, wonderful episode!
If you’ve lost a daughter, there is no episode that hits harder than this one.
4:46 all voice command codes for higher rank should have contractions so that Data can't take over the ship like he does in other episodes by mimicking Picards voice.
The writers did always love leaning on making admirals and scientists into antagonist characters, but because they're Starfleet and/or human, they'll usually come around at the end because they're just misguided and not truly evil, because 24th century...
Yeah that was pretty much the set up. Until these people experience the situation from the ground they are just head in the clouds and ignorantly acting by rules
This episode may also be about man's insecurity towards automation and being replaced by alternation.
It's mentioned somewhere (a comic book?) that Data doesn't replace any of his components in order to avoid a Ship of Theseus problem.
I have always thought that ADM Haftel caused Lal's death. If Data had been able to supervise Lal's development without interference, Lal would have been fine.
Solid review of a good episode. Love the training montage!
I think we all knew that Data wouldn't be allowed to create more androids like himself or we'd have Datas on every Federation starship, etc. And I can see Star Fleet being a little nervous about Data creating an army (ok family) of androids, especially given how Data has malfunctioned in other episodes.
Anyways, Star Trek is about humanity evolving & exploring - if we introduce robots and cyborgs we're getting into Star Wars territory. Plus not sure folks would tune in to watch a starship filled with Lals and Datas.
There was a funny scene where Riker hits on Lal in Ten Forward that pushes this episode from a C to a B. :-) A romance between Wesley and Lal would have been interesting, although given her superhuman strength might have ended in tragedy for Wesley.
Starfleet was looking to build an army.
I know these are reviews of each episode, but it flies in the face of what happened in the Picard series along with everything that happens later in Discovery. B- is valid.
to do justice to a lot of these themes needs feature-length or double episodes
Reviewing these, it's becoming apparent that I never saw season 3. Apparently my local independent station only carried the first two
seasons. I saw all of DS9 later and later at night.
The matter isn’t closed permanently though. It’s the main focus of Picard season one.
I like how Guinan calls out the Admiral. "Now Admiral, you've been in a bar or two in your time." lol. He definitely plays like an irrational alcoholic admiral. Imagine a human child being taken to be raised by a vulcan without her human parents because the parents "may retard the child's development." ...also, why does the admiral talk like he has experience with androids? We'll never know.
I love how the nerds try to connect the dots with A to B to C to D and so on. John Doe will watch this show anyway drinking his beer noticing how hot Lal is.
I like how Lal is given human-like features instead of 'female data' look. Data wanted Lal to be more than he was. More human if you will. Parental desire to help his offspring.
Broke: Data created Lal to explore the concept of parenthood.
Woke: Data created Lal just to fuck with Picard
Also, that admiral wouldn't have been crying in the end if Data and Troi had gone with the creepy bearded Klingon child costume.
So data knows what it's like to kiss Riker now
The true motivation behind the entire experiment.
I always wondered why nobody Lal was never mentioned in PICARD
because the writers of picard are hacks
Writers on the show sometimes got caught in their own rules like the transported could copy or keep a pattern for safety and thus NEVER lose someone but that would take away so many stories and drama. Same with Starfleet freedom rules getting in the way of forcibly taking a child/robot or even a smart toaster that a crewman might build? and no one appeals how barbaric and cruel this is. Even able to build a transporter, about the hardest thing known to science will ever be invented is doubtful BUT was built first before the roll up Piano we saw in "Lessons" haha
This is one of the best episodes.
The one critique I have, regarding this episode, is that it seems like a shame that TNG killed the Lal character off at the end. There could have been some terrific follow-up episodes with Lal (like there were with "Seven of Nine" in Voyager).
Your training montage was so good!
so i just got my first AI TPE love doll, and designed her to look just like Luul. She's the bestest ever! Been waiting for this since i saw the episode at 14
Data absorbed Lal's memories, so technically he made out with Riker. 🤣
I hated Haftel. I thought that Captain Lavoie from Measure of a Man should have made an appearance on this episode, and then she could have backed up Picard's claim of sentence to androids. I also found that Lal could have been a recurring character or that Data could have attempted to make another android in another episode.
I give it a B
".......... HE'S BITING THAT FEMALE !!!!!!!!!!!..........."
(8K]_/
You say Starfleet's decisions didnt make sense and were somewhat ridiculous - that happens a lot in big organisations in real life :) the pain and stupidity are real.
They wanted to give her to Section 31 but couldn’t say so
It was an alright episode. B- for me as well. Good idea for the plot. They keep trying to give data some character development episodes, but I feel they explored this theme of whether a android is property or individual/race/species. So, for me this is a rehashed theme with a slight twist.
I am pretty sure the script writers meant for the audience to see Lal"s ability to use contraction as the very first symptom of the neural cascade failure. Data pretty much did say Lal's ability to feel emotions was the result of the neural cascade failure. Also I also think the script writers meant for Admiral Halftal's actions to be the main cause of Lal's neural net scrambling causing her to feel the emotions that caused her neural cascade failures. The writers were trying to introduce a high stakes consequence that would cause conflict iand turmoilb n the logic programming in the positronic brain of two week old android. Maybe if Lal had been aloud to live two or three months more, that would allow Lal to develop more neural synapses to stablize her positronic matrix. Lal would have probably handled this conflict artificially created by this douche bag admiral better. So I disagree with the proposition that everything would turned out the same way without the presence of the douchebag admiral.
Lal should have used for a couple more episodes. This one is memmorable, fun and interesting.
I don't know why tf Data stays in Starfleet they try and strip his rights away anytime he does something lol
But why did he never try again?
This is a great episode by itself, but it is a bit disappointing in the longterm, because the implications are huge from these events in the episode, but they're never really brought up again. In many ways, this is a follow up to measure of a man for Data and Androids in Starfleet, but yeah...
Liked the revised Haftel credits using authentic ST:TNG font.
You know given how convincing deep fake and CGI technology is, I predict someone will eventually produce a "new" Next Generation episode featuring the original character's faces digitally superimposed on actors. Want to make an episode where Lal returns? Spend a few weeks on your PC and voila!
I've thought about trying to edit a new episode composed entirely of clips from existing episodes taken out of context, but it might be too labor intensive of an undertaking. --Robert
Easy A.
That haircut of Lal really bothered me.
Agree. Great review on this one
I actually forgot about Halftel in this episode. He was completely unnecessary to the plot.
The episode would of being loads better if the teaching montage was the one you used.
Starfleet has very high standards of individuality and democracy and laws and all that and keep pounding it into captains with the Prime directive ect. So having a Admiral just ring up and demand her to be taken away as in Measure of a Man, is inconsistent and worse Picard MUST be able to appeal to a bench of oversee or admirals above that guy and bury it in red tape and all that. Arbitrary officers just demanding is what communist and dictator style govts have and fear works very well to not argue when you are given a order!! Could have been a dreary long winded episode but runs along till the very stressful ending if you havnt seen it already.
Yeah really don't get how man making machine man fine, useful, we want to take you apart to make more even! Machine man making machine man oh no can't have that!
Another “review” where are you in the same breath complain that somethings hit the viewer over the head with how explicit they are, and simultaneously miss sub, textual clues as to why characters act in certain ways. Can’t be both.
I can't stand this episode
good episode.. still got a tear in my eye
CShep-qe6vl Hallie Todd portrayed Lal and was Nancy Reagan the homeless girl on Growing Pains.