Deep diving into Jaeger-LeCoultre price increases: Why did they do it. Is it fair and will it work?
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- Опубліковано 31 лип 2024
- You've likely seen the reactions to Jaeger-LeCoultres' price increases which have been among the most agressive in the market. Some watches have gone up by 40%. I thought I'd deep dive into the topic - Was it because of costs and inflation? Is it a reasonable increase? And what does it mean for consumers?
Really hope you enjoy. Love the support all of you are showing me. All the best and of course - Let me know what you think in the comments? Share your thoughts
Cheers!
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If these watches held a fraction of their value, then maybe I wouldn’t mind as much. But to buy a new JLC is to incinerate money. Also, Tudor not playing this game is part of the reason the community so loves them. Any brand that plays games like this risks incinerating their enthusiast base. They will reap what they sow.
Exactly. No way in hell I would buy a JLC brand-new from an AD. Few months ago, I bought a Master Compressor Memovox, box and papers, perfect condition, for $5k
Rolex and Tudor have modest price gains year to year. They have a lot of power to increase prices if they wanted to, but I think they arent willing to take such risks since demand is so good. Cant say that about JLC, Omega, etc. The Speedy Moonwatch Hesalite was $5200 like 4 years ago, now $7K!
Buying a watch is like buying a new car. The moment it leaves the dealer, it loses 20% of it's value. I think Rolex is probably the only exception. But only because Rolex AD's and grey market dealers are good at manipulating the supply of watches. If you buy a watch, buy it because you really love the style and will keep it for a while.
@@TheSkatereelexactly. It’s full of Rolex and Tudor around by JLC are hard to find. If you want to be a successful watch brand people need to buy and wear your watches. Omega as well forgot that.
The JLC Polaris drops 33% when you step out the AD door. A friend is a Swiss Watch dealer and he showed me the market value list that only dealers can get. $11K Blancpain Bathyscape drops 38%, with a market value of $6700 so I just ordered a brand new one from Jomashop for $7100 😂
Omega Railmaster drops 50%, and I got a new Denim one for $2800 on Jomashop- $5700 on Omega website. I had an issue with the Railmaster and called Omega, the Woman I talked to was aware that Omega sold it to Jomashop 😂.
But try to find any youtuber saying any of this. I’ve posted this info on a bunch of UA-cam channels, so far all of been deleted 🤬 we are being conned.
is the AD experience really worth $4300 🤔
Totally agree with your comments. JLC without doubt has an impressive history and make some wonderful movements. They hiked their prices too much especially 40% which is absolutely ridiculous. Greed and arrogance together makes bad decision in my opinion. Secondary market can definitely buy much cheaper from original retail price.🤔
Yep. Spreading those increases out would have been smarter from a customer perspective 😀
As someone who works corporate, it's refreshing to hear such an accurate breakdown from a financial and business acumen standpoint.
Having said that, I think 40% increase even if bottomline will grow in the long run was far too aggressive. They may have hit a better equilibrium at 25-30% followed by another increase after.
He he. Thanks - I’m just glad that there are people that find ny corporate angle worth watching 😀😀
As a big JLC fan it is quite interesting. The Master Ultra Thin moon phase was £8,600 in 2019. Later, the price changed to £8,500 where it remained for a couple of years. They released an updated moon phase in late 2021 with a thinner movement and case and a 70 hour power reserve with no price increase. Usually a new, better model version comes with a price increase, but not JLC. From early January 2022 it went up to £9,400, then £9,500, then £10,800 by August 2022. Had they held off the price increases by five months, I would have bought one (not in a position to do so in January). Now, it's £11,400 and no way will I pay that much for this model. I have been offered it for £9,500 but not by an authorised dealer. So, some of the steep price increase can be accepted in that the price hadn't changed since 2019, unlike competitors, but still, it sticks in my throat. The Master Ultra thin date is worse, subjectively, having gone from £6,750 to £9,150 and it has received no upgrades of any sort, still with a 38 hour power reserve which, in today's market, is pathetic. At the time, at £6,750 it was way better than a DateJust but now, not so much. The number of people who would now have bought an Omiwatari in preference to the ultra thin date must be significant since the Grand Seiko out does it, in every department. I suspect that now, at my age and with those prices, I will never own a JLC...
It's justified due to the horological history and quality. They deserve to be elevated in the market place and make a statement.
I used to own a MUT Moon which I bought for about £6k. If I had paid over £11k for it I would have been devastated. Yes it’s a lovely watch, it’s not that lovely.
Oh man your story is my story with the Omega seamaster 300. I decided to buy on 2019 when I could buy it for £3000, since then every time I was ready to buy the price changed at the point that now I don’t want anymore for more than £5000.
Interesting point you raise about how their offerings haven't quite kept up, eg in terms of movement specs. There's clearly that angle as well. IWC after all raised praises when going from ETA to own manufacture. JLC haven't made a similar leap.
Thanks for sharing that angle. 😀😀😀
I’m in the same boat. The Reverso and Polaris were on my list at one time, but the price increases have encouraged me to focus more on IWC and Grand Seiko.
Very good. I think JLC are struggling to define themselves beyond Reverso and not doing all they could with that classic. They are haemorrhaging ADs and who would want to sell them? Gouge prices, evaporating customers and best models held back for Boutiques. The only bonus would be selling 3 year old inventory for the new prices. But who’s buying JLC without a 30% discount? The problem is that Richemont brands have indexed themselves to the Rolex secondary market. Crazy because that’s speculative. A JLC should certainly be more expensive than a Panerai or IWC, but the issue is that those brands are far too expensive. I’m sure JLC are playing a long game, but I think they’ve miscalculated the market.
Well said.
Every watch company is raising their retail prices. I'm not saying that it's justified. But just stating a fact. I remember when you could buy a high end Grand Seiko for around 5k. Now the new high end Grand Seiko is around 9K.
I think JLC needs to produce a dive watch. Younger people like dive watches or tool watches. Most of JLC's watches are aimed at older people.
JLC has great movements but their watches don't look as good as Panerai or IWC.
Agree on the reverso. It's at times a "one hit wonder" like the Royal oak - just without the RO hype levels. It's the reversos, the polaris and then all the dress watches to many 😀😀
Better to be thought of as undervalued than to overplay your hand and have people just walk away for good.
Agree 😀😀😀
I think Forest Gump would say,”Luxury is as luxury does “. Being mad that an overpriced luxury good just became more overpriced isn’t worth the aggravation.
My Rolex dealer also carries JLC, Panerai, and Parmigiani-I’ll buy their Rolex at retail and the rest used on the secondary market. Another great vid Mike 😎!
Thanks - And yup. Rolex for the waiting list and secondary for the rest 😀😀😀😂
JLC even increased the cost for a Reverso Leather Strap from 250€ to 420€.
Was not aware of that, but that's bananas 😀😀
As long as the quality and brand can support the price increase, I have no problem with it. My new JLC Polaris Chronograph just arrived last week and it’s awesome.
True. And what people will pay will also be subjective/individual 😀
Great watch making still old school manufacturing not being commercial like Rolex etc so it comes with the price … I have two of them and considering myself honorable owner 😊
As usual, a well thought out and thought provoking analysis and presentation! Always a pleasure to tune in to your videos. Keep up your thought provoking assessments and analysis.
Thanks and cheers as always 😀
You answered all of the questions I was asking about JLC and its price strategy. Well done analysis. I wanted to buy a Master Control moon phase, but was stunned with the rapid increase in price. Now I am looking at other brands.
Thanks . Glad you enjoyed the vid 😀😀
Brilliant as usual. I wanted to buy the green polaris but after the hike I have firmly decided to be with my favorite brands Omega and Grand seiko. Your analysis showed my anger was not misplaced. Thanks from India
If your pivot from JLC is to Omega, you were never the sort of buyer JLC was looking for in the first place.
You're welcome 😀
Brilliant video, quickly becoming one of the best watch channels on YT, love your analysis, keep em coming! 👏❤👏
Thanks, will do! 😀😀😀
love the digs at mckinsey and BCG
With the amount of money they make, they have to be able to handle a jab or two 😉😀
This man speaks with such knowledge and clarity. Great video.
Glad you enjoyed it - Just nerding out and spending too much time thinking about watches. 😀😀
Great analysis. Totally agree. I won’t even walk over to the JLC section at the boutique anymore.
This is what happens ... 😀😀
If a grand sways you then you wernt in the market.
Rolex upped their prices. Same for them?
@@coldworld5 I’m also not in the market for Rolex.
High quality content indeed, thank you for the effort.
And thanks for taking the time to watch and comment. Appreciated 😃😃
I am a huge fan of JLC and agree that they really should have been up there with PP and ALS had they developed the brand properly over time from a marketing perspective. The quality is there. Dear JLC - selling your watches at Saks fifth avenue is a slap in the face to your loyal collectors who hold you in high regard and cheapens the brand !
Why would you want to pay more for a JLC? If they were to raise prices and only sell them in boutiques, they would have even less customers.
Now now. Is Saks really that bad? 😂😂😂
fully agree!! I always liked JLC but never managed to pull the trigger even when their prices was more accesible. If ou browse they website they seem to be catering to older, traditional, discreet customer... that's the segment with the real money but how often do they buy a watch so yes exclusivity is their main driver!!
Thanks for that 😀
Very interesting subject area selection and insightful analysis as always. I smiled when you hypothesised re the management consultancy company input into the pricing strategy, I can totally visualise the flawed, industry knowledge deficient scenario inputs that the consultants brought to the table:)
The summary view from me is that JLC have developed the right long term strategy brand strategy but that its a case study in flawed, rushed strategy execution.
Keep up the great work, you are truly setting a new watch channel bar👍
Thanks as always - and yes McKinsey has to get a little jab here and there. If you’ve been in the room, you know what it’s like 😀
Ah yes... The Watchmaker´s Watchmaker... May I remind you of the advice by McKinsey (I think) to Swissair to take over Belgian Sabena? Remember that one? Well, anyway: I think the JLC got the advice to milk the hell out of the thing: they even started marketing textile straps on Reversos as something valuable and aspirational. No matter that it does not really cost them one tenth (probably) of the previous, aligator strap. I also thing the JLC has another problem altogether: when was the last time they introduced something really new and interesting? If I remember properly, after Geographique, there was only the Squadra FLOP (remember Squadras?) and an endless series of hommages to earlier Reversos. The rest of the catalogue remained pretty much what it was. So, yes, they might have a new Marketing Director who probably called McKinsey on the first day in the office but I am done with my respect for them: stodgy old-fashioned three-handers and endless Reverso hommages are not the way into the future. It is the way into the oblivion. After all, I don´t really think you can live that long solely on reputation: it is not really edible and it is only an asset if it is continued and expanded. By the way: yes, it is possible to reform and survive, even their own tradition. Just look at Cartier or Bvlgari. I don´t hear anybody complaining that much about THEIR price rises... But then, maybe I am just an idiot who does not get it. 😇
Good points - totally agree on the product innovation piece and JLC shortcomings there 😀
I love how logical, methodical, and structured your analysis was. You nailed it. This move was all about positioning. 40% was probably too aggressive. They probably could've gotten away with 20-30%. My reverso I bought last year new under MSRP (at the time MSRP was $7100) is now priced at $10,300. That's an astonishing 45% increase. In their defense, when I purchased my reverso I felt like I got a bargain, underrated, and a truly amazing value proposition given quality and prestige. In their market segment I think they want to be in the same neighborhood as Blancpain, Breguet, and Piaget. They definitely want to separate themselves as a tier above Rolex, Omega, Panerai, and others. Is it fair? Kind of. Will it work? If they keep subsequent price increases on a more modest and annual basis, yes.
Thanks - Appreciate the feedback. Will try to keep it up 😀😀
A fantastic analysis; clear and based on clean economic principles.
Thanks - Glad you felt it resonated 😀😀
I collect many brands, fpj , patek , ap etc... To me JLC is an amazing value, I have the gyrotourbillon 1 and doumetre which is high horology. They are both cheap relative to what you are getting. High horology at a reasonable price. Even with price increase they are cheap relative to the competition.
No doubt in their high end you get a lot for your money compared to Pp or others 😀
Very well said and very informative. Thank you
Thanks for watching! 😀
Another best informative video explains price performance ratio and greed! I still can't believe JLC raise prices 35-42% on average yet I was told by a friend at JLC boutique to get my Polaris as prices were going thru the roof this was early 2022. I won't be buying any JLC I guess.
Go secondary market - The price drops are ridiculous on JLC 😃😃
If you dont mind me saying I am not down with this. I would rather buy pre owned than having to shell out these absurd prices. Its greed my friend... Market repositioning and greed.
“When morality comes up against profit, it is seldom that profit loses.”
― Shirley Chisholm
Have a good weekend Mike!
I would say there is nothing moral or immoral about a luxury good pricing scheme. They can ask a price and if people will still demand it then so be it. There are other customers like yourself that will refuse to pay at that price and perhaps choose a different brand, and that’s always a risk for JLC.
@@IT_Farhan Fair point! 👌👌
I’m with you ok thinking it may be time for that color-dial Polaris 👍👍
Nice breakdown, thanks.
Lol. Thanks 😂😂
Great and interesting analytical video. As for JLC, not for me, as I can't justify that level of expenditure on a watch. Ofcourse, they will raise their prices to cover those consultancy fees too 😂
Probably 😂😂😂
Best watch channel.
After Watchartsci with Bill Sanders I’d agree.
Thank you. Really!!!!! 😀😀😀
You should have more subscribers. Good takes! Keep up the good work.
I appreciate that! - I'm growing so eventually I may have a lot more. I'll try my best to make something worth watching 😀😀
Great video!! A better strategy would’ve been for JLC to “adjust” prices slowly over 3-5 years.. this is a hard pill to swallow for most first time JLC buyers (or existing customers). JLC will now have to make sure that the secondary market doesn’t get flooded with JLCs or they’ll have a hard time selling new models at the boutique. That said, JLC has always been under appreciated as a brand and something had to be done
Totally agree! - sometimes I think they just forgot to do it 😀😀😀
i think from a brand perspective, jlc is just not that exciting. there is almost zero 'sense of urgency' in acquiring a jlc - nothing really new to trigger that buying impulse, nothing that tells me the same models won't still be around in ten years time. so why should i buy jlc now - i could just put it off indefinitely (especially when the brand comes across as greedy...) and get something a bit more exciting.
higher pricing alone is not enough to reposition a brand. they need to start to 'surprise and delight' if they want to be a true luxury brand. just compare jlc with cartier and it's plain to see how lacking jlc is in the brand department, even factoring in product quality and watchmaking ability.
True. The reason why companies like Rolex and Omega are popular, is because they have come up with iconic designs. JLC (other than the Reverso) doesn't have an iconic watch design.
True point - They need something to give us a reason to pay more. That hasn't happened yet 😀😀 (for me at least)
Your channel is great - wish you a lot of success ! A tricky point is balancing content to be relevant. Sometimes too many videos are posted by content creators, which slowly (but surely) starts loosing out on the quality. I do hope you are able to keep up the quality because your analysis and narrations are great !
Back when the internet was not so dominant (say around upto 15 years ago and further beyond that), watch conversations and exposure to whats going on globally was limited to your travels or talks with friends. Watches had a more genuine connection, people wore their watches for longer and genuinely loved what they owned, be it a Casio, a domestic brand or a high-end watch; but now I feel that with so much content floating around, an average user/buyer (sometimes, including myself) gets confused very quickly and more-often-than-not wishes they had purchased something else ! Maybe, this could be a video in itself in some way - I understand it can get a little philosophical but it can be helpful in various ways. A special video maybe :)
Thanks . Really appreciated 😀😀
Excellent review of JLC´s price increase, thank you fr that!!
You're welcome 👍
Fantastic video and brilliantly researched insights and speculation. Agree with the bulk of what you said and especially your key message...I think JLC just got too greedy and 40% hike is excessive and unjustified. This could cause them more damage in the short term as their perceived value will fade...this is already happening based on watch-charts/C24 date. Thanks for putting the time in to put this insightful video together. 👏
Thanks - Glad you enjoyed it 😃😃
Always interesting to hear your take on Watch Business. Quick request: - As someone who actually tries to read the inserts and respective legends on your videos, I find it hard to read them on my smallish tablet and nigh on impossible on my phone, if it suits your editing taste, maybe blow up the font a bit more, please?
Get bigger eye balls
Thanks!
(Glad to find out that somebody actually reads them - It's usually stuff that supports an argument or references something I cut from the vid for space). - Will see what I can do in terms of making them more viewer friendly 😀😀😀👍👍
Great Video, exactly the explanation I was hoping for
Glad you found it useful 😃
I got a Reverso Tribute Blue soon it was first released. The Reverso Tributes are now boutique-only pieces, but after the first one in blue was released they were still available in regular ADs. Retail price at the time was around 7000 GBP. The AD in the Midlands offered me a discount almost without my asking. The Reverso Tribute is now a 10K+ watch at retail. I paid 6500 for mine😎
Good buy 😀😀😀
6500 from AD when it retailed over 10k??
Interesting again. Sometimes Today the positioning within the owning Group seems to be More Important than the results of one brand. Maybe They imagined loosing some Sales in the lower end at JLC but calculated for More Sales in another higher end of the brand positioned below JLC. Group over Brand alone maybe?
Possibly. Swatch group definitely cares a lot about the relative hierarchy of all these brands 😀
I loved JLC as a brand, movements and heritage but the massive price moves completely shifted my view. I was about to buy a Polaris but it just doesn’t make sense to anymore. Complete left me sour as a brand. Leadership has really screwed their reputation with this decision
For some they certainly have 😀
100% agree. Being in HR, your analysis of salary was spot-on. I had a chance before the price increase and was warned by the sale associate, one question though, whats your thoughts on asking for a cheeky discount at JLC?
Can’t hurt to ask. Will always depend on the AD but I know at least couple that are willing to discount most reversos at least 😀
really good content as usual.
Glad you think so! 😀
Excellent analysis. 2 things I’d add: the 40% gives their boutiques more wiggle room to offer discounts to longtime customers and still make their store’s sales numbers. But conversely those price hikes will deter new potential JLC from even visiting. Rolex sports models on the grey market would suddenly look right priced (and a sure bet to maintain value yrs down the line).
Why buy IWC or Panerai when you can buy JLC at not much more price and get into haute horology? Why buy other integrated sports watch from Vacheron & Piaget when the Ingenieur has the Genta Lineage? Why buy other IWC models when everyone’s eyes were on the release of the Ingenieur? They understood the proposition of JLC and Ingenieur where one is watchmakers watchmaker to PP, AP and the other has direct lineage to Gerald Genta who designed PP,AP and the Ingenieur. So the insane pricing.
Maybe because JLC is terrible at marketing their watches. When was the last time you saw a commercial or advert for a JLC watch? At least Omega is smart enough to be associated with James Bond movies. And Rolex has the name recognition. Both have iconic designs. If you take 100 random people, and ask them if they have ever heard of JLC, you might find a couple who have. And even fewer who can name a couple of their watch models.
That's JLC's thinking for sure. They think their brand can command those prices . Maybe they can😀
I think that JLC have had a wake up call. I've been looking at the Polaris for a while and felt the price rise was a bit too much for me it has made me look at alternatives. However today I was a little surprised to notice that they reduced the price a tad. I'm sure they are not going to make a noise about the reduction but it will be interesting to see where this is going
Really? I had not noticed. I will have to check out their pricing to get an updated view on them. Thanks 😃😃
Very good analysis. I would just say that reverso Tribute was around 6000€ in 2019 and is now 11400. It’s much more than 40%. Set aside it seems JLC is looking to increase its profit margin at the expense of customers : the new gold tribute reverso has a thinner cas just to save some gold , a now old outdated movement and no deploying clasp for more a price of 24.200€. It’s totally out of the market habits with other models of the same class (aka gold dress watch).
Thanks 😀😀
And yes - They’ve made some wierd choices. 😀
Yes 100% agree it’s all about positioning. With established brands, the price is not based on how much it costs to make the watch but rather how much they think they can charge taking into account where they stand compared to the competition. They asking for more because they feel they can get more for the same product 😂
Spot on 😃😃
Another super insightful video! I think the positioning alone justifies the price increase, especially considering the current horological landscape and the general price hikes among other houses. JLC is one of the few brands that does high horology, not many can claim that, so in that respect, they're not quite up there with PP and AP but right below. But 40% is a lot indeed and more subtle price increases over 3-5 years would have probably made more sense. Such an aggressive price adjustment may upset and scare away potential buyers. In addition, a lot of comments seem to imply that JLC watches don't hold their value. This is in my opinion a massive problem and it signals that the brand is not perceived as eclusive, at least not as much as JLC itself would like you to think. They will thus have to follow this move with a cohesive brand and business strategy and make sure to do all that is necessary to elevate brand perception and also find a way to avoid their watches being available in the grey market for 70% or less of retail.
Thanks and also thanks for sharing your thoughts 😀
I bought my Reverso just before the price increase. Got a 20% discount, plus an alligator strap thrown in. Easily my favourite dress watch ever.
Lucky you 😀😀😀
I can forgive the price hikes but if they're going to do that then they need to up their game going forward. Personally, I think JLC needs an aesthetic upgrade to justify the prices. Their cases (aside from the Reverso) need a facelift, aside from the ultra-thin models they could definitely put some work into having their watches thinner and more pleasing aesthetically (the Polaris and Master Control case shapes are clunky in my opinion).
They'll need to introduce some new models (integrated sports watch perhaps?). They are a Brand with elite heritage but that level of heritage comes with an added level of expectation. They made movements for AP and others, but why don't they produce a watch on that level today is a little weird.
I own 3 steel JLCs--a Reverso Duo, a Master Control Date, a Perpetual Ultra Thin. I also had a Master Chronograph with a sector dial that I regret selling. I love all of these watches but also know that I would never have bought them new at current MSRP. JLC is making a very risky bet here... Or maybe it's Richemont, not JLC. JLC used to be one of the best-kept secrets for the enthusiast collector--a bona fide high-end brand that could be had at below half the price of Lange or Vacheron. Not anymore!
Agree that it’s prob more richmont, less JLC. Despite the increases, I still think it’s the best kept secret. I bought the MC Chronograph Calendar in pink gold last month for 30k. ALS 1815 annual calendar in rose gold is 58k. So, it’s still nearly 1/2price.
There you go 😀
Glad I got my Duoface before the price hike. I'd still buy it right now if I didn't back then. Love JLC❤
Good choice! 😀
The same has been said when Omega done the same 10 years ago and continued to do so , value and luxury never and shouldn't go together and JLC deserves higher pricing but management should know how to do it right.
Yup - Doing it all in (almost) one go is just reckless 😀😀
So they are pretty much saying. We don’t want people with relatively down to earth income buying our goods. Sorry but when my salary rises ( and it does ) I will remember this snobbery and will avoid the brand.
They were so much better in the past with the master compressor sports watches and much more interesting reverso’s, and of course the og 1931 reverso. Now they suck so bad, just a boring snobby brand.
I think so, yes 😀😂
I was planning on pulling the trigger this year on a JLC for mt 40th birthday and couldn't believe the price change in store. Will never buy from this brand again.
I just had this case with a Master Thin Moon. The price has risen from 9,700 to 12,800. I asked myself the same questions as you, and it was clear to me from the start that it was all about the prestige of the brand. So exactly what you suspected. But now to consider whether the JLC could harm. I don't think so, quite the opposite. The watch market is changing much faster today than it used to. And the time will come when brands like Brequet, JLC and Blancpain will be at the top of their game again. Just like Richard Mille's hype has just calmed down. RM definitely has to deliver. JLC, on the other hand, as a watch brand, simply has a killer story that stands above everything else.That's why, in my opinion, JLC had no choice but to reposition itself, and the only way they could do that was through price. Because they already build excellent clockworks and watches.
Possibly. One can hope that JLC and Blancpain get a revival 😀😀😀
JLC is not Rolex. Price increases and subsequent depreciation of JLC watches makes buying one largely unattractive....Shame. would have brought one myself had it not been the price hike....Good bye JLC......
I agree that price increases are a deal breaker for most people. But you shouldn't buy a watch thinking about depreciation. You should buy a watch because you love the style, and it is well made.
40% price hike! JLC is taking the buyers for fools. Who do they think they are? Buyer boycott. If JLC is not careful, it will end up as the next Frank Muller!
You’re likely not the only one 😀
Such a good analysis, as you rightly mentioned only part of price increase is driven by costs, majority is correct positioning of watches among their competitors.
if IWC or Zenith can charge 10K and you position your products as a superior ones then you have to price them accordingly. If it is the right move or not i guess their revenue will tell - which I assume is not public info?!
Glad you found my vid worth your time 😀😀
The issues is all these brands are fighting to be the best brand at this price point. I was at a trade show and a guy had an Omega seamaster. During the conversation it was asked for the reason he bought that watch especially with other option at that price range. If these brands are not willing to risk new designs then they will try to find market shares in a certain price range. Sad but true.
Yup 😀
i would humbly add pricing includes fwd +/- best/worst model estimates which are only estimates at the end of the day
true enough 😀
What is the watch at 11:05 please?
JLC has become very innovative recently with what they did to the reverso adding more features and complications, small second, movement and dial skeletonisation, the chronograph, if made of standard materials its worth the purchase since you don’t buy luxury but just a tool watch with excellent craftmanship and outstanding precision..
Reverso chrono for me 😀
Great analysis.
Thank you 😀
Very insightful!
Glad you think so!
Great video - suspect your price range for watches with entry level luxury features has not changed significantly.
At one time produced strategy charts, with revenues forecasts covering next 3 years - based on conservative market analysis from a reputable company.
Future market share was a plasible guess. Perhaps the in-house strategy group have been side-lined 🙂
Would love to see a thorough explanation of their long term strategy with benefits and market dangers (at least 12 pages) . . . what happens if sales tank?
The backup data would also be good . . . The price hike could possible be justified if the have some super luxury NEW products which will reposition the brand.
If JLC are trying to gentle boil the frog, hoping the consumer does not notice - price hikes of thousands will cause a reaction
IF they bring out some banging watches, they are forgiven. I just don't think it's in the cards 😀😀😀
I really enjoy your channel and I don't own anything more than $200 but was gifted a nice JLC Atmos clock that belonged to my Grandfather so have been looking into their brand more and appreciate your insight into the market and JLC's positioning... I am sure their prestige and pricing is warranted given their history and craftsmanship (this Atmos clock is still working and keeping good time even though its 50 years old)... but hard to not feel like their prices preclude a lot of people who would be interested in their story/product from being able to experience the same level of craftsmanship as people did 50 years ago (I work at the same company my Grandfather did)
Thanks for sharing 😃😃
Manufacturers that try to exercise pricing power late in an inflation cycle almost universally suffer. JLC will be no exception. It has to be done early or it’s a disaster for the business.
Relevant point 👍👍
The main reason for the price increases is plain and simply tanking sales. Positioning is just the superficial justification.
They're stilling making a bucket load I think but would be curious to see what actually moves in their inventory 😀😀
@@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch A well managed business in a collapsing market will shrink himself in an orderly manner without going bankrupt. In the watch industry we have actually very few examples of that. Most brands we see now are actually just the logos of already gone companies. I call them "decal sellers" because in a way they just sell the decal with a particular name. They are not really companies with a product strategy of their own. You should recognise how few brands get assigned to milk the people with more money than brain and some others try to expand the appeal of the more reasonable broader public. Right now.... The biggest market is Asia. The technology and almost complete production moved already there. More and more local asian brands are gaining a solid reputation there. I bet over the long run they will be better able to cater to the taste of the local customer.
Yes, Reverso is quite iconic, but Polaris is nowhere near as popular/recognizable as Seamaster/Submariner or even Fifty Fathoms. Common people don’t recognize JLC and enthusiasts would just go for the secondary market or other high horology brands.
Exactly 😀
Fine by me them getting more exclusive. I think that they can do their best work when they aren’t trying to have broad appeal. And it’s probably worth remembering that the Reverso was discontinued for a period in the brand’s life.
You don't get more exclusive by just raising prices. In order to be more exclusive, they would have to limit the supply of new watches out there in the market.
Balancing exclusivity and broad brand recognition is difficult. I think they haven't quite mastered it 😀😀
I love JLC, was planning to purchase a duoface this year, but with the price increase I was turned off. Disgusted by such an agressive increase and then in Sept increased again. By principle I won’t buy it from an AD. It’ll be my first watch I ever purchase from the secondary market. It’ll now be part of the story when I talk about the watch.
Totally agree and I'm in the same position. I will never buy a JLC at retail now because they aren't worth the money.
Many feel the way you do, I think 😀
You think what about blancpain price now ?
Very good vidéo tank you for the information
You are welcome 😀
I m waiting or by a polaris because the price ?
Love this Polaris Chronograph!
Memovox for me 😀
IF you want a nice chrono, you have some nice options. Zenith, Omega, Rolex, JLC. Rolex is out in my view for a number of factors. Zenith El Primero is 12-20k depending on style/materials but a solid choice. Omega great value in the Speedy and I would also include Chrono versions of the 300M. They are in the 10k range. JLC is above each in terms of quality/prestige? Sure. IWC chrono 5-10k? I do not think their price being above these are too far out.
Thanks for sharing! 😀
We have a local dealers group where a poor chap has been trying to sell his gold Reverso. It has been price dropped from almost 30k CAD to 17k as of today. No one wants to touch it.
Ouch 😀😀😀
I have two friends seriously looking at JLC. One was after the Reverso and one looking at a Master Control. Because of the price hikes they are both out now.
I was also looking at the Mason Control but not any more. Looking at the Grey Polaris but the price hike is making me look at other options. The boutique did offer me a black strap as an incentive but still struggling to press the button
They went too far, too quick but I can see why. Expect more rises next year as they continue to reposition themselves, and rightly so. They're absolutely class watchmakers that sit above so many brands, they need to be priced accordingly.
Another cracking video, really enjoyed it.
If they go up more, I'm getting priced out too.... 😂
I was actually looking at a JLC for my next piece…with their price increases, I wasn’t far from a Breguet, which to me was superior. So that’s what I got instead.
Forget about second-hand prices of (newish) JLC watches. In Asia (Hong Kong, Korea, Japan, etc) new JLC watches are heavily discounted (about 30% to 40%) by official dealers. Upping the official list price only means a bigger discount off the official list price, even though the final sale price may still go up, but by less than 40%. Probably JLC will make more money in the short-term, but it also destroys its brand equity. Tudor is facing similar problem, its pricing has been artifically boosted by Rolex (by requiring customers to purchase Tudor items, in order to qualify for a Rolex quota). No that supply of Rolex is plentiful, no one is 'required' to buy Tudor any more. Disocunt of most new Tudor models are exceeding 40% off list price.
Interesting perspective , especially the asian angle 😀😀😀
Tudor is just being hyped by UA-camr in pr payroll mostly. Outside of that if you look at Tudor market share it's negligible not even closed to logines.
Tudor isn't even in the top 10.
Logines its competition is number 7 worldwide wkt6 5.6% market share. Tudor has less than 1.5%.
Why? Greed. Salaries are most of their costs. Bad decision by JLC. I think they probably already regret it. They have an unrealistic view of their brand, and are Pricing themselves right out of the market. Maybe into watch oblivion. 🥂
They are in it to make as much money as possible, yes 😀😀😀
JLC's price hikes are outrageous.
True 😃
All the while Swatch group has garnered tremendous attention at the sub $500 level with the Swatch collabs. These collabs are fun and bring in younger crowd who might be getting into watches. In essence planting watch seeds for young customers. Honestly, a lot of brands are shooting themselves in the foot with all the price hikes, and I think more and more people will be happy buying at the $5k and below price points given exclusivity does not have to be at ridiculous price points.
Good point - I do think there is a trend towards people focusing on more affordable watches 😀
I love JLC watches and have owned many, but have always bought on secondary market. No good reason to pay AD prices for their watches and you pretty much always take a hit selling. JLC is a brand you own for love not economics.
Heard! 😀
I suspect that demand for JLC is far more elastic that JLC thought, so by raising prices they will lower demand significantly more than the increase in profit will support to maintain their ROI. And when you raise your price by 40% you are probably going to cause an increased demand for higher wages in your workforce, after all if the watch is worth more than the labor that drives that value is worth more. And over time the return to capital vs return to labor ratio tends to remain at about one third to two thirds. JLC has now perturbed that ratio with a greater return to capital.
That’s my thinking too. Overestimating their attractiveness irrespective of price 😀
i was in the market for the JLC DIVE WATCH ...i even called their main distribution center in North America...this was before summer. They clued me of the price change...i was shocked by the amount of increase...i was going in July to Malaysia and i knew their currency was favorable to the dollar so i set up an appointment with their boutique thinking i was going to get at least a price more reasonable to the previous one. unfortunately that JLC was still $10,800 versus original 9,200. They did not even want to negotiate while their store in the high end mall was a ghost town. i see this as a money grab...too bad... my money while there went elsewhere
This is what happens 😀
It also seems to me that the same watches with a gold case go up exponentially. You're looking at probably $1000 US or so dollars in gold. Then they're going to act like it takes $8000 more $ in machining to make it into a case lol.
Totally disagree that they didn’t increase their marketing spend, unless you have numbers to back that up? If it aligns with their corporate strategies, why not? You can see more JLC boutiques, prints, online than before. That’s all marketing.
Fair question:
Factually we know the Richemonts central functions which include marketing support reduced their overall cost base from 2022 to 2023 by 2%.
Gross operating profit margin increased more than gross profit. Marketing is typically included after gross costs. Since gross op profit grew more it logically stands to reason that the overall costs including marketing were same or grew less than other costs (page 152-160 of richemont annual report)
Having read the entire report, “cost consciousness” and “cost controlling” is mentioned consistently. Main cost drivers are mentioned as manufacturing, materials.
As for boutiques: That’s not marketing. That’s a point of sale and therefor asset related.
Online is cheap and their shift to D2C represents a move to a space that is less expensive overall - which in part has driven up their profit
In short. Nothing in the actual numbers indicates any increase in overall spend relative to sales growth.
The full 160 page annual report is available for download. It is of course for richemont as a group, not JLC but the logical conclusion would be that all brands are treated identically in terms of cost focus and priorities.
Cheers 😀
.
Excellent!
Thx!
I am a big JLC fan and owned 8 of their watches over the years. Actually, I still have 3 of JLC at the moment. I paid full retail price for one of them that is because it is a 250 pieces limited edition. For everything else, I either bought a NOS one or second hand pieces. I paid usually around 50% off retail. I mean, those are impressive watches, but their second hand value, even NOS value are just very low. JLC is sitting in a strange position where people don't want it because it does not have the reputation of Rolex, or people don't think it has the "true" value of PP or AP. I don't think raising prices of their products would help at all, because most of the people, from the way I see it, would still careless of the brand.
I have been offered a new JLC Polaris Chrono (black dial) at 30% off MSRP by my AD. I love the watch, and I feel it’s good value even inspite of the price increases, as it’s more or less in line with gray market (getting it for $10k). Thoughts?
Can't make that kind of buying decision for you of course. At 10K I would personally, and I emphasise personally consider it. I'm not a fan of the bracelet but the watch itself is quite attractive. You gotta wear it and figure it out for youself 😀
@@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch so I’ll add that I’ve owned the JLC Polaris date for 5 years, and absolutely love the brand. I’m getting it in the leather strap as I’m not a bracelet fan either! I’m pretty convinced at this point, just wanted another expert to tell me I’m making the right call, you know how it goes 😀
I like JLC the brand because of the reverso my favorite watch. This is clearly positioning and is a risky long term play. Its a gamble and maybe a good move when we look back 10 years from now. A major world recession will make this dicey in the short term. My opinion is that this may work but they have to produce less watches and make the watches more exclusive. In the end the product will decide the future of JLC. The new reverso chrono and the polaris chrono look intresting. The polaris chrono has to be thinner though and the reverso chrono would be better in a smaller case. But thats just me and I will reserve judgement when I can actually try then on. We all know the prices will be cheaper in the secondary market so if you love these watches you can get then cheaper with patience.
Being exclusive does not guarantee success. I think JLC needs to produce more watches aimed at younger buyers. If they were to produce a couple of dive watches, it would help give their brand a fresh look.
@@nerychristian The Polaris is their dive watch line. They are trying to move higher in the hierarchy of luxury watch brands so exclusivity will be important at much higher prices. Will they be successful, I hope they manage the transition because they are turning off many enthusiasts. Time will tell!!
@@horaciomisa7625 Exclusivity alone will not improve a brand. That might work for other types of products. But watches are different. The main things that watch collectors look at when deciding to buy a watch is price, styling, and build quality. They also look at resell value. I don't know many people who are even aware of the JLC brand. And even those who are aware of the brand don't get excited about it because their watch designs are not as appealing as a Rolex, or Omega, or Grand Seiko. I think the only JLC watches that look appealing to me are the gold moon phase watches. But then I see the price, and I look elsewhere. And in this economy, people either don't want to spend too much money on a watch, or they feel that it is not a good idea to flaunt their money or luxury items. Burglaries and thefts are on the rise all over the country.
Good points - I totally agree that their succes rests on the quality of their releases.
I’ve seen the reverso chrono, and it’s not for me. The fumé on fumé is too much. 😀
The difference between market price and retail just got larger. Poor move for brand value.
JLC, a brand that has been talked about by enthusiasts deserving “Holy Trinity “ status over lets say AP, have been underpriced for a long time. The price increases are not so surprising, rather how quickly they went up 40% is.
Well done
Thanks ! 😀
So basically it boils down to, IWC and Panerai being too expensive for what they are... but the group "can't" drop their prices, so they said we will just hike up JLC prices in one go hurraaaa ... and I am no longer keen on their products at these prices.
New CEO probably worried to ruffle some feathers by saying no to the insane price hikes. 😂
lol 😂😂
JLC is legendary. The current prices ARE justified. But the rapid short 40% increase doesn't feel so so it won't be just the mere bottom entry buyers turned off but probably the bottom 33%. I know, I'm one of them. Where was mgmt 3 years ago, 4 years ago etc. when clearly they weren't charging enough. They'll have to endure this transition period and will be interesting to see gray market which I never consider, I like my watches new, but, would consider for a JLC. I'm considering another brand (besides in line for more Rolex's) which is a great value but won't say he he as I suspect they are do for an increase so I'm going to snap one up in the next 60 days.