Це відео не доступне.
Перепрошуємо.
Players Guess Plot Twist, DM Reacts TERRIBLY
Вставка
- Опубліковано 17 сер 2024
- A tale of what happens when players dare to theorize about their D&D game...
Join the Discord! / discord
Submit Your Story! / critcrab
Support me on Patreon! / critcrab
Follow me on Twitter! / crabcrit
MERCH! teespring.com/...
Should I make a UA-cam shorts channel for shorter stories?
No shorts suck. I hate them
Why not?
It sounds fun to be honest, and as a separate channel it means it won't clog up your main channel! It sounds like a fun idea
Absolutely!
@@angrybox4253 Just don’t watch them?
If people guess a plot twist in a story right, it means you've done foreshadowing correctly. DM and Player should both be proud within the context of D&D.
(vauge spoilers for Steven universe and attack on Titan)
Eh, not always. Sometimes it's way too obvious what a plot twist is that the fans knew a while ago, like the true nature of who rose quartz is in Steven universe. Sometimes a plot twist was truly one you never saw coming, but still works, like basically most of attack on Titan. It's more about giving enough clues for your audience to piece the puzzle together, if they know how to do so.
Correct. HOWEVER!
I think punishing players for guessing the plot twist is acceptable... but only in certain circumstances. Ie, if players guess the upcoming twist, but then suddenly start acting upon it with no IC justification. For example, the BBEG is our party's employer- they've done nothing to suggest they are anything but nice to the party. But suddenly, a character starts having doubts over why they're doing what they're doing, with no real explanation as to why other than "I have a bad feeling about this". Or worse, they suddenly fixate on wanting to do something ("Let's sneak into our boss's house when we have no reason to do so right now.") for no apparent reason other than for the player to test their hypothesis.
That, IMO, is worthy of punishment - because that player is not role-playing, they are trying to "win". Or, as I call it, "CinemaSinsing" where characters are somehow "stupid" for not knowing what is intended for the AUDIENCE to know.
In this case? The DM was NOT justified in punishing the players.
@@Terestrasz well said
@@internetperson3436 I think you might be unintentionally merging plot twists and foreshadowing as the same thing. Plot twists by their very nature are intended to be surprises in the narrative that changes how the story is perceived. But the term foreshadowing is a bit more vague. Its just about building up or leading to a plot point. It can sometimes be done in small discreet ways. But it doesn't always have to be
Well, it depends.
It can also mean that the foreshadowing was a little too obvious, depending on if you were trying to let them figure it our or if you were trying to only make them add up in hindsight. Or it can just mean that your story was predictable and you did a bad job of coming up with a twist.
I mean, just to quote George R.R. Martin, " I’ve been planting all these clues that the butler did it, then you’re halfway through a series and suddenly thousands of people have figured out that the butler did it, and then you say the chambermaid did it? No, you can’t do that,"
It's a credit to the player, not a detriment to the GM
Hey his initials are GM. lol.
@@shadowthehedgehog3113 well more GRRM
On the other hand pointing towards one person doing it then having a twist that someone else entirely did it is a completely legitimate choice too and is often fine.
Unless you do it our of spite after people work out your original conclusion.
@@DGneoseeker1 I agree, with the caveat that it has to make sense in hindsight. The reader/viewer/players have to be able to look back and see the sleight of hand that mislead them. Like a good murder mystery that involves the killer trying to frame someone else, or maybe even the original "Friday the 13th" movie.
It rarely ever works when someone just pulls that sort of twist from out of nowhere, because it hasn't been foreshadowed itself in any way so it rings hollow. At it's worst it turns into deus ex machina, and that is always unsatisfying.
I'm assuming he said this after season 8 aired? Poor guy, it must've annoyed him to see them pull that shit.
Let me get this straight: the DM's feedback to the player was, essentially, that her character should smile more and show a bit more skin?!
Certainly feels that way. This reeks of "women are only dolls for my enjoyment" entitlement.
It was, more specifically, a thinly veiled attempt to get the player to be more open to "romantic" or even "erotic" roleplay with him specifically.
He kept sending NPCs who were expressing interest in her, and when she wasn't 'biting', he escalated it by trying to change how her character was.
The reason for this is because, ultimately, DM was attempting for form a romantic bond with this girl by proxy, thinking that if his NPCs could impress her character, then he could impress her.
Yuuuuuup. It was also obvious he kept trying to force her into a "fade to black" scenario.
lmao, it’s a misogyny moment.
not to mention both girls in the party were constantly being pitted against each other. do you know how horrible it feels to be on either side?? god
@@DEM0NGUTS_ Being male, I can't know what it's like to be in that situation. I can suspect; I can barely frigging imagine. I know enough to know it's a scummy thing to do, and refrain from doing it and call it out when it happens. That will have to do.
My players guessed a plot twist I was building up to in my campaign, but instead of getting mad I rewarded their out-of-character guesses with in-character information so their characters could put it together. It's literally that simple. I believe in rewarding my players for being smart. Sure, it may change the planned story route or the difficulty of a fight, but I still have fun and they still have fun! Sometimes it's better to roll with the punches over getting mad at your players for not following what you want them to do.
Finally a person of quality!
That is how you do it
I’ve called out one of the villians having time powers and the dm got mad because of how easily I got it, nothing bad happened it was just funny
I love it when my players try to figure out the plot twists, and it's even better when they do figure it out because I get to see their minds blown when it happens. I also enjoy watching their reactions when they finally learn whether their predictions were correct or not. It makes me feel like a good storyteller because my audience is as engaged with my story as I am
@@jonathanbartlett1098 Entirely this! That's pretty much what happened in the situation I was referring to. OOC they figured it out based on some non-relevant information, then I gave them hints in canon, and then their characters figured it out. They said that while it was kinda obvious and a well-known trope, it was done very well so it was fun for them to piece together.
I've seen "it was all a dream" used once successfully. The DM and players agreed to it mutually after a TPK, so they could continue a campaign all were enjoying. THIS IS THE IMPORTANT PART, in case no one figured that out already. And it was written into the plot as a deliberately planted prophetic shared dream. But it's not a good idea in general, as noted in the video above.
Yeah, I invoked it one time after the players decided to really screw around, act OOC by their own standards, and just see how far they could push it until they completely broke the plot. Then they completely broke the plot, and realized that actually what they'd done wasn't nearly as fun or funny as they expected it to be. When I offered the "It was all a dream" solution, they agreed to it.
I was thinking, wouldn't it be cool to have it as: real dangerous enemy appears, TPK, it's a dream, and then reveal the real twist, it actually happened or was more than a dream, but rather an enemy who can attack people on dreams, the BBEG. I'm not sure how to handle if you die in dreams you die IRL and TPK, but there has to be a way to maneuver around it and having it make sense such as they are lost souls who turn into revenants or have to make a pact with a powerful afterlife entity to have a shot at killing the BBEG
That's still bad DM-ing, because it makes for terrible storytelling and a terrible story. The DM should have fudged his dice rolls instead.
@@schizophrenic_rambler This is no joke kind of the plot of Dragon Quest 6. It gets weird, and takes bigger swings than the series usually does, but does it pretty well.
"a woman on her 30 is too old to get married but also this other girl is too young to get married and she will cheat"
The incel mindset is irrational, founded upon resentment at women and girls giving way to hatred, or at least condescension. There is no internal coherence to such a person's views, they will state whatever semi-ethical pretext they can think of in the moment to demean the specific woman in question at that time. It's a pattern common to pretty much all hatreds directed at groups or populations, in my experience.
@@maximsavage I know. But is still pretty hilarious to see in action.
Allow me to translate:
"A woman in her 30's is too old for me" = "I've been rejected by women in my age group so I no longer feel like I have a chance actually marrying within my age group."
"You're too young to get married." = "If I can delay you from getting married to somebody else, I might have a chance to sweep you off your feet because you being younger means that the barrier for entry is also lower compared to women in my age group."
most incels (specifically the male ones in this case) try to give off the impression that they have a somewhat sanctimonious and puritan (no drugs, alcohol or casual sex before marriage) mindset but it's never really genuine.
incels, niceguys/girls or whatever you want to call them at the end of the day only want sex and nothing else.
@@xsoultillerx They want what they can't get (the privilege of reproduction) by competing the 'normal' way, so they try to make themselves seem like they are morally superior to those who can get it.
It's the Sneaky Bastard method. Like the same people who will compete as 'allies' when all they want is to get laid.
a predicted twist isn't spoiled until it is finally revealed, until then you stay neutral and bide your time. they'll lose their minds when they were right, and there's nothing more heartwarming than watching that pure excitement (unless they're a douche about it)
Sometimes the predictions are better then the plan, and in those instances I'll make changes to the original plan to the guess, they feel super smart for "figuring it out" and i don't have to admit my cliche plot wasn't as good lol
@@jasonrustmann7535 I've been in campaigns where the plot twist we predicted was so much more interesting than what the DM had planned, that she ended up changing her own story to go with the one we'd made up. Now THAT takes skill and dedication, to rewrite your story like that.
Honestly, it's not a big deal.. Hell, one of my fellow players called a twist at the beginning of campaign and I thought. "No that too obvious and there was no proof " And what not. So a hold year later, trying to bring someone back from a costly fight. *A near TPK* And the person we used "tried" to bring our player back and told us we need a big boy rez spell. Before we go on a epic quest to bring back our friends. I had a feeling and I thought. "I can try to bring our friend back" So I attempt it and it's worked. So we asked why she lied trying to bring our friend back and revealed that she was a evil god trying to screw over us and escaped. Did it change anything OFG? No, it made a good moment in the group and still talked about it time to time.
Considering the avalanche of red flags that came afterward, I'm hard pressed to believe that the plot twist incident was what triggered the DM's bad behavior. Maybe it was the flashpoint incident that made OP start noticing it more or treating it more seriously, but that DM definitely has issues. Especially with women.
100% dude is a total creep
When a player discovers a twist I had planned, I reward them with inspiration. Not only were they paying attention, but they proved to me my story is cohesive and makes sense. Thank you, attentive player!
TIP FOR NEW DM’s:
If your players are talking about what could happen, listen to them! They might give you a better idea than your original plan.
Example: My group had down time and we decided to go shopping and I said OOC “hey wouldnt it be funny if we got ambushed” 5min later we were in the middle of a sword shop and turned out some of the customers were cultists in disguise. Then a young black dragon smashed his head through the shop and used his breathe weapon. It was a great encounter I still think about. After the session the DM told us he only got the idea after I said something.
Hope this helps your future games
Oh yeah no, “write that down” moments are bound to happen
There's a reason why some people say, don't give your DM ideas, because this is bound to happen.
in one session a few weeks ago we kept saying that there was going to be a troll under a bridge, we were insistent on it even though our dm didnt have a troll under there. next session there was a troll under there and we decided to avoid the fight entirely, our dm was pissed lmao. when we went back to the same spot a few sessions later we ended up having to fight the troll and his buddies because he wouldnt accept mayonnaise as a good fee to pass over the bridge. was such great fun that we caused to happen
Its always good to listen to your players. I might be one of the worst dnd players but i have good ideas and maybe i gave some help my dm sometimes bc i was kinda friends with him.
If my party says "Don't do this" but in more of a facepalm and start laughing way our DM will 100% do it. We met two Tabaxi once that offered us pasta and happened to have red and green tribal paint, so I joked about how they'd better not be named Mario and Luigi...he named them Mario and Luigi immediately after I said that, and started doing an accent too 😂
The dm sounds like came from the "subvert expectations at all costs" school of story telling.
He even subverted expectation of being a good person!
He'd fit right in with the GoT show-writers. They subverted expectations brilliantly by convincing people they were watching a great show right until the final season proved that not to be the case.
@@Lucifronz Do not forget Rian Johnson.
@@YAH93well with him, he can make great films. In a vacuum, Last Jedi is pretty cool. Problem is, it isn't a good sequel, and it was supposed to be a sequel. He wanted to do his own thing and no one stopped him
Typically, if some of your players figure out an upcoming twist they should be rewarded, not punished. It shows they're paying attention which should be a nice confidence boost to any DM.
EDIT: It seems my lord Crabbington agrees.
Benefit of the doubt: There are probably way more positive storys out there. Written down or not.
But this is not a channel for the love & wholesomeness.
We are here to cringe and fear - to glee and to sneer - and now I've rhymed so someone get me a beer! :D
@@FreedomAndPeaceOnly 🍺
It’s also a positive reflection on your story writing skills; you were able to leave enough information they were able to come to that conclusion after putting the pieces together after all, and it wasn’t some out of left field ‘gotcha’ thing
Indeed, you should reward them - not punish them.
ONLY punish them for figuring out an incoming twist if they start trying to use it to their advantage. For example, if one of my player had figured out that say, the person our party's working for is the BBEG, and their character suddenly starts having doubts the next session or so? Then I would indeed punish them, especially if they were to say, insist that the group's employer is the BBEG. What reason(s) does YOUR CHARACTER have? Punish them if they cannot separate IC and OOC.
Partly, i would agree. Partly, i can not. I am currently in 3 games, one as DM and two as a player. And based on my experience (and my own deeds), some players just pay attention very closely and are trying to figure out what would happen next. Other players (me in one of the campaings) are just playing not-so-right-in-the-head character that is making up conspiracy theories about everything, mostly what i think would be too crazy and no way happening. And sometimes, i actually predict the future using those random conspiracies and wild theories.
But as i DM, i do agree, that story should not be changed when players guess it. They don't even know that they guessed right until it happens, and then, they can be proud of themself of doing a good job (or being lucky by roleplaying an idiot, my case :D )
Y'know, considering this guy apparently found OP through her Twitch stream, and the patterns of a) low-key sexual harassment out of game with the shirtless pics, b) HIGH-key sexual harassment IN-game trying to repeatedly force her into uncomfortable situations (with the patron included, it honestly feels like trying to force a slavery kink on OP's character), and c) being overcontrolling of the OP's character, I... wouldn't be surprised if the DM invited her to his game solely because he thought she was hot and wanted the chance to flirt with her (or, in this case, to project his idea of what he wants her to be like onto her character and then be creepy and sexual to that character like he actually wants to be to OP). I can't say for sure that's what happened, but that's my suspicion. Glad OP's getting out of there regardless.
it would be pretty hilarious if the DM turned out to be arcadium.
the part about OP being a streamer immediately reminded me of his MO of getting people to play in his games.
@@xsoultillerx arcadium?
@@xsoultillerx Yea, what’s arcadium?
he was that DnD streamer who got outed as a sex pervert and made a supervillain-esq monologue about why he didn't play among us.
i don't think he ever apologized for what he did either.
I was looking for someone to point this out. Unless I misheard, she's in his "age range" as well. Guy probably thought he was subtly complimenting her on not having kids yet and not being too old and ugly to make him want to inflict some on her.
Honestly, that's probably influenced her position on not wanting "feedback" unless she asked him for it. It was her gut telling her that his interest was too personal and focused on her submission and sexuality, using her character as a proxy. If a different DM had, unprompted, given leveling up tips or roleplay advice without the weird insistence on removing her choices in favor of his and putting her in sexualized situations, I think her alarm bells wouldn't have gone off and she wouldn't feel like she had to shut it down. Her descriptions sound like she felt violated, and I think that's accurate.
I was in a game once where one of the players was playing a "gypsy" fortune teller. Every week she brought her tarot deck and every week she accurately predicted what would happen in that session. It was funny but also kinda freaky.
stuff like this and that fortune teller from kitchen nightmares who perfectly predicted the restaurant's fate (along with the owner's marriage) is why i'm willing to believe fortune telling to an extent.
It's gotta happen to some player eventually.
Yo there's a fortune teller NPC my DM uses tarot cards for. No joke every time we have gotten fortunes they have been accurate. They are scary and we know believe that NPC is all knowing and joke she knows she's in a game.
That word in quotes there is a slur, don't use it again
@@zfreedom5854 actually gypsy is embraced as a term by a lot of the romani people some people see it as a slur due to its use by racists but we should honor the origin of the word not how those who mean no good used it
I heard a quote once “If some people can predict the ending of your story it doesn’t mean you’re a bad writer it means your story follows a logical narrative that people can follow and work out” or something to that effect. I detest writing that rely on some big twist or subversion that makes no sense and just feels like the writer going “weren’t expecting THAT we’re ya? Hah!” Like just because no one expected the princess was really three kobolds in a ball gown working a puppet head and arms does not mean it was a good idea
Just to be clear though, that IS a fantastic idea.
Yeah, I'm absolutely stealing that for a campaign. Dunno exactly how I'll foreshadow it yet, but it's a delightful idea that could lead to an excellent side quest!
Sounds like you're describing Now You See Me
Ironically you came up with a good idea
But the thing is it could be fun if it’s foreshadowed with finding tinkering tools and puppet wire in the princess room and her passing off her raspy voice as a chronic cold, not build up it’s actually the aged king who has magically transferred his soul into his daughters body and is in fact the same ruler who founded the kingdom who’s been doing this for generations but one of your player’s guesses “oh is this like that thing in ranking of kings?” And you panic and boom kobold puppet princess
In DC Comics’s Armageddon 2001 event, there was a villain called Monarch who was supposed to be one of the heroes who snapped. All the hints were signaling that Captain Atom was gonna become Monarch, and people guessed it- so DC changed it purely out of salty, entitled, childish spite, so HAWK became Monarch in contradiction of everything established about his character in canon, and by fridging Dove no less.
So yeah, this mindset is not exclusive to GMs. It’s a time-honored tradition among whiny pissbabies who want everything their way. And like this GM, DC also tried to cover up their mistake, and THAT attempt was a Voodoo Shark in its own right and also had ties to the awful Countdown.
The funny part was that after making Hawk Monarch instead, they tried a few times to make Captain Atom Monarch, which was probably worse than when Hawk became Monarch.
Countdown seems to be nexus for all the bad shit in DC since like 2000 or so until Rebirth.
Everything about Countdown sucked. EVERYTHING. Succesor to 52 it was not...
@@alnu8355 *insert the image of mary marvel whapping kyle rayner*
Yeah, that STILL pisses me off.
I had to TPK a party once, then retconed it. They were brand new to TTRPGs, and approached the game with a video game mentality. Ended up abandoning the dungeon to screw around in town, where they assaulted an NPC they didn't like, and we're consequently taken out by guards. I let them walk it back to before they left the dungeon so they could keep their characters. Thankfully they seemed to learn their lesson and I never had that kind of problem again.
A good way to handle the situation is have the town guard subdue and capture them. Make those who insist on flaffing about learn the consequences of their actions. With a lower level adventuring party you don't need any guardsmen but the captain to be significant and you could use use sheer numbers of 10 HP peons to bring down the PC's. Getting captured means you can eschew death saves and place them into the Magistrate's Custody, where the adventure could proceed from there, Labors of Hercules style... Now your would-be murderhobos have been loaded onto the train... Chugga chugga choo choo!
Wait... I apologize if I'm misreading this but, they hit someone and you made the towns guard murder them all in response? Again maybe I'm misunderstanding but it sounds like you were the one who thought it was a video game lmfao! Only in Skyrim have I seen that response from guards, I woulda noped outta that table in a heart beat. Followed up by reloading their previous save point is honestly the cherry on top for this story. If what I've understood is correct (which I'm almost 90% I don't actually understand because I for the life of me don't understand how this could be seen in a good light) you seemed petty they left the dungeon, killed them all over an arrest-able offense, and then said "now do you want to do my dungeon or not?"
@@totallyrealname6376 well, the NPC they attacked was inside a rich guy's mansion so there were guards and other NPCs around - it's not like they just materialized out of nowhere. But I kinda see your point. Also, they didn't just 'hit' the girl, they tried to force-feed her a giant, poisonous centipede (long story)
This DM was not being contradictory in this story, not at all. This happens a lot not only to incels, but in many other groups of people whose beliefs and value of self are based upon enmity towards another group.
Incels validate themselves by believing women suck. "They are evil". "They are vain". "They are just bitches who obey the alpha male". They think that's why they can't get laid, they are too good for women. Then they pose as the alpha male, maybe that way they can get someone.
But if a woman happens to not be all that bad... Then what does it mean for them? If not all women are bad, then whose fault it is they can't get laid? They can't stand that thought, that they are to blame. Which is why this DM was forcing OP to fit the mold of women he believes in.
I guessed the plot twist very specifically in Danganrompa 2, and my friend was FURIOUS but they couldn't show it. So they tried their best to make me doubt myself, so it turned into a joke where I would just shout it out. Then the reveal I actually was estatic. Guessing twists may suck but it feels wonderful when you're proven right.
Lol, it happened the same way for me when I was playing Danganronpa 1. I guessed a lot of plot points but discarded some because my friends made me doubt myself.
Ngl the stories of danganronpa are kinda basic but that doesn't make it bad. I feel like a lot of fans act like the plot twists are super wild and unexpected but like. You play one you know how the rest are gonna go and that's not even a bad thing. The meat of the story should be what draws people in not the plot twists
Edit:
Like I didn't play part 2 and 3 cuz I expected something new and never before seen. I played for characters in a plot that I was familiar with and enjoyed
@@eminempreg if you didn't play 2 and 3, how can you make a sweeping statement about all the DR games? Idk man, Goodbye Despair is, in my opinion, ten times better than Trigger Happy Havoc
Unless it completely ruins the mystery. Arkham Knight is a fantastic example of this, when they show the most famous scene in death in the family as a part of a flashback... it becomes super easy to tell who the 'Mysterious' Arkham Knight is because there would be no reason to actually have it unless it was for that specific purpose. It _killed_ that game's biggest mystery. And sucks especially hard in comparison to the previous games' twist in that the Joker actually was dying.
@@tcrpgfan It shouldn't have been this dramatic and the fact that the "world's best detective" couldn't solve it while the players knew HOURS before the reveal. If they played it off normally and the twist would've been that Batman knew, then it would've been way better.
A good way to throw people off is to give the party some red herrings (not literally). Plot twists are like magic tricks. You're trying to distract the people from the things that make the trick to seem magical.
Oh thank God, i thought you were gonna make me throw birds at my players until they agreed to not predict plot twists, but then you said not literally
@@justsomeguywholikeswater3566Don't throw birds and fish at your players my guy. Throw puppies, their adorableness will distract them enough to distract them. If they aren't a dog person, then throw kittens instead.
@@justsomeguywholikeswater3566 sometimes throwing a fish in their face is okay...if the setting is a fishermans village and they were following your red herring and at the end of that you just slap that fish into their faces :D
Aww, I was looking forward to that fish until you said not literally :(
The red herring being they found a red herring in the caverns lake that had a coin in the shape of a red herring, 1 side being a red dragon and the other being a bronze dragon.
The whole "metagaming" narrative is beyond infuriating in every way. The players in that post were literally just discussing the details of earlier events that directly involved their characters, speculating on what they meant, and deducing what might happen next. Someone should tell OP that this bizarre, lesser known phenomenon is called "playing an RPG". Moreover, metagaming is simply the act of using information that you have as a player, that your character does not, in order to inform your character's decisions. Sometimes metagaming is good, sometimes it is bad. But "understanding the plot" is neither. In fact, it's about as unrelated to metagaming as anything can possibly be.
It could not be more clear that "metagaming" is just a nifty buzzword the DM saw online and was way too eager to have a powerfully negative emotional reaction to and try to apply to his game, despite having zero idea what it means, let alone why it can be a bad thing, or what he should do to handle it *if* that happens. Sadly, that is all too common in this hobby.
More importantly, making the players informed enough to all be on the same page about the story, while also being engaged enough to actively discuss it, and discuss it *accurately,* is a wonderful experience that is incredibly difficult to achieve, even for the most experienced groups. And having to sit here and listen to the DM react, not only with resentment, but also with naked hostility and petty fiat, to a situation that most DMs (myself included) would literally kill to experience has made me so incredibly salty that I want to let loose a primal scream even though I'm at work right now.
What confuses me is, if you like the party members but don’t like the DM, why not just keep in touch with the party members to play another campaign with hopefully a better DM?
bc new the game players don't know where to find new DM's.
@@cattiston374 It took me awhile to even learn about roll20 and people tell me I'm an amazing roleplayer, so not really if you aren't super invested. I've been in my fair share of games and I don't know what an LFG is, either. You do realise people can casually play DnD right? I know folk who have a game a day, and folk who can only manage one campaign. People are different to your experience and not everyone will realise it's super easy to find DM's if you know where to look - cause first you gotta KNOW where to look. She was approached as a twitch person, I doubt she dedicated her whole life to knowing all there is to know about the community with the campaign. You can also be new to dnd and be an amazing roleplayer, you definitely don't need to be a veteran to work off people. So idk. It seems weird to argue what they COULD do when it's already happened.
I think she figured it out at the end there.
@@TonksTheFool Or scared about trying a DnD game with strangers sometimes. I won't lie, I'm personally terrified about the idea of joining a Roll20 game, it's just a hard barrier to break through.
@@MrJesuisOMG That‘s partly proof you‘ve listened to too many horror stories - BUT also means you will be able to identify problems and bow out before anything bad happens to you. Just try it out. At worst you‘ll lose a few hours of your time, at best you‘ll have fun.
The Beauty of the celestial character constantly turning heads could have been an interesting thing to play off of.
Having every npc struggle with her appearance being distracting could lead to a point of interest when some NPC shows up that seems to be totally unaffected by her beauty.
I could almost imagine a side plot where news of this effect starts going around the town they're visiting, and a portion of the civilians are afraid to approach or carefully avoid the Celestial for fear of being "put under the spell". Especially if it was in a region where Celestials were rarely seen or spoken about. Then an unaffected NPC shows up and helps convince the other townspeople that there's nothing actually bewitching about the player character at all. Maybe they already had such preconceived notions from the last time a Celestial visited the region, and that particular person actually did have nefarious intentions...
Still, apparently, to that guy, being beautiful mean NPCs presume you are a slave or a prostitute. Like, wtf???
@@drago3036 Yeah... well that just kinda shows how damaged his view of a woman is. Not really sure how one arrives at such a point of view but i'm gonna go ahead and say it was probly his parents fault.
When I heard the description of her character, I was thinking on the lines of a Greek Goddess, who no mortal could resist, or Galadriel, who seemed to stun the Fellowship with her beauty. Or Angels from Iego.
I don't think this DM knows who those even are...
She would turn the heads of NPC's for sure, but I bet this guy had them say cringy things, that just made the player uncomfortable.
Unfortunately, the dm was unable to think of her in a "awe inspiring glowing beauty of soul/spirit" and had npcs think of her as a prostitute.
Its really sad tbh. God help the dm to see true beauty.
Imagine taking months to think of the twist of a dragon being a different color
In dnd it’s a huge deal
@@firelordeliteast6750 But is also something that takes like, 5 seconds of thought, no?
Never played before so idk all the nuances to it honestly
yeah lol it's like "oh i know! the *red* dragon was actually an *orange* dragon who had a little too much fun with paint! haha i'm a genius!"
@@101retardnation A dragon’s color determines it’s morality, tendencies, abilities, and ideals. A metallic dragon is a much nicer thing to meet than a green one
@@firelordeliteast6750DnD is racist af.
If someone guesses your plot twist, good! It means you're writing a coherent narrative and your twist isn't an asspull!
Imagine being part of a DnD group and one day your DM tells you all "I randomly found this streamer on Twitch and I'm going to DM her and see if she wants to join our game". Personally, I'd find that really, really weird. Unless everyone else in the group was also recruited the same way, which is also really weird.
Well, one of my players is someone a player of mine met on ReddX's server and just up and invited. It thankfully worked out and she's been fun to have around, but definitely a weird way to recruit!
Or you could tell : I've met this person, she's interested in playing, are you okay with it ?
The GM was not trying to help. He was trying to use OP and her Character to roleplay his own sexual fantasies, and angry that she wasn't bending to that. And the incident with the King was basically him throwing a tantrum at her for rejecting his fictional-but-not-really advances. If I were her, I would've jumped ship long ago. Or at the very least called him out publicly, in the hopes that the other players would take her side and give him the boot. But hopefully now that she's had enough, things will get better for her.
Players: "So is this where the story is going?"
DM: "Wow jolly good guesses you guys!"
Players: *looking smug*
DM: "But you did not figure out one thing."
Players: "What's that?"
DM: "The 20 Tarrasque ambush happening right now, roll initiative"
So this DM got angry at their party for figuring out the plot twist, was very opinionative about the women at the table's choices , gave unsolicited nor needed advise , and also sent unsolicited pictures of himself to one of them?
Call me crazy, but it sounds like he has a big yet fragile ego. And strongly hints that he might be an incel.
Leaving would be the best choice, though I feel for her not wanting to leave because of the players, I am very sorry she has to put up with that.
I think when storytellers get mad at their audience for not being "fooled" by their story, it's just because they're dissapointed they couldn't "outwit" the players. The thing is, if you're creating a plot-twist, or a mystery, the audience is *SUPPOSED* to be able to guess it!
Don't let your fragile ego get in the way of delivering a competent narrative. If someone guesses your twist, or mystery, it's because they actually bothered to think about it, and follow your clues!
It's like a making a videogame and get mad because players are beating the final boss
As a wanabe writer just the title of this video makes me cringe. Dude, if people are able to guess your twist that just means that you laid out the propper groundwork and foreshadowing. Storytelling isn't a competition you're trying to win, it's an experience you're trying to share.
There was a group of people thqt thought good storytelling was about subverting the watchers expectations even at the cost of the story. They were the writers for the last season of Game of Thrones. I don't think I need to remind anyonr how that turned out.
I have trouble foreshadowing without spoiling stuff. I give either too much info or too little info.
And even then, you can make it so that they're right... but also wrong at the same time.
DnD isn't a story and running it as one misses the point entirely.
With too much or too heavy groundwork and foreshadowing, a plot twist is not a plot twist. It's just the plot.
The point of a plot twist is that you aren't supposed to see it coming. A good plot is a good plot, and good plot can contain predicted not-twists, but a plot twist getting predicted just means you did a bad job writing a plot twist. A bad job with your forshadowing.
Frankly its better to have no foreshadowing at all instead of foreshadowing that gives it away, unless the twist isn't meant to be a twist, just the plot.
I intended to have my Tiefling Paladin hide their face as a big reveal that they were a Tiefling later on but someone critted on an investigation check session 1 and occ said they planned to use it as blackmail leverage later on and I got really upset that my big reveal got ruined right out of the gate so I spoke to the DM and got their permission to change it that my character's secret was that they were actually a woman disguising herself as a man with a deep voice and everything along with being a Tiefling. Ended up being the best character I've ever played.
That‘s actually a really great idea to keep the mystery going. Respect! It also shows that you‘re not afraid to try different ways of playing, or with your own sexuality being compromised by your character‘s (somehow…?). „The safer to travel, mylord.“
@@ArDeeMee I avoid playing female characters normally because I want to avoid the Neckbeard stereotype of being a creep. I also make sure to shower before every session, shave, keep my anime talk to a minimum, not be a murderhobo that tries to justify everything with "It's what my character would do.", and roll to seduce any female npcs that we come into contact with.
@@Yojimbo16 That‘s good to hear. Women are just people, play your women characters as if they were actual people, and that‘s enough.
The tiefling paladin sounds really interesting. What was her reason for hiding (after the change-up) as a man? Did her order know, or did she act ‚male‘ specifically to be allowed into the order? Did she ever learn to trust and relax around her party, or was she always on edge? Or, and I hope I don‘t overstep your boundaries here, was ‚she‘ actually a trans-male, aka female body but male mind?
In the end, anything goes as long as you enjoyed playing her. =)
@@ArDeeMee I hadn't thought about it since my original plan was just "Hide the fact they're a Tiefling" and when it went up in flames no pun intended, I had to think up on the spot why they would hide their face just so I can still have a reveal later about their identity.
I chose to play a Tiefling Paladin as a joke from the start that I went as far as naming them "Ox E. Oron" (Oxymoron) and for the first session only I would go up to PCs and NPCS and ask them "Have you accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior?" in the Christian Bale Batman voice. DM told me if I was going to do that, I would at least use a god from the DnD Lore so I went fine. "Have you accepted (Dnd God Here) as your Lord and Savior?"
@@Yojimbo16 That‘s hilarious! I mean, just how does a Tiefling even become a paladin? They are literal devil-babies, right? ^^
Honestly, I did a dream twist on purpose to my players before. I wanted to test an encounter but didn't reveal it was a dream at all. It lead to a extreme battle, a player betrayed another but it was story-perfect and everyone was shocked by how crazy it was. It ended up being a tpk but when the dream part was revealed and everyone remembered everything the dealing with some of the decisions made.
Same. My players have come to fear the dream plane of existence. I tell the players at the start its a dream sequence. Does it have any point on the current arc no. But I have been building this up from the start. The more they remember the dream plane the stronger hold the dream plane has on the player.
There's a puzzle/mystery writing trick for RPGs I've seen floated around where you listen to the players' speculations and then pick the one that makes the most sense and run with it. I'm of the opinion that you shouldn't only do that. Have some ideas of how to lead the party along, but if their guessing around the table sounds better or cooler than what you came up with, then run with that instead. Be open and flexible and the players will feel so smart for having 'figured out' your mystery.
Now, this story. I got real pissed when the OP ended the story with "The others are staying because this only happens with me and the other female of the group." Then they're just as awful as the DM because they're enabling his shitty behavior and not calling it out. OP is best leaving that whole group behind because holy crap. That's why it went so long without issue, because everybody else is just going along with the mysoginistic DM's BS.
I take it as a compliment when someone guess my plot ahead of themselves. That means that someone is paying attention and know me well enough to know what I plan and how I write things out.
As someone who absolutely loathes the term “incel” and thinks at this point, it’s an overused buzzword and used against men/women that don’t deserve the label more often than against ones that do…yeah, DM’s definitely an incel.
Gotta agree with you. Incel is a jackass term that insults both the target and the user. (The target for being critically socially incapable, the user by saying that the thing that is most valuable about themselves is between their legs) And yeah, it somewhere right behind racist as a term that has been made meaningless through overuse.
With all that said, that motherfucker has all the symptoms of the worst kind. To make it worse he is in his late 30's. It's bad enough coming from a teenager, but at least a teen will usually grow out of their jackassery. By your thirties though that is not jackassery born of ignorance. That is the stench of decades of failure from a person incapable of an honest self assessment.
I haven't really seen it used incorrectly outside of this one time some rando called somebody an imcel for saying a woman that was harassing workers was rude
Hates the word incel...okay...in a world full of racists, sexists, homophobes and generally bigots you are bothered by the word incel... Good job SJW 💩👍 60 years ago you probably wouldve said you dont like people calling others racist, because it is "overused" since you obviously dotn have enough critical thinking and empathy to see glaring problems in our society... Ew Miselle
I'm a dm, play with close friends/family. I love when my players figure out what's going on and get an advantage overall. It's a struggle for me but its part of the game. Sometimes they guess things that are more interesting to the game and I incorporate those, because its...... wait for it.... more fun.
Also, everyone take a shot for basically telling a someone to smile more.
Honestly, one of the best parts of being a DM is seeing the players scramble to figure things out. Whenever your players have a big guess for the plot, just give them a devilish grin whether it's right or wrong. It will drive them CRAZY not knowing the answer, and seeing basically reinact the Pepe Silvia bit with your plot is one of the best things you can get as a DM.
I have a party of players who often guess some of my plot twists, one player in particular comes to mind. But you know what? They don't succeed in guessing ALL of my plot twists. Your players guessed your big reveal ? Oh well, you'll get them with the next one, or the one after that, because no DM worth his weight has just one plot twist for his whole campaign (except maybe a one shot).
Answering the beginning question before post rolls: I would play it cool, tell them maybe, create a red herring for them to chase, and then let them simply forget their guess. Later, when they discover they were right all along, it becomes a fun "I knew it!" moment for the group. They feel smart, but they still weren't totally sure until they were supposed to be.
The feeling of "Oh shit, I actually got it right!" is just as good as having the plot twist not being guessed at all IMO, it can even be better some times.
Players guessing a plot twist is honestly a sign of a good twist, it shows that the DM included lots of hints and little things that pointed towards it. The worst kind of plot twist is the type where none of the twist makes sense in the story up to that point.
The wildest thing to me about incels is how absolutely self assured they see about their world view. Between this guy and some others I've seen they speak their deranged views so confidently they seem to think EVERYONE thinks like them.
Also the women over thirty have "baggage" thing comes from Coach Redpill, a conservative UA-camr who mistakes multiple camera angles for a personality trait.
Its the complete lack of empathy they have. They cant imagine that everyone else doesnt have the same shit perspective they do.
i remember looking at a bunch of incel forums via youtubers poking fun at them. based on what i've seen it's more that incels tend to surround themselves in an echo chamber that basically tells them that it's not their fault they can't find someone while at the same time pulls them down when they try to make a positive change in their life.
which is why the further you go the harder it is to get out.
"Who mistakes multiple camera angles for a personality trait." This is the best thing I've read all week.
@@CommanderWiggins thanks! I just find his seeming obsession with multiple cameras very strange. It comes across like a gimmick he uses to disguise the fact that he's a boring asshole.
And this is why you:
1. Don’t use tropes.
2. Have backup plans in case the party catches on too soon, which still makes sense.
3. Have backup plans in case the party switches alignment on you, which still makes sense.
That's tough
Tropes are just backwards looking coda for common trends in storytelling. It's not a question of avoiding tropes, it's not making the tropes just sit there by themselves and doing nothing (interesting) with them.
We wouldn't expect a painter to paint with no paint, but we'd also deride them (mostly) for just putting blobs of color on the canvas and saying "Well, that's what it is".
Tropes Are Not Bad. They’re tools.
@@Dreigonix Agreed. Tropes are good for making characters and events clear. Character is mean, kick a puppy. Character is Tsundere, keep bringing up “it’s not because I like you, it’s just…” And so on.
But if you want a plot twist, which literally means “an unexpected development,” the tropes are things to avoid. Tropes make things expected, the well known setup to a common payoff.
@@Gazing-09 This isn’t hard to do.
1. If you know the tropes yourself, you know what to avoid or dial down when making the setup.
2. DMs should plan for bad dice rolls on ability checks. History, Arcana, Survival, etc. All these can change player knowledge or even the situation. Don’t plan on having the perfect omniscient party, because they will fail. But also plan for a party that is, so you can give them something rewarding; whether or not it was the original intended path.
3. For example: factions in your world. If Kingdom A is against Kingdom B, turning against King A will catch the attention of Queen B.
This happened to me once. I remained silent and gave as little information as possible.Then later when they blew the conspiracy wide open they got to have a "I KNEW IT" moment. Was great to witness tbh
1. If the DM wanted to change it so that his twist wasn't ruined why didnt he just make it a good red dragon that was fucking with them?
2. "We don't want to leave because the bad stuff isn't happening to us" yeah no they're not nice people they're part of the problem. A wise man once said: "All it takes for evil to win is for good people to do nothing"
Re. 2: I feel that it depends on how aware they are of the problems. If they don't understand the extent of it, they may get a bit of a pass. OP did say a lot of this was the DM sending her messages privately. I do completely agree that if they do know and they're not supporting her, it's shitty and they're not good friends or good people. Likewise, if they don't stand up for OP and call the DM on his bs when she explains the situation.
@@BlueTressym I mean sure that's fair but to me the wording "This isn't happening to me/us" sounds like they're being told about some bad stuff and aren't willing to confront it. It's fine not to have a dog in the race but when it's happening in your group you should have one.
nvm after going through the end bit again it sounds to me like at the time of posting they didnt know any specifics and only knew that the 2 females were having bad experiences of the dm/campaign. Can't fault them for not knowing
I usually change the plot if a player's theory is way better than what I have planned, just because I LOVE the "I knew it" reaction
This DM is a nightmare. I've dealt with several like him, unfortunately. One in particular TPK'd us all because we weren't exploring a dungeon in _exactly_ the way he wanted us to.
I remember one comment made when Overly Sarcastic Production's Red did a video on Plot Twists, where she said that it isn't bad if someone successfully guesses a plot twist. If they do so, that means they understand your world and story well enough, and that you've also successfully explained and conveyed the story and world to them.
Guessing a plot twist isn't a bad thing.
Even the players discussing possible twists shows how invested in the story they are. Plus the joy they would have felt about getting it correct.
If the players guess your plot twist and ruin the game, don’t punish the characters with tpk, they did nothing wrong! Tpk the players, ya dummy!
It's not surpizing that a DM like this threw a trantrum over his plot like he did. 2 things about writing is proven here; 1, if your plot relies on the twist then don't use that as the crux of your story, if it only takes one support to knock it down then look back on it and think about it. And 2, A predictable plot does not make a bad one. Anyone who thinks that, either side of the story see stories more for the tropes than the writing.
"Heh heh, that's me!" ProZD reference! I gotcha, critcrab!
Sometimes, my players guess a plot development incorrectly, but their guess is so cool that I straight up pivot to it.
Other than the DM being way too aggressive about the players figuring out a plot twist, his incel behavior isn't excusable. Especially with the hypocrisy ("Woman who aren't married by age 30 have baggage" "you're too young to marry, besides you'll likely cheat on him for someone with a lot more cash"). There is a difference between a literal incel (someone who wants to have sex but hasn't) and this type of incel. I hope the other players just don't know how bad a person he is and will leave after OP reveals it.
Nah, that's pretty much the whole of what incels are. Hateful, mysoginistic, lonely guys who blame the rest of the world for their own shortcomings.
That’s pretty much Incels in a nutshell, have you ever been on a TaylorTheFiend video? It’s basically middle aged men talking about how Women are “Used up” past the age of 25, how all women cheat and how they only won’t money and good looks. People do genuinely think like this…
I believe when they say "literal incel", they don't mean as in someone who literally is part of the incel community, but as in someone who literally is involuntarily celibate, aka hasn't had sex, but not voluntarily so.
@@RasmusVJS that's not an incel then, that's just a virgin which isn't even bad, being an incel is waaaay worse than just being a virgin
Love the Plot Twist advice in there -- my experience as well, and I nearly always cringe when I hear DMs changing their story because of a "guess" being correct.
When your players figure out the plot twist, it means you've done good and they've done good. You know what else it means? Opportunity to reward your players with *Bonus XP*!
Being the DM does not put you in an adversarial role against the party, though you do play the antagonists, thats just a part of your job. As DM you are the story teller and plot driver, the referee.
DnD is about fun, making bad choices, delving into the unknown, and making good friends. You might even kill a few dragons along the way.
Meanwhile I'm sitting over here listening to my player's theories and sometimes taking notes so I can steal the odd twist that is more interesting than mine or sometimes having their assumptions make the story because sometimes I wing it, or sometimes change the twist to something close to their interesting or fun guess so they go the sometimes more hype "Oh man I almost got it."
Even though is important to have something before hand, you can't force your players to follow that, focus more on the journey rather than the end goal.
I dunno if the later stuff was related to the dragon thing. Since he found her on Twitch and invited her to the group... he may have been interested in her and was trying to play out the fantasy.
I think she's got the right idea to open the curtains and leave. If the group is worth knowing then they will stay in touch without the GM.
My plush crab shipped today!!
NICE!
I’m grateful to have a DM who listens to their players and lets us theorize and guess as we wish! I’ve guessed plot points outside of my own character’s arc loads of times, and even if they’re right the dm will roll with it until the huge reveal, which makes me feel so wonderful inside, like I had the big brain all along! It’s never fun to have such a spiteful person running a campaign as this story tells, but Crit’s right, you don’t gotta deal with those kinda people! Give it some time, you too will find your tribes 🧡
Person: *sees through my plot twist in my story*
me: Shit. I'm that obvious?
Me: *guesses friends' entire storyline of an idea*
Friend: Uhm... No... Not at all! Eheh
Me: oh you poor thing, let me help you. I'm sorry I'm so blunt
Thank you for acknowledging men's issues. Incels are truly sad, toxic people but most men are NOT incels. It's true that we don't build ourselves up by tearing others down.
You know, stories like this make me realize why I am the "forever DM". I don't even consider myself a particularly good DM, but there's a little difference: I just LOVE when people can guess my twists, or surprise me and force me to improvise because they solved a problem not in the "intended" way. It makes me realize that my players (and friends, ofc) are actually invested in the story. I love it. If you want to be the DM and don't accept being surprised by your players and having to write or rewrite some parts, you missed the point of being the DM.
Here I am listening to my players and thinkjng
"That would be a pretty good twist, I am stealing that"
11:05 - 11:32
I want to build you a giant crowned crab-shaped statue for this little speech.
👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏
Everyone out here talking about how "if they guess you're twist that means you're a good DM" that aint always the case - but regardless a good DM always rewards players being dedicated to the team.
It doesn’t necessarily mean you’re a good dm, but they do have a point that it means you are writing well
@@pv1612 but what if your writing is vanilla and predicatable?
I think it's better if the players aren't certain and just throwing theories out there and just so happen to guess correctly. If all the players are just "Yeah it's definitely this" then maybe spice up your story telling
@@pv1612 There's a big difference between "All the groundwork was laid out correctly and the players picked up on it" and "Everyone has seen this 1,000 times before and was expecting this from the word go".
I once DMed a game where the BBEG was a Lich that grew up in an orphanage and turned to dark magic out of morbid curiosity. A normal story that everyone sees coming is that the boy in the orphanage become the Lich, but what actually ended up happening was that the orphan created the Lich to act as a lightning rod to actually further his own agenda in the shadows while everyone else was occupied.
Only time I've seen a dream twist done well is in just roll with it tbh because these magical nightmares have been a thing for forever at that point and it was planned from the start to be this and all the players exept the one that dreamt the dream were in on it. They basically entered a thief's den they were planning to enter a couple episodes ago and got captured, it got revealed that their mastermind was one of the characters old friend who is now an incredibly powerful enemy and they got killed off in very brutal ways only for the character to wake up right after, it was rlly well done tbh!
If a player guess a plot twist but no one else did I would play it through the same way and give them a inspiration point when the plot twist happens.
little side note: if the other players in the campaign are unwilling to believe or listen to the fact that you and the other women in the party are being mistreated, you might want to rethink your involvement with them. its complicity at best.
Except she hasn't talked to them and most of the stuff has been private, so they don't know about it....
Also don't forget about the factor of privilege. It's easy to overlook what one doesn't have to deal with personally and most guys don't have to deal with this in our personal lives - makes us kinda oblivious sometimes. Point it out; decent people will become allies real quick. To clarify, this isn't an excuse to be oblivious, just an explanation why it happens.
I feel like having players guess correctly about the twist, but not be sure about it, is a sign of very good GMing. Twists shouldn't come out of nowhere, and if there are enough hints to lead a really smart player to that possible solution, then you should probably be proud of your storytelling.
i am a beginner Dm. One Day one of my players, who is more experienced, guessed my plottwist. Sure, i was a bit disappointed but only said "maybe but try not to meta-game, if you know something". it worked out and well.. i am still learning
Crab's wisdom on letting players feel good about guessing a twist is a good thing. One of my players recently guessed corectly an important twist not to be revealed until the way end, so instead of changing it or getting mad like this DM did, it instead pleases me he was paying attention and that my story is working. The best reward you can give a player paying attention to the plot and making a correct guess is letting them know once the time comes, they had been right all along.
Frankly, if your fellow players aren't on your side when you talk about sexual harrassemnt and being belittled for apparent misogynist reasons, they are accomplices to the issue. Yes, unfortunately our community of roleplayers isn't a shining beacon of 21st century (or sometimes even 20th century) attitude towards "Others", but the vast majority (I hope) are still decent human beings that would treat you with respect and be on your side when you face a tough interaction.
They probably didn't realize it was happening. Remember, a lot of it was private, not in game.
She did say that she was GOING TO explain why she was leaving. Coupled with the whole "pulled into private chat" bit, they legitimately not know any of what was said to the two women yet.
There was a time I was playing a murder mystery style game with an ensamble cast and an isolated setting out on a boat. I managed to solve the first murder (there were gonna be more but I stopped that) within the first session, basically ending the game right off the bat and I felt like a real detective. It was great
As a DM It has happened MANY times that they guess exactly what is going to happen in the next session.
What do I do? Let it happen!
It feels much better to say "I knew it" than "wow I had no idea".
Let them have the satisfaction of being right, whats the big deal!
I've had players guess my plot twists before and I've found that it's usually a really gratifying experience for the players, they love that they were able to work out where the story was going before they're given all the pieces, it makes your players feel smart and a lot of time actually improves investment in the story, to the point that now when I'm running a game if my players start theorizing and I like some of the theories they're throwing around I'll try and find a way to work them into the story to give them that "aha I fucking called it moment" which makes people feel so good
The only way they could have known for sure that it was "actually" a copper dragon, is if the DM messed up when they guessed it and said they got it right.
So, if he did that, and then they meet it and it's "actually" a red dragon after all, it's the DM who was feeding them the metagame... Could have just kept his mouth shut.
Not that I'm surprised, as the story goes on... His... Lack of tact, deportment, or so much as basic human capacity aside; it's really not hard to either let players guess it right every now and then or quietly change things behind the DM screen without them being any the wiser if you really need to... Or, rather it's not hard for DMs who don't have "baggage" as this particular troglodyte might call it.
So this has happened to me before. It all depends when it is. If it is literally session one and they guess it from one clue, it is early enough to change some details and keep it a surprise. Honestly, I'd be proud. It means my players are really smart, or I just need better mysteries lol.
It's all fun and games until your with a person who can predict most outcomes. Hubby and his friends have gotten it under control with me but the way they watch and play games is them either pausing to break down the plot or actually Predicting next lines of dialog. So they try to hardest to keep out of game predictions to a minimum and let their characters do the work on trying to figure it out. I'm thankful for having them all, even if they are crazy people who have to sit away from everyone in the movies so they can whisper about plot, plot holes, and predicts so no one else has to hear.
Your spiel about the player's reaction to finding out they were right really resonated with me.
I remember DM'ing a campaign really early on: the human and elf kingdoms had waged a serious war a little over 100 years ago, and while they were beginning to reconcile, there was still a lot of mistrust between the nations. The town the players were in was part of the human kingdom, but as a gesture of cooperation, the elf kingdom was given a small bit of territory on the outskirts of the town where they could formally station diplomats, nobles, the like. It was kinda a legal grey area where the neighborhood was still TECHNICALLY part of the human city, but the elf government had limited judicial and executive authority in the region. It was really more of a symbolic gesture than a meaningful political one, but it was an important symbol. The human side of the town had a MASSIVE gang problem, and the party went to the mayor to see if they could get some help. However, the mayor refused, saying that she couldn't just send a bunch of randos in to deal with the gang (their blood would be on her hands, bad PR), she wouldn't send soldiers with them since she didn't really have any reason to trust the heroes (they were only like level two, and had at this point exactly one small adventure under their belt, they had no renown yet), and she wouldn't ask for help from the elves because it would undermine her authority. At best, she'd be seen as weak by her people. At worst, the elves would use this as leverage to extort political or economic power in the human side of town.
Immediately, one of my players went "she's totally the gang leader".
Admittedly, I deflated a little at him IMMEDIATELY guessing the twist. I thought I'd really done a good job making a very logical cover story, she wasn't outwardly giving off any signs of being malicious: how'd he immediately guess it? The rest of the party didn't believe him, and he admitted he had no evidence, but "he just had a gut feeling." Nevertheless, he played along, and the rest of the arc played out normally: they took down the gang, the mayor was... surprised, but "pleased", and the group moved on. I was a bit dismayed, but the reveal was planned for later and I had managed to play off my annoyance for awhile.
However, it all paid off. When, weeks later, they were talking to the lord, and he revealed that their investigations had concluded that the mayor was tied to the gang, and the player jumped out of his chair and yelled "I KNEW IT!", it all became worth it. In retrospect, him having guessed it was SO much more fun for the party: everything from the party going "no way man" while the player insisted she was evil, to the constant distrust the player had around her, to the exuberance at the reveal: it was so much more fun than if it had been the surprise I intended it.
Take things in stride, it's more fun.
Geeze, if your players guess the plot twist, let them feel smart! And hell, if your players come up with a BETTER idea than the one you had, you change the plot you had in mind so they can be right and give them the satisfaction of having called it!
Look, if a DM wants to do the "it was a dream" trope, then at least make it an interesting one. Its the same as qith the "you meet in a tavern" trope, theres nothing actually WRONG with it, but HOW you gandle it is extremely important. In this case, adding onto it being a dream as more of a foresight divination of the consequences instead of figuring out another way of handling the situation, or that theyre in a doctor Strange "ive come to bargain" loop type of deal could have been much better and not such a cop out.
As for retcons though, if it were to happen id honestly be happier with just the quite literal "ok things got out of hand last session, so were just going to retcon that and have a do over. Cool? Cool". Instead of teying to make it narrative and part of the story.
Personally, I'm super proud as a GM whenever a player figures out a twist, not only because it shows that they are invested in the story and paying attention to the adventure I crafted for them, but also because I know it feels really, really good to put clues together correctly and my main goal as a GM is for my players to have fun. I'm not trying to outwit or frustrate them.
im currently playing my first dnd game ever and my best friend is DMing for the first time
shes an amazing writer and has a beautifully laid out world and story that we are playing through
she sat and watched in amazement as me and the rest of the players, tinfoil hat style made a whole diagram piecing together what we got of the story so far to figure out hidden things and plot twists
she handled it very well cus she was super happy to watch us become so invested that we spent an our out of game graphing and ven diagraming her entire story
Omg I love that you said "this guy is the worst side of the 'men's rights' movement"! Too often I see people just lump these weird creeps into the same group with the other WAY more respectful men's rights activists. As someone who got into the men's rights community (I also was able to recover easier from an abusive relationship thanks to that community), I deeply appreciate that you don't see people like that DM as that communities spokesperson. ❤❤❤
Wait, he spent "months" working on a twist as simple as, 'a dragon is disguised as another dragon'?
Also, I agree with the OP; the DM in the story is definitely a complete incel.
As a DM, I have always been of the philosophy that 'The Player Are Always Right' when it comes to investigations. I make 'floating' encounters and plot points that can be slotted for wherever they decide to explore.
I may have a villain or destination in mind, but if the group independently come to the conclusion that they want to go somewhere else to look for clues or that NPC B is the mastermind and their hypothesis makes logical sense while also not disruptive to the main narrative, then they got me. That, uh, that was my plan all along. Good job figuring out the mystery.
It is just greatly rewarding for everyone and makes the world-building more collaborative which, in turn, makes them MORE invested in the story.
Most of our good NPCs in my group actually came from the players coming up with a twist. DnD is a not only a game, but a collaborative story that both the DM and Players formulate. And sometimes that's from an idea the DM didn't originally had but decided to implement because of how brilliant the twists can be.
My current dm loves plot twists, and us players like to guess them before they happen. Sometimes we’re right, and sometimes we’re wrong, but she always gives us the same response, a comically maniacal laugh and a “hmmmm maybe.” If we’re right, great! We solved the thing! Sometimes we even get a luck point for it once the twist is actually enacted. If we’re wrong, no worries! We all love a good shock and we tend to prepare for whatever we can, so it’s never a huge deal. I know each table functions differently, but I feel like this has gotta be one of the better way for everyone at the table to handle an accurately guessed plot twist.
I ran a campaign for over a year, it began with them joining an adventuring guild. The guild had 2 leaders an Aasimar and Tiefling (Yin/Yang parallel) both being retired adventurers, who were both ancient dragons in disguise. The Aasimar Bronze and the Tiefling being silver. I'm sure 1 or 2 of my players figured it out. But they all seemed to enjoy the moment of big reveal.
I chose silver dragon for Tiefling and dropped lots of hints about it. Her being very sociable and having her hoard being personal belongings from people through her life. Because most of these items aren't going to have much of a value to other people. So she had her hoard on display in her office at the guildhall.
I've had a player guess a whole camapign subplot from my very first clue before.
Later the same player worked out the affiliation of an enemy "guard" from literally the first reaction taken with their modified statblock and armour type.
I'm not even mad, im impressed. Having a player who engages with the story and world enough to make predictions is the GM/worldbuiilding equivalent to asking the cook if there's seconds.
oh man, the afterlife arc can be one of the most useful setups for future adventures, the amount of exposition that can naturally come to dead people is super amazing if you handle it right.
also, a marvelous way to have a character continue in a campaign when they aren't sure they'll be able to come back to a game. you can essentially 'adventure' with them alone, maybe toss out a few die rolls to have them take care of some stuff the party doesn't even know exists, keep them abreast of certain goings on from beyond the grave, and if it turns out they can come back, they can be brought back by a god, someone accidentally wishing for it, etc.
DM actually hit her with the “you should smile more” …Bold choice
My first campaign, about 15 years ago, culminated in a number of related-but-distinct plot points converging in an epic showdown. The PCs had successfully baited the BBEG, without knowing for certain _which_ of the powerful entities _was_ the BBEG, into showing up to a field they had prepared. In truth, before that session, I hadn't 100% decided _which_ of the possibilities it was, but as we were discussing the players' field-prep (mostly planting a multi-tonne magical bomb using several collected artifacts), they were speculating about who was going to make the play for the magic macguffin. I listened to their theories, and picked the least outlandish (the "reformed" demon wasn't actually so reformed).
Point is if your players are speculating, don't be afraid to change your plans, including adopting it if what they think up is _better_ than your existing plans.
David Benioff and Dan Weiss actually play D&D? No way!
I had a player once guessing a plot twist and roleplayed it in a way they got to skip a boss fight.
We still mention it to this day and remains one of my friends best one shot moments.