I can attest that if you are an outspoken woman with strong opinions, you will be ghosted by many, many of your female friends (Don't write op-eds if you want to keep friends). I don't get it. If you disagree, just say so, and we can hash it out and still be friends. I don't have to agree with somebody on everything to be their friend. Good grief, how do we grow and mature if we are never around people who challenge our beliefs? Fun fact: I have been ghosted on both the secular and Christian sides.
We're just not very good at dealing with ideas that run against the grain of our worldview, aren't we? People like Paul help me to deal with opposition with understanding, setting aside my malice.
"Please, I have this belief and I don't want to lose it so please can I find someone who believes it too" Or alternatively, "Please, I have this belief and I can't get rid of it, nothing else makes sense, so please can I find someone who believes it too"
I had to wait in misery for 4 years before I could find a new religious community to embody. Sucked! But they aren't totally me, TLC meets my need to express myself ;-))
It's hard to talk about Right/Left stuff because there are lots of games being played but also people keep bumping into the terrifying reality that there is a Right & Wrong and generations of "intelligent" people have been hammered into committing to avoiding acceptance of something that is plain to all of us as true and correct.
27:41 Yes this is so true. Non-political spaces cannot exist unless you want truly non-religious places, which are impossible to truly have without complete arbitrariness and/or massive amounts of various forms of violence. I appreciate you saying there’s no getting around politics, while encouraging boundaries and grace where needed.
I see several possibilities: 1. Religion calls me to be neutral in politics. 2. My political positions are determined by my religious convictions. 3. My religious positions are determined by political ideology. 4. My political ideology is my religion. The only potential options for a faithful Christian are 1 and 2. The problem is that there are times when 1 becomes unsustainable. And 3 and 4 are only different because 4 is honest. Everyone has “culture war fatigue”. Because the far left has been waging it for decades. But not standing against them means they will win. And then we will have nowhere left to hide. You may not be interested in the culture war, but the culture war is interested in you.
Off Topic: Can you put Denny on a t-shirt, sweatshirt, or even a nice hoodie for those of us who don't do hats? Or for those of us who are a bit preppy, how about a line of polo shirts with Denny as the cute little emblem instead of the polo pony??? Those would sell really well on the east coast....
I feel like Paul is really clicking again with his videos. After a lull due to very understandable disruptions, I think he is finding his groove again and creating tighter content (tighter in the lightly edited Paul sense, not in the pro UA-camr sense). Keep it up!
26:40 et seq. She is right about ths all to common misuse of the term "community". When did this get started? I was wondering just the other day whether, in contrast to the alphabet "community" there is a "heterosexual community" or a "traditional family community".
Ah yes, this is exactly what I was hearing Andrew Gold saying earlier; he's been doing a channel about Harry and Megan and He has just put out a video "I just can't do this anymore." He isn't stopping UA-cam but he is going over to his other channel Heretics where he can talk about different things than how he got captured talking only about Harry and Megan and maybe all things Royals (I don't know, I never watched it.) But he is talking about being captured by his audience and what they expect, well, demand.
4:00 Re: The similarity between Jesus and John Wayne and Shepherds for Sale. I wanted to note some thoughts I've been having about the 'right' of evangelicalism, particularly coming from the anti-big Eva/elite people. (I think of this as a movement that is picking up on the Trumpian rhetoric against the Elites or the Mainstream in a similar way that left wing Christians pick up the rhetoric of decolonization etc.) Its really something that the representative people being critiqued are Tim Keller or Gavin Ortland. Whatever these people's faults, these are very conservative thinkers. From a certain vantage point, this represents a movement literally eating itself. In the pursuit of 'purity' it is set on 'canceling' anyone who seems to be making noises that are out of line with the ever shifting conservative standards. Like the Communist movement famously descended into warring factions over increasingly subtle disagreements in doctrine, these movements on the right and left seem to be infected by a similar hellish propensity to eat their own. Something similar happens in very online Ortho-bro circles where the key charge is that some given claim is "Modernist". Like the progressive movement has an infinite horizon of progress to instantiate, and an infinite number of prevailing practices and beliefs to 'problematize'--this new right wing movement, at its worst, has an infinite past to dredge up, and an infinite number of prevailing practices and beliefs to problematize as covertly 'progressive' or 'Modernist'. If we have been co-opted by 'Modernity' or 'Progressivism', when did the problem start? What do you want to roll back? Should we question gay liberation, women's rights, civil rights, the Enlightenment, the Reformation--if the whole 'tree' of Modernity is 'rotten at the roots', where does the questioning end? I am not suggesting that these are unanswerable questions, but I am noting a 'factitious' tendency.
I’m interested in Jesus saying that if you are forced one mile, go two. It seems like if the system is troubled one should find a separate path or go against it or find a different one. But if the healing comes through even engaging and helping within the system, then that should be where we go, not for the sake of the system as system, but for the sake of salvation. The paradox is in loving my enemies I can find healing, whereas in cancelling them I can only find pain.
I vote Bronze Age ... Quality Metal! The election of 1824 was like 2020. In both cases the anti-Establishment candidate was cancelled. Nothing new under the Sun. King Saul tried to cancel David.
Aahhh man, that Peter Hitchens interview still makes me laugh. Regarding the covid thing, If something smells of fish it's because it's fishy. The whole covid thing had that smell. "an' again, this whole right left thing is broken" lmao!
On political labels - I'm thoroughly convinced by the podcasts I've listened to by the Lewis Brothers on the Myth of Left and Right and the traditional political spectrum. If you feel like left and right don't mean anything I'd recommend checking them out.
Even more overlap here. A big part of their thesis of why the political spectrum is a myth is because a spectrum assumes a single variable that differentiates at the end of the spectrum. And obviously politics is a lot more complicated than a single variable. The Hitchens comments about the proper role of government (it's not all or nothing, but issue by issue) would be another overlap.
I think I have this almost right.. one time when Louise P was talking to Justin B she said something along the lines that she was socially liberal and morally conservative.
If the opposition are principalities & powers, the "spiritual wickedness in high places" rather than other people, that helps us to overcome our own fallen wrathfulness, no?
My Facebook is much more useful and grounded than other social medial (other than YT). I follow organizations and local groups that are useful to me. I stay connected to remote family and friends. You can block or ignore the things you don’t want to see.
I skimmed through the first chapter of the book *Shepherds for Sale*, glanced at the names of the other chapters, and then returned the book. The chapter titles made it clear that the author was going to cover every culture war topic, in the same way she did in the first chapter.
Well, I try my best to be just like I am But everybody wants you to be just like them They say sing while you slave And I just get bored I ain't gonna work on Maggie's farm, no more. Bob Dylan - of course
In 100 years we have moved from an R-dominant society to a D-dominant society. Back then per President Coolidge, the business of America was business. Today the business of America is politics. As a garrulous old man, this is part of why I hate America in the 21st century ;-(
34:00 the simplicity heuristic that we each inevitably apply can either be done by sacrificing quality, or sacrificing quantity. I have chosen the latter. Most choose the former.
I am strongly convinced that the evil principle prevailing in this world leads the unrecognized spiritual need into perdition if it is not counteracted either by real religious insight or by the protective wall of human community.
Glen Powell in the white shirt made my wife think of something else but different strokes I suppose. Also you're always welcome to mention this guy. 😅 First
35:15 For some reason this triggered a thought in me this morning. I wonder what the average lifetime of a local Church from various traditions is. That would be an interesting thing to find out. My hypothesis would be that non-denominational churches tend to have shorter lifetimes overall compared to more well established denominations; while Roman Catholic and EO have the longest. If this data exists somewhere, I would love to see it.
Non-denominational churches are largely comprised of hemorrhage from the mainline traditions - as it stands today it is a very recent phenomena. In regards to lifespans there are local Lutheran churches that out live local Catholic and Orthodox. There are Orthodox churches that get established for a few decades and then are sold to be hindu temples. It's not so clear cut at this stage other than particular ethnic clusters brought in respective christian traditions. What will be interesting to see is where the chips fall in the next 50 years. We are seeing the collapse of the Mainline happening real time and it's going to get even messier but I'm skeptical that the 'non-denominational' is going to be a lasting and serious player in the religious marketplace. Anything founded in opposition struggles iteratively scaling. Religion that will and has always had staying power is that which is not vague and one that fosters inter-generational cohesion - which the non-demons have completely failed in both accounts. The recent wave of trad catholic and orthodox conversions is too earlier to tell if these guys will be firmly established in their tradition 30 years down the road with grandchildren in the same church.
The terms conservative and liberal are obviously terms that shift with time. Daum and many like her want to conserve a version of the liberalism that lived in 80s-00s. Thus after the shift that was made clear and “final” in Trump, she is a conservative to many. It, of course, depends on what you want to conserve. Pageau and Rohlin, for example, are medieval conservatives. Conservative doesn’t just mean Rush Limbaugh who wanted to preserve a certain kind of 19th and 20th century America that was represented on the political ideas of Friedman, Goldwater, Reagan and Thatcher. Whatever gains a kind of cultural light hegemony that is moving the culture toward something and away from something else - like the woke progressivism of the last decade - will define in many ways what is conservative. And when that defining hegemony is more “progressive” and extreme in nature, the more “conservatives”there will appear to be.
@25:00 Actually, LDS has the highest biblical literacy (higher than evangelicals) and overall religious knowledge when compared to Christian traditions, according to the pew research study called "Who knows what about religion." It's easily accessible online.
You know, what's funny is that I had this experience in my church high school (protestant) where the one mormon kid would know his bible better than everyone and 'stump' everyone else and the teacher would have to come out from a different room to 'set things straight'... By the way Paul, since I have your attention now, have you gotten around to seeing the latest Wes Cecil video on the "Deep Calvinist Theology of American Culture"? I think you would find it fascinating...
@@scythermantis It is actually even more remarkable considering that LDS don't have paid clergy in local congregations, no advanced theological educational programs, and have 3 more sets of scripture to learn. Kind of an indictment of general Christianity.
@@amurdo4539 Yes, but what if we compare like for like? I would be interested if they found a bunch of IFB (Independent Fundamentalist Baptist) people to compare to the Mormons (maybe they have; I didn't read the study). Both would know the Bible really well, but in ways that were suited to frame their particular beliefs. They would both do so for the legalistic motivation of pleasing God (for this I rely on ex-members's testimonies; I have no real first hand experience except that the Mormons and IFBs I have met have been kind to me). I largely agree with the above comments but just wanted to complicate it with my 2 metal Lincolns. We all should know the Bible more.
@@yankeegonesouth4973 Clearly, you could also go to a seminary and find more knowledgeable people. Interestingly, the LDS knew better than the average protestant that protestants believe in being saved by faith alone, which is not even an LDS belief. Apparently, only 19% of protestants know this. I would definitely not rely primarily on ex-members' testimonies as they often have an ax to grind. I would talk to actual members as well. You, obviously, would not get a good representation of what the United States is like if you only relied on the testimony of ex-pats who gave up their citizenship and hated the United States.
Also, regarding influence and community. We are certainly susceptible but as Adam learned the hard way, we should first & foremost be in communion with Christ, and only with fellow sinful prideful ambitious envious humans with persuasive powers second and then only if they are also in Christ. Our original sin is siding with our fellow human before God.
PV I am so grateful for your voice in this wilderness and your ability to provide frame and a higher level perspective on all these 33:45 interesting and polarized conversations. The voice in the wilderness
Paul have you considered a Locals channel? It is behind a paywall which means the videos you want to share you can & you can do live streams that share videos that you can address with your group of followers? Additionally, it will limit those who troll for troll sake, though I'm not certain you have a lot of issues with that.
You mentioned Discord & that works better than many group-building platforms though some folks might be afraid of going there because it a large community of gamers, but YMMV.
I’ve heard someone say it’s more that the fringes have got louder and maybe larger and it’s now the fringes against the centre 🤔 . At a conference this weekend on James and the latest session was on Faith and Deeds….. a thought crossed my mind , has the worst aspects of the left claimed Christs teachings without the person and likewise has the worst of the right claimed Christ the person, but not his teachings? PS: TRIH French Revolution series is great 👍
Working slowly through this one….. I was listening to Johnny Cash “In The Holy Lands” album today. Would it be fair to say he’s a gent with broad appeal left and right and everyone in between?
"The universe is no narrow thing and the order within it is not constrained by any latitude in its conception to repeat what exists in one part in any other part. Even in this world more things exist without our knowledge than with it and the order in creation which you see is that which you have put there, like a string in a maze, so that you shall not lose your way. For existence has its own order and that no man's mind can compass, that mind itself being but a fact among others.” ― Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian, or, the Evening Redness in the West
@@williambranch4283 In reality, exponential functions peak. The world economy is not all Japanese by now. We will not all be Amish by the end of the century.
Politics is the now, Religion is the always... Btw... there is a genocide going on now, literally, and I am actively trying to prevent it, and maybe that's why I had been spent less time listening to you, but this video is an important reminder of why your voice is so important. God bless and thank you, Paul.
Talk about irony read the Apostle Paul's rant (and he is far from alone in the NT) on "unbelievers" in Romans 1: 18-32. Talk about "in group" vs "out group" thinking!!!!! I know most people in TLC don't take the Apostle Paul seriously but as a Christian pastor in the CRC PVK certainly should. Talk about bullying tactics? The Christian Church is based on black and white thinking all the way down. Where is the New Testament is dialog or critical thinking anywhere encouraged rather than being condemned everywhere?
Now go read Romans 2 where he turns the same charge on those within the Church concluding that *all* are under the power of sin. Sounds like a pretty powerful vision to combat "black and white thinking"--the line between good and evil cuts through every heart. When condemning your neighbour look first and foremost at yourself. And so on. Of course any group can become tribalist (I can hear the in group/out group dynamic in your own rhetoric) but Christianity also has powerful resources within itself for combating those tendencies.
Pageau talks about in/out group thinking and how postmodernism makes an argument like this, “look how the in-groupers oppress the out groupers, this shouldn’t be!” Pageau, and I’m sure PVK, recognize that a level of in/out grouping is inevitable. Pageau argues that holding to your in-group with an iron fist (tyrannically) will lead to break down, but also dismantling in-groups with a radical inclusivism will also lead to disintegration at the group level. In other videos PVK and Vervakae with IFS point out that if we think of each self as a kind of group in the same sense, the logic applies. PVK is here pointing out that each person is not so much a rational analyzer/chooser about each and every belief (though some in fact are more than others like you I’m sure), despite the enlightenment project trying to convince us that we ALL are. Rather people often think more based on the groups they find themselves in. I don’t know if PVK makes very many ‘ought’ claims that I can detect at least. Like I have no idea if he’d say “we should think more in groups, especially when they are Christian” or “individuals should always think more rationally for themselves, and become less dependent on group think, even if they are Christian.” I rarely pick up on PVK making such strong moral ‘ought’ claims, I suspect he just wants people to be aware of their blind spots, and find a balance or something (not sure about his project). Or maybe so that rationalist individuals can have more empathy for the average person who tends towards group think, and also for pointing how it isn’t so bad to rely on group-think if you count trusting experts and authorities who can give you reliable knowledge (I would include trusting experts into group knowledge (collective cognition?) and not the kind of knowledge that an individual arrives at by weighing his own evidence). But I don’t think Paul is trying to convince anyone to move to one side or the other. “Where in the New Testament is dialogue or critical thinking anywhere encouraged rather than being condemned everywhere?” I honestly don’t know, I think you’re probably right if this is a rhetorical question, either it’s not a prominent value, or it is a vice according to the Bible. But that is something in the TLC that is a discussion point, some critical thinkers here in the TLC have gone down paths of empiricism into deep philosophical skepticism or nihilism, and following the disintegration of their lives (to varying degrees), wonder about what things they should be valuing. I have asked this question myself (and would like to hear your thoughts): “can critical thinking thinking be the most important value? Alone, it seems to lead to skepticism. Additionally there are values like the desirability and goodness of seeking knowledge that seem to be foundational to even applying a critical method of trying to attain knowledge.” “What values should be the most foundational if not critical thinking? Or even if not the goodness of knowledge? How can one make an argument for holding to a certain ultimate value over another?” These sorts of questions helped me reconsider things both the JPs have been saying about fundamental values. Being influenced by Peterson, I think it is a fair thing to say that the biblical worldview doesn’t hold critical thinking as it’s highest value. And conversations in the TLC are intriguing to me because they often have to do with how we actually come to believe and value things (the subject of this video). PVK has an influence over me for sure, I don’t accept everything he says full sale obviously, but he rarely makes arguments explicitly (though sometimes he does implicitly, I agree) about how we SHOULD think, mostly just how people generally think. A question that has puzzled me and I now ask you, what do you think some of your ultimate values are as an empiricist (or whatever you consider yourself)? >> What kind of arguments ground those values? Is this justification within the enlightenment framework or is it reaching outside of it?
@@julianw6604So what is your point "Yes, we are all wicked sinners so we must surrender our minds and wills to visionaries like Paul and others "in authority"." In addition, the writings of Paul and others are not univocal take this gem for example: "The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for, “Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But WE HAVE THE MIND OF CHRIST. 1 Corinthians 2:15-16 "You, however, have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you KNOW THE TRUTH. I have not written to you because you lack knowledge of the truth, but because you have it, and because no lie comes from the truth. Who is the liar, if it is not the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, who denies the Father and the Son. 1 John 2: 20-22
@@tgrogan6049 Incidentally, I didn't say that. Have you been in Church? What kind of a Church was it? The kind that makes claims like the ones you are attributing to me and Paul?
@@andyramirez6016 "Determine what is true in order to do what is right." Would sum it up for me. There are many ethical systems and approaches, but I find them rather tedious." Don't do to other people what you don't want them to do to you" its pretty simple. Religions found in the Bible slather on a bunch of extra cargo from the Bronze age that we don't need and are extremely hateful (eternal hell fire) and anti- intellectual (mystical intuitions are what is important). The whole "meaning crises " seems to be based on the shattered hope that humans are not immortal beings and the crown of creation, and that "bad people" will not be punished in Hell for whatever. We have to grow up and face facts however that the "Christian Ontology" has been blown to bits by science. Ultimately what we do will be forgotten but right now we can make a difference in other people's lives. That is how I look at it.
Maybe men and women are not only different in their interests, but ALSO in their OPINIONS and POSITIONS? For example, I, as a man, have come to watch PLENTY of LEFT-WING, FEMINIST, SOCIALIST, WOMEN... Mayyyyybe her sample size is skewed, because she isn't including enough left-wing, working class, women of colour, LGBTQ, etc. ...
Ortlund's latest video goes off on a rant against "fundamentalism", calling it ugly, dangerous and anti intellectual. Not the most reasonable reaction.
If by rant you mean he goes into the history of fundamentalism, says it can be a good thing in its original form and explains the potential hazards of fundamentalist tendencies while maintaining that liberalism is problematic, then sure. Way to win people over though, ad hominen always makes you seem like a rational and trustworthy person...
@@zacdredge3859 I watched quite a bit of it, but he did not "go into the history" of it adequately. I left a comment to that effect. His ad hominem comments were not reasonable, repeatedly using terms "ugly" "dangerous" "anti intellectual". To make such a generalization about "fundamentalists" seemed to indicate a certain antagonism towards those who disagree with him.
"I look at the analytics, and maybe I've shrunk" Algo will spontaneously unsubscribe people from channels it doesn't want to grow. There's no way Algo wants you to go viral, Paul. You're still here because they can't afford to be too obvious.
As Neil Shevni has pointed out, Basham's blatant inaccuracies mean she's just not a reliable narrator. Basham seems to me more concerned with Christian leaders being insufficiently Republican. That misses the mark in substantial ways
I commented under an interview she did with Andrew Klavan (the bald guy at the DailyWire). I heard her out but Klavan is 100% more of a "threat" to Christianity than Gavin. Klavan's son is openly living a certain lifestyle and Klavan has said that people should make their own minds up about the matter, despite it being clearly prohibited in scripture. Klavan says that Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro are doing what God wants them to do and we shouldn't be wanting to convert them. Also Klavan openly promotes degenerate movies and literature due to "art" and "telling it how it is". But Gavin expresses his viewpoint on climate change that is somewhat "liberal". That is a bridge too far in her opinion apparently. The lady has actual examples of people infiltrating churches in the news everyday but wastes our time attacking Gavin.
@@TheEngineerd what's snake like about Shevni? Shevni isn't the only one who has pointed out Basham has made silly mistakes and misattributed quotes. I'll be blunter. She's a flat out liar, even if her underlying arguments are legit, she lies to reinforce them calling into question her entire argument
@@TheEngineerd She in her book is "exposing" someone for infiltrating the church and undermining the gospel while talking to someone who openly promotes several heresies as if he is ok.
I can attest that if you are an outspoken woman with strong opinions, you will be ghosted by many, many of your female friends (Don't write op-eds if you want to keep friends). I don't get it. If you disagree, just say so, and we can hash it out and still be friends. I don't have to agree with somebody on everything to be their friend. Good grief, how do we grow and mature if we are never around people who challenge our beliefs? Fun fact: I have been ghosted on both the secular and Christian sides.
We're just not very good at dealing with ideas that run against the grain of our worldview, aren't we? People like Paul help me to deal with opposition with understanding, setting aside my malice.
Hang with more mature people, we are lonely too ;-)
"Please, I have this belief and I don't want to lose it so please can I find someone who believes it too"
Or alternatively, "Please, I have this belief and I can't get rid of it, nothing else makes sense, so please can I find someone who believes it too"
I had to wait in misery for 4 years before I could find a new religious community to embody. Sucked! But they aren't totally me, TLC meets my need to express myself ;-))
My new mantra: "What the heart loves, the will chooses and the mind justifies"
YOUR DenimWars Denny cap is waiting for you here:
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They make great Christmas presents!
It's hard to talk about Right/Left stuff because there are lots of games being played but also people keep bumping into the terrifying reality that there is a Right & Wrong and generations of "intelligent" people have been hammered into committing to avoiding acceptance of something that is plain to all of us as true and correct.
“There are some ideas so absurd that only an intellectual could believe them.”
― George Orwell
27:41 Yes this is so true. Non-political spaces cannot exist unless you want truly non-religious places, which are impossible to truly have without complete arbitrariness and/or massive amounts of various forms of violence. I appreciate you saying there’s no getting around politics, while encouraging boundaries and grace where needed.
Paul, I, for one, really appreciate your thumbnails and the way you organise your work.
I see several possibilities:
1. Religion calls me to be neutral in politics.
2. My political positions are determined by my religious convictions.
3. My religious positions are determined by political ideology.
4. My political ideology is my religion.
The only potential options for a faithful Christian are 1 and 2. The problem is that there are times when 1 becomes unsustainable. And 3 and 4 are only different because 4 is honest.
Everyone has “culture war fatigue”. Because the far left has been waging it for decades. But not standing against them means they will win. And then we will have nowhere left to hide.
You may not be interested in the culture war, but the culture war is interested in you.
Based. You get it. Keep on keep on.
It takes two sides to have a war, but only one to have a massacre.
She's healing the Shadow Matriarchy by reinventing sowing circles.
Sowing? As in female swine that have given birth previously? Grim you're too much.
Quilters of the World, Unite!
@@williambranch4283 It was a shock to me how quickly knitting became Woke.
Off Topic: Can you put Denny on a t-shirt, sweatshirt, or even a nice hoodie for those of us who don't do hats?
Or for those of us who are a bit preppy, how about a line of polo shirts with Denny as the cute little emblem instead of the polo pony??? Those would sell really well on the east coast....
I feel like Paul is really clicking again with his videos. After a lull due to very understandable disruptions, I think he is finding his groove again and creating tighter content (tighter in the lightly edited Paul sense, not in the pro UA-camr sense). Keep it up!
It would seem that the fastest way to tire of the sausage is to see how it's made.
Thank you for listening, Paul! I really appreciated your thoughtful insights.
great episode. I'll have to check out more of them.
Karen Wong talks about her conscience telling her to have conversations with EVERYONE. Some remarkably selfless people in this space ❤
You CAN throw all the starfish back into the ocean!
26:50 TLC “not a community” probably a “reluctant fellowship”
Try to gird up your loins and be less reluctant ;-)
I'm looking for the Nice People are a Myth Community. Anyone?
Calvinism ;)
@@Phlebas9202 _Any_ Christian who properly believes in Original Sin, really.
I _wish_ the National Institute for Coordinated Experiments were a myth, or at least not one of those true myths that Lewis and Tolkien talked about.
@@jimluebke3869 yes I was joking Jim;). It's not everyone though.
26:40 et seq. She is right about ths all to common misuse of the term "community". When did this get started? I was wondering just the other day whether, in contrast to the alphabet "community" there is a "heterosexual community" or a "traditional family community".
There are enclaves if you go far enough e.g. homesteaders
@@Matty-Boy Do the "powers that be" recognize them as "the homesteader community", with certain rights?
@@anselman3156 No, but they don't recognize the "literary community" either. Point taken, though
@@Matty-Boy I heard PVK use my point in his video today (without accreditation!) ; )
Ah yes, this is exactly what I was hearing Andrew Gold saying earlier; he's been doing a channel about Harry and Megan and He has just put out a video "I just can't do this anymore." He isn't stopping UA-cam but he is going over to his other channel Heretics where he can talk about different things than how he got captured talking only about Harry and Megan and maybe all things Royals (I don't know, I never watched it.) But he is talking about being captured by his audience and what they expect, well, demand.
I am captured by Princes Leonore of Spain, but she is young enough to be a granddaughter.
4:00 Re: The similarity between Jesus and John Wayne and Shepherds for Sale. I wanted to note some thoughts I've been having about the 'right' of evangelicalism, particularly coming from the anti-big Eva/elite people. (I think of this as a movement that is picking up on the Trumpian rhetoric against the Elites or the Mainstream in a similar way that left wing Christians pick up the rhetoric of decolonization etc.) Its really something that the representative people being critiqued are Tim Keller or Gavin Ortland. Whatever these people's faults, these are very conservative thinkers. From a certain vantage point, this represents a movement literally eating itself. In the pursuit of 'purity' it is set on 'canceling' anyone who seems to be making noises that are out of line with the ever shifting conservative standards. Like the Communist movement famously descended into warring factions over increasingly subtle disagreements in doctrine, these movements on the right and left seem to be infected by a similar hellish propensity to eat their own.
Something similar happens in very online Ortho-bro circles where the key charge is that some given claim is "Modernist". Like the progressive movement has an infinite horizon of progress to instantiate, and an infinite number of prevailing practices and beliefs to 'problematize'--this new right wing movement, at its worst, has an infinite past to dredge up, and an infinite number of prevailing practices and beliefs to problematize as covertly 'progressive' or 'Modernist'. If we have been co-opted by 'Modernity' or 'Progressivism', when did the problem start? What do you want to roll back? Should we question gay liberation, women's rights, civil rights, the Enlightenment, the Reformation--if the whole 'tree' of Modernity is 'rotten at the roots', where does the questioning end? I am not suggesting that these are unanswerable questions, but I am noting a 'factitious' tendency.
I’m interested in Jesus saying that if you are forced one mile, go two. It seems like if the system is troubled one should find a separate path or go against it or find a different one. But if the healing comes through even engaging and helping within the system, then that should be where we go, not for the sake of the system as system, but for the sake of salvation. The paradox is in loving my enemies I can find healing, whereas in cancelling them I can only find pain.
I vote Bronze Age ... Quality Metal! The election of 1824 was like 2020. In both cases the anti-Establishment candidate was cancelled. Nothing new under the Sun. King Saul tried to cancel David.
I have been reticent in public in person. Being introverted has been useful. But I needed a counselor to listen to me.
Aahhh man, that Peter Hitchens interview still makes me laugh.
Regarding the covid thing, If something smells of fish it's because it's fishy. The whole covid thing had that smell.
"an' again, this whole right left thing is broken" lmao!
Covid and Pfizer glow.
The "right left thing" isn't broken, except for the Left part of it.
Kale is NOT going to be happy about that hat Paul!
On political labels - I'm thoroughly convinced by the podcasts I've listened to by the Lewis Brothers on the Myth of Left and Right and the traditional political spectrum. If you feel like left and right don't mean anything I'd recommend checking them out.
Even more overlap here. A big part of their thesis of why the political spectrum is a myth is because a spectrum assumes a single variable that differentiates at the end of the spectrum. And obviously politics is a lot more complicated than a single variable. The Hitchens comments about the proper role of government (it's not all or nothing, but issue by issue) would be another overlap.
I think I have this almost right.. one time when Louise P was talking to Justin B she said something along the lines that she was socially liberal and morally conservative.
If the opposition are principalities & powers, the "spiritual wickedness in high places" rather than other people, that helps us to overcome our own fallen wrathfulness, no?
Others show to me why I don't want the dictator role!
@@williambranch4283 Absolutely! Too true.
My Facebook is much more useful and grounded than other social medial (other than YT). I follow organizations and local groups that are useful to me. I stay connected to remote family and friends. You can block or ignore the things you don’t want to see.
PAUL please show us your fantasy team. My draft is this Saturday 😉👍
“My in real life fantasy”
2:01 paul trying to diagnose what spirit has possessed Daum: IDW, TLC, etc
UA-cam alogarithm brought me to you. I was thankful. Intellectual and creative but reformed bible based believer.
I skimmed through the first chapter of the book *Shepherds for Sale*, glanced at the names of the other chapters, and then returned the book. The chapter titles made it clear that the author was going to cover every culture war topic, in the same way she did in the first chapter.
The Twitter back and forth on this book was so discouraging, I’m still on a twitter break because of it.
1:12:00 where’s Andrea with the Bangs!?!!
Living life lol
Well, I try my best to be just like I am
But everybody wants you to be just like them
They say sing while you slave And I just get bored
I ain't gonna work on Maggie's farm, no more. Bob Dylan - of course
I feel exactly the same way about Facebook 🙄
Labels are the spiked protein of viral narratives.
Incapable of human to human transmission without artificial manipulation?
Fun fact about spike proteins! Stanford researchers were looking into them in the 2016 timeframe.
Boomer hats, unite!
In 100 years we have moved from an R-dominant society to a D-dominant society. Back then per President Coolidge, the business of America was business. Today the business of America is politics. As a garrulous old man, this is part of why I hate America in the 21st century ;-(
MARA
money laundering. politics the the means to launder money.
@@buglepong And organized crime. Politics is partnered with organized crime.
@@williambranch4283The government is just the biggest Mafia, it's the only one I'm paying protection.
Make Politics a Weird Hobby Again. MPWHA?
34:00 the simplicity heuristic that we each inevitably apply can either be done by sacrificing quality, or sacrificing quantity. I have chosen the latter. Most choose the former.
This Learning Community says …
I am strongly convinced that the evil principle prevailing in this world leads the unrecognized spiritual need into perdition if it is not counteracted either by real religious insight or by the protective wall of human community.
Carl Jung
Glen Powell in the white shirt made my wife think of something else but different strokes I suppose. Also you're always welcome to mention this guy. 😅 First
It doesn't matter how much good you bring to the world, if you have the wrong political opinion, you are evil and you must be rejected from the tribe.
I can't stand Facebook either. You might make 10 videos a day? If you do, you need family-senior intervention ;-)
Chipmunks are the real familiar PVK, never squirrels ;-))
35:15 For some reason this triggered a thought in me this morning.
I wonder what the average lifetime of a local Church from various traditions is. That would be an interesting thing to find out. My hypothesis would be that non-denominational churches tend to have shorter lifetimes overall compared to more well established denominations; while Roman Catholic and EO have the longest. If this data exists somewhere, I would love to see it.
Non-denominational churches are largely comprised of hemorrhage from the mainline traditions - as it stands today it is a very recent phenomena. In regards to lifespans there are local Lutheran churches that out live local Catholic and Orthodox. There are Orthodox churches that get established for a few decades and then are sold to be hindu temples. It's not so clear cut at this stage other than particular ethnic clusters brought in respective christian traditions. What will be interesting to see is where the chips fall in the next 50 years. We are seeing the collapse of the Mainline happening real time and it's going to get even messier but I'm skeptical that the 'non-denominational' is going to be a lasting and serious player in the religious marketplace. Anything founded in opposition struggles iteratively scaling. Religion that will and has always had staying power is that which is not vague and one that fosters inter-generational cohesion - which the non-demons have completely failed in both accounts. The recent wave of trad catholic and orthodox conversions is too earlier to tell if these guys will be firmly established in their tradition 30 years down the road with grandchildren in the same church.
The terms conservative and liberal are obviously terms that shift with time. Daum and many like her want to conserve a version of the liberalism that lived in 80s-00s. Thus after the shift that was made clear and “final” in Trump, she is a conservative to many. It, of course, depends on what you want to conserve. Pageau and Rohlin, for example, are medieval conservatives. Conservative doesn’t just mean Rush Limbaugh who wanted to preserve a certain kind of 19th and 20th century America that was represented on the political ideas of Friedman, Goldwater, Reagan and Thatcher.
Whatever gains a kind of cultural light hegemony that is moving the culture toward something and away from something else - like the woke progressivism of the last decade - will define in many ways what is conservative. And when that defining hegemony is more “progressive” and extreme in nature, the more “conservatives”there will appear to be.
The present difficulty is the acceleration of these conservative/liberal/progressive shift in the turbo-charged internet/social media age.
I enjoyed this 'home room' today. Thank you. I watch a special place in hell and love it, perhaps it's a lil more girly then you like.
@25:00 Actually, LDS has the highest biblical literacy (higher than evangelicals) and overall religious knowledge when compared to Christian traditions, according to the pew research study called "Who knows what about religion." It's easily accessible online.
Oh, what a delicious point! 🤣
You know, what's funny is that I had this experience in my church high school (protestant) where the one mormon kid would know his bible better than everyone and 'stump' everyone else and the teacher would have to come out from a different room to 'set things straight'...
By the way Paul, since I have your attention now, have you gotten around to seeing the latest Wes Cecil video on the "Deep Calvinist Theology of American Culture"? I think you would find it fascinating...
@@scythermantis It is actually even more remarkable considering that LDS don't have paid clergy in local congregations, no advanced theological educational programs, and have 3 more sets of scripture to learn. Kind of an indictment of general Christianity.
@@amurdo4539 Yes, but what if we compare like for like? I would be interested if they found a bunch of IFB (Independent Fundamentalist Baptist) people to compare to the Mormons (maybe they have; I didn't read the study). Both would know the Bible really well, but in ways that were suited to frame their particular beliefs. They would both do so for the legalistic motivation of pleasing God (for this I rely on ex-members's testimonies; I have no real first hand experience except that the Mormons and IFBs I have met have been kind to me).
I largely agree with the above comments but just wanted to complicate it with my 2 metal Lincolns. We all should know the Bible more.
@@yankeegonesouth4973 Clearly, you could also go to a seminary and find more knowledgeable people. Interestingly, the LDS knew better than the average protestant that protestants believe in being saved by faith alone, which is not even an LDS belief. Apparently, only 19% of protestants know this. I would definitely not rely primarily on ex-members' testimonies as they often have an ax to grind. I would talk to actual members as well. You, obviously, would not get a good representation of what the United States is like if you only relied on the testimony of ex-pats who gave up their citizenship and hated the United States.
Also, regarding influence and community. We are certainly susceptible but as Adam learned the hard way, we should first & foremost be in communion with Christ, and only with fellow sinful prideful ambitious envious humans with persuasive powers second and then only if they are also in Christ. Our original sin is siding with our fellow human before God.
Eve was naturally persuasive ;-)
PV I am so grateful for your voice in this wilderness and your ability to provide frame and a higher level perspective on all these 33:45 interesting and polarized conversations. The voice in the wilderness
I think of you more in the Engels Coach Shop space: craftsman, not entertainment
Pastor! With you on here I can say, There’s also an aspect of crystallization.
Paul have you considered a Locals channel? It is behind a paywall which means the videos you want to share you can & you can do live streams that share videos that you can address with your group of followers? Additionally, it will limit those who troll for troll sake, though I'm not certain you have a lot of issues with that.
You mentioned Discord & that works better than many group-building platforms though some folks might be afraid of going there because it a large community of gamers, but YMMV.
Heh, I am so slow. I joined the public facing Discord channel. We'll see if I have time to get into it.
I’ve heard someone say it’s more that the fringes have got louder and maybe larger and it’s now the fringes against the centre 🤔 .
At a conference this weekend on James and the latest session was on Faith and Deeds….. a thought crossed my mind , has the worst aspects of the left claimed Christs teachings without the person and likewise has the worst of the right claimed Christ the person, but not his teachings?
PS: TRIH French Revolution series is great 👍
Paul, your presentation and editing style conforms to KINO DOGMA 2007...
*If you know, you know...*
You're gonna be the last OG
Ascended Masters know each other ;-)
Working slowly through this one…..
I was listening to Johnny Cash “In The Holy Lands” album today.
Would it be fair to say he’s a gent with broad appeal left and right and everyone in between?
Jesus label for us all is coming to mind “If ye then, being evil….”
Cool hat Paul
"The universe is no narrow thing and the order within it is not constrained by any latitude in its conception to repeat what exists in one part in any other part. Even in this world more things exist without our knowledge than with it and the order in creation which you see is that which you have put there, like a string in a maze, so that you shall not lose your way. For existence has its own order and that no man's mind can compass, that mind itself being but a fact among others.”
― Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian, or, the Evening Redness in the West
Awesome!
Maybe "Growth Mindset" is part of the problem with CAPITALISM...
Exponential function kills.
@@williambranch4283 In reality, exponential functions peak.
The world economy is not all Japanese by now. We will not all be Amish by the end of the century.
@@jimluebke3869 Shhh ... marketing/sales sad ;-(
Maybe the "growth is impossible" mindset is brought on by nihilism.
@@jimluebke3869 Growth is possible, if you reallocate and shrink elsewhere. It is impossible to have a Guns & Butter economy as LBJ proved.
Politics is the now, Religion is the always...
Btw... there is a genocide going on now, literally, and I am actively trying to prevent it, and maybe that's why I had been spent less time listening to you, but this video is an important reminder of why your voice is so important.
God bless and thank you, Paul.
I absolutely love the hat!
It's a great hat. My new favorite.
@@PaulVanderKlay -- If only wish I were into hats. Maybe I'll encourage Grim to put Denny on a nice sweatshirt for me... 🙂
I tolerate being called both. I say
Conservative enough for can't feed em don't breed em.
Left enough to say no drug war.
Talk about irony read the Apostle Paul's rant (and he is far from alone in the NT) on "unbelievers" in Romans 1: 18-32. Talk about "in group" vs "out group" thinking!!!!! I know most people in TLC don't take the Apostle Paul seriously but as a Christian pastor in the CRC PVK certainly should. Talk about bullying tactics? The Christian Church is based on black and white thinking all the way down. Where is the New Testament is dialog or critical thinking anywhere encouraged rather than being condemned everywhere?
Now go read Romans 2 where he turns the same charge on those within the Church concluding that *all* are under the power of sin. Sounds like a pretty powerful vision to combat "black and white thinking"--the line between good and evil cuts through every heart. When condemning your neighbour look first and foremost at yourself. And so on. Of course any group can become tribalist (I can hear the in group/out group dynamic in your own rhetoric) but Christianity also has powerful resources within itself for combating those tendencies.
Pageau talks about in/out group thinking and how postmodernism makes an argument like this, “look how the in-groupers oppress the out groupers, this shouldn’t be!” Pageau, and I’m sure PVK, recognize that a level of in/out grouping is inevitable. Pageau argues that holding to your in-group with an iron fist (tyrannically) will lead to break down, but also dismantling in-groups with a radical inclusivism will also lead to disintegration at the group level. In other videos PVK and Vervakae with IFS point out that if we think of each self as a kind of group in the same sense, the logic applies. PVK is here pointing out that each person is not so much a rational analyzer/chooser about each and every belief (though some in fact are more than others like you I’m sure), despite the enlightenment project trying to convince us that we ALL are. Rather people often think more based on the groups they find themselves in.
I don’t know if PVK makes very many ‘ought’ claims that I can detect at least. Like I have no idea if he’d say “we should think more in groups, especially when they are Christian” or “individuals should always think more rationally for themselves, and become less dependent on group think, even if they are Christian.” I rarely pick up on PVK making such strong moral ‘ought’ claims, I suspect he just wants people to be aware of their blind spots, and find a balance or something (not sure about his project). Or maybe so that rationalist individuals can have more empathy for the average person who tends towards group think, and also for pointing how it isn’t so bad to rely on group-think if you count trusting experts and authorities who can give you reliable knowledge (I would include trusting experts into group knowledge (collective cognition?) and not the kind of knowledge that an individual arrives at by weighing his own evidence). But I don’t think Paul is trying to convince anyone to move to one side or the other.
“Where in the New Testament is dialogue or critical thinking anywhere encouraged rather than being condemned everywhere?” I honestly don’t know, I think you’re probably right if this is a rhetorical question, either it’s not a prominent value, or it is a vice according to the Bible. But that is something in the TLC that is a discussion point, some critical thinkers here in the TLC have gone down paths of empiricism into deep philosophical skepticism or nihilism, and following the disintegration of their lives (to varying degrees), wonder about what things they should be valuing. I have asked this question myself (and would like to hear your thoughts): “can critical thinking thinking be the most important value? Alone, it seems to lead to skepticism. Additionally there are values like the desirability and goodness of seeking knowledge that seem to be foundational to even applying a critical method of trying to attain knowledge.” “What values should be the most foundational if not critical thinking? Or even if not the goodness of knowledge? How can one make an argument for holding to a certain ultimate value over another?”
These sorts of questions helped me reconsider things both the JPs have been saying about fundamental values. Being influenced by Peterson, I think it is a fair thing to say that the biblical worldview doesn’t hold critical thinking as it’s highest value. And conversations in the TLC are intriguing to me because they often have to do with how we actually come to believe and value things (the subject of this video). PVK has an influence over me for sure, I don’t accept everything he says full sale obviously, but he rarely makes arguments explicitly (though sometimes he does implicitly, I agree) about how we SHOULD think, mostly just how people generally think.
A question that has puzzled me and I now ask you, what do you think some of your ultimate values are as an empiricist (or whatever you consider yourself)? >> What kind of arguments ground those values? Is this justification within the enlightenment framework or is it reaching outside of it?
@@julianw6604So what is your point "Yes, we are all wicked sinners so we must surrender our minds and wills to visionaries like Paul and others "in authority"."
In addition, the writings of Paul and others are not univocal take this gem for example: "The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for, “Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But WE HAVE THE MIND OF CHRIST. 1 Corinthians 2:15-16
"You, however, have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you KNOW THE TRUTH. I have not written to you because you lack knowledge of the truth, but because you have it, and because no lie comes from the truth. Who is the liar, if it is not the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, who denies the Father and the Son. 1 John 2: 20-22
@@tgrogan6049 Incidentally, I didn't say that. Have you been in Church? What kind of a Church was it? The kind that makes claims like the ones you are attributing to me and Paul?
@@andyramirez6016 "Determine what is true in order to do what is right." Would sum it up for me. There are many ethical systems and approaches, but I find them rather tedious." Don't do to other people what you don't want them to do to you" its pretty simple. Religions found in the Bible slather on a bunch of extra cargo from the Bronze age that we don't need and are extremely hateful (eternal hell fire) and anti- intellectual (mystical intuitions are what is important). The whole "meaning crises " seems to be based on the shattered hope that humans are not immortal beings and the crown of creation, and that "bad people" will not be punished in Hell for whatever. We have to grow up and face facts however that the "Christian Ontology" has been blown to bits by science. Ultimately what we do will be forgotten but right now we can make a difference in other people's lives. That is how I look at it.
Shoulda brought in ten shekels and a shirt. Judges.
Your opinions are assigned to you -Scott Adams. Also related to moist robot mental model
1:10:46 Minneapolis? Crossover?
Minnesota supremacy
@@comeintotheforest *Southern Minnesota
@@Landbeorht coming from the Mankato area, sure why not 🤷♂️
Problematized. LOLOL
Christian European society perceived such anti-social people as being in moral error,
🐿️
Maybe men and women are not only different in their interests, but ALSO in their OPINIONS and POSITIONS?
For example, I, as a man, have come to watch PLENTY of LEFT-WING, FEMINIST, SOCIALIST, WOMEN...
Mayyyyybe her sample size is skewed, because she isn't including enough left-wing, working class, women of colour, LGBTQ, etc. ...
Ortlund's latest video goes off on a rant against "fundamentalism", calling it ugly, dangerous and anti intellectual. Not the most reasonable reaction.
In the US, Christian Fundamentalism is the US has been raising a stink for 120 years ;-(
What video was it? I saw his first video reacting to her and it appeared tempered to me.
If by rant you mean he goes into the history of fundamentalism, says it can be a good thing in its original form and explains the potential hazards of fundamentalist tendencies while maintaining that liberalism is problematic, then sure.
Way to win people over though, ad hominen always makes you seem like a rational and trustworthy person...
@@OnTheThirdDay The one PVK has in the description and clipped from here: "Fundamentalism 100 years ago vs today"
@@zacdredge3859 I watched quite a bit of it, but he did not "go into the history" of it adequately. I left a comment to that effect. His ad hominem comments were not reasonable, repeatedly using terms "ugly" "dangerous" "anti intellectual". To make such a generalization about "fundamentalists" seemed to indicate a certain antagonism towards those who disagree with him.
"I look at the analytics, and maybe I've shrunk"
Algo will spontaneously unsubscribe people from channels it doesn't want to grow.
There's no way Algo wants you to go viral, Paul. You're still here because they can't afford to be too obvious.
There is no abstract truth or right answer, Paul. None.
Tell it to the Pope!
Luke Thompson or Tom Lukeson? Why ask why?
Love Gavin.
The hat makes you look better.
Cause you can't see my face?! :)
Polotics is idolatry, right wing is Baal worship, left wing is Ashtaroth.
Absolute nonsense statement
American conservatives tend not to show Christlike behavior to money changers.
👂 ⬅️ ➡️ 👂
As Neil Shevni has pointed out, Basham's blatant inaccuracies mean she's just not a reliable narrator. Basham seems to me more concerned with Christian leaders being insufficiently Republican. That misses the mark in substantial ways
I commented under an interview she did with Andrew Klavan (the bald guy at the DailyWire).
I heard her out but Klavan is 100% more of a "threat" to Christianity than Gavin. Klavan's son is openly living a certain lifestyle and Klavan has said that people should make their own minds up about the matter, despite it being clearly prohibited in scripture.
Klavan says that Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro are doing what God wants them to do and we shouldn't be wanting to convert them.
Also Klavan openly promotes degenerate movies and literature due to "art" and "telling it how it is".
But Gavin expresses his viewpoint on climate change that is somewhat "liberal". That is a bridge too far in her opinion apparently.
The lady has actual examples of people infiltrating churches in the news everyday but wastes our time attacking Gavin.
Your source of Basham being an unreliable narrator is an unreliable snake like Shenvi. Hilarious.
@@OnTheThirdDay So your complaint is while she's talking about the subject of her book she doesn't talk about another topic?
@@TheEngineerd what's snake like about Shevni? Shevni isn't the only one who has pointed out Basham has made silly mistakes and misattributed quotes.
I'll be blunter. She's a flat out liar, even if her underlying arguments are legit, she lies to reinforce them calling into question her entire argument
@@TheEngineerd She in her book is "exposing" someone for infiltrating the church and undermining the gospel while talking to someone who openly promotes several heresies as if he is ok.
The book thoroughly misrepresents Gavin Ortlund
I think Gavin's video was put into a context by the book that is alien to the context of his channel. Context matters.
Excommunication. Communication by X