As a school psychologist in NYC, this is exactly the discussion I was looking for. IQ is important on a practical level but it’s also important to remember how personality and transcendent experiences can shape a person’s life experience. Really serendipitous. Also, I think high on openness would mean less ideological possession since the sifting through of different perspectives means more information to validate a variety of viewpoints. But also, I think we need to redefine the definitions of conservative versus liberal.... these definitions have changed in the years since the research on political beliefs and personality was done.
@@kimberlykay130 they have only succeeded in the minds of the weak. My generation continues to use Webster’s to define verbiage. Each generation has changed their accepted definition of words. It seems people are so offended by everything. When will nobody speak out because of fear of offending others? I tell people that I am an Equal Opportunity Offender! If they think they have been offended, to tell me and I will ensure they understand the true definition of the word. Can you imagine how it will work out for them?😂 We need to save the children by our own speaking out. I applaud your reply addressing the changes in perceived definitions. I agree with your definition of gay. Do you agree with Webster’s definition of queer-differing in some odd way from what is usual or normal; eccentric or unconventional? Why is it considered offensive? And why, pray tell, did the alphabet people add Q to the end of their identity crisis? 🤦♀️ It’s obvious they are mixed up because their use of alphabet letters do not spell a word.🤦♀️
@Jackie Decuffa are you insinuating that different perspectives need to be censored as you think it is too time consuming to filter and validate? Yet you are a school psychologist? Hmmm, interesting.
Brilliant. Of the many hundreds of podcasts and presentations I’ve listen to this rates amongst the best ever. I’ve got a whole new level of respect for you Scott. Your forte is clearly a more serious and intellectual perspective as you demonstrated in this discussion with Jordan. Bravo gents from Australia
About that reciprocity idea at 1:10 - There is a saying (Amazonian tribe iirc) - "I store food in the belly of my brother." As Jordan said - "It allows competent people to store the fruits of their labour." To be reciprocated, hopefully, further down the line. Truth acted out over time... awe inspiring indeed :)
my family is from KY and I always said they valued being nice over everything else - it was annoying cus you couldn't get the truth from people- probably a survival mechanism to keep them safe i'll bet and with such rough conditions, they couldn't handle much more so nice goes a long way when someone is tired, broken, and just wants to be loved - easily manipulated too...
Have you ever heard about polite disrespect? It happens every day, especially in the “Southern” culture. A person can be “schooled” but it doesn’t make them intelligent, in reality. It depends on how you view intelligence. Being polite in interacting with others is a preferred form versus with anger. How does one raised in KY not realize that concept? Fearful people? I think not. Most ppl I have met from KY, are not fearful of much of anything. Maybe it’s a regional thing, which region one lives in KY? Or parentage? Or heredity? As for wanting to be loved? That’s a universal human trait. To me, people who are basically polite, are more accepting of others and, usually, more accepted by others. Although, there are some people who take kindness and/or politeness as weakness or stupidity. I think that reveals the true ignorance of some. Polite disrespect is used by those not easily manipulated, they manipulate using polite disrespect. Let that sink in!
I've noticed that about Americans from the south as well. Here in England there's a tradition of insulting people but doing it in a very tongue-in-cheek way, so it isn't entirely serious, which means people can still get on with each other despite having disagreements.
Social chameleon comes to mind with openness and creativity. This is such a great podcast. Things I have seen in people and especially myself. I can blend with anyone, not become possessed by the social contagion but stay at my own center. How many people with these traits also have a high level of empathy for others? Often can read and feel their even hidden at times emotional undercurrent especially one on one.
Loved the discussion, and really agree with this sort of thing being the learning of the future. I love learning and intended to go back to university when I retire to carry on learning, but over the last year or two, I've realized that there is no need for me to waste money on University. Thanks
The tough part about learning from podcasts is that there usually isn’t a curriculum that builds on itself and systematically covers various subjects. And you’ll usually forget 95% of the information unless you take notes and review notes periodically, which 99% of people will never do. Same is true for school though. Another option is online courses. They have free ones or ones you pay for. And then another option is to borrow the curriculum from universities for independent study. To do that, you look up the various classes for a major, and then look up a syllabus for each class you want. Then you can order the books for each class. You can also use whatever edition you want or substitute the book for a cheaper one by a different author.
I have been retired for 5 years and I have been very actively embracing podcasts like Peterson’s and Kaufman’s. While fascinating, and often supported through books, two things I miss are access to research publications (books are always out of date) and the intensity required by constant writing and assessment (not exams, but mostly writing). I’d love to say that I am self actualized to the degree that I write with the same quality and intensity, but I don’t. Now I am wondering about another degree to add to my “portfolio” …. Grad degrees in Engineering, business and education. Peterson sees the complexity.
Initially I thought, “2 hour episode with Scott and Jordan? Yes Please!” And it was so thought provoking. I took so many notes and great questions raised as well in the first half with the personality stuff and great discussion and some advice about how to deal with folks and be a good person while still trying to engage with others in the second half. Keep it up man! Really enjoy your work! I’d be interested in your class as well. Do you have like a shortened version up anywhere? Skillshare?
Learned a lot about Dr. Kaufman from this podcast. Such a rich multi-faucet personality. You are a great person, Scott. Pleasure to listen to your podcasts
All of us have a clear need to literally listen intently and intentionally and not draw conclusions but purposely put it all into a viable personal daily use and practice living a natural life and use ourselves as an example.
Grow our competence so as to not be influenced negatively by modern social cultural engeneering. I love... my head being stimulated in a million directions.. Quote
@@EmpoweredPercussion seeing that you are highly open. Are you open to this? Your reply began with “Me to”, actually it should be “Me too.”? Or “Me, too.”? 🤷♀️
I loved this episode! Such an immense amount of information and inspiration, and I fed upon it like a hog takes to slop. One of the most fascinating exchanges I’ve seen in quite some time. Thanks so much for sharing!
props for immediately stating that this was from Apr.'21. I really hate it when some utubers show something from as far back as a decade ago and try to pass it off as current. I enjoyed hearing this again.
More of this, more, more. What an intriguing conversation. I love how you've contextually integrated so many aspects of individual differences. To be a fly on the wall for your conversations... ☺️ You should hold recorded discussions regularly between yourselves. Fascinating.
Isn't it nice to listen to great thinkers, with academic and clinical expertise in what makes us tick, pragmatically discuss how life could be better for everyone..... for a change?
I am not a psychologist or trained therapist or any of those things, and I do enjoy listening to Dr. Peterson, but I do wish he would let others get a word in edgewise ... we all have blindspots ... I think that one of his (and bless his soul ... he is human like the rest of us) is that he interrupts people way too much. He needs to let his guests or interviewers get to the very end of their thoughts before inserting himself back into the dialogue, and he also needs to respond to cues (those very slight sounds people make) when they're hoping to either jump back in or complete a thought. I have seen video after video of people sitting across from Dr. Peterson speaking faster than they probably normally would, no doubt in fear that they would be unable to complete their thoughts or their sentence before a very predictable curtailing of their contribution (I commend Dr. Kaufman here for largely keeping his cool and being more assertive than most others that I have seen in the same situation, and that without being boar-ish, which is a Herculean feat). As a viewer, the many untimely interruptions take away from some of my overall enjoyment of the content, because I can feel the discomfort of those not given a fair or equal chance to contribute to these conversations. Now, have I learnt a lot from Dr. Peterson? Yes, of course (though, in this particular conversation, I do wish that they had used less academic language ... but it is what it is ... I managed to follow to a reasonable degree). Dr. Peterson is a masterful communicator (verbally) but a huge part of communication is listening, and in a dialogue or a discussion with multiple people, I would love to see more balanced give-and-take. I am equally keen on hearing all parties. Overall, though, I am enjoying the discussion ... a little over 30 mins to go ... almost there ...
I find very interesting that a canadien psychology would associate politeness with authority, because i find very interesting that in Canada the use of the word sir is associated to the respect of the other often in authority like your boss or an elderly person but in the states i find that at least half the time the people will use the word sir regardless of who they are talking to, it seems to have more to do about themselves and how they want to present themselves to the world..
Took JBP test, I am open, agreeable, neurotic & conscientious. HELP, as I am a sponge to the emotions of others. How do I deplete neuroticism, to Really live the life I know I could!
Such a brilliant conversation with an intellect which was way beyond my own human intelligence as only a retired environmental engineer but I loved every minute, thank you. I agree Scott that there is so much 'lectured' at us now, rather than listening empathetically to us. Along with SO much umbrage taken about the most minimal thing said. There is to me what seems a like a great big Chinese whisper going on with all this new mindset information and findings flying about that are no more than 'a fashion to say something' in many different ways with the only underlying view to make money for them really. Thanks for your honesty and grounded information.
Good conversation. On the topic of your naivete. You might want to look to stoicism here. One of the foundational principles of stoicism is to not try to control things you don't control. The other is to control the things you do control. Developing the ability to tell the difference is key. When it comes to other people you have very little control. You do have control over what you say and how you react to what they say. So focus on that.
This stuff is so fascinating. This is why the conservatives are driven mad by Biden’s border situation. The left hates borders and the right wants them. Neither will budge. I think podcasts may be the last hope for intelligent conversation between both leanings. If we can somehow get the politicians to have these podcast conversations. Here’s to hoping!!
Whoa, I'm familiar with your older podcasts, and your talking speed is so much different in this one. Very interesting to see how you adapt your speed to the pacing of your conversation partner Scott! Of course Jordan talks in a very rapid way, so I thought it was cool how you matched that rhythm.
Hey now! As a 53-year old high-orderly, high-openness gal, I'm gonna say meet some more of us (before you throw Hitler in the mix). I'm currently a poet. Also, life-long conservative, art teacher, fiction-lover and border-lover. I HATE physically disgusting things, and dirty language, but I like modern art, modern music, languages and linguistics. I raised 4 non-sticky, non-violent children. Agreeableness 26% Conscientiousness 59% Extraversion 88% Neuroticism 13% Openness 89%
You both are tapping into some wonderful studies. I would volunteer to be one of your subjects. Here are my big 5 results. Agreeableness: 93% compassion; 65% politeness. Conscientiousness: 44% industriousness; 84% Orderliness. Extraversion: 86% enthusiasm; 36% Assertiveness. Neurotism: 96% withdrawal; 99% Volatility 😬. Openess: 87% openess; 60% Intellect. I also recently graduated Summa Cum Laude with a 4.0 with a BA in Psychology and Social Work minor. I'm 45. I do not know my I.Q. but I do know I struggle with timed tests and testing, but write very well and my strengths were in essays and contemplative reasoning. I'm fascinated with both your approaches to personality and the individual's success in society. I never quite feel that I fit into any groups, yet I get along with everyone. I believe in the value of every human both good and bad by societies standards. If you both are looking to collaborate on a future study please reach out I would love to contribute in any way possible.
Re: teaching, and the future of education Parker Palmer lays out a very thought-through dialogic way of teaching a class in his book 'The Courage to Teach'. I think it's right down Dr Peterson and Dr Kaufman's alley.
44:37 I would think politeness is not about respect for authority but about recognition of sovereign (and distinct) others, which might be an interpersonal manifestation of borders which circles back to conscientiousness.
One needs to keep in mind that Frankl forged a role for himself where some of his signature strengths (Seligman) were still being partly put to some use. Maslows hierarchy is surely out of date?
15:30 i wonder if it's dissociation of these networks or net fxn of these networks 17:15 I wonder if this is where maturation/life experiences can influence IQ, especially if you have an investigative-type of mind - like IQ is mostly genetic, but experiences maybe induce expression of IQ-related genes as you get odler 28:40 this seems like something psychedelic experiences stimulate - openness to experience relative to oneself 34:00 would this high openness influence overall executive fxn, which may be associated w/ IQ? in this case, experience may influence IQ? 38:15 true imitation is important 42:00 I think the "borders" sustain identity = meaning, so that's why it's so contentious with respect to people w/ temperamental predisposition 50:10 interesting - integrated hierarchy of needs 1:02:40 I wonder how this is representative w/ Carl Jung's synchronicity idea - where the narrative and objective world cross in an integrated mode of being 1:03:40 very interesting - sense of meaning is ultimate grounding in one's nervous system 1:08:10 interesting. this touches on religious values 1:11:10 productive reciprocity is a universal human truth 1:13:08 tender defender is most attractive to women 1:47:15 haha interesting. yea it doesn't seem that Sam is not keen to the idea of having a moral framework for the integration of that higher sense of self - he disregards the necessity, bc he is able to just "be" w/ that sense via meditating and not have an urge to conceptualize it concretely otherwise
There is a slight overestimation of humans, as clever people tend to think about others from their perspective and imagine some features which in fact aren't true for everyone... but it is good to believe in humanity.
When someone has an IQ of 60 or 70, very typical in the US today,...even if it is only 25 or 30% of abilities...there are grave issues putting those people in most jobs.
By definition an IQ within the range of 60-70 is as rare as an IQ within the range of 130-140. Merely a couple of percent of the population fit inside those ranges combined.
I'll say, being highly open myself, that the reliability problem is very real. But it's more than a challenge. I spent years practicing discipline and order. I did well. Except for one thing: it felt like I was killing myself. I was dying on the vine. After over a decade of "getting serious" I felt a million years old and had zero purpose, I finally tried MDMA for the first time and i can say that it saved my life. I think that the fundamental nature of these characteristics is much more than numbers on a dial. It's even more serious than "traits" which point to tendencies and skill acquisition. In other words it isn't an arrangement of bricks, it's the material the bricks are composed of, person to person, as well.. When I say "saved my life" that's not an exaggeration. I was highly successful financially and socially, was married to a great woman, And etc. People envied me at the time. But I was horribly miserable, and no matter what I did, there was zero relief. Only when I started learning new things again, participating in art projects and attending burning man did I finally feel like I had something to live for.
Ah, 'to see eternity in a grain of sand'! Sometimes only such a jolt will deliver a shift in perception... The ancient (from whatever tradition) had rites of passage... how deceptively rich but in essence how meagre and limited our current adolescence is by comparison and the materialistic transhumanism planned for mankind is designed to rob us of even that...
I scored 100% on openess and around 10% on neuroticism with big 5... I feel lucky and the discussions on openess mid video are giving more understanding but originally I've wondered how a human arrives to the space of 100% openess. Lately I'm trying to identify with childhood trauma and how that affects IQ and openess... passing thought, perhaps high degree openess could be a correlated survival trait? Or vice versa lower iq with childhood trauma injury... Either way I am wondering if my compassion and unique childhood have created my core traits? Thanks if anyone can comment.
I would love to see Jordan take on the challenge of proper and improper context of scripture as they relate to false prophets and or the ignorant . He would make a good author of a book called " Proper context of All 66 books of the Holy Bible " . We can debate what scripture means or doesn't mean , but only if the proper context in which it was written stays in the forefront of the discussion . Preacher's that preach out of context may mean well , But provide the atheist a strong argument against religion itself threw confusion and inconsistency . Confusion and inconsistency that otherwise wouldn't exist . I promise you , if you get confused reading scripture it's because of past indoctrination of improper context of scripture .
There's one point of debate that makes it not just _easy_ to "disbelieve" a god exists, but perfectly logical. Preaching "out of context" may be a faith-stopper for some as well, but the following statements are something that one cannot see their way out of and no one has _ever_ been able to reconcile it: a) god _doesn't exist_ b) god exists but _does not have the power to interfere with the lives of human beings_ c) god exists, and he does have the power to interfere in the daily lives of humans _but chooses not to_ That god is either a myth, or he doesn't have the power to act in our lives (what then makes him a god?) or he does have the power to interfere in our lives but doesn't (he is a sadist and possibly the devil) is enough to make me conclude he doesn't exist
Inasmuch as there is at least a gross of different areas of the brain dealing with varied functions, how can there not be at that many types of intelligence? I have always wondered about this question, but have never done any detailed study of the matter. So, I wonder why this never comes into any discussion of IQ.
Gentlemen, I'm a Scorpio and open about information and some forms of neuroticism, however, not interested in leftist liberalism. Perhaps I misunderstood this topic. Very interesting conversation.
Perception, behavior and Political views are manifested by your personality so you are not wrong. Check out Jordan Peterson's Personality And Its Transformations lecture series
If someone got a false grade on an IQ test that was much higher than what they should have gotten, do you feel this would have any impact on their future intelligence, IQ or what they pursue in society? And vice versa.. such as if they got a much lower grade than what actually were.
How does g intelligence think about things like autism? Also in my case I have a crazy good memory for physical movement but not academic s, how does that work?
Brilliant, the bit on sexual selection was a dead set bulls eye. Also partially related, I say this not to reinforce a pre-set position but as an interesting observation.. when it comes to random genetic mutations you rarely.. if ever see a mutation that cascades a species into a positive direction, based on the actions they took or needed to take during their lives, actually when you see genetic mutations at all they're overwhelmingly awful in the form of large scale disfiguration or one or many tumors. The more I think of it the less likely I see it that all this absolutely staggering and vast variety was part of a process of random genetic mutation, the odds on that would break anything that tried to figure it. Genetics, the genetic code is information, something that exists to inform an entity on how to grow precisely. Information, a blue print, where you find blue prints, information, you find intelligence. I think it's very likely we're dealing with some sort of architect or universal designer who cleverly built a sort of self intelligence within it dependent on the specific blue print plus local environmental factors in real time. One reason being as to not have to micro manage, two as to produce variety, three as to produce a will that is free.
Type of convo Id luv to have on a random Tuesday night; where does one find such people? Edit-53:08 Narc to Empath 53:15 Groundbreaking 1:23:33 Cluster Bs lol wow this stuff needs to be cartooned and taught to children... could thatve been the original intention of comic books Luv JP but we need to make the societal connection on why 1:33:59 wasnt applied to scenario 1:29:45 we say we’re in search of truth but we’re apprehensive to act on it; that woman may never again in life receive that instantaneous surgery or connect the dots over time then she has sons what happens to her and the boys? We need to think this shit through World 1:30:30 For empath CLevels
Dr. Barry, I really relate to your confession on naivety at ua-cam.com/video/3UuqpmhSg_k/v-deo.html . Dr. Peterson says it takes courage to be open, despite being hurt in the past, even if you might have to 'take the hit'. I can see that, but over the past year I've also learned to see it as grace. Which I've further learned to define as; not being offended when I love someone more than they love me. (btw, I'm 90th percentile in openness with many autistic traits)
Watching and listening to this while listening to Pelican at one third the volume. Wondering if a fish can climb a tree anyway despite what wise men say.
IQ is the ability to learn and if I understand it properly the ability or IQ is based on abstraction. Umm...guess we have to have a basis to distinguish people to justify the distinction itself...and it is 25% predictable of success which is the best we can muster so far...what about the other 75% ...and humans to change over time for a Varity of reasons that are not abstract based... openness is just but one example...where does each of our individual spirituality and connection with Father come into play in this success? Of course that means what your definition of "success" actually means:) Your suggestion of "weeding out" (distinguishing) students after the first year of college, law school, medical school etc... is quite brilliant and would probably up the 25% figure to 75%...lol
Good conversation. However its definitely naive of Scott. Had he not witnessed and listened to the famous BBC interview with Cathy Newman about equality for women. It really was a classic demonstration where the journalist behaved with disregard and disrespect towards Jordan and it did not favour well for Cathy. Dr Peterson managed her with great skill. That's good modelling in the face of a cynical debate. Cynicism coming from the journalist.
I listened to this months ago on Peterson's podcast, I'm halfway through this one but I can't continue because Jordan keeps bogarting the goddamn conversation :-/
I think you’re forgetting that an error in measuring IQ can have serious effects on someone’s life, it’s not just a measurement error. I know you’re talking conceptually but I’m not sure why you would want to reduce all the data to one factor. How many people get very similar verbal and performance scores? I would guess not that many. It’s clear to me that there’s something more to most problems than just G and that’s interesting also, why are we better at applying intelligence in some areas and not others? In my mind the only way to fairly get at real intelligence would be to come up with truly novel problems that aren’t influenced by experience. I haven’t thought about all this for a while and it’s all very exciting, but practically, since I have seen kids who don’t take these kind of tests well lose out on scholarships, college and program admission, and feeling good about their cognitive abilities, I’m not comfortable with just being conceptual.
Im not sure IQ isnt important, it seems like it is, not my field. But defending IQ, by saying its the most instructive test in the most significant field of the social sciences, is not compelling. You only need to multiply by zero once to bring the whole equation back down to earth.
As a school psychologist in NYC, this is exactly the discussion I was looking for. IQ is important on a practical level but it’s also important to remember how personality and transcendent experiences can shape a person’s life experience. Really serendipitous.
Also, I think high on openness would mean less ideological possession since the sifting through of different perspectives means more information to validate a variety of viewpoints. But also, I think we need to redefine the definitions of conservative versus liberal.... these definitions have changed in the years since the research on political beliefs and personality was done.
Agree especially with the political labels needing to get updated. These labels are almost meaningless today with their traditional definitions.
@@kimberlykay130 they have only succeeded in the minds of the weak. My generation continues to use Webster’s to define verbiage. Each generation has changed their accepted definition of words. It seems people are so offended by everything. When will nobody speak out because of fear of offending others? I tell people that I am an Equal Opportunity Offender! If they think they have been offended, to tell me and I will ensure they understand the true definition of the word. Can you imagine how it will work out for them?😂 We need to save the children by our own speaking out. I applaud your reply addressing the changes in perceived definitions. I agree with your definition of gay. Do you agree with Webster’s definition of queer-differing in some odd way from what is usual or normal; eccentric or unconventional? Why is it considered offensive? And why, pray tell, did the alphabet people add Q to the end of their identity crisis? 🤦♀️ It’s obvious they are mixed up because their use of alphabet letters do not spell a word.🤦♀️
@Jackie Decuffa are you insinuating that different perspectives need to be censored as you think it is too time consuming to filter and validate? Yet you are a school psychologist? Hmmm, interesting.
Brilliant. Of the many hundreds of podcasts and presentations I’ve listen to this rates amongst the best ever. I’ve got a whole new level of respect for you Scott. Your forte is clearly a more serious and intellectual perspective as you demonstrated in this discussion with Jordan. Bravo gents from Australia
Honestly, a beautiful conversation. A pleasure to watch.
About that reciprocity idea at 1:10 - There is a saying (Amazonian tribe iirc) - "I store food in the belly of my brother."
As Jordan said - "It allows competent people to store the fruits of their labour." To be reciprocated, hopefully, further down the line.
Truth acted out over time... awe inspiring indeed :)
my family is from KY and I always said they valued being nice over everything else - it was annoying cus you couldn't get the truth from people- probably a survival mechanism to keep them safe i'll bet and with such rough conditions, they couldn't handle much more so nice goes a long way when someone is tired, broken, and just wants to be loved - easily manipulated too...
Have you ever heard about polite disrespect? It happens every day, especially in the “Southern” culture. A person can be “schooled” but it doesn’t make them intelligent, in reality. It depends on how you view intelligence. Being polite in interacting with others is a preferred form versus with anger. How does one raised in KY not realize that concept? Fearful people? I think not. Most ppl I have met from KY, are not fearful of much of anything. Maybe it’s a regional thing, which region one lives in KY? Or parentage? Or heredity? As for wanting to be loved? That’s a universal human trait. To me, people who are basically polite, are more accepting of others and, usually, more accepted by others. Although, there are some people who take kindness and/or politeness as weakness or stupidity. I think that reveals the true ignorance of some. Polite disrespect is used by those not easily manipulated, they manipulate using polite disrespect. Let that sink in!
I've noticed that about Americans from the south as well. Here in England there's a tradition of insulting people but doing it in a very tongue-in-cheek way, so it isn't entirely serious, which means people can still get on with each other despite having disagreements.
Social chameleon comes to mind with openness and creativity. This is such a great podcast. Things I have seen in people and especially myself. I can blend with anyone, not become possessed by the social contagion but stay at my own center. How many people with these traits also have a high level of empathy for others? Often can read and feel their even hidden at times emotional undercurrent especially one on one.
I am one of those people, I thought most people were like that.
Very relatable.
perfectly put
I have seen your conversation with Jordan and I bought your last book because of that.
Loved the discussion, and really agree with this sort of thing being the learning of the future. I love learning and intended to go back to university when I retire to carry on learning, but over the last year or two, I've realized that there is no need for me to waste money on University. Thanks
The tough part about learning from podcasts is that there usually isn’t a curriculum that builds on itself and systematically covers various subjects.
And you’ll usually forget 95% of the information unless you take notes and review notes periodically, which 99% of people will never do. Same is true for school though.
Another option is online courses. They have free ones or ones you pay for. And then another option is to borrow the curriculum from universities for independent study. To do that, you look up the various classes for a major, and then look up a syllabus for each class you want. Then you can order the books for each class. You can also use whatever edition you want or substitute the book for a cheaper one by a different author.
@@seanmatthewking yes true, but I don't forget much, been blessed with excellent recall of topics/talks that capture my interest
Take “no degree seeking” classes. You won’t have to pay a dime.
Yes! yes! and yes! me too
I have been retired for 5 years and I have been very actively embracing podcasts like Peterson’s and Kaufman’s. While fascinating, and often supported through books, two things I miss are access to research publications (books are always out of date) and the intensity required by constant writing and assessment (not exams, but mostly writing). I’d love to say that I am self actualized to the degree that I write with the same quality and intensity, but I don’t. Now I am wondering about another degree to add to my “portfolio” …. Grad degrees in Engineering, business and education. Peterson sees the complexity.
Initially I thought, “2 hour episode with Scott and Jordan? Yes Please!” And it was so thought provoking. I took so many notes and great questions raised as well in the first half with the personality stuff and great discussion and some advice about how to deal with folks and be a good person while still trying to engage with others in the second half. Keep it up man! Really enjoy your work! I’d be interested in your class as well. Do you have like a shortened version up anywhere? Skillshare?
Learned a lot about Dr. Kaufman from this podcast. Such a rich multi-faucet personality. You are a great person, Scott. Pleasure to listen to your podcasts
All of us have a clear need to literally listen intently and intentionally and not draw conclusions but purposely put it all into a viable personal daily use and practice living a natural life and use ourselves as an example.
Grow our competence so as to not be influenced negatively by modern social cultural engeneering. I love... my head being stimulated in a million directions.. Quote
at first I was like, oh hey, he's back!! but cool to see Scott interviewed on another podcast for once, excited to watch!
This is so great. I’ve learned so much more about my high openness and high conscious self. I’ve taken the 5 factor test.
Me to. I'm high in openess and low narauticiam... still trying to learn more on how to utilize these factors. Any share or links lmk. ♡
You had to take a test to prove yourself to you? Based upon someone else’s 5 factors? Hmmm, interesting.
@@EmpoweredPercussion seeing that you are highly open. Are you open to this? Your reply began with “Me to”, actually it should be “Me too.”? Or “Me, too.”? 🤷♀️
@@aliseegenuine6414 🤓 Thank you for the correction, I think I was sick that day @ school 🤷🏽♂️ 💋
Fantastic!! What a great excuse to watch this discussion again!!! Thank you, Scott!!!!
I loved this episode! Such an immense amount of information and inspiration, and I fed upon it like a hog takes to slop. One of the most fascinating exchanges I’ve seen in quite some time. Thanks so much for sharing!
A great conversation, incredibly informative and full of insights. Thank you for that :)
props for immediately stating that this was from Apr.'21. I really hate it when some utubers show something from as far back as a decade ago and try to pass it off as current. I enjoyed hearing this again.
More of this, more, more. What an intriguing conversation. I love how you've contextually integrated so many aspects of individual differences. To be a fly on the wall for your conversations... ☺️ You should hold recorded discussions regularly between yourselves. Fascinating.
I enjoyed this. 🙏🏽
The statement that this was akin to a high level conference was spot-on. I'm learning so much from gentlemen like you using this format. Thank you.
Miss bumping into guys like this bellied up at a bar. Great conversations
1:02:10 Man, I really hope DeYoung comes out with a book to summarize his research soon! ❤
same...
scottbarrykaufman.com/podcast/colin-deyoung-rethinking-mental-illness/
@@ThePsychologyPodcast ❤💙💜 Thank you!!! ❤💙💜
Isn't it nice to listen to great thinkers, with academic and clinical expertise in what makes us tick, pragmatically discuss how life could be better for everyone..... for a change?
good episode Scott
1:53:10 "It's still definitely the case that your best bet is like, arms open and welcoming.... It's the most appropriate ethical stance."
Thank you for this opportunity.
This podcast was absolutely phenomenal!! I appreciate that this sort of dialogue exists among people today. We need more. Thank you both.
I am not a psychologist or trained therapist or any of those things, and I do enjoy listening to Dr. Peterson, but I do wish he would let others get a word in edgewise ... we all have blindspots ... I think that one of his (and bless his soul ... he is human like the rest of us) is that he interrupts people way too much. He needs to let his guests or interviewers get to the very end of their thoughts before inserting himself back into the dialogue, and he also needs to respond to cues (those very slight sounds people make) when they're hoping to either jump back in or complete a thought. I have seen video after video of people sitting across from Dr. Peterson speaking faster than they probably normally would, no doubt in fear that they would be unable to complete their thoughts or their sentence before a very predictable curtailing of their contribution (I commend Dr. Kaufman here for largely keeping his cool and being more assertive than most others that I have seen in the same situation, and that without being boar-ish, which is a Herculean feat). As a viewer, the many untimely interruptions take away from some of my overall enjoyment of the content, because I can feel the discomfort of those not given a fair or equal chance to contribute to these conversations. Now, have I learnt a lot from Dr. Peterson? Yes, of course (though, in this particular conversation, I do wish that they had used less academic language ... but it is what it is ... I managed to follow to a reasonable degree). Dr. Peterson is a masterful communicator (verbally) but a huge part of communication is listening, and in a dialogue or a discussion with multiple people, I would love to see more balanced give-and-take. I am equally keen on hearing all parties. Overall, though, I am enjoying the discussion ... a little over 30 mins to go ... almost there ...
Very interesting.. so many concepts here I would like exploring
I find very interesting that a canadien psychology would associate politeness with authority, because i find very interesting that in Canada the use of the word sir is associated to the respect of the other often in authority like your boss or an elderly person but in the states i find that at least half the time the people will use the word sir regardless of who they are talking to, it seems to have more to do about themselves and how they want to present themselves to the world..
We hold this truth to be self evident
They mostly talked about things that they already agreed on...so that made it easier to have an agreeable conversation.
Took JBP test, I am open, agreeable, neurotic & conscientious. HELP, as I am a sponge to the emotions of others. How do I deplete neuroticism, to Really live the life I know I could!
Such a brilliant conversation with an intellect which was way beyond my own human intelligence as only a retired environmental engineer but I loved every minute, thank you. I agree Scott that there is so much 'lectured' at us now, rather than listening empathetically to us. Along with SO much umbrage taken about the most minimal thing said. There is to me what seems a like a great big Chinese whisper going on with all this new mindset information and findings flying about that are no more than 'a fashion to say something' in many different ways with the only underlying view to make money for them really. Thanks for your honesty and grounded information.
Don't sell yourself short, Sally
Great conversation!
Very enlightening, there’s not one endeavor that doesn’t include human nature. Thanks for the content!
Being an integrator is a great way to live and see the world. Speaking as a psychiatrist trained to manage disparate factors.
Good conversation. On the topic of your naivete. You might want to look to stoicism here. One of the foundational principles of stoicism is to not try to control things you don't control. The other is to control the things you do control. Developing the ability to tell the difference is key.
When it comes to other people you have very little control. You do have control over what you say and how you react to what they say. So focus on that.
This stuff is so fascinating. This is why the conservatives are driven mad by Biden’s border situation. The left hates borders and the right wants them. Neither will budge. I think podcasts may be the last hope for intelligent conversation between both leanings. If we can somehow get the politicians to have these podcast conversations. Here’s to hoping!!
So good. So many thought provoking ideas. Jordan's interview with Gad Saad blew my mind too.
Whoa, I'm familiar with your older podcasts, and your talking speed is so much different in this one. Very interesting to see how you adapt your speed to the pacing of your conversation partner Scott! Of course Jordan talks in a very rapid way, so I thought it was cool how you matched that rhythm.
Hey now! As a 53-year old high-orderly, high-openness gal, I'm gonna say meet some more of us (before you throw Hitler in the mix). I'm currently a poet. Also, life-long conservative, art teacher, fiction-lover and border-lover. I HATE physically disgusting things, and dirty language, but I like modern art, modern music, languages and linguistics. I raised 4 non-sticky, non-violent children.
Agreeableness 26%
Conscientiousness 59%
Extraversion 88%
Neuroticism 13%
Openness 89%
You both are tapping into some wonderful studies. I would volunteer to be one of your subjects. Here are my big 5 results. Agreeableness: 93% compassion; 65% politeness. Conscientiousness: 44% industriousness; 84% Orderliness. Extraversion: 86% enthusiasm; 36% Assertiveness. Neurotism: 96% withdrawal; 99% Volatility 😬. Openess: 87% openess; 60% Intellect. I also recently graduated Summa Cum Laude with a 4.0 with a BA in Psychology and Social Work minor. I'm 45. I do not know my I.Q. but I do know I struggle with timed tests and testing, but write very well and my strengths were in essays and contemplative reasoning. I'm fascinated with both your approaches to personality and the individual's success in society. I never quite feel that I fit into any groups, yet I get along with everyone. I believe in the value of every human both good and bad by societies standards. If you both are looking to collaborate on a future study please reach out I would love to contribute in any way possible.
Thanks for sharing
"The process is more important than the content." sounds like "The medium is the message."
Re: teaching, and the future of education
Parker Palmer lays out a very thought-through dialogic way of teaching a class in his book 'The Courage to Teach'. I think it's right down Dr Peterson and Dr Kaufman's alley.
Brilliant conversation, many thanks, I got here after many years of following Jordan. Excellent Podcast please keep on giving, heartfelt appreciation.
I agree what the Perterson said about Richard Dawkins...
SIMPLY BRILLIANT. This was a blast! Thanks!!
you guys are very cool together
you should have interviewed dr. anders ericsson the author of the book peak before he passed away
I would have liked that very much. We have had many great personal conversations over the years.
Exactly how is your comment helpful?
I love this
Great stuff!
Well id still like to see jordan talk to nassim taleb about IQ statistics, i dont understand either side as much as id like to.
44:37 I would think politeness is not about respect for authority but about recognition of sovereign (and distinct) others, which might be an interpersonal manifestation of borders which circles back to conscientiousness.
Good one.
peterson figured out a ton in this. well done.
One needs to keep in mind that Frankl forged a role for himself where some of his signature strengths (Seligman) were still being partly put to some use. Maslows hierarchy is surely out of date?
Sometimes, when they’re playing a win/lose game…power/ dominance…..just smile and say “you win”. And change the subject.
15:30 i wonder if it's dissociation of these networks or net fxn of these networks
17:15 I wonder if this is where maturation/life experiences can influence IQ, especially if you have an investigative-type of mind - like IQ is mostly genetic, but experiences maybe induce expression of IQ-related genes as you get odler
28:40 this seems like something psychedelic experiences stimulate - openness to experience relative to oneself
34:00 would this high openness influence overall executive fxn, which may be associated w/ IQ? in this case, experience may influence IQ?
38:15 true imitation is important
42:00 I think the "borders" sustain identity = meaning, so that's why it's so contentious with respect to people w/ temperamental predisposition
50:10 interesting - integrated hierarchy of needs
1:02:40 I wonder how this is representative w/ Carl Jung's synchronicity idea - where the narrative and objective world cross in an integrated mode of being
1:03:40 very interesting - sense of meaning is ultimate grounding in one's nervous system
1:08:10 interesting. this touches on religious values
1:11:10 productive reciprocity is a universal human truth
1:13:08 tender defender is most attractive to women
1:47:15 haha interesting. yea it doesn't seem that Sam is not keen to the idea of having a moral framework for the integration of that higher sense of self - he disregards the necessity, bc he is able to just "be" w/ that sense via meditating and not have an urge to conceptualize it concretely otherwise
Beautiful episode
I'm high IQ, low/mid effort - nightmare for failing ones potential. Easy life though.
There is a slight overestimation of humans, as clever people tend to think about others from their perspective and imagine some features which in fact aren't true for everyone... but it is good to believe in humanity.
52:50 oof… this describes me 😬
When someone has an IQ of 60 or 70, very typical in the US today,...even if it is only 25 or 30% of abilities...there are grave issues putting those people in most jobs.
How is it typical 'today'? You mean mental retardation is getting more common?
The typical IQ is between 95-103. 70 is rare
By definition an IQ within the range of 60-70 is as rare as an IQ within the range of 130-140. Merely a couple of percent of the population fit inside those ranges combined.
I don’t at all understand what was so controversial about this that it prompted a clubhouse room specifically addressing this conversation.
Politeness is amongst the citizens not authority which is respect
Very informative discussion. As a longtime Humanistic/Transpersonal Psycholgist and now Coach, this is full of insights and data
I'll say, being highly open myself, that the reliability problem is very real. But it's more than a challenge. I spent years practicing discipline and order. I did well. Except for one thing: it felt like I was killing myself.
I was dying on the vine. After over a decade of "getting serious" I felt a million years old and had zero purpose, I finally tried MDMA for the first time and i can say that it saved my life.
I think that the fundamental nature of these characteristics is much more than numbers on a dial. It's even more serious than "traits" which point to tendencies and skill acquisition. In other words it isn't an arrangement of bricks, it's the material the bricks are composed of, person to person, as well..
When I say "saved my life" that's not an exaggeration. I was highly successful financially and socially, was married to a great woman, And etc. People envied me at the time. But I was horribly miserable, and no matter what I did, there was zero relief. Only when I started learning new things again, participating in art projects and attending burning man did I finally feel like I had something to live for.
Ah, 'to see eternity in a grain of sand'! Sometimes only such a jolt will deliver a shift in perception... The ancient (from whatever tradition) had rites of passage... how deceptively rich but in essence how meagre and limited our current adolescence is by comparison and the materialistic transhumanism planned for mankind is designed to rob us of even that...
I would like to know how Dr. Peterson defines “Liberal” and “Conservative”.
I scored 100% on openess and around 10% on neuroticism with big 5... I feel lucky and the discussions on openess mid video are giving more understanding but originally I've wondered how a human arrives to the space of 100% openess. Lately I'm trying to identify with childhood trauma and how that affects IQ and openess... passing thought, perhaps high degree openess could be a correlated survival trait? Or vice versa lower iq with childhood trauma injury... Either way I am wondering if my compassion and unique childhood have created my core traits? Thanks if anyone can comment.
So... Scott was on Jordan's podcast to interview Jordan?
Great work, and Jordan, You are looking really well.
I would love to see Jordan take on the challenge of proper and improper context of scripture as they relate to false prophets and or the ignorant . He would make a good author of a book called " Proper context of All 66 books of the Holy Bible " . We can debate what scripture means or doesn't mean , but only if the proper context in which it was written stays in the forefront of the discussion . Preacher's that preach out of context may mean well , But provide the atheist a strong argument against religion itself threw confusion and inconsistency . Confusion and inconsistency that otherwise wouldn't exist . I promise you , if you get confused reading scripture it's because of past indoctrination of improper context of scripture .
There's one point of debate that makes it not just _easy_ to "disbelieve" a god exists, but perfectly logical.
Preaching "out of context" may be a faith-stopper for some as well, but the following statements are something that one cannot see their way out of and no one has _ever_ been able to reconcile it:
a) god _doesn't exist_
b) god exists but _does not have the power to interfere with the lives of human beings_
c) god exists, and he does have the power to interfere in the daily lives of humans _but chooses not to_
That god is either a myth, or he doesn't have the power to act in our lives (what then makes him a god?) or he does have the power to interfere in our lives but doesn't (he is a sadist and possibly the devil) is enough to make me conclude he doesn't exist
Inasmuch as there is at least a gross of different areas of the brain dealing with varied functions, how can there not be at that many types of intelligence? I have always wondered about this question, but have never done any detailed study of the matter. So, I wonder why this never comes into any discussion of IQ.
1.14 and sexual selection, Jordan should quote Rollo Tommasi more often!
Gentlemen, I'm a Scorpio and open about information and some forms of neuroticism, however, not interested in leftist liberalism. Perhaps I misunderstood this topic. Very interesting conversation.
Perception, behavior and Political views are manifested by your personality so you are not wrong. Check out Jordan Peterson's Personality And Its Transformations lecture series
I know one of the traits of the Big Five is Greed!
Backed up by what exactly? Do you measure people by how greedy they are in both action and in thought?
If someone got a false grade on an IQ test that was much higher than what they should have gotten, do you feel this would have any impact on their future intelligence, IQ or what they pursue in society? And vice versa.. such as if they got a much lower grade than what actually were.
👏👏
Omg I'm so proud to have read the first dozen or so comments and nobody is talking about the stupid orb(bug). I'm obviously in the right place.
How does g intelligence think about things like autism?
Also in my case I have a crazy good memory for physical movement but not academic s, how does that work?
LMAO I thought Jordan Peterson was talking with Chino from Deftones by glancing at the thumbnail alone
Brilliant, the bit on sexual selection was a dead set bulls eye. Also partially related, I say this not to reinforce a pre-set position but as an interesting observation.. when it comes to random genetic mutations you rarely.. if ever see a mutation that cascades a species into a positive direction, based on the actions they took or needed to take during their lives, actually when you see genetic mutations at all they're overwhelmingly awful in the form of large scale disfiguration or one or many tumors. The more I think of it the less likely I see it that all this absolutely staggering and vast variety was part of a process of random genetic mutation, the odds on that would break anything that tried to figure it. Genetics, the genetic code is information, something that exists to inform an entity on how to grow precisely. Information, a blue print, where you find blue prints, information, you find intelligence. I think it's very likely we're dealing with some sort of architect or universal designer who cleverly built a sort of self intelligence within it dependent on the specific blue print plus local environmental factors in real time. One reason being as to not have to micro manage, two as to produce variety, three as to produce a will that is free.
Type of convo Id luv to have on a random Tuesday night; where does one find such people?
Edit-53:08 Narc to Empath 53:15 Groundbreaking
1:23:33 Cluster Bs lol wow this stuff needs to be cartooned and taught to children... could thatve been the original intention of comic books
Luv JP but we need to make the societal connection on why 1:33:59 wasnt applied to scenario 1:29:45 we say we’re in search of truth but we’re apprehensive to act on it; that woman may never again in life receive that instantaneous surgery or connect the dots over time then she has sons what happens to her and the boys? We need to think this shit through World
1:30:30 For empath CLevels
Dr. Barry, I really relate to your confession on naivety at ua-cam.com/video/3UuqpmhSg_k/v-deo.html . Dr. Peterson says it takes courage to be open, despite being hurt in the past, even if you might have to 'take the hit'. I can see that, but over the past year I've also learned to see it as grace. Which I've further learned to define as; not being offended when I love someone more than they love me. (btw, I'm 90th percentile in openness with many autistic traits)
Watching and listening to this while listening to Pelican at one third the volume. Wondering if a fish can climb a tree anyway despite what wise men say.
IQ is the ability to learn and if I understand it properly the ability or IQ is based on abstraction. Umm...guess we have to have a basis to distinguish people to justify the distinction itself...and it is 25% predictable of success which is the best we can muster so far...what about the other 75% ...and humans to change over time for a Varity of reasons that are not abstract based... openness is just but one example...where does each of our individual spirituality and connection with Father come into play in this success? Of course that means what your definition of "success" actually means:) Your suggestion of "weeding out" (distinguishing) students after the first year of college, law school, medical school etc... is quite brilliant and would probably up the 25% figure to 75%...lol
Atleast have the decency to link Jordans Podcast, to where this came from
he gave all the info you would need to find it. hell, just type in jordan peterson.
Very interesting.
I also cant believe Jordan Peterson excist. How can a human be so smart?
The deep breaths ?💀
Don’t talk about group IQ differences, Mr. Psychologist. That’s a place thou shalt not tread upon.
its jordan pertersons podcast
Good conversation. However its definitely naive of Scott. Had he not witnessed and listened to the famous BBC interview with Cathy Newman about equality for women.
It really was a classic demonstration where the journalist behaved with disregard and disrespect towards Jordan and it did not favour well for Cathy. Dr Peterson managed her with great skill. That's good modelling in the face of a cynical debate. Cynicism coming from the journalist.
Learn about narssiscism. HG Tudor will help you.
I listened to this months ago on Peterson's podcast, I'm halfway through this one but I can't continue because Jordan keeps bogarting the goddamn conversation :-/
Nice! I see you finally realized Truth...lol
I think you’re forgetting that an error in measuring IQ can have serious effects on someone’s life, it’s not just a measurement error. I know you’re talking conceptually but I’m not sure why you would want to reduce all the data to one factor. How many people get very similar verbal and performance scores? I would guess not that many. It’s clear to me that there’s something more to most problems than just G and that’s
interesting also, why are we better at applying intelligence in some areas and not others? In my mind the only way to fairly get at real intelligence would be to come up with truly novel problems that aren’t influenced by experience. I haven’t thought about all this for a while and it’s all very exciting, but practically, since I have seen kids who don’t take these kind of tests well lose out on scholarships, college and program admission, and feeling good about their cognitive abilities, I’m not comfortable with just being conceptual.
When are these two guys going to come out?
It’s hard to follow; a bit confusing.
Im not sure IQ isnt important, it seems like it is, not my field.
But defending IQ, by saying its the most instructive test in the most significant field of the social sciences, is not compelling.
You only need to multiply by zero once to bring the whole equation back down to earth.
As evidenced by your first sentence, IQ does indeed not appear to be your field.