Why Are People So Salty About Clip Studio Paint?
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- Опубліковано 7 лип 2024
- CLip Studio announced version 2.0 recently and along with it a new pricing strategy. And people were not happy. What went wrong?
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I think the funniest thing to come out of this is when they made a tweet about subscriptions saying "We have received a lot of feedback and are taking note of your comments." and then went on to explain that they decided to ignore the feedback and aren't changing anything.
I've never seen a company go from universally beloved to universally hated so fast. It's like a bad PR speedrun.
I say this as someone who absolutely hates the subscription model of software, but who also develops software himself: there's a huge difference between weighing feedback and deciding not to do the thing the community wants, and just outright ignoring that feedback. We're not the developers here--we're not privy to all the deliberations happening behind closed doors at that company. Community feedback may well have forced a reevaluation that just...resulted in the same outcome. If that were what happened, it wouldn't be the feedback being ignored--that would just be factors we don't know about determining the outcome.
"Bad PR speedrun" lol loving this term xD
The real question is are people fundamentaly opposed to a subscription model with a in situ no update purchase option, or is this how this change was communicated to thier cusotmers the actuaal issue. (Hand of god style)
Kinda based
They arent going subscription only.
The news page specifically says each major version will have a perpetual license where you keep that version forever. So you can straight out buy 2.0 3.0 4.0 5.0 6.0 etc. in the future. It's just new features (live feature update) between major versions you'll have to subscribe for if you really need them. If you subscribe but stop. You revert back to the last perpetual version you bought. So if you buy(not update via subscription) 3.0 and then get an update pass but stop paying later. You revert back to 3.0 not 1.x. You only revert back to 1.x if you didn't buy the perpetual license to 3.0.
If you're not worried about/don't need the new features as they come, you can skip the subscription and/or update pass. Just. Buy the perpetual version of the major version you want if it has features you like. You could even skip versions if you want.
When I used to use photoshop I had CS2 all the way up until I decided to get CS6 before they went subscription only.
I feel like Clip Studio could find better ways to bring in money besides resorting to a subscription model for their software. For starters, they could stop the $10,000 tip of the month giveaway. I don't think it has ever produced a useful tip for me. Instead, they could produce actual, professional courses and charge for that. That way they could also scale back on the webinars, which are too often poorly organized and rarely offer much in terms of useful info. A subscription for online courses that cover every aspect of mastering CSP? TAKE MY MONEY!!!
Also, their little hand-held shortcut doohickey was not a good design. But if they just made a shortcut keypad like the ones you see for Procreate, and it was compatible with other popular drawing software...TAKE MY MONEY!!!
@@ScottDuBar Hand-held doohickey.. Jen Bartel, artist who makes covers for Marvel, uses 8-Bit Do's bluetooth mini controller that is meant for playing games, in her work. Nothing can really beat that, if you ask me.. :D
@@atp19xx I would say that the 8Bitdo controller looks like it would be better than the Clip Studio controller. I just think a keypad offers more functionality.
I saw a person saying in another video on this same topic that "just because csp is giving away +$10,000 monthly as contest prizes, it doesn't mean the company is doing well financially" Like, WHAT? I mean yes they ARE a company but if they stopped doing these contests it would DEFINITELY help '-' i'm glad i'm not the only one who disagreed
@@bun334 they are really good for the csp ecosystem, especially for ppl who need to learn fundamentals for a new style. Every one of these 10k competitions adds like a dozen nice English and JP guides + related assets to the website.
I have a problem with subscription models on the bases that you never own what you are paying for. I wouldn't mind something like an expansion model, which is much less lucrative I understand, but is also less predatory and in my own opinion much less evil
Yeah but the thing is that you also don't own Clip Studio with the one-time payment license.
You are well, paying for a license to use it, and if at any moment Celsys decides it, your serial key would just stop activating your copy on their servers.
Its true of pretty much any piece of digital software since computers are a thing, and its explained in detail in the ToS
I agree with that, but there is still a pay to own option.
;)
@@thebradcolbow You don't OWN. You LICENSE. That is the key. This is the reason a long time ago, Microsoft book service just closed and a lot of book you own just goes puff. The same happened in movies too.
I have been burned by subscription models before. Autocad 2013 license got expired and to continue I had to download 2014 which plain refused to run on my pc because "outdated hardware".
While I understand the market is competitive, I keep getting hung up on one thing, and even you mentioned it. "You don't say the word subscription to a bunch of starving artists." Because that's what a lot of us are. I feel like one day every program and company for digital artists will do this, and there will be a paywall keeping many potential artists from finding their tools.
When i tried to enter digital painting i pirated CSP because i wasn't sure if i stick with that hobby in the first place. After i get used to it i went and bought it normally and also recomended it to my friend who also tries digital art. But subscription is not the money i:m ready to pay for hobby. I'm not a pro, come on
You're overthinking this. Buy the software if you like the state it's currently in. Expect that for the money you shell out one time, you get software one time. That's it. That's the traditional software purchase model. They're trying to sell you extra stuff on top of that. You don't need the extra stuff, so you won't buy it. You're fine.
well at least Krita is safe, it's literally impossible for them to add any paywall
@@raidev_ sadly krita is basically unusable on mac
@@kylegriffin8783 why is that?
Something a lot of people don't think about is for developing markets, in a lot of countries a membership is a big amount of money, so if there's a hard month you will lose access to the software you need to work. I rather have a single purchase software that will work no matter what.
In my country Adobe isn't even available, so all the professionals who need it to work are literally forced to pirate it.
This is my take. Artists can be on a tight budget already. You never want to be in the position that "oh no I had a rough month, now I can't afford to work anymore". For example, every artist in russia just lost the ability to use most payment services. Not only can they not receive commission payments, they might have no way to pay that month's sub -even if they had the money.
...except you can still buy it out right. if csp has everything you need already then dont buy the subscription! its still single purchase.
@@battilinn8523 and photohsop owners still can use photoshop 4 without subscription. except it's so outdated that no one does
@@battilinn8523ah yes, because everyone has 50 euros laying around. If someone can't buy a subscription how do you expect them to buy an even more expensive license?
My problem is that everything needs subscriptions nowadays. There is a limit on how much money I can have each month, and when I have to pay 10-25$ for each and every streaming service or software, it will quickly run up into hundreds of dollars plus each month, and I still have to pay for rent, electricity and food.
Honestly most of the services don’t need subscription. Like a lot of old software was buy once, pay again if you want to update or upgrade.
We need a paint equivalent of Blender. An open sourced and full featured paint application that's backed by an organization committed to its success, ongoing development and support. I would open my wallet in a heartbeat to support something like this.
Krita is open source and free, with a dev fund you can donate to - I haven' t used it much myself but I've heard good words about it (and seen some really good stuff made in it)
I used Krita for 6 months back in 2017 before I got my iPad. It works on Windows, Linus, macOS. It has a great brush selection. There is a little learning curve, but if you are used to keyboard shortcuts in Photoshop it's really easy.
LOL! You just described Krita!!! 🤣🤣
This absolutely does describe Krita...so long as you really are looking for a paint application, specifically. The moment you start talking about photo editing, though, Krita leaves the proverbial chat. As awesome as it is for digital painting, there are a *ton* of filter and adjustment tools that Krita doesn't have. It's not yet on the same level as Blender, IMO, where it's poised to become the industry standard.
@@sinisterdesign I'm actually OK with the fact that Krita has limited photo editing capabilities as I'd rather prefer them to focus on the digital painting workflow. It is not trying to dethrone Photoshop; it is trying to provide an Autodesk Sketchbook, Clip Studio Paint, Corel Painter, etc. alternative. GIMP already is pretty good at that anyway. Besides, one can achieve impressive results with the GMIC filters. That said, I do agree that it would benefit of a few extra filters and adjustments.
7:46 I need to clarify something to professional artists: You don't think it's a big of a deal because you are "secured" in your position and you /can/ pay for subscription methods. People who an pay for such things are priviledged in the art community, so you can't say it's not that big of a deal when a ton of smaller artists struggle to find programs that are gatekeeping digital art like CSP is doing rn. Most artists who got this program in the past ten years are artists from countries that don't have access to Adobe and don't have access in general to monthly subscription, especially in a dollarized platform that doesn't allow local coins to function properly or doesn't have the proper discounts according to inflation. CSP isn't solely used by NA or JP, and that is what made the whole community angry, because they paraded their one sole purchase to places that don't have access to these kind of "luxurious services", and suddenly decided to go full-on adobe and charge three types of battle pass depending on the artist compendium. I am someone who can (and will) pay for a subscription fee for a good program, but most people who got this marketed towards to don't, and that's what hurts.
@@izumichan31 The thing is that they have already said they will stop supporting each version as soon as the next one comes. And its still an absolute unfair situation regarding the update plans. If you pay for 2.0 on the """perpetual""" version, you get tgat version but wont get any of the possble updates on 2.1 and on. You have to pay for the subscription fee if you want to be up to date. When you gt Adobe at least with the full basic plan (that has like 5 programs in it) you get access to all the features of the program, updates, patches, and new versions of the program that come out each year without paying an extra fee for upgrading. That's why I say that CSP is going worse than Adobe, because they are charging for /one/ program as a base/demo and then two more plans if you wanna get the best experience of the program. It is messed up.
It's even worse if you can't afford to extend your subscription and a feature from an update is essential to your work.
If they need more money maybe stop doing so many contests/giveaways with thousands of money
What could they even add in 2.1 that could be so insane that everyone would love to have it?
As long as they don't collab with DALL-E 2 so we can make unlimited free backgrounds, or introduce a better Photoshop healing feature or something that colorizes your art better than the current AI I see no reason for even bothering as a starving artist lmao
Of course only as long as they don't nuke the current Asset Store
@@bighatastrea It is gonna get nuked for sure because they will focus on 2.0 and so everyone will do stuff with the 2.0 system thats not gonna be compatible with 1.0. This entire thing is a mess.
@@cogitae I wouldn't be too pessimistic. Maybe it'll effectively just be like that: All the good stuff stays in the asset store and development from version 2.0 to 3.0 takes only 1 or 2 years, which would mean that we can buy 3.0 with all the 2.0 features.
Still sucks tbh lmao but I still refuse to believe that they could come up with amazing new features. Sounds more like a rich elitist artist upgrade to me since 1.x has so many amazing features already. Their marketing was awful so far, but I guess they would've shown some amazing new features already instead of just announcing the crappy subscription plan
My issue with Clip Studio changing to a subscription model is that I specifically bought Paint Pro after a lot of research, after Adobe moved Photoshop to a subscription model effectively making it too costly for me to use going forward. I paid for CSP specifically because it was a pay once product and I have since then spent a lot of time and effort learning to use CSP. I don't want to pay a subscription to use my drawing software, I cannot afford to. So now I will have to find yet another alternative.
You can continue on using your CSP version. No one is taking it away from you.
If you are happy with the current tool set , there is no worries for you.
yeah but here is the thing you can still use v1 after v2 comes out without buying a subscription
@@neko_my_cat of course you can, if you're a perpetual license holder, you get to use the very version you purchased for ever. Once 2.x comes out, you can decide whether it's worth it to buy the new version or not. Also, if you bought it, say 3 moths ago, you probably wouldn't get a whole lot of new features between the current version of CSP and the 2.0. Maybe that's why they came up with the "update pass", which I'd expect to cost way cheaper than the full version OR the annual subscription for CSP Pro or EX
I mean, the haven't announced yet the new prices, but it would be nuts to charge people more to "keep fresh" their perpetual license than just geting the latest version for ever paying for the subscription.
The subscription is also 1/10th of the cost of Adobe, at least.
Can we please stop with this pretense that people that are upset at this only want things for free? Many, many people who have voiced their dissatisfaction with the subscription model have also said they'd be happy to pay full price for a 2.0 license that works just the same as 1.x has (I would. I upgraded my license from Pro to Ex). Many people have also said they'd be ok with the subscription thing if they got to keep the last update that came out when they had their subscription. People feel betrayed and taken advantage of. Celsys are double dipping by offering a "perpetual license" for 2.0 that you have to pay to keep up to date.
And no, they're not hurting for money. It's not a matter of Celsys changing model in order to try and stay solvent.
They arent going subscription only. Or forcing you to subscribe for updates. Subscribing is just an option.
The news page specifically says each major version will have a perpetual license where you keep that version forever. So you can straight out buy 2.0 3.0 4.0 5.0 6.0 etc. in the future. It's just new features (live feature update) between major versions you'll have to subscribe for if you really need them. If you subscribe but stop. You revert back to the last perpetual version you bought. So if you buy(not update via subscription) 3.0 and then get an update pass but stop paying later. You revert back to 3.0 not 1.x. You only revert back to 1.x if you didn't buy the perpetual license to 3.0.
If you're not worried about/don't need the new features as they come, you can skip the subscription and/or update pass. Just buy the perpetual version of the major version you want if it has features you like. You could even skip versions if you want.
When I used to use photoshop I had CS2 all the way up until I decided to get CS6 before they went subscription only.
Celsys is a privately held company; I'm curious to know how you know they aren't hurting for money. Do you have access to their financials?
I can understand where you're coming from, and it makes sense from your perspective. But a lot of people ditched PhotoShop's subscription plan after CS6 for CSP, *precisely* because CSP promised one-time purchase without the leash of subscription plans. So there is a sense of "bait-and-switch" which has a lot of people that are creating on razor-thin income margins feeling stabbed in the back.
When did they promise that? They had subscriptions years before just only in Japan and decided to open it up to the rest of the world to buy. Same thing with the asset store and modeler.
Normally, I'd be a bit sad but understanding about a software of CSP's caliber turning to a subscription plan. It's powerful, it lets you drag n drop 3D, and every update has me excited like it's Christmas.
However, I don't feel that way. I feel suspicious because what makes CSP different from their competitors business-wise how much money they've been throwing out.
They've been known to host FREQUENT sales, and they give out thousands worth of cash prizes for every monthly competition they have.
So can't they just...stop doing that? Reduce overheads so they have enough to pay for the software development instead of resorting to subscriptions?
It feels predatory. It feels like they're being loss leaders; they make you think they're too good to be true and once they've built enough of a fanbase, they pull out the rug underneath and reveal their true business plan.
Still, I'm holding out on hope that CSP will release a statement on why they chose this route, and that they do have a valid reason why they're switching to subscriptions instead of saying it's to pay for software development (because if that's the case, why won't they decrease the overheads I just mentioned?)
I always want full transparency from businesses I'm buying from. I really don't wanna believe they're playing a loss leader. Plus, their PR is crap and hasty so I'm hoping they can turn it around.
Plus, if they tell us what made them switch, people can give CSP more helpful feedback. I feel that it's in everyone's best interest that CSP does this.
If it makes you feel any better, in Celsys's announcment, they say, "The Update Passes will be sold for a lower price than Monthly Usage Plans." The current Monthly Usage Plan is $25 per year.
I saw a person saying in another video on this same topic that "just because csp is giving away +$10,000 monthly as contest prizes, it doesn't mean the company is doing well financially" Like, WHAT? I mean yes they ARE a company but if they stopped doing these contests it would DEFINITELY help '-' i'm glad i'm not the only one who disagreed
@@bun334 HUH???? WHERE IS THE LOGIC IN THAT PERSON'S STATEMENT??? Like what was their reasoning???????
@@ramreboot Oh boy, here we go- their comment was quite lenghty soo...grab a popcorn i guess..
"""They are a company with developer costs and server upkeep , amongst a lot of other things , I'm sorry but even if they were giving 10k gifts weekly that's not sign of they doing well financially . You are making calculations in your hear assuming they emply like 15 people . Saying that they must be doing super well because they spend a few mil on what's basically advertisement is naive they have more expenses .
Regarding the other thing , you can own stuff , you can own a car , but you have to pay for the gas , the tires , the upkeep in general , same with basically anything else . In regards to programs , you can own them , just as you own games , but you can't really expect free updates , you buy what it's there at a certain point in time and nothing else , everything you are getting for free . The only updates you can reasonably expect in perpetuity are the ones that allow you to still use what you have in your system . So if you update windows or IOS , you should still be able to run the version of the program you bought , but nothing else . The idea that on top of that you should just own in perpetuity any new content without paying for it is far beyond what's reasonable , when exactly did you buy that ? And that's not predatory just by being , specially if we are talking about dozens of meaningful updates across a decade . So if you want true ownership you have basically 2 options . Buy the program and never update it . Stick to the version that existed at the time you bought it , since that's what you actually paid for , or find a program that instead of a membership offers packs . So you have a base version , and if something new comes out that you want , you can buy it independently and you own forever . That's fair , But you are not entitled to buy something and have it be incredibly improved decade after decade forever by paying 50 dollars back in 2012 , no company can be sustainable in the long term by doing that . If you aregument is you own what you paid for , that's fair . You own what you paid for at the time you bought it and nothing else . Everything else you got for free and you very much did not pay for it . """"
@@ramreboot Honestly after the "they are not financially stable just because they give away 10k a month" statement I didn't read the rest of the comment, because even with all that reasoning it doesn't change the fact that this business strategy is terrible, not only for CSP themselves, but also for the artists that make use of their program
I've bought both Clip Studio Paint Pro and EX (1.x), and I've recommended CSP to a bunch of folks because as it is, it is a legitimately great piece of software. I've bought a bunch of brush packs over the years. Not having recurring fees was a HUGE part of why I made that decision.
Now they tell me that even if I buy the perpetual 2.0 (that I can't upgrade my existing perpetual 1.x licenses to for some reason that looks a lot like greed), I won't get updates for it past 2.1 unless I pay a recurring fee. Either a yearly "update pass" (which is a joke of an idea, and not a funny one either), or a monthly subscription (which I refuse to pay for software tools). Their software is a tool. None of my other tools get downgraded a year after I've paid for them. I don't lose access to other tools after I've paid for them.
Say I do get an update pass - the moment it runs out I'm back to 2.1. It's like hey, you bought this hammer full-price and you got an attachment for it that makes it better, but after a year it will revert back to the version without the attachment because see, you were only renting this fully-featured hammer attachment version for a time. They don't want to sell it to you, so you can't actually buy it.
The Substance Suite got bought out by Adobe a few years ago. They switched to mostly subscriptions right after, but they still offered perpetual licenses on Steam (that include ALL updates for that version, and there's a version out every year). The perpetual licenses for the new major version are offered at a hefty discount for existing user close to the launch of the new version (essentially a loyalty discount). So you can effectively upgrade your perpetual license if you want to once a year for a set price (lower if you have the last one), and you get all the updates for it until the next major version. You get to keep every perpetual license you've bought INCLUDING ALL ITS UPDATES.
The moment Substance products are no longer offered perpetually, including all updates, is the moment they'll never see another cent from me. Because I want to buy things and own them, and not rent them out, even as a hobbyist. I don't want to worry that there will always be more fees to pay or else my experience will get downgraded.
Software development isn't easy, isn't cheap, and CELSYS offer a very good tool. CSP is worth supporting financially, and I have, in no small part because I liked their business model and the community. But it's a tool I want to buy and use at my leisure, and not rent the updates for. That is a shitty business practice and one I will refuse to support, because I don't want to encourage shitty business practices from anyone.
If there isn't an option to upgrade to a perpetual license that includes all updates for that major numbered version at a reasonable price, like version 1.x was and is, I simply won't bother with it and I'll use the product I've already paid for. They won't see a cent from me for a monthly subscription, and they certainly won't see a cent from me for an "update pass" which I can only rent and not buy.
I will definitely not buy their 2.0 perpetual if it doesn't include all major numbered updates for that version AND I GET TO KEEP USING THE MOST UP-TO-DATE VERSION without paying them a recurring fee. If they're just dead set on not offering that unless it's a recurring subscription, they won't get another cent from me until 3.0 at least, because at least with 3.0 perpetual they'll have no choice but to include all the features they've included in 2.x, and together all them might be worth the asking price.
No company with a business model that scummy will get my support in this new direction. Zbrush did the same thing with no longer offering a true perpetual, and a ton of people dropped it like a bad habit. I understand that money needs to flow, so the development team can get paid to further advance the software.
I've paid good money to own CSP products. I'm not against the idea for paying them to continue improving them. As a one-time fee that includes all updates for that major version, which I won't ever lose access to. Ideally with a decent discount for being a loyal customer and upgrading from a previously purchased perpetual version.
But "update passes" or a monthly/yearly subscription that leaves me without access or with access to a downgraded version as soon as I stop paying it? That bs, I will not support, and I will discourage everyone from supporting. It's extremely disappointing that they ever even considered implementing a pricing model that transparently extortionate.
If they kept it as it was with CSP 1.x, offering both an actual perpetual option(including updates) and a subscription option, I'd probably have bought 2.x Even if they came out with major versions every year, if I liked the features enough I'd keep buying the perpetuals because I'd know there's no way my experience is getting downgraded after I've paid. Essentially locking you to the earliest (most scuffed) version of their software when you buy the perpetual 2.x and locking you out of updates unless you're willing to pay money every month is sheer stupidity and greed, and I make it a point to not support either of those.
All they have to is add the price of the update pass to the perpetual license price and have it work like most its competitors. This was 100% a business move to make as much as they can, which is fine, but they ignored their audience. They’re not Adobe where they can do it since so many people and businesses rely on their software suite. That’s not the case with Clip Studio since their competitors are close.
You’ve pretty much said everything I came here to say
What an essay
"Say I do get an update pass - the moment it runs out I'm back to 2.1. It's like hey, you bought this hammer full-price and you got an attachment for it that makes it better, but after a year it will revert back to the version without the attachment because see, you were only renting this fully-featured hammer attachment version for a time. They don't want to sell it to you, so you can't actually buy it."
Is that how it works???? That's nuts. That's the trickiest scheme I've heard so far. They went from beloved software to hated company...but we still need it.
@@spiraltriggerex They've done the math. They will make more money with the people who go along with it, than if they continue on the same path.
I recently bought the perpetual license under the assumption I would get future updates and features. I am not a full-time artist so I cannot justify buying a subscription for software I am not using daily.
expect them to invalidate your "perpetual" license when the subscription model comes into effect.
They did it to me when my "perpetual" license was a few years old.
If you aren't a professional you are more than covered with version 1.X which is the current version.
There's no need to have the latest features. You won't become a better artist.
Some professionals make Manga for big companies in Japan, and they print those illustrations they made with CSP using the current version.
@@corgikun2579 you don't have to be a professional to be an artist...
But it is indeed quite possible you're not going to need or want the new features in any piece of software, and it doesn't matter whether you're paid for your use of it or not. It's common.
The problem is that a perpetual license that cannot receive all updates within its version by a subscription model ceases to be perpetual. If they want to switch to Adobe's subscription model, let them do it but don't try to mask it and we still don't know how much this season's battle pass will cost, sorry, the upgrade pass. Because even in the name of the annual payment they made a mockery of their customers.
It will be better to switch to a pay to upgrade model or new versiom every 5 years. I do feel they have 0 outreach to try and explain this to their fan base. I do agree clip studio is the best and i will cling to my v1 till they prayit out of my death hands. Or windows does another dam upgrade to 13 or whatever.
We do have some information about how much it will cost. Look at the annnouncement regarding the subscription service. It says, "The Update Passes will be sold for a lower price than Monthly Usage Plans. At the current time, there are no plans to significantly change the pricing of the perpetual version." The current Monthly Usage Plan is $25 per year, not month, or $2 a month. People are assuming that this is going to be Adobe levels of cost, but that's not what the information we have is saying.
If the information they are putting out is correct, that means a $2/month charge for the Update Pass, plus the $50 one time purchase to upgrade to Version 2. That's a fraction of what people are paying for Netflix, Spotify, Disney+, etc.
I think of it lime this when you buy the perpetual version thats all you're getting the product as is plus bug fixes. The additional features between major versions will be bundled into the next major version. So you can wait and just buy the perpetual license for the next major version instead of subscribing for live feature updates as they come out.
Wow…
Who ever is the marketing lead did not think that one through. You 100000% lead with cool new features, explain the subscription option, followup with reiterating the bit new features.
Also, at least they are still giving people an option of perpetual. Most companies will hard cut over to subscription. The software maintenance/upgrade path etc is always a nightmare to maintain
I disagree that this was a mistake. When they decide to release details on the new 2.0 features it will be more likely that the subscription debacle does _not_ bury the lead. Not a single online "news" source would be talking about the new features before feeding into the fervor over paid upgrades had they released the news together.
1. Autodesk Sketchbook made an app that cost 10 dollars. I bought it.
2. They made it free a half year later.
3. They made it a standalone app and now sell it for 20 dollars with minimal updates, and removed certain features people used. They keep saying it's for our developers to make new features. There's no new features. I had to buy the app again.
I had to buy the same software twice with very minimal change that was free at some point. It's a big deal to me. Why? Their shitty practices. True it's not a subscription....yet. If they go that route I MAY OFF MYSELF. More likely I'm switching to procreate soon. This is why I refuse to pay for subscriptions. This is why I'm salty af. This is why I refuse. It's not about the money; it's about the way companies pull this bs and treat their users like trash.
Also work in software development, believe you're giving them an unearned pass.
There is some price at which average subscription revenue = one-time revenue. They know what that price is. By refusing to offer a one-time tier at that price, they've shown their hand.
As with Adobe, greed is the likely motivation. They've lost my business.
For many clipstudio was the miracle cure for adobes rental software model , so it's a fear of extortion. Makes me wonder about affinity's sustainable buying only every new major version x.0
You can buy each major version of CSP. You don't gave to subscribe if you can wait til the next version to get the features.
My heart goes out to the artists who have trouble making ends meet and will have trouble paying for a new subscription
Me in my 40s, with a full time job as an artist, I can pay for the subscription, or pick up a new software just to try it
Me in my 20s? When I was counting dollars for how much my meals would cost? This news would’ve brought me to tears. You’re still learning, you’re just starting out trying to be an artists full time, you think you found a software you only have to pay for once, then you get hit with this news. There are more free softwares available now, but learning new software takes time. And they’re not industry standard. I get why people are scared and stressed
Exactly, I've recommended this program for years because it is (was) incredibly budget friendly for newer/ or low income artists. Cant do that anymore...
@@Kyubimoriko It's probably not going to cost that much, according to the information they released. A current 1 device plan is just $25 per year (as opposed to $20/month for Photoshop.) In their notes about the Update Pass, it says, "Update Passes will be sold for a lower price than Monthly Usage Plans. At the current time, there are no plans to significantly change the pricing of the perpetual version." That means it's going to be less thatn $25/year if I'm interpreting that correctly, plus the perpetual license of $50 or so. You'll be paying $25 a year for updates. It's still relatively inexpensive compared to products like Corel and Adobe.
People are incorrectly assuming that subscription = Adobe cost, but the information we have from Celsys is, "The Update Passes will be sold for a lower price than Monthly Usage Plans. At the current time, there are no plans to significantly change the pricing of the perpetual version." The current Monthly Usage Plan is $25 per year.
So it will be $50 one-time payment to upgrade to Version 2, and $2 a month for the optional Upgrade Plan. Would $2 a month bring someone to tears? How many CSP users do you think have Disney+ or Netflix, which cost 10x more? Or buy a coffee at Starbucks every day? It might go up in the future, which would suck, but right not, this isn't going to break anyone's budget.
I've seen so many people assume that this is going to be $20 a month or something like that; I wish people would look at the info provided and form their opinions based on that, rather than just hear the word "subscription" and think "Adobe." This isn't the same situation. Granted, Celsys did a TERRIBLE job of rolling out this information; that's on them. If they had been more clear about the pricing, and the fact that it is optional, they would not have gotten the (much deserved) backlash they got.
I don't understand why nobody's heart goes out to everyone who works tirelessly on creating software that the users don't think should make them a profit...
Imagine checking your bank account for your direct deposit from your employer, and instead of finding a higher balance, you found a line item that read, "we paid you last month; that should have been enough for your perpetual service" ...
That’s why you go to the sea and live as a pirate. No way I’d have any sort of career if I didn’t get access to bootleg copies of Photoshop and Corel Draw
IF IF IF Clip continues to sell perpetual licenses I am on board with them expanding on their subscription service. I would choose to wait to buy the perpetual version even if it is lacking new features. What I would like to see is more artists putting money behind open source developers. Krita has a good base program right now, with time, money and proper management (Blender Institute), it could be in a similar position to Blender eventually.
Personally I believe they should make the perpetual license give you everything for that particular version (2.0, 3.0, etc). The fact you stop getting updates once a feature update comes and stopping the update pass revert you back to 2.0 is ridiculous. If they made it so you keep the last version you had with you update pass then I wouldn’t be so against their current plans.
@@spiraltriggerex this is exactly my issue with what they announced. I have never heard of a company doing this before, you buy version X you get versions X.1, X.2 etc etc.
I'm fine with a subscription or a perpetual license, just don't hybrid them together.
10000% agree. Not only that. Dont pirate software. Its bad for you. That is how autodesk does it. They allow people to pirate to gain market this stops people from trying out other free stuff and aliniates competitors. Using software is supporting it. Never forget that.
I envy with PC Krita because they can use addons to modified Krita with additonal feature (android can't do that)
@@spiraltriggerex this seems perfectly reasonable to me. pay to forever acquire w/e version you want but if you want new updates/features... pay for it.
All I can say is either people would leave and find a new program, continue to support Clip Paint or just plain find ways to pirate it
If they provide incredible new features for each new versions, then yeah I guess buying every version everytime they released a newer one is reasonable, the weird thing is they used a battle pass system in order to get the mini updates (2.1, 3.1, 4.1 etc) which is very strange. They could theoretically threatened non update pass user by making intentional bugs in the earlier versions in order for the people to get the pass to fix it. Kinda a sus move by the company if I may say
Sounds like Apple products (iphones) ngl LOL. I wonder if that’s where they got their inspiration from 😂
(As an iPhone user who updated from 6 to 12 last year)
Yes this it like charging for betta versions. Its a very shaky move.
I believe I read something along the lines of "the update pass will get you the latest features, but non pass subscriptors will still get critical errors fixed and security updates"
@@jorgefnx this is true for CSP v1 *until* CSP v3 came out, meaning when v3 came out, you can still keep your permanent license for v1, but wont receive anymore stability updates. I don't know if v1 still work with the incoming future versions since there may be some big difference between versions. Sooner or later the v1 may become obsolete due to being not supported anymore and won't work with the future ones (like the assets or features of the newer ones doesn't exists on v1). Only a speculation but this is not out of the realm of possibility.
Battle Pass ?
So I have to finish "drawing challenges" to unlock features ?
:-)
I would rather have a yearly new version I'd have to buy for a full price, than to subscribe to a payment plan.
But the problem is, that they have problems innovating the app. What can you offer the customer that makes a new software attractive?
It's very unlikely. The app is 'good enough'.
So what are CSP and Adobe doing? They want customers to pay monthly. Because there is an end to the innovation.
I don't think that it's fair to the customers. And I don't think that most people would actually need an app with all those fancy new features. :)
In general, most people use a very limited range of features.
You can buy new full release versions when they come out, why not.
You don't have to subscribe for upgrade plan.
Wouldn’t that basically be an annual subscription though?
@@agunemon but i would own my software. I could decide to stop paying and keep using the software. That's a major difference
@@thatsagoodone8283 Actually there's this business model that was embraced by JetBrains, a company developing software developer tools, where their products are subscription based, but once you've payed for a whole year, you get a perpetual license for the version available at the time you started to pay. It's a pretty good idea in my opinion, both profitable for the company and cost-friendly for the user.
@@jorgefnx I'd agree but do we have any confirmation that celsys is going to use that model? If not: this model is not the one that most companies use
How many of CSP's users have not only contributed to their online library and value of the library, but also how many have promoted CSP and helped CSP benefit hugely financially by that promotion over the years ... only to be lumped with this ... you gotta buy new version but still pay more for updates and features on that same purchased version! Greed will drive so many loyal away!
Then leave bro. I'm still gonna be using my perfectly functional software I paid $30 for in 2018. Updates haven't added _anything_ essential since then and you aren't missing out by just paying once every few years.
@@Ty6260 I don't think that's how it works you pay for the update license then when it expires it moves you back to the version you first payed for
@@SurealG I get what they are saying. They are fine with the base version of clip and they will upgrade as needed. We will still be able to buy a base level 2.0 update but just like them I don’t plan to be updating my setup for a good while. I’m still confused by clips reasoning but it’s still an affordable program with multiple options of payment so I’m just gonna need to deal with it 😓
Do you know the pricing of updates/versions/subs? You don't.
Also, just because people use a feature in software doesn't mean they have a right to decide how the people making the software will run their business.
Using library is on users, provided to be an addition to already great tool.
You just can't expect all the stuff for free.
Someone is putting effort and his life time to develop this software, why do it for free.
@@TheMemagNeman that's one of the most anti consumer things I've ever heard your argument is that if we see a company doing bad things we shouldn't speak out against it people are tired of subscription services it's getting expensive it's already expensive everything is a subscription service and it also is making us pay to rent their updates constantly if you wanna get Fucked by companies have fun with that but the rest of us want them to not make this change
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't it state that at any point of time you stop paying the subscription, the programme will be reverted back to base 2.0, meaning that you lose the updates you paid for past 2.0. This is what bothers me about the subscription fee they're implementing the most
My biggest problem with the subscription is how it validates. It's not once per month but when ever you open the app. So even though i was already charged that month, A window pops up that says " connect to the internet or next time the app won't launch" ( at least on the ipad).
Adobe doesn't even give you that one time free - certainly not on the enterprise version I had when I worked for a large corporation. You had the licence pop up, then authenticate through Windows 365 and all this was dependent on the VPN working if I was working from home.
A total nightmare - so I just used it on-site and only had to do licence / Windows Authenticate. Give me one time payment every time please!
That would kill me. We have poor electricity and internet in my country and internet can go for days or weeks. So that means I'd be forced to take a vacation every other day because my software needs a ritual and a sacrifice to the gods before I can open it?
As others have already pointed out, the problem with subscription models is the fact that you never really own the product. You're just renting it. And I do understand the need for maintainance costs, as I also have a programming background, there are better ways to implement that such as expansion packs. Or like what Adobe used to do with Photoshop before they adopted the subscription model which was every new big( usually yearly) update just came with a base price for that product. That you would get to keep. Forever. Just like most of security programs still do to this day. As Microsoft does for every version with it's Windows OS.
The point is, people don't like subscription models; They never have and probably never will. There are other, non-greedy ways to keep developing and maintaining software, and subscription model is not one of them.
Ps. I also love CSP and have it on both PC and tablet, and will probably continue to use both versions, as long as they don't raise the monthly fee for the mobile version. So I can keep my version 1 on PC, and whatever new version I get on my tablet. I just hope that they keep their file extensions compatible with each other.
That update pass is terrible and should just be built in the perpetual prices. The fact you can buy 2.0 and update pass for 3 years then revert to 2.0 after ending the update pass is not right for the god business done so far to customers. Them going radio silent after the backlash also made things worse instead of tackling it
@@spiraltriggerex Exactly. They handled that terribly.
@@spiraltriggerex The thing is you don't have to buy the update pass if you don't want to. If you don't absolutely need whatever new features are added in between major versions, you can just wait until 3.0 or 4.0 to make another purchase and buy a perpetual license to those which will include all the features up til those versions.
@@izumichan31 I know I don’t have to buy the update pass. The recommendation you gave is just coping with the new way they’re doing perpetual licenses. If they don’t add anything major from 2.0 compared to 1.x then there’s no reason to get 2.0. The problem is they will likely add in the enticing features in 2.1, 2.2, and etc. that way you get the update pass. Once you get the update pass and you do art regularly then you’re borderline forced to keep paying if your art utilize new features that doesn’t work in 1.x or 2.0. Perpetual licenses shouldn’t be valid until a minor feature update. Adobe isn’t even that bad.
My issue is they can switch to the adobe model in any moment in the future, this is just the stepping stone.
In some countries (I'm sure there are many), it could cost the artists at least one or two commissions just to cover the monthly subscriptions which I think it's kind of effed up, to be honest. This doesn't affect me since I use free software but I feel bad for artists whose lives rely on this software and just one move of the company could affect them financially.
Yes. Which is why the world needs free open source software. We need to support that by abandoning piracy. That way a community will generate knowledge and male that software easier to work with.
I wanna know what country I can move to where I can survive a month on 1 or 2 commissions. That would be _epic_ ...
CSP already has like 2 monthly subscriptions for illustration and EX version. Hell, I payed full price for the EX version and I enjoy it so much. I even could give them cash if there's neat optional things.
But of course, the forced subscription has struck the company. IT'S ALWAYS THE BLOODY SUBSCRIPTIONS!
I have a problem with them coming out just to announce that after you have already paid for a licence ( almost $300 for me due to conversion ) that you can either pay for another one (no price listed) or subscribe to the updates (Also, no price listed). It did not help their case with revealing 3.0 along with this load of nothing. They got people angry and somewhat scared that the program they spent a chunk of money on isn't gonna be supported in the next comming years. They didn't announce anything other than a blatant map of how they want to start thinking.
I want to understand that they need to be played for their work- but considering how often they raffle, sponsor and price give away, I can't understand the point of it.
Also- there are many of us that don't do this as a job/for our sole income who purchased it under the understanding that we where going to have a product that is going to work- like you said, measurement by dollar spent, so even if it's "a good subscription for what your getting" people have already set their attitude towards this. And for those of us that did get it for work I doubt want to get stuck paying for another subscription on top of everything else, we want to be payed for our work too. It's just frustrating, bc I know I didn't just buy it because "it's a one time purchase" and I don't keep using it for that- we use it because of an off chance we bought it for curiosity. A friend, UA-cam or even add had probably gotten to us first and we saw how good it was and decided to get it before having that trust and money thrown into the garbage.
its really unfair to assume that they have money to throw around just because they have an advertising budget. the only way for them to make money is if people buy their service, it would be insane for any company to just not advertise. and they put their license on sale a lot because a sale at a lower price is still a sale, and since theres no actual product being manufactured, its worth offering a lower price to get more individuals to buy the product (plus, having people learn clip studio means its more likely they or their companies will buy organisational licenses in the future, which are more lucrative than individual licenses)
Didn’t they say that 3.0 was coming soon in a few years and that 2.0 won’t release with anything drastic? It sounds like 3.0 is the big update while 2.0 is to get people out of the old ways of purchasing their software to the new ways
I used the Jack Sparrow version for a while but decided to support the company because I liked their product. I can always reverse this decision.
So, you like the product but you don't like the product?
@@TheMemagNeman If the product changes, yes, I can stop liking it. I thought It was an obvious position.
@@HecmarJayam So first you pirate it ,
then you become to love it then purchased it to show appreciation for the devs.
Then they announce model changes, the product remains the same,
you don't like the unchanged product anymore, so you threaten to pirate it
because product stayed the same (and you still love it as you did when you purchased the license)?
You will go back to pirating because you don't like the product anymore?
But why would you use it then?
@@TheMemagNeman First of all, I really like your art. Some great pieces there. Now, as for your question - I think the way you think as a consumer is mistaken. As a consumer you only have one choice - where to spend your money. If I don't agree with a company and its policies, then they wont get my money. As simple as that. Even if piracy is not an option, there is plenty of other programs I'd rather support. It's really that simple.
@@HecmarJayam Thanks.
Well it's the same here, if I don't like the updates I won't update.
I can easily switch to other apps if CSP stops working and becomes to expensive to use.
Piracy is like using a product you like but you don't want to pay. I don't understand it anymore.
There are other programs as well, right, and there is no reason to use something you don't like.
Yes I'm happy about the dev would be paid more, but the way they are going about it is not great.
There are so many ways to get around the sub model easily if they wanted to put some effort into planning.
The execution of the sub model is just lazy at best and malicious at worst.
Yearly releases so you pay for that specific release, or release updates in tool packs so you can pay for the tools you want and keep them. Any of these would work so much better and make people happy while getting the devs paid, but they just decided not to.
Edit: typo
Honestly, I think Celsys is making the decisions they are making because they are part of the Metaverse Standards Forum. It’s basically like a discord for rich people. Based on my research, it includes companies like Adobe, Microsoft, and a few other ones. I’m sure that since Celsys’ arival on the forum, they have probably been persuaded by other companies on there to go into the more subscription based business model.
The company IS doing this out of greed and stupidity. I will assure you of that. That point is further supported by them ignoring their followers and customers. In their tweet, all they did was “clarify” a few things. They did not make any changes. The company could make it so the new version’s purchasable perpetual license comes with all of the feature updates included with the perpetual license purchase. So basically like 1.x, but a 2.0 version. Instead of going with the 1.x model but I’m 2.0 (which is what the customer base would have preferred and would have been more than happy to pay for the upgrade) they went with something different. They went with having the customer have purchase a new perpetual 2.0 version plus an update pass, which you pay annually to have and will loose all the features of you don’t pay (you will be kicked back to the version without the features). This method will end up having the customer pay more than 1.x version was.
They do not have to go with that business model. They would still make a massive profit from having a 1.x type of upgrade (with all the features included without an update pass) considering most people would upgrade (I personally would upgrade in a heart beat if that were the case). To also add on top of that, there is still a pretty large amount of people who use csp’s subscription model, for example, this UA-camr. Csp was able to make system/feature updates without a problem. I understand that they have people to pay but they only have 210 employees (don’t believe me, here is a link tho their company page: www.celsys.com/en/company/). You will also see that Celsys makes a revenue of 3.076 billion JPY, which is a little over $21 million in usd, but that’s only as of June 2022. They have recently been getting a lot of sponsors and stuff. So they have been getting a lot of sales. So it is likely that they may have more. So they do make more enough to pay employees, but they absolutely do not have enough to make the business move they are making currently. They’re probably only along $1-3million more as compared to June. There is a very large portion of people who will either boycott csp, or will not upgrade their software. With this whole update pass thing, it is a way to try to take more money out of people which is the thing that makes it greedy. They know that and that’s why they are doing it. But this new business design is also done very stupidly. As said, they are going to loose a lot of customers. They may be thinking it will be similar to photoshop. But the difference between csp and photoshop is that photoshop is intertwined into thousands of schools and is used in many industries, while csp is not. Whoever they got this idea from, they should not have acted on it.
As I was saying, this decision they are making is out of greed and stupidity. It will not work. And DO NOT PITY THEM. They should learn from their business mistakes considering this is the very first actual business mistake they are probably coming across. If we do not pity them they will end up catering to the customers again if they really do care about their business. It will both benefit their business and the customers.
Thanks for reading my Ted Talk lol.
Edit: This also is just something I thought of. You see, I love clip studio paint, and will continue using it. With the update pass. If they really want to keep that, they should make it so you don’t loose your features if you can’t pay for another one or don’t want another one the next year. This way you will permanently have your features, and clip studio paint can have their update pass. Basically if you want the next years new features in addition to the ones you have now you can buy another update pass, but have the choice not to without being kicked back to the version without the additional features you rightfully paid for.
I’m not fully against the update pass. I’m just against them taking all the features you paid for away if you don’t purchase a new update pass every year.
You can wait for full releases and buy those licenses (and get the features of earlier releases + new release features).
You don't have to get the sub and "features on the fly".
Right?
The problem is that this is an encroaching trend where corporations have decided to upend the concept of software ownership and Celsys has joined in on the trend. Even before this move towards a subscription model CPS already had some very strict limitations imposed on users. The perpetual license model only allows for the installation of the program on two computers and having to "deregister" one of those if you had to move your install to a third PC. that is a draconian policy. I had a catastrophic SSD failure where the Windows drive got completely wiped, I had to reinstall the OS and Clip Studio again but because the original activation was wiped this new activation now counts as a "second computer" despite the fact it was the same hardware.
The issue is that this type of change removes all agency from the end user and it is the corporation which gets to dictate and control how and in which conditions the software gets to be used. Worse still, because Celsys is moving to a "service" model they can at any moment decide, for reasons completely beyond the user's control, that they can deny service, deactivate accounts and cut access to the software at their whim.
You are paying for a tool you don't own nor have real control over, you better believe that'll make a lot of people salty.
Features I want in CSP: GPU performance optimization, more than 8bit per channel files.
i don't have a problem with them charging a fee to keep the product i'm using maintained and updated. I have a problem with them forcing me into a subscription in cases where i _DON'T WANT, or CAN'T AFFORD_ their updates. they should allow one time purchases for version 2.1, 2.2, 2.3, ect, but saying, "no, you have to pay all this money monthly and receive things you don't want" is absolutely absurd. There are ways to charge money and sustain updates and development that don't involve a monthly subscription. in this case choice should be with the buyer, not the seller.
When companies have no new innovative ideas to offer and the application already covers most of what people are wanting it to do, they propose a switch the subscription model
I've always despised subscription models as a whole for countless reasons. I cracked Clip Studio a year ago, saw that I liked it, saw it was 49.99 for a lifetime, you know what? Sure, I'll pay for it. And now this happens.
If version 2.0 comes out and I think I'll like to have it I'll just crack it again and do it again on every update I think I'll need like I do with Photoshop, I don't care, I ain't paying for subscriptions.
I’m gonna be honest.
The iOS/Android version served as a warning, and we all ignored it.
The biggest issue is if your buy a version 2.0 licence you then have to buy an update pass to get version 2.1 and beyond. I can't recall any software that has a hybrid license/subscription like this.
Normally when you buy version 1.0 you get all updates until version 2.0. You buy version 2.0 you get all the updates to version 3.0. It's always worked this way.
The licence plus "update subcription" is very iffy IMO.
The update pass is only for if you want live new feature updates between major versions. If you can wait on new features, yo I can just buy 3.0 and get all those features then instead of subscribing.
Each major version will have a its own perpetual license.
Clip's new feature for 2.0 is a new way to get more money. That's it. That's why they are already planning 3.0. It's now about how big of an update or how many features are added. It's about planning releases so they can get paid every time a new "upgrade" comes out.
This is how all software works.
You are a professional artist who makes really good money so of course you can afford it. Most people went to Clip Studio because they couldn't afford Photoshop's crazy monthly fees or software price in general. Now it seems Clip Studio is going for the money grab like Photoshop has always done. When you invest literally years into learning a software to try to master it and become a professional they have control of you because then you are reliant on them. This is why it's such a crappy thing when they abuse their power.
1) You can keep your version that you bought. It'll be a couple years before 1.x stops being supported.
2. Each major version will have a one time buy perpetual license. So you don't have to subscribe for those feature updates. You could wait and just buy the next major (x.0) version if the new features appeal to you. If they don't you can even skip versions.
@@izumichan31 That sounds great but if you are an amateur competing with professional artists you need to use the same tools they do if you want to keep up and reach their level. If amateurs get priced out of this like they have been with Photoshop it just increases the divide between amateur and pro.
The whole reason folks jumped from Photoshop to Clip was price.
You might be able to afford it, but many can't, especially after shelling out $ 200+ to buy it outright.
And you can still use the one you bought for $200.
What's the problem?
I'm not renting software. If I like your software I pay for it and then it's mine forever. Of course im not expecting you to put the new features in the old software otherwise you stop being profitable. When I decide that I need the new features of the new software then I will buy the new software, otherwise I will stick with my old perfectly working one.
Subscriptions work for things like Disney+ because you don't expect to own the content or use it to make money/content of your own. But clip studio is a product and a tool. Those things shouldn't be subscription based imo. And people equating subscriptions for tools and products with subscriptions for services is the reason why car companies think they can make seat warmers subscription based and get away with it. Besides software I don't know of any product based subscriptions that the product is reliant on to function and that everyone uses like Netflix. Because no one would buy that. But hey give it time to be the new normal and anyone who complained won't matter right? because they'll either buy it or get another job. But subscriptions are scams imo
You can still use "tool v1" and make a living out of it (on sale it was $25!).
If you like "tool v2" , you can buy it or stick with "tool v1".
Sometimes in the past magazines had subscription and depended on those to get going on.
Still, we still don't know the big "how much".
If the price for these plans are right, it could work out for everyone.
@@TheMemagNeman No it won't. I understand for many this is just one more subscription but Subscription itself is the problem. With magazines you own a physical copy but with subscriptions software you're paying for something imaginary. With csp you're technically paying to WORK. How long will those earlier versions be available and supported and workable on current hardware? All they have to do is decide to change to subscription only after "testing" the waters and people accept their move. Then instead of paying once you're paying 100 times more for as long as you use the software. I'd rather save up a couple $100 then pay $1000s over years to follow my passion. It's not about the price it's about the cost. It's anti consumer. The more people who accept subscriptions the more things are going to be subscriptions
@@orichalcumheart I am a long time user of CSP. I paid $25 for my first (PC) license,
used it for many years and made tons of jobs which made me much more money than what I have invested in the software.
Later I upgraded to EX just to show appreciation for the development. It already has saved me hundreds of bucks which I'd have to spend
on "standard" packages I was bound to use during those jobs.
I also don't like subscriptions, and I will probably stay at v1 if I don't see stuff I need in v2.
No one forces me to buy anything, no one is taking v1 from me.
I can work like I always have. I don't have to consume new versions.
When it gets old and unsupported by modern hardware, I 'll switch over to new version or new software.
I don't see the need for drama here.
To me pricing is the key. If these subs are few bucks, I can afford it if I see that I need those features.
If it's expensive I'll stay put with the v1.
@@TheMemagNeman I'm not saying anyone is being forced. And again the problem is in subscriptions itself not really with csp. If companies as a whole see that more products and tool can be sold through subscription then everything is for rent and not to own. That's my problem with it anyway. It's not about "not liking them" I think subscription products (not services) are ethically questionable for the reasons I've stated. There was a time people didn't have to pay for land or housing but now those things are accepted and expected. Someone will probably buy the subscription because it's cheap and not even realize that 5 years down the line they paid 4 or 5 times as much as the softwares worth. And when you have money or are skilled and marketable enough to make a profit from your work then I guess it wouldnt matter to pay oh so much a month but when your starting out and/or poor enough that you cant afford something monthly then thats not worth it. (Especially if there aren't any new features that that person uses to justify continued payment). And if every software company does subscription because they know they can get away with it then there won't be another company to go to to avoid subscriptions. On another note CSP gained its following by gathering people who didn't like adobes subscription. This is a betrayal to those customers. I know they're not making it fully subscription now but if no one complains who's to stop them from doing just that? Will it be worth the drama when the new (reportedly not announced) features aren't worth it? Or when similar software companies (not really sure of any others) do the same thing? But again my worries lie with the grand scheme. When companies get away with things for prophet they lose what makes them great. When apple realized they could get away with selling a new phone every year with only an improved camera they stopped innovating. When Google realized they could sell spots on their search list the search engine stop being useful. And their like companies followed them. I love and trust csp and don't want that to change. If they follow adobes lead then they will change.
1. Just have people pay every new version.
Subscriptions stink.
2. The app is indeed a fully functional app and is good the way it is.
3. The way subscriptions are going with worse and worse content as time goes on I may start buying shows I like instead of just moving from subscriptions. But recently there is no subscriptions that stay. Except audio books
The issue stems from allowing companies like this an "in", sure the price seems all well and affordable now and the benefits of the subscriptions seem worth it; but just you wait for another year or two for the annual or bi-annual price increase. If your phone/internet service provider or gas/electricity provider can molest the contents of your wallet with impunity with ever increasing service costs, what makes you think that the CSP devs will be any better?
Because they gave updates and kept services like TIPS/ASSETS/ASK free for years?
10 or 15 years ago I was saying to myself, Illustrator and Photoshop are pretty much feature complete. I don't imagine that there's almost anything else that I need. 15 years later, there are definitely, lots of new things that I would miss if I went back to CS3. And the same should be true of Clip Studio. I mean, I do a certain amount of work in Clip Studio but never finish any project in Clip Studio. To finalize anything, I need Adobe. So if I try to think of what's "missing" from Clip Studio, I can just run down a list of what Photoshop has. All of that is missing from Clip Studio, for me. Not for everybody else I'm sure.
Why is no one mentioning the iPad and procreate? Let's face it, that single combo has made life hell for these art appreciations.
It's true!
I mean Procreate is iPad exclusive(I refuse to buy Apple products) and Apple pretty much owns procreate. On that other note Apple also requires other software devs to pay them a 30% cut out of each purchase plus there's a reoccuring fee to stay on the store. So Apple doesn't make it easy for competition to exist on its store. Especially when the app store is the only way to install on ipad iirc.
People specifically bought CSP to avoid subscriptions so this is a bit of a betrayal. As a minor with little to no income I can't afford subscriptions and I hate that that's what so many programs, and services in general convert to. It works wonders for streaming services (music/tv/etc.) but for art programs it cuts of those who don't have a lot of money. Art programs are tools that you have to learn and get used to and you can't just switch to an another that easily. This was a bad move for CELSYS and I hope they come up with something better.
You can still use your CSP licence, no one is taking it away from you. It's not subscription exclusive.
There are 2 things I need to know before I decide if I want to upgrade or not, the first one is the price, if it's as expensive as Photoshop I don't think I would be paying for it, the second is the new features, they are focusing to much on 3D models and I don't use them, so I would prefer they improve their brush engine, text tools and maybe adding some filters and special effects for animation. Nowadays the software is good for me so they really need to give some good reasons to pay for the latest version.
Adobe is 1000% better suite of apps. Just so much value. CLP really will strugle with that.
Celsys should have announced the price, I think that would have tampened the reaction quite a bit and given people the right expectations.
We have some vague info about the price. From their announcement: "The Update Passes will be sold for a lower price than Monthly Usage Plans. At the current time, there are no plans to significantly change the pricing of the perpetual version." The current Monthly Usage Plan is $25 per year, so by that logic, the Upgrade Pass will be around $2 a month. (I hope they are referring to the single device Monthly Usage Plans.)
If the information they are putting out is correct, that means a $2/month charge for the Update Pass, plus the $50 one time purchase to upgrade to Version 2.
@@trowawayacc CSP was the better bang for your buck when you can buy a version for $25 versus the Adobe subscription but they want to price themselves next to Adobe without providing as many services. At that point, people will find another program or just go back to using Adobe products
I'm mainly salty because the launcher's connection to the internet seems to randomly decide to stop working at the drop of a pin, and if you're like me and haven't activated your new license yet when it happens you're SOL. 11 days and counting.
I don't understand why they don't do both subscriptions and one time payment models at once
they do. which make this move weird
Brad hits all the right points here - creating professional-level software is expensive. Maintaining it so it doesn't break on new OS versions - that, too. However, I don't understand Celsys pretending to reinvent the wheel with this upgrade system and creating a mess that benefits no one. Reasonable upgrading, in software, used to be this way: if you bought a 1.x license, you get all free upgrades & support until 2.0, from where if you commit to upgrade, you can do so at a discount using your valid 1.0 license, and so on. Why complicate things? Ah yeah, the subscription model... is too tempting for software companies to insure themselves some fixed revenue - nevermind that most of us hate being nickel-and-dimed every month for software. Just because Adobe could pull it off didn't mean all others have to follow suit. There's one important thing that is still lacking from CSP - proper CMYK support. Are they planning to roll it for 2.0? Is it worth subscribing for this alone? I'm not sure...
The problem with subscritipons is they start charging little and as they get popular charge more and more, exactly what Adobe has been doing for years. I will sticky with Krita, SAI, Medibang and FireAlpaca, I'm a hobbyist and I can't afford subscriptions
The issue for them, and Adobe, and whatever Corel are calling themselves now, is that barring any major compatibility bug with future OS editions their software as is has long since meet 99% of the needs of their users. Their software has been able to achieve anything the vast majority of digital artists actually need on a daily basis for the last few years.
Hell, the amount of Photoshop digital painting tutorials I look at from a few years back which are still fulfilable to a high visual standard if you are running CS versions says it all
Here are a couple of problems I have with their announcement. One: if you stop paying their subscription service you don't get to keep the updates you got while you were paying. I think that is absolute BS. Yes, that's how subscription services normally work: you need to keep paying to keep having access. But this is also why people are annoyed by them. I'm sure people would be far more willing to entertain the idea if they were allowed to keep the updates. Compare Playstation Plus with Xbox Games with Gold. The former only allows you to keep games as long as you keep paying while the latter lets you keep them for good, and the latter is considered by far the better service.
Another issue is their response. They've basically refused to acknowledge there's an issue. They put a generic "We've seen your feedback and taking note" PR response and then they simply pretended there was no issue at all. If they had at least tried to explain their reasoning for this change it might have lowered the complaints, but they didn't even try and to this day they like to cover their ears and pretend they don't hear us. I think people are rightly upset by this "We don't care about your opinion" attitude. If they don't care about us, why should we care about them?
Great video, for some reason the audio at 6:43 was muted for a few seconds
I generally agree with the whole business model side to keep things afloat and am empathetic towards those needs. Here's the issue I see in regards to CSP, and keep in mind, I love CSP. They haven't really shown much progress with a subscription model on their tablet platform. Despite years of subscriptions on those platforms, the interface continues to to be janky for touch-based systems and pales in comparison to the advances seen on a much cheaper app like procreate. Recently, they finally introduced an official liquify brush... and it's just not that good. I hope 2.0 is a revamp of the interface that improves performance on things like large brushes and real time transformations that provides options for touch-based tablet interfaces. However, they haven't really shown anything to inspire confidence in these much needed areas.
I use Comic Draw on the iPad, from Plasq software. It's not as feature rich as Clip Studio, but it has some features that CS lacks (you can write your script in the program and simply drag the text into your comic), and is designed specifically to work on a tablet, with its smaller screen size. Also, only $10. Downside, there haven't been any updates for a couple of years.
They've been giving us (small) updates for years now, for free. So long as the pricing is not outrageous, and we get new features (I'd like better type layout), I don't mind. I would probably pay for upgrades anyway. Occasionally I'll upgrade software I don't even use that much, just to support the developers. You want outrageous? Autodesk charged about $1500 per year for single apps (more than Adobe charges for its entire suite), and they don't always deliver new features worth mentioning.
conclusion: Celsys probably need to hire a new PR (or simply hire Brad for quicker solution)
Tbh, it's my first year using CSP subscription for android device, and so far so good
I saw they have a discount 40% off, iirc, for yearly subscription too
Hopefully they'll keep doing this even after that 2.0 subs out
I respect having the 2 options: One-time payment AND subscription.
I bought v1.0 with One-time payment and HAD access to every update. I understand that I need to pay for a full v2.0 change (as it was with Photoshop in the past), but here's my problem, NOW, if I buy v2.0, I DON'T GET 2.x updates. That's the problem. I can understand payments for whole number change in version. But not for in-version updates if I'm taking the One-time payment.
Of course, this FORCES you on to the subscription model. That's the problem.
Hi. Sorry. I can't find the "all devices" subscription Where can I find it? Thank you.
I'm positively livid at the way they announced this and the announcement of a subscription at all.
CSP's biggest selling point has been "Pay one time" it's why I bought it and why I ever recommended it.
Furthermore,
They have a constant stream of money from the asset store too, people have been buying the gold currency to buy assets so claiming they dont get enough money seems unrealistic.
They aren't starving so yes to me this looks far more like pure greed.
I'm against subscription based services and I always will be and I won't recommend csp with this absolute shitshow they've been doing. But the announcement and handling of the situation has been so bad I've seen teenagers on Roblox manage their community better and that really ticks me off.
People don't have to starve to make decisions to charge more for their services.
You can still use the version you paid for "one time" (v1).
After spending like an hour discussing the blog post with others when it came out, and we finally properly understood what they were doing - I realized I really don't care about the change nor does my wallet care about the change. I'll buy the perpetual license when 2.0 comes out (still using 2 year license I got with my wacom tablet) and that's that. I'll still pay once, for a great and fully complete drawing program. Just like I planned to do for 1.0 after my license runs out. Nothing changes. I won't miss whatever new features they add afterwards because I'll never have had access to them in the first place.
I recently started with CSP, but now im not sure if i should continue and just buy perpetual license for ver.1 or maybe switch to krita and learn that?
Clip studio has always been a pro alternative to adobe. When they make these announcements that is something that they need to keep in mind. The first thing, that came to mind when I heard the news was “just like adobe, huh?“ and regardless of the truth, that’s what I feel is a part of the reaction.
I think that in addition to making new features they need to be clear and distinguish themselves from adobe
Well they've already said each major version will have a perpetual license. So unlike Adobe you will still be able to flat out buy 2.0 3.0 4.0 5.0 and so on. You don't even have to buy each version. You could skip versions.
Hello Brad. Thanks for this. Im new to digital art. May I also ask if what drawing app you are using in day to day basis? Is its clip art or different?
Hoping for your response.
I like working on CSP both on PC and on my tablet. That's why I got the subscription for my tablet after i got perpetual license for PC (which i use for final editing), i don't need have to be glued to 1 place. The thing that I don't kinda like and know about this new subscription model for 2.0 version, which gives me slight paranoia. If I don't get subscription, will i lose more usefull stuff? Will I not be able to use my cloud storage? That's the issue. And even with the version 1.0 ending sometime, will i lose all those useful features?
I love the software and I don't mind the subscription model on iPad. The thing that concerns me is that a subscription model requires an authentication server AND Internet access. If one or the other goes down or if Apple/Google go down, will I still be able to use the full version? The update pass throws another wrench in the mix. Will my Clip Perpetual files still work 2.X if my iPad can't connect to the Internet while I'm traveling. And afterwards, will I be able to open files from my iPad in Clip Perpetual without layers or features breaking?
These are the questions you should ask on ASK forum.
Also we don't know for sure if version 1.x or 2.0, the one time payment version, will be supported in the future, but I want to think it will be, I have a Macromedia Flash Version from the 90's or early 00's and it still works fine, and yeah it is old, but you can still make animations in it.
That is understandable, but they could have simply make a DLC styled purchase for feature updates. Them locking feature updates on a yearly sub, only for all your updates gained to be taken away after one moment of stop paying the update pass is just asinine and dumb. There is also the problem of ownership in subscription based models. You don't really own it, you rent it.
They indeed kept the one-time purchase but only for the base versions. Updates are now rented, which is also dumb.
I'm going to buy Samsung tab s8 ultra soon and for that tablet I need to buy subscription for CSP anyway. I just wonder can I share that subcription plan with my PC or do I need to get 2 different plans?
My biggest issue I think is the update pass subscription part and that that's the only way to *get* the updates.
Paying for new features and updates? I'm 100% cool with that, but the subscription as the only access to feature updates is what I'm not so fond of.
I *do* think - and I'm saying this AS an artist who lives on limited means - that people are flipping out a little too much for what's happening. I do have to say that I think it's being blown out of proportion and people need to step back and take a look at things with slightly better perspective overall.
Can we use Samsung dex to animate in windows laptops??
The only silver lining is that we can still use the program that we bought, until the last free update version
But when will this update be unsuful. How long will it take for this version to not work anymore?
I saw people wanting to upgrade to the EX version and then they did this, and now people.dont feel safe anymore
People were going to pay for a update, and now they do this crap.
Is disappointing
-(Sorry for the long post, you can skip to the bottom for the short version:)
You know I’m going to say you slightly missed the thing that really really gets us upset here. Yes some people are upset by the mere word subscription. I’m not one of them I have it on my tablet for subscription and perpetual on my desktop and laptop.
The issue can be shown on the chart you put up for a moment. When you get the new perpetual license for 2.0. You get the feature updates for 2.1.0 then you don’t get any more for your license. They have three feature updates planned per new version. At x.1.x x.2.x x.3.x. You only get up to 30% of the new features for your perpetual software. You can buy an update pass which gives you all of the latest versions and it is yearly. But if you stop paying you go all the way back to the last perpetual license shown on their payment plan. So when you buy 2.0 you don’t get 2.0 you get 1.0 plus a set of 1/3 new features. Unless you get the update pass, but when you stop you go back to your previous license whether that is 1.x or 2.1. It’s not an upgrade to get those new features permanently. So a lot of us are looking at this like. “Then why buy 2.0? if the only way to get all of 2.0 is to wait till 3.0 which contains all of 2.0’s updates, then I will just wait till 3.0”
That is part of the reason 3.0 is mentioned on the chart. The other reason is 1.0 will be discontinued for service updates when 3.0 comes out. You keep till it breaks but they won’t add fixes.
So what this does mean to us is you can’t have what you pay for. If you buy 2.0 you don’t get all of 2.0. It is essentially a pricey $50 - $200 demo disk for 2.0. It feels like they are trying to phase out all perpetual users of the software, but keeping a perpetual option in to placate us or worse milk those that don’t know, dry.
If it was just subscription or perpetual license where you pay for a new version for each version that comes out like the old Adobe CS 3, 4, 5 days where you buy the product and get all the updates and features for that specific version. It wouldn’t be a problem. You get essentially (in this example) Adobe CS 2 & 1/3 when you buy CS 3. Unless you pay a subscription on top. If you cancel you go back to CS 2 & 1/3. If just want all of Adobe CS3, buy Adobe CS 4 because it is CS 3 & 1/3.
This is major problem for me because my tablet is subscription but my computer is not. If I had to just buy 2.0 I would do it, but I don’t get all of 2.0 if there is a feature in 2.2.0 that I use on my tablet the file becomes incompatible with versions that don’t use those features, like my pc. (This info is buried in the FAQ). I use the EX ($200 and $75/year) version for animation and my animation minor. What this means is that I can face the issue of starting something on my computer transferring it to my tablet but unable to send it back. I got my tablet so I can do remote stuff and on days when my health makes me unable to use the computer.
So either I pay the subscription three times ($225 yearly) or I just don’t use clip anymore. I’ll move on to Krita or some other software that I can animate and illustrate, they might have to be separate which is fine. But I already struggle with that pricing. I’m trying to attend school without paying any loans.
If I don’t upgrade the assets store will eventually be filled with unusable assists for users like me split between 1.x.x 2.1.0 and those with the update pass and subscription models of the softwares that reach 2.2.0 and further. They are now going to be bug fixing and maintaining 3 different versions of the software. So I’m not sure if it’s actually about paying the programmers here if they are tripling the potential work load. We love our people who made this awesome software, that allowed me to stop paying $30 a month for Adobe for school (that is the student discount). I can’t afford that.
TL; DR
You can buy a subscription to get all the features regardless of your previous version (s), if you stop paying you go back to your most recent perpetual that may be back to 1.x.x for a lot of people. If you buy a perpetual license in the future you only get the features of the previous versions and 30% of what that current version’s features are. If you want to own all of 2.0 wait and buy 3.0 that is the only way to actually acquire 2.0 as a one time license. 2.0 license as it stands stops getting features at 2.1.0, but the final set of features will come with 2.3.0, it will get service updates though so it keeps functioning. 3.0 shows to be the same model. Existing Subscriptions are automatically updated to the latest versions.
i've been using the software since 2015 and I agree, everything I need is already there and probably will for many years to come, so the decision to switch to a subscription model is not something to do right now. I still didn't download the version with liquify. And Yes, the announcement of 2.0 could have been better. It was supposed to be a big moment for everybody that likes the software, but ended up hyped by people trying to get views on their channels or sites with half true statements. Really nice to finally see reasonable points, thanks man xD
When I first heard about the uproar about the CLIP STUDIO subscription service I thought there must be some sort of seedy scandal, like sneakily charging my account for the subscription when I bought the one time payment, but no. it just seems like a company with a good product charging $0.99/month for future updates. I don't understand the rage.
Hi Brad! I've decided to buy the samsung s6 tab lite 2022 thanks to your videos, and I find this video highly informative! Keep on making more content like this please! More power to you! ❤🔥✌💯
There are so many features I haven't mastered in version 1 yet that I have no need for more. Heck, I only recently discovered how powerful the fill tool is
General question, with newer updates, can you buy them, and keep them, or when the subscription ends, it dissapears?
like, buys 2.0, doesnt buy 2.1, buys 2.2, do we keep 2.2 after buying it?
It would be nice if license owners got a discount...
Celsys’s roll-out announcement was terrible.
My initial comment was that I bought EX for my desktop and I pay the subscription cost for the regular version on my iPad. It is my favorite drawing program. I also have Adobe because there's a nice teacher discount.
I use Final Draft for writing. Sometimes I’ve upgraded and sometimes I haven’t because the features weren’t worth it. I enjoy having that option, and it seems Celsys seems to offer that choice.
I’ll use V1 until it isn’t usable, and then I’ll decide.
or... you could paint in Light Brush, a neat web tool. If you don't require vectors, then it's a very solid choice with many interesting features.
I was about to choose one app to draw on my ipad. Between CSP and Procreate. Knowing about this, and after read some comments, I think I'll just go with Procreate.
Did i understand correctly, that when you buy 3.0 you will have all features from 2.0 to 3.0?
Also, I think you said it perfectly I also 100% believe that the reason they are doing this is because they are about to introduce a pretty good new feature.
As someone who was also in software in a past life, I have another take. Subscriptions lower the barrier to entry. $5 now vs $60 now is a big win.
A better plan would've been announcing that v1 will stop receiving feature updates and future versions (v2, v3, v4 etc) will be released every 3-5 years. If you wanna remain with v1 then it's yours forever, and when you buy new versions you also get free updates till the next version
Great to see you again, Brad!
People are not looking at the information Celsys has provided and instead are just freaking out over the word "subscription." Currently, a single device plan subscription for CSP Pro is $25, per YEAR. Adobe is $20 per MONTH. That is a tenth of the price.
In addition to that, Celsys noted that, "Update Passes will be sold for a lower price than Monthly Usage Plans. At the current time, there are no plans to significantly change the pricing of the perpetual version." That means that the Update Pass will be lower than $25/year, the current Montly Usage Plan price for a single device. (Unless they are being sneaky and referring to the 4-device plan.)
The perpetual license price will also not significantly change, so you'll be paying $50 for Verion 2.0, and less than $25 per YEAR for the Update Pass. I am on a limited income (disabled, work part time) and I can afford $25 a year. It is not a large cost; it's less than I'm paying for two months of Netflix. People are assuming that "subscription" automatically means Photoshop or Netflix levels of monthly cost, when in reality, we're dealing with $2 a month. Look at the information provided and not be disingenuous about the potential subscription cost.
don't worry, price can always be increased later after people get used to the idea of subscription
Im on ipad already so this doesnt affect me, but what I find funny is despite them adding animation to CSP there are still features missing from Anime Studio which I bought like 15 years ago, but they're charging a subscription fee to get those inevitable updates to catch up.
I really hope they add more animation features
I had CSP when i did art on my old desktop. I'm still debating to get it or not. Besides Procreate CSP is one of the best art programs I've ever used.
Yo super Brad, 6:53 has an small glitch. Good script and balanced take on Software News, Keep it up!
Wow, having the software reference a folder of your own work and then creating ai-generated backgrounds for you based on your style? I'll be shocked if that isn't a feature in major art software within the next few years, if it isn't in one already. That would be super helpful for quick projects and inspiration/practice
Except when another artist gets a piece of your art, and make his whole career + the career of his children and their children off of you style.
@@haidutinop8546 Everything with good intentions can also be exploited.
the thing is i dont have problem paying for more stuff. but the thing is all those stuff will be gone once i stop paying it. that's not a good idea at all
5:00 then Celsys should’ve pumped the breaks on having no less than FOUR 50% discount sales every year. They should have also increased the price of the perpetual license to at least keep up with inflation. The Program is worth $300 (at least). If money and solvency are big concerns, they should’ve stopped undercharging for their product as Step 1, not jumped immediately to a subscription model with end-of-life updates for older versions and EA-esque cash-grab “Update Pass” gimmicks.
I mean, I really like using CSP because it's very easy for me to use , i know where to find every tool or brush and know how the software works. That's why i think i'll stay on the version 1 , cause i would propably need to find all the settings or tools that i use and just learn the software again. + if there were new things, that would make it harder to find everything.