Love your summation that the "Final" in Final Fantasy refers to breaking loops and repeating cycles in the respective stories and worlds, very insightful
I mean, it further’s Sakaguchi’s original intent, in that it was his “Final” attempt at creating something new… for which he was going to leave game development all together after the OG. He just happened to strike gold.
They were going bankrupt. This was literally the "Final" Fantasy game. It wasn't some symbolism for breaking the cycle.... Sakaguchi explained that the game was his personal last-ditch effort in the game industry and that its title, Final Fantasy, stemmed from his feelings at the time; had the game not sold well, he would have quit the business and gone back to college.
@@EvoSchecter that was part of it, but as he says in another interview, “any word starting with the letter F would’ve sufficed.” They wanted to go with “Fighting Fantasy” originally. Thematically, though, the word “final” works best.
Breaking the cycle actually blew my mind. So simple, and yet so relevant. The comments about FF creating the standard for RPGs throughout the decades is also true for the remakes and the spin-offs. ff tactics redefined what that style of game could be. FF III on the DS defined that style for mobile gaming. Even the pixel remasters are showcasing how different each game is while still keeping the roots of what make these games so enjoyable.
I have never played a Final Fantasy, and every time I ask my friends who do play what Final Fantasy is, they can never give me an answer that makes sense. Thank you for making it make sense.
I started gaming in 1989 and was mainly an action/fighting/shooter type player. I used to watch my friend play RPGs, including Final Fantasy, and criticize him for playing “kiddy” little kids games. One day, in the early 1990s, at that same friend’s house, during the early years of the SNES, and out of complete boredom, I popped in Final Fantasy 2 for the SNES and started a new quest. About 30 minutes in, I was fully immersed in that world, and it automatically clicked in. I looked at my friend and told him, "I need to borrow this game" and took it home that night. The story and narrative truly take you on a rollercoaster ride. After a few days I returned the game back to him and told him it was one of the best games I’ve ever played. It was also the game that awoke in me the love for RPGs. After, I automatically purchased FF3 on the SNES upon it's release. Now, almost 25 years later, I still play the same game every few years, including FF3, and enjoy it just as much. Yes, I know nostalgia plays a part here, but If that’s not a testament of how amazing those games are then I don't known what is.
As a long-time obsessive Final Fantasy fan, I find this a well and legit answer to the question of what Final Fantasy is. Thank you for the video, I enjoyed watching
Here is what I have formed as what FF is as a series, with my entrypoint being FFT:A back in 2006, when I was only 7 years old, and so you could picture my perspective where I wasn’t swayed or made aware by any external input from series veterans until 2013, which was the time where internet access had become more accessible within our community where I found out about this tedious 20-year-old dispute: Each installment in the Final Fantasy series represents a unique creative vision and design philosophy that is indicative of the time period it was conceived. The developers behind the series often strive to innovate, experiment, and deliver fresh experiences with each new entry. As a result, it's important to recognize that the direction and features of one game in the series do not necessarily dictate the trajectory of future games. This approach allows for diversity and keeps the franchise dynamic. If there is one thing people need to wholly understand and accept is that for more than 20 years Final Fantasy is an “alliterative anthology RPG series” in the sense that it borrows and incorporates elements from both previous entries and other games outside of it. They often blend various gameplay mechanics, storytelling styles, and thematic elements, infusing them with its own distinct flavor and creative vision. Additionally, the series maintains continuity and familiarity through recurring themes, motifs, and iconic elements across different games, creating a shared mythology. This form of interconnectivity allows for both innovation and homage to the franchise's legacy, providing veterans a sense of familiarity while newcomers intrigued to play previous games
This is a really compelling approach! I LOVE what you're saying. I think when you grow up with the series, you really see the series growing up with you-- and you really nail the details here.
@@profnoctis still vividly remember the deluge of pure stubbornness whenever something is attempting to do something different, and to this day, we’re still here listening to the same tune. I wonder when will people learn to take the hint?
I've been a Final Fantasy player since 1998 and have retroactively played all of them and it was only today, 25 years later that I realised this theme. You legend. Keep making videos
YOU fucking get it. I couldnt put it into words myself but ive always been able to feel what a final fantasy game is, and ive always said that ALL of them feel like a final fantasy story. Subscribed. Thank you for coming up with the words that i couldn't!
I like this video because you accurately talk about how the series evolves and try something different over time. I find that a lot of fans in the series have a set standard of what makes a "real" Final Fantasy game or not. I think you find the core elements of each game so well while also being open to new ideas and going over Sakaguchi's main philosophy of reinventing each installment was the icing on the cake. Great video!
Not all Final Fantasy games I play but I've seen some of their story and I like it especially when I play Final Fantasy XV for the first time. Very nice video, my friend.
insightful video. everyone judges this game based on what the franchise means to them but hardly anyone asks what it meant to the original creator of the franchise and how each developer try to honor that legacy. it kind of reminds me of the death of the author in a way.
Hello there. I just found your channel today. This was a very well written and edited video. Well done! I appreciate the work you put in here to look at the question of "What is Final Fantasy?" through a more academic lens using Ontology. However, I'd like to offer some rebuttals and point out that things that we now consider as "properties" of FF were very much core "elements" of the series when the creator, Hironobu Sakaguchi was still in charge of the FF team. From reading developer interviews of Sakaguchi, it seems clear to me that he very much had a vision of "what makes an FF game" that he allowed to be changed as he slowly ceded creative control of the franchise over to his successors. (Mostly to Yoshinori Kitase.) And I don't mean to use this as a way to gatekeep or "prove" what is a "true FF game" or anything. Just to look at the development history to present a different view of the question. For example, if we asked the question of "Is command/menu based combat an 'element' or 'property' of what makes a Final Fantasy game?" back in the 1990's, we would pretty much have to answer "element". We know this is true because of developer interviews after FFIII on the NES. Back then, there was a desired by some creators on the FF team to push FFIV into a more "action" style with it's combat in order to take advantage of the new SNES hardware. However, Sakaguchi made the decision that FF should remain as a menu/command based system. This was likely due to Sakaguchi's previous NES games he made for Square, which were action games that were mostly financial failures. He also famously said while creating FFI, "I don't think I have what it takes to create a good action game, I think I'm better at telling a story." His bias back then seemed pretty clear that FF should not be an action game. Meanwhile, series veteran Hiromichi Tanaka, who worked with Sakaguchi on FFI, FFII, and FFIII on the NES, was allowed to leave the FF team and lead the Secret of Mana team instead, because he wanted to use the SNES' power to create larger pixel characters and a more action styled game. The lead programmer and designer for the FF team, Nasir Gebelli and Koichi Ishii, who were critical to FF's early breakout success were also allowed to leave the FF team to work on Secret of Mana instead. With Gebelli gone from the FF team, Hiroyuki Ito was promoted from "debugger/sound effects" on the NES FF titles to the main Battle system designer for FFIV. He created a compromise with the ATB system, which allowed a real-time element to be added to the combat, but still kept it as a menu/command based system. The core interaction method of the of the combat did not change, but was iterated on in order to make it more challenging for the developers and players. This shows that Sakaguchi was willing to make some changes at the suggestions of his team, but he still had a specific criteria for what the main series FF 'formula' needed to be. Then later in the PS1 era, Square hired Yasumi Matsuno and his team from Quest. Matsuno's experience was in creating strategy based games (Ogre battle and Tactics Ogre) so Square hired him to make a hit strategy game for the company. From what we know today, Sakaguchi has always had great respect for Matsuno. But back then he decided that the strategy game would need to be called "Final Fantasy: Tactics" because the gameplay style did not match what the mainline FF series was known for. But they still wanted the FF branding on the game for marketing purposes after the breakout hit of FFVII. Also, Tetsuya Takahashi originally pitched his draft of Xenogears to be a mainline FF game, but the story content was considered too dark by the company execs to fit the series. So rather than trying to incorporate a watered down version of that story into an FF game, Sakaguchi allowed Tetsuya Takahashi to leave the FF development team (he worked on FFV and FFVI) to go write and direct his own game that didn't fit the FF mold. So we saw multiple times that Sakaguchi allowed his veteran creators to fulfill their creative visions, but sometimes that required them to step away from the main franchise if thier project was drawing "outside the lines" of FF too much. It's only after Hironobu Sakaguchi resigned from Square in 2001 that mainline Final Fantasy games started really experimenting with command-action hybrid combat systems (FFXII and FFXIII) and then full action-RPG combat systems (FFXV and FFXVI). The company also started making sequels to FFX, FFIV, and FFVII as soon as he left. And he very famously said that he didn't think Final Fantasy games should have sequels and that he "hated" direct sequels in general. Yoshinori Kitase even said back when he was promoting FFVIII in 1998 that: "A Final Fantasy without a world map isn't a Final Fantasy game." Obviously he felt differently as the Director of FFX just 2 years later when he decided that a world map with Chibi-style characters didn't fit the new realistic graphics style they were using. But before FFX, any analysis of the FF series would have to identify the world map + airship exploration gameplay as a core element of the series' gameplay formula, since it was used in all 9 FF games from 1987 to 2000 (regardless of graphics). But now it's considered one of the series' "properties" after the creators that succeeded Sakaguchi decided it was no longer required. All this is to say that the issue is very complex! It all depends on how you look at it. And I don't mean to say all this as a way to gatekeep the later FF games as not being "true FF" or whatever. (FFX and FFXII are actually 2 of my top 5) But it's pretty clear that some of the core "elements" of the series were shifted into "properties" after the series creator no longer had the final say on things. Which, depending on how you look at it, could be considered either good, bad, or both. Anyway, that's my view of how the series has evolved over time. Thanks for the video. It was a great watch.
Hey, thanks for your input. I think your points are pertinent to the discussion, especially in allowing for context. A few thoughts: I think you’re absolutely right in saying certain elements have become properties. I would say for the first 10 entries, turn based battle would have been an element. And for Sakaguchi, that was probably the case. However, his admission that he likely wasn’t able to make a good action game should be noted- it’s a limitation of his ability, not necessarily the franchise. I think hearing his endorsement of the recent games speaks to that to a degree. I also want to say, the ontological analysis I performed took into account current knowledge- not necessarily isolated eras of the past (sakaguchi’s era). It also didn’t seek to future-proof a definition. In the realm of religion, for example, an ontology of “God” in the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament would produce elements and that might become properties if one opened the discussion up to an inclusion of New Testament/Christian ideology. But, that doesn’t make the ontology of the Hebrew Bible pericope any more or less true. It’s just a narrower scope. So when we are looking at the whole of Final Fantasy, I think we can find some basis in the past (hence my inclusion of the 3 developer quotes) as we reframe where FF currently sits as a franchise. That’s my 2 cents on it though. I don’t disagree with you at all, actually. I also accept that SE has named 16 mainline games “Final Fantasy.” My goal isn’t to determine whether they are right (way beyond my pay grade), but rather what it means for the franchise.
@@profnoctis Thank you for your well thought out response. I think we are mostly in agreement! The FF series has a dedicated following, but we sure are divided in this "what makes Final Fantasy?"question. And I think it's primarily because the older half of us adhere to Sakaguchi's vision and will only allow some minor tweaks to that. While the younger/newer fans and the company itself feel like FF needs to branch out to attract a bigger audience. So it's like we have 2 different fanbases and I'm not sure if there will ever be a title that can unite the clans together. :(
@@dudemcguy1227 I think in some ways you’re right! But I should note- I’m def old guard, born in 1983. Rented FF1 briefly. Played FF4, went back to 1, then to 6. Then caught up on all the rest in 1997-2000 when I got my PlayStation. So, I’m pretty amenable to the changes, but those are what I cut my teeth on!
This video omg idk why it made me emotionnal. This is my favorite franchise and maybe your the first to put the exact words to why I love it so much. Ty for this idk either why UA-cam never putted you in my face I could not resist the sub button
Oh man, That means a lot! Thanks for watching and the sub. This is the first “real” UA-cam video I’ve made. All my others were gameplay exports. So hopefully you’ll see me more as i make new vids!
@@profnoctis im no expert but for a first it was really well made. I liked the edit and the music choices and like i said I really resonate with your core idea. I will keep an eye out !
"You most likely became a fan (of a certain mainline FF) because of a risk or change that might have upset another player." -Jesse Cox Every numbered FF changes and explores different things from the last, and that what I think is the 'unchanging mark' of a true Final Fantasy.
I do agree. The constant is change and adaptation to the culture. Also, he’s definitely speaking to people younger than I am lol. I’ve weathered every iteration and actually loved them all!
This is exactly how I see Final Fantasy. This is what i have been saying for years! The story, lore, and impression the game makes on you. Now whenever a turn based purist or live action bro complain about new games I'm going to point them to your video.
I write alot of my storie about breaking an oppresive cycle and i think i self consciously got that from final fantasy. You just woke me uo to that and now im even more in love with my favorite series. Thank you
tongue-in-cheek meta comment. one day we will break the cycle of final fantasy releases, which will make that last installment the *final* fantasy. great video!
Good video. Story is what defines Final Fantasy. Some so called "reviewers" or "hard fans" missed the plot saying FF16 isn't FF enough. My favorite FF are 6, 10, 14 (Shadowbringers/Endwalker). What do they have in common? They made me emotional for a week after finishing them.
I have been saying this till I was blue in the face. Turned based and party controlled combat are not the defining characteristics that made FF what it was. It was the amalgamation of EVERYTHING working together; but the keys were always story, character, detailed/lived in world with a rich history of lore, and CHANGE!!! FFXVI qualifies and was absolutely fantastic. You were able to say it just a bit better than 99% of everyone else who has tried to explain the same sentiment, including myself. New subscriber and I can't wait to see what you do next.
Hello from neighboring BHAM! Fantastic video! Love how you broke down the series central themes with examples. Not a bad or heavy handed injection of philosophical concepts either. Gotta a be a hit with some students when you breakout the FF examples in class.
Excellent video! Well-thought and well-explained, and you somehow translated a college lecture into a UA-cam gaming video seamlessly. You've earned my subscription, and I can't wait to see what you post next.
Finally had a chance to watch this video and it was very Entertaining while informative! i learned about Ontology and what makes each Final Fantasy game unique and it was great to know how certain properties connect to FF so well! I hope to see more content from you soon Prof! 🙂👌
Ending a cycle is a great way of summarizing it and tying them all back to FF1! To me FF has always been about a group of individuals, sometimes from very different walks of life, joining together to put an end to a violent system/ entity, whether that be imperialism, colonialism, supremacy, persecution, etc. Of course, some go heavier into that theme than others. Even the final bosses are some grand metaphor for those things. In a world where people often feel powerless, providing the player such a “fantasy” can be very validating and comforting.
I really enjoyed this, Prof! I have some follow up thoughts that I'm curious as to some clarity about from your perspective? Hopefully this can help further the discussion, which will likely continue to evolve even as Final Fantasy itself does. First off, I love the ontological approach. You already know that I agree with you on discerning between properties and elements. Where my mind is still confused is where the elements are simply RPG elements. For instance, immersion. We know lots of games can be immersive (and maybe I'm just curious to hear more from you on how shared elements between FF and other games still remain worthy of mention for this question). There's also battle systems. That does seem to be a FF element but is it because it's an RPG genre series? Chocobo Racing isn't an RPG and I don't think either of us believe it's a Final Fantasy, but I can't stop wondering what would happen should the "change" that FF so embraces took a mainline numerical FF to the extreme of genre-shifting. A jump between subgenre, TBRPG to ARPG or MMORPG, is one thing. What would we say if FFXVII was a side-scrolling arcade shmup with no story and no battle system in the RPG tradition? I appreciated the Sakaguchi quote and its insight. I think a lot about the distinction between a new series being created by one man's vision, identity, and beliefs (with help) vs a brand being run by a corporation who selects new creative visionaries to develop it. I wonder if there'll come a time when we can explore that distinction and explore a creative vision that grew into a corporate brand. As I like to say, anyone can write a Middle-Earth story. Only Tolkien could writte Tolkien stories. Likewise, anyone can write a Final Fantasy story. Only Sakaguchi could write Sakaguchi stories. Nuance demands that we don't go so far as to say "Final Fantasy stopped being Final Fantasy when its original creator left". I'm not on that boat. I think the original creator is VITAL to exploring what a work IS, but I don't think it's the only deciding factor, particularly where ownership is involved, however corporate. Finally, breaking the cycle. I love that. Honestly, it's the bit that I could not immediately think of an example for in other RPGs. I'm sure it exists! I'm not sure that it exists in the kind of consistency that FF displays, at least in its numerical mainline form. Spinoffs may muddle that more, I dunno. Of course my mind immediately went to Chrono Trigger, breaking this temporal cycle of the timeline leading to Lavos, this inevitability. But that's a story for another day. I suppose I just want to know how you'd respond when pressed about basic RPG elements both defining FF and also being shared with other RPGs?
GREAT question! I would say, the properties are necessary in that they emphasize the elements. So, if the elements don’t exist, including the properties doesn’t make a thing uniquely Final Fantasy. That’s why Chocobo GP isn’t a Final Fantasy game, but rather, FF-Adjacent. Properties have to emphasize the core elements of a thing, otherwise they are mere set dressings.
@@profnoctis I like your emphasis on not dismissing properties outright but reducing their primacy instead, so it's elements first and then properties provide the flavoring. In Lewisian terms, to borrow from his book On Stories, I think he'd call that texture. I know that Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy are both RPG series but they have very different textures/properties!
Final Fantasy 7 & 8 were the first games I played after getting my PS1. I first played FF8 on the Pizza Hut PlayStation demo disc and later bought FF7 for my birthday. I think I was around 10 years old.
Been a fan of the franchise since FF7 back in the 90's, I never had to ask myself what makes a Final Fantasy a Final Fantasy because just like myself, the game has been evolving throughout the years and I'm just flowing with it, no point in wasting time and energy trying to control it or transform it into something I want it to be when I can just simply enjoy it and appreciate it for what it is, and holly molly the valuable and beautiful memories said mindset has given me, not only with FF but games in general, I wouldn't want it another way. And I know for sure FF16 won't be different, I'm pretty sure I'll love it as well, just like FF15. I bought a PS5 just cuz of FF16 (and of course the upcoming FF7 Rebirth) and it arrives tomorrow, I cannot wait!
That’s how I feel, too. I don’t try to argue it- just enjoy it. This video is meant to explain the franchise to my students at Bama who aren’t gamers but need to know the history for context for class. I’m excited for you to play 16! I’m about halfway through it right now and I love it. Curious to hear your thoughts!
I hope Jesse Cox watches this. He also did a great video on the current "not my final fantasy" which was a bit different. Both of these are great though to show that while all FF games strive to break some sort of negative cycle in their worlds, the game devs themselves also break from the past versions as well and try to use the best technology available to do so.
Nice video, I'm looking forward to whatever you do next, honestly it's remarkably well put together for your first go at this! I'll throw in my 2 cents on the question of defining what a Final Fantasy is, and then ask a question about applying your criteria to games, with specific examples. Please don't think I'm bashing your hard work, I think it's interesting to think about stuff like this. Anyway, this was rattling around my head at work. So, before I'm too tired, I'll try to recall everything and reply to you. I hope this isn't too long. First, I wonder how useful it is to arrive at a provable definition of what a Final Fantasy is. I don't think it's an exact science, so I don't know if it's even possible, but let's assume it is. Would it benefit the discussion of FF, or other titles? I think most of the time I've seen people invoke this argument, especially recently with FF16, the claim that something is, or isn't, a Final Fantasy seems to be a way of saying it doesn't meet a person's expectations of what a FF game should be. In that case, I'm not sure being able to authoritatively point to the dictionary definition of what a Final Fantasy game is will help. They're making a different point, and I think it often hinges upon the elements you mentioned. I think those may be the strongest identifiers for a lot of people, as without this flavouring, their view of FF may not be very different from other JRPGs, it needs the preferred battle system, to be iterative, the Dragoons, the Bombs etc. The other way I see this used is when they're trying to imply that not being a Final Fantasy game, is somehow a strike against the title in question, or I guess the inverse where being a FF title grants it extra prestige. This is something I feel strongly about. The title shouldn't have any bearing on the quality of the game. I think trying to preserve the FF name, by only applying it to a small section of the series, is putting more importance on the name, than the games they venerate. Anyway, that's part 1, I don't know if it's possible, or desirable to prove what FF is. I think that part of a discussion is a bit of a distraction from the game itself, and the game in question is far more interesting to evaluate and discuss. Onto the my next bit. I'm curious what you'd make of games that aren't part of the series, but match everything you've said here. I guess the biggest one that springs to mind is Bravely Default, but Live A Live also has so much that could be called Final Fantasy and I'm fairly certain there are plenty more. It's just that Bravely Default goes even further, it has so many of the properties and elements, from familiar spell names, jobs, equipment, the structure of progression through the game. It even hammers home the idea of breaking the cycle, perhaps more than any main FF title, by actually making the player live the cycle, then to top it off, in a stroke of brilliance the game literally brings the player into the final battle. It really is us, and our friends, breaking the cycle! Of course, perhaps this is a very clever flex, showing the developers know what Final Fantasy is all about and are paying the ultimate homage. After all, this game is a successor, in spirit, to a Final Fantasy spin-off. In Japan it even plays with the FF abbreviation. Or is it even harder to pin down what a Final Fantasy is, other than a brand encompassing just about everything under the sun! So is Bravely Default actually Final Fantasy? Oh wait.. it doesn't have gil. Is gil the secret? lt was money all along! That's enough from me. In summary, I don't know if defining Final Fantasy helps much, and what do you think about other titles that share so much in common with FF?
Man, this is a great comment. I don’t think defining Final Fantasy is any more or less important than to finding anything. But it can be helpful as far as classification is concerned. That is really the root of ontology, in my opinion. When I give this 75 minute lecture in my class, I am speaking to gamers, Final Fantasy fans, and students who have never played a modern video game. So I have to start with what a Final Fantasy is in that respect. This is not to say there isn’t distinctive, overlap, but I think all of these together help make up what we are talking about when we say “final fantasy.” ultimately, there are going to be tropes that extend beyond the franchise to other games, and I think that that is where the genre of something comes out. A Japanese role-playing game might be a central element, but the spokes might be the various games and franchises. Final fantasy and dragon quest, for example. In any case, the purpose of defining what final fantasy is as a franchise is, I think, very helpful in understanding what you are getting when you play a game. At one point, final fantasy could be synonymous with a type of battle system. That is not the case anymore. So as a franchise, we’ve had to broaden it up. I’ve tried to quantify that in some discernible way, but it is incredibly subjective, as you can imagine. I kind of liken it to Mario. Mario games are about saving the princess. But mainline Mario games are typically going to be about saving the princess with a mushroom kingdom aesthetic. They reinforce the uniqueness of the story that they are telling. And that story is being retold again and again. Same with Zelda. Final Fantasy, I argue, is telling a pretty similar story 16 different times. Now, with bravely default and live or live, I think these are spiritual successors. Some of these games may have even been in development as a Final Fantasies (like Chrono Trigger and Xenogears). So I think there’s a difference between being a core installment of the franchise and inspired by the franchise.
God that was a good video. Congrats!! I'm so glad you finally released something like this after you mentioned it on twitter. I'm looking forward to your next videos keep up the great work!
This just proves my idea that every FF is an FF, wether people complain or not. I mean I dont like mmos, so I never liked those games, but I would never argue they are not FFs just because of that, but youll see peopel argue that practically any FF after VI is not an FF because they dont like that particular game for whatever reason *eyeroll* when you said 3 notes can bring sadness and all my first tought was the first notes of to Zanarkand which never fails at hitting me right in the feels, but Aeriths theme is also up there so thats fair. You ever saw a compilation of people reaction to when they played her theme in the remake? cause maaaan...that really shows the power of it truly also, that reaction to the music having a choir made me laugh lol
huuuuuge video! as a long time final fantasy fan, i was always wondering what it is, that made me feel like "yes, thats definitly a ff" just by seeing a trailer. thank you for your insight. take my upvote and my sub :)
My buddy and I made the "breaking the cycle" connection in high school when FF7 released. Although we referred to it as "The final fantasy of that world".
In some ways it did! I’m a professor who teaches a class on religion and FFXV, so I do a lecture on this topic. When I attended the LA FFXVI prelaunch event with other content creators, they encouraged me to put one out. So I adapted the lecture into this… which will also serve as part of their homework. Thank you so much for watching!
Final fantasy game: a game that pushes the boundaries of player immersion through graphics, sound, and world design (using familiar and beloved properties) in a narrative that is in the FINAL iteration of an oppressive cycle. First off, great video. 1- I think the "pushes the boundaries" part is a very big burden to place on every FF game, by that definition, if a certain FF game is OK in the graphics department, then it's necessarily not "pushing the boundaries of player immersion THROUGH graphics" which seems like a silly reason to exclude a FF game from being a FF game. 2- Additionally, "narrative in the FINAL iteration of an oppressive cycle" can literally refer to any "good guys beat oppressive bad guys/institution" which is the premise of many many games. A "cycle" can be a set of one, it need not be some type of time loop where attempts have been made many times in the past. Making a game like cyberpunk pass this test. 3- This leaves us with "familiar and beloved properties", this begs the question, how many of those properties are required? and what are the NECCESARY properties required?(if any) Is Cid a necessary property? because FF1 lacks him. If you make the bar TOO LOW like needing just one property, then other games might pass the test despite clearly not being final fantasy by having something akin to crystals for example, or just accidentally having a character named cid. I'm obviously being pedantic and nit-picky but I do think trying to precisely define what makes a FF a FF is like trying to discern when grains of sands become a pile of sand. UNLESS, you go with the obvious definition of: it's whatever game included in the franchise named "final fantasy". With that said, I've only played ff14 so idk what im talking about lol
Hey thanks for watching and engaging. I’ll try to talk about each. 1) the goal of setting the standard for narrative based games in immersive presentation and gameplay is wildly subjective for the developer and intrinsically contextual. But I think the intent is important. For each system, a FF is going to push the boundaries of what is possible. For this reason, I highly doubt a mainline FF will ever again return to pixel format. That’s a style of the past, not the future. And FF, as a prime element, is going to push toward the future of immersion. 2) the end of an oppressive cycle COULD be part another franchise or story. But it would simply be a property of that story, likely. Whereas, when you buy a FF game, you (likely) know that there will be some cycle that must be broken. Zelda’s core element is saving the princess, though many other stories do this as well, for example. 3) How many properties are necessary is, again, subjective. I think for the most popular and successful entries in FF, a LOT of the staples are there. For instance, there are no crystals (except save points) or moogles in 10. There are no chocobos or Cid in 1. These are irrefutably “Final Fantasy,” though. I think the properties give an important FF aesthetic, which is what people want. And hey, based on your experience, you do see a ton of FF history in 14! I’d encourage you to play some others too.
I really enjoyed your perspective on this. I think we should look at it less as "what Final Fantasy is" and instead "what Final Fantasy can be" because 16 really shows that it can be anything! Definitely subscribing :)
@@profnoctis The pleasure was mine. While I adore the series in its highs and its lows, I’m proud to say I can write an extended thesis on FF7’s organic world-building as well as finally clear up the Sephiroth-Jenova debate. Can also elaborate on FF6 character case studies. Those two games are exceptionally special to me, and how the series has evolved as a whole has shown me just how special the group at Square really are and have been for all this time.
@@profnoctis Would have to do some light digging for some of them, but I’d be happy to find and share whichever topics you find the most interesting my friend. Can even use them in a vid if you like them, cuz what matters most to me is more people seeing, hearing, and feeling how fully realized and relatable these universes actually are. Feel free to keep in touch. Really did enjoy your video and will be a subscriber for future content from here on out 👌🏼
@@miki49 I’d love to think more on this. Send me some resources and I’ll consider it. Also may want to hit me up on Twitter bc I check dms and comments much more there
Really enjoyed this and a lot of great editing choices. I do wonder if there is some more nuance to what kind of battle system is elemental to FF. I certainly don't think it's turn-based vs action (which is just a property, as you mention). I only wonder since most games have some kind of combat system, so just mulling over if there's a descriptor for the kind of battle systems in FF games that cut across them all in a similar way that you did for Immersion. I actually (great shame) have yet to play 1-6 so it's hard for me to say, but based on the ones I've played, I would probably argue that it's something along the lines of "Flexible Battle System." Even FF16 emphasizes flexibility in terms of being able to choose which Eikon skills to map to your specific build to Clive and then encouraging you to be flexibile with how you use those skills (like all of the crazy combo videos I've seen of people combo'ing abilities in ways I never thought of)
You’re totally right. I like the flexibility of being able to play how I want to play. Magic or melee, heavy hitter or more defensive. That seems to be an element throughout the series. This is a phenomenal peer-review point you’ve made, and I’ll be including it in my in-person lectures! Thank you!
I have one criticism. We don't end the succession of witches in Final Fantasy 8. The game ends with Ultimecia passing on her powers to Edea, thus repeating the cycle again.
I think it is ended in the future. When Ultimecia is killed, travels to the past and passes her power to Edea, it means the succession doesn't continue after the time of Ultimecia. All generations from that point onwards will have no more sorceresses.
I think you can find some more elements, and more rigorously define (refine, I guess is what I mean) the existing ones you mentioned. For instance, growth or "coming-of-age" seems to be one, along with or perhaps under an umbrella of "growth".
I could agree with that. Though I wonder if that might be more of a property. Hmm. Either way though, I tried to be pretty selective, so I’m sure my list isn’t comprehensive or exhaustive
FF16 is traditionally Final Fantasy in all but the combat, which is basically a first for the series. FF16 to me is about what Final Fantasy can be, but also what it is, because the game is filled to the brim with homages and mainstays in the series.
I’ve never got into Final Fantasy. (From aesthetics & story, to systems & gameplay, it’s looked pretty confusing over the years.) Hopefully you can help me understand what it’s all about. 😅
I did a History of Final Fantasy panel at a few anime conventions. I found that the games up through XIII followed a three beat pattern - Innovation, Experimentation, followed by Maturity. Each time a game comes out on a new console, they do in fact set the standard for what an RPG needs to be on that generation of hardware. But by the third game on that console, they've figured out how to squeeze every bit of performance from the hardware, which is why the last game on a console looks even more impressive than the first one. I, IV, VII, and X all made a splash with the newest graphics. II, V, XIII, and XI played with battle systems and concepts to do something different. III, VI, IX, and XII pushed their respective consoles to the limit. I remember someone saying after seeing X: "But that is as pretty as it'll ever get." And then XII came out, using tricks they'd picked up developing XI to make XII's graphics and art style shine with their own fantastic style. Things got blurry with XIII-XIV since they were the only ones ever released for PS3, and then XV jumped to PS4, and XVI to PS5, sort of collapsing the pattern. (I blame Kingdom Hearts for this since Nomura had his fingers in way too many pies when they were working on XIII and XIII Versus.)
Hmmm ok. To a lot of people, final fantasy is a deeply mechanical but streamlined turn based rpg made by the direction of hironobu sakaguchi and with music composed by hironobu sakaguchi and deeply rooted in d&d. Lately final fantasy is a story based linear adventure that chases industry trends.
Cynical but understandable. I grew up on FF and I never associated it with its turn based style any more or less than dragon quest. To me, the difference maker was the story and properties. I think there’s a difference in “chasing industry trends” and trying to expand the audience. These stories are good enough to break beyond the traditional JRPG and turn-based crowds. That said, change is hard, and I get that. I wasn’t wild about FF12’s changes. But I learned to love it, and accept that my favorite franchise was evolving in style, but the core remained.
What an amazing video, you did such an excellent job putting a tired old debate to rest in the simplest way! every time a new mainline FF comes out, we have to go through the same old dumb argument “This is not a final fantasy”.. cause everyone’s idea of what a “real” FF is most likely their favorite or their first one, but that’s impossible to achieve because every new game strives to be different, with a new team and new talent behind it, and that’s the beauty of this series! Each new game is a completely new world for you to be immersed in! If you’re going into the latest installment expecting the same experience, whether narratively or gameplay wise all over again as your favorite or first entry, you will NEVER be happy with it… because that goes against what the series tries to do with every new game. Subscribed!
Great video! In short, a FF is always about revolution against oppression, injustice and evil forces that conceil themselves behind political figures. Long live FF.
2/3s of the main series are eerily similar. Almost like they were variations of the same core elements and it wasnt just battle. You can say whatever you want and try to blur the lines. Final fantasy was a jrpg and 16 is not. Hasnt really been since 10.
Lol, not trying to “say whatever… to blur the lines,” so that’s a misunderstanding. Just calling it like I see it. 16 is definitely not a classic JRPG. But I’d say it’s a J-character action game! But it seems Final Fantasy isn’t going to be just an RPG anymore.
Brother, I am sending this video to all four corners of my sphere of influence. This video should be REQUIRED VIEWING.
For my class, it will be! Lol😅 thanks for your kind words
@@AA-bh3bz lol, I mean, it IS the luxury model of the Toyota! I wanted it to be in the same realm :)
Love your summation that the "Final" in Final Fantasy refers to breaking loops and repeating cycles in the respective stories and worlds, very insightful
I appreciate it. That was a fun segment to make
I mean, it further’s Sakaguchi’s original intent, in that it was his “Final” attempt at creating something new… for which he was going to leave game development all together after the OG.
He just happened to strike gold.
@@crowevil4658 and I’m thankful for it!
They were going bankrupt. This was literally the "Final" Fantasy game. It wasn't some symbolism for breaking the cycle.... Sakaguchi explained that the game was his personal last-ditch effort in the game industry and that its title, Final Fantasy, stemmed from his feelings at the time; had the game not sold well, he would have quit the business and gone back to college.
@@EvoSchecter that was part of it, but as he says in another interview, “any word starting with the letter F would’ve sufficed.” They wanted to go with “Fighting Fantasy” originally. Thematically, though, the word “final” works best.
This is pretty much how I've seen the franchise as a whole, to have someone say it out loud in such a clear and concise way was a breath of fresh air.
Really appreciate your kindness. Thanks for watching!
Ok, what the heck dude, this is so well edited! So we’ll scripted, it’s freaking perfect!! Why aren’t you doing these way more?!?!
First of a series, I hope! Thanks, dude
Breaking the cycle actually blew my mind. So simple, and yet so relevant.
The comments about FF creating the standard for RPGs throughout the decades is also true for the remakes and the spin-offs.
ff tactics redefined what that style of game could be. FF III on the DS defined that style for mobile gaming. Even the pixel remasters are showcasing how different each game is while still keeping the roots of what make these games so enjoyable.
I’m glad you liked it! You’re absolutely right about tactics. I didn’t touch spin offs but that one would def apply
I have never played a Final Fantasy, and every time I ask my friends who do play what Final Fantasy is, they can never give me an answer that makes sense.
Thank you for making it make sense.
This makes me so so happy. I’m glad to help!
Fr. I don't understand why they never say it clearly, are they embarassed or what I never get it
"The world you seek is but a fantasy!"
"The only fantasy here is yours. And we shall be its final witness!"
Now thats a final fantasy alright
I started gaming in 1989 and was mainly an action/fighting/shooter type player. I used to watch my friend play RPGs, including Final Fantasy, and criticize him for playing “kiddy” little kids games. One day, in the early 1990s, at that same friend’s house, during the early years of the SNES, and out of complete boredom, I popped in Final Fantasy 2 for the SNES and started a new quest. About 30 minutes in, I was fully immersed in that world, and it automatically clicked in. I looked at my friend and told him, "I need to borrow this game" and took it home that night. The story and narrative truly take you on a rollercoaster ride. After a few days I returned the game back to him and told him it was one of the best games I’ve ever played. It was also the game that awoke in me the love for RPGs. After, I automatically purchased FF3 on the SNES upon it's release. Now, almost 25 years later, I still play the same game every few years, including FF3, and enjoy it just as much. Yes, I know nostalgia plays a part here, but If that’s not a testament of how amazing those games are then I don't known what is.
I adore this story. Thank you so much for sharing. My dad and I rented FF2/4(Jp) one Friday night and I’ve been hooked since.
As a long-time obsessive Final Fantasy fan, I find this a well and legit answer to the question of what Final Fantasy is.
Thank you for the video, I enjoyed watching
Honored for you to say that. Thanks for watching!
Here is what I have formed as what FF is as a series, with my entrypoint being FFT:A back in 2006, when I was only 7 years old, and so you could picture my perspective where I wasn’t swayed or made aware by any external input from series veterans until 2013, which was the time where internet access had become more accessible within our community where I found out about this tedious 20-year-old dispute:
Each installment in the Final Fantasy series represents a unique creative vision and design philosophy that is indicative of the time period it was conceived. The developers behind the series often strive to innovate, experiment, and deliver fresh experiences with each new entry. As a result, it's important to recognize that the direction and features of one game in the series do not necessarily dictate the trajectory of future games. This approach allows for diversity and keeps the franchise dynamic.
If there is one thing people need to wholly understand and accept is that for more than 20 years Final Fantasy is an “alliterative anthology RPG series” in the sense that it borrows and incorporates elements from both previous entries and other games outside of it. They often blend various gameplay mechanics, storytelling styles, and thematic elements, infusing them with its own distinct flavor and creative vision. Additionally, the series maintains continuity and familiarity through recurring themes, motifs, and iconic elements across different games, creating a shared mythology. This form of interconnectivity allows for both innovation and homage to the franchise's legacy, providing veterans a sense of familiarity while newcomers intrigued to play previous games
This is a really compelling approach! I LOVE what you're saying. I think when you grow up with the series, you really see the series growing up with you-- and you really nail the details here.
@@profnoctis still vividly remember the deluge of pure stubbornness whenever something is attempting to do something different, and to this day, we’re still here listening to the same tune. I wonder when will people learn to take the hint?
@@toothfairy7765 like it or not, this series is all about iteration
I've been a Final Fantasy player since 1998 and have retroactively played all of them and it was only today, 25 years later that I realised this theme. You legend. Keep making videos
Thanks, my friend!
Excited to watch!!!! Got my notebook ready Professor 📝📝📝
Thanks, friend!
YOU fucking get it. I couldnt put it into words myself but ive always been able to feel what a final fantasy game is, and ive always said that ALL of them feel like a final fantasy story. Subscribed. Thank you for coming up with the words that i couldn't!
Thank you!!
I like this video because you accurately talk about how the series evolves and try something different over time. I find that a lot of fans in the series have a set standard of what makes a "real" Final Fantasy game or not. I think you find the core elements of each game so well while also being open to new ideas and going over Sakaguchi's main philosophy of reinventing each installment was the icing on the cake. Great video!
I appreciate you! Thanks for watching
Not all Final Fantasy games I play but I've seen some of their story and I like it especially when I play Final Fantasy XV for the first time. Very nice video, my friend.
FFXV had such a great story. I appreciate it, Clintzie!
insightful video. everyone judges this game based on what the franchise means to them but hardly anyone asks what it meant to the original creator of the franchise and how each developer try to honor that legacy. it kind of reminds me of the death of the author in a way.
It’s a lot like the death of an author, yeah
Hello there. I just found your channel today. This was a very well written and edited video. Well done!
I appreciate the work you put in here to look at the question of "What is Final Fantasy?" through a more academic lens using Ontology.
However, I'd like to offer some rebuttals and point out that things that we now consider as "properties" of FF were very much core "elements" of the series when the creator, Hironobu Sakaguchi was still in charge of the FF team. From reading developer interviews of Sakaguchi, it seems clear to me that he very much had a vision of "what makes an FF game" that he allowed to be changed as he slowly ceded creative control of the franchise over to his successors. (Mostly to Yoshinori Kitase.)
And I don't mean to use this as a way to gatekeep or "prove" what is a "true FF game" or anything. Just to look at the development history to present a different view of the question.
For example, if we asked the question of "Is command/menu based combat an 'element' or 'property' of what makes a Final Fantasy game?" back in the 1990's, we would pretty much have to answer "element". We know this is true because of developer interviews after FFIII on the NES. Back then, there was a desired by some creators on the FF team to push FFIV into a more "action" style with it's combat in order to take advantage of the new SNES hardware. However, Sakaguchi made the decision that FF should remain as a menu/command based system. This was likely due to Sakaguchi's previous NES games he made for Square, which were action games that were mostly financial failures. He also famously said while creating FFI, "I don't think I have what it takes to create a good action game, I think I'm better at telling a story." His bias back then seemed pretty clear that FF should not be an action game.
Meanwhile, series veteran Hiromichi Tanaka, who worked with Sakaguchi on FFI, FFII, and FFIII on the NES, was allowed to leave the FF team and lead the Secret of Mana team instead, because he wanted to use the SNES' power to create larger pixel characters and a more action styled game. The lead programmer and designer for the FF team, Nasir Gebelli and Koichi Ishii, who were critical to FF's early breakout success were also allowed to leave the FF team to work on Secret of Mana instead.
With Gebelli gone from the FF team, Hiroyuki Ito was promoted from "debugger/sound effects" on the NES FF titles to the main Battle system designer for FFIV. He created a compromise with the ATB system, which allowed a real-time element to be added to the combat, but still kept it as a menu/command based system. The core interaction method of the of the combat did not change, but was iterated on in order to make it more challenging for the developers and players. This shows that Sakaguchi was willing to make some changes at the suggestions of his team, but he still had a specific criteria for what the main series FF 'formula' needed to be.
Then later in the PS1 era, Square hired Yasumi Matsuno and his team from Quest. Matsuno's experience was in creating strategy based games (Ogre battle and Tactics Ogre) so Square hired him to make a hit strategy game for the company. From what we know today, Sakaguchi has always had great respect for Matsuno. But back then he decided that the strategy game would need to be called "Final Fantasy: Tactics" because the gameplay style did not match what the mainline FF series was known for. But they still wanted the FF branding on the game for marketing purposes after the breakout hit of FFVII.
Also, Tetsuya Takahashi originally pitched his draft of Xenogears to be a mainline FF game, but the story content was considered too dark by the company execs to fit the series. So rather than trying to incorporate a watered down version of that story into an FF game, Sakaguchi allowed Tetsuya Takahashi to leave the FF development team (he worked on FFV and FFVI) to go write and direct his own game that didn't fit the FF mold.
So we saw multiple times that Sakaguchi allowed his veteran creators to fulfill their creative visions, but sometimes that required them to step away from the main franchise if thier project was drawing "outside the lines" of FF too much.
It's only after Hironobu Sakaguchi resigned from Square in 2001 that mainline Final Fantasy games started really experimenting with command-action hybrid combat systems (FFXII and FFXIII) and then full action-RPG combat systems (FFXV and FFXVI). The company also started making sequels to FFX, FFIV, and FFVII as soon as he left. And he very famously said that he didn't think Final Fantasy games should have sequels and that he "hated" direct sequels in general.
Yoshinori Kitase even said back when he was promoting FFVIII in 1998 that: "A Final Fantasy without a world map isn't a Final Fantasy game." Obviously he felt differently as the Director of FFX just 2 years later when he decided that a world map with Chibi-style characters didn't fit the new realistic graphics style they were using. But before FFX, any analysis of the FF series would have to identify the world map + airship exploration gameplay as a core element of the series' gameplay formula, since it was used in all 9 FF games from 1987 to 2000 (regardless of graphics). But now it's considered one of the series' "properties" after the creators that succeeded Sakaguchi decided it was no longer required.
All this is to say that the issue is very complex! It all depends on how you look at it. And I don't mean to say all this as a way to gatekeep the later FF games as not being "true FF" or whatever. (FFX and FFXII are actually 2 of my top 5) But it's pretty clear that some of the core "elements" of the series were shifted into "properties" after the series creator no longer had the final say on things. Which, depending on how you look at it, could be considered either good, bad, or both.
Anyway, that's my view of how the series has evolved over time. Thanks for the video. It was a great watch.
Hey, thanks for your input. I think your points are pertinent to the discussion, especially in allowing for context. A few thoughts:
I think you’re absolutely right in saying certain elements have become properties. I would say for the first 10 entries, turn based battle would have been an element. And for Sakaguchi, that was probably the case. However, his admission that he likely wasn’t able to make a good action game should be noted- it’s a limitation of his ability, not necessarily the franchise. I think hearing his endorsement of the recent games speaks to that to a degree.
I also want to say, the ontological analysis I performed took into account current knowledge- not necessarily isolated eras of the past (sakaguchi’s era). It also didn’t seek to future-proof a definition. In the realm of religion, for example, an ontology of “God” in the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament would produce elements and that might become properties if one opened the discussion up to an inclusion of New Testament/Christian ideology. But, that doesn’t make the ontology of the Hebrew Bible pericope any more or less true. It’s just a narrower scope.
So when we are looking at the whole of Final Fantasy, I think we can find some basis in the past (hence my inclusion of the 3 developer quotes) as we reframe where FF currently sits as a franchise.
That’s my 2 cents on it though. I don’t disagree with you at all, actually. I also accept that SE has named 16 mainline games “Final Fantasy.” My goal isn’t to determine whether they are right (way beyond my pay grade), but rather what it means for the franchise.
@@profnoctis Thank you for your well thought out response. I think we are mostly in agreement!
The FF series has a dedicated following, but we sure are divided in this "what makes Final Fantasy?"question. And I think it's primarily because the older half of us adhere to Sakaguchi's vision and will only allow some minor tweaks to that.
While the younger/newer fans and the company itself feel like FF needs to branch out to attract a bigger audience.
So it's like we have 2 different fanbases and I'm not sure if there will ever be a title that can unite the clans together. :(
@@dudemcguy1227 I think in some ways you’re right! But I should note- I’m def old guard, born in 1983. Rented FF1 briefly. Played FF4, went back to 1, then to 6. Then caught up on all the rest in 1997-2000 when I got my PlayStation. So, I’m pretty amenable to the changes, but those are what I cut my teeth on!
10/10 no notes and you included the BEST boss music in the series! Yeah I said it, Sephiroth fiends
Aw thank you for that. That song is so hype
This video omg idk why it made me emotionnal. This is my favorite franchise and maybe your the first to put the exact words to why I love it so much. Ty for this idk either why UA-cam never putted you in my face I could not resist the sub button
Oh man, That means a lot! Thanks for watching and the sub. This is the first “real” UA-cam video I’ve made. All my others were gameplay exports. So hopefully you’ll see me more as i make new vids!
@@profnoctis im no expert but for a first it was really well made. I liked the edit and the music choices and like i said I really resonate with your core idea. I will keep an eye out !
@@j-plarouche9959 thank you so much!
"You most likely became a fan (of a certain mainline FF) because of a risk or change that might have upset another player."
-Jesse Cox
Every numbered FF changes and explores different things from the last, and that what I think is the 'unchanging mark' of a true Final Fantasy.
I do agree. The constant is change and adaptation to the culture. Also, he’s definitely speaking to people younger than I am lol. I’ve weathered every iteration and actually loved them all!
It seems to clear once you add in the need to break a loop. Fantastic video.
Thank you!
Came here after seing your story about meeting Ben Star. This is a very good video !
Hey thanks!
This is exactly how I see Final Fantasy. This is what i have been saying for years! The story, lore, and impression the game makes on you. Now whenever a turn based purist or live action bro complain about new games I'm going to point them to your video.
Aw thanks :)
I write alot of my storie about breaking an oppresive cycle and i think i self consciously got that from final fantasy. You just woke me uo to that and now im even more in love with my favorite series. Thank you
Really glad to hear it. Thanks for watching!
tongue-in-cheek meta comment. one day we will break the cycle of final fantasy releases, which will make that last installment the *final* fantasy.
great video!
LOL We were the final fantasy all along
Excellent video! You really put into perspective that which defines Final Fantasy.
Hey, thanks! Really hope it offers some insight into the conversation.
3:12 Instantly subscribed after this😂. (So happy I came to your channel after really enjoying your contribution to the FFXVI discussion panel)
Thanks! I’m so glad you enjoyed it.
Hey dude, awesome video man. Hyped me up for the series. Gonna start with 15.
Be sure to check out my lecture plays of XV (starts tonight!) as you play :)
@@profnoctis Will do!
Awesome overview and breakdown of the game!
Thank you!
Good video. Story is what defines Final Fantasy. Some so called "reviewers" or "hard fans" missed the plot saying FF16 isn't FF enough.
My favorite FF are 6, 10, 14 (Shadowbringers/Endwalker). What do they have in common? They made me emotional for a week after finishing them.
Yeah each of those made me a WRECK. Thanks for watching!
I have been saying this till I was blue in the face. Turned based and party controlled combat are not the defining characteristics that made FF what it was. It was the amalgamation of EVERYTHING working together; but the keys were always story, character, detailed/lived in world with a rich history of lore, and CHANGE!!! FFXVI qualifies and was absolutely fantastic.
You were able to say it just a bit better than 99% of everyone else who has tried to explain the same sentiment, including myself. New subscriber and I can't wait to see what you do next.
Hey thanks for your kind words! And thanks for subbing. Great input
Hello from neighboring BHAM! Fantastic video! Love how you broke down the series central themes with examples. Not a bad or heavy handed injection of philosophical concepts either. Gotta a be a hit with some students when you breakout the FF examples in class.
It’s always a fun day when we get to use Final Fantasy in class
Man, you SMASHED this video out of the park! I loved this, so well done, and so informative, great job!
Thank you! Just learning from creators like you :)
You sir, described what a final fantasy is flawlessly! Great video!
Glad you liked it!
Excellent video! Well-thought and well-explained, and you somehow translated a college lecture into a UA-cam gaming video seamlessly. You've earned my subscription, and I can't wait to see what you post next.
Thanks! Looking forward to sharing more in the future
Just discovered you on this video…. Your hard work is starting to pay off! KEEP GOING! This is amazing!
@@Mr8BitHero1 thank you!!
Finally had a chance to watch this video and it was very Entertaining while informative! i learned about Ontology and what makes each Final Fantasy game unique and it was great to know how certain properties connect to FF so well! I hope to see more content from you soon Prof! 🙂👌
Thanks my dude! I’m glad you liked it. New video soon, I hope!
@@profnoctis Awesome! Be sure to let me know when you post the new video soon 🙂
Ending a cycle is a great way of summarizing it and tying them all back to FF1! To me FF has always been about a group of individuals, sometimes from very different walks of life, joining together to put an end to a violent system/ entity, whether that be imperialism, colonialism, supremacy, persecution, etc. Of course, some go heavier into that theme than others. Even the final bosses are some grand metaphor for those things. In a world where people often feel powerless, providing the player such a “fantasy” can be very validating and comforting.
Excellent assessment. Nailed it, I think
I really enjoyed this, Prof! I have some follow up thoughts that I'm curious as to some clarity about from your perspective? Hopefully this can help further the discussion, which will likely continue to evolve even as Final Fantasy itself does.
First off, I love the ontological approach. You already know that I agree with you on discerning between properties and elements. Where my mind is still confused is where the elements are simply RPG elements. For instance, immersion. We know lots of games can be immersive (and maybe I'm just curious to hear more from you on how shared elements between FF and other games still remain worthy of mention for this question).
There's also battle systems. That does seem to be a FF element but is it because it's an RPG genre series? Chocobo Racing isn't an RPG and I don't think either of us believe it's a Final Fantasy, but I can't stop wondering what would happen should the "change" that FF so embraces took a mainline numerical FF to the extreme of genre-shifting. A jump between subgenre, TBRPG to ARPG or MMORPG, is one thing. What would we say if FFXVII was a side-scrolling arcade shmup with no story and no battle system in the RPG tradition?
I appreciated the Sakaguchi quote and its insight. I think a lot about the distinction between a new series being created by one man's vision, identity, and beliefs (with help) vs a brand being run by a corporation who selects new creative visionaries to develop it. I wonder if there'll come a time when we can explore that distinction and explore a creative vision that grew into a corporate brand. As I like to say, anyone can write a Middle-Earth story. Only Tolkien could writte Tolkien stories. Likewise, anyone can write a Final Fantasy story. Only Sakaguchi could write Sakaguchi stories.
Nuance demands that we don't go so far as to say "Final Fantasy stopped being Final Fantasy when its original creator left". I'm not on that boat. I think the original creator is VITAL to exploring what a work IS, but I don't think it's the only deciding factor, particularly where ownership is involved, however corporate.
Finally, breaking the cycle. I love that. Honestly, it's the bit that I could not immediately think of an example for in other RPGs. I'm sure it exists! I'm not sure that it exists in the kind of consistency that FF displays, at least in its numerical mainline form. Spinoffs may muddle that more, I dunno. Of course my mind immediately went to Chrono Trigger, breaking this temporal cycle of the timeline leading to Lavos, this inevitability. But that's a story for another day.
I suppose I just want to know how you'd respond when pressed about basic RPG elements both defining FF and also being shared with other RPGs?
GREAT question! I would say, the properties are necessary in that they emphasize the elements. So, if the elements don’t exist, including the properties doesn’t make a thing uniquely Final Fantasy. That’s why Chocobo GP isn’t a Final Fantasy game, but rather, FF-Adjacent. Properties have to emphasize the core elements of a thing, otherwise they are mere set dressings.
@@profnoctis I like your emphasis on not dismissing properties outright but reducing their primacy instead, so it's elements first and then properties provide the flavoring. In Lewisian terms, to borrow from his book On Stories, I think he'd call that texture. I know that Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy are both RPG series but they have very different textures/properties!
@@theWellRedMageexactly! And even if DQ ended a cycle, the flavor would be different.
Finally a good understanding and take among the ridiculous takes on what FF is.
I appreciate you saying that. Love a lot of other creators, but I’m glad I can share my own thoughts too!
wow, love this! great guest at ResonantArc! also am reminded of Bill Nye the Science Guy! And you are definitely on to something!
THE Bill Nye?! Look mom, I made it!
I just love that you said "regular Nintendo". What a BOSS.
-Red
Hahaha showing my age I guess
@@profnoctis in a good way
Final Fantasy 7 & 8 were the first games I played after getting my PS1. I first played FF8 on the Pizza Hut PlayStation demo disc and later bought FF7 for my birthday. I think I was around 10 years old.
I was in 7th grade I think when 7 came out. Golden years
@@profnoctis Indeed. I miss the 90s and early 2000s.
@@queensevilregal what a time forreal
Been a fan of the franchise since FF7 back in the 90's, I never had to ask myself what makes a Final Fantasy a Final Fantasy because just like myself, the game has been evolving throughout the years and I'm just flowing with it, no point in wasting time and energy trying to control it or transform it into something I want it to be when I can just simply enjoy it and appreciate it for what it is, and holly molly the valuable and beautiful memories said mindset has given me, not only with FF but games in general, I wouldn't want it another way.
And I know for sure FF16 won't be different, I'm pretty sure I'll love it as well, just like FF15. I bought a PS5 just cuz of FF16 (and of course the upcoming FF7 Rebirth) and it arrives tomorrow, I cannot wait!
That’s how I feel, too. I don’t try to argue it- just enjoy it. This video is meant to explain the franchise to my students at Bama who aren’t gamers but need to know the history for context for class. I’m excited for you to play 16! I’m about halfway through it right now and I love it. Curious to hear your thoughts!
I hope Jesse Cox watches this. He also did a great video on the current "not my final fantasy" which was a bit different. Both of these are great though to show that while all FF games strive to break some sort of negative cycle in their worlds, the game devs themselves also break from the past versions as well and try to use the best technology available to do so.
Jesse’s video was great! Crazy that our videos dropped the same day lol
outstanding explanation, thank you 🙌
Glad it was helpful!
This is an awesome video and I love it, and it gave me an understanding of what is final fantasy, it’s so interesting to hear it.
Absolutely fantastic video. I love your view on this. Can't wait to see your next piece of content regarding FF.
Thank you so much!
Great vid man. My first ff was X. And I got that same feeling in XVI.
Awesome! I loved xvi
Fantastic video. Really puts it all into perspective.
Nice video, I'm looking forward to whatever you do next, honestly it's remarkably well put together for your first go at this! I'll throw in my 2 cents on the question of defining what a Final Fantasy is, and then ask a question about applying your criteria to games, with specific examples. Please don't think I'm bashing your hard work, I think it's interesting to think about stuff like this.
Anyway, this was rattling around my head at work. So, before I'm too tired, I'll try to recall everything and reply to you. I hope this isn't too long.
First, I wonder how useful it is to arrive at a provable definition of what a Final Fantasy is. I don't think it's an exact science, so I don't know if it's even possible, but let's assume it is. Would it benefit the discussion of FF, or other titles? I think most of the time I've seen people invoke this argument, especially recently with FF16, the claim that something is, or isn't, a Final Fantasy seems to be a way of saying it doesn't meet a person's expectations of what a FF game should be. In that case, I'm not sure being able to authoritatively point to the dictionary definition of what a Final Fantasy game is will help. They're making a different point, and I think it often hinges upon the elements you mentioned. I think those may be the strongest identifiers for a lot of people, as without this flavouring, their view of FF may not be very different from other JRPGs, it needs the preferred battle system, to be iterative, the Dragoons, the Bombs etc.
The other way I see this used is when they're trying to imply that not being a Final Fantasy game, is somehow a strike against the title in question, or I guess the inverse where being a FF title grants it extra prestige. This is something I feel strongly about. The title shouldn't have any bearing on the quality of the game. I think trying to preserve the FF name, by only applying it to a small section of the series, is putting more importance on the name, than the games they venerate.
Anyway, that's part 1, I don't know if it's possible, or desirable to prove what FF is. I think that part of a discussion is a bit of a distraction from the game itself, and the game in question is far more interesting to evaluate and discuss.
Onto the my next bit. I'm curious what you'd make of games that aren't part of the series, but match everything you've said here. I guess the biggest one that springs to mind is Bravely Default, but Live A Live also has so much that could be called Final Fantasy and I'm fairly certain there are plenty more. It's just that Bravely Default goes even further, it has so many of the properties and elements, from familiar spell names, jobs, equipment, the structure of progression through the game. It even hammers home the idea of breaking the cycle, perhaps more than any main FF title, by actually making the player live the cycle, then to top it off, in a stroke of brilliance the game literally brings the player into the final battle. It really is us, and our friends, breaking the cycle! Of course, perhaps this is a very clever flex, showing the developers know what Final Fantasy is all about and are paying the ultimate homage. After all, this game is a successor, in spirit, to a Final Fantasy spin-off. In Japan it even plays with the FF abbreviation. Or is it even harder to pin down what a Final Fantasy is, other than a brand encompassing just about everything under the sun!
So is Bravely Default actually Final Fantasy? Oh wait.. it doesn't have gil. Is gil the secret? lt was money all along!
That's enough from me. In summary, I don't know if defining Final Fantasy helps much, and what do you think about other titles that share so much in common with FF?
Man, this is a great comment. I don’t think defining Final Fantasy is any more or less important than to finding anything. But it can be helpful as far as classification is concerned. That is really the root of ontology, in my opinion. When I give this 75 minute lecture in my class, I am speaking to gamers, Final Fantasy fans, and students who have never played a modern video game. So I have to start with what a Final Fantasy is in that respect. This is not to say there isn’t distinctive, overlap, but I think all of these together help make up what we are talking about when we say “final fantasy.” ultimately, there are going to be tropes that extend beyond the franchise to other games, and I think that that is where the genre of something comes out. A Japanese role-playing game might be a central element, but the spokes might be the various games and franchises. Final fantasy and dragon quest, for example.
In any case, the purpose of defining what final fantasy is as a franchise is, I think, very helpful in understanding what you are getting when you play a game. At one point, final fantasy could be synonymous with a type of battle system. That is not the case anymore. So as a franchise, we’ve had to broaden it up. I’ve tried to quantify that in some discernible way, but it is incredibly subjective, as you can imagine.
I kind of liken it to Mario. Mario games are about saving the princess. But mainline Mario games are typically going to be about saving the princess with a mushroom kingdom aesthetic. They reinforce the uniqueness of the story that they are telling. And that story is being retold again and again. Same with Zelda. Final Fantasy, I argue, is telling a pretty similar story 16 different times.
Now, with bravely default and live or live, I think these are spiritual successors. Some of these games may have even been in development as a Final Fantasies (like Chrono Trigger and Xenogears). So I think there’s a difference between being a core installment of the franchise and inspired by the franchise.
You have me sold on the franchise.
right on!
Great video bro as a life long ff fan i agree completely, very well done!!
Thanks for watching!
God that was a good video. Congrats!! I'm so glad you finally released something like this after you mentioned it on twitter. I'm looking forward to your next videos keep up the great work!
I’m so glad you enjoyed it! I really hope to do more like this.
i love how positive you are about the ff franchise! this also made me want to replay my faves. instant subscribe. keep it up.
Aw thanks! It’s my favorite franchise, so I’m glad that comes through
This just proves my idea that every FF is an FF, wether people complain or not. I mean I dont like mmos, so I never liked those games, but I would never argue they are not FFs just because of that, but youll see peopel argue that practically any FF after VI is not an FF because they dont like that particular game for whatever reason *eyeroll*
when you said 3 notes can bring sadness and all my first tought was the first notes of to Zanarkand which never fails at hitting me right in the feels, but Aeriths theme is also up there so thats fair. You ever saw a compilation of people reaction to when they played her theme in the remake? cause maaaan...that really shows the power of it truly
also, that reaction to the music having a choir made me laugh lol
Hahaha thanks! Yeah that theme in X hits hard, and I almost put that one in. And let me say, I flipped OUT when that choir hit haha
@@profnoctis understandable, I was surprised too when I listened to it and suddenly theres choir XD the music department never misses in FF
Great breakdown. Thanks.
I picked up FFVii a year ago and I loved it on the switch
I love this. I agree. Final Fantasy is centered around a group of people building relationships and refusing to accept the way things are
Exactly!
huuuuuge video! as a long time final fantasy fan, i was always wondering what it is, that made me feel like "yes, thats definitly a ff" just by seeing a trailer. thank you for your insight. take my upvote and my sub :)
Gosh that means a lot. Thank you so much!
Such an amazing video! Thanks for this. Love the song choice at the end too.
I feel like using that song is a cheat code lol. But it thematically fit with what I wanted to convey. Thanks for watching!
@@profnoctis It really did! Looking forward to more!
Amazing video. Got me happy-crying over here.
I’m so happy you liked it!
Great video! You made a lot of great points and I whole heartedly agree with everything you said!
Awesome! Thank you for watching
Nice name btw!
@@profnoctis Thank you! Same to you!
My buddy and I made the "breaking the cycle" connection in high school when FF7 released. Although we referred to it as "The final fantasy of that world".
I like that phrase a lot
I'm betting the discourse of XVI inspired this a bit? This is great. I'll be sharing this.
In some ways it did! I’m a professor who teaches a class on religion and FFXV, so I do a lecture on this topic. When I attended the LA FFXVI prelaunch event with other content creators, they encouraged me to put one out. So I adapted the lecture into this… which will also serve as part of their homework. Thank you so much for watching!
Final fantasy game: a game that pushes the boundaries of player immersion through graphics, sound, and world design (using familiar and beloved properties) in a narrative that is in the FINAL iteration of an oppressive cycle.
First off, great video.
1- I think the "pushes the boundaries" part is a very big burden to place on every FF game, by that definition, if a certain FF game is OK in the graphics department, then it's necessarily not "pushing the boundaries of player immersion THROUGH graphics" which seems like a silly reason to exclude a FF game from being a FF game.
2- Additionally, "narrative in the FINAL iteration of an oppressive cycle" can literally refer to any "good guys beat oppressive bad guys/institution" which is the premise of many many games. A "cycle" can be a set of one, it need not be some type of time loop where attempts have been made many times in the past. Making a game like cyberpunk pass this test.
3- This leaves us with "familiar and beloved properties", this begs the question, how many of those properties are required? and what are the NECCESARY properties required?(if any) Is Cid a necessary property? because FF1 lacks him. If you make the bar TOO LOW like needing just one property, then other games might pass the test despite clearly not being final fantasy by having something akin to crystals for example, or just accidentally having a character named cid.
I'm obviously being pedantic and nit-picky but I do think trying to precisely define what makes a FF a FF is like trying to discern when grains of sands become a pile of sand. UNLESS, you go with the obvious definition of: it's whatever game included in the franchise named "final fantasy".
With that said, I've only played ff14 so idk what im talking about lol
Hey thanks for watching and engaging. I’ll try to talk about each.
1) the goal of setting the standard for narrative based games in immersive presentation and gameplay is wildly subjective for the developer and intrinsically contextual. But I think the intent is important. For each system, a FF is going to push the boundaries of what is possible. For this reason, I highly doubt a mainline FF will ever again return to pixel format. That’s a style of the past, not the future. And FF, as a prime element, is going to push toward the future of immersion.
2) the end of an oppressive cycle COULD be part another franchise or story. But it would simply be a property of that story, likely. Whereas, when you buy a FF game, you (likely) know that there will be some cycle that must be broken. Zelda’s core element is saving the princess, though many other stories do this as well, for example.
3) How many properties are necessary is, again, subjective. I think for the most popular and successful entries in FF, a LOT of the staples are there. For instance, there are no crystals (except save points) or moogles in 10. There are no chocobos or Cid in 1. These are irrefutably “Final Fantasy,” though. I think the properties give an important FF aesthetic, which is what people want.
And hey, based on your experience, you do see a ton of FF history in 14! I’d encourage you to play some others too.
I love this video, and you should definitely make more videos in this style in the future 💪💙
Thanks! I plan to :)
The moment you Throw that pamdemonium music from ff2 i jumped ! Gosh i love this music
Haha clearly I did too 😅
I really enjoyed your perspective on this. I think we should look at it less as "what Final Fantasy is" and instead "what Final Fantasy can be" because 16 really shows that it can be anything! Definitely subscribing :)
Now you’re talking! That’s a GREAT question to ask
Great work, loved your video.
Break the cycle.
Hey thanks!
@@profnoctis The pleasure was mine. While I adore the series in its highs and its lows, I’m proud to say I can write an extended thesis on FF7’s organic world-building as well as finally clear up the Sephiroth-Jenova debate. Can also elaborate on FF6 character case studies. Those two games are exceptionally special to me, and how the series has evolved as a whole has shown me just how special the group at Square really are and have been for all this time.
@@miki49 love it. I’d read those
@@profnoctis Would have to do some light digging for some of them, but I’d be happy to find and share whichever topics you find the most interesting my friend. Can even use them in a vid if you like them, cuz what matters most to me is more people seeing, hearing, and feeling how fully realized and relatable these universes actually are. Feel free to keep in touch. Really did enjoy your video and will be a subscriber for future content from here on out 👌🏼
@@miki49 I’d love to think more on this. Send me some resources and I’ll consider it. Also may want to hit me up on Twitter bc I check dms and comments much more there
Great video man. Tried to make something similar but you definitely did it better. ❤
You’re so kind. Thanks for watching!
Really enjoyed this and a lot of great editing choices. I do wonder if there is some more nuance to what kind of battle system is elemental to FF. I certainly don't think it's turn-based vs action (which is just a property, as you mention). I only wonder since most games have some kind of combat system, so just mulling over if there's a descriptor for the kind of battle systems in FF games that cut across them all in a similar way that you did for Immersion.
I actually (great shame) have yet to play 1-6 so it's hard for me to say, but based on the ones I've played, I would probably argue that it's something along the lines of "Flexible Battle System." Even FF16 emphasizes flexibility in terms of being able to choose which Eikon skills to map to your specific build to Clive and then encouraging you to be flexibile with how you use those skills (like all of the crazy combo videos I've seen of people combo'ing abilities in ways I never thought of)
You’re totally right. I like the flexibility of being able to play how I want to play. Magic or melee, heavy hitter or more defensive. That seems to be an element throughout the series. This is a phenomenal peer-review point you’ve made, and I’ll be including it in my in-person lectures! Thank you!
Dude I love this!!
Thanks my dude
I have one criticism. We don't end the succession of witches in Final Fantasy 8. The game ends with Ultimecia passing on her powers to Edea, thus repeating the cycle again.
I think it is ended in the future.
When Ultimecia is killed, travels to the past and passes her power to Edea, it means the succession doesn't continue after the time of Ultimecia. All generations from that point onwards will have no more sorceresses.
@@strangevision99 That is a really good point!
Boom! Y’all sorted it out before I saw the comment :)
Just getting around to watching this.. GREAT VIDEO!!
AH! Thank you! It was my first “real” UA-cam video. Coming from a vet you that means a lot!
This was an awesome video man! 🤙
Appreciate it!
One of the greatest videos on this site.
Incredibly kind. Thanks for watching!
My first was FFVIII. Still one of my faves :)
It’s SO GOOD.
Ho boy dropping the philosophy bomb on a video game video.
I think you can find some more elements, and more rigorously define (refine, I guess is what I mean) the existing ones you mentioned. For instance, growth or "coming-of-age" seems to be one, along with or perhaps under an umbrella of "growth".
I could agree with that. Though I wonder if that might be more of a property. Hmm. Either way though, I tried to be pretty selective, so I’m sure my list isn’t comprehensive or exhaustive
We need to end the cycle of comparison between each final fantasy iteration every time new ff comes out.
Lol that’s like ending human nature. But I think there are helpful and unhelpful ways to do it.
FF16 is traditionally Final Fantasy in all but the combat, which is basically a first for the series. FF16 to me is about what Final Fantasy can be, but also what it is, because the game is filled to the brim with homages and mainstays in the series.
Solid point!
Amazing video!! You were able to put this into words and I absolutely respect that!! I’m subbing! 🤘🏻😁🤘🏻
Thanks for watching!
You not just onto something you hit it right on the head ty
Thanks my friend. Appreciate your kind words
I’ve never got into Final Fantasy. (From aesthetics & story, to systems & gameplay, it’s looked pretty confusing over the years.)
Hopefully you can help me understand what it’s all about. 😅
Maybe so! This video may help. But I have another video coming soon about this topic that may give you a starting point
Love the set up it looks great :) :) You didn't leave anything out.
Thanks!
Here because of Babyseal. Great video 🙌
Welcome and thanks for watching!
I did a History of Final Fantasy panel at a few anime conventions. I found that the games up through XIII followed a three beat pattern - Innovation, Experimentation, followed by Maturity. Each time a game comes out on a new console, they do in fact set the standard for what an RPG needs to be on that generation of hardware. But by the third game on that console, they've figured out how to squeeze every bit of performance from the hardware, which is why the last game on a console looks even more impressive than the first one. I, IV, VII, and X all made a splash with the newest graphics. II, V, XIII, and XI played with battle systems and concepts to do something different. III, VI, IX, and XII pushed their respective consoles to the limit. I remember someone saying after seeing X: "But that is as pretty as it'll ever get." And then XII came out, using tricks they'd picked up developing XI to make XII's graphics and art style shine with their own fantastic style.
Things got blurry with XIII-XIV since they were the only ones ever released for PS3, and then XV jumped to PS4, and XVI to PS5, sort of collapsing the pattern. (I blame Kingdom Hearts for this since Nomura had his fingers in way too many pies when they were working on XIII and XIII Versus.)
I love this. I would’ve loved to have seen that panel
Amazing video ❤🎉 thank you for making it!
You’re welcome! My students in the fall will hopefully enjoy this for homework
This is a great video bro. Commenting to appease the algorithm elder god.
You’re the best. Thanks for your offering to the algorithm divinities
Hmmm ok. To a lot of people, final fantasy is a deeply mechanical but streamlined turn based rpg made by the direction of hironobu sakaguchi and with music composed by hironobu sakaguchi and deeply rooted in d&d. Lately final fantasy is a story based linear adventure that chases industry trends.
Cynical but understandable. I grew up on FF and I never associated it with its turn based style any more or less than dragon quest. To me, the difference maker was the story and properties. I think there’s a difference in “chasing industry trends” and trying to expand the audience. These stories are good enough to break beyond the traditional JRPG and turn-based crowds. That said, change is hard, and I get that. I wasn’t wild about FF12’s changes. But I learned to love it, and accept that my favorite franchise was evolving in style, but the core remained.
absolutely phenomenal video
Thank you!
What an amazing video, you did such an excellent job putting a tired old debate to rest in the simplest way!
every time a new mainline FF comes out, we have to go through the same old dumb argument “This is not a final fantasy”.. cause everyone’s idea of what a “real” FF is most likely their favorite or their first one, but that’s impossible to achieve because every new game strives to be different, with a new team and new talent behind it, and that’s the beauty of this series! Each new game is a completely new world for you to be immersed in! If you’re going into the latest installment expecting the same experience, whether narratively or gameplay wise all over again as your favorite or first entry, you will NEVER be happy with it… because that goes against what the series tries to do with every new game.
Subscribed!
Thanks! Means a lot :)
This is such a great video
Thank you!
Editing king 👑
Haha thanks!
Great video! In short, a FF is always about revolution against oppression, injustice and evil forces that conceil themselves behind political figures. Long live FF.
Love it
Great video, I look forward to the next. I'd recommend lowering the music by 30% next time though!
Great suggestion! Thank you for watching
I too miss the Moombas😢
Bring them back, please
2/3s of the main series are eerily similar. Almost like they were variations of the same core elements and it wasnt just battle.
You can say whatever you want and try to blur the lines. Final fantasy was a jrpg and 16 is not. Hasnt really been since 10.
Lol, not trying to “say whatever… to blur the lines,” so that’s a misunderstanding. Just calling it like I see it. 16 is definitely not a classic JRPG. But I’d say it’s a J-character action game! But it seems Final Fantasy isn’t going to be just an RPG anymore.
This is an awesome video! Well done sir!
Thank you!
Spot on!