What's The Lowest Niacin Dose That Impacts NAD?
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- Опубліковано 26 бер 2024
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good question , well answered
You're probably aware of this, but - went back to a talk by Vincenzo Sorrentino on trigonelline (ARDD channel about 4 months ago) - he presented data to show that Trig and nicotinic acid acted by Preiss-Handler pathway. And showed that Trig did not work on salvage pathway (same for nicotinic acid I think). Nicotinamide, or NR/NMN, by contrast, acted on the salvage pathway. The trig dose in mice used to show effects on NAD+ was 300 mg/kg (human equivalent ??)
Yep, thanks @peterz53, I'm familiar. 50mg of trigonelline/d may seem inconsequential in comparison with the mouse dose (human equivalent = 1.5 - 1.6g/d), but it's unknown what the lower limit is for trigonelline to impact NAD.
When considering that trigonelline isn't yet available via supplement, I'm trying to go as high as possible via diet, to see if there's an effect.
@@conqueragingordietrying1797 hi new visitor to your channel. Very good objective format with illustrations!
Have you ever done anything on methylation? Specfically higher dose Niacin(500mg) TMG and lower dose b complex to balance
FYI, I used your affiliate link to do the NAD testing, and after a month their powder increased my NAD from 30 to 80.
Nice on the increase Sven-did you measure other biomarkers on the same day, to see if the NAD increase had a net positive impact on the others?
How long did it take ? Just 1 month to increase?
I was really hoping Trigonelline would have high impact on NAD tbf. Thank you for testing it out. Also, why not try eating high doses of Trigonelline sources and see if that would have change on the NAD levels? Is it because you do not wanna change the general integrity of your diet ?
It sill might-we'll see how the largest trigonelline dose yet (125mg/d) turns out
I suppose I could go a lot higher for trigonelline-containing foods (chickpeas, for example), but that would push out other foods, and I'm not trying to blow up the approach (and all the other mostly youthful biomarker data) at the expense of NAD...
Why not take inositolhexanicotinate? It’s niacin attached to inositol. You can take even high doses like 600mg without any flushing. I haven’t tested NAD+ levels but I bet you can get them through the roof with that
why is the flushing considered a problem? Does it cause broken blood vessels/is it a sign of inflammation and therefore indicates it isn't helpful at all, once you are flushing? I'm not sure if I understand if it's a problem to flush or not.
Hi, i found nicotinamide acid cheaply on my market, do you think i should use it and adjust the dosage similarly to niacin dosage? In my market, both niacin and NMN are expensive.
Btw, I'm new subscriber here, really like your presentation style so far.
Thanks @alejndraalmirowitsch4897. I'd recommend NAD testing, as that will help address dosage, and whether nicotinic acid is better than nicotinamide in your case (or not)
Generally, Nicotinamide is less favourable than niacin due to where it sits in the NAD cycle, as it may inhibit other processes being downstream of nad. That doesn't mean it's necessarily bad for you in low doses, testing should resolve if high doses are doing anything unwanted.
I have experimented with different dosages and find that a low dose of 35mg every 3-4 hours spread out through the day, up to 4 times a day, I feel the best, just my own experience, 70kg 5"9 male.
Me too!
Great video! Thanks so much. I was wondering what you think of the product by Renue by Science "NAD⁺ Complete - NAD⁺, NMN, & NR (Liposomal)"? It provides 250mg NMN, 190mg NAD+ and 160mg NR.
Is there any reason you decided on using NMN over NAD+ or NR?
Thanks @gedr7664. Nicotinic acid, not NMN or NR, and cost, as it's far cheaper, and increases NAD at far lower doses
@@conqueragingordietrying1797 Thank you! I will try Niacin :).
I've seen those liposomal supplements as well. Some published data on NAD levels helpful. If the liposomal formulations are as effective as claimed you'll need to be careful.
@@jamesgilmore8192 why would i need to be careful?
Have you try Nicotinamide aside of NIcotinic acid? I heard that it's the form of B3 that most freely enter and exit cells, so I wonder if it would be more effective of NA.
I've used NMN, so nicotinamide levels would likely increase as it's nicotinamide-derived
I haven't specifically tried nicotinamide, but that's been shown to raise homocysteine more than nicotinic acid, so I'm wary
@@conqueragingordietrying1797 Thank you for your response!
It still would be interesting to see if there are is a maximum amount of Nicotinamide that can be added to the supplementation without triggering a raise of Homocysteine.
Have you previously tried nicotinamide? Is there a video i can watch?
That you know of, are there studies that have researched the optimal amount of nicotinamide?
Thank you!
I would try NMN, I use RenueByScience's SLC NMN which is enteric coated for better absorption and fairly affordable.
i already used NMN, up to 2g/d, those videos are in the NAD playlist
A far lower dose (60 mg/d) for nicotinic acid raises NAD when compared with NMN (> 300 mg/d)
Just looking at the July 5 2023 and the current round data, I think for future tests it would be recommended to supplement one dose consistently to let the pathway equilibrate. There seems to be no response in 3 to 7 days to increased NA. From the data we can infer that (minimally) 27mg/day + trig has no response, and 60mg/day increases NAD. The NA dose response is somewhere in between. You might try NA 50mg/day for the entire period and see what happens next.
With the lowest dose experiment, it's tricky because there may be a correlation between not taking it and worse sleep quality.
I agree about 50 vs 60 mg/d
Are you only taking Nicotimic Acid increase HRV on workout days? Or Triggonelli + Nicotimic Acid only on workout days to increase HRV?
Nicotinic acid + methyl-B12 on workout days, yes. Niacin intake is significantly correlated with a higher HRV and lower RHR after adjusting for body weight in my data
Trigonelline every day via diet
@@conqueragingordietrying1797 Interesting! Do you take the nicotinic acid just before the workout, or the opposite, after the workout, or both?
how does fenugreek seeds compare to clover seeds in respecvt to trigonellin amounts?
That's tough to say, because published data for fenugreek seeds varies from as little as 1 to 90 mg trigonelline/g
@@conqueragingordietrying1797 ok
Mike -- did you ever establish the dose for when the flush occurred? I assume you aren't experiencing a flush on these low doses. Ironically, I get a flush as the dose increases from 12.5 to 25mg.
Hi James, I haven't done a dose-response on the flush, but very little (if any) on < 60 mg/d for me
Big-time flush at 600mg/d, though
Interesting how much smaller doses = flushing for you...
@@conqueragingordietrying1797 Does a big time flush mean you have to sit down to deal with it? That's what happens to me.
What happens if you take TMG Trimethylglycine 500mg 3 times per day whilst taking nicotinic acid?
Taking 4g/d TMG didn't impact my homocysteine. Maybe it's different for others, though.
What BMI have you found correlated for you with the best biomarkers?
Current BMI, 22...
@@conqueragingordietrying1797 That's surprising that a lower BMI (20, 21?) correlated with worse biomarkers?
Have you explored methylation in regards to health and life span? 30% of the population are under-methylators via MTHFR and 10% over-methylators. This dramatically effects metabolomics. Creatine is an example of a compound that needs to be methylated. Your methylation status will effect whether creatine works for you or not. Over-methylators make their own creatine to saturation hence supplementing is ineffective. Methylation and Acetylation affects histones in DNA.
I happen to be an Under-methylator and utilize various strategies to methylate more effectively.
Search out histone methylation and methylation metabolism.
Have a great health span.
Yes, I regularly send blood for epigenetic analysis, that info is in the "epigenetics" playlist
Also homocysteine measures at every blood test (7x/year)
Red clover has a potent phyto estrogenic compound
Total Testosterone in January was 971, so if there are estrogenic effects, I have plenty of leeway
@@conqueragingordietrying1797 Formononetin and Biochanin A are the estrogenic compounds in Red clover I believe
surely, and that's why soy is useful against excess estrogenic activities - it blocks the actual estrogen and regulates the receptors. The phyto-estrogens are much weaker in affinity to receptors compared to actual estrogen - so these molecules tend to hang out near the estrogen receptors and block the actual estrogen. While the estrogen in women's body fall too low, phyto-estrogen, although it is much weaker than estrogen, it can substitute some estrogenic signaling then but it tends to control the signaling in excess of estrogen, it stands in the way of much stronger estrogen then - so you get perfect regulation. There is more to it by regulating receptor expression etc. but that's the gist of it.
I am still amazed people have not learned this already. Listening to pseudo-carni-keto guys online is so much easier for them.
Isn't niacin bad for blood vessels? And associated with strokes and heart attacks?
Generally not. Generally the opposite. JUst eat healthy, so you don't have the over-activation of enzymes that methylate (by NNMT) and then oxidize (by aldehyde oxidase) the remnants of niacin.
Bad food leads to turning niacin to harmful substances and in population it largely applies to turning the niacin in meat products (which are quite high in niacin) into 4PY and thats one of pathway from hundreds of why you get more vascular problems with meat-heavy diets - because there is niacin but no protection and modification of pathways by phytonutrients. This is amplified with sedentary lifestyle and excess of calories (meats acts similar to refined plant products - its energy-dense) - so, with little physical activity and energy-sensing hormones (like AMPK) not acitvated, the niacinamide gets diverted to NNMT, instead of recycling by NAMPT (partly activated by AMPK monitoring low-energy states and sport and many phytonutrients).
Small genetic components added to that.
In support of that hypothesis, please post some papers...
www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/how-excess-niacin-may-promote-cardiovascular-disease#:~:text=A%20metabolite%20of%20niacin%20(vitamin,effects%20of%20too%20much%20niacin.
why not just take 100mg and call it a day 💀 I don't even think most pills have consistent amounts
I prefer greater specificity than that, but if it works for you, go for it!
@@conqueragingordietrying1797 and you managed to find consistent pills to adhere to that?
The video subject of the lowest dose that impact ((niacin))
does not much with the content 💔
Finding the lowest dose that can do no harm is a part of the story, sorry that you didn't derive value from it.
@@conqueragingordietrying1797 please try (niacin) instead of NA or NR or NMN
i take an ultra-cheap time-released (-> prevents the annoying flush) niacin supplement 125mg in the morning and get about the same energy and endurance boost as with 300mg NMN. NMN seems to be waay overhyped compared to just niacin. took me a while to figure that out..
It likely depends on the extra steps in the pathway that niacin progresses through. If you have blocks in the pathway NMN is probably better. Assuming that increasing NAD is useful in the first place.
Slow release niacin is bad for the liver
@@Childofthebong Yes, you need to watch the liver biomarkers and if they go up or stay high, you'd have your answer for that niacin dose
@@Childofthebong Not in the amount of 125mg I am sure. Starting from 1000mg and up I'd say.
There are unverified claims, that you can counter that with betaine.
Love your videos! But brother you must feel like a pin cushion with all those tests! We appreciate you though for taking those jabs for science.
Thanks @Hail2MasterChief. Ha, I'm only a pin cushion every 6-8 weeks...Some people test a lot more than me!
@@conqueragingordietrying1797 great point, and your contributions to the science of anti-aging is immense, keep pushing!
oof
How so? Ha, unfortunately science has to go through many L's to get to the W's
that's deep bro no cap, on a stack😔✊@@conqueragingordietrying1797