Yea, thats right, but she shares their problem that anything that has a gap closer sends you into the afterlife without any problem, especially since her only defense takes to long to stun. Even if you bubble a zed/akali/katharina etc., they kill you most of the time before the sleep sets in
Honestly Zoe would be a good poke mage if that damage was consistent since her main damage tool works better from a distance if you have minions in your base or someone close as hell in your face you can’t properly burst them if they are super close to you unless you use a sum spell or active
Same could be said about xerath When for some reason his combo does 1k to you And then you just look up that he is playing support of all roles... And has only ludens completed
I dreamt I was playing ARAM last night as Zoe, throwing a paddle star into where I thought pantheon was, I was flinging it from base basically is how far off screen I was. If I hit I one shot. I knew I would. Naturally, I land it JUST BEHIND THE FUCKER. can’t hit qs even in my dreams 😭
better give poor poor KATARINA her 5 movement speed back, and maybe give her permanent doubled damage for each of the kills she gets, so she can finally deal decent damage… -.-
Poke Champs are dying not because of meta shifts but it’s because new champions have 86 gap closers and perma cc and sustain which makes their whole kit of long range damage effectively useless. They just can’t keep up with the new champions and items due to mobility creep being a huge problem.
Just play sylas mid everygame. Play it like you normally do and pretend you actually have game knowledge and apply basic macro once you see and opening just mash your keyboard... Oh they didnt die? Just dash away and go back in once your cooldowns are up. Oh 8 seconds have passed guess you have W again they jusy wasted all their abilities on you and summs just go back in and mash your keyboard again. After all W is a point and click ability unlike any other offensive sustain abilities.
@@pingkrek1539 Yeah but way lower CD's; Sona can keep you constantly shielded, healed, given MS steroids and with sup items also give you near-constant AS and on-hit/AP - Seraphine can occasionally shield you with a small MS steriod and heal you if her passive allows roughly once every 20 seconds unless she builds a shit-ton of CDR which gimps her damage. Sona is a buff-bot while Seraphine is a mage with a single strong utility on a long cooldown, how are we even comparing the two?
@@Neion8 1.why did you necro a three month old thread 2.i assume you haven't seen the massive amount of shielding, healing, and movement speed seraphine gives with her w lategame if you're referring to it as a "small steroid" it's almost half of sona's kit wrapped into a single skill it better be on a 20 second cooldown or she would be more broken than yuumi 3.you describe sona's kit like she does all of that at once which she can't because she actually has to cycle her heal/shield and ms and seraphine can do all that with a single press of a button 4.her auras require her to be within melee range of her allies to apply her buffs while seraphine has double the range of her aura 5.even after her rework she still has the lowest 'raw numbers' out of all the enchanter supports so my point still stands but you're right actually, the two shouldn't be compared
@@sascher7461 I normally go for AD Varus so that I can build Collector and thus easily one-shot/KS 😂 But AP Varus is also very good. IK of players who climbed in Ranked with AP Varus Mid 🤯
@@boldisordorin9010 Compared to other burst mages though her burst is pretty mediocre unless she gets VERY far ahead. I'd honestly consider her more of an artillery mage due to her long range, low cooldown attacks.
@@LyionOfRoses people think she's an enchanter cause people play her what way but she doesn't really synergize with enchanter items the most. Build her full AP and (at least late game) you destroy teamfights
all mages are forced into bot and mid because of how overpowered both assassins and sustain are in this game right now. the game 100% needs to be looked at, only anivia is still relevant and that's because melees literally cannot dodge her q
Every single game has a Zed, Akali, Kha’Zix, Talon, Leblanc, Rengar, Evelynn or Katarina in it, as soon as they pick one of those champs you are as good as doomed, even while not fed a Kha’Zix or a Rengar will delete you before you can react or even hit them back.
@@neveahphillips5610 you see the issue is that even while behind they have pressure for some reason. a malzahar whos behind is a CC bot and nothing else, his only good thing is his ult since his damage is kinda negligible. A xerath whos behind is kinda useless too, he doesnt deal that much damage and can be exploded just like that. Same with velkoz. Same with Ziggs. Same with literally every poke mage. But for some reasons assassins are allowed to onetap the ADC even while being behind, because thats their design or something, idk.
Hot take: You know how Aatrox has build in Vamp only on champs? Make that everything. Remove or seriously nerf sustain from minions. The windshitters able to heal to full on three minions is absurd
I think the best take on the healing problem is 1. Mega nerf the healing effect on minion and jungler monster; 2. Make healing a "unique" effect so u can only buy 1 healing item. I'm sick of every time I have to face a Shieldbow+BotRK+Hydra Irelia
@@kelzhikaru Yes, this man speaks the Truth. We are close to a point were buying Life steal Is Better than going tank, every class Is shotting towards sustain or damage, both with high mobility, and this Is even After the mobility Nerf.
@@garrett1433 When you throw Q try to make sure you ALWAYS hit the enemy and the creeps it increases your efficiency which is sorely needed pre lvl 6. If you're having a hard time poking the bot lane don't be afraid to use satchel to guarantee comet since its almost impossible to react to. I always go flash tp getting the mana tome item is huge for staying consistent in lane. Any other specific questions let me know.
I love artillery mages and I'm so sad that the new yordel will no longer be a artillery mage Man we got our last real artillery mage in 2014 when it was that year when vel'koz was released Sad
Back in season 8, When Xerath, Velkoz, Lux, considered a hard matchup on midlane. Right now Literall all the midlaners which are slayers comes 3 or more dashes, sustain, Most of them doesn't even require mana or iq above room tempeture to play.
Kinda sad we have only like a few counters to CC those dashes up. But yeah we need more Anti-Dash and CC Suppression abilities to prevent any dashes or maybe escapes.
@@gunlyte4661 please stop the cap are you actually FOR more cc like supressions?? This person actually thinks we habe too little cc in the game. As if mal ult wasnt tilting enough XDXDXD
i think that mobility creep is a huge problem, but i think instead of adding more cc they should just try removing some of the problematic mobility. i feel like we'll have a whole new CC creep issue if that happens.
As a xerath main I find annoying that assasins, tanks and bruisers can be op for whole seasons but we cant have more than 2 patches of having a "strong" poke champ in the meta.
To be fair strong poke champions are amongst the most annoying un-interactive games you can have. "Oh yay, I got shot from the other side of the screen with no way to retaliate for the 10th time this minute, I wonder what I should do." Poke champions should be strong enough to threaten engage champions and punish them if they do not engage quickly and properly, but never stronger than that. It's just that how it is right now is plain unfair and even more frustrating than strong poke champions.
@@hungrymusicwolf You say that like there aren't assassins who's kits allow them to 100-0 you while spending over half of the fight being unattackable... The real problem artillery mages face is with range creep; Vel'koz E is 800 units, so that'll be the lower end for artillery mage range, here's a quick list of melee champs that either share or have longer ranges than that: Akali, Amumu, Blitzcrank, Braum, Camille, Cho'gath (this one feels roughest as his Q is basically the same ability as Vel'koz E, so why give the melee champ 150 more range?), Diana, Dr Mundo, Ekko, Evelynn, Fiora, Fizz, Galio, Gragas, Gwen, Hecarim, Illaoi, Irellia... you get the point - why the fuck would you play an artillery mage, when you can get similar if not greater range from the abilities from melee champs - let alone ranged champs - without having to sacrifice survivability, mobility and kill pressure? Poke champions is a misnomer, because almost everyone can poke, it's just 'poke' champions have that as their thing because they're bad at everything else.
"It wouldn't be a good design to let someone attack you from a full screen away with no way to dodge it" I remembered about Senna and held my laughter down a bit
about the shielding/healing theme, does riot realise that having a shield AND lifesteal makes you WAY harder to kill? i know it sounds like something really obvious, but when you have both, your effective health increase by a lot, because your shield gives you time to heal up with your lifesteal. this becomes really obnoxious when a lot of meta champs run conqueror + triumph, champs like yasuo, yone, sett and now ashkan all have a shield and easy access to healing + shields thanks to shieldbow, goredrinker, bloodthirster and sterak's gage.
This one really hit home... when you said (and im para-phrasing) "you don't need macro if the enemy is dead" a part of me died. i mean i already knew this but.. to hear it said on this channel just confirms i have a codependent relationship with league lol. i love ADs like jinx and APs like ziggs. both destroy towers but if your team cares more about diving their squishies then you'll get squished by the enemy divers. it doesn't feel like a co-op game of chess as much as a 5x5 1v1's. which it should never be mostly one or the other but c'mon man... this is why "the meta" refers to which champs get the most kills. not strategies. you don't have to think about what the enemy is thinking about if you don't even have to use your brain to one shot their carry. i'll never play meta. i'll play my way and maybe- just maybe- i'll have fun, too.
like to be fair dude there are masters otp for every champion, so if ya cant get high elo on a champion that you like it isnt because of the meta. There is a soraka mid otp that is grandmasters rn, hint thats not meta, so unless you are high elo I don't quite understand. It might take more time to figure out how to play w/e champ you like if there arent as many resources, but with replays and op.gg the play style should be optimizable
Trying to otp sona Just losing all my hp bar from Darius running with ghost and using 2 autos and ult Then there is Camille, her Q works with Divine sunderer I beg for a nerf of this bullshit, 600 true dmg with 3 sec CD Meanwhile Sett has a very long cooldown that makes it fair on his W nuke 1k true damage against a Sona And with that champ u don't always have the luxury to buy a zhonya
I really hate this meta where if you play any kind of mage or ADC, you're useless because you get engaged on from three screens away by manaless champions with 5 dashes and then they heal to full HP.
@@TwistedTeaFate that's untrue, maybe in gold 2, but in the game as a whole, if they have 3 dashes and run directly to you backline they're being burst down by your entire team
If you're dumb enough to get hit by the whole kit then you should get bursted. Literally all it takes to counter them is one resistance item and they cant do anything.
I kinda like the idea of trying to be a strategist but it is so unfullfilling when your team ints so it feels pointless learning any champ that takes effort when you can 1v9 as yone and win games without breaking a sweat and feel badass even tho it gets boring...
i honestly think that had more to do with the fact that she's supposed to have mobility counter(s?) in her kit; imagine xerath, but aside from being 1.5 screens away he also denies assassins, and even if they make it through the gauntlet, he'd still have zhonya's + the enemy team. just doesn't seem very healthy
@@voidjelly better then current meta of hard engage, being a poke mage you have almost no counter play against it, the only options you have are:1. Not be there and starve with the enemy with 50 C's lead; 2. Poke them down heavily to deter them(they still might dive you); 3. Take one or all down with you( which is hard to do if they are sylas, yone, tank, etc.).
@@charly7937 honestly the issue isn't the items or anything It's that 1 specific skilless combo in assassins Zed E + Q with shadows and R mark(*slow* then one shot) Talon W(*slow*) Q R aa ignite Katarina no cc surprisingly but she has no skill shots as an assassin... E W Q R E Rioooot why is the only counter zhonya(to zed that is,does nothing to qiyana and talon with low cds,kata who resets cds on your teammates and other crap with assassins) Slayers aren't mentioned as that class needs huge item reworks unlike assassins In other words remove AD life steal Sylas just needs number tweaks(25-50% ap healing instead of like iirc 45-90%)
Back then we had some interesting team comps like poke, speed(kled, quinn, sivir , zilean/ karma/ janna, hecarim, shurelya's reverie etc.) or push(yorick, heimerdinger, and multiple zz'rots.) Now it's all based on damage or how many dashes/ stealth/ hard ccs they have in their team, which is really boring.
That's because they took some rather simple, easy items and fucked them all up and made em impossible to balance. Then, they called it item diversity when you see 4 shieldbows in every game.
I main poke champs (Ziggs and Velkoz) but I'm forced to go support because mid is now infested by dashing Ionian champs. Really hurts that you just wanna farm but suddenly the Ionian assassin dashes onto you and you could barely escape :(
For real, the best part of your channel is that you make an actual critique of game instead of just saying "but this is high skill, so shouldve broken" and its amzing, good work!
Yeah, because mages having to hit 10 spells dealing less damage than a Zed barely hitting anything and point-and-click bursting you is perfectly balanced 🤡🤡🤡
@@Raiko01 You dont even know hard it is to remember your shadow placement , target , which enemy can cc you . these poke mages arent doing anything highly mechanical they just poke thats all
Rn I think healing and sustain is the root cause of a lot of the problems rn. The insane burst damage and the uselessness of poke are all a result of healing being so problematic.
Deleting/Reworking Conqueror would help. I see champions like Katarina heal themselves like an Aatrox without having any life steal or omnivamp in their items. Ravenous Hunter and Taste of Blood are something for sure, but i feel like Conqueror is way more problematic. It causes a lot of snowball in top lane too.
@@Vestiligium they already did lol conqueror healing is cosmetic at this point, i've had 50 min games where i only healed about 2k from it while not even behind. and then i notice taste of blood healed more somehow
@@Vestiligium I don't understand why conqueror even heals tbh. Remove the healing from it and I think the game would get a lot better. I also think they should remove ravenous hunter, it doesn't even make sense for the domination tree anyway. Maybe switch nimbus cloak and taste of blood around too
@@voidjelly Its not just the healing, remember it ramps your damage and give you healing. Notice that a lot of the problematic champs are all using conqueror or going electrocute and taking ravenous hunter.
13:31 No, they wouldn't be broken. If they have to hit nearly all of their kit's skillshots to get a kill, it's fair. High potential damage in exchange for it being avoidable.
also, in xeraths case, stuns are really shit due to how tenacity works. Displacements and knockups are much more apreciated in this day and age. Xerath's E can stun as low as 0.4 seconds. Thats almost less than the cast time
Man, I remember when Riot said "Vex" was going to be an artillery mage... I was soooo excited, but then they change her to a normal mage... I'm still sad but at the end of the day I will buy her because I like mages. Also, poke champions are a dying class because of new champions having so much mobility, the new Itens give even more mobility (like mvs and dashes) and they also give a consistent Healing against poke.
Thanks to the mobility and damage creep of the assasins pokemages can no longer be played in midlane and all they can do is euther play apc and bully the poor enemy botlane or play support and bully the poor enemy botlane And i am not happ about it
Really good video. I think the current moment is the best posible to talk about how poke is dying since Riot has deliberately gave up on releasing an Artillery mage as the next champion. For next topic, you could talk about Wardens who are also a dying archetype because they are too strong on proplay.
"If the enemy team is dead, none of that matters" Pain. All that matters in this game is which champion can unbothered run you down and destroy you. As someone who finds far more enjoyment in methodical wins than team deathmatch, it's just so hallow.
There is too much mobility being added and this kills the immobile pokers additionally with the higher damage we have nowadays the fights last shorter and make the pokers even worse.
After 5+ years of playing SMITE, another MOBA type game, I decided to finally try out LoL towards the end of Season 10. Being able to scale up and deal massive magic damage from a distance with the Artillery Mages, like Ra and Thoth, was my favorite playstyle for years and I was excited to try out characters like Xerath and Vel'koz. From my limited experience with LoL, Vars really nails it on the head with the "Death is the best CC" mindset and how all the extra healing, shields, and mobility make it ALOT harder for poke mages to function in this game. And to top it all off, I was excited to see the newest poke mage come out this season and possibly make the sub class stronger... until they announced they're changing her to be a standard mage. I've really tried to make the 3 artillery mages work, but it honestly doesn't feel like I can pick "whoever I want, simply because I like them."
glad i found this channel to throw salt on our open infected wounds, i would like to add Riot decided to change Vex, new Yordle mage midlaner from an artillery mage to a "traditional" one. thus her release got delayed and Akshan came out sooner. reason : meta isn't in favor. *they know it but they don't change it* that hurts man
I main Xerath mid and support and to me it feels that there are too many assassins that just kill you without giving even a chance to flash outa range which is why I take Xer as a support since I don’t need too worry as much about that (I use my adc as an Agro sponge lol)
@@charly7937 funny enough ev isn’t too bad IMO since they always charm first which gives me a warning and Noc…well let’s pretend we don’t know he exist because Jesus Christ Noc mid was so annoying
I wanna see a poke champ who bounce their abilties off walls made by players or natural terrian and maybe they can make a wall themselves to bounce it to a low hp enemy last second
"Dealing damage in the neutral". It's good to find your channel again, I didn't remember you liked using fighting game terminology to explain League. I'm glad you made a video on my favorite class in the whole game. Hopefully, the new items can help with survivability and beating shields.
My absolute favourite playstyle, i feel this is a very accurate video. I would have added Zyra to the poke champion rooster, but aside from that thi is an excellent analysis, as always.
I used to play a lot of vel support, there was one day, i can remember it very good, ive landed 3 skillshots just to see the enemy yuumi pressing e a single time to heal it all back up. This day i completely quit playing these type if champs. I was husteling, sweatting and trying so hard to land my skillshots thru the minions wave at the moving adc, only to see her doing legit nothing but pressing a single button.
@@thelastsepheramain6867 that's not how game balancing works. they're not gonna let a champ be overpowered just because they weren't strong for a long time. remember udyr, at the beginning of S11? he was very strong, which is surprising for a champion that outdated. they nerfed him immediately, repeatedly, pretty hard. he's still fine in my opinion. but that's exactly the same concept. they're not going to let a champion terrorize the game just because they haven't for a long time. the exception being, of course, the newer releases. and lee sin.
Heroes of the Storm is a different game for sure, but the artillery-est of poke mages in that game-Chromie-plays like a dream. I think that game’s bigger focus on objectives kinda fosters that, though.
when you have 1 flash .. and your opponent has 4 ... can traverse a series of walls for no reason.... can gapclose with an in frame... its not really a question.
@@andyentity3034 it's about the fact mobility in general is the most overpowered thing In league, and the consistent power creep of new champs that makes older characters not feel good to play. Honestly they should just remove half the roster at this point because they are obsolete and aren't a good intro to the game anymore.
I dunno man.. Vel is my fav sup simply because i love seeing my enemies bleed slowly but surely..if they are forced to recall this gives my adc better cs than the enemy adc..and i also just love Ez with me as adc as we rain skillshot upon them
Nice video, I recently found xerath as an amazing support, he is really fun to play, especially if you have good aim. I agree on like every point you said, sadly poke mages don't get much attention in the current meta. I tried xerath mid a few times but just got stomped by high dmg assassins and many new or favourited champs... Off-Topic: Also I hope they give some old champs something like audio reworks or skins with various reworks, some skins of outdated champs don't match with their audios at all... Anyone who is reading this, have a nice day and good luck on your elo climb :D
That's a topic I thought about at some point and I can atribute poke champions' decline to four main factors. 1- Baron Nashor's rework Two of artillery mage's biggest strenghts are both sieging and defending a siege. When Baron Nashor got reworked, its buff both replaces and counters these strenghts from mages. It counter mages because they can no longer instaclear minion waves and stall games forever (which by the way, is a good thing). At the same time, it replaces mages, because you no longer need them to siege. 2- Mobility creep As you've stated, poke damage consists of skillshots. However, with how much mobility there is in the game, dodging skillshots have never been easier. More mobility also means it is easier to engage. 3- Easily accessible sustain Again, that's a point you've made. The game has so much sustain poke damage has became no more than an inconvenience. That's the reason that, for example, Pantheon no longer make sense in the top lane. He isn't as good of a duelist as traditional fighters and compensates from being able to poke them from a distance, but Doran's Shield/Second Wind is so oppressive that poke is no longer a factor there. That's also the reason we no longer see mages top lane like Lissandra anymore. And of course, by the mid game, most champions can heal off all poke damage from minion waves. 4- Mid lane is no longer the optimal role for mages Mages were most commonly seen in mid lane on the past for two reasons: first, it is the short lane, therefore, safer for the immobile champion to go. Second, as spellcasters, they scale with levels, so they get the most value out of experience. While the second point still holds true, the first does not. Mid lane is no longer safe because mid lane isn't about sitting in lane farming for half of the game anymore (which is a good thing). The mid lane is more dynamic, you are expected to rotate (which, I repeat, is a good thing) and the moment you do, you don't have a short way to safety. The mages who are still mid laners are either those who excel at rotations (Twisted Fate, Aurelion Sol), are direct counters to popular picks (Lissandra, Malzahar) or have some sort of self peel that allows them to continue playing the old way (Vladimir, Ryze). Even champions who in the past were considered well rounded, meta transcendent such as Orianna are on a very weak state nowdays. In the present, the mages that don't meet the conditions above make more sense in the bot lane, either as the carry or not. As a carry, laning with another champion provides the safety mid laner no longer do, or as a support, when can dedicate all their resources to supress the enemy carry's growth. However, there they also face a problem. As a support, their build path is far more expensive than the competition. As a carry, its even worse: Riot deliberately and blatantly favors marksmen, their competition, to the point they get targeted even when marksmen are already the dominant force. Most recently, Ziggs received nerfs no more than 2 patches after he became viable. A year ago, Syndra received 3 consecutive nerfs despite having half a percent play rate and Cassiopeia, who was overpowered across both roles, haven't received a nerf, but rather, an base armor nerf and base magic resistance buff, just to keep her out of bot lane. Its not even mages who suffer from that favoritism either. Marksmen themselves, upon finding new builds for different playstyles receive nerfs or rebalancing attempting to force them into the same playstyle all other marksmen already do. Varus is the more prominant example of that, but Jhin, Ashe and Miss Fortune also got similar treatment at one point or the other for going comet, lethality or both for a poke heavy playstyle. The end result is that champions with potential for poke playstyles get that playstyle suppressed (Doran's Shield+Second Wind in top lane, enforcing cookie cutter scaling right click champions in bot lane) and dedicated poke champions such as artillery mages are being balanced for a lane they no longer make sense and away from the lane they do make sense.
Burst like Lux ? Excuse me but she has one of the lowest scalings in the game. Xerath has almost double her stats and velkoz does true damage. She is only good because everybody simping for her (including me).
@@mooglemage6456 100% is abysmal low thats almost as much as some champions base skills like xerath and velkoz. Neeko has 130% and damage reduction. Yes she can Spam her ult kind of but no she does not scale well one engage and you are toast.
Repeat with me: *Zoe is a PROPER artillery mage by every definition* Good? Good EDIT: No, poke meta is not worse than tank meta. Poke meta at least takes skill.
True, the thing is that her damage is a little to high for what this class is supposed to be. In every other aspect she's straight up an artillery mage, especially if it comes to her lack of defense against any engage. (480k mastery Zoe onetrick btw XD)
True, but his damage is still quite lower, especially when it comes to bursting a champ in one swipe, Zoe has the upper hand. And with the tank-meta you're absolutely right, in poke-meta you have to earn the kill, in tank-meta you just click the enemy and hope that your champ lives longer
"Poke champions have a tendency to lack satisfying or flexible gameplay" Meanwhile you have Karma pressing Q and R on CD on laning phase while being able to shield allies and root enemies.
i mean servers are up, but there is no longer updates because it's not popular enough. As a results only veterans are here and it becomes harder to start now but feel free to try it anyway
It makes me sad that poke mages dont get as much love as the rest of the classes. Vel'koz is my favorite champion bar none but as time goes on and more champs get released it just feels like I am able to contribute less and less to actually winning the game.
This is why I love Viktor's E so much. It's a great poke tool and you can aim it as you are walking away. Combine an upgraded E with a full build, and Viktor gets very scary to play against.
I kind of count Sivir and Varus as poke champs (Mainly from Build but their abilities do quite the distance) even though the ones you presented are Artillery Mages.
Two Huge things I think you forgot to mention is: 1. How Baron works now vs in the early days. Minions take very little damage from magic with baron buff. Back in the day, you could clear them anyway, but now you can't. 2. Is rift herald. You can't poke it away... There's nothing you can do to stop it, and you can't exactly walk up to it and auto it from behind.
As someone who only really played LoL for a bit here and there it was kind of interesting how mages and especially poke mages are in such a situation. Because in the Moba I have played much more named Smite I found mages to be very popular. While there is not that many "proper" artillery mages (Agni, Toth, maybe Kukulkan and Ra.) there is quite a few characters that are built around medium distance poking.
The tradeoff for having long range is present even in battle cats, where some of the longest range units are the most fragile, the slowest, and are supseptible to hard pushers, tanky units, speedy units, or enemy long range carries killing them.
I think you were a little off the mark on this one, i've been maining Xerath and Ziggs for a long time now and i've been playing league since 2010. Xerath does really good burst damage and can easily, EASILY one shot an ADC when he's even remotely fed, artillery mages are weak to high damage gap closers and funnily enough, tanks. They're highly limited by their cool-downs and if an enemy can survive their burst, its quite difficult to deal with them. It can be impossible to deal with a Mundo for example. Mobility creep is one of the biggest counters to artillery mages as well, the game is so much more mobile now and that has a couple of knock up effects. First, it enables assassins, slayers ect to get on top of you (Kayn is horrible for this) and kill you, second, it enables more dodging of skill shots. If I don't hit my skills as Ziggs or Xerath, i'm completely dead weight. It can be completely impossible to hit a lot of champions at longer range once they're dodging and even close range. Ziggs is awful for this, Q has a really bad hitbox. Most of the time, artillery mages will lose the game at champ select, because the enemy team will pick someone you cannot deal with. I've had Xerath games where i'm full build at 30 mins and can oneshot the entire enemy team and I cannot carry because i'm able to be killed by a 2 item Shaco. You need to be 10x better than your opponents if they happen to have a good counter pick and even then, a single mistake will wipe you out. The reason they don't see much play at top level is because they are too higher risk for the reward they bring, its like playing a "protect the kog" team, only your glass cannon can't have life-steal and his damage is completely dodge-able.
The next champ slated to be released (Vex, the Gloomy Mage) was originally being developed as a poke/artillery mage but her release date was pushed back so they could rework her into more of a burst mage. I wonder why? 😯
as a previous xerath main, you put EVERYTHING into the late game, taking tear and harvest, and if you play it right you can one shot any squishy champion. but getting the ball rolling is pretty difficult
Good video but i think it lacks 2 elements. 1st Is how bad artillery mages are in the competitive scene to a point where the most played one in pro play is AP Kog (wich i found odd you dont mention in the video) . 2nd is how RIOT completly stopped the concept of poke tanks , Mundo used to be known for this and Maokai E was a decent poke tool untill it got nerfed to the ground and is basicly useless unless buffed from a bush
Ngl kinda feels like anything that's not a slayer or assassin is a "dying class"
true af
I disagree tbh, I think mages are just as viable
Absolutely not
"Slayer or assasin" is like saying fruit or orange
@@1kozar Hey, swain still kicks ass and bruisers are still as annoying as ever.
Poke is a cute way to call Zoe slinging a semi truck across 2 screens away OK
Yea, thats right, but she shares their problem that anything that has a gap closer sends you into the afterlife without any problem, especially since her only defense takes to long to stun. Even if you bubble a zed/akali/katharina etc., they kill you most of the time before the sleep sets in
Honestly Zoe would be a good poke mage if that damage was consistent since her main damage tool works better from a distance if you have minions in your base or someone close as hell in your face you can’t properly burst them if they are super close to you unless you use a sum spell or active
Same could be said about xerath When for some reason his combo does 1k to you And then you just look up that he is playing support of all roles...
And has only ludens completed
I dreamt I was playing ARAM last night as Zoe, throwing a paddle star into where I thought pantheon was, I was flinging it from base basically is how far off screen I was. If I hit I one shot. I knew I would. Naturally, I land it JUST BEHIND THE FUCKER. can’t hit qs even in my dreams 😭
It's less poke and more punch spiked brass knuckles
As a good friend of mine said
"Killing is the best CC"
Minute stun
exactly its a blind, root, suppress, silence, stun, knock up, polymorph, sleep, and the most important of all: tilted
Is he a brand main?
@@helptheresacockroachinmyba1939 probably a pyke enthusiast.
"The only hard cc you will need is murder"
Damn, better nerf Aurelion Sol.
better give poor poor KATARINA her 5 movement speed back, and maybe give her permanent doubled damage for each of the kills she gets, so she can finally deal decent damage…
-.-
@@grrumakemeangry She’s still a monster
I almost spilled my coffee damn😂
Poke Champs are dying not because of meta shifts but it’s because new champions have 86 gap closers and perma cc and sustain which makes their whole kit of long range damage effectively useless. They just can’t keep up with the new champions and items due to mobility creep being a huge problem.
This. Exactly this. There is no use poking if the enemy can heal back up easily and force you off of cs at the same time
@@phoenixflamegames1 It requires a ridiculous amount of positioning knowledge and macro to pull off poke mages these days, more than it’s worth tbh.
Just play sylas mid everygame. Play it like you normally do and pretend you actually have game knowledge and apply basic macro once you see and opening just mash your keyboard...
Oh they didnt die? Just dash away and go back in once your cooldowns are up. Oh 8 seconds have passed guess you have W again they jusy wasted all their abilities on you and summs just go back in and mash your keyboard again. After all W is a point and click ability unlike any other offensive sustain abilities.
Oh and you can also play him top and jungle too
Technically that caused meta shifts. You're right though.
5:03 he said all 7 cause yasuo and yone are the same champ
Lmao it’s like listing the 3DS and the 2DS as two separate items: one’s just the better version of the other. Same goes for Sona and Seraphine.
@@jcnot9712 sona and seraphine play differently. sona is way more supportive than seraphine that is why u dont see her nearly as much
@@N12015 wtf do u mean 'raw numbers' she has one of the lowest ap ratios on her skills when you compare it to other supports
@@pingkrek1539 Yeah but way lower CD's; Sona can keep you constantly shielded, healed, given MS steroids and with sup items also give you near-constant AS and on-hit/AP - Seraphine can occasionally shield you with a small MS steriod and heal you if her passive allows roughly once every 20 seconds unless she builds a shit-ton of CDR which gimps her damage. Sona is a buff-bot while Seraphine is a mage with a single strong utility on a long cooldown, how are we even comparing the two?
@@Neion8
1.why did you necro a three month old thread
2.i assume you haven't seen the massive amount of shielding, healing, and movement speed seraphine gives with her w lategame if you're referring to it as a "small steroid"
it's almost half of sona's kit wrapped into a single skill
it better be on a 20 second cooldown or she would be more broken than yuumi
3.you describe sona's kit like she does all of that at once
which she can't because she actually has to cycle her heal/shield and ms
and seraphine can do all that with a single press of a button
4.her auras require her to be within melee range of her allies to apply her buffs
while seraphine has double the range of her aura
5.even after her rework she still has the lowest 'raw numbers' out of all the enchanter supports so my point still stands
but you're right actually, the two shouldn't be compared
Me in Summoner's Rift with Varus: Oh no, Samira/Tristana/Kaisa/Jinx is going to kill me
Me in ARAM with Varus: BOW BEFORE ME, YE MORTALS!!!
In ARAM i never build AD Kaisa, AP Kaisa W can snipe people with double Varus range, and yes, AP Kaisa is literally poke mage 🤣
@@shurlkr3594 Even I believe in ARAM AP Kaisa Supremacy 👊🏽
@@shurlkr3594 You should also try AP Varus. As soon as you have 2-3 Items you almost oneshot everyone
@@sascher7461 I normally go for AD Varus so that I can build Collector and thus easily one-shot/KS 😂
But AP Varus is also very good. IK of players who climbed in Ranked with AP Varus Mid 🤯
@@sascher7461 You mean Algebraically Attempted Varus
As a Vel'Koz main, this hurt me....so I should *use my sadness to oneshot the enemy botlane, u know... support things*
As an Adc main, ah yes... I do believe my sadness cup hasn't been filled up today yet.
As a ziggs main i am also hurt
Xerath main here, yep were reduced to support roles now.
Ah, yes. The role where we do whatever the hell we desire and hope to not get x9 reported.
Source: Support main.
Bronze sup xerath her.
I am regularly carrying my games idk how it is high elo, but in low elo people don't respect the mages
Every poke type mage (Atleast most of them) Are now played as APCs (Seraphine, Ziggs, etc) or Sups (Xerath, Zyra, etc)
Seraphine is not a poke champ she is a burst mage
@@boldisordorin9010 I mean Seraph is an enchanter that has long ranged abilities more so then a true damage dealer
It shows how shitty the mid meta is
@@boldisordorin9010 Compared to other burst mages though her burst is pretty mediocre unless she gets VERY far ahead. I'd honestly consider her more of an artillery mage due to her long range, low cooldown attacks.
@@LyionOfRoses people think she's an enchanter cause people play her what way but she doesn't really synergize with enchanter items the most. Build her full AP and (at least late game) you destroy teamfights
Yone isn't harrassing, he's pokengaging.
Like E to poke and oh my bad you got killed by true damage when I disengaged for free
Also because lifesteal procs on his Q, Yone is sustaipokengagin you mean
Fun fact yone is balanced
@@_tevans_2003 yeah lmao I complain every second cuz I know Vars is on my side anyway but when I play him I get destroyed until I get a quadra
@@carnivorze1052 and disrupting with a aoe knock up
So with 1 ability, Yone is disrupytanksustaipokengagin *in AoE*
all mages are forced into bot and mid because of how overpowered both assassins and sustain are in this game right now. the game 100% needs to be looked at, only anivia is still relevant and that's because melees literally cannot dodge her q
Every single game has a Zed, Akali, Kha’Zix, Talon, Leblanc, Rengar, Evelynn or Katarina in it, as soon as they pick one of those champs you are as good as doomed, even while not fed a Kha’Zix or a Rengar will delete you before you can react or even hit them back.
@@neveahphillips5610 assassin rengar isnt pretty good rn tho
@@neveahphillips5610 you see the issue is that even while behind they have pressure for some reason.
a malzahar whos behind is a CC bot and nothing else, his only good thing is his ult since his damage is kinda negligible. A xerath whos behind is kinda useless too, he doesnt deal that much damage and can be exploded just like that. Same with velkoz. Same with Ziggs. Same with literally every poke mage.
But for some reasons assassins are allowed to onetap the ADC even while being behind, because thats their design or something, idk.
They should make it so anivia's q does less stun at close range like xerath e because she is op
@@neveahphillips5610 did you play rengar after the item rework mate? He is very shit.
Hot take: You know how Aatrox has build in Vamp only on champs? Make that everything. Remove or seriously nerf sustain from minions. The windshitters able to heal to full on three minions is absurd
i agree it’s really annoying however that healing comes from an item not base healing, not to mention the difference in class
Funny how a champion with healing gimmick get out heal buy a blade girl with a vamp scepter :)
I think the best take on the healing problem is 1. Mega nerf the healing effect on minion and jungler monster; 2. Make healing a "unique" effect so u can only buy 1 healing item. I'm sick of every time I have to face a Shieldbow+BotRK+Hydra Irelia
@@kelzhikaru
Yes, this man speaks the Truth.
We are close to a point were buying Life steal Is Better than going tank, every class Is shotting towards sustain or damage, both with high mobility, and this Is even After the mobility Nerf.
@@kelzhikaru nah
Just put a hardcap on life steal and omnivamp from *Items*
Cus I still wanna buy botrk,it's very useful and hydra's AoE
Every assassin mindset ever: "they can't kill you if you kill them first"
Kog maw : are u sure about that ?
And they think them doing their job easily Is a good thing for the game, lmao
@@stefanomartinelli7344 That´s what bothers me the most.
It would be a shame if the enemy played the same way, now, wouldn't it, Mr. Assassin.
@@stefanomartinelli7344 Suck at 5v5? Fear not, it wont happen anyway if your team assasin just remove their bot and support the moment 2 teams met
I'm a ziggs one trick and bot lane has been about the most fun thing I've played in a while. Countering nearly every popular champ is incredible.
Feel the same maining panth and destroying yone and yasuo
Other than draven, oof that’s a tough matchup
I have a horrible time playing bot zigs compared to mid zigs, any tips?
@@garrett1433 When you throw Q try to make sure you ALWAYS hit the enemy and the creeps it increases your efficiency which is sorely needed pre lvl 6. If you're having a hard time poking the bot lane don't be afraid to use satchel to guarantee comet since its almost impossible to react to. I always go flash tp getting the mana tome item is huge for staying consistent in lane. Any other specific questions let me know.
As an adc main, I am disgusted.
Poke champions do NOT like overloaded kits.
And these are more and more common
Poke champs were the overloaded kits of their time.
@@skillorb what do you mean? never in my life i heard about xerath, ziggs or vel koz beeing overloaded
@@skillorb since the start of the game poke champions were basically a bunch of skillshots that deal damage and maybe slow plus a passive
@@skillorb Ah yes the 4 skill shots and one CC ability on Xerath was truly overloaded as shit
@@bevvvy1374 *1 cc ability that doesn't even exist when you get engage on
I love artillery mages and I'm so sad that the new yordel will no longer be a artillery mage
Man we got our last real artillery mage in 2014 when it was that year when vel'koz was released
Sad
He was changed from artillery due to kog
Who is an adc..
@@fitmotheyap yeah that's sad but ay kog maw ap is the secret artillery mage so ey at least we got 4 then
Artillery mages are so out of meta, that to make one viable in league's current state would be making them absolutely disgusting and broken.
@@skillorb so...Zoe?
@@tenderandmoist5011 Zoe is not an artillery mage lmao what
Back in season 8, When Xerath, Velkoz, Lux, considered a hard matchup on midlane. Right now Literall all the midlaners which are slayers comes 3 or more dashes, sustain, Most of them doesn't even require mana or iq above room tempeture to play.
The top midlaner now are the same as in season 8
Stop the cap
Kinda sad we have only like a few counters to CC those dashes up.
But yeah we need more Anti-Dash and CC Suppression abilities to prevent any dashes or maybe escapes.
@@gunlyte4661 please stop the cap are you actually FOR more cc like supressions?? This person actually thinks we habe too little cc in the game. As if mal ult wasnt tilting enough XDXDXD
i think that mobility creep is a huge problem, but i think instead of adding more cc they should just try removing some of the problematic mobility. i feel like we'll have a whole new CC creep issue if that happens.
As a xerath main I find annoying that assasins, tanks and bruisers can be op for whole seasons but we cant have more than 2 patches of having a "strong" poke champ in the meta.
ikr
To be fair strong poke champions are amongst the most annoying un-interactive games you can have. "Oh yay, I got shot from the other side of the screen with no way to retaliate for the 10th time this minute, I wonder what I should do." Poke champions should be strong enough to threaten engage champions and punish them if they do not engage quickly and properly, but never stronger than that. It's just that how it is right now is plain unfair and even more frustrating than strong poke champions.
@@hungrymusicwolf Strong Poke Champions are not as annoying as assansins with 36286482 dashes and insane damage
@@hungrymusicwolf true
@@hungrymusicwolf You say that like there aren't assassins who's kits allow them to 100-0 you while spending over half of the fight being unattackable... The real problem artillery mages face is with range creep; Vel'koz E is 800 units, so that'll be the lower end for artillery mage range, here's a quick list of melee champs that either share or have longer ranges than that: Akali, Amumu, Blitzcrank, Braum, Camille, Cho'gath (this one feels roughest as his Q is basically the same ability as Vel'koz E, so why give the melee champ 150 more range?), Diana, Dr Mundo, Ekko, Evelynn, Fiora, Fizz, Galio, Gragas, Gwen, Hecarim, Illaoi, Irellia... you get the point - why the fuck would you play an artillery mage, when you can get similar if not greater range from the abilities from melee champs - let alone ranged champs - without having to sacrifice survivability, mobility and kill pressure? Poke champions is a misnomer, because almost everyone can poke, it's just 'poke' champions have that as their thing because they're bad at everything else.
"It wouldn't be a good design to let someone attack you from a full screen away with no way to dodge it"
I remembered about Senna and held my laughter down a bit
Yone can do this literally as a melee champ. Seraphine has 3 abilities which can do that as range.
And old aphelios with calibrum + chakram combo
Cant wait to see what they do for Vex's kit since they have claimed "she hates dashes" and will be at least somewhat of a long range mage
Global Poppy W or Global Taliyah E are my hopes
They changed it so that she's a medium ranged burst mage... I wish she was an artillery mage but looks it's not happening anymore
@@kelving420 yeah I saw that too but hopefully she'll be somewhat long ranged u know? Maybe like a burst-artillery mage like lux
She has an area slow and anti-dash in the shadow space
Prolly something like cass but it’s a inky shadow pull that’s slows and grounds you but doesn’t deal damage
Still thinking about how riot was going to release the first artillery mage in 7 years (Vex) and then decided nope, burst mage.
THIS!!!
Riot Games moment
To be fair, it was because of hardware limitations with what they wanted to give her kit, but I absolutely agree with you.
They explained why somewhere, they had a decent reason + she is control, not burst
@@azurclerx951 not burst? Ur out of ur mind
about the shielding/healing theme, does riot realise that having a shield AND lifesteal makes you WAY harder to kill?
i know it sounds like something really obvious, but when you have both, your effective health increase by a lot, because your shield gives you time to heal up with your lifesteal.
this becomes really obnoxious when a lot of meta champs run conqueror + triumph, champs like yasuo, yone, sett and now ashkan all have a shield and easy access to healing + shields thanks to shieldbow, goredrinker, bloodthirster and sterak's gage.
*Cackles in Riftmaker Voli*
That’s why I play barrier Warwick toplane
Olaf
Power creep.
New Champs have 23 different move abilities, 72 passives, and invuln/invis, so it's not like you can poke them down anymore
what do you mean? after three seasons of nerfs, akali can only gap close you from *one and a half* entire screens away now. you know, instead of two.
4:56 This is just a very subtle way to say Delete Yone
“Long range are usually super weak to balance out their range”
Akshan: I’m gonna pretend I didn’t hear that.
This one really hit home... when you said (and im para-phrasing) "you don't need macro if the enemy is dead" a part of me died. i mean i already knew this but.. to hear it said on this channel just confirms i have a codependent relationship with league lol. i love ADs like jinx and APs like ziggs. both destroy towers but if your team cares more about diving their squishies then you'll get squished by the enemy divers. it doesn't feel like a co-op game of chess as much as a 5x5 1v1's. which it should never be mostly one or the other but c'mon man... this is why "the meta" refers to which champs get the most kills. not strategies. you don't have to think about what the enemy is thinking about if you don't even have to use your brain to one shot their carry.
i'll never play meta. i'll play my way and maybe- just maybe- i'll have fun, too.
like to be fair dude there are masters otp for every champion, so if ya cant get high elo on a champion that you like it isnt because of the meta. There is a soraka mid otp that is grandmasters rn, hint thats not meta, so unless you are high elo I don't quite understand. It might take more time to figure out how to play w/e champ you like if there arent as many resources, but with replays and op.gg the play style should be optimizable
Trying to otp sona
Just losing all my hp bar from Darius running with ghost and using 2 autos and ult
Then there is Camille, her Q works with Divine sunderer
I beg for a nerf of this bullshit, 600 true dmg with 3 sec CD
Meanwhile Sett has a very long cooldown that makes it fair on his W nuke
1k true damage against a Sona
And with that champ u don't always have the luxury to buy a zhonya
@@alexarango1840 yeayea, of couse playing 99999 games, everyone can go to high rank🙄
I really hate this meta where if you play any kind of mage or ADC, you're useless because you get engaged on from three screens away by manaless champions with 5 dashes and then they heal to full HP.
You are just silver and dont know how to position
@@apmaz6112 Gold 2. And positioning doesn't matter when everyone has 3 dashes.
@@TwistedTeaFate that's untrue, maybe in gold 2, but in the game as a whole, if they have 3 dashes and run directly to you backline they're being burst down by your entire team
Imagine implying mages aren't the strongest class lol. They have so many tools to deal with literally everyone well having the most dam in the game.
@@JesusChrist-bx8ge literally the only mages that are good in this meta are Leblanc, Ziggs, Annie, Anivia, and Viktor.
8:28 why did they nerf the sustain Items but have sylas who heals like 800 hp with one point'n click ability?
you would think they are dying until they tap you two times and suddenly they're burst mages
Seems like the one's dying would be you
I mean if they got to that point they probably have 4 items most assassins do that at 2 1/2 items
That only happens if they are massively fed
If you're dumb enough to get hit by the whole kit then you should get bursted. Literally all it takes to counter them is one resistance item and they cant do anything.
@@smittywerben1849 imagine thinking RM items are good lmao
I kinda like the idea of trying to be a strategist but it is so unfullfilling when your team ints so it feels pointless learning any champ that takes effort when you can 1v9 as yone and win games without breaking a sweat and feel badass even tho it gets boring...
yone is a shit champ, i would love to see you climb with him haha
@@jpngoblin haha, I play him with 66 games and up to master rank which the last season is silver😂
This answers why riot had give up turning Vex in a artillery mage
Kinda wanted to see if she still has big range stuff,but not quite an artillery mage
i honestly think that had more to do with the fact that she's supposed to have mobility counter(s?) in her kit; imagine xerath, but aside from being 1.5 screens away he also denies assassins, and even if they make it through the gauntlet, he'd still have zhonya's + the enemy team. just doesn't seem very healthy
@@voidjelly better then current meta of hard engage, being a poke mage you have almost no counter play against it, the only options you have are:1. Not be there and starve with the enemy with 50 C's lead; 2. Poke them down heavily to deter them(they still might dive you); 3. Take one or all down with you( which is hard to do if they are sylas, yone, tank, etc.).
@@charly7937 honestly the issue isn't the items or anything
It's that 1 specific skilless combo in assassins
Zed E + Q with shadows and R mark(*slow* then one shot)
Talon W(*slow*) Q R aa ignite
Katarina no cc surprisingly but she has no skill shots as an assassin... E W Q R E
Rioooot why is the only counter zhonya(to zed that is,does nothing to qiyana and talon with low cds,kata who resets cds on your teammates and other crap with assassins)
Slayers aren't mentioned as that class needs huge item reworks unlike assassins
In other words remove AD life steal
Sylas just needs number tweaks(25-50% ap healing instead of like iirc 45-90%)
Back then we had some interesting team comps like poke, speed(kled, quinn, sivir , zilean/ karma/ janna, hecarim, shurelya's reverie etc.) or push(yorick, heimerdinger, and multiple zz'rots.) Now it's all based on damage or how many dashes/ stealth/ hard ccs they have in their team, which is really boring.
That's because they took some rather simple, easy items and fucked them all up and made em impossible to balance. Then, they called it item diversity when you see 4 shieldbows in every game.
I literally main only poke mages so I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels like that
loser
@@konakonakonakonakona ty
@@konakonakonakonakona lmao salty guy
@@konakonakonakonakona ok meta slave
cant notice the nukes when they are already dead 2 screen away.
I main poke champs (Ziggs and Velkoz) but I'm forced to go support because mid is now infested by dashing Ionian champs. Really hurts that you just wanna farm but suddenly the Ionian assassin dashes onto you and you could barely escape :(
weebs ruin everything
Riven mains be like "What is macro? Ive never saw this combo"
For real, the best part of your channel is that you make an actual critique of game instead of just saying "but this is high skill, so shouldve broken" and its amzing, good work!
4:58
dw he just grouped yasuo and yasuo 2.0 together, common mistake
man i love poke ...sadly riot does not i guess oneshot zed looks flashier than a vel koz combo.
Yeah, because mages having to hit 10 spells dealing less damage than a Zed barely hitting anything and point-and-click bursting you is perfectly balanced 🤡🤡🤡
@@endre7984 always funny when you hit 7 Xerath Qs that deal 350 dmg each only to get out DPS'd by diana ER
Zed' combos are flashier but they are not easy its not a point and click . Assassins are the toughest class in league
@@jadoniccryon5898 only skillshot he has is Q, velkoz has every single ability of his as a skillshot.
@@Raiko01 You dont even know hard it is to remember your shadow placement , target , which enemy can cc you . these poke mages arent doing anything highly mechanical they just poke thats all
4:55 When he said "all 7 of these champions," I thought he was counting Yasuo and Yone as the same champion
...and I can't entirely blame him
I still think Kog'Maw can be counted as a poke champion . Yes , i like Kog'Maw AP mid .
Rn I think healing and sustain is the root cause of a lot of the problems rn. The insane burst damage and the uselessness of poke are all a result of healing being so problematic.
Deleting/Reworking Conqueror would help. I see champions like Katarina heal themselves like an Aatrox without having any life steal or omnivamp in their items. Ravenous Hunter and Taste of Blood are something for sure, but i feel like Conqueror is way more problematic. It causes a lot of snowball in top lane too.
@@Vestiligium they already did lol conqueror healing is cosmetic at this point, i've had 50 min games where i only healed about 2k from it while not even behind. and then i notice taste of blood healed more somehow
@@Vestiligium I don't understand why conqueror even heals tbh. Remove the healing from it and I think the game would get a lot better. I also think they should remove ravenous hunter, it doesn't even make sense for the domination tree anyway. Maybe switch nimbus cloak and taste of blood around too
@@voidjelly Its not just the healing, remember it ramps your damage and give you healing. Notice that a lot of the problematic champs are all using conqueror or going electrocute and taking ravenous hunter.
@@mozzy2968 it use to deal true dmg
13:31 No, they wouldn't be broken. If they have to hit nearly all of their kit's skillshots to get a kill, it's fair. High potential damage in exchange for it being avoidable.
also, in xeraths case, stuns are really shit due to how tenacity works. Displacements and knockups are much more apreciated in this day and age. Xerath's E can stun as low as 0.4 seconds. Thats almost less than the cast time
Xerath e is one of the worst stun abilities
If they have tenacity runes AND mercs they won't even get stuned lol
they really need to like change his stun to a flat amount instead of basing it off distance... hell, make the damage based on distance
@@beluga2342 or better yet nerf aurelion sol
@@smittywerben1849 y sol? Fukin nerf irelia!
Man, I remember when Riot said "Vex" was going to be an artillery mage... I was soooo excited, but then they change her to a normal mage... I'm still sad but at the end of the day I will buy her because I like mages.
Also, poke champions are a dying class because of new champions having so much mobility, the new Itens give even more mobility (like mvs and dashes) and they also give a consistent Healing against poke.
I mean how are immobile poke mages like vel koz going to survive if everyone has 14 dashes, cc immunity, and camouflage
Thanks to the mobility and damage creep of the assasins pokemages can no longer be played in midlane and all they can do is euther play apc and bully the poor enemy botlane or play support and bully the poor enemy botlane
And i am not happ about it
Really good video. I think the current moment is the best posible to talk about how poke is dying since Riot has deliberately gave up on releasing an Artillery mage as the next champion.
For next topic, you could talk about Wardens who are also a dying archetype because they are too strong on proplay.
"If the enemy team is dead, none of that matters" Pain. All that matters in this game is which champion can unbothered run you down and destroy you. As someone who finds far more enjoyment in methodical wins than team deathmatch, it's just so hallow.
The class that likes the 15 minute aram
"They can't burst you down 100% to zero like burst mages"
Meanwhile, I have a clip of Xerath making enemy adc go from 100% to 10 hp in 1 Q
but did the ADC die :3
@@japes_l Yes, I had ult
Its not the same but i have one of pre nerf storm razor tresh catapulting to midlane and killing the enemy jax from 100% to 0 in one aa
That's a fed xerath and I love that feeling, like a hot knife through butter.
There is too much mobility being added and this kills the immobile pokers additionally with the higher damage we have nowadays the fights last shorter and make the pokers even worse.
As a Xerath main, it hurts to see all these power creep champs as well as mobility :(
After 5+ years of playing SMITE, another MOBA type game, I decided to finally try out LoL towards the end of Season 10. Being able to scale up and deal massive magic damage from a distance with the Artillery Mages, like Ra and Thoth, was my favorite playstyle for years and I was excited to try out characters like Xerath and Vel'koz. From my limited experience with LoL, Vars really nails it on the head with the "Death is the best CC" mindset and how all the extra healing, shields, and mobility make it ALOT harder for poke mages to function in this game. And to top it all off, I was excited to see the newest poke mage come out this season and possibly make the sub class stronger... until they announced they're changing her to be a standard mage. I've really tried to make the 3 artillery mages work, but it honestly doesn't feel like I can pick "whoever I want, simply because I like them."
glad i found this channel
to throw salt on our open infected wounds, i would like to add Riot decided to change Vex, new Yordle mage midlaner from an artillery mage to a "traditional" one. thus her release got delayed and Akshan came out sooner. reason : meta isn't in favor.
*they know it but they don't change it* that hurts man
Wait, did riot really state that themselves as the reason? "Meta isn't in favor."?
@Taliyah of the Nasaaj we talkin about the abilities,they are updating the engine so it's no problem for visuals
4:56 that editing caught me off guard and gave me the snickers. Thanks Vars.
I main Xerath mid and support and to me it feels that there are too many assassins that just kill you without giving even a chance to flash outa range which is why I take Xer as a support since I don’t need too worry as much about that (I use my adc as an Agro sponge lol)
What about evelynn and nocturn?
@@charly7937 funny enough ev isn’t too bad IMO since they always charm first which gives me a warning and Noc…well let’s pretend we don’t know he exist because Jesus Christ Noc mid was so annoying
This is by far the best league channel on UA-cam
I wanna see a poke champ who bounce their abilties off walls made by players or natural terrian and maybe they can make a wall themselves to bounce it to a low hp enemy last second
We've already got the trigonometry champ, so why not a Pool/Snooker champ lol
"Dealing damage in the neutral". It's good to find your channel again, I didn't remember you liked using fighting game terminology to explain League. I'm glad you made a video on my favorite class in the whole game. Hopefully, the new items can help with survivability and beating shields.
I've been waiting for this for 4... No, 5 thousand seasons!
My absolute favourite playstyle, i feel this is a very accurate video. I would have added Zyra to the poke champion rooster, but aside from that thi is an excellent analysis, as always.
more catch than poke imo
you know what they say, the best for of cc is death, cause ya can't move if you're dead.
I used to play a lot of vel support, there was one day, i can remember it very good, ive landed 3 skillshots just to see the enemy yuumi pressing e a single time to heal it all back up.
This day i completely quit playing these type if champs.
I was husteling, sweatting and trying so hard to land my skillshots thru the minions wave at the moving adc, only to see her doing legit nothing but pressing a single button.
"Poke champs can never one shot you."
Ziggs: one shot Senna with only ult at LCK
3:05 poor scuttle caught in the crossfire
When is ziggs gonna get buffed and be good for ONE patch without riot nerfing him shortly after
he was broken in bot and still is
@@biggiecheese2004 He's been pretty bad for a long time, so he deserves it
He’s good in...tft....
@@thelastsepheramain6867 that's not how game balancing works. they're not gonna let a champ be overpowered just because they weren't strong for a long time. remember udyr, at the beginning of S11? he was very strong, which is surprising for a champion that outdated. they nerfed him immediately, repeatedly, pretty hard. he's still fine in my opinion. but that's exactly the same concept. they're not going to let a champion terrorize the game just because they haven't for a long time. the exception being, of course, the newer releases. and lee sin.
Why would he get buffed when he's Meta rn with a high ban rate?
I really like how Vars uses references from other games to better explain LOL. Excellent video, as always.
Double lifesteal first items yasuo/yone says "lmao who?"
Heroes of the Storm is a different game for sure, but the artillery-est of poke mages in that game-Chromie-plays like a dream. I think that game’s bigger focus on objectives kinda fosters that, though.
when you have 1 flash .. and your opponent has 4 ... can traverse a series of walls for no reason.... can gapclose with an in frame... its not really a question.
is this about the 100 dashes new champs have or about the actual 4 flashes zoe sometimes has, i'm confused?
@@andyentity3034 it's about the fact mobility in general is the most overpowered thing In league, and the consistent power creep of new champs that makes older characters not feel good to play. Honestly they should just remove half the roster at this point because they are obsolete and aren't a good intro to the game anymore.
ahh finally the day has come
fire emblem footage
I dunno man.. Vel is my fav sup simply because i love seeing my enemies bleed slowly but surely..if they are forced to recall this gives my adc better cs than the enemy adc..and i also just love Ez with me as adc as we rain skillshot upon them
Nice video, I recently found xerath as an amazing support, he is really fun to play, especially if you have good aim. I agree on like every point you said, sadly poke mages don't get much attention in the current meta. I tried xerath mid a few times but just got stomped by high dmg assassins and many new or favourited champs...
Off-Topic: Also I hope they give some old champs something like audio reworks or skins with various reworks, some skins of outdated champs don't match with their audios at all...
Anyone who is reading this, have a nice day and good luck on your elo climb :D
I wish somebody in the league's balance team watxhed this video :(
That's a topic I thought about at some point and I can atribute poke champions' decline to four main factors.
1- Baron Nashor's rework
Two of artillery mage's biggest strenghts are both sieging and defending a siege. When Baron Nashor got reworked, its buff both replaces and counters these strenghts from mages. It counter mages because they can no longer instaclear minion waves and stall games forever (which by the way, is a good thing). At the same time, it replaces mages, because you no longer need them to siege.
2- Mobility creep
As you've stated, poke damage consists of skillshots. However, with how much mobility there is in the game, dodging skillshots have never been easier. More mobility also means it is easier to engage.
3- Easily accessible sustain
Again, that's a point you've made. The game has so much sustain poke damage has became no more than an inconvenience. That's the reason that, for example, Pantheon no longer make sense in the top lane. He isn't as good of a duelist as traditional fighters and compensates from being able to poke them from a distance, but Doran's Shield/Second Wind is so oppressive that poke is no longer a factor there. That's also the reason we no longer see mages top lane like Lissandra anymore. And of course, by the mid game, most champions can heal off all poke damage from minion waves.
4- Mid lane is no longer the optimal role for mages
Mages were most commonly seen in mid lane on the past for two reasons: first, it is the short lane, therefore, safer for the immobile champion to go. Second, as spellcasters, they scale with levels, so they get the most value out of experience. While the second point still holds true, the first does not. Mid lane is no longer safe because mid lane isn't about sitting in lane farming for half of the game anymore (which is a good thing). The mid lane is more dynamic, you are expected to rotate (which, I repeat, is a good thing) and the moment you do, you don't have a short way to safety. The mages who are still mid laners are either those who excel at rotations (Twisted Fate, Aurelion Sol), are direct counters to popular picks (Lissandra, Malzahar) or have some sort of self peel that allows them to continue playing the old way (Vladimir, Ryze). Even champions who in the past were considered well rounded, meta transcendent such as Orianna are on a very weak state nowdays.
In the present, the mages that don't meet the conditions above make more sense in the bot lane, either as the carry or not. As a carry, laning with another champion provides the safety mid laner no longer do, or as a support, when can dedicate all their resources to supress the enemy carry's growth. However, there they also face a problem. As a support, their build path is far more expensive than the competition. As a carry, its even worse: Riot deliberately and blatantly favors marksmen, their competition, to the point they get targeted even when marksmen are already the dominant force. Most recently, Ziggs received nerfs no more than 2 patches after he became viable. A year ago, Syndra received 3 consecutive nerfs despite having half a percent play rate and Cassiopeia, who was overpowered across both roles, haven't received a nerf, but rather, an base armor nerf and base magic resistance buff, just to keep her out of bot lane. Its not even mages who suffer from that favoritism either. Marksmen themselves, upon finding new builds for different playstyles receive nerfs or rebalancing attempting to force them into the same playstyle all other marksmen already do. Varus is the more prominant example of that, but Jhin, Ashe and Miss Fortune also got similar treatment at one point or the other for going comet, lethality or both for a poke heavy playstyle.
The end result is that champions with potential for poke playstyles get that playstyle suppressed (Doran's Shield+Second Wind in top lane, enforcing cookie cutter scaling right click champions in bot lane) and dedicated poke champions such as artillery mages are being balanced for a lane they no longer make sense and away from the lane they do make sense.
They just need quicker travel time on their skills , or burst like lux/zoe to make them more appealing
Quicker travel time make them brain dead undodgeable and pretty much all of them have burst
Burst like Lux ? Excuse me but she has one of the lowest scalings in the game. Xerath has almost double her stats and velkoz does true damage. She is only good because everybody simping for her (including me).
@@amilo5 her ult has a 100% AP ratio. Lux scales incredibly well into late game.
@@mooglemage6456 100% is abysmal low thats almost as much as some champions base skills like xerath and velkoz. Neeko has 130% and damage reduction. Yes she can Spam her ult kind of but no she does not scale well one engage and you are toast.
your voice is so silky smooth and relaxing, awesome video, awesome narrating
Repeat with me:
*Zoe is a PROPER artillery mage by every definition*
Good? Good
EDIT: No, poke meta is not worse than tank meta. Poke meta at least takes skill.
True, the thing is that her damage is a little to high for what this class is supposed to be. In every other aspect she's straight up an artillery mage, especially if it comes to her lack of defense against any engage. (480k mastery Zoe onetrick btw XD)
@@otonashienima3429 I mean, it's not like Xerath can't ever kill you
True, but his damage is still quite lower, especially when it comes to bursting a champ in one swipe, Zoe has the upper hand. And with the tank-meta you're absolutely right, in poke-meta you have to earn the kill, in tank-meta you just click the enemy and hope that your champ lives longer
"Poke champions have a tendency to lack satisfying or flexible gameplay"
Meanwhile you have Karma pressing Q and R on CD on laning phase while being able to shield allies and root enemies.
Poke champions are inherently bad design? How about most other champions having 2+ dashes? That's not what's wrong?
trueee
i know a game where every champion is a poke champion and has a dash
and man it's fun
@@neodymus what game is that :p
@@regem9121 Battlerite T_T (the game is discontinued)
i mean servers are up, but there is no longer updates because it's not popular enough. As a results only veterans are here and it becomes harder to start now but feel free to try it anyway
Never thought I'd hear the word 'oneshot' being used in the context of a real life sniper lmao
Me, a zoe, xerath, ziggs, vel koz main.
**you fool, I am the embodiment of a dying archetype**
"most of these champions not known for sniping you across the screen"
Zoe and Nidalee - I'm in danger
It makes me sad that poke mages dont get as much love as the rest of the classes. Vel'koz is my favorite champion bar none but as time goes on and more champs get released it just feels like I am able to contribute less and less to actually winning the game.
This is why I love Viktor's E so much. It's a great poke tool and you can aim it as you are walking away. Combine an upgraded E with a full build, and Viktor gets very scary to play against.
I think an ardent censer Meta, is far worse then a poke meta
No, tank meta was worse, imagine a Mundo or sejuani running at you...
I kind of count Sivir and Varus as poke champs (Mainly from Build but their abilities do quite the distance) even though the ones you presented are Artillery Mages.
Like ADC, they do tend to die a lot (especially when they are on my team)
If the jungler is playing Kha’Zix, kayn, Evelynn or rengar just give up, there isn’t a point of even trying as a poke mage against those guys.
Love the subtle Fire Emblem songs playing in these videos
Two Huge things I think you forgot to mention is:
1. How Baron works now vs in the early days. Minions take very little damage from magic with baron buff. Back in the day, you could clear them anyway, but now you can't.
2. Is rift herald. You can't poke it away... There's nothing you can do to stop it, and you can't exactly walk up to it and auto it from behind.
god i love your content, i love informative long-form content about games I like, keep it up!
As someone who only really played LoL for a bit here and there it was kind of interesting how mages and especially poke mages are in such a situation. Because in the Moba I have played much more named Smite I found mages to be very popular. While there is not that many "proper" artillery mages (Agni, Toth, maybe Kukulkan and Ra.) there is quite a few characters that are built around medium distance poking.
The tradeoff for having long range is present even in battle cats, where some of the longest range units are the most fragile, the slowest, and are supseptible to hard pushers, tanky units, speedy units, or enemy long range carries killing them.
I think you were a little off the mark on this one, i've been maining Xerath and Ziggs for a long time now and i've been playing league since 2010. Xerath does really good burst damage and can easily, EASILY one shot an ADC when he's even remotely fed, artillery mages are weak to high damage gap closers and funnily enough, tanks. They're highly limited by their cool-downs and if an enemy can survive their burst, its quite difficult to deal with them. It can be impossible to deal with a Mundo for example. Mobility creep is one of the biggest counters to artillery mages as well, the game is so much more mobile now and that has a couple of knock up effects. First, it enables assassins, slayers ect to get on top of you (Kayn is horrible for this) and kill you, second, it enables more dodging of skill shots. If I don't hit my skills as Ziggs or Xerath, i'm completely dead weight. It can be completely impossible to hit a lot of champions at longer range once they're dodging and even close range. Ziggs is awful for this, Q has a really bad hitbox.
Most of the time, artillery mages will lose the game at champ select, because the enemy team will pick someone you cannot deal with. I've had Xerath games where i'm full build at 30 mins and can oneshot the entire enemy team and I cannot carry because i'm able to be killed by a 2 item Shaco. You need to be 10x better than your opponents if they happen to have a good counter pick and even then, a single mistake will wipe you out. The reason they don't see much play at top level is because they are too higher risk for the reward they bring, its like playing a "protect the kog" team, only your glass cannon can't have life-steal and his damage is completely dodge-able.
The next champ slated to be released (Vex, the Gloomy Mage) was originally being developed as a poke/artillery mage but her release date was pushed back so they could rework her into more of a burst mage. I wonder why? 😯
Velkoz literally makes a giant crevice in the earth to a realm of unspeakable horrors and we still call it poke
"Attack you from a full screen away with no way to doge it"
I present to you : Skywraith Mage
4:45, funny editing mate!
as a previous xerath main, you put EVERYTHING into the late game, taking tear and harvest, and if you play it right you can one shot any squishy champion. but getting the ball rolling is pretty difficult
This is why I love playing Gnar. You get the best of both worlds of being a poke champion with strong engage
Good video but i think it lacks 2 elements.
1st Is how bad artillery mages are in the competitive scene to a point where the most played one in pro play is AP Kog (wich i found odd you dont mention in the video) .
2nd is how RIOT completly stopped the concept of poke tanks , Mundo used to be known for this and Maokai E was a decent poke tool untill it got nerfed to the ground and is basicly useless unless buffed from a bush