This topic is really interesting because we never had this problem back in my local shop. It was hard to build a proper deck with little product we get from the supplier, so everyone just ended up with one main fully built deck and some fun decks
Just beginning to build a deck and my mind is set on the Luard Stride deck cuz it has most of the necessary pieces already available with a few bits still hanging around at my locals (also Luard is pretty cool). The variety of cards and the ease of how they can be bought makes it easier to default on certain decks more than the others.
For singles, normal swiss is fine for determining the best. Its fine for english where people are more competetive. For team formats, Diversity cut makes more sense since you can play a rogue deck while your teammates can play the meta decks. It also gives a better idea of what are the rogue decks of a meta as even with diversity cut, people do be playing meta For me while it may suck to be punished for playing all the meta decks in your team, it also does give rogue decks a chance to shine since it encourages people to try and experiment. As for the abusing the system, the one nation per player system stops the thing Different fight mentioned. I wonder why they dont do that.
I personally love this system, it keeps your competitive scene from being stale and full of mirrors. I believe that this better reflects player skill rather than who has the better cards. T0 and T1 decks have a natural advantage into the competition, someone with a jank T3 deck would have a harder time competing against T0. If the 6th place in swiss is booted out because they're using the same decks, they are the 6th best player of those decks, but the jank T3 that got in is THE best on the deck.
I mean, if Im understanding this correctly, even the 22nd place team went x-1 in this tournament example you give. So really what we are shifting from normal swiss is the factoring of how well your opponents did- putting that on lower priority than deck diversity. Both are factors a little out of the pilot's control; you have no control if your opponents in a 5 round swiss go on to win or lose their next matches, and it always sucks to get kicked off the bubble because someone else has better tiebreakers. At least this encourages deck variety.
Diversity cut really seems like the application of that kid saying "everyone should just play what they have fun with" and it being enforced to punish players playing a better deck who either lost early to someone better, or got sacked later on in swiss
For me, Diversity Cut is a "feel good" template. Seeing the diversity of decks makes you feel that the game is can be played with variety of decks and the game is "balanced". However, that just it. It does not add to the competitive side of the game. Diversity Cut makes you feel good but it does not make you think competitively as a player and the latter is what we want for this game to prosper.
As a player who likes to travel and play the most competitive perspective of Cfvg, I think Diversity Cut is just not it. It makes me feel like I wasted time in learning/paying for a competitive deck in the game. Like imagine I spent $800 on a Fullnut deck and spent another 30+ hours to find optimal attack patterns/figure out matchups only to get highrolled by another Fullnutter and then go x-1 just to get told to walk home for playing the same deck as the guy who went x-0. This could work for something like Springfest where the stakes aren't that high possibly, but for sure not something like BCS where Sponsored trips are involved + prize/participation cards. Great video btw :>
Tbh its an extreme mixed bag for me. On one hand, I think diversity cut has some cool bits to it that are nice (I feel like there's a skill appeal that exists by bringing a deck you're more familiar with and winning with it that does get shut down in non-diversity cup formats, and tbh I feel like we should be basing data off of usage rate anyways because even in swiss top data just doesn't show the full picture). But at the same time, while Swiss is SO far from perfect (the possibility of dying at X-1 because you happened to get paired down or having opponents who played badly also just doesn't feel fair) it if nothing else *feels* better while playing it, you know? I also definitely agree, any excuse for more rounds feels nice, though I think at any point you're X-1 in either format you're still playing for a chance to top at best. Also, what does Japan do for singles format? Swiss or diversity cut? I know that like 90% of official Bushi JP events are teams, but that was a weird point since I think VGCS is singles afaik
Official singles are usually diversity cut (examples are the recent Premium event and the Standard one that Shojodoji won in), but VGCSes are often just pure swiss, but some employ diversity cut for X-2s.
Weirdly, it does not expand and consider the 1st X-1 when searching for the 2nd X-1, and so forth. (I guess it is to save time). But it ends up pushing a lot of the same decks (Like in your example, 4 Bastion Acord entered the top 16).
I think that if you get too extreme with the way you use it to break ties, then yes it can be unfair. For example, if an X-1 person got in over an X-0 person. But I think as a general tiebreaker, it is the exact same as using any other tiebreaker, only that you get rewarded for not copying "the best deck" and thus "showed more skill in getting the same number of wins". And you say "It doesn't show the true metagame" but it does. It is a different metagame. What is considered the strongest deck just now has different perimeters, as it considers the fact of how many people use it. You essentially have a "stronger deck" now without the text on the cards having to be changed to reflect that.
They did use it in G because I distinctly remember G-BT13 format we had all the X-Os be Overlord and Chaos with a bunch of random stuff fill in the rest.
Diversity cut is a very subjective rule added on for these tournaments. It helps unusual decks that don't get to shine usually in tournaments as it gets crushed by the top tier decks and at the same time help people who likes or is just stuck with those decks have the chance to get in the top cut BUT this kind of disrespects those that are fighting strongly for victory but only to get disregarded because they didn't do a little bit better in their clashes. I'd say this will likely create two divisions that mostly concerns players that has only unusual deck and competitive players that uses meta decks
It's just used as a tiebreaker. You have to tie break somehow. Generally you use something like "How good were the opponents you faced" But here, you use "How unique is your deck" as a tiebreaker. Like if you used the best deck, and tied with someone playing rouge, even if you would normally win the tiebreaker in other games, are you really the better player? You can argue about deckbuilding or mera calls being a skill, but so could predicting the top decks, and using a less used, but competent deck as a meta call. Besides, vanguard is just less competitive than other card games. The trigger system makes sure of that. The best player on the best deck with terrible trigger luck will generally lose to an average player with a rouge deck, but amazing trigger luck. As a game, it's easy to get into, high variance, and casual oriented. It's also a lot more balanced than other card games, with a few exceptions, the difference between the top decks and a low tier deck is much smaller, than say, Yugioh. I would argue that this system makes perfect sense for Vanguard.
I guess I don't see it as wholly negative because, you still have to win. It's not like you can just lose all your games and get into the top cut because all of you played decks that don't clash. You have to actually win a good amount with those non-meta picks. The fact that you can cheat the system with the Trial Deck bosses and such is stupid though.
I feel like this is a cool way to maybe do a locals or free entry promote vanguard event. I'm glad it doesn't exist in the west because I would feel super annoyed practicing and learning match-ups only to get top 16 instead of top 8 because of diversity.
For me its like you already used the meta and couldn't perform to what is expected of it hence the graver punishment. Sure trigger sacks are part of vanguard but everyone can tip that pendulum even the meta user. I just don't agree with the policy abuse of basing it on the ride deck to bypass the cut, they should fix that by maybe overall g3/4 used cards in the deck and making that the deck identity or inspecting game states on what vg was sitting at the end of a game.
first all undefeated teams are in 5 in this case for the remaning 11 teams they looked for the teams which ride decks "clashed" the least with the 15 ride decks in the undefeated and put them in too
I feels like diversity cut would be fine if its used as a tiebreaker instead of whatever this is. Like you have 4 teams competing for the last 2 slot, then sure I think the people who managed to tie with meta decks using rouge decks deserved it.
It IS used as a tiebreaker. Every single team that scored 4-1 has the same team score, so the first tiebreaker Bushi uses is diversity cut The problem isn't how it's used, the problem is that Bushi tournaments don't have enough rounds
@@rinp9666 No, I mean only as a tie breaker for the teams that tied for the last few spots. This would mean that no team that's placed on like the 30+ position can make top cut like in the video. Top 16 will be given to the top 16 teams, no something where no 6 do not make it to the top 16
If only there wasn't such a huge power creep in this game... some card designs in Vanguard are just questionable. The DISPARITY in strength can differ so so much between decks that this system has to be implemented.
Diversity cut would be okay if they didn't power creep the game so hard with decks like drajeweled and mygo. Those decks are filthy and stupid. Also MYgo is a cheap structure deck, everybody is incentivized to play that broken 4 drive check 5 attacks +persona ride power on last two attacks POS
I disagree - both the decks you mentioned are indeed very strong, but they come with glaring weaknesses for you, as the opponent to take advantage of, which imo Tier 1 decks in the past did not have as much. If you let Drajeweled get to the late game, it's a beast. However, it has a horrible early game and weaker Turn 3 going 1st compared to other decks, so the game naturally invites you to problem solve and realize that you can beat that matchup by abusing that weak point. MyGo is the opposite in that it is an early-game beast that rushes you down and has a huge advantage over slower decks like Drajeweled, but it has a ceiling of power, deck building and general effects that can only be raised by Persona power. As someone that used MyGo in events for quite a while, you're basically a car that goes 0 to 120 kmh in a second, but the moment someone figures out to damage deny your Anon search, you lose your plussing engine and the deck's late game is really bad. Sorry for the long reply, but I think these decks are a great example of the speed tier dynamics in the format which I hope will continue going forward because it makes for very intriguing game states.
This topic is really interesting because we never had this problem back in my local shop. It was hard to build a proper deck with little product we get from the supplier, so everyone just ended up with one main fully built deck and some fun decks
Just beginning to build a deck and my mind is set on the Luard Stride deck cuz it has most of the necessary pieces already available with a few bits still hanging around at my locals (also Luard is pretty cool).
The variety of cards and the ease of how they can be bought makes it easier to default on certain decks more than the others.
For singles, normal swiss is fine for determining the best. Its fine for english where people are more competetive.
For team formats, Diversity cut makes more sense since you can play a rogue deck while your teammates can play the meta decks. It also gives a better idea of what are the rogue decks of a meta as even with diversity cut, people do be playing meta
For me while it may suck to be punished for playing all the meta decks in your team, it also does give rogue decks a chance to shine since it encourages people to try and experiment.
As for the abusing the system, the one nation per player system stops the thing Different fight mentioned. I wonder why they dont do that.
I personally love this system, it keeps your competitive scene from being stale and full of mirrors. I believe that this better reflects player skill rather than who has the better cards. T0 and T1 decks have a natural advantage into the competition, someone with a jank T3 deck would have a harder time competing against T0. If the 6th place in swiss is booted out because they're using the same decks, they are the 6th best player of those decks, but the jank T3 that got in is THE best on the deck.
2:50 this is the true content i come for
Aaah, I remembered DM-ing you in Twitter just to ask what is Diversity Cut 😂😂
I remember a long time ago during the Chaos Breaker/Raging Form Dragon format of Limit Break we had Diversity Cut in our HK WGP.
This system got some crazy history lmao
I mean, if Im understanding this correctly, even the 22nd place team went x-1 in this tournament example you give. So really what we are shifting from normal swiss is the factoring of how well your opponents did- putting that on lower priority than deck diversity. Both are factors a little out of the pilot's control; you have no control if your opponents in a 5 round swiss go on to win or lose their next matches, and it always sucks to get kicked off the bubble because someone else has better tiebreakers. At least this encourages deck variety.
Diversity cut really seems like the application of that kid saying "everyone should just play what they have fun with" and it being enforced to punish players playing a better deck who either lost early to someone better, or got sacked later on in swiss
"she revel in my form tell i full blast-ussy" I... um... you breaking the rock my guy?
For me, Diversity Cut is a "feel good" template. Seeing the diversity of decks makes you feel that the game is can be played with variety of decks and the game is "balanced". However, that just it. It does not add to the competitive side of the game. Diversity Cut makes you feel good but it does not make you think competitively as a player and the latter is what we want for this game to prosper.
Hooo I mostly understand what diversity cut is now.
Thanks for the knowledge, Kris~
As a player who likes to travel and play the most competitive perspective of Cfvg, I think Diversity Cut is just not it.
It makes me feel like I wasted time in learning/paying for a competitive deck in the game.
Like imagine I spent $800 on a Fullnut deck and spent another 30+ hours to find optimal attack patterns/figure out matchups only to get highrolled by another Fullnutter and then go x-1 just to get told to walk home for playing the same deck as the guy who went x-0.
This could work for something like Springfest where the stakes aren't that high possibly, but for sure not something like BCS where Sponsored trips are involved + prize/participation cards.
Great video btw :>
Tbh its an extreme mixed bag for me. On one hand, I think diversity cut has some cool bits to it that are nice (I feel like there's a skill appeal that exists by bringing a deck you're more familiar with and winning with it that does get shut down in non-diversity cup formats, and tbh I feel like we should be basing data off of usage rate anyways because even in swiss top data just doesn't show the full picture). But at the same time, while Swiss is SO far from perfect (the possibility of dying at X-1 because you happened to get paired down or having opponents who played badly also just doesn't feel fair) it if nothing else *feels* better while playing it, you know? I also definitely agree, any excuse for more rounds feels nice, though I think at any point you're X-1 in either format you're still playing for a chance to top at best.
Also, what does Japan do for singles format? Swiss or diversity cut? I know that like 90% of official Bushi JP events are teams, but that was a weird point since I think VGCS is singles afaik
Official singles are usually diversity cut (examples are the recent Premium event and the Standard one that Shojodoji won in), but VGCSes are often just pure swiss, but some employ diversity cut for X-2s.
@DifferentFight thanks! I wasn't sure how diversity cut would even work in singles but I guess x-2 it could kinda be functional
Weirdly, it does not expand and consider the 1st X-1 when searching for the 2nd X-1, and so forth. (I guess it is to save time). But it ends up pushing a lot of the same decks (Like in your example, 4 Bastion Acord entered the top 16).
Not sure how you save time. The apps already calculates X-1, X-2 and so on. when the last round is finished in seconds.
@@corbinlenning3505 Yeah, but I imagine you have to count diversity cuts manually.
Thank you sir, doing gods work
I think that if you get too extreme with the way you use it to break ties, then yes it can be unfair. For example, if an X-1 person got in over an X-0 person. But I think as a general tiebreaker, it is the exact same as using any other tiebreaker, only that you get rewarded for not copying "the best deck" and thus "showed more skill in getting the same number of wins". And you say "It doesn't show the true metagame" but it does. It is a different metagame. What is considered the strongest deck just now has different perimeters, as it considers the fact of how many people use it. You essentially have a "stronger deck" now without the text on the cards having to be changed to reflect that.
They did use it in G because I distinctly remember G-BT13 format we had all the X-Os be Overlord and Chaos with a bunch of random stuff fill in the rest.
This makes tournaments actually fun. Seeing as this is a children’s card game, I see that as a scarify positive
Diversity cut is a very subjective rule added on for these tournaments. It helps unusual decks that don't get to shine usually in tournaments as it gets crushed by the top tier decks and at the same time help people who likes or is just stuck with those decks have the chance to get in the top cut BUT this kind of disrespects those that are fighting strongly for victory but only to get disregarded because they didn't do a little bit better in their clashes.
I'd say this will likely create two divisions that mostly concerns players that has only unusual deck and competitive players that uses meta decks
I actually love thos system since most of my decks arent meta or tier 1 i just want to play and enjoy tournaments with my favorite decks
I like the idea of diversity cut even if it has its own weird quirks just cause you will see more weird decks in tops
Oh my God. Mighty Switch Force ost.
So they punish you for playing the best decks but aren't as skilled, or lucky, as the tip of the top? I'm sorry, this is SUPER dumb.
I agree with you on that
It's just used as a tiebreaker. You have to tie break somehow. Generally you use something like "How good were the opponents you faced" But here, you use "How unique is your deck" as a tiebreaker.
Like if you used the best deck, and tied with someone playing rouge, even if you would normally win the tiebreaker in other games, are you really the better player?
You can argue about deckbuilding or mera calls being a skill, but so could predicting the top decks, and using a less used, but competent deck as a meta call.
Besides, vanguard is just less competitive than other card games. The trigger system makes sure of that. The best player on the best deck with terrible trigger luck will generally lose to an average player with a rouge deck, but amazing trigger luck. As a game, it's easy to get into, high variance, and casual oriented. It's also a lot more balanced than other card games, with a few exceptions, the difference between the top decks and a low tier deck is much smaller, than say, Yugioh. I would argue that this system makes perfect sense for Vanguard.
I like the idea of busting down people who just clone decks. BUt I think a better name and concept would work much better.
Video: DifFight talking about how Diversity Cut affects the meta
Me: Heh, Grussy
I didn't know about these "diversirty cuts" system, I hated it
I guess I don't see it as wholly negative because, you still have to win. It's not like you can just lose all your games and get into the top cut because all of you played decks that don't clash. You have to actually win a good amount with those non-meta picks.
The fact that you can cheat the system with the Trial Deck bosses and such is stupid though.
So it's ideal to have a member in your team with some wild deck that would be unexpected.
I don’t mind one bit, it rewards underdogs and their lower tier decks, me being a man of taste, is one of these underdog-likes.
Meta players big mad 😂
I feel like this is a cool way to maybe do a locals or free entry promote vanguard event. I'm glad it doesn't exist in the west because I would feel super annoyed practicing and learning match-ups only to get top 16 instead of top 8 because of diversity.
I very good my fav deck like luqier is my fav deck too
I died at Omigrussy 🤣🤣🤣
For me its like you already used the meta and couldn't perform to what is expected of it hence the graver punishment. Sure trigger sacks are part of vanguard but everyone can tip that pendulum even the meta user. I just don't agree with the policy abuse of basing it on the ride deck to bypass the cut, they should fix that by maybe overall g3/4 used cards in the deck and making that the deck identity or inspecting game states on what vg was sitting at the end of a game.
They should just use both systems they are bothe great for diversity cut i like it so I can see the best for each deck with non diversity would do
that explains why chrono always got in. I know he is a good player but according to my knowledge he is the only chronojet player
It definitely feels like a corporate decision to make the game seem healthier than it is at times.
Still don´t understand what the hell diversity cut is.
Please watch the video again
I’m still confused
first all undefeated teams are in 5 in this case for the remaning 11 teams they looked for the teams which ride decks "clashed" the least with the 15 ride decks in the undefeated and put them in too
I feels like diversity cut would be fine if its used as a tiebreaker instead of whatever this is. Like you have 4 teams competing for the last 2 slot, then sure I think the people who managed to tie with meta decks using rouge decks deserved it.
It IS used as a tiebreaker. Every single team that scored 4-1 has the same team score, so the first tiebreaker Bushi uses is diversity cut
The problem isn't how it's used, the problem is that Bushi tournaments don't have enough rounds
@@rinp9666 No, I mean only as a tie breaker for the teams that tied for the last few spots. This would mean that no team that's placed on like the 30+ position can make top cut like in the video. Top 16 will be given to the top 16 teams, no something where no 6 do not make it to the top 16
If only there wasn't such a huge power creep in this game... some card designs in Vanguard are just questionable. The DISPARITY in strength can differ so so much between decks that this system has to be implemented.
Hi
This makes the game less competitive in all fronts. Makes actually hard to tell what is actually rogue decks for the format. It needs to go.
So basically, they seed in jobbers.
Diversity cut would be okay if they didn't power creep the game so hard with decks like drajeweled and mygo. Those decks are filthy and stupid. Also MYgo is a cheap structure deck, everybody is incentivized to play that broken 4 drive check 5 attacks +persona ride power on last two attacks POS
I disagree - both the decks you mentioned are indeed very strong, but they come with glaring weaknesses for you, as the opponent to take advantage of, which imo Tier 1 decks in the past did not have as much.
If you let Drajeweled get to the late game, it's a beast. However, it has a horrible early game and weaker Turn 3 going 1st compared to other decks, so the game naturally invites you to problem solve and realize that you can beat that matchup by abusing that weak point.
MyGo is the opposite in that it is an early-game beast that rushes you down and has a huge advantage over slower decks like Drajeweled, but it has a ceiling of power, deck building and general effects that can only be raised by Persona power. As someone that used MyGo in events for quite a while, you're basically a car that goes 0 to 120 kmh in a second, but the moment someone figures out to damage deny your Anon search, you lose your plussing engine and the deck's late game is really bad.
Sorry for the long reply, but I think these decks are a great example of the speed tier dynamics in the format which I hope will continue going forward because it makes for very intriguing game states.
thank you mister fight@@DifferentFight