Is John Williams a Thief?
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- Опубліковано 29 вер 2024
- The Film Composer, John Williams, has been accused of plagiarism, theft, of stealing every theme he has ever written.
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Does John Williams steal? Many claim that he steals his themes...
This video looks at the music to Home Alone (the classic Christmas film), as well as Star Wars, and Jaws, to consider arguments that John Williams stole his themes - particularly from Korngold and Kings Row, and Dvorak and his ninth symphony.
The composer of such film soundtrack (s) as Saving Private Ryan, Schindler's List, Jurassic Park, Superman, E.T., and many others, is one of the most well loved composers here - in other videos I've talked about his leitmotifs, themes, and thematic development - here I talk about the concept of 'theft' or plagiarism in film music, and whether these arguments are sound.
Great video once again. If I may venture an opinion, I think temp tracks have had more of an effect on the cinematic landscape than most people realize. Very often, the temp track serves as cadence for a scene during the editing process. It literally drives the cuts an editor will make. Film music has a specific dynamic range and it occupies certain frequencies that may or may not limit the use of dialogue and sound effects. This is why film music is written around dialogue and sfx.
These filmmakers in the 60s and 70s were using music that was never designed to accompany film. They drew on their own musical literacy and moulded scenes around temp scores that were drawn from the work of great musicians who wrote music for its own sake, so when a composer came along to compose the actual score, they had all this extra tonal space to fill in the soundscape. That's why so many movies from that era (and yes in the 80s too) have such rich and memorable scores.
Today, temp tracks are usually take from other films and tend to be disproportionately composed in very high and very low frequency ranges (so as to not interfere with the range of the human voice). This means film scores start to homogenize since each new film's soundscape and cadence draws upon the last rather than drawing from outside sources in the world of film composition. Then this feeds back into the editing since all the temp scores start to have the same rhythms and tonal properties.
The result? Everything starts to feel the same. The line between a movie and the genre it belongs to starts to dissolve because they are all created using the same set of artistic tools. You get more dialogue because all the temp tracks are specifically composed and equalized to not interfere with the human voice. Music becomes wallpaper rather than a central narrative component of film art. Remember, films were once silent. There was a time when the only dialogue was the work of a composer. It is fundamental to the cinematic form.
Wow - amazing comment! I'm going to pin it for others to read
Love it or hate it. That's is one of the most unique things about The Last Jedi's score. Rian did not temp track his film, rather he asked John, to write the themes, then he edited the film
afterwards.
Correction, the film was temp-tracked, they just didn't do a spotting session.
'In lieu of a traditional spotting session with director Rian Johnson, Williams was provided a temp track of music from his previous film scores as a reference for scoring The Last Jedi.'
@@lukerope1906 That correction is most interesting... I wonder how John WIlliams felt working with that.
@Tom Lewis How nice of you to summarize the "Every Frame a Painting" video on the topic for us.
@@Reggie1408 Ahahah I post the same comment without seeing yours !
The composer that John Williams steals from most is John Williams.
Indeed
Schindler’s list/wedwig theme.. are almost identicle
Not the first and certainly not the last composer to do that.
Watch both second starwars and harry potter movies
Given the half dozen replies this comment got, I should clarify that it's not a criticism. He's my favourite composer for film and probably favourite overall, classical and otherwise, beneath a few guys who died centuries ago. He has his ways, and because his work is so well-known and memorable it's hard not to start hearing his favourite intervals, harmonic concepts and chord progressions throughout the oeuvre. The E.T. score often sounds like it's about to become Star Wars, some of his Star Wars sounds like Minority Report, a lot of his most famous character themes start with the same interval and Anakin's Theme shares a lot with his piece for Rose and Finn from The Last Jedi (with the underlying chords appearing at least five times that I've noticed in various of his scores). I could go on.
Criticising him for having such a unique voice in composition and orchestration that he's easy to recognise would be like saying "Freddie Mercury's great, but I always know it's HIM", and it would never be my aim.
And then you have all the lesser-known stuff, not performed so much, which doesn't sound like him.
I know... John Williams likes these Composers..
Holst, Walton, Prokofiev, Bloch, Stravinsky, Hindemith, Martin, etc...
and it's a GREAT list of composers to like.
I myself consider Hindemith and Prokoviev to be two of the most important influences on my own music.
Don’t forget Howard Hanson. The ET score would not exist without Hanson’s work. And Korngold’s the King’s Row greatly contributing to Star Wars’ Main Title.
something something its not plagiarism if you borrow from multiple sources.
So without those old composers we wouldn't have the movies and games we have today. And the movies and genres that copy those movies would not exist. Then there wouldn't be them bootleg movies we like to see.
I’d add Wagner to the list. Not only because the imperial march sounds like the Ride of Valkyries. But also because in Star Wars, Williams uses the repeated theme system, aka leitmotifs, which is most associated with Wagner.
we stand on each others shoulders and see further, nothing is original, everything we do is a departure from a point learned, passively or consciously, even my musical accidents are guided as I progress from experience. clickbait ugh!
The Corngold King's Row comparison is obvious, you want to know why, because George Lucas, on camera talking about conversations with Williams, literally told him to use Corngold as scaffolding for Star Wars music making.
The Love Theme and big chunks of other songs sound very similar to Venus - The Bringer of Peace by Holst. I would love to get your opinion on that.
The love theme from Superman definitely springs to mind.
And... In "Aunt Marge's waltz" by Williams (from Harry Potter), there are a clear refrences to Rossini's "La Gazza Ladra" overture: The using of the woodwindes, the motive in the trombones, and the chords at the coda...
You may forgot Gustav Holst Planets as a big source of inspiration. :P But yes, even composers like Mozart and Beethoven "stole" complete melodys - and make something new about it. It was completly normal at all time.
My father in law was a musician in Burlesque and Vaudeville theaters. He taught my wife there are a handful of major chords to evoke love and happiness, a few for innocence and about six to ten minor chords that evoke dread or doom. Almost any background for a stage character could then be improvised.
If you listen to the symphonic score for Star Trek TOS, "The Doomsday Machine". The Machine's killing and stalking theme is nearly identical to Jaws a decade later. Remove the Desilu lush brass, and you have nearly the same phrasing. The fictional space machine is basically a shark. A mindless automated killing machine.
This is not to say it was ripped off, it was just improvised using the same stage musician trick. Johnny Williams did start out as a sitcom and commercial jingle composer in the 60s.
Williams is not a thief, he is respectful to great music and references it to that extent.
3:11 The Imperial March is 100% just the start of Lew Stone's music to Al Bowlly's "My Woman" (1932). 😒
Twist: John Williams is Tchaikovsky
@Morahman7vnNo2 that's a hmmmmm right there.
No.
Was thinking the same lol.
Maybe he is a reincarnation of Tchaikovsky?
Nah
Exactly! John Williams, like many other composers, gets inspired and gets licks from other composers, especially the big names like Tchaikovsky, Stravinsky and Dvorak. This is not theft, there are only 7 notes on a scale and 12 notes in total, so of course there's going to be similarities between melody lines. There are also certain intervals that make you feel a certain feeling, so it is natural for many composers to use the same intervals (like the minor 2nd in Jaws and the perfect 5th in the Star Wars theme). This is not copying or stealing, like you said, composers can take the same intervals and start with the same sequence of notes, yet turn it into something completely different and unique that no one has ever heard before.
Well said, thank you
sorry but this video is biased, cherrypicked and WRONG. he took the weakest examples of comparisons that people barely bring up and could just be said to be inspiration and comptely ignored the real examples where he copies note for note
this video here covers clear examples of plagiarism(and theres many more examples out there) ua-cam.com/video/b9IV5u9iwuQ/v-deo.html
@@veronicaconnolly4542 Funny, this is the exact same comment, repeated (rather: pasted), word for word! And its misrepresenting the very same link, in the exact same way....
A little self-plagiarism perhaps?
compare the music from Star Trek the Doomsday machine to the theme from Jaws.
Veronica connolly no
Williams obviously was inspired by other composers and pieces of music, but I don't think he's a thief. As an artist myself, I am inspired heavily by others, and I joyfully take ideas and themes from other works I admire. I don't fault him for thinking that bits from this or that could benefit him in some way. After all, nothing is wholly original.
Additionally... no mention of Gustav Holst's The Planets? Listen to that, and you'll not only hear similarities to many pieces from Star Wars, but Indiana Jones and Superman.
Speaking of Superman, the idea for his fanfare came directly from an early Universal Studios intro theme.
In summation to your video, you should note that one or two references could be a coincidence... but Williams makes it apparent he sifts and takes what he needs.
As a kid I thought Holst's Planets WAS Star Wars!
I was so surprised that the clear reference to Mars in the Imperial March wasn’t the major point of the video. It’s the most clear inspiration in my opinion.
I wouldn’t call Williams a “thief”. He took these other works as a starting point and built very original content from them. But he definitely wasn’t always completely original. He definitely took ideas and suggestions from previous composers.
John Williams is the most incredible and talented thief I have ever heard of.
Wattabout Hans Zimmer
Legend....
But you have heard of him.
but he's not a thief
R K Sarathy Hans is a kiddo
He has no talent whatsoever...
I'm surprised no one mentioned Gustav Holst. *Cough, cough* The Planets *cough, cough.*
What Williams excels at, in my opinion, above all other things, is hitting cues with exactly the right sound at exactly the right time. To use a controversial example, look at the battle of Crait track off of The Last Jedi soundtrack. You can listen to that, and understand exactly what is going on without the film even playing. All you need is a passing familiarity with the leitmotifs used in Star Wars. A thief could never do that.
Say what you will about the films themselves, but the scores are almost always at the very least great if Williams is involved.
@@a_fine_edition2746 except for Rise of Skywalker, probably the worst score in the franchise.
All creatives are “thieves” . Some are low level thinkers others high level.
@@dustinakadustin He scored it nice and proper actually. Then they cut all the new music and mixed the scenes with old stuff. Very dissapointing that he didnt get a say like he always had.
@@nikoladekovski4611 well he did yeah but we'll never hear it.
Thank you for this video! I did my master's thesis partly on John Williams' career with particular focus on Star Wars. He was greatly influenced by many great composers and was very good at adapting directors' temp tracks to innovative and original themes. I personally like this kind of composing: taking what exists and exploring and developing it further. There can be no doubt that Williams developed his own "voice" composing for television and cinema for more than half a century! Side note: George Lucas originally wanted programmatic classical music for Star Wars (exactly like 2001: Space Odyssey) - it was Spielberg who introduced him to Williams and I don't think anyone has ever looked back. :)
“Lesser composers borrow, great composers steal.”
- Stravinsky
?
TS Eliot wants his quote back, but I'm sure he'd appreciate the flattery. :D
he just happened to steal from stravinsky lol
@@danielled168 Read the op. ;)
Seriously have to say,Stravinsky was a really great stealer,his early and midultly music are all about steal.
Great theme , i think almost every composer today take some "inspiration" from others sometimes more sometimes less but John Williams is the last person I could call a thief. What he does is simply inspirations and similar patterns that he draws from the greatest composers of classical music. I know that it is possible to look at it from different sides and everyone has a different opinion about where the ispiration ends and the theft begins. I think that I could point out many others who in my opinion sometimes cross this border much more.
I'm pretty sure every composer before Stravinsky (just referring to the common practice period as an example) borrowed elements or were inspired by every composer before them, even Mozart and Beethoven.
@@1685Violin Classical masters all studied A LOT their predecessors (Bach studied Pachelbel, Mozart studied Bach, Beethoven studied Handel, Mozart and so on). Also, whatever is your field of study, you develop patterns from what you studied. So it'll always be inspired from someone else when you can only study works from others composers ! That said, all musicians use the same tools and yet music have no boundaries so there is no excuse for plagarism itself or to a "too inspired" idea reminding another composer.
"The true artist is not proud, he unfortunately sees that art has no limits; he feels darkly how far he is from the goal; and though he may be admired by others, he is sad not to have reached that point to which his better genius only appears as a distant, guiding sun" - Beethoven
I thought it was common knowledge that Lucas used King's Row, the Strawinski, etc... as part of the temp track and insisted Williams imitate them as closely as possible.
Thank-you, by the way, for bringing up that ludicrous accusation regarding the New World and Jaws.
It's not ludricrous, but I think he ripped off Stravinsky more, especially past the opening bars.
Years ago I read somewhere in an Empire Strikes Back CD sleeve that Lucas wanted the music of Star Wars to be the liaison between a galaxy far away and Earth. That we, as an audience, may relate to that world through the music. He wanted the music to sound at home and not completely foreign so that we feel at home and can relate more. It makes sense that it sound like the music we know and love.
It was actually John Williams' idea that the soundtrack should be grounded in classic Western musical expression.
Star Wars is pop culture trash. I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with it, but let's not pretend otherwise.
Williams is thief as many others American Composers except México, South América and Central América
This is nonsense. One can make music sound earthly without necessarily taking a lot from previously existing works…
A few points...using A New Hope as a location for "theft" is ridiculous because Lucas originally wanted Holst (The Planets) and Stravinskii similar to how Kubrick wanted existing classical music (his temp track) in 2001. Plus, it is worth noting that a big part of Williams's early career was arranging Korngold, so he was definitely familiar with his stuff (some of my very favorite film music!). And I really don't think Han and the Princess is trying to sound like Chaikovskii or was temped to that (I don't think any of the later Star Wars were temped at all, but I could be wrong). The initial contour is the same, but I strongly suspect the contour is inspired more by Leia's theme (just as the opening of Anakin and Padme's doomed love theme is...just with a minor 6th instead of a major 6th).
*Tchaikovsky
@@typo1345
His name in Russian is Чайковский. I prefer modern the transliteration of "ч" as "ch" instead of the 19th century English transliteration "tch" (after all, that's what Ч sounds like!). Transliterating и and й and the masculine nominative adjective ending -ий has always presented English speakers with great difficulty. I'd prefer to use the Library of Congress standards here. I'd rather just write Чайковский (and the names of every Slavic composer) because Slavic sounds really are only captured in Cyrillic, but people who don't read Cyrillic wouldn't know who that is.
@@bencostello7435 I get that, I'm a connoisseur of grammar and am knowledgeable of Russian Cyrillic, but I prefer English and French which use the 'Tch' translation
@@typo1345
English transliterated "Ч" as "Tch" only really in the 19th century (some employed it until the 1920's). Nobody would ever write Tchekov (or Tchekhov), for instance, so I don't like using "Tchaikovsky"
@@bencostello7435 Well, to each his own ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
…Except that even when it’s not a “Pastiche” John Williams never acknowledges anyone, ever. What I’ve noticed is that Williams will be careful to navigate his plagiarism with material still copyrighted (giving himself plausible deniability) but then goes all the way with material in the public domain, sometimes NOTE-FOR-NOTE.
I find this kind of defense of plagiarism to be lazy and overly sentimental to figures you remember as a child. All too often you give refuge to thieves by relegating this to merely what artists do. “Pastiche”? Yeah, right!
Of course the general public has little to no knowledge of classical music so all the influences and references used by film composers go completely over their heads anyway.
They don't make the connections consciously, but it speaks to them because they sense a familiarity with it.
OMG you are sooooo cool your not part of the “general public”
@@razorcoolguy7692 Everyone knows that classical music isn't popular in mainstream media compared to pop music or whatever. Go be sarcastic somewhere else.
@@321findus I prefer compositions from prior centuries, like the works of Guillaume de Machaut, one of the greatest 14th-century composers. Medieval music is even more ignored.
You must be one of those people who feels if you're not constantly promoting yourself as better than everyone around you, that you're nothing. Give it a rest. You're perfectly OK even if you're not better than the rest of the world.
John Williams pretty much used Gustav Holst’s “The Planets” for every Star Wars Movie. Not borrowed....but straight up stole.
I may add that in some occasions for Williams it seems that the pastiche has become a downright willing homage. Take for instance the scene where the Falcon enters the Death Star's hangar. The music is amazingly similar to Holst's "The Planets". However when one thinks about it not only the piece seems to be an obvious choice for Star Wars, but also the specific theme chosen is the part on "Mars, the bringer of war". Well I can think of no better piece to suit the approach to the Death Star and its awe.
Skywalker's theme straight out of Schoenberg's Pélleas und Melisande, op. 5
The accusations against John Williams are silly. If one truly delves into the music of any composer they will find the exact same things to be true. The unhealthy obsession with "originality" and "artistic integrity" are how we got to things like the Second Viennese School of Music, a style which itself has now become known as "derivative" or "repetitive". (not trying to badmouth that style of music, some great things have come of it, but it's also caused it's share of problems.)
Composers just can't win these days. John Williams is unoriginal, Christopher Rouse is too loud, Krzysztof Penderecki is unintelligible... But to me, all of these composers are amazing!
It's like when people criticise Nolan's films of being "pretentious". Would you prefer dumb, easy entertainment?
You can't make gorgeous, memorable music without reminding someone of SOMETHING, even if the original composer hasn't heard that other piece or wasn't consciously aware of any connection!
It's like anything else: when you actually listen to the songs by a certain artist you "thought" sounded like (insert other artist name here), you realize that this artist is not at all like the other artist. This is true for anything.
Exactly. WHO DOESN'T HEAR THE LOVE SOUNDS (LEIA AND HAN) when people are about to kiss.
@@Gretchaninov To "remind" one of something is totally different than an absolute verbatim use of an truly original work!! All of the major classical composers, Beethoven, Bach, Brahms, Scarlatti, Rachmaninoff for example, had totally distinct and truly original masterpieces! One did not 'remind' you of the other!
@@jerometaylor4243 I agree. But A LOT of casual listeners can hear a few notes and immediately be "reminded" of another piece of music. In that sense, even if some of Williams' music is just as powerfully original as the greats you mention, it will still "remind" people of other things. Much of Beethoven's music probably "reminds" people of Mozart's music, even among scholars, to some degree.
Teacher: you plagarised this essay
Me: issa _pastiche_
For me, picking out the classical influences in modern film compositions is half the fun! People like Williams and the late Jerry Goldsmith have admitted in interviews who some of their inspirations were for particular pieces. Williams use of lemotif and french horns is so apparent; it's practically Wagnerian.
Does John Williams think no one has ever heard of Holst’s Planets or Tchaikovsky’s Nutcracker? Of course not. So there is no “theft.” There is only homage.
This is an excelent analysis, I hope youtube doesen't take part of it as an copyright violation
John Williams is my favourite film composer. However, "The director made me steal it" is an exceedingly poor argument to excuse derivative work. Not that there is something wrong with being heavily inspired by other artists, but if you don't call a spade a spade then you are an apologist. John Williams is obviously not a "thief" but to denying his numerous blatantly obvious inspirations would be silly.
Excellent analysis, I agree with everything you said! It’s too easy to look at these select examples at FACE VALUE and just cast him off as a plagiarist. It takes further analysis and a deeper understanding of what a film composer is to fully appreciate the compositional caliber of John Williams. People who try to reduce his 60+ years of work into 5 minutes of music that he “stole” are just looking for someone to belittle to make themselves feel better. Thanks for the video, I thought it was very insightful and well produced and researched.
Bravo!
This is the genius of JW. He so fully understands the language of music that he can use it to speak to the audiences as if with a native accent. He's used that knowledge of music to craft themes that seem timeless, as if they've always existed. A child only has to hear Indiana Jones or Star Wars once and they will hum those tunes again and again for years.
There are thousands of scores out there, and it is impossible for each and every score to be completely unique unto itself. Composers, like most artists are inspired by their peers or those that came before them. They emulate them and revere them, and as such sometimes the styles and impressions of those people reflect in the output of the artists. The only case of "theft" that I remember that made headlines was Tyler Bates and his score for "300". He got in trouble (or the studio did) for using work from Elliot Goldenthal's score to "Titus".
In the Director's Cut of "Troy", Wolfgang Petersen in his stupidity butchered James Horner's score and used music from Horner and Gabriel Yared (probably to appease Yared's fans who were pissed that he was replaced). However, the Hector / Achilles fight scene music was replaced by Danny Elfman's music from "Planet of the Apes."
I loved your video and you are spot on. John Williams does emulate styles and thematic materials from classical masters yet his compositions are completely original. Mozart, Beethoven and every other great composer has borrowed styles, themes, chord progressions using the fundamental building blocks of music. There are only 12 notes and 11 rhythmic sets in common time if your lowest denominator is 16th. John Williams is not a thief but a genius. He is the greatest composer of our day. Only ignorant trolls would accuse him of theft. That would be like accusing Victor Hugo of stealing because he used the same letters from the alphabet that an Author before him did.
Thanks for this very accurate analysis. I had heard those accusations a while ago and thought they were a bit strong but couldn't really figure out how easy and frankly a bit dishonest they actually were... In my mind, John Williams is the greatest film score composer of the last century and I believe some less known pieces of his work on the first trilogy and on the Superman or Indiana Jones movies, while maybe derivative from other composers' work, are truly beautiful, expressive, emotional and at the very least efficient to support the director's vision... So thanks again, anything John Williams related is interesting to me, if you have more analysis like this!
Though I agree with much of what you said I dod believe Ennio Morricone may be the greatest : not only did he with a few others defined what modern soundtracks sound like, he also used many un-orthodox ways of producing music and absolutely each and every one of his themes are instantly recognizable !
@@Cancoillotteman Hi, I agree Morricone's themes are very moving and musically, orchestrally pioneering while Williams is more classic in his approach. But it's more in the other pieces that I find Williams extraordinary, he can be really creative in things other than themes. And I don't remember any striking "sub-music" from Morricone (although, I'll admit I'm not a professional of his scores)... But thanks for the remark anyway!
@ Shout out to Bernard Herrmann, Max Steiner and Miklos Rosza, for old times sake.
Tom Lewis indeed!
Arthur Aouillé I don’t get why you think he’s more creative when his approach is more classical and he’s the one more often found to be inspired by others. I am no musician and my layman’s ears find Ennio-Morricone’s music more unusual, original and uplifting.
John Williams said himself “great composers steal” look at the references to various pieces of music in Star Wars such as the “Dries Ire” “rite of spring” and many others
The Nutcracker is an intentional reference. It's a Christmas film. Williams is god.
Yes... we watched the video too.
I know this was supposed to convince me that Williams didn’t steal these...But I honestly feel like he DID borrow these, and wanted to make something else from them.
Definitely, John Williams is not a thief but his works are beautiful inspiration and finest tribute to Western Classical. Its natural. In fact, even many Classical composers inspired from each other. Only if you have lift music directly from others, just like plain copy, then he or she will be labelled as thief. When it comes to film music, it should serve purpose of the movie. Its like arranged marriage between movie and orchestra as once John Williams said. Even if you listen many Classical music, you will find similarities of other classical music. I still firmly say John Williams is greatest living composer.
Narayanan Sundaram hell yes!!
"many Classical composers inspired from each other". In fact, I'd dare anyone to provide an example of Classical composer that didn't inspire from his/her predecessors in an obvious way.
"I still firmly say John Williams is greatest living composer."
Arvo Pärt: "Hold my beer..."
This makes me feel a WHOLE lot better. I do this a lot with my own stuff, so it's nice to know I'm not the only one who take quite a bit of inspiration from other pieces
Except you acknowledge the original artist. John Williams doesn't. He would be the first to moan if someone did it to him!
I just randomly spam chords on a keyboard.
@@QUEfrang just like a jazz master
In Leonard Bernstein's Norton lectures at Harvard in the early 1970s (available on UA-cam), he makes a remarkable case that principal themes in Wagner's Tristan and Isolde are derivations of themes from Berlioz' Romeo and Juliet. He also does this for Stravinsky's Oedipus Rex and Verdi's Aida. His point is not that these later works are plagiarisms, but that transformational procedures (which are linguistic concepts) derive new surface structures from existing deep structures. It's fascinating stuff, once you get into it.
Incidentally, Williams' "Can You Read My Mind?" theme from Superman sounds a lot like the climactic theme from Richard Strauss' tone poem Death and Transfiguration. (I'm the music theory nerd in the family, but it took my wife to point that out to me.)
This is a joke! Gustav Holst and others used pre-existing hymns and folk songs to use as a basis. Just picture the Dvorak music being used for the Jaws theme. we would be laughing our asses off out the the theatre. For the King's Row Williams even asked the authorization the the heirs of the Korngold family because he thought the Korngold idea would be better for the movie than his own idea.. People who never created anything in their lives are the most upset about influenced creators. By the way. Next time be sure to look at the scores, oh that's right most of the people making these negative remarks can't read music!
The Funeral March from Chopin is nothing like the Imperial March.
I think that was intentional on the part of the guy who made this video. I just hope John Williams sent him a nice card or something.
I think that whether John Williams stole or not from other composers is a false problem. The true question is: is John Williams an true original composer or is he overrated? All those borrowings show definitely he is not that original. A great arranger? Yes. A developer of other composers' ideas? Yes. But not a great creator.
Williams is my favorite film composer followed by Hermann among many others, I do believe as you pointed out that temp tracks tie the hands of many composers. I think it was Elfman possibly who expressed his disdain for temp tracks because it makes the director get their heart set on a certain sound and the composer is stuck trying to replicate it while being original at the same time. Still I cant help but notice the striking similarities between Georges Delerue's theme for the film Agnes of God and John Williams The Face of Pan. Face of Pan is one of my favorite Williams pieces so I don't know if its coincidence or more than that. Either way i'll take an alleged "stolen" Williams composition over most of the film music coming out today. He was writing classical style scores in the 70's when electronic/disco style scores were taking over. Now 40 years later he's one of the last to still write out notes with pen and paper and compose for a live orchestra. It's becoming a lost art much like hand drawn animation. Looking forward to his final Star Wars score, where he's rumored to revisit the themes of the entire series as a last hoorah.
Still, I love the points brought out in this video as they're completely relevant imo.
John Williams draws his musical vocabulary from the great masters and as such brings classical music to popular awareness. Even if they don't know Elgar from Howard Hanson, the emotional power of such music is front and center in his movies, and as such is a gateway for audiences to an appreciation of music. Long live John Williams.
The real question here is...
Who Tchaikovsky copied?
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣😒🤔
ua-cam.com/video/yDlw4J3TLEQ/v-deo.html
@@OrangeBallStudios Can you please point out in which part of Rubinstein's symphony did Tchaikovsky copied from and in which of piece Tchaikovsky piece's can it be found?
For Star Wars just jump to 3.20 mark and listen to Manon Lescaut: Intermezzo by Puccini is identical ua-cam.com/video/1jzVtm4nRwQ/v-deo.html
Is John Williams the Led Zeppelin of orchestra composers?
Been saying this same thing for a while. Takes, but does it better
Aren't the majority of Zeppelin copies just lyrics? As in the least important bit.
@@athloner perhaps the majority but they took plenty of musical content too
Also, Tarantino is the Zeppelin of directors
@@carlsong6438 I recall listening to a cover of Heartbreaker back in the 90’s... it was almost shocking to me because though it was an admirably, slavishly, close imitation (virtually identical ‘on paper’, type thing) it just fell so short of the original. Their second album was extraordinary, so much more than the sum of its parts
Consider also their ‘cover’ You Shook Me... again ‘on paper’ such a cliched blues (much of it anyway) but the actual song is frankly rather epic... and it wasn’t lost on Jeff Beck, who’d covered it at the same time; he was devastated.
Careful with using the word 'steal'. Remember, this is art and artists are inspired by other artists. Nothing is new anymore anyway, nothing. It's all derived from some other piece of art. If you catch it, fine. Otherwise just enjoy it and spread the word. On another note. Since music IS also an art form, the composer should be allowed to create their own music. F the director's 'vision'. It was brainwashed by some other composer's work temporarily. If every director did this we wouldn't have any new music to hear! Would we...
Thank you, excellent comment.
That's how Mafia works.
There are 12 notes
E, F, F#,G,G#,A,Bb,B,C,C#,D,Eb
It's simple math. Lots of music sounds similar
Whenever people say Jaws is just like Dvorak’s 9 symphony I’m like SMH my head you only listened to like 5 seconds of a 10 minute movement
It’s not just the theme of King’s Row. Lots of the orchestration and chord progression are in there too. As I’m sure you have noticed, but pretend not to.
For the whole video the man acted like if people were accusing him to be a plagiarist over 3 notes. And my favorite defense, it just I•N•S•P•I•R•A•T•I•O•N
WASN'T HORNER TRULY THE BIGGEST THIEF OF ALL? EVEN RIPPED OFF HIS OWN THEMES NOTE-FOR-NOTE.
troll is the word
yes. Horner was the biggest rip off king of all..of his own stuff!!!. You hear one score? you've heard everyone of them. Krull, ST: WOK, Aliens( all of them). Mask of Zorro, Sneakers, searching for bobby fisher, Apollo 13, ALL have the same cues, you'd swear you were watching different movies with the same score.
@@redsabreanakin Horner only did the score for one of the Alien films, so I'm not sure what you're talking about on that front.
Jerry Goldsmith composed the first alien and James Horner composed the sequel.
And if anyone thinks that the score from Willow sound anything like apollo 13, people don't know a fucking thing about James Horners music.
Listen to those themes back to back and tell me if they're even remotely similar. I dare you.
Lots of similarities between Star Trek 2 TWOK and Aliens for sure. I've always attributed that to the extremely compressed time schedule he was given for Aliens. Cameron left him with so little time, he famously proclaimed that he'd never work for Cameron ever again.
Ok, so your counter to people who make the accusation that Williams has made a career out of cribbing from other works is...
Yes, that's clearly the same here, but! Williams changes it up, at this point here, so, it's not lifting from another work?
I have been living under a rock, apparently, as I was unaware that this is a criticism that's been made of Williams, and so frequently, to boot.
I was aware of elements of Holst's work being identifiable within the Star Wars score, I am not familiar with most of the examples that are being cited, but when I hear the piece that Williams is accused of cribbing, I am finding that I feel some of these go way past what I would consider to be the line between 'reference to, echoes of, homage, pistache, inspired by, alludes to, in the style of' and any other term one might use when an artist is clearly, intentionally using another work or creator's style as their foundation.
I knew Williams is obviously inspired by the romantic era composers, but I feel some of these are egregious, it's the same melody and rhythm and the parts after the obvious lift are using the same instrumentation but are different in melody/ rhythm, which literally would have to be the case or it would simply be a full piece parody if nothing differed.
I have never listened to any of Williams music outside of the score of a movie, but I am going to now, I very much would like to try and objectively assess this idea, I can't fairly judge a massive body of work, decades in the making, based on (what could likely be) a few particularly intentioned derivations, in an overwhelming catalog that aren't like that.
The sun's a thief, and with his great attraction
Robs the vast sea; the moon's an arrant thief,
And her pale fire she snatches from the sun;
The sea's a thief, whose liquid surge resolves
The moon into salt tears; the earth's a thief,
That feeds and breeds by a composture stol'n
From general excrement: each thing's a thief:
The laws, your curb and whip, in their rough power
Have uncheck'd theft.
I just thought of that.
Do you actually like the Madonna or just really like the painting.
We are not ourselves, but rather a collection of those before us. Of course his work sounds familiar to others, how else would he have any idea how to build his own works?
Exactly. A person who has never heard music in their life cannot write music. Therefore, what you write will inevitably have influences from what you've heard.
those accusers are just underlying this: ''Those who can't, PREACH!'' 😂😂😂😂
PREACH, brother!
"Good artists copy, great artists steal." -Pablo Picasso
The worst part was that Alex wan't even notified that his musc had been scraped in favor of the temp tracks until after the release of the movie. If what I've come to understand is correct, he found out at the cinema, when watching the movie...
Ah yes, I forgot to mention that in my post. To say he was 'fired' or 'sacked,' while accurate in a sense, brings up an image like a Hitchcock Herrmann style confrontation. Kubrick simply asked North to stop composing further music and North thought his task complete. Only when North attended the premier did he realise his work wasn't in the film. Rather than saying 'fired' or 'sacked' a better image of what happened would be to say that North was left discarded on the cutting room floor.
The Jurassic Park theme has part of an old Chevrolet commercial in it.
"see the U S A in your Chev ro let"
My dad instantly recognized it from the 50s.
Absolutely. They'd need Dinah Shore back from the dead to sing it.
Interesting! Question is, did the young Johnny Williams compose that jingle? Same with Indiana Jones and the old Kent commercial, nearly identical melodies, but he might have composed the jingle in his youth.
For sure the Jurassic Park theme is a slowed-down version of Johnny William's own Lost In Space theme from the 1960s.
if that's stealing then rap artists are absolute plagiarists.
I disagree, because the hip-hop samples are conscious of their source material. This is explained in the beginning of the video.
you evidently don't understand correlation. What does being conscious of the source material have to do with anything?
Also jazz and blues from early 20 century. But that is way music always develop. Really, every thing develop this way, engineering, science, mathematic, fashion, architecture, law, etc.
While I agree, you did cut out the strings that proceed the themes from Star Wars and kings row which are almost exactly the same. Also I don’t know how you can make a video like this without mentioning the planets by Holst because Mars and Neptune were probably the closest to being “stolen” of all his movie tracks.
That is the most original pronunciation of "Dvořák" I have ever heard. "Wojak" lol :D But a very good video nontheless
he actually says "vor-zjak", which is the correct pronunciation. maybe his British accent, where the "R" is a bit fainter tripped you up?
@@MREmusique the absence od the "D" tipped me up, and the "ř" Is altogether absent. I havent actually realised he was talking about him for a while
@@MREmusique Well, in czech you pronaunce everything as it is written. So Vorzjak as Dvořák is far from correct pronaunciation. Use google translate to hear the correct czech pronaunciation. There is a hockey player with same name and US hockey commentators can pronaunce his name way better. They usualy pronaunce him as Dvorak. Without Ř
If Dvorak had been living today, he would have sued Williams for plagiarism, and *he would have won* . That excuse of "For Dvorak it is only an intro, and for Williams it is the theme" doesn't change anything. He stole the intro and just stayed there stretching it to "turn it into a theme". Still, those are Dvorak notes, and Williams did exactly the same with them: kept adding and adding, faster, louder. The idea was the same. I have seen cases won in court with pop music for much less than that. Then, at 8:24, when you say "I'ts perfectly _possible_ ..." means that you are guessing the _Temp Track_ theory only to defend Stravinsky's plagiarism by Williams. Lucas is alive, you can perfectly ask him if he gave that order, instead of proposing reasons for doing it in favor of Williams.
I remember in a writing class my teacher told us "you cannot write a new story. Every story has already been written, all you can do is take that old story and find a new and interesting way to tell it."
The Jaws theme is actually much closer to The Rite of Spring than The New World Symphony.
John Williams is a thief in the way that pretty much all successful creative people who aren't geniuses are.
However, the reason we're asking this question is down to a composer getting hired to do a job. George Lucas hired him to do a retro "romantic" style score influenced by music that was considered out of fashion at the time among film makers. The Film was huge, the score was amazing and a rebirth of the "romantic" score was complete. He may be brilliant at doing Wagner style stuff or whoever but that's not the point. The real art is what he choses to do over the images he's given. He is the Grandmaster Jedi of the language of Cinema music. He has also had more influence on the language of film music than anyone in the last 40 years. I challenge anyone who says he's just a thief to write me a 3 minute chase sequence in the style of JW and it be anywhere near as good as him. That's the difference people. He's really fucking good and most of the half decent musicians reading this will already know that.
exactly right
Jhon Williams is a foolish thief since he copies the rhythm note by note without realizing that the rhythm is the most important part of any music, even the most important thing in the universe!
Idk why some people act like literally every theme of his is an exact copy of some other classical work in the past. Plus, a lot of his plagiarism accusations are HUGE stretches. People need to appreciate his work for what it is
The nutcracker music is obviously an homage. I dont think most people credit JW for that one. Star Wars on the other hand is known by most people as JWs original work unless you actually do some research.
I agree with you. Thats the case. But sometimes John Williams had done completally new work like Close Encounters of the third kind. Or Schindlers list.
I've never actually seen Close Encounters, but the score is AMAZING - I should watch it soon
@@InsidetheScore i know. Thats why I tipped you. Hehe
I agree too, however you can notice similarities between Requiem for Soprano, Mezzo Soprano, Two Mixed Choirs and Orchestra (Jupiter and Beyond) used in 2001: A Space Odyssey and the cue Barry's Kidnapping from Close Encounters. I'd be surprised if he wasn't at least influenced by it. Not to mention it's acknowledged that the song When You Wish Upon a Star is 'interpolated' within a part of the Close Encounters score as well. Having said that, I've been a fan of John Williams since 1976 and I think Close Encounters is a brilliant score. Still have my 8 Track.
@@DyenamicFilms well when you wish upon a star was a request by Spielberg himself. Because it seems to be a favorite tune of his.
Nope, Schindlers List is a reworking of the Godfather theme.
John Williams: You take inspiration from other artists and you're a hero. I do it and I'm a villain. I don't think that's right.
Hans Zimmer: ...
Taking inspiration from other songs is part of composition.
Pieceees*
John Williams is a perfect example of why the Blurred Lines plagiarism case set a dangerous precedent. I don't think John Williams has done anything that would qualify as plagiarism but he certainly has gotten as close or closer than blurred lines. It doesn't make any sense to have a jury decide those types of cases. They don't understand music on a deep enough level to make those types of decisions for everyone forever.
He rifled Korngold's pockets mercilessly
Tchaikovsky, Stravinsky, Holst, the list goes on and on.
He imitates classical music for pop films. No shade, just a fact. He's very good at it too.
Only someone as ancient and decrepit as myself (and--ahem--John Williams) would be familiar enough with a 1950's jingle used in ads for Chevrolet to notice the similarity, but I'm almost positive he used it as the basis for the main theme of "Jurassic Park". Slow the jingle down, put it in a minor key, and it fits Williams' theme perfectly: "See the Yooo-Esss-Ayyyy in your Chev-roh-laaaay..." The hilarious thing about it, and what convinces me it isn't just a coincidence, is the name of the TV show that was most closely associated with the jingle--the hostess would belt it out herself at the end of every episode, in fact: "The Dinah Shore Show". So... Jurassic Park...Dinosaur show? Gotta love it.
John Williams is a musical thief & plagiarist.
You desperately trying to claim he isn't is plainly pathetic and abhorrently absurd.
Even in the example of 8:22 the instrumentation is what makes it seem simular but the melody isn’t that simular at all. Great video and analysis overall!
What I want to see in the future is this video here again but with the real source of thr Star Wars soundtrack: Planets by Gustav Holst (1916)
As a new composer myself, I find myself concerned when a movement I am writing takes on similarities to movements used by composers I have admired and respected my entire life. But what you said about there only being 12 notes to choose from is very true, and while if you use a piano as a reference, with its full range of octaves, you get a total of 88 notes. Can you imagine what a novel would be like if you had to limit your vocabulary to just 88 words? Well composers have that limit imposed on them. And when you factor in the additional limitations imposed by key signature, time signature and tempo it becomes increasingly difficult to convey a musical movement in a way that does not take on similarities, even parallels to the work of other composers writing within those same tonal and temporal constraints.
To draw a comparison to painting, I liken musical phrases to different combinations of color. The individual painters do not OWN the colors they use, but the do own the finished product. In music, it's much the same thing. Music is painting with the colors of sound.
@@diegomaugeri4038 You are forgetting that of the 12 notes in each octave, only some of them truly harmonize at the same time for MELODIC purposes. And when you apply a key signature you are applying a rule that limits you to 7 notes per octave, some sharped and some flatted, unless you are in the key of C in which case all notes are natural, no sharps or flats. This can be overridden with the use of accidentals, which change as sharp or flat to a natural, but this is done when the not in question is absolutely needed. And it should be noted that using an accidental in one instrument's composition changes the dynamic for potentially all other instruments that either have notes that hity or are sustaining at the same moment as the accidental occurs. There is a range of tolerance in which such overlapping notes do not become discordant, But this falls within the "only some of the 12 notes" that harmonize.
Do a google search for Random Number Generator. Google automatically provides you with a usable one right there in the search results. Set min to 1 and max to 13. 1 is C of one octave and 13 is C of the next octave with the other numbers representing the notes in between. Generate numbers until you have at least 4 unique numbers. Now play the notes together. Maybe they sound good, if they happen to be among the "only some notes" that harmonize. Repeat the process a few times and you will soon see that just because you have 12 notes to work with doesn't mean they all work together.
Just for your information, the notes that harmonize with C are D# E F G G#, A, and of course C in another octave. However D# and E do not harmonize with each other. Neither do E and F, G and G#, or G# and A. That's why Key Signatures are necessary, as they narrow down which notes to use as a general rule of thumb. For example, in the Key of G Major, the notes that harmonize with C are E G A and C, while in E Major, they are D# E G# A and C... But only when using an accidental of C natural, as in the key of E Major, C# is the default pitch for C. Now are you understanding how note usage is more limited than it may seem at first glance? And we are only dealing with the rules of tonal dynamics here. Applying time signatures and working with the rhythmic patterns that can be used within them are not so much limitations as they are additions to complexity.
Remember. Unless you are going for a piece that sounds chaotic, All the notes have to harmonize across all instruments in the composition.
Sometimes you want to be discordant. John Williams does this for tense moments in the scenes he's scoring. In Raiders of the Lost Ark, when the Ark was opened and the Nazis were being electrocuted, melted or otherwise blown up, the whole musical movement is horrifying chaos through discordant "anti-harmonies". For a first time viewer of the movie, the imagery and music can have a profound psychological impact. John Williams effectively throws the rules of tonal dynamics out the window with chaotic discord that sounds terrifyingly awesome. But this is not something any composer wants to do all of the time.
Sorry for the novel there. I just wanted to clarify how, no matter how wide the note range is for the instruments in question, note usage is still limited to their ability to harmonize with each other.
@@diegomaugeri4038 I would like to point out that musicians have consistently borrowed elements from each other since the early days of traveling minstrels. Though in their case, they used the full melody written by someone else and merely adapted new lyrics.
Williams may borrow movements written originated by other composers, but he does far more than the equivalent of just writing new lyrics. Those movements come together to form something unique.
I am an admirer of James Horner's work. He is no longer with us, and therefore, we will not be graced with his unique style... Unless composers who follow after him integrate that style into their own original compositions. One of the pieces I have written use a transitional movement very similar to one Horner used in Braveheart and Bicentennial Man. Horner was one of the composers whose work reinforced my love of music, And as a composer, I pay homage to him by giving small musical nods to his style within my own original work. Before deciding on that similar transition, I tried others that worked on a technical level, but did not deliver the precise feel that I wanted to convey. But when I applied the Horner-esque transition, It fit and worked perfectly for what I was trying to do. I in effect borrowed Horner's melodic shade of purple to bridge my shade of red and blue
I cannot share this piece as I wrote it for someone to use in their own video series when they get to it. When he releases the first video that uses the theme, I will make it public. It is the first composition I have written, and I learned a lot from the process...
Yes. There is influence and borrowing, and then there is just plain ripping off, then there is John Williams who takes all his motifs from the greats, then tweaks it. No Respect for this guy.
everyone is a thief. you know a John Williams score when you hear it. that's a great achievement.
I understand the job description of film composing and admire the amazing musicians who serve the directors and do very good jobs. My only problem as a professional musician is giving all these musicians almost like a God like statue by calling their work very original and authentic while we know the truth. If Star Wars was not a hit movie we might not even be talking about John Williams at all. We wouldn't know for sure of course. BTW regarding Jaws Theme ; Taking an inspiration from 2 notes could have been acceptable if it was not actually a dynamically ascending and rhythmically fastening 2 notes. This concept of creating suspense is not something very common and it is an original idea. When you copy a specific concept like this we are not just talking about 2 notes there and it is a bit stretch to just call it an inspiration ...
You have one hell of a channel dude. I enjoy your content very much. :)
Showing a picture of Led Zeppelin whilst speaking about authenticity and originality is sarcasm at its best.
I personally compose music and know that it is hard to come up with an idea at first but once I start it comes together pretty quickly.
I think what John Williams is doing is he is taking a few notes and ideas from classical music to get his piece rolling so he can complete it in his own unique way.
In part, what Williams did is what we now call "sampling". If you glue Stravinsky's 'The rite of spring' and Dvorak's 9th Allegro together you have Jaws' music. When rap producers make something new, exiting and _unrecognisable_ out of little snippets they'll get sued until death and until they are financially completely ruined. When John Williams does it people will defend it.
Hmmm. Who's right and who's wrong? I honestly don't know. However, what I _do_ know is hat there's some damn serious hypocrisy in both.
Reasonable accusations? They aren't even similar at all.
I don't believe John Williams is a thief, I believe it's plain coincidence some of his music sounds like other music. There's been times when I used to hum tunes like the way people whistle and I was thinking-up tunes as I went along and then I found myself humming something that sounded like something in a movie. Just like a lot of writers are bound to think-up an idea and write it and realise later somebody has already written a book or made a movie on an idea almost the same.
Great analysis. The collaboration between Lucas/ Spielberg/Williams, the three beard men, is a great example of what you call the director's vision. In webisodes from the prequel Lucas was so clear of what he wanted and you could see Williams attention to Lucas detail and at the end result was something fenomenal and of course unique but it was it because Lucas vision.
The combination of those three is what makes his work on the Indiana Jones series my favorite of all his work.
This could have came out from my mouth. A filmcomposer isnt composing for their own sake, but for someone elses vision. And thats why filmmusik sometimes sounds like something els. But anyone who says John Williams is a thief should maybe listen to the artmusic he write OUTSIDE the movie-screen. That music is all him, and no one els. There is however a soundtrack John Williams did have a lot of saying and that was Close Encounters of the Third Kind. Especially this 5 tones motif. The music For E.t with the title "E.ts adventures on earth" Never worked at all in the editing and recording of the movie so Steven Spielberg told John Wiliams to conduct it as it was a concert. John WIlliams did, and Steven cut the movie after the score instead of the other way around. Thats why its so emotional. For many reviewers here in Sweden that the thing they hates the most. In Sweden the directors mostly wants the pictures to tell more emotion than use of music, wich reviewers and directors seems to think is a cheap way to go. So they usually say the end of E.ts is insufferable. lol
Excellent points. I would add that dynamic range is another device that enhances emotional feeling and separates classical music from pop/rap.
I love how he skipped the most blatant example with Holst, when john Williams copied Holst's mars.
Except he still didn't. If you're familiar with both pieces they're clearly different. Similar, but completely unmistakable
STOP TALKING ABOUT JOHN WILLIAMS KEEP HIS NAME OUT OF UR DIRTY MOUTHES HE IS A CREATIVE GENIUS NOT A THEIF
Yup - I agree
There is one more small similarity between Williams's Star Wars and Siegmund von Hauseggers Natursymphonie,last movement.