'Troubled' Ajax armoured vehicle could still be another 18 months from service
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- Опубліковано 12 вер 2024
- Britain’s new armoured vehicle Ajax might not enter service for another 18 months, after years of delays over technical difficulties.
The Ministry of Defence project to build 589 of the state-of-the-art vehicles has prompted severe criticism having been running for nearly 13 years without yet providing a single deployable vehicle.
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Hard to make the argument of not having big enough of a budget when you see the amount of money that this has taken to just get to this stage,the argument of just getting CV 90 vehicles can't be ignored
Given the current situation a separate order for a couple of hundred CV90's might make some sense.
Puma is better, Puma is the best
buy Puma
@Pesmog how long do you think that will take...
After all is said and done, I hope the MoD will look for some learnings from this procurement disaster. The taxpayer needs to be assured their money is not being wasted and the troops need assurance that they are getting the right kit.
100%
Modifications to the seats and headsets doesn't exactly scream, 'We've fixed the problems'
Yep... covered it up because they can't fix it.
@@1966babysnakes The Spanish welded up the hulls out of spec. I'm talking jigs not set up to spec or even used at all.
It's industrial sabotage and 100% there were / are people at the Spanish factory that sabotaged the hulls. This isn't from poor quality control.
I'd also argue Ajax is a money laundering program because the government refuses to talk about why the Ajax has vibrations in the first place and the lack of investigation on the Spanish manufacturing.
If Ajax fails and we don't sue Spain it proves money laundering imo.
@@v4skunk739 Sounds unlikely. Any proof? They were moving the assembly to the UK in 2015.
Major Noise/Vibration and Harshness issues, you think they’ll change engine mounts, add anti-NVH material, softer bushings, modified dampeners, springs, change hydro-pneumatic suspension components, but no. They modify the seats and add more hearing protection… worrying
@@Ianmundo Yeah, sounds like they just tightened some screws. After a few years of use, or even worse, under rugged conditions of a real war, same problems crop up again.
I hope the crew's affected by injuries/damage will be supported short AND long term.
🤣
We all know they wont.
just got a pay-out and that was it
So for the same money (roughly) we could have 700 odd CV90 up and running by now, no?
That too with greater interoperability and upgrade options into the future. The cv90 itself has a recce variant with a telescopic mast… something the ajax lacks and yes drones are more prevalent but a mast won’t be jammed as easily.
That too we could replace our aging warriors with a normal ifv cv90 as well to save on costs and buying in bulk.
Furthermore we’d be supporting BAE a uk company whereas general dynamics uk is just a branch of the American manufacturer that set up a subsidiary with subpar resources and employees just to win a contract that seems like it had no care in the world to look out for the fabrication issues on the hull. Not to say MOD have no fault but BAE would’ve gotten us farther, who knows how many would be operational by now.
@@aquillandscroll6428good points, and we could then have sent the Warriors to Ukraine. The decision to pick Ajax over CV90 has weakened British security, Ukrainian security, European security.
Reckon we’re now pinning our hopes on tracked Boxer and IFV Boxer module. Could work.
The orderbook is long now for the CV 90 in Sweden but I quess that if they had gone with the Cv 90 the production could have been started in Brittain aswell. The are trying to expand the production capacity in the Swedish plant but it will take alot of time. // From a Swede
@@Jarran91 Yes, I am aware of the order backlog as well, but we started this program in 2010, had we gone with bae we’d be receiving it very shortly. Not to mention the fact that as you’ve mentioned production could be easily expanded to uk as BAE is a uk company so technology and skill transfer wouldn’t be that difficult to set up another production line in the UK. We’d also have a future facility for the warrior replacement as well but leave it to mod procurement and gduk to sell a faulty product, a ‘gimmick’.
@@aquillandscroll6428 Yeah it's a shame but I hope they sort it out. The soldiers deserve a decent vehicle. Europe needs to be strong.
The Aussies asked the british army what they thought of the vehicle in relation to there own IFV procurement. The british reply was run away. This was clearly a bone thrown to GD after we de selected piranha V in favour of boxer when we really should have selected CV90. This will always be a polished turd.
I was a young naïf when I first heard that the British Army was going to adopt the Ajax and Boxer. I thought the Boxer variants were going to partially replace their aging CVR(T) and FV430 counterparts, whilst the Ajax was an infantry fighting vehicle replacing the old Warriors. But then I learnt more about what was going on, especially with Ajax, and it made me a bit sad.
I still don't understand why the UK didn't just get the CV90 ? BAE is a British company, they could have built it in the UK, problem solved.
The problem with the Boxer is its own success. They have so many orders, they literally can't build them fast enough, and now there are tensions on who has priority on the Boxer deliveries. A second production line needs to be built.
Europeans should finally get their act together and make common platforms. The British should have teamed up with the Germans, Italians, Swedes and Dutch, since they have always built great projects together.
The French are difficult to work with, since they want access to tech, but they don't want to share their tech with their partners, yet at the same time they are selling tech to Russia.
@@scratchy996 Boxer manufacturing starts in the UK this year. So that won't be an issue.
@@overcorpse That's good news.
@@scratchy996 the answer is because of bae
@@MrRambo438 Because of BAE what ?
Is it just me that think they should just getting the new cv90
More importantly... apart from the program and development problems ... how good is it for it's role over the next 20 years or so?
They should just choose the most reliable ifv the cv90 of bae systems hagglunds
or the most awsome IFV the Puma
Cut your losses and buy cv90 family
Just buy cv90
Buying Spanish over Swedish.. What did you expect? 😅🤷♂️
And the CV90 is manufactured by a BAE subsidiary - so "British owned"!
@@paulg3216 The only thing that is British about BAE is the B in their name.
The best product that Sweden can make with metal is a can for Surströmming, the rotten fish that the Swedes eat. Speaking of ridiculous failures, the Swedes even have a museum that recalls their splendid history of know-how: the Vasa Museum. 😂🤣🤣
@@MP-lm7nn And where are you from?
Let’s not say it is back on track, when it wasn’t on track to start with.
just kill it and get either the CV90 or Lynx, RBSL have liscenes to produce either vehicles
Should have just gone and purchased theCV90 or attempted to get the licence to build the CV90 to UK spec if UK industry is such a major concern with new projects and pumping talent and skills into those fields. Building new was just stupid and boneheaded.
It wasn't new, it was an adapted ASCOD, CV90 would also have needed adapting.
I agree. Let’s hope the Army chooses proven platforms with minor mods next time over something which just seems so over complicated, expensive and of course, late.
they could buy the Puma and use British armor, sensors and alike
@@user-er8tr9kt8lstop banging on about Puma, everyone wants CV90 not Puma
@@terrytumble162 but Puma is *the* über-IFV ...
The CV90 is great for sure but the basic design is quite old by now.
To be fair, it’s unquestionable that the Ajax program has had difficulties but I’d much rather they take their time, properly try to fix the problems and bring it into service ONLY once they have a machine that is truly capable instead of rushing it into operation in order to avoid criticism and avoid taking the financial hit. Ultimately the hope is that, once it is in service, this thing would have been put through years of vigorous testing and so will actually work once it is on the battlefield.
Sounds like we should not be giving this company (based on Virginia USA) any more contacts. What a waste of money.
Just get the CV90 and be done with it
They haven't fixed the issues,just changed the language to get it over the wire so people can get paid,crews will suffer while others profit,typical tories
Programme was awarded under Labour Government
But the Tories are pushing it over the finish line ignoring the issues
Look so long as we get it and it works well im happy for delays . I would rather we having somthing that works than rushed out the door .
Rushed out of the door !!! Good job we’re not facing war…..ohhh blow me down with a feather we are.
CV90 Mk 4s available from a BAE land systems near you.
I thought after Afghanistan with the UOR purchases the MoD had learnt that off the shelf stuff is a great way to go.
Wouldn't it have been much easier and cheaper to get BAE Hagglunds to design a CV90 variant that would fit our requirements that we could then buy a production license for?
Its called off the shelf for a reason mate. It should be good enough when you buy it as is. If it gets people forward safely. And can violently change annyone's mind about trying to touch your troops its doing the job. Its all this customizing that got the Ajax where it is.
@@thijshagenbeek8853 exactly.
When will the MoD learn?... Just buy proven, reliable, decent technology, in quantity, with sufficient munitions. It's not as hard as they make out it is.. most of the procurement team behind this disaster (one would hope) regularly go to the supermarket with an idea of what to make for dinner, buy the correct ingredients within budget, follow the recipe and eat the prepared food at a normal dinner time... They just need to pop on their big boy pants, learn their lessons from what they did at dinner time and take that revolutionary mindset to work with them each day.
So its the SA80 in a vehicle format. No overseas sales due to bad publicity.
I sincerely hope General Dynamics are made to pay compensation to those soldiers with hearing damage and long term effects caused by vibration. It's the only way to keep these people honest.
GD aren't to blame.
The MoD added literally dozens of 'enhancements' to the requirements so the vehicle weight and centre of gravity rocketed without any changes you the suspension and drives to compensate and it's that which produced the issues.
The MoD is, as ever, not up to a procurement task.
@@JammyDodger45 who fitted the enhancements?
@@JammyDodger45 requirements are the prime's responsibility to integrate. A fundamental issue with track alignment and poor track tensioning is an engineering issue, not an MOD one. GDUK are absolutely to blame.
@@tankie2ndrtr - if a requirement is not in the original scope and that requirement ups the weight of the vehicle by circa 25% then the suspension design will not cope with it.
That's down to the MoD changing things not GD.
This isn't an issue of track tensioning, we're not talking about running a Chally 1 over Soltau and getting a bit of track slap.
When the C1 became the C2 did they stick with the same drives and track or was it redesigned to cope with the different mass and dynamics?
Should that cost have been born by Royal Ordnance Factory as they built the C1?
@@JammyDodger45 rubbish, you wouldn't buy a new car with a few factory extras only for the dealer to turn round and state the warranty is void when you've got a problem
Can it. Take CV90 instead. Commonality and great performance off the shelf. Refuse BOWMAN fit, tell BaE what comms are needed,, the requirements and Hagglunds will make it so
Bowman is supposed to be replace by Morpheus , this project is late , underfunded and difficult to achieve without Microsoft or Apple resources which GD does not have !
What a waste of taxpayers money 😪
Eventually the RAC will receive a platform with at least 13 years between commencement and IOC.
They will receive it just in time for its "mid life" update.
Great example of Defence procurement for various Staff Colleges around the world.
I thought the initial procurement started back in approx 90/91 with the concept of TRACER, which was either to be wheeled or tracked, it underwent numerous changes including name changes before AJAX was decided.
Why in the name of... did not buy CV90?? Whyyy?
The perfect embodiment of the sunk-cost fallacy.
We get it you study business. High five mate!
R.I.P
At this rate the UK should have just bought the Bradley or CV90 and modified them to British standards.
Oh c'mon, it's nuts .... go for the modern cv90- a proven British/Swedish ifv , truly magnificent, and support British industry with a top ifv!
CV90 says hi
What a waste of money. Should of upgraded Warrior at the fraction of the price
The way Poland is doing now,
Combining a redback vehicle with its own turret is the answer.
Why do the British armed forces need bespoke kit for everything? There are dozens of APC and AFV designs already in production out there to choose from.
Because it means more easy money for the Prime contractors who the procurement civil serpents hope to get jobs and kickbacks from. Not to mention that the MOD civil servants from the early 2000's on arent capable of managing their way out of a paper bag.
Why didn't they purchase the Spanish Pizarro, which is a trusted fighting vehicle? Pizarro was developed in accordance with Austria and later on purchased by General Dynamics. So why this AJAX mess??? 😮😮😮
I bet Britain wishes they picked the Swedish 90/40 system.
Meanwhile the CV90 is making this look stupid.
In other words your going to get them like it or not .
What a joke, a vehicle which will be closer to it's expiry date before it enters service. It's like backing a three-legged horse and still believing it can win.
Only 245 of them have the 40MM Autocannon- I would be very anxious if I were one of the crewmen expected to take one of these Ajax vehicles knowing the high likelihood it'll be the RWS version with only a 7.62mm machine gun to protect itself, compare that to a fight against Russia where even their old AFV's have 14.5mm cannons, 30mm Autocannons and/or guided ATGM's like the BMP's...
@@FunnyVideoCollector Emphasis on "some"
They aren't IFVs. They are reconnaissance, command, recovery etc. Rather than lightly armed battle mainstays they are heavily armoured support.
@@davidhouseman4328 Recovery variants of the Ajax vehicle make up a small portion around 38, command is not the role outlined by the British MOD, but reconnaissance is, to specifically replace the CVR(T) class of vehicles the main one being the FV107 Scimitar, of which, have all been forced in to the infantry fighting role in every major British military campaign including operation iraqi freedom, the war on terror, the falklands and so on, reconnaissance specifically within the new 1st Deep Recce Strike Brigade combat team, emphasis on combat, the role outlined is calling in fire missions and air assets while directly engaging the enemy. Let's talk about what the MOD outlined for this vehicles use, part of the 2015 Strategic Defence and Security Review the Ajax is now the sole provider of direct fire support for the Army's direct strike brigades, the 2021 Integrated Review of Security, Defence, Development and Foreign Policy outlines yet again its dependency on the Ajax for it's direct fire support role seeing how the warrior is being phased out in preparation for the Boxer armoured vehicle.
@@Ben_From_Marketing Ajax like Scimitar has the main gun. There were plenty of Spartans, Samson etc. in the CVR(T) group like there are Ares, Atlas, etc.
@@davidhouseman4328 Which returns us to the original comment; only 245 of them have 40MM Autocannons.
So it's only quiet enough to pass the bar because of extra hearing protection in helmets? Not good enough
was the civvies that brought it up not the people that will actually use it.
@@jamesamas5527 that it was to noisy? It was the hearing injury to users more than anything tbh
@@ricardosmythe2548 yh, was the civvies that actually made the complaints about it
@@jamesamas5527 yh, I'm sure none of the users minded losing their hearing 🙈
@@ricardosmythe2548 wasnt as bad as people make it out to be. guarantee all those that claimed had previous issues and/or played it up to be worse than it was in order to get a claim in
@0:16 The symbolic colors of the Ukrainian flag superimposed on the (his) Union Jack patch seems to be placed upside down.
Well spotted... what a moron... both Jack is upside-down as well as the wheat fields growing in the sky...
General Dynamics…..is that a US Company ? Don’t we have the design or manufacturing capability in this country ? Did I see a portacabin in the B&Q car park in Newcastle where the Vickers tank factory used to be ?
How much taxpayers money greases General Dynamics and I just wonder if there is any link to the Tory party ?
What is the difference between Ajax and Ascod2?
Watching this shortly after it was actually accepted into service and put into mass production :D
Military procurement must be a nightmare job.Geneal Dynamics have been unbelievably slow here. Are they delivering a message. So much blame, everyone can have some.
How can you have a recce vehicle thats so noisy you need double hearing protection, so the noise issue has not been resolved then? it defeats the purpose of a recce vehicle, they should scrap this thing, and whats with the drivers hatch on a single hinge, as soon as that thing takes a hit, the hatch will blow off. You need something relatively small and quiet, this is not it.
In WW2 vehicles were innovated and created in very little time. Why are military systems so inefficient and incompetent now?
18 month is nothing compared to the 14 years we've waited already.
Should we be relieved ?
Ironing out problems isn't the vehicle it's a failure of R & D but at least they're making sure its fit for purpose before it hits the battlefield, which is an improvement on the past.
CV 90 now it's not rocket science also what do expect when you get the yanks involved
Just cut the losses and buy CV90s
Why does it vibrate and cause so much noise?
Too noisy, better earmuffs, I can see its a well thought out and engineered solution.
Was the MOD asking too much from the base design back then? And who it completing against during the competition?
The Spartan was ok.
Why not just update it?
R
God bless all our brave soldiers,. Your still the best army in the world 👍🇬🇧
Just get the CV90 mk4!
So didn’t actually deal with the causes of noise and vibration issues just patched it up with ear and west protection and adjusting control panel. Ajax should be scrapped and general dynamics should give a refund back.
They collected staged production payments, quality control was not part of this so their lawyers would prevent any refund!
No quality control, which is the basic of the machinery industry. Vibration and noise due to poor suspension compared to excessive demand weight. Design faults, production and assembly defects. A basic flaw that cannot even be thought of in Western developed countries.
ISO 9001 is a paperwork exercise , companies who pay for this tend to steer the inspectors to areas they want them to check and give them nice lunches , They never talk to workshop staff about quality or ask any questions !
If they cant handle that extra noise, then I dont think they can handle much worse experiences in the battlefield.
118 db lol
Guys just poly bush everything, problem solved ,shouldn't be a problem for the British Army ,i personally think we should be putting adleast 10%gdp into the military and also a big recruitment drive loads of good jobs for British boys and girls ,they are the reason we all sleep safe and sound at night !!!
lol the only thing successful about this procurement is the obscene amount of money it has made General Dynamics. wait, what did you say? that was the only goal of this procurement from the beginning? oh ok, gotcha.
Maybe if the UK was at war things would be different. Nothing like bombs falling on one's head or an invasion force a few miles away to focus the mind. Equipment was developed and perfected in weeks and months not years during the last two World Wars. Admittedly not everything worked as thought but some inventions were brilliant and completely out of the box thinking.
Keep up the good work guys ,we will make it work if anybody can ,i really like it think it will be good on the battlefield💪 🇬🇧RULE BRITANNIA 💯❤🙏🏴
Ivan! I can hear a whole battalion of tanks behind that hill!..... No, cancel that - it's one of those Ajax tommy-cookers.
The thing looks like the yanks APC in Vietnam, a box on tracks with a "penetrate here" sign.
Imagine green lighting a project before even seriously testing it. You have a vehicle shaking the people inside so bad it cause physical damage to the people and so loud it causes hearing damage. I guess my British ancestors aren’t know for their vehicle manufacturing skills. BAE on the other hand, that’s just embarrassing.
If this was a horse it would have been shot already. All when CV90 is sitting there performing like a dream.
Extremely unconvincing
If ear muffs and seat cushions actually cured the problem, why wasn't this simple fix done 10 years ago?
As long as the tea machine is working.
If they delivered a vehicle (modified from one that already had been in service elsewhere) with such vibration and noise that it could not be used, then it is a dog and no amount of fiddling will ever put it right
As soon as it was found that the sides were of different sizes and welding was sub standard it should have been cancelled and money demanded returned .this is what you get when you don't run trials to see who makes the best kit ( bae systems have one ready to go but we're not considered , smells of backhanders, ) there is a company in England reported that they could stabilise the rarden cannon and upgrade warrior to near ajax standards for a fraction of the cost but the MOD went with a company who have been accused around the world of bribery.
Should never have bothered with this lemon, should have gone with the try'd and tested cv90 system
Scrap it and get CV90
How in the world a project like that got an approval? Don't they have a development and evaluation phase?
As far as i concern, the ASCOD 2 | Sabrah Light Tank variant by Elbit system, The Philipine Army haven't expirience problem on vibration and hearing issue during trials today.
Meanwhile the ASCOD 2 | AJAX variant did get that issue already.
While the Pizzaro and Ulan variant fielded by Spaniard army and the Austrian army didn't.
Why is it then?
They all use the same platform but why the British expirience such bad during trials? why they get the worst one? also why they didn't choose the CV-90 instead?
Perhaps Israel have manufacturing quality control instead of ISO box ticking paperwork quality control ?
In this day and age these are embarrassing problems. Modern diesels are so refined and with modern CAD these issues just shouldn't happen. Climb into any new heavy plant and you hardly know it's running!
Maybe contractor could ease of stock buybacks and dividends and use the $ for core business product.
The Poles order their APC's in South Korea. Those seem to work pretty well...
In Forces News we trust
The defense minister should not be wearing camouflage or anything that looks like a military uniform.
He is a former serving military officer.
True
@@davidhouseman4328 so he should know what he is doing then
Also as a previous comment said... he also at 0:16sec should know when his flag patch is upside-down...
@@davidhouseman4328 He's not one now. Theres no justification for him to still be in uniform of any sort apart from to massage his ego.
"WHERE'S FRANCIS?!?!"
I'd say it's a joke, but it's not funny.
Once they are given to the squaddies the real testing begins
Ben Wallace is awesome
During peace time no mic want's a speedy development.
Anybody know why the politician had to wear camouflage, and at one point what looked like a flak jacket?
Strip the extra armour off and the problems will be solved
It’s almost as if nobody had any project management and procurement skills
When the product was named after the famous Toilet cleaner, the signs were there money was to be flushed away. My own Ajax stands by for "immediate deployment", whenever a challenging task arises.
profiteering at its finest, just cut the losses and buy swedish. the ajax looks so flat any kind of round is going to turn everybody inside into soup
Is this guy the right man for the job? Our armed forced has almost vanished.
They vanished before he was appointed his role. Since he has been appointed his role the military has gotten necessary upgrades and much needed improvements. He is ex military and loves his job. Ben wallace is one of the best ministers especially for defense.
@@ashleygoggs5679 that’s right. He’s clearly passionate about the military still and wants to put some polish on the turd the conservatives have created through austerity.
@@anecdotal_mattybs5435 It wasnt the conservatives that created this mess. The mess started mostly under Tony Blair. Blair abused the military criminally, the army barely had any significant upgrades under him and got tons of cuts. The Conservatives agreeably were not any better, but atleast once Boris was in power Upgrades and purchases started rolling off the conveyor belt. Ben Wallace was Boris's Minister of Defence and it is becuase of Wallace we are getting another military review and hopefully this time it will be done properly. Lets not forget that challenger 3, boxer, and many new frigate and destoryer designs of the future were done through Johnsons administration. We also bought the new apache AH64E and we also have the up and coming tempest project and alot of money has also been invested by the conservative government into British engineering and R&D. Under May and Cameron the military got neglected and under Johnson it was reinvigorated and Sunak seems to have a some what similar stance luckily but i guess maybe the commonality there is ben wallace whos now served under 3 pms
@@ashleygoggs5679 are you deluded? Man power and basic items in the inventory like tanks AFV’s here, artillery etc have been cut/neglected and left to decline for years. Boris focussed on big ticket items for PR and self publicity and changed nothing. I served in both labour and conservative years and both were bad but the worst part is the past decade being told that down is up and up is down by people like Boris. Two carriers and barely enough ships for one carrier group in total, minimal surveillance and anti sub warfare planes, typhoons that haven’t been kept up to date with the latest upgrades and training for pilots taking 5 yrs. I know sgt’s and sgt mjrs in the marines today that are having to do double the workload and lads probably would end up the same. There was that report about the uk no longer being a tier 1 armed forces and I can believe it. They’ve focussed on the appearances that can be crowed about without backing it up. Labour were a decade ago. Couldn’t care less about them tbh. Boris was worse because he mislead people and enabled this even more.
No, but the rising tide lifts all boats. This joker is just the latest in a never ending stream of utter clowns to get the SofS gig. Its been going downhill since Portillo in the mid-90's.
still be armored for another month
It’s just a updated warrior that’s all it is cos it looks like it
I'd rather drive a tescos shopping trolly mounted with 303
TYPICAL MOD