In the writings of the Church Fathers every time they spoke about heresy and heretics, they were describing Protestantism. Protestantism is all over the place on the different positions. You can’t speak about the Protestant position on something, except perhaps in the form of a negative, like they’re contrary to the Catholic Church, they’re contrary to the Roman Pontiff. But the methods, the means, by which Protestants arrive at their theological conclusions were common in virtually all the heresies and the heretics that the Fathers talk about. First, they separate from the Catholic Church and deny its authority, and the way you end up there is the same path to heresy. The Catholic Church has always been the one true church. It’s always been the vast majority of Christians. But this phenomenon of heresy and schism has been a part of the church’s pilgrimage on earth from the very beginning. The Fathers talk about it constantly. And the heretics in the ancient period were ending up with all sorts of different positions just like Protestants do. St. Vincent of Lérins talks about that. He said, “The reason we need the authority of the Catholic Church is because if you don’t, you’ll have as many interpretations of Scripture as you have interpreters.” So the second one is heretics interpret Scripture on a new and novel principle and deny being bound by any apostolic and ecclesial tradition. This is something that really blew my mind because St. Athanasius of Alexandria, many Protestants claim to love him. But then, when you actually read his writings, it’s consistently the Arians who are using a Sola Scriptura-like argument, where St. Athanasius is appealing to the constant teaching of the church. He says in one work, basically, “Who learned this in his catechesis? This has never been taught before.” And so he appealed to tradition quite openly. He appealed to the ruling of a pope, Pope Dionysius, in the 3rd century. He said, “This is not a new thing.” He said, “The Council of Nicaea has now condemned it, but it was condemned by all,” a very interesting phrase, basically affirming the papacy. He said, “This was condemned by all, by Pope Dionysius.” So the third one was that based on this novel principle, they concoct a new set of beliefs around which they form their own sect, which they erroneously claim is Christian in the true faith. So this was something that many of the fathers talk about, that all the heretics wish to be called Christian. And there’s even many parts where they will say basically that some of the heretics want to be called Catholic. Many Protestants claim, “Well, we’re Catholic, we’re Catholic,” little C Catholic. But the fathers roundly deny them that possibility. They literally say the exact same thing of ancient heretics. They said, “They wish to be called Catholic, but whenever anybody asks where the Catholic Church is, none of them will point to their own congregations because no one will know what they’re talking about.” So literally, the exact same sorts of arguments some Protestants will make about, “Well, we’re little C Catholics,” a version of it was being made by ancient heretics all over the place. You see that St. Augustine specifically talks about this. St. Cyril of Jerusalem specifically talks about this. So that was another thing. Fourth, to justify their heresy, their primary tactic is to cite and quote Scripture as much as possible so that their new religion sounds “biblical.” This is something St. Vincent of Lérins explicitly mentions. He says, “Do heretics quote Scripture?” He’s like, “They do with a vengeance.” He says, “There’s nothing of all their errors that they won’t drip with Scripture to make it seem like it’s true.” He said, “They’re basically dripping their poison with honey, the honey of divine language.” Fifth, they were often named after the men who started them. This is a big one because there are many Protestants who will say proudly, “I’m Lutheran,” or “I’m Calvinist,” or “I’m Armenian,” or whatever it may be. Sometimes they’ll be by the category, a theological category like, “I’m a Baptist,” or “I’m a Methodist,” or whatever. But most of them are named after the names of the men who founded them. So again, reading from the Fathers they were often pointing this out. This is exactly what Protestants do. And again, they try the, “Well, we’re a little C Catholic kind of thing,” but that doesn’t work for the reason already stated. So the name that they will be known by is the founder of their sect. And so that was known. Sixth, their beliefs and definitions of their own heresies constantly shift and change, whereby the certainty and unity of faith to which we are commanded by the apostles is subjected to endless argumentation. So this is the great poison of heresy as it makes the faith seem uncertain. And you see this in Scripture in Acts 15, the apostles refer to the Judaizing heretics, saying they are trying to unsettle your minds. They make that term, “unsettle your minds.” And so that’s what all heresy does. It seeks to unsettle the mind of the Church. And so the church has to respond by issuing an authoritative condemnation and explanation and articulation of the faith, which it’s done with all the councils, various papal definitions and whatnot. So again, it was another similar method, another similar phenomenon of heresy itself that is all over Protestantism. Basically, is not normal Christianity, the Fathers are roundly saying, “No, this is a key characteristic of heresy.”
St. Isidore of Seville in the early 600’s was widely regarded, in the words of 19th-century french historian Charles Forbes René de Montalembert, as "the last scholar of the ancient world, Basically says something to the fact of, “All the heretics disagree violently with one another, but they’re united by a same hatred of the Catholic Church.” So a Protestant would say like, “Whoa, that’s us.” I can’t get a straight answer from all my Protestant brethren who I love very much, I can’t get a straight answer on baptism, I can’t get a straight answer on sacraments, I can’t get a straight answer on various moral questions or the governance of the church and whatnot. But they all agree that we’re not part of the Catholic Church.
The problem that protestants have is the same as Mormonism based on the following 3 arguments. (1) Mormons (Latter-Day Saints, or LDS) believe that after the death of the last Apostle, there was a “Great Apostasy.” Priesthood authority ceased, doctrine began to degenerate, and the true Gospel was lost (necessitating its “restoration” by Joseph Smith in the 19th century). (2) The vast majority of protestants reject multiple doctrines that were believed unanimously by ancient Christians, beginning with the very first Church Fathers who were discipled by the Apostles themselves. Specifically, these protestants reject three key doctrines: a. Baptismal regeneration (how we become Christians); b. Apostolic succession (how the Church is governed); and c. The sacrifice of the Eucharist (how Christians worship). (3) Therefore, whether they realize it or not, most protestants believe in a “Great Apostasy” theory of history that is virtually identical with that of the LDS. If all Christians of which we have any record-including the disciples of the Apostles-were unanimously wrong about how we become Christians, how the Church is governed, and how we worship as Christians (the “Three Doctrines”), there is no more fitting description of this massive falling away than a “Great Apostasy.” This necessarily means that creatures (the protestant “reformers,” or the LDS’s “prophet” Joseph Smith) outperformed the Creator, since their “gospels” and “churches” have now in one form or another lasted for centuries, whereas when Jesus originally established them, they fell apart immediately. In the writings of the Church Fathers every time they spoke about heresy and heretics, they were describing Protestantism. Protestantism is all over the place on the different positions. You can’t speak about the Protestant position on something, except perhaps in the form of a negative, like they’re contrary to the Catholic Church, they’re contrary to the Roman Pontiff. But the methods, the means, by which Protestants arrive at their theological conclusions were common in virtually all the heresies and the heretics that the Fathers talk about.
St. Ignatius of Antioch - a disciple of the apostles - an extremely early witness to Peter and Paul being in Rome, talks about the structure of the church with bishops and priests and deacons, which is still the Catholic Church to this day. He talks about them succeeding directly from the apostles. He talks about the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, in an extremely real way, for lack of a better term, just very physical even. He’s saying that the heretics of those days were denying the real presence of Christ. In his letter to the Church of Rome, it was very different from the other letters. He’d said some wonderful things to all the churches that are very highfalutin language. But in the letter to the Church of Rome, it was the only church he spoke of commanding other churches. He said, “I don’t issue orders to you because I’m not Peter and Paul.” He was also an extremely early witness to Peter and Paul being in Rome, which some Protestants, to this day, will try to cast doubt on. Every Protestant sect denies the apostolic succession, real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, the sacrifice of the Eucharist.
1 Tim 4:1-2 Now the Spirit explicitly says that in the last times some will turn away from the faith by paying attention to deceitful spirits and demonic instructions through the hypocrisy of liars with branded consciences. 2 Tim 4:3-4 For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine but, following their own desires and insatiable curiosity, will accumulate teachers and will stop listening to the truth and will be diverted to myths. 2 Pet 3:3 Know this first of all, that in the last days scoffers will come [to] scoff, living according to their own desires Jude 1:18 for they told you “In [the] last time there will be scoffers who will live according to their own godless desires.” [This is the substance of much early Christian preaching rather than a direct quotation of any of the various New Testament passages on this theme (see Mk 13:22; Acts 20:30;] Mk 13:22 False messiahs and false prophets will arise and will perform signs and wonders in order to mislead, if that were possible, the elect. Acts 20:30 And from your own group, men will come forward perverting the truth to draw the disciples away after them.
Amazing information!
It was a pleasure to listen to Dr Needham.
Love Dr. Needham. He's the best.
Wonderful talk. Thank you for sharing!
Excellent address.
Excellent lecture ! Loved the way Dr Needham cheekily read the quote about the new birth preceding baptism. 😅
In the writings of the Church Fathers every time they spoke about heresy and heretics, they were describing Protestantism. Protestantism is all over the place on the different positions. You can’t speak about the Protestant position on something, except perhaps in the form of a negative, like they’re contrary to the Catholic Church, they’re contrary to the Roman Pontiff. But the methods, the means, by which Protestants arrive at their theological conclusions were common in virtually all the heresies and the heretics that the Fathers talk about.
First, they separate from the Catholic Church and deny its authority, and the way you end up there is the same path to heresy. The Catholic Church has always been the one true church. It’s always been the vast majority of Christians. But this phenomenon of heresy and schism has been a part of the church’s pilgrimage on earth from the very beginning. The Fathers talk about it constantly. And the heretics in the ancient period were ending up with all sorts of different positions just like Protestants do. St. Vincent of Lérins talks about that. He said, “The reason we need the authority of the Catholic Church is because if you don’t, you’ll have as many interpretations of Scripture as you have interpreters.”
So the second one is heretics interpret Scripture on a new and novel principle and deny being bound by any apostolic and ecclesial tradition. This is something that really blew my mind because St. Athanasius of Alexandria, many Protestants claim to love him. But then, when you actually read his writings, it’s consistently the Arians who are using a Sola Scriptura-like argument, where St. Athanasius is appealing to the constant teaching of the church. He says in one work, basically, “Who learned this in his catechesis? This has never been taught before.” And so he appealed to tradition quite openly. He appealed to the ruling of a pope, Pope Dionysius, in the 3rd century. He said, “This is not a new thing.” He said, “The Council of Nicaea has now condemned it, but it was condemned by all,” a very interesting phrase, basically affirming the papacy. He said, “This was condemned by all, by Pope Dionysius.”
So the third one was that based on this novel principle, they concoct a new set of beliefs around which they form their own sect, which they erroneously claim is Christian in the true faith. So this was something that many of the fathers talk about, that all the heretics wish to be called Christian. And there’s even many parts where they will say basically that some of the heretics want to be called Catholic. Many Protestants claim, “Well, we’re Catholic, we’re Catholic,” little C Catholic. But the fathers roundly deny them that possibility. They literally say the exact same thing of ancient heretics. They said, “They wish to be called Catholic, but whenever anybody asks where the Catholic Church is, none of them will point to their own congregations because no one will know what they’re talking about.” So literally, the exact same sorts of arguments some Protestants will make about, “Well, we’re little C Catholics,” a version of it was being made by ancient heretics all over the place. You see that St. Augustine specifically talks about this. St. Cyril of Jerusalem specifically talks about this. So that was another thing.
Fourth, to justify their heresy, their primary tactic is to cite and quote Scripture as much as possible so that their new religion sounds “biblical.” This is something St. Vincent of Lérins explicitly mentions. He says, “Do heretics quote Scripture?” He’s like, “They do with a vengeance.” He says, “There’s nothing of all their errors that they won’t drip with Scripture to make it seem like it’s true.” He said, “They’re basically dripping their poison with honey, the honey of divine language.”
Fifth, they were often named after the men who started them. This is a big one because there are many Protestants who will say proudly, “I’m Lutheran,” or “I’m Calvinist,” or “I’m Armenian,” or whatever it may be. Sometimes they’ll be by the category, a theological category like, “I’m a Baptist,” or “I’m a Methodist,” or whatever. But most of them are named after the names of the men who founded them.
So again, reading from the Fathers they were often pointing this out. This is exactly what Protestants do. And again, they try the, “Well, we’re a little C Catholic kind of thing,” but that doesn’t work for the reason already stated. So the name that they will be known by is the founder of their sect. And so that was known.
Sixth, their beliefs and definitions of their own heresies constantly shift and change, whereby the certainty and unity of faith to which we are commanded by the apostles is subjected to endless argumentation. So this is the great poison of heresy as it makes the faith seem uncertain. And you see this in Scripture in Acts 15, the apostles refer to the Judaizing heretics, saying they are trying to unsettle your minds. They make that term, “unsettle your minds.” And so that’s what all heresy does. It seeks to unsettle the mind of the Church. And so the church has to respond by issuing an authoritative condemnation and explanation and articulation of the faith, which it’s done with all the councils, various papal definitions and whatnot. So again, it was another similar method, another similar phenomenon of heresy itself that is all over Protestantism. Basically, is not normal Christianity, the Fathers are roundly saying, “No, this is a key characteristic of heresy.”
St. Isidore of Seville in the early 600’s was widely regarded, in the words of 19th-century french historian Charles Forbes René de Montalembert, as "the last scholar of the ancient world, Basically says something to the fact of, “All the heretics disagree violently with one another, but they’re united by a same hatred of the Catholic Church.” So a Protestant would say like, “Whoa, that’s us.” I can’t get a straight answer from all my Protestant brethren who I love very much, I can’t get a straight answer on baptism, I can’t get a straight answer on sacraments, I can’t get a straight answer on various moral questions or the governance of the church and whatnot. But they all agree that we’re not part of the Catholic Church.
The problem that protestants have is the same as Mormonism based on the following 3 arguments. (1) Mormons (Latter-Day Saints, or LDS) believe that after the death of the last Apostle, there was a “Great Apostasy.” Priesthood authority ceased, doctrine began to degenerate, and the true Gospel was lost (necessitating its “restoration” by Joseph Smith in the 19th century). (2) The vast majority of protestants reject multiple doctrines that were believed unanimously by ancient Christians, beginning with the very first Church Fathers who were discipled by the Apostles themselves. Specifically, these protestants reject three key doctrines: a. Baptismal regeneration (how we become Christians); b. Apostolic succession (how the Church is governed); and c. The sacrifice of the Eucharist (how Christians worship). (3) Therefore, whether they realize it or not, most protestants believe in a “Great Apostasy” theory of history that is virtually identical with that of the LDS. If all Christians of which we have any record-including the disciples of the Apostles-were unanimously wrong about how we become Christians, how the Church is governed, and how we worship as Christians (the “Three Doctrines”), there is no more fitting description of this massive falling away than a “Great Apostasy.” This necessarily means that creatures (the protestant “reformers,” or the LDS’s “prophet” Joseph Smith) outperformed the Creator, since their “gospels” and “churches” have now in one form or another lasted for centuries, whereas when Jesus originally established them, they fell apart immediately.
In the writings of the Church Fathers every time they spoke about heresy and heretics, they were describing Protestantism. Protestantism is all over the place on the different positions. You can’t speak about the Protestant position on something, except perhaps in the form of a negative, like they’re contrary to the Catholic Church, they’re contrary to the Roman Pontiff. But the methods, the means, by which Protestants arrive at their theological conclusions were common in virtually all the heresies and the heretics that the Fathers talk about.
St. Ignatius of Antioch - a disciple of the apostles - an extremely early witness to Peter and Paul being in Rome, talks about the structure of the church with bishops and priests and deacons, which is still the Catholic Church to this day. He talks about them succeeding directly from the apostles. He talks about the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, in an extremely real way, for lack of a better term, just very physical even. He’s saying that the heretics of those days were denying the real presence of Christ. In his letter to the Church of Rome, it was very different from the other letters. He’d said some wonderful things to all the churches that are very highfalutin language. But in the letter to the Church of Rome, it was the only church he spoke of commanding other churches. He said, “I don’t issue orders to you because I’m not Peter and Paul.” He was also an extremely early witness to Peter and Paul being in Rome, which some Protestants, to this day, will try to cast doubt on. Every Protestant sect denies the apostolic succession, real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, the sacrifice of the Eucharist.
1 Tim 4:1-2 Now the Spirit explicitly says that in the last times some will turn away from the faith by paying attention to deceitful spirits and demonic instructions through the hypocrisy of liars with branded consciences.
2 Tim 4:3-4 For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine but, following their own desires and insatiable curiosity, will accumulate teachers and will stop listening to the truth and will be diverted to myths.
2 Pet 3:3 Know this first of all, that in the last days scoffers will come [to] scoff, living according to their own desires
Jude 1:18 for they told you “In [the] last time there will be scoffers who will live according to their own godless desires.”
[This is the substance of much early Christian preaching rather than a direct quotation of any of the various New Testament passages on this theme (see Mk 13:22; Acts 20:30;]
Mk 13:22 False messiahs and false prophets will arise and will perform signs and wonders in order to mislead, if that were possible, the elect.
Acts 20:30 And from your own group, men will come forward perverting the truth to draw the disciples away after them.