4K TV’s Widest Color Gamut is Pointless (just like 8K!)
Вставка
- Опубліковано 29 вер 2024
- 2020 4K TVs charge more for extra "wide color gamut", but how much color do we really need? It appears that the additional color gamut of BT.2020 (like 8K) may be pointless after all - so let's uncover yet another meaningless specification TV makers push on consumers in order to raise prices and drive upgrades.
LINKS
Movies mastered to Rec.2020 Color Space
bit.ly/2wCNAbB
P3 vs BT.2020 Color Space
DCI-P3 bit.ly/2vN39gw
Color Gamuts Compared bit.ly/33RVZo0
Color Gamuts Explained
bit.ly/39mMEp3
bit.ly/3dzf5DV
Color Acuity Research
bit.ly/3dzfHtd
bit.ly/2Jh0xuG
bit.ly/2UiIzOt
bit.ly/33IUng2
www.popsci.com...
www.theatlanti...
visual.ly/blog...
RTINGS ranking tool
bit.ly/2UAm6eH
===
MUSIC Selection in order of appearance: bit.ly/2Tdc4AF
ONE by Barrows and Sun
Lever de la Lune by Lever de La Lune
Eclipse by Out of Flux
===
Products for purchase through Affiliate Links. You can support our channel by buying our recommended TVs and products via our Amazon affiliate links:
BT.2020 Movies:
Lego Batman Movie 4K amzn.to/2UBusTo
Inside Out 4K amzn.to/2JpGvyd
TVs
TCL 6 Series 65 inch: amzn.to/2DqJWBF
Samsung Q90T: amzn.to/2W90dWq
Samsung Q90R: amzn.to/2Y0qOnn
Hisense H9F: amzn.to/2qYteXO
LG C9: amzn.to/2Dln6Ls
Sony A9G: amzn.to/34PsC5u
BLU RAY PLAYERS
PANASONIC UB820: amzn.to/2mM9kgA
Sony X700: amzn.to/2m91IEk
======
TEST DISCS & Movies:
Spears & Munsil Benchmark Blu Ray: amzn.to/2malKhL
Murder on Orient Express: amzn.to/2PFS5th
Pan’s Labyrinth 4K: amzn.to/2VtikUv
Maleficent 4K: amzn.to/2op4LsP
BBC Planet Earth 2: amzn.to/2mcQoqX
BT.2020 Movies:
Lego Batman Movie 4K amzn.to/2UBusTo
Inside Out 4K amzn.to/2JpGvyd
======
HDMI Cables:
Monoprice 18Gbps 4K@60Hz HDR Certified: amzn.to/2zF4Cnm
LICENSED MUSIC:
We use Artlist for a great selection of background music - affordable and royalty free, you can sign up here:bit.ly/2Tdc4AF
=================
About Affiliate Links: #CommissionsEarned some of my links in this video description are affiliate links which means at no extra charge to you, I will make a small commission if you click on them and make a qualifying purchase. Equipment and Materials used for this review can be purchased on Amazon. All TVs and equipment you see reviewed or used in this channel have been purchased without any sponsorship arrangement or compensation by any manufacturers, dealers or retailers. Exceptions to this policy will be clearly stated in the video. We make every effort to back up our conclusions and reviews with demonstrations that clearly show the reasoning behind our opinions.
==
![The Matrix 4K Blu-ray HDR Analysis: 1000+ Nits; Rec.2020 Colours [SPOILERS]](/img/n.gif)
DAMN! Man, honored to have you use our song. Let us know when you need more music for your videos, would love to help you man
Found you guys on ArtList!
you all prolly dont give a damn but does anybody know a tool to get back into an instagram account?
I was dumb lost the account password. I appreciate any help you can offer me
@Bo Caiden Instablaster ;)
@Zayd Layton i really appreciate your reply. I found the site through google and I'm in the hacking process atm.
Seems to take a while so I will get back to you later when my account password hopefully is recovered.
@Zayd Layton It did the trick and I actually got access to my account again. Im so happy!
Thank you so much you saved my account!
I work in film production, in colour science and I can tell you that the gamut of Arri and Red cameras is wide, but so far there are no means to produce content for Rec 2020. Most theatrical production is aimed at P3 and the rest, Rec 709. There is more interest and energy spent on upgrading the tool chains for proper HDR.
Are you as surprised as I am that 99.9% of movies do NOT use BT.2020 color despite consumers paying for more color? I think this is much worse and more insidious than 8K!
Just set color space to native and you are good.
DCI-P3 covers 86.9% of Pointer's Gamut - colors that can be produced by reflected light. BT.2020 covers 99.8%. But, a lot of the additional colors in BT.2020 vs P3 do not occur naturally, but only via computer.
@@JumpRopeLift You'd think animated movies would take advantage of this.
What about 8k for the windows desktop? I'm specifically thinking of the nonstandard sitting close to a screen scenario. Think 4 4k's.
Pointless.
@@MASKOAA I'm not so sure., thats what I'm wondering. I have a feeling if I told people I bought a 40" 4k monitor I'd not get too much push back. So why not a 80" 8k? My apps would certainly be fine in 8k, and it could be used for close in app usage and movies/games (in 4k) from 10 feet. I had the opportunity to use two brands of ~around 80" touchscreens and fell in love. (they were 4k of course) Now I can't afford touch screens, but tvs have become so cheap especially when compared to monitors....
@@billschannel1116 Get whatever you want don't worry about others opinion
@@therealhard8times I don't care about declarative statements of opinion, but rather I was hoping for a gem of reason that broadened the landscape of what I consider. (which is why this channel is my favorite) So specifically here I was hoping to read why it was pointless.
@@billschannel1116 definitely not pointless if you have a PC that can do 8k
I would love to see a conversation between you and Vincent Teoh at HDTVTest
ME TOO. One day I hope to have him on a live chat to talk TVs!
They are both great reviewers!!👍
@hoihoi9866 I don’t understand what you mean by that.
Amazing video, I learned quite a lot from it!
By the way how can I check if a Blu-ray movie that I own is mastered is Rec.709, DCI-P3 or Rec.2020?
It does make sense for gamming since the developers are able to allow you to not only choose the color gamut you want to disolay, as well as the colors range of textures and lighting can be in that wider color gamut.
It also can be changed during runtime.
Even if the content was graded fow a wider color gamut. Theres a good chance folks wouldnt see the difference. Color sensitivity at a certain point starts diminishing dramatically for most folks.
Yes. sRGB is not so far from covering the whole visible gamut, perceptually.
How do video games fit into this topic? Do game creators use the same color space guidelines as movie makers??
Indeed. So many games support HDR these day, but what about the color space?
Try it out yourself. I've tested Doom Eternal on Xbox One X on the 2019 LGSM8600 NanoCell Extended to Wide and it did give more spectrum of color. It's noticeable for sure but nothing groundbreaking.
The video game industry is pretty ready, most "realistic" video-games already use a pipeline that computes lighting in an HDR color space before tonemapping for the final display.
(Since 2004 with Half-Life 2, even though the "HDR" usage is pretty limited compared to what is done nowadays)
But for the wider color gamut I’m not sure.
Future Videogames will be able to use BT2020. It will be funny if games will actually look more true to life than motion pictures.
Excellent point, and an angle I completely neglected. I'll revisit this later in the year when HDMI 2.1 PC graphic cards are released and I can really push the TVs to 4K@120.
@@stopthefomo Current video games already use BT.2020, my PS4 uses this color gamut when playing games in HDR. My TV (LG E9) shows HDR and BT.2020 in the information tab.
@@yasirer you right about that my ps4 pro play game in 2020 in hdr on my this year samsung qled 55inches it look great only on hdr content
Good educational video. However I would suggest that better color space with REC 2020 would not be limited to just green faces, trees and blue skies. There is all kinds of content, some will inevitably use the additional space. And since the TVs have the capability, and the studios have the capability as evident by the handful of examples you cited it's a worthwhile pursuit in my opinion. Don't underestimate the use cases for technological improvements :)
Interesting video! Working in the tech space myself, a lot of this tech implementation is for future proofing. When things are eventually mastered at a higher spec, it will be supported. But 2020 support means that it should (theoretically) support the P3 gamut fully, which is the current standard.
Plus using the TV for your own material, you can confidently display the picture at the spec you want. So I wouldn't say it's pointless, just overmarketed!
I have the LEGO movie 🍿 on repeat! All day
That's why colour volume is important. The brightness can give you a far bigger range of colour available. Also the most famous movies for green palette is the Matrix series
Wow I didn't even know you were back. I legit dind't see any videos being recommended or in my subscription section until today with this video. I looked at your videos and it looks like after you recovered your channel back the views went down drastically. Maybe you should contact the youtube and see what's going on? I Feel like the youtube AI is not making your videos discoverable. maybe it still thinks your channel account is hacked?
I did ask UA-cam, and it responded that even after restoring the channel, it has to reset ALL MY ALGORITHMS as if this was a brand new channel - I basically have to re-earn all my views without the benefit of past videos and my subscriber base!
I had the same thing happen, it took me searching for the channel to start getting it in my feed again. I don't want the bell icon because I don't want it to notify me, I just want it in my subscriptions.
same thing happened to me
I applaud your having the honesty and courage to admit that you - along with many others - incorrectly got on the 2020 hype bandwagon. Thank you.
I'm constantly learning something new - Thanks for sticking with me!
What about video game?
Most important thing... next gen console PS5 and powerful tv... best solution for gaming
@@trumpameri1638 LG C9 or CX is the way to go for gaming in 2020. (Yes I know there's POTENTIAL to get burn-in IF you don't take care of it properly).
@@PSYCHOV3N0M yes i know what u saying... but for gaming is most important thing to have strong panel.. and play without worry about anything.... people who turn on PS5 and play 2,3 hours r maybe ok but real gamers i don't think so....
Capitalism loves to move on from product to product without ever fleshing out any of them. As soon as things get too good and cheap, they have to be killed off. Nearly 100 years since the beginning of the tv and the crt still has a niche unsatisfied by any modern product. 11 ish years since the krp-500m and it's still comparable to modern high end tvs, even better in many ways. Nearly everything is still rec709 and 1080p or lower, we still don't even have that much 4k or hdr content and now they are pushing 8k(and next 16k of course).
And pushing Rec.2020 - charging a little bit more for each of these "upgrades" until it all adds up to a $2,000 TV.
@@stopthefomo Funny how the "mud pie" argument(used to argue against planned economy) comes up in market economy. Thanks for talking sense, respect.
Capitalism is why you even can have these many TVs on the market.
@@TheCaptainhowdy11 No, neither capitalism nor any other mode of production is the reason we have stuff. Labor is. Did capitalism light the first man-made fire? No, a human did that by working. Capitalism(like its predecessor feudalism) is just a rung on the ladder of history, and we have to keep climbing.
How many 4K tv's do they have in N Korea ??
Now i know why you wearing gloves fomo... u knew long time ago that corona virus will show up and u r ready....😁
HA, you caught me!
Great find!
Honestly, I saw the first part of your video comming within 2 minutes.
Not that I claim to be super smart...
Again we all are beeing mislead by TV manufacturers.
:>(
I wonder if under normal circumstances our eyes are capable of seeing the difference between P3 and BT2020....?
You are not mislead more than you allow. It's lack of knowlage that is the issue. And manufactures love to exploit that..
There is quite a big difference between 8bit vs 10bit color (SDR vs HDR standards)
Everything is pointless Lol. 8K wide color gamut etc. I for one I'm working with 8K and is breathtaking.
Are you working on a 6K monitor? I'm waiting for Blackmagic to release their 8K pocket camera but then realized my video editing PC would have to be upgraded too. I'm hoping to capture some 8K detail when I start reviewing and comparing with 8K TVs this year.
@@stopthefomo I'm working with an 8K Dell monitor and an Alienware PC plus I have the Q900RB from Samsung using the HDMI port 2.1 with another Alienware. Most PCs at reasonable price can edit 8K content now. Animating in 8K you need a powerhouse though. RED 8K files play and edit very well with an Alienware PC at around 2500$ USD. I'm eager to watch your 8K reviews in the near future. Thx.
I am an Electronics and comm engineer major and DSP VLSI PHD.
This is good explanation!
Point I wanna add is not everyone watch just movies. PC Gamers and Console Gamers and content creators are also using the TV and now a days almost all the games are natively mastered in BT.2020 cplor space. Windows now support native BT.2020 and Dolby Vision and Davinci resolve latest updates also optimized for native BT.2020 workflows.
And you are right about eyes ROD cells and con cells and sensitivity to different wavelength of EM spectrum.
I don't understand all the technicalities but when setting BT.2020 on my PJ compared to rec709 it looks so much more vibrant and similar colour to my 'reference' OLED tv. Even though reviews and tech say my Epson LS500 only does around 50% of 2020 and more suited to 709. It just looks more washed out and pastel coloured.
What exactly is BT2020 I leave it off on my Xbox series X. Is it for the blacks? Picture or how fast the TV is. What is thr best setting for a G1 oled ?
I still use a 51" plasma tv which to me is still the best in my opinion.No eyestrain,fantastic 3 dimensional like contrast and wonderful smooth motion.When this finally dies hopefully microled will be available and be nearly as good.
Me too, well for my parents at least. They haven't complained one bit about their 2006 Kuro Plasma, still going strong.
Oled is better, believe me. I have 2 Panasonic plasmas and a Panasonic Oled and the picture is better in every category.
@@pietroscarpa2384
Nope. OLED has excess film Judder compared to plasma, and current LG & Samsung OLED Black frame insertion only provides 650p Motion resolution with a 5ms persistence. Some plasma's could actually achieve 1080p motion, with a 2ms persistence. A CRT by comparison has 1ms persistence, meaning, Zero motion blur.
OLED's glaring weakness is obviously motion, especially 'base' motion. Too much blur and only 300p motion resolution, it's pretty much trash imo. Gaming at 120fps, & using max Black frame insertion for SDR Movies/TV is the ticket, but neither are perfect but they do wonders compared to gaming at 60fps and 'not' using BFI for streaming.
My Panasonic S60 plasma doesn't have the greatest motion either mind you and is considered to have average plasma motion, with it's motion persistence and motion resolution being in the same ball park as the LG C1's MotionPro 'High', but again, far less judder on plasma, no 'out of box' black crushing and NO severe BFI shadow detail crushing or noticeable flicker on whites unlike the C1...
A Samsung S95C/S90C QD-OLED with it's black crush corrected & BFI shadow detail crushing eliminated from a professional calibration will be the next TV i get. I doubt Samsung has increased BFI motion beyond 650, nor will the persistence improve, because most people who buy TV's dont seem to give a flying squirrel about motion. As long as it's eye exploding bright and thin as paper.
@Fido Dido how about Panasonic Oled tv's? On HDTV test, they did a comparison with plasma, and the results were the same like plasma.
@@pietroscarpa2384
Panasonic OLED is only available in Europe & JPN unless I'm mistaken. Either way, I do remember Vincent mentioning in his review(can't remember which model) that it's BFI resolved 1080p motion resolution, just like LG's CX(although it's brightness was clobbered down to like 70 nits at best which is pretty bad) Not sure how many nits the panny has left when using it's BFI though OR what the motion persistence is.
Even if it could resolve 2ms persistence @ 1080p motion, there's still excess film judder. And that's really the ONLY redeemable quality of plasma Vs a QD-OLED with lets say amazing BFI that could pull off what the
panasonic OLED is doing.
Would the WIDE option on color gamut for Lg OLED enable BT2020 vs auto? If the source content is mastered in PS3, why does it change and look more saturated when set to WIDE? is that some kind of internal algorithm?
Rec.2020 is absolutely necessary if the source content is recorded in that color space. Forcing Rec.2020 in settings is stupid... leave it in auto. It's a color space that exists for a reason, and your TV should auto adjust to it when it is needed, ONLY when it is needed. It is a much broader and superior color space that is rarely used outside of BBC Nature videos like Planet Earth II and others, or actual Dolby Vision demos, but it is outstanding. Soon more and more content will be mastered in Rec.2020 and you will see its benefits more often. For now, having the capability is a good thing, so you're ready for it when it starts to pour in.
The point of having an 8k TV is you still see more details compared to 4k and under, even if the media is 4k and under... That's the same jump from 1k to 4k... 4 Pixel will show more and sharper details compared to 2 Pixel. That's why PC gamers use Downsampling/Supersampling method to better the graphics and textures or using Smooth Video Project with MadVR to upscale video content (videos and streams). The more pixel you use the better the quality and details - no matter if pre-processing, post-processing or native pixel. Your eye just have to be able to see it (eye-sharpness) like everyone sees colors different. It's the same like a glass wearer don't see stars at night, but when wearing glasses they can see there are hundreds of stars...
What's the point ?
If you provide your own home movie 6K 8K etc
For one's own viewing perfection. Doesn't have to be from a dvd or movie house.
Commented half way through so forgive if I missed something.
Agree and not. Dolby format expend color space to device color space. But I love movies not because of color space, I don't care. The story is more important, even comfortable place/couch more preferred than wider space. Some minnor color shifts not a problem - only marketing.
So, basically using bt.2020 on dci-p3 mastered movies should have 0 affect, since dci-p3 lays within bt.2020. However, if the source actually is bt.2020, you’ll get more color. So there wouldn’t be any harm using bt.2020 when seeing content in dci-pi3.
However, I’ve noticed some movies do look a little bit different when switching between dci-p3 and bt.2020. For example, colors look more natural in bt.2020 from Disneyplus on Enchanto. Whereas DCI-p3 has more saturated colors.
As for video games, most video games that use HDR implement bt.2020 and DCI-P3 shouldn’t be used when playing video games in HDR. You’ll notice a massive shift in color when using bt.2020 vs dci-p3.
For example, Spider-Man looks more realistic in bt.2020 on PS5, and Anakins lightsaber in Battlefront 2 has a more natural blue. The green grass in Forza Horizon 5 has a more natural red green, and a less candy green, in bt.2020.
In Microsoft Flight Simulator, bt.2020 allows us to see a more sky blue color, while dci-p3 has a more saturated blue.
I would say always use bt.2020 if your TV has a high percentage coverage of the this color space. Watching movies in bt.2020 shouldn’t have too much of a difference, colors will shift ever so slightly if it’s in dci-p3. Since video games mostly are mastered in bt.2020, if it’s HDR, you’ll get the full range of colors that the developers worked on
Might get more detailed visuals in future Shrek and Incredible Hulk scenes. Piccolo can show details in more shades of green and we might notice. Grinch?
How is it then, that when i switch between DCI-P3 and BT2020 Color gamut in my TV settings, the colors change significantly?
This happens regardless of what source or type of content I watch, be it a PS5 game, Netflix or UA-cam..
Explain that to me?
You realize why all TV's are always left in Native color gamut as manufacturer default setting?
Because it provides the widest possible color space obtainable with the TV, it will literally show every color it can possibly produce, at the expensive of accuracy.
I believe it's the case, that regardless of the mastering (signal/source) the TV itself can increase the width of the color gamut, simply by choosing BT2020 or Native gamut.
But it will not be true to the source.
You can take an SDR BT.709 signal and on-the-fly convert it into HDR and wide color gamut, which I do on a daily basis.
Is it so far-fetched to believe you can change DCI-p3 into BT2020?
Isn't there some ultra geek who can shed some light on this, please reply 😜
In the future BT2100 (same primaries rec2020) will encompass the "ideal" Pointer's gamut.
hi mr fomo, when i looked at the codecs on my 2160p movies on vlc, it shows rec2020 (and bt709 on 1080p) is that just the settings made by the uploader? i admit, i just download movies on torrent sites and i cant buy 4k discs and players. here in the philippines, that's how we do it. 95% filipinos doesn't bother buying 4k discs/players.
@8:36 I read that The Batman Lego movie and Inside Out were graded using AcesCG which led to their nice wide color gamut.
Having an excess capacity helps to future proof. If they devise a 'fold-in' and 'expansion' algorithm (ala Dolby, MQA) or decide to start mastering into the larger volume available you don't have to swap out.
Currently useless but POTENTIALLY beneficial.
Wishful thinking? I have a 2015 high end Samsung that I can’t even get Disney+ on!! By the time there is any improvement in colour mastering, they’ll probably make it compatible with brand new TVs only!!!! Just look at how Samsung has downgraded its 4K range to try and persuade people to buy 8K this year.
@@ipodimusprime3368 Buy the most advanced , reasonably priced, products and stay content for as long as possible. I look at 8K and laugh. When I was younger my vision could be adjusted (I wear glasses) to 20/12, 20/10. Even then I would not be able to differentiate between 4K and 8K at any reasonable distance, one that would allow me to see most of the screen easily.
Our TV's are capable of displaying all the current content that's available in the consumer market. DCI-p3 has significantly higher color volume than rec 709. As someone who calibrates TV's we aim for 75% rec 2020 targets, which is almost the same as p3. The most significant improvement in current TV's is the combination of WCG and HDR.
what color space does samsungs native color space use? i’m guessing it’s DCI or AdobeRGB, i got sony tv and 709 is just to washed out for games which is why i always used native on smaung tvs, now the sony has auto DCI and RGB, DCI looks closer to samungs native but on the sony it has yellow whites yet samung doeisnt? makes no sense, sony tvs pretty much just force auto color space on everything or you need $600 collaboration equipment
If lack of content were a valid reason not to get a better TV we'd still be using black and white tube TV's.
We should be pushing for higher frame-rates there's significant benefit to going beyond 24fps motion quality at low frame-rates is absolute garbage.
Rubbish
Been using motion interpolation for awhile, cranked up to max settings, and I gotten used to it, whenever I switch back to 24fps I really notice the lag. I noticing artifacts here and there, but it's a necessary sacrifice.
Gemini Man at 120Hz in the theater LOOKED fucking amazing.
Sorry but i don't enjoy soap opera effect on movies. They are supposed to look cinematic.
Very informative video and something that I have know to be the case for a while b/c of my video production background. Now, when it comes to games, they can be mastered differently. The Windows HDR mode standard does allow for BT. 2020 so I wonder if the difference is more visible in this medium with some titles that have a decent HDR implementation. This would be a great comparison to do actually :)
Me a Man of culture, We need Shrek Films in BT 2020
Another crazy idea i was just thinking when you said movies are mastered in P3 not rec2020, i bet an AI chip built into the TV could on the fly transform the P3 image into rec 2020. Thats how those sorts of AI work they imagine data that was not there in the first place.. infact this upscaling software i have for single images called gigapixel AI, can turn a JPG into a TIFF with a wider color gamut. It guesses what might be there and puts it in, convincingly because its been trained on good high resolution source data like raw images.
8k is worthless because there is no noticeable difference without putting your face on the screen
This video made my brain explode. Wonderful.
Here's my question: The fact that bt2020 allows to capture more shades of green could represent the reason for which movie studios are not going to use this in the future? I mean, the "green issue" could be a problem with all the massive green screen usage? I was thinking that maybe shooting a film with green screen through a source color space that is so so sensitive to green shades could be a problem. Just a curiosity, I'm not even sure that these two aspects (green screen scenes and the color space used in the source) are linked... Thank you anyway, great job!
Firstly, glad your back. Secondly, this is one of the best Fomo on tech episodes. Saw it from start till end, makes total sense. Great Job.
Hey thanks for sitting through the end!
So it means we need rec 2020 monitors to grade on -> produce rec 2020 mastered content -> upload to a rec 2020 supported platform-> consume on a rec 2020 TV. It has to start with the monitor. That said, I’ve seen videos edited in rec 2020 on UA-cam shown with the HDR tag (e.g. Links TV’s hdr content), since there doesn’t exist a rec 2020 monitor, it’s not really rec 2020? (And does UA-cam support rec 2020 as a platform?)
Agreed. The cinema standard for DCPs is DCI-P3, yet my TV needs Rec 2020?
Most video editing software doesn't support rec.2020. Davinci Resolve just added this to 16.2, so it is coming, just not very fast.
Thank you for that info. This MAKES IT EVEN WORSE. One of the most popular color grading software can't even render in 2020 and we've been buying 2020 capable TVs for years now.
Premiere Pro has been supporting BT2020 editing for a long time afaik
I am curious how this topic relates to the quality of smart pad and smart phone screens? When not in front of my living room TV, I watch a lot of content on my old iPad Air or on my iPhone X.
I watched this on both of those, especially pausing on the very green examples, and could not see a difference. But that raised the question whether this meant Both screens use current technology, or if the UA-cam content itself is being streamed in P3 or BT.2020 or any other gamut better than what an older iPad Air screen can handle.
Lets hope WICKED is in Wide Colour Gamut ;)
I am getting the old 3D feeling from when all manufacturers said: *"You need this NAOW!"*
Do you have an update of this info now in 2024?
Very informative video. Thank you! But if I am not wrong the Technicolor movies, no matter how old they were, did have enough color information to cover the Rec 2020 specification. They were however too expensive and eventually substituted by cheaper and faster chemical processes. Funny to think that we might soon be seen colors no one ever saw in pretty old movies; a range of colors that we will be unable to see in more recent films, no matter how modern our TVs are. In any case, apart from any truth, there is a ton of marketing in the whole thing, as your presentation made clear.
I think the point is future proofing. Manufacturers will make capable technology before its completely in use by an industry. 2020 is the direction and when films are produced in 2020 it will be important to have a TV that can properly display it.
Question... How come your glasses don't have lenses?
If you want a new movie for testing, The Call of the Wild seems to have been mastered in BT.2020 (and native 4K). A lot of green in that movie. :)
Hi. So I just watched this one today. Yes, I understand that movies at least up until the time of this video have been presented in P3.
But, has this changed in 2021 and going forward ? With competing streaming channels like Netflix, Paramount+, Disney+, HBO Max, etc all producing new content, what’s the latest word on adoption of the wider color gamut?
Also the wider the gamut the more bits you need - for bt2020 you really need 12bit panels... bit is the number of colors within the given color spectrum, that number remains the same no matter if you are in bt2020 or rec709, so if you have more colors to cover over a wider gamut but your tv is only capable of 8 bit there will be more banding - it is like stretching pixels.
more bit = more colors / more gamut = more colors but they are not mutually exclusive.
So you say that if my TV it's only 8 bit and I play games content on HDR in bt 2020 (the nowadays HDR games are mastered in bt2020) I will have color banding?. It's better to have color space to auto instead of native for Samsung for example since native it's dcp3 color gamut instead of the 709 that Auto option use in my 8 bit TV?, will this get rid of banding?.
@@ADISTOD3MUS If your TV is an 8-bit panel and you're attempting to display content that is mastered in a wider color gamut like BT.2020, you may indeed experience some color banding. This is because the TV's 8-bit panel is limited in the number of colors it can display, and the wider color gamut extends beyond this range. When the TV tries to map these excess colors, it can result in visible banding, where smooth gradients in the image become chunky steps of color change.
As for setting your color space to 'auto' or 'native' on your Samsung TV, it could potentially help. By default, the 'Auto' setting should adjust the color space to match the source. If your content is mastered in Rec.709, setting the TV to 'Auto' should align with that and could reduce banding since the source and the display are using the same color gamut. On the other hand, if you select 'Native', the TV will try to utilize its full color capabilities regardless of the source. On a Samsung TV, 'Native' typically represents the DCI-P3 color gamut, which is wider than Rec.709 but not as wide as BT.2020.
However, color banding is not only dependent on color gamut but also depends on the bit depth of the content, the processing capability of your TV, and even the quality of the content itself. It's also important to note that while adjusting the color space may help to mitigate banding, it may not completely eliminate it, especially if you're viewing HDR content that's mastered for a 10-bit or 12-bit panel on an 8-bit TV.
Ultimately, the best setting can often be a matter of personal preference, so I would recommend trying both 'Auto' and 'Native' to see which one looks better to your eyes.
can't stop looking at your teeth.
So the scenes that take advantage of it are fairly rare, but even if movies were mastered in it how noticeable is it in those scenes? If it's like the 4k versus 8k test and very hard to tell the difference it's still not going to matter compared to something like contrast. The contrast difference between OLED and LCD is easily noticeable in almost any scene, and scenes that really take advantage of it are fairly common.
I got lots of blurays and every time i watch Lost it just blows up my mind in therms of colors and details there is no other film ever produced with such a skin tones and deep deep colors. Lost is just 1080p but simply stands above anything no matter what resolution or whatever they're using.
Most movie theaters use 2k resolution, which is slightly better than 1080p.
Question Fomo; now that HDMI 2.1 tvs are becoming the standard (for sure by 2021), when do you think we will get 12 bit panels? DV is mastered in 12 bits so it would be awesome to finally see DV in it's full capacity.
You are kidding right? Firstly, 10bit panels are only just breaking into the market. (Most TVs are 8bit + FRC).
Second, HDMI 2.2 is slowly being added to TVs this year.
We have a very long wait for 12bit
Roger Halt just breaking in? Might want to do your homework before commenting. I had the Samsung ks8000 back in 2016 and that was a 10bit panel. I have a 2017 Oled and it’s a 10bit panel. The higher end tvs have had 10 bit panels since at least 2016 hence my question about 12 bit panels. Ive never heard of hdmi 2.2, you must mean hdmi 2.1
12 bit should be important if you have thundera eye. Kkk
I run 2 4k monitors and I can definitely notice a difference having 2 vs 1. My 8k source is a computer! I find the same argument over and over, if you are not running your tv from a computer than yes 8 k will do you no good. But if you are a computer guy, you can't have enough K, lol
Yeah, you have Superman's super vision over the rest of us mortals.
Excellent point
I believe this color-space, along with 8K, is the same conundrum as almost all of new technology. Think about when 4K TV's came out, people said "That's a waste of money, there's not even 4K content for your expensive TV". That statement was true, however if nobody buys 4K TVs then what point is there in companies upgrading to release 4K content? Someone has to go first, either the manufacturers or the content providers and it usually has to be the manufactures. To put into context, back in the day when UA-cam was only 1080p, why on Earth would someone buy a new 4K camera that cost a lot of money (at the time) and spend more time encoding and editing the video (much larger file size) if nobody could watch it in 4K anyways? It wasn't until 4K displays started coming out (TV's) that UA-cam started offering 4K video and then content creators started making 4K videos. "Someone has to go first, either the manufacturers or the content providers and it usually has to be the manufactures." No company wants to throw money away at another HD DVD vs BluRay so it's best to wait and see where people's money is going.
Another example, USB-C was finalized in 2014 and it still took three years before a major phone manufacturer like Samsung used it in the Galaxy S8. USB-C was expensive to manufacture (it's gotten cheaper but today it's still relatively expensive). If you bought a computer with USB-C along with USB-C chargers and USB-C cables what would be the point if you can't connect a USB-C device? It wasn't untill the last year or two that laptop manufacturers started adding the port across their product lines. Computer and phone manufacturers are reluctant to spend money on new technology that people can't use and accessory producers are reluctant to make devices and adapters people have nothing to use them on.
Although I hate Apple for many reasons, this is one thing they do well... They force adoption of new tech regardless of the backlash. Remember when the 30pin changed to Lightning? People were mad that all of their current accessories were, for the most part, useless and had to be replaced. But because they had a large and loyal user-base people still bought the new phone en masse and soon after release it went from a handful of accessories to every-thing changing over rapidly until, generally speaking, no-one produced 30pin products anymore because only a small group of people still used them.
I agree in the sense that I personally don't buy products that I can't fully utilize, such as that 2020 color gamut. I didn't buy my first 4K TV till 2016 when there was enough content being released and streamed in 4K... However, there's no reason for the movie industry to use the newer color gamut on home release products if there isn't a market for it. So for the time being, TV manufacturers are going to keep improving on their tech to stay competitive and eventually content will follow to support it once the market, decides which features it cares about and adopts with their purchase.
Obviously there are caveats, as there are large consortiums that band together to make changes together to move the market in a certain direction, think of HDMI and how it became the standard defacto connection for pretty much all consumer products that send or receive an audio+video signal. It didn't take years for this to happen, the HDMI standard and digital TV's were hand-in-hand, although in the transition period they still had S-Video, Composite, Components, etc. so consumers could still connect their existing equipment but eventually and new devices came to market and everyone started upgrading that at this point in time, younger individuals don't even know what S-Video is because it essentially is useless now and has died out.
I'm of course not saying that manufacturers don't peddle bullshite specs and features to try and lure consumers into buying their products, I just feel that this newer color gamut is merely at the early-adopter tax phase and once it starts becoming a 'standard' feature then the movie industry/movie distribution companies may start to release content using the wider color space. Movies however are a special industry in which the content creators generally dictate the direction based on their style and vision; However as new tools become available we see them start to utilize new capabilities in their art-form. As such I believe 8K along with BT.2020 will eventually become the 'standard' eventually but it will take a bunch of rich early adopters to advance manufacturing to normal consumer prices until we see wide adoption of the new tech in people's homes and industry to take advantage of it.
Welcome back btw... I love your videos and I'm glad to see you're still making them! Looks like I need to re-smash that subscribe and get caught up on the last two months of videos ^_^
Great points. I for one wouldn't mind Netflix requiring BT.2020 grading.
@@stopthefomo Gratci Signor, I too hope that they start utilizing the new color space. Streaming services are a great place to start since consumers don't need extra hardware.
I sincerely appreciate you taking to time to read my comment. (Even though there are a number of grammatical errors and a couple of butchered sentences at the end lol) Although I didn't intend for it, it reads a little 'preachy'... Lord knows I'm not one to stand at a podium lol... Keep up the great work.
I still say that, 4K is useless without HDR. HDR is really is what makes a difference between 1080p and 4K. We still have very little content in 4K. The masses are dumb and TV manufacturers know that, that's why when 8K comes out, they will shift you to 16K and you will have dopes claiming they can tell the difference on their 55 inch sets from 10 feet away.
@@jkairi4 lenscrafters.com
I hate when people say this
Just like how some people said back when 1080p was becoming a thing
HDR does make a good difference
But guess what a 4K HDR TV will beat out a 1080P HDR TV
The extra details in resolution allows the HDR to look better due to better and smoother gradations of the color space used at 10 bit vs 8 bit
Superb video! Really enjoyed and Learned a lot. My view on colour gamuts has really changed. What colour gamuts do PS4 Pro games use?
Definitely depends on the developer. Email the game developer company and I'm sure they'll respond. But remember, just because it's in a BT2020 container does not mean they actually use BT2020 color, so be specific when asking if they are actually utilizing BT2020 color, not just the container to hold RGB color space.
Yep cheers!
This is why I went with the LG G3 instead of the S95C. I get a brighter screen with Dolby Vision while having less Rec2020 coverage than the Samsung but my UHD discs wouldn't take advantage of the wider color gamut anyway.
one thing i've learned recently is that we actually see a LOT of ultraviolet color. i've bought my first anti-UV lenses and the world looks a lot more "dead" through it. more greenish. missing colors, specially purple hues. it honestly looks like these lenses has a mild built-in "piss filter" on them. BUT! that's only on sunlight, or incandescent sources. they literally make no indoors at night. our artificial light sources pretty much don't emit UV anymore. since it's the red cone that majorly detects UV, followed by the blue cone, we could just fake those colors with straight purple on screens. but do we? i don't know...
The tyranny of the DEFAULT. The hdr10 "default" will hold back display for a long time. Dolby will live in my heart.
It's probably more the manufacturing companies that are to blame as we need 12 bit panels to see it. Studios won't give us proper BT2020 until they implement it for TV's. Brightness is always improving so the 4000 to 10000 nit mastering is slowly getting there that we can see
the matrix is very green too
You just blew my mind off my shoulders with this video!!! Awesome
Just a silly idea here, probably totally pointless but when you said tvs need to some how have an improved filter to get the rec 2020 colors, it made me think of those Encroma glasses that color blind people wear and i wondered if TV manufacturers could sell special glasses that have the filter in them so you see better colors on your tv?
I just want to see the hubble image of Andromeda on an 8k oled.
Andromeda what exactly? You're not talking about Mass Effect Andromeda are you? That game on PC supports Dolby Vision.
Me thinks my man is talking about the actual galaxy
Whatever the hardware manufacturers and content creators need to do to get all of the human skin tones right is much more important to me than getting additional shades of green and blue.
Bit of a necropost. The Matrix was filmed in the bt2020 color space. the 4K Blu-ray reaches this according to vincent theo from HDTV test /watch?v=QiyWm2wlOf4
The reason we are sensitive to Greens is we needed to see predators in the wild, to help distinguish from natural camouflage.
Fargo season 2.
Makes me wonder when people are watching HDR movoes on certain brand tv like samaung for example If the color space is set at BT2020 cause I recently changed mine to DCip3 custom color space instead and the colors looked way better not so dull and blah and this was before I even saw this video and learned this
For 8k if you sit closer like for gaming then it will be noticeable. 8k tv's really should all be for gaming since that's where it matters and they should be curved. What would be the issue with having a standard that goes from UV to the IR? We can see tiny amounts of UV and IR, correct? Perhaps cameras could capture UV and IR and display them as violet or red with dithering/shimmering/rainbow noise or some other noise variant added to aesthetically signify their presence to match the scene.
Does this mean it will display less P3 Colors? Since the gamut will be divided by the same quantity ? BT2020 divided by a billion vs P3/rec709 divided by a billion.
taking into account that the color space also has a dark-light dimension, is there a benefit between Rec2020 and P3 on that dimension for HDR content? (this would probably apply for all colours, not just those outside P3 - those greens, light blues, red and magenta that are outside P3 in the 2D rendition of the colour space)
HDR content was designed with the Rec2020 color space in mind. P3 is more like this transition color space we are in right now, that was designed for movie theaters and brought to the home, but not originally intended for HDR.
I disagree with your statement about 8K TVs being pointless for this reason, TVs aren't just for standard television sources anymore. So in one way your statement is correct, to JUST play reruns, or current TV programing, or Blu-ray or even UHD sources, an 8k panel is "overkill" . . . But I can easily buy an 8k+ camera!! What better way to show your hi-res "Travel Log" photos and vids than on an 8k panel? Perhaps this is not your average TV viewer, but, if in the end, there is little difference in production cost and/or electronic performance, why wouldn't the manufacturers make 8K panels? Most drivers can't use 500bhp automobiles . . . Like your BT.2020 spec, some of it is just part of human nature. (More is better. ;-)
On the TCL 6 series. What is Native and Auto color space. Cause while watching cable tv Auto looks more vibrant and brighter while Native looks more dull yet more natural but while watching on Netflix/Prime/YT 4k/DV/HDR Native looks more vibrant and brighter like it's the opposite so I've just went back to Native color space setting what the TV comes defaulted too.
@Stop the FOMO
the same is with 4k movies... There are not many movies who where filmed in real 4k! ! ! Most movies where upscaled to 4k, or transformed from "Analog" 33mm to 4k ! The same was with 3D ! So many movies jumped on the train with Avatar in 3d, but nobody reached the quality with filmed in true 3d ! But as always ... most people don´t understand, that we life in a fake world : )
Putting DCI-P3 content into a BT.2020 container technically makes it worse because you are then wasting bits on colors that are never displayed. However, wider gamut TVs are not totally pointless, particularly if you connect a computer to them. There are also those weirdos who like to distort their content so that it covers a wider incorrect gamut. And you can be sure that in 2 or 3 years, they'll be selling us the same movies we've already bought remastered in BT.2020.
The reason why colourists master films in P3 as opposed to Rec 2020 is because there are no mastering monitors capable of displaying Rec 2020. Its not that studios 'can't be bothered', its just that if they cinematographers/colorists were to use Rec 2020 primaries, they woundn't be able to see exactly what they're doing. So I think its unfair to portray them as short-changing consumers.
As to the point about not being able to see colors beyond P3 if the source is mastered to P3, thats not entirely correct either. You can (mis)calibrate your display oversaturate the primaries. Yes, this will not reflect the director's intent, but perhaps you'll prefer the richer colour (much like how some people like the extra clarity from turning on motion interpolation).
Finally, I take your point that there is diminishing returns, but I think reaching Rec 2020 will have a much larger impact than say 8k. In other words, I think if you were to do a blind test between a scene graded to P3 vs the same scene graded to Rec 2020, most people would be able to tell the difference. The same cannot be said for 4k vs 8k.
N.B. Planet Earth II is in Rec 2020 - see Vincent Teoh's video.
Great debunking ! Movies are all about skin tones since earliest movies. No matter your colors in the movie if your skin tones are right the movie feels right ! Of course outside of ET's,zombies or sick people or director's particular choice. That's just the way our brain works. The huge advantage we can see for BT2020 is in nature documentaries involving forests, all this shades of greens... Some could point to all sports involving grass :p. Also in movie theaters most projectors are only P3 and not BT2020, funny as even home theater manufacturers are pushing BT2020.
There are tons of movies that could benefit from bt 2020 extra green. They... are called... FOOTBALL ⚽ :)
Make a video about the pointlessness of mastering HDR 4K Blu-rays at 4000-10,000nits! By the time TV's can actually display those levels, 4K Blu-rays will be as obsolete as DVD's.
I was under the impression 35 mm movies had a colour gamut wider than P3? Closer to BT2020?
It’s a chicken and egg problem, without technology advancement, content creators will not create better high definition/wider colour content . It’s the same argument few years ago with 4k, why buy a 4k tv without 4k content, but why create 4k content without 4k TV? Advancement is advancement , you pave the road so that someone will take advantage of it in the future.
Spocko, thank you. Good to get the unvarnished truth. I'm going to stay happy with my new C1 for at least a few more years. Wake me up when micro led becomes affordable.
Yeah buts that's no reason to not support it. That's like saying HD TVs should never have been made since there was never HD content available in the old days. But overall though I really enjoyed watching this video this is very informative.
Perfect explanation. I was looking for this information for a few years even Rtings don't gives this information. Thanks
4k is useless without a $1,200 gpu and there's almost no tv content and limited movies. 8K might as well be laserdisc....
Thats a same problem as with audio 20 years ago. Whole industry is specialized to some standard and no one (wide public) care.
You guys talking about bt 2020, and I'm still at hd color space rec709. And yet it looks great. Midsummer (2019) would look stunning at bt 2020
@FULL HD bit funny your name is full hd despite your resolution haha
There is an substantial difference between 8 bit and 10 bit panels... Buying a 8 bit panel 4k tv is pointless , might as well stick with a 1080p tv lol
What about 8bit+frc?, It's not that suppose to actually upscale 8bit to 10 bit correctly?.
I have a friend who fucking LOVES the Lego Movies and watches them all the time, so if anything, this will convince her to get a WCG television, lol
i wanna bet real money.. this dudes glasses has no lenses. and it tripped me out the entire video why is lenses wont reflect any light back ... :D some body please agree with me ....
What about Samsung demos? Looks like they burn your eyes. Rec2020?