A Theory of Film Music
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- Опубліковано 8 вер 2024
- This video essay is a response to the Every Frame A Painting video, 'The Marvel Symphonic Universe': • The Marvel Symphonic U...
Should film music be original? That's a question that goes right back to the earliest of film sound. But with new technology came changes - and just maybe, the answer to why all Marvel films seem to have forgettable music.
This video was made by Dan Golding: / dangolding
For educational purposes only.
All credit to Tony Zhou for his incredible channel, and for finally getting me motivated enough to make a video essay.
Archival and interview footage:
John Williams conducts The Empire Strikes Back: • Video
Hans Zimmer talks The Dark Knight Rises: soundworkscolle...
Hans Zimmer: the making of Interstellar: • Hans Zimmer - making o...
Man Of Steel Soundtrack - Percussion: • Man of Steel Official ...
The Buggles - Video Killed the Radio Star: • The Buggles - Video Ki...
Academy Awards 1936: • Academy Awards Out-tak...
Pierre Boulez conducts The Rite of Spring: • Pierre Boulez conducts...
S. Rachmaninov. Symphony 1: • S. Rachmaninov. Sympho...
Adorno about Popular Music: • Adorno about Popular M...
John Williams conducts The Force Awakens: • Video
Flash Gordon Conquers the Universe: • Video
The Searchers: • The Searchers: John Wa...
Music Cues and film score excerpts:
John Williams - Let There Be Light (Close Encounters of the Third Kind)
Hans Zimmer - Message From Home (Interstellar)
King's Row - Erich Wolfgang Korngold
How The West Was Won - Alfred Newman
Star Wars - John Williams
2001: A Space Odyssey - Strauss: Also Spruck Zarathustra
Troy - James Horner
Enemy At The Gates - James Horner
Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan - James Horner
Avatar - James Horner
Inception - Hans Zimmer
Driving Miss Daisy - Hans Zimmer
Chinatown - Jerry Goldsmith
Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest - Hans Zimmer
The Dark Knight - Hans Zimmer
Man of Steel - Hans Zimmer
All films and music owned by their respective rights holders.
This is my favorite response I've ever received to anything our channel has ever done. I cannot tell you how happy this makes me. This video includes so many "deleted scenes" and various arguments from our video that we couldn't figure out how to include. I've spent the last 3 days debating whether to make another video with these points, then you do it and I'm like "THANK GOD!" I am going to tweet the shit out of this link.
Thanks for sharing, Tony! Got here from your channel and just subscribed. Hey, I was wondering, how do you normally decide what your essays are gonna be about?
Hey, EFAP,
Can I suggest that, if you do make another video exploring these ideas, you consider also talking about how this reliance on modeled instruments also makes it more difficult to present and repeat musical themes? I think this comes to the heart of whether a film's music is memorable - how it presents and uses it's thematic material (most Marvel films have a very weak sense of thematic material: they rarely reuse their themes, and usually don't have many to work with in the first place).
Yeah but Tony, he basically discredited everything you said in your video: you talked about how the advent temp music was born with non linear editing systems and how it affected Hollywood. Dan just proved that much of what you said wasn't really authentic in anyway. Don't you agree?
I find that in your videos, as good as they are, you tend to go on a little on an edge of too much blame on modern films when in fact every age of cinema has always has its pros and cons.
I'm really glad I followed Tony on twitter so that I was led to this. Well played, gentlemen.
Came here from your Facebook share. What a great response video! A great compliment to the EFaP video.
I can see a lot of people now trying to crucify Zimmer for "ruining film music" but he isn't and never was the problem. Way too many people who don't listen to much music have this misconception that melody is everything that makes a piece memorable and likable, and rhythm and harmony are just this decorative pixie dust on top. Yes, Hans Zimmer did popularize the rhythmic solution to MIDI scores, but what makes Zimmer different is he knows how to compliment it with melody and harmony. Yeah Pirates of The Caribbean OST is mostly percussion and short strings, but I can guarantee you that 9/10 people who've seen those films can hum the main theme; tracks like Thelma and Louise from Thunderbirds is full of long flowing melodies, and his approach to harmony is immediately identifiable as his. When you hear a score like Inception, Dark Knight or Interstellar; you know it's a Zimmer score; his use of repetition, simple melodies, building layers, dissonance and texture is thematically huge and perfect for film.
The problem then, is that far too many composers see this rhythmic solution as a bandaid, they slap it on and call it a day. The rhythm itself is nothing interesting, the harmony is flat and 2 dimensional, and the melodies (if they show up) are emotionally neutral and lack any repetition to be memorable. It's mood music, stock. It's a different approach, music in a film to most composers is like wallpaper, or chairs in an empty hall; it's just expected to be there, even if it's not thematically necessary. Where Zimmer is actually trying to add the experience, other composers are taking that "Zimmer sound" and using it just blend in. Now THAT'S the problem.
I don't fault Hans Zimmer for the direction of movie scores. I fault the musically illiterate film directors, who are afraid that the score will become more memorable than the film itself. As a result, non-hummable, non-memorable scores serve as an emotional background for totally non-memorable movies.
And suddenly the discussion is expanding. Great stuff!
nice
Hi everyone, and thank you all so much for the great response to this video! I'm really pleased. I'm new to UA-cam and am figuring out a way to respond to the common questions, but in the meantime, here's a few quick comments:
1. I can't thank Tony and everyone at Every Frame A Painting enough for their enthusiasm and positivity here. I'm blown away by how great the ensuing conversation has been, and I think a lot of that is owed to how generous they've been.
2. Many of you have asked for more videos! That's great, and something I'm definitely planning on. I'm not sure when, but they're coming. Stick around.
3. Some of you have asked about what software I'm using to make the music in the video. It's Logic Pro X, with Native Instruments Kontact 5, and I'm using a mixture of software libraries from ProjectSAM and Cinematic Studio Strings.
Thanks again for the great response - I'm so glad to see such ongoing interest in film music and I hope it continues.
Postmodernist critics, Theodore Adorno... You had me up till there.
YouthInEyesAsian it's true, even Adorno admirers admit that he often sounds like he's making it all up. The problem for me was not his quote necessarily but who it was coming from.
Someone needs to do a vid on musical plagiarism as a supposed problem. I think it's overblown. Some people think every choral moment is Carmina Burana etc
Or Alexandre Desplat. Even though the theme from Moonrise Kingdom is a reworking of a Benjamin Britton piece (itself a reworking of Purcell) it has enough originality and homage to be unique to itself.
For me, Daft Punk MADE Tron: Legacy, the movie was maybe not that great, but the music is amazing, you can feel the electronic, the bits and bytes, the music is inspired by C64 type music back in the 80'ies. M83 is one of my super favorites, again some people would argue that Oblivion was not such a good movie, but thanks to the music, it made it very enjoyable. I'm very music driven, so even bad movies with great music are enjoyable for me. The reverse works much less: LOST had this horrific minimalistic non existant soundtrack, basically just repeating soundeffects, like the fiddle going down, then a simple twang of one string (and the feeling going: DAMN, isn't this all very very strange?) and then, like always, the big fat steel door closing. For an audiophile, very boring and repetitive. Then there were 2 tracks, which were really rare and did not seem to belong to LOST, no Leitmotiff no matter where you look. Even worse was Battlestar Galactica, the new one, totally bland and dead, just endless drumming and melodies that seem to have beaten to a pulp and blandness. M83 and Tron has maybe not a classical Leitmotiff, but it kind of approaches something like that.
Egg Master - are you referring to how Dan Golding assumes that a five note motif equals unoriginality? In my opinion it's a musical signature, absolutely an acceptable practice and not a bad thing.
This. On point. Well done sir.
Actually this video is full of crap information. Simply use the internet to fact check, it's bullsh!t. Hanz Zimmer is not handicapped by digital sounds, as a matter of fact he uses orchestras to compose a lot of his music.
And this can be corroborated
"Music in Hollywood has changed a great deal. There used to be an army of orchestrators, arrangers and copiers employed by the studio - André Previn was part of one of those vast music departments. These days those divisions have fallen by the wayside. I write on a computer, which allows me to be very specific about the nuance of every note, much more so than writing on paper. But you do miss that terrific focused emotion of a group of musicians playing together. So I like to collaborate with other composers and musicians because it allows me to capture that sense of teamwork." - Hans Zimmer. the video you linked was a promotion for a movie. A lot of music is still played by an orchestra but is written first in something like fl studio. www.gramophone.co.uk/feature/my-music-hans-zimmer
What I understood from the video was that Zimmer composes and creates most of the musical arrangements on computer first, then he has the option to re-record entire sections of it with an actual orchestra if needs be and tasks other sound engineers and music producers that work for him to contribute to his overall soundscape. Eventually he arrives at what we hear in the final digitally composed soundtrack.
Also I don't think this video was saying he is hamstrung but the opposite, he is able to be far more flexible and alter his scores to fit the constantly tinkered film right up to release date. It simply pointed out that the old ways of score composing resulted in identifiable melodies, and the new era of film music perfectly compliments the movie while you watch it but results in soundscapes that are perhaps less 'hummable' after you've left the theatre.
Not completely. Even this video fails to address the roadblock known as "deadlines."
I've been complaining about the dominance of rhythms and percussions in modern scores, and it had never occurred to me that composers lean towards them because they sound better on computers while "pre"-composing. This makes so much sense.
_glares at Destiny: The Taken King_
Compare Destiny: The Taken King to the new stuff from Rise of Iron. It does retain a lot of percussive hits, but man they went to a whole different place with the soundscape. Almost religious.
The hits in the TTK theme are appropriate
It’s not solely because it’s written on computers. I lot of these guys grew up in a rock and roll era and were in bands as teenagers so naturally they lean toward rock a lot.
Hans Zimmer in Video Killed The Radio Star? Mindfuck xD
Interestingly enough, I went out of the theater humming Interstellar's "No time for Caution". Which is incidentally made by Hans Zimmer.
Interstellar's music had some incredible melodies.
It was written on computer but when Zimmer heard the Church organ he started to experiment so it was all very organic. Also all of it was performed with real orchestra.
Everybody says Zimmer was a genius by creating those tracks, but he copied it from Phillip Glass - Glassworks. All of it. He is just a copy of things heard before as this video rightfully address. Same with Brams, he copy that from the previous composer of the trailer he works on and I can point you out all of his career “original ideas”
Well, no idea is truly original. All artists recycle ideas that they've experienced before, it's just that some do it more creatively than others. Hans Zimmer is actually quite original, I used to be able to tell if a score was by him. But these days everyone copies him, so I can no longer tell who wrote what. The things is, there's a place for Hans Zimmer, but one of him is just enough. Composers should discover their own sound instead of simply imitating him.
Hans Zimmer is an undeniably great composer who's created some of the most dramatic, innovative, and all around best film scores of the last decade, all with his own personal style and flare. The problem is that the vast majority of composers just aren't Hans Zimmer, and they shouldn't have to try to be.
Zimmer isn't a great composer. He really isn't even much of an actual composer.
Violet Nomad- explain.
zimmer is ranked among john williams when it comes to scores. AND he makes up everything on his own, he writes the music, then has people who play instruments better than him play it.
Silverbolt Bluefire Ranks who?
what do you mean ranks who?
i said hans zimmer is ranked high like john williams
By whose rankings? Your's?
And still, I get myself humming Hans Zimmer themes all the time...
Eh, I would say that the soundtracks from _The Dark Knight_ and "Man of Steel" are rather hummable.
IKR? What are you going to do when you are not saving the world... like a dog chasing cars. XD
I think it's more of a matter of people copying Hans Zimmer and not succeeding rather than him doing something really wrong.
Yeah same. I can remember a good deal of his scores. Like people forget that he knows how to add in melodies. For example his pirates love theme in number 3 or Man of steel's flight theme or batman's theme. Especially in Batman Begins his theme is very noticable.
This is besides the argument in the video but: Batman's theme is literally two notes, a minor third upwards. And it's the only theme in all three films. Aside the fact that Zimmer rarely ever writes alone, or uses proper instrumentation, he hardly even writes themes and if he does he just plays them in loops without variation. IMHO the last good thing he did was Crimson Tide and he hasn't done anything acceptable since The Last Samurai
Jon Kirch
Batman has several themes, but the single minor third interval is his main "theme". Funnily the Joker is mostly described by a single interval as well. And Bane is a rhythm. With all that Zimmer still has plenty of actual _melodies_ in that trilogy.
No matter all the reasons given for why I shouldn't like Hans Zimmer's film scores, I just... I can't! As a writer, I listen to a lot of music that helps me develop the scenes I'm typing out, and Zimmer is one of my go to composers. Perhaps it's as you said - he creates auditory landscapes, not themes. Perhaps that's why he works so well for me. Whether it's Pirates of the Caribbean, Inception, or his DC music, it just sets me perfectly in the mood to write. The same for Jablonsky.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on the music of video games. Gone are the days of bleeps and bloops. Now you have some honest to goodness music! The scores for Halo and Uncharted are just the tip of the iceberg. I think it's a topic you might enjoy looking into.
ngl as soon as he implied John williams star wars theme was temp music I kinda just switched off.. it was barely even interpolation.. both examples he used are nowhere as iconic melodic of memorable as the SW themes
Steve Jablonsky himself has a talent for coming up with leitmotifs and doing more lyrical themes. Not just his more well-known Transformers scores (particularly the Autobot, Optimus, AllSpark, Thirteen Primes, and Arrival To Earth themes), but even in a movie as...garbage as Your Highness, he still made an effort to make the music somewhat good and have recognizable themes (or at least three of them)
First off - this was very well done.
Second - I don't think this is a truly fair assessment to take something like "Dark Knight" for example which actually includes extremely well done melodic material.
The use of perfect fourth melodic components which articulate an element of heroism (I'm referring to the Dark Knight Theme the Dm-Bb-C-Am progression with the drawn out melody) - and then a twisting of the melodic figure by using half of an octatonic scale and using chromatic mediant harmony (d minor to B flat minor harmony) -- so, sure you can pull loads of sequences that show the rhythmic and un-melodic ideas out but that is also completely ignoring the elements where melody actually does happen and when it happens in a way that is 100% memorable.
Also what's so wrong with using rhythmic textures anyways? I mean - their job is to aid a film, not be the shining star. Inception uses fiercely rhythmic components that fully aid the storytelling in the film - which is a GOOD thing. The music shouldn't be stealing the show in the first place.
Has film music changed? Of course it has - it would be quite unimaginable that it would not change with the advancement of technology. But is this not just a "bad thing"? I certainly don't think so - at least not in a broad sense.
The landscape is different - the uses are different - the goals are different. And while I do agree that Marvel music is overwhelmingly not memorable - what about Alan Sivestri's Captain America score? Quite like a heroic fanfare that is incredibly memorable.
I tend to be rather disappointed with videos like this because they paint with a VERY broad brush in a way that those who cannot do their own deep discovery due to a lack of theoretical and compositional background will not understand. You can show examples but they are ultimately curated. You are also leaving out the mass of materials that contradict your very argument. So my position is: film music has changed. Some for better - some for worse. I still love many of the scores you reference, and based on streaming numbers - tens of millions or even hundreds of millions of others do too.
There are things Hans Zimmer does that makes me shake my head and be like "ahhh yes this again" and other times I listen and am profoundly moved (Interstellar for example).
Videos like this tend to be very polarizing - and seemingly on purpose - because it will rally those who agree with you behind it and those who disagree with make it known loudly. But it tends to serve primarily as a form of conformation bias - someone already thinks this way and you just confirmed it with a series of half-baked examples while ignoring the equal number of examples that prove the opposite. Just look at the comments - so many saying "Uh, I mean I can hum Hans Zimmer music after watching one of the films" If your starting point in making a video is to have a negative view-point then you will find and use mostly material that confirms it rather than providing a true analysis.
Again - this video IS well done. The storytelling - the visuals - etc. and I commend you for it because I know (as a fellow creator) how hard it is to make videos that stand out and this is one of the first videos you ever made on this channel which is remarkable. So none of my criticism is to be viewed as a "smack down" but hoping that others can consider that this does not need to be an "I agree with 100%" or "I disagree with you 100%" but that there is some middle ground. I just wish the video would have laid out that option, because on the one hand I agree with much of it but then disagree with much of it.
I don't think he said that's a bad thing. But I understand your point :)
No average bystander would be able to hum the Inception theme if asked - but that music is clearly fantastic. So where's the line?
Perhaps true, but people who've watched the movie a couple of times should be able to hum it. I can. It's pretty distinctive. But I've seen all the Marvel movies several times each, AND I'm a musician who's used to memorizing music, and I can't hum anything from any of the Marvel movies. :-) As the video notes, it's not bad music, it's just bland. A kinder word might be "generic", and I actually think that's a perfect fit.
Just my opinion, but I find it difficult to believe that you've seen all the Marvel movies several times each, and you can't at least hum the theme from The Avengers.
Sorry, it's true. I went ahead and looked up The Avengers theme just now, since I couldn't remember it, and listening to it right now, it's no wonder I can't remember it - what's memorable about it? It's very generic. Not bad, just not distinctive either.
I disagree. the avengers theme is one of my favorite themes of all time
The Avengers theme at least has a clear melody.
But what about Zimmer's work on movies like The Lion King or the Prince of Egypt. Those sound tracks are very melodic and even years after watching the movies I can remember motifs from those pieces. For example, in his piece "King of Pride Rock". The main chorus is pretty much unforgettable. When you hear it you know it's from The Lion King. I agree with your point on use of atmospheric landscapes being the reason we don't remember the tunes from movies. But that doesn't mean that digital is completely to blame for lack of melody.
I think there's more of a problem of bad Hans Zimmer copies than Hans Zimmer himself doing anything wrong. Hans Zimmer actually uses quite a lot interesting melodies, it's just not something people think about when talking about Hans Zimmer.
This video essay is pretty much bullshit tbh Zimmer uses orchestras and sources the greatest instrument players to compose his scores.
Anyone can fact check this by simply searching in Google or UA-cam.
This is how lies and misinformation are perpetuated.
EXACTLY THIS +PauLtus B. It's more about people copying Hanz Zimmer rather than the actual originator of the sound.
zimmer hires people to play then edits it digitally he even released a 5 minute video for his work on the score for interstellar. zimmer, while making sort of simplistic scores, is the king of what he does. and he knows someone out there with little to know influence at all can make a better score with him.
Hell, all of Zimmer's soundtracks are iconic.
I've noticed that both of these videos fail to take into account the idea that this non-melodic, soundscape based style just FITS these new movies. Take the Joker in TDK for example. A "memorable melody" wouldn't fit his character at ALL. The rhythm and soundscape fits perfectly for the anarchic, chaotic take on Joker.
i agree with this. This video failed to mention Interstellar for example and that's another Nolan / Zimmer collaboration that sounds completely different and has actually more of a melodic theme.
I also think it's not a harmony vs rhythm thing at all: The Terminator has a very memorable theme and it's mostly a rhythmic series of clangs, which actually fits the film!
That's because you're conditioned to believe that now. I'm sure if tdk trilogy would've come out with a more natural catchy tune you would say differently.
This is so interesting. Between this and Every Frame and Painting's video I have learned so much about making movie scores :) Fascinating! It really makes me want to make some original music for some of the video projects I'm working on but I have absolutely no idea how to actually go about doing that... Feeling inspired though!
I am about to make a short film, what you say we collaborate ?
Thanks but I've got far too many things on the go as it is right now. Hope your film goes well :)
I guess the answer is in the video : Francis Ford Coppola said once "Steal to others". I think originality is this : stealing from very various styles from different time period and add your own gimmicks. By the way, what works for John Williams for example is that most of people don't know his multiple inspirations.
Kelvin, I'm curious about your short, if you want to hear some soundtrack on my channel...
deadbadbunny send me your email and we can talk better.
You cut the Man of Steel music right as the melody starts. Pirates of the Caribbean also has a pretty memorable tune.
The Dark Knight doesn't have an anthem or fanfare or melody that is easy to hum like Star Wars, but it definitely has an overall sound and motif that is unique to itself. It stands out from others. Same with Inception.
Marvel's problem is that their scores become background noise until the end credits roll and the one theme kicks in. It has little to do with "temp" music.
Going back to Man of Steel, tunes like Flight, Arcade and What Are You Going To Do When You're Not Saving The World, are a lot more re-playable.
Legit! Theres a reason we all got a bit excited when just the tiniest portion of that melody was played in Snyder's Justice League.
Yah... Zimmer's "Sooooool... do-sol-faaaaaaa..." theme for Snyder's Man of Steel actually works for me and it's memorable. To me, it's not just Supe's but the overall hopeful tone it represents especially that it's always matched with a scene involving sunrise or simple as Supe's smile.
And let's not forget his work on The Gladiator!
Agreed. Man of Steel is maybe the ONE hummable superhero soundtrack of the past 25 years. I'd also argue that Silvestri's Captain America score has plenty of actual character motif melodies. But yeah, MCU soundtracks break my heart by not having any iconic themes in them. Thankfully they've leaned into the Avengers theme and given it a bit more heft and spotlight in recent trailers and films to where it's really the ONLY Marvel theme 99.9% of the film going population MIGHT recognize. It's refreshing in the last two Spider-Man films that they are using Giacchino's 60s reworking more and more. They really should just make that the full theme.
I'm surprised that with both those videos I still haven't heard either of you talk about leitmotifs, which I think are the defining things for movie music sounding memorable. I think Hans Zimmer's popularity is to blame here but not Hans Zimmer himself. There's a lot of music nowadays that would sound like Hans Zimmer but of which I don't expect a lot of people wouldn't be able to tell the movie with it.
Hans Zimmer is mostly famous for rhythmics and dynamics, but we shouldn't forget that he gives significantly more memorable sound scapes than his copycats. WIth that said, I think it's important not to forget that he does use them, a lot even. I think especially looking at the Batman trilogy you probably wouldn't really think of it since they are leitmotifs in a very Hans Zimmer way. Both Batman and the joker aren't really described with a real melody, but both are as simple as a tone interval. Bane is a rhythm, Catwoman does have a melody. Next to that there actually _are_ plenty of repeating melodies in that trilogy, but also repeating rhythms, soundscapes...
If you want to get back to hummable melodies: I think surely both the themes from Man of Steel, Sherlock Holmes will do.
*****
I think it's also interesting to note that on the Nolan/Zimmer collaboration they stopped using temp music (not sure if it was ever really used).
Zimmer even started composing on nothing but vague hints of what it is about.
No matter how much the problems discussed in these videos may have an origin with Hans Zimmer, they're not problems that come with his own music, but rather a misinterpretation of his style.
I agree with you and I still like Zimmer's concept (as you said, they are leitmotifs but when I hear them I recognize them although I can"t hum them) but I also remember NerdWriter's video about leitmotifs in LotR... and you can hum them (mainly Fellowship theme) but Zimmer chooses more general and epic sounds and when everyone copies it... we end uo with generic soundrack when we remember only the main song during the ending titles.
Iriiis13
"more general and epic sounds"
I don't think that really describes it? I think he keeps it melodically simple but tries to "present" these melodies with as much power (not just in the grand way) as possible. Christopher Nolan called it minimalist music with maximum impact. It's not that weird that you hear him getting compared to Philip Glass.
+PauLtus B You are right, I've oversimplified it. For thr record, I do love his soundtracks and watched every bonus video with him about making it (the Interstellar one was awesome). I think he has different approach in that he finds that specific way and sound and in that way each movie soundtrack is distinguishable and memorable. But I also understand the "problem" of not having humming melodies. In the end, I want chills. I want to cry like a baby when Simba walks up that rock. Himmer delivers that but those who "follow" him tend to take his music from the wrong side - and everything becomes predictable. And yes, it will all boil to money and time.
Iriiis13
I think one of the problems with temp tracks is that a lot of composers don't really get the chance to create music in their own style.
You get a director asking a composer to do what the director _thinks_ he/she makes a Zimmer soundtrack good.
I worked with Maurice Jarre on the John Huston film 'The Man who would be King'. He had a theme running through it as he did on other famous movie soundtracks he had composed for such as Dr. Zhivago & Lawrence of Arabia. In the 'Man who would be King' he also involved Indian instrumentation such as Sitar, Tabla, Shennai, Sarod and Sarangi and asked me to try to get any local Indian musicians in London. That was 1975. We worked around a theme he had written and he asked me to try to see what Raga we could incorporate using his theme. I found the notes of the Raga Bhairavi and a simple pentatonic Bhairagi Bhairav were nearest.
It was a clever bit of orchestration.
This is a lovely comment, thank you Clem. Wonderful to hear of your work with the great Maurice Jarre.
good work brother
Another thing I have noticed comparing music by the likes of Zimmer vs. Goldsmith, for example, is how much variation and subtlety there is in Goldsmith's work. The way I like to explain it, which is an oversimplification but I think it gets my point across, is that Zimmer creates a track that addresses the greater mood of the scene, whatever that may be, whereas by comparison I feel like Goldsmith and many of the "older" generation of composers manage to do this but at the same time they are addressing the micro-moods of every shot within that scene as well and stitching them together in an eloquent manner. I am not sure exactly what to attribute this to, but I think it has to do with the fact that many of today's film composers are not trained in that art, but rather picked up film composition after being mostly experienced in rock music or whatever. Zimmer is obviously a case of this and, as I understand, even fully admits to this. The soundtrack to Tron: Legacy is a perfect example of this. Certainly a serviceable soundtrack and satisfying on a certain level, but Daft Punk are obviously not classically trained musicians, or if they are it doesn't show. I would be willing to bet that most composers working on Marvel soundtracks are similar - probably good musicians, competent composers but they are likely not the kind of guys who spent their life learning that craft and exploiting an orchestra's manifold colors, creating nuance through performance. Having some experience working with orchestral music in the electronic realm, one of the most difficult things to write for (as this video touches upon) are the things that a real musician would have an easier time doing. Try replicating, for instance, a lot of the techniques that Goldsmith uses for his Alien score using sample libraries. You'll probably have a rough time unless you happen to have a library with similar-sounding pre-recorded samples of those types of aleatoric string effects, etc. So it is less likely composers who work with that as a medium are going to be doing things like that. They will fall back on the brass stabs, string ostinato, etc. that are pretty easy to compose for using a computer. For me the memorable melodic themes are important but I miss them less than I do the more sophisticated marriage of musical movement to action on screen. I don't feel like most films today really have music that brings out the life of each little piece of action or emotion that is happening from second to second.
My favourite OST is from the Lord of the rings. It's just perfect. But now I wonder if they used temp music too. And if yes, what was that?
Great video by the way, perfect addition to Tony's video.
Yes, Peter Jackson used temp score for LOTR but he realized that he kept using tracks by Howard Shore. That's why Jackson ended up choosing Shore to do it for real.
Interesting. It was a good choice, that's for sure.
LOL I did not know that hahah
Oh couldn't agree more. One of the best, if not the best, of scores from the past 20 years.
Do you know if Ennio Morricone ever used temp music? Because he usually composed before the movie was even shot, so that leaves me wondering.
Great video, but I still have some problems with your video and even the video this is a response too.
First, the biggest reason why most scores are not memorable anymore, Main Titles! Very few movies have Main Title Sequences anymore and most movies settle for an exciting end credit sequence which plays while most people are rushing to their nearest exits. Main Titles sequences usually display all the themes you're about to hear, the heroes theme, even the villains theme. Case in Point Sam Rami's Spider-Man films.
Main Titles are this break between trailers and when the story actually begins, they transport you into the movie world and begin to fill you in on what you'll hear and feel. Spielberg's Catch Me If You Can is another great sample.
Another problem with film music that both videos never addressed was the use of more atmospheric sounds. I've listened to the scores for both David Fincher's Gone Girl, and The Girl with the Dragoon Tattoo and I would never be able to hum the theme cause there really isn't one. Trent Reznor and Atticus Ross went for an electronic atmospheric score, and only in The Social Network is there any identifiable melody that could be called the film's score or main theme.
My last issue with both videos is repetition, watch the Force Awakens, and almost anytime Kylo Ren is on screen you hear his theme, every time Indiana finishes off a fight you hear his theme, every time you see the House in Up you hear Ellie's theme. Repetition in music is important, like any good chorus. Where as most music is just loud action noise. Listen to Dawn of the Planet of the Apes and Koba's theme has a natural progression. You hear it play in the beginning but with each new scene his score becomes more and more aggressive towards the end.
Now my issue regarding your video.
Hans Zimmer may be part of the problem, but he's not THE problem. I don't think it's fair to blame him that every director insists that there scores sound like the newest Hans Zimmer score. His music is original and other composers copy him.
Also I'm not the biggest fan of the Man of Steel score, but you cut the audio right before the melody hit, so that didn't seem fair to Zimmer.
_Hans Zimmer may be part of the problem, but he's not THE problem_
Agreed. I'd say his (un)willing bargain bin carbon copies, for whom there's a high demand in this risk-averse, formula-adhering industry, are the problem. I often joke that Hanz Zimmer is the only film composer nowadays, who doesn't sound like Hanz Zimmer.
_the biggest reason why most scores are not memorable anymore, Main Titles!_
The _Matrix_ trilogy has main titles. It has no melody - just "gestures", as Don Davis himself put it.
Can you hum any of that? More importantly, is it less awesome if you can't? I'll come back to this whole theme of memorability.
_My last issue with both videos is repetition_
While I couldn't say I saw issues in the movies you listed there (perhaps I should re-watch them), I could agree that some composers may be slicker at managing their leitmotives than others. Howard Shore's LOTR trilogy is, perhaps, a great example.
Okay, back to memorability and atmospheric sounds. Here's my reply to an earlier commenter, who touched on it:
He wrote: _I think you_ [this video] _have a point but Hans Zimmers music is still memorable_
Mostly, yes, but the point is that I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing even when it's not. I could, say, listen to _The DaVinci Code_ score in my car again and again. On the other hand, I wouldn't subject my ears to _The Dark Knight_ score outside of the movie (particularly the Joker cues) unless I was a masochist. Still, it's important to recognize that had the latter score been anything other than what it was, it probably wouldn't've landed the same level of impact to the scenes. Just because a score wouldn't make for a particularly good concert experience, like the works of Williams, Goldsmith, Herman and older, doesn't take anything away from it. Sometimes functional doesn't mean memorable or hummable.
1. Just because every director wants their composer to be Hans Zimmer does not make him personally the problem.
2. I can hum the Matrix theme, its an awesome theme.
3.Kind of confused by this, the movies I listed were examples of films that constantly repeated their themes over and over, LOTR is another example of a film that does that sparingly.
4. I never said that a theme had to be memorable to be good or work within a film, I even gave samples of great themes that are not memorable. All I said is now a days themes tend to be more abstract, and or ambient than melodic and orchestral. So were both on the same page here.
Lastly my issue is with the two videos, the one were commenting on, and the one this video is a response too. Both videos ask the question, "Why aren't we getting memorable scores anymore?" But both fail to answer them.
They blame unmemorable scores on Hans Zimmer and temp tracks, when in actuality its that directors want their scores to sound like other scores instead of being original, most scores chose to be hidden or ambient sounds to the picture itself, and were seeing a lack of main title sequences that make the audience listen to score by itself before diving into the picture.
Jonathan Rios
_Just because every director wants their composer to be Hans Zimmer does not make him personally the problem._
Absolutely no argument there. As I jokingly said earlier, Hans Zimmer is the only composer nowadays, who doesn’t sound like Hans Zimmer.
But yeah, it’s bad enough when the studio suits interfere with the creative process and the director has to fold reluctantly, but it’s especially disappointing and sad when the director himself is married to the temp score and insists that the composer copy it, which is something I’ll *never* understand.
_I can hum the Matrix theme, its an awesome theme_
It sure is, but I’m still eager to hear you hum it. ^_^
_Kind of confused by this, the movies I listed were examples of films that constantly repeated their themes over and over, LOTR is another example of a film that does that sparingly_
Are we talking about themes or leitmotifs? The latter is *meant* to re-occur in different incarnations throughout the film. That is its function. Also, restatement is distinct from repetition.
It’s not so much about doing it sparingly, as it is about doing it elegantly and in varied ways, which I would say Michael Giacchino is actually pretty good at too.
_I never said that a theme had to be memorable to be good or work within a film, I even gave samples of great themes that are not memorable. All I said is now a days themes tend to be more abstract, and or ambient than melodic and orchestral. So were both on the same page here._
I must’ve misread you, what with the context of this video and all.
_Lastly my issue is with the two videos, the one were commenting on, and the one this video is a response too. Both videos ask the question, "Why aren't we getting memorable scores anymore?" But both fail to answer them_
I would say they are asking the wrong question altogether. The question should be why is 99% of the scores so homogenized, like it’s all being crapped out of the same giant ass. The answer to that, I think, is quite obvious. :-)
_They blame unmemorable scores on Hans Zimmer and temp tracks, when in actuality its that directors want their scores to sound like other scores instead of being original_
And this is the bane of composers’ existence. As Danny Elfman has said in numerous interviews, things would move so much smoother and quicker if he didn’t have to constantly spend half of his time and energy_“slowly and methodically plying the director loose from the temp score”_
_most scores chose to be hidden or ambient sounds to the picture itself_
James Cameron is among such culprits. One of his notes on the Avatar score was: _"Can you remove the melody and do it with JUST CHORDS?"_ - WTF?! It’s like, my dog could do that. You don’t need James Horner for *that*!
Watching this video was frustrating as hell. I was thinking many of the same things as you throughout it and it barely even touches on the actual themes in the Marvel movies. The new Infinity War trailer speaks to this when they play the Avengers' Theme twice. It has little to do with the music itself and more to do with how Marvel hasn't been using it right, most notably in their marketing for each hero. If each hero had their own recognizable theme and it was played in commercials and trailers for their movies, people would remember those themes.
It's why if you watch any reaction video to the Infinity War trailer, people immediately pick up on the Avengers' Theme. Repetition is the key to remarkable themes.
I absolutely agree. Glancing over in-depth analyses of the melodies, I believe the real reason why the MCU music is not memorable is because they are not given the attention and focus to become memorable.
Take Star Wars, Harry Potter, or James Bond. They are memorable because they are great, but also because when they play, there is nothing complicated on-screen. Star Wars is showing black space and just about to begin its opening crawl. James Bond is just showing the titular gunshot scene and some opening credits. Harry Potter's theme plays during the titlecard zooming through the clouds. The viewer gets to focus on the music. It later gets more recognition as people rewatch the movie, subconsciously burrowing in their minds.
Now Lord of the Rings with its multiple memorable themes - Gollum's Theme plays over the titlecard. Return of the King theme plays over a vast flying shot of landscape. Jaws' Theme plays over a long shot of the ocean.
The second important thing is the composition of the theme itself. The reason why we remember the theme is because the melody is prominent. You don't hear much aside from the melody. Jaws theme starts with only low brass. Star Wars starts with just trumpets. James Bond starts with just bass. Return of the King interchanges a single melody between brass and strings. Harry Potter starts just strings before expanding the melody during its repeat.
What does Marvel have? A common thing in Marvel themes is all composers like to throw in repetitive snippets of quick sixteenth notes with strings that really messes up how you remember a theme. If I made a video response, I would attempt to isolate the music to prove my point.
One last example: DC got the Wonder Woman theme RIGHT. When you hear it, it is just electric cello with nothing else.
The iconic part of superman's motif in 'Flight' was cut out just before it could soar haha. I find Hans in general to have nice melodies across the board. Granted, I listen to his music all the time and since his beginning his sound has become overused and mimic'd... even at times in small part by himself, but his Pirates, Man of steel, Dark knight, Inception bwaaaaam in 'Dream is Collapsin' have become themes of legend. Great themes. I love the dialogue both this and the every frame a painting video have created.
While I rather enjoyed the Superman theme from Man of Steel as well as the Lex Luthor theme and Wonder Woman theme from BvS, I found the rest of those scores rather dull because I have heard all those other pieces before in some form or another from other soundtracks (doesn't help that Junkie XL is essentially a lesser Zimmer clone). Sometimes the pieces bore similarities to the work of other composers and sometimes to Zimmer himself! Never mind the fact that Zimmer has to adhere to temps like everyone else (as well as seek inspiration as he did with Interstellar by listening to Phillip Glass).
Kinda sucks, really. Zimmer was just too influential. For better and for worse. You could make a six hour long video out of all the clichés that have been adopted and regurgitated all because of Zimmer.
Rush, too, which kinda flew under the radar, but is SO. DAMN. GOOD.
Rush was so good, soooo good, esp the music, and jason bourne
This video essay is 100% pure unadulterated bullsh!t. Hanz Zimmer does not deserve to have this rubbish tarnish his hardwork. People dont deserve to be lied to tbh & most people dont fact check bcoz people are lazy
Ehhhhh I wouldn't go as far to say that. I agree with 95% of everything said. Dan has a far better understanding of music than most everyone commenting in here. I personally, and I think many others, believe Hanz to have great melodies and memorable hooks. I do find people in the music community (particularly composers) aren't particularly fond of his music.
Hans Zimmer also wrote the score for "Gladiator" and that is highly memorable with some very well known themes.
I gotta say that "hum-iblity" isn't everything. Interstellar's soundtrack blew me away, and it was just a long chain of slow, pulsing music that swelled and faded alongside the pace of the film
markog1999 I'm surprised he used man of steel as an example
I rather think the ability for a person to hum a film’s theme from memory has more to do with how it fits into the ubiquitous pentatonic scale intervals that-as illustrated by Bobby McFeerin’s excellent presentation at the World Science Festival in 2009-is seared into the instinctual memory of Western audiences. I loath traditional bombastic orchestral scores, particularly in action films. I also loathe directors who pack their films with classic rock or top-40 hits. I appreciate composers who approach scoring to film as a novel medium with its own potential and possibilities, its own set of rules to be stretched to breaking, and a field of relatively untilled soil (particularly compared to the suffocating weight of western classical harmony and its traditions) ripe for planting novel ideas. Maybe they won’t all grow into ripe fruits, and inevitably many will simply wither and die, but how about we give the people who are taking the chances on even a modicum of originality in their field the opportunity to find the right path-something that evokes the right measure of response from audiences while enhancing the visuals it’s paired with in ways we as yet haven’t considered?
So you like boring music.
The point I got from Every Frame a Painting is not that it's because of temp music that no Marvel score is memorable,
but that it's Marvel's conscious decision to "play it safe" by not creating big feelings to the audience,
thus avoiding any kind of controversy.
Isn't it simply that there's no melodies at all for the main theme ?
For many Marvel films, you're right: the main themes either have no melodies, or have very short melodies that don't allow for much creative alteration throughout a film.
Yup, the issue is that they don't reuse many themes aside from The Avengers theme, so nobody remembers them so well. Captain America's March is very traditional and bombastic.
***** I don't think that's true, but I'll go back and analyze some of them to find out.
As an example, I just watched Spellbound, which references its main theme 15 or so times, and secondary themes 8 and 6 times. Superman's theme is referenced about 25 times in the Richard Donner 'Superman'. I'd be very surprised if Marvel's character themes saw that kind of development.
Then again, maybe it's an issue of whether that music is given space, like E.F.A.P. suggested: maybe the Marvel films DO develop their character themes, but just in a very subtle, wallpapery way?
Captain America The First Avenger had great thematic development of Cap's theme, and I wouldn't describe it as wallpaper at all.
Daniel Davis Hmmmm: if you say so. I'll go back and give it another watch, maybe I'll bring it up in one of my upcoming videos, if it turns out to have good thematic development.
When it comes to WB/DC and Disney/Marvel, DC clearly has the upper hand with the music. The Man Of Steel theme is more memorable and straight up better than all of the MCU's ones. Also everybody and their mama remember that Wonder Woman theme from BvS yet I dare one you to hum a track from Civil War which was far more successful than BvS...The MCU themes are just too bland which is a shame because even the Raimi's Spidey movies or the X-men have pretty memorable themes.
no. Agents of SHIELD soundtracks are incredible.
Never mind the music from DC's animated department. It's top tier
This fills in everything I felt was missing from EFAP's video
Filmmaker IQ Glad to see you comment here, John. Fan of your channel.
The one piece that made me sit up was the Goldsmith piece from Chinatown. I knew a "script girl" from the old days -- she babysat Marilyn during the last film, just to get her to rehearsal-- and she worshipped Goldsmith. "A lovely guy, and so funny!"
Can we get a collaboration between this channel and the channels of the top two comments? Please?
Can we please add Nerdwriter1 to that list?
Every frame a Painting, Nerdwriter1, kaptainkristian and Dan Golding- Video Essays. It's would be like the avengers team for UA-cam videos
In all fairness though, the guys over at CINEFIX, VOX and WISECRACK should also be given an opportunity to try out. ;)
Peter Isaac Simon You make a good point. Tryouts?
More: Channel Criswell, Now You See It, StoryBrain
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Animes: Super Eyepatch Wolf
Video Games: Mark Brown
It's so satisfying to see such a constructive dialogue going on here on youtube. This is how all youtube responses should be, a quest to achieve better ideas, instead of a silly competition to see 'who's right'. It's not about winners and losers, but about finding the best explanations for whatever is being talked about. Cheers to both of you!
Thank you for the Theory behind this concept and the evolution of music in hollywood. I think a lot of people either sell it too short or overly criticize what it actually is and don't necessarily understand how - and WHY - the industry uses it. Especially when talking about the great composers like Williams and Horner. This was a great overview. Very educational.
The piece from the opening scene from A New Hope definitely sounds like the end of Gustav Holst's Mars.
I'm a little confused by your last point; The Dark Knight Trilogy and the new Superman films have both memorable soundtracks and very hummable melodies despite being a "landscape of sounds" and textures. I do agree that a select few sounds and textures being easier to simulate with digital contributes to a lot of similar-sounding stuff, but as far as the original topic goes, the Marvel Cinematic music is still forgettable, while none of the Hans Zimmer examples you showed were.
So I think I got your points, but it just seemed a little muddle? Despite that, great content! Looking forward to more.
There are a few points which I think aren't fully addressed in either of the two associated (very good) videos.
Composers in the past DID present their compositions, or at least major themes, to Directors and Producers before the recording session but on a piano. They knew they couldn't get away with lush textures or recording/synth tricks. If there wasn't an accessible, appropriate melody there they were usually told to come back when they had one.
There was far less music in the majority of films before the last generation or so. (look at the short running times of LPs of even big epic films - John Barry had to compose extra music to fill the Zulu OST album) Music was only there when the director/composer thought there was something definite it could contribute. There was no call for aimless burbling and composers had to make the most of their fewer opportunities.
Composers were able to underscore dialogue properly (with the advantage of a locked edit, certainly). When done well the music was a third voice in the dialogue as it inter-weaved between the voices. If instead you have a textural wash or regular percussive clatter then all you can do is dip the volume level under the dialogue, but it still usually inhabits the same frequencies as the dialogue at the same time. That's one reason why dialogue has become harder to hear. Combine mumbling actors, over loud sound effects as monotonous as the composition and a generalized drone of music and no wonder many of the words are unclear. The overall effect is also enervating, a constant bombardment from which we gradually disengage.
My last point is more psychological/sociological and could be applied to a large swathe of the Arts.
Composing (and on the part of the production company, accepting) a strong melody is an act of courage and confidence. It's saying "this is what we think and feel is right - if you don't like it, tough!" in ten foot high letters. It's not hesitant, it's not being afraid to alienate or offend. It's making a definitive, unequivocal, unignorable statement.
Having no music for long stretches of your film is also having confidence that your story and its execution are more than enough to hold interest without a safety blanket of unnecessary, desensitizing music. The Hill, for example, had no music at all and I suspect most people didn't even notice the absence.
The cash-strapped Peeping Tom used only solo piano - extremely powerfully.
I suspect that few composers would now resist the temptation of using half the presets on their synth and dozens of overlaid tracks for even the cheapest film - and would be terrified not to.
Memories play tricks. Think the theme to Goldfinger is pitched at 10 on the bombast scale all the way through? Listen again. Much of it is relatively low key but full of tension desperate to be released. Without the contrast the big finish wouldn't be a fraction as powerful.
Contrast really, really matters.
In most classic films there is a vast difference between the big themes and most of the incidental music. The latter often uses fewer players and is more sparse and exposed. You hear every instrument and each note counts. It had to be as effective as a scalpel. If the dominant instrument in a cue is a solo flute it had better be immaculately playing an appropriate melody as there is nowhere to hide.
On the other hand, a bland wash of me-too music with no dynamic range slathered over everything so that it never means anything much when it may be needed shows the filmmakers lack of faith in their own judgement and the intelligence and taste of audiences.
I've seen Hans Zimmer live. He's so good and definitely revolutionized film music.
But didn't reolutionize it in a good way at all and most people who would disagree with that usually have very little knowledge about pre 2000s film score. Think about all the memorable movie themes such as lawrence of arabia (desert theme), Batman (1989), the heroic Superman theme, Indiana Jones march, Darth Vader theme, Back to the future's heroic fanfare,.... all of that will never return because it's all digital percussion and heavy brass every single fuckin time.
Fucked it more like.
For the worse
That's why I listen to soundtrack music- it doesn't get annoyingly stuck in your head like other kinds of music. And I can play my own movies in my head while I work on my novel and animations :)
I think this and Everyframeapainting's video in the end goes back to second video essay of our channel, steal like tarantino, a play on the steal like an artist book. Culture builds upon culture, we are all ripping eachother off, but adding something new
I still really think The Avengers, Guardians of the Galaxy, Captain America and Iron Man themes are quite hummable. But that said - hummability (if you will) isn't the judge of the quality of music.
Nice video! Agreed on your main point about texture, but feel the thing that both you and Every Frame have danced around has to do with, above all, choice. Making decisive moves, not stylistically, but melodically. I'd point to Trent Reznor and Johny Greenwood as counter examples of Marvel - much more humble production levels (smaller orchestras, two guys in a room with synths) that stand out not only due to the artistry of those musicians, but of their commitment to every musical idea. Hans Zimmer revels in the opposite of commitment, like you're insinuating: bury everything in a "massive" sounding orchestral texture, completely avoiding what he ironically says he's trying to get at, which is a human, performative approach.
Trent Reznor actually does a lot of things like Zimmer, including the constant use of a computer, mind you I do like some of his music.
Hanz Zimmer does not do constant use of a computer. That's a fabricated lie. All it takes is a simple fact check to know the truth. This is why we have the internet so we dont buy into bullsh!t
No, Zimmer uses synths and keyboards quite a bit. Some people even complain constantly that his music would be better if he tried orchestrated it 100%.
theLupeXperience Mind showing evidence? It's your claim, you have to show proof.
On the recent switch from Desplat to Giacchino for Rogue One, the problem to me is not from one to the other but away from John Williams. Now, I think JW hasn't always delivered something memorable (Minority Report's score is one of its weaker points). More importanly JW represents the old style of composition, piano and staff paper and pencil, with a vast knowledge of styles ranging from the Medieval Dies Irae to Coltrane. His classical and jazz training is why he knew how to write a melody, a theme you can latch onto. But Electronic music that was pioneered by Varese, Stockhausen, and Boulez gave birth to the musical institutes that produced Desplat and all these composers reliant on computer notation.
Ironically, Interstellar was all real instruments. But from the liner notes I don't think Hans Zimmer had any idea how simple his compositions were to play for real musicians. Computer music while being potentially limitless is horribly limiting for the composer's imagination because it's removed from real musicians. This is why JW still writes great stuff: he works with local LA orchestra players. My recommendation for all film composers using Finale or Sibelius or whatever, go find that orchestra. Listen to actual music by Sibelius.
I personally believe that a film composer can make memorable themes and film music from electronics and digital instruments like Hans Zimmer. And I do believe another guy/girl is bound to come along as a film composer with a more unique sound while using electronic and digital music.
I think they already have- Interstellar, although performed by real musicians, was written digitally. Hans Zimmer is the JW of the electronic age.
I don't agree that it will ever become better though. It's like CGI you can tell and it has less lasting charm.
Question though: what else do they need that they don't have? Even Zimmer with Interstellar transferred his usual preferred digital score to live instruments and recording.
What is lacking is training, people who are diversely talented musically, and whose imagination can break through the constraints their medium presents them.
Right now I think the jerk circle is too closed. If I had the mind blowing job of finding the next Star Wars composer, I'd do it like a casting director: give composers a fairly normal scene of people interacting and tell them to make it iconic. No digital, no temp, just staff paper and piano.
What's really galling is that as far back as the mid 1800s Berlioz was arguing that the piano was too often the composer's crutch and made all music sound boxed in- standards for teaching composition have fallen through the floor. John Cage is rolling on his grave.
I'm not demeaning anyone who writes using a computer- hell, I love Hans Zimmer and all the rest, and this is a different era, but even the best of them have fallen off in the past decade, and I'm just wondering: what else do they need to do better?
technology is just a tool. when mind is unimaginative, the music will be too
"And here's my favorite in Rachmaninoff's first symphony." xD
I guess the interesting thing about the "sound landscape" approach is maybe you get more close timing, so the music almost becomes sound effects in punctuation, because it can.
Mixed feelings about this idea, because it's also true that a more classical/romantic score can actually hit more important beats in a scene (because it has flexible timing), whereas your standard looping drum tracks actually hit fewer moments (because it must keep an exact beat).
Also, the pitch-preserving time-stretching algorithms of today add to the editors list of tools to help the score click with the action - regardless of whether or not it's a soundscape or a melody.
Thank you for this thorough and thoughtful response to EFAP; I was blown away by both videos. I was most struck by your end line of "creative unoriginality for our era of hollywood". I was wondering about sugesstions for how to do it better? For example, don't use temp music? less use of digitally composed music? take more risks? I feel i know how it might be done badly (eg HZ clones) but not how, in modern times, it might be done well in this context.
I want Basil Poledouris back.
And Jerry Fielding! His name should be part of EVERY discussion of great film score composers.
HERRMANN
Fielding music was often intentionally non-melodic, and more experimental, so I can see why people wouldn't care for his music as well.
Indeed, Poledouris was a boss. He and Jerry Goldsmith are two of my favorite film composers.
Poledouris was the man. His score for Conan The Barbarian, still considered a film score cult classic. His Riders of Doom theme eats everything when it comes to shear orchestral power.
This is the reason why the soundtrack of the Social Network is so memorable, so good, and so innovative. It's like nothing that has ever come before. But like everything that has since come after (also from Reznor and Ross themselves).
Top 10 favorite film composers:
1. John Williams [Star Wars, Indiana Jones, Superman, Jurassic Park, Harry Potter]
2. Danny Elfman [Batman, The Nightmare Before Christmas, Edward Scissorhands]
3. Hans Zimmer [Crimson Tide, The Rock (main theme), Pirates of the Caribbean]
4. James Horner [Titanic, Braveheart, Zorro]
5. Alan Silvestri [Back to the Future, Forrest Gump, Predator]
6. David Arnold [Stargate, Independence Day, Tomorrow Never Dies]
7. Jerry Goldsmith [Star Trek, Gremlins, Air Force One]
8. Basil Poledouris [Conan, RoboCop, The Hunt for Red October]
9. Alan Menken [The Little Mermaid, Beauty and the Beast, Aladdin]
10. Howard Shore [Middle-earth franchise]
Honorable mentions: Ennio Morricone [The Good, the Bad and the Ugly], Bill Conti [Rocky], Randy Edelman [DragonHeart], Harold Faltermeyer [Top Gun], Vangelis [Chariots of Fire]
you can't put Ennio Morricone in honorable mentions. It is blasphemy. :)
lennoyl You think that's bad? I completely left out John Barry! Let's face it, not everyone likes listening to Mozart no matter how phenomenal he was. That's just how preferences go.
Dude...Bernard Herrmann. He's better than everyone you mentioned except Williams and Morricone, who are in his same class.
The absence of Lalo Schifrin (Mission Impossible (the original), Enter the Dragon, Bullit) on your list is striking. Not every amazing score was recorded after Star Wars. Many of the best were recorded in the 60s. Maurice Jarre (Lawrence of Arabia, Doctor Zhivago), Elmer Bernstein (Great Escape, Magnificent Seven, Cape Fear), and Malcolm Arnold (Bridge Over the River Kwai, The Thin Red Line) would like a word with you over some of your choices for “Top 10”.
Mike Kohary Better doesn't mean favorite. Brokeback Mountain may be a better film than say Army of Darkness, but that doesn't mean I'd watch the former more times than the latter. Same thing w/ listening to music. Mad respect for Herrmann though.
My German grandmother, born in 1900, didn't understand in her later, more senile, years how TV works. So, when a studio audience of a big game show waved into the cameras she waved back. Or, when a social-democratic politician appeared on the screen she went behind the TV set to hide from this socialist devil (I can't fathom how she ever watched the news of, say, the Vietnam War).
Anyhow, when at 9:12 you suddenly appeared, and waved your hand to us, I spontaneously waved back. Which reminded me, of course, …
Very instructive video. Thanks.
This video took you only 3 days? You're da real MVP!
The same was true for baroque composers like for example Vivaldi or Bach. Vivaldi used often his own ideas in different concertos, Bach used Vivaldi's melodies which he liked, also there was a time when he needed to write one cantata a week to perform it every sunday having a lot of other work to do as well, so sometimes he has used the same music from his other works putting different words under. Temp music of the other time ;) Tey just had so much composing work to do to fulfill expectations of their employers...
A very interesting video, and you make some great points. But you make it sound like all film music from the last 20 years follow this "Zimmer model", although you focus mostly on Marvel. Listening to most, if not all, of the Academy Award winning scores from the last 20 years will prove that this is not the case. I agree that the impact of digital technology has created a stream of almost identical scores. But to say that we live in an era of creative unoriginality is a huge oversimplification. Film music is primarily there to help the movie tell a story, and create an emotional response. Sometimes, a hummable melody is not the best way to serve the movie. But I applaud you, and Tony Zhou for creating these videos! As an aspiring composer myself, videos on the topic of film music is something I can never get enough of, thank you very much!
Ever since I saw EFaP's video, I've wanted to make a response as well, though one that highlights how, while they aren't as memorable as most soundtracks, we shouldn't discount them. It would showcase the various main themes prominent throughout various MCU film scores. It bugged me that no one in his video could hum a Marvel score because I've spent the last bunch of years listening to them! I totally CAN hum them! And I want to show people how dynamic they can be. Alas, I have no idea how to make video essays, so it's probably just a pipe dream. Your response is excellent! It's a very neat insight into one possible explanation of how MCU scores aren't as memorable to most.
Perhaps hollywood could learn some things from japan? I find anime music (some) really memorable. Take for instance Joe Hisaishi on Miyazaki films. Do they work differently?
I could also mention videogames, but that is surely an extremely different way to include music.
I can't be the only person in here who actually knows all the Marvel movie-themes from start to end, and loves them?
Thor 1, Iron Man and Iron Man 3, Captain America, The Avengers and Doctor Strange has some good themes, but boy, i will never understand why they hired guys like Brian Tyler and Tyler Bates to score some of his major films.
Trust me you arent the only one lol. Personally i love the marvel themes i think the only one i dont really know/ like is black panther and it might just be because its not up there with my favourite films so i guess ive not oayed enough attention. But more or less every other marvel film i love the music. Even goimg back to the Rami spiderman trilogy. Amaaaazing music imo.
You're a minority though. That's the problem. If they did their job better you should be a majority.
Fantastic work Dan and a nice profile picture of the great Bernard Herrmann.
I must say that the father of film music, the great E.W. Korngold INDEED wrote, lets say "pure" original music. He wrote the first symphonic film score in 1935 (Captain Blood) and he treated it and the following pictures as serious works, like his operas he had written before. There were no temp tracks showed to him ever.
The WB Studios even trusted him that much, that he alone decided when to play music and what kind, etc.
He is the only example of that kind I know.
Sometimes you cant tell if its film music or a serious work by the composer but you always hear its Korngold.
All the best!
Fred
I love you tube essays. They make us think through subjects more deeply.
Yes thank you. You brought up Hans Zimmer. His music is the most temp-tracked because it's the among most simplistic to do. This isn't a bash against Zimmer, but rather studios who are trying to push for his sound. A lot of talented composers have struggled to find work because of it.
Every now and then after a few drinks, I begin to waffle on about how John Williams lifted a *lot* of themes from classical pieces. Leia's theme from the first movement of Tchaikovsky's violin concerto, Duel of the Fates from the third movement of Dvorak's New World Symphony, the Jaws theme from the first movement of the same symphony, etc. I could go on and on (and have before) about how unoriginal it was, but this video's changed my view a bit. It makes sense that he would draw inspiration from the most famous pieces of a past era when you look at it historically. Thanks for the change in persepctive!
This was amazing. Subbed! Seriously, the oscar insight and electronic instrument insight and your own composition. Great job.
I am not a musical genius. But I love music. One thing I am good at is falling in love with music. I am not talking about those music that only serves for boasting tension of some specific moments. The main theme that audiences can easily fall in love. When I listen Green Card Gladiator by Hans Zimmer, Love Affair Mission by Ennio Morricone or Titanic by James Horner, I fall in love with the music. The melody that follows the movie is pure joy to listen. I am not talking about temp score nor any technical point of view. They are just simply beautiful music and unforgettable. Now when I listen Avengers' main them, I don't feel much. I just felt it wasn't enough of melody to make me feel anything. Simple melody is good but too simple then it is hard to follow. When you are watching Downton Abbey or even Game of Throne opening, the music(of course we get to listen every episodes) is simply great. I can hum along, I can feel the show. But The Marvel musics aren't that great to begin with. That's my issue of the music as an audience. But Thank you for the Awesome video and I got know know a lot about Original Soundtracks.
To me it's not just the the temp track thing.
I think part of it is that they are constantly changing composers for the sequels. Another video pointed that out.
I think another thing is that these films don't have nice opening credit sequences to set the tone for the movies. If you look at most Marvel movies, they put what would be a cool opening theme and credit sequence at the end of the movie instead of at the beginning.
_they are constantly changing composers for the sequels_
They bring in hungrier, more subservient, bargain bin carbon copies for the sequels. :-)
Worth noting that 2001 is basically all temp tracks. There's a whole entire score composed for it (it's actually pretty good, you can find it on youtube), but Kubrick eventually rejected it and just used the classical pieces he'd used as temp music.
IT's good to see that someone knows what "Temp Tracks" means!
This is a rare example of the internet at it's finest: two really intelligent and well-versed folks offering opinions on a topical subject that needs to be discussed. These were both great videos, yours and the one from "Every frame a painting". Bravo to you both!
The major problem with this video is that it wasn't 3 hours long. Love this stuff
i love hans but thank god we have guys like giacchino keeping the melody alive.
Giacchino is doing the next Marvel movie too
Really?? Which one?
Matt Tee Doctor Strange, out in two months November 4th
Oh wow. Cheers mate
I just hope he isn't forced to copy inception.
I think the modern day Herrmann or Williams is Michael Giacchino. The Incredibles, Ratatouille, Up, Inside Out, Star Trek, Cloverfield, Super 8, Mission Impossible movies, Planet of the Apes movies...all distinct from each other and memorable, full of great hummable melodies and tons of clever harmony and rhythm. When asked to ape classic spy scores for The Incredibles, he produced something that was both familiar and original - tough to do. It's a great score. None of his material sounds electronic or computerized, it sounds like an orchestra in full swing. It's so timed to the motion picture that I have to think it's produced the classic way, when the film is "finished" and the music is the last thing added.
He's doing the new Star Wars movie, I'm excited to hear that. :-)
That's fantastic actually. Of all the tunes I ever got stuck in my head, it was the Incredibles Score that would lodge in most often, and still does.
ha ha good call on James Horner, he reused a lot of music over the years. Not that it wasn't great, but if you hear it often enough it stands out.
I agree that not every movie has a recognizable main theme that people remember, but that is also a result of films moving away stylistically from bombastic matinés. It simply suits some modern films better.
I don't agree that Marvel films have scores without melody though. The most important theme in the MCU is the Avengers theme, which is used as a hero theme in the movies. Transformers have Arriving Earth, which is very hummable. Its good that scores are evolving and each creator is free to mix melodic movements with more rhytmic movements focused on creating atmosphere.
I would argue that Captain America Winter Solider is an exception. Just search for the remixes on UA-cam. Excellent workout music.
Also - no mention of how 2001’s soundtrack originally WAS the temp tracks? An original score was commissioned (and completed!) before Kubrick realized he’d rather just use the classical pieces instead.
To me the fact that you can't remember anything from marvel is simple: There are not main character scores that strongly identify character or movie itself that are then used as a basis for other music in the movies.
Let's grab harry potter: the theme song is used everywhere from full orchestra to beying played on a single xylophone in calmer moments, and it's repeated in every movie. Same for star wars. Marvel movies just don't have a theme song for any of their characters. You could pen this on the technology allowing everyone to meddle in it, but lots of memorable tracks were created this way, including pacific rim's score, inception, pirates of the carribean, and even Lion King.
This show every well with DCCU who dosent have any issue with using the same team for Superman in BvS or WW theme in ther trailer, is HER theme that stick
Leitmotif, you're taking about leitmotifs.
Awesome addendum to the earlier MARVEL-related video! MANY THANKS!! One small thing... at 8:27 Zimmer is specifically referring to timbres, tones, and musical atmospheres he sculpts by hand (non-orchestral sounds), within the computer and/or his massive array of synthesizers (analog and digital), by himself, and/or with collaborators. He's not talking about orchestral instruments he uses in demos/mock-ups and keeping them in the score. Also (and I know this is not a Marvel film) his first Sherlock Holmes film is fantastically thematic, as is Inception (among others).
One major problem is also the amount of repetition. Basically none of the Marvel themes are used much throughout the movie and when they are it's often very small bits or with lots of sound effects drowning out the music. Besides that none of their themes are repeated throughout the series of movies. Where Star Wars clearly uses the same recognizable themes throughout all films, all three Iron Man movies have completely new themes while basically none of the themes are carried over to the sequels. If something like "Driving with the top down" was actually used in Iron Man 2, Iron Man 3, the Avengers films, etc. and it was allowed to play in a way that it can actually be heard a couple of times, it might be recognizable by now, even though it's not as hummable as something like the Star Wars theme.
When I saw the description that this would be a response to the EFAP video, I was skeptical. There are dozens of video essays on youtube, most with superficial analysis and no technique when it comes to voiceover. Thankfully this was not the case. Great evidence, clips, and you complemented the original video wonderfully without condescending.
Great work!
My favorite composer is Thomas Newman. If anyone wants to be refreshed by a beautiful, iconic score, just watch Road to Perdition.
As a TV composer, the most common temp tracks I ever hear are from his American Beauty.
Thomas Newman is the best. His work with Sam Mendes is amazing in general.
And how about the opening of _Cinderella Man?_ Man, that was powerful. That's just one, but he has a long list of beautiful scores too.
Yup, definitely one of the best drama composers.
Funny thing, the soundtrack features one John M. Williams. Conducting? I think.
Angels In America is, imho, Thomas Newman's magnum opus.
Quick disambiguation: Hans Zimmer was talking about sampling and how effectively he had performed every note in the score, he was saying at that point that he hadn't actually played it, the computer did, but it was his performance of each note sampled.
Daft punk. Tron legacy.
What's strange is that Zimmer's earlier stuff _was_ very memorable. Everyone knows Inception, and his theme for Millennium has been stuck in my head for over 20 years, and I never even _watched_ it.
All this time I really thought Zimmer was using an orchestra. I know he used a real pipe organ for Interstellar, at least, but I never would have guessed nearly all his work is digital.
He does. His work is a mixture of live recorded stuff and digital music. He uses a computer for the "writing" process and to create the texture. Even after recording a piece, his team modifies it to sound similar to the digital piece that he wrote earlier. I remember him talking about inception music, he said after creating the soundscape of the movie, he gave it to his recording team to imitate the electronic music.
he does. he just has every note prerecorded so he can get ideas. the problem is, since he made making music easier people just modify his work
He creates production work digitally. However when he's on a tour or something, he takes the orchestra with him.
Fascinating. It's all true.
That said, for me, the key point in the 'Every Frame A Painting' post was about musical judgement, not originality. This was illustrated with the moment in 'Thor' where the loyal chums turned up: it was scored originally for laughs, then it was rescored by the vlogger with a musical piece which spoke of the characters, their relationship and the meaning of their friendship. The latter is more emotionally involving. Seeing as emotional involvement is one of the prime nominal purposes of a story, it's hard
to argue that opting for a laugh where none is needed instead of emotional involvment is the most potent storytelling technique.
Judgement is the thing.
Originality in music, as in storytelling itself, is vanishingly rare. Principles have been established over millennia. They're founded in primal human responses; emotional and physical. They're there for a reason.
The fact is, when something 'works', no-one truly cares whether or not it's 'original'. Indeed, the chances are it's not original in any meaningful sense. Which is *why* it 'works'.
Originality is overrated. Judgement is all.
"What Are You Going To Do When You Are Not Saving the World?" Great Zimmer's Superman melody right there. Joker's theme is a harsh tension, makes sense, no strong melody, but it's definitely not forgettable. Batman's, Dent's, Bane's or Catwoman's themes are great and memorable, Zimmer and Howard did a fantastic job, IMO.
Steve Jablonskys Score for the Bay-Formers series is one of the all time greatest, I dont care what anyone else says. Its so much more powerful on its own than it was used it the films.
F*ck that was awesome, between the two of you are making wild stuff dudes, keep it up!
Interesting video. A quote from Hans Zimmer "One of my greatest ambitions is to keep orchestral music alive, so I try to use as many live musicians as I possibly can." from his Reddit AMA.
You nailed it buddy! Let me know if you ever want to collaborate on a video, I have a pretty big youtube channel and studied film music for my dissertation at uni- namely the works of Danny Elfman. I much preferred his very hummable score to Batman 1989 than the modern soulless Zimmer stuff!
wow
Maybe not all, but some MCU movies does have pretty hummable themes, for example Iron Man, Avengers and even Thor (I'm talking about the first Thor's soundtrack, not the Immigrant Song). Also not the MCU movie, but Raimi's Spider-man had one of the most memorable soundtracks that is still imprinted in my mind and correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Danny Elfman wrote most of that score with live instruments?
Great video! What program did you use to write that small 'generic' score?
I was wondering this as well.
Indeed, GarageBand - www.apple.com/mac/garageband/
Also Logic Pro - www.apple.com/logic-pro/
this is by far one of the most eye opening videos about film i've seen on youtube
Dude - and then you composed the Untitled Goose Game music !!!
There are exceptions. Henry Jackman's score for Captain America: Winter Soldier is very melodic and pretty brilliant at it. It's coincidentally also one of the best Marvel films with a definite anti-war message, contrary to many of the other Marvel films.
Subscribed and waiting for more
Certainly in the Golden Age of Hollywood music, there were times when even favorites of mine used temp tracks. Alfred Newman used the same music when Victor Mature was being rescued by Richard Burton in "The Robe" that he used when Charles Laughton was chasing Maureen O'Hara in "The Hunchback of Notre Dame." Miklos Rozsa used the same Roman march in "Ben-Hur" that he used in "Quo Vadis." However, I think you sell old Hollywood short at times. Consider Jerry Goldsmith's psychological study of Gen. Patton in "Patton." In the opening theme, Goldsmith uses an organ to imply the almost religious fervor of Patton toward war. Goldsmith writes a beautiful jazzy theme throughout "Chinatown."Alex North uses jazz themes in, of all things, a Roman epic ("Spartacus."). Elmer Bernstein used simple piano music to open "To Kill a Mockingbird." And, we haven't gone into Bernard Herrmann. The whole frantic tone of "North by Northwest" was set by his music for the opening credits.
You sounded like virtual composing cannot achieve melodies and harmonies and unforgettable soundtracks. Well, there is this guy called Jeremy Soule..
Video games have a different philosophy. I believe video game music is the next playground for creative composers. Battlefield franchise, Elder Scrolls franchise, Final Fantasy etc etc..
I love your point about Skyrim. I hardly played Skyrim and I can hum the theme, whilst I've seen every marvel movie multiple times and really I can't recall the themes. The only memorable songs are in GoTG and that's because they used the mix tape motif.
Gabrielle DeGeorge GotG actually has a pretty good score, although most will not remember it between all the pop songs. Try out "black tears" or "sacrifice".
And Hans Zimmer...
Jeremy Soule is a champ at making bland copy score music with zero originality. There's a reason he's a video game scoring composer and generally only has been that. There's a reason the good ones such as Giacchino moved up from that.
You need to do more of these. This is a great response to Tony's video and honestly quite the interesting look on the other side of things
Great video, love both your channels. You and Every Frame as well as Nerdwriter1 kinda inspired me to start video essays. I have a few on my channel covering 'Her', 'Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind', 'Suicide Squad' and Xavier Dolan's Masterpiece 'Mommy'. If you are interested I would really appreciate any feedback as am just trying to get started!
About the earlier use of temp tracks, e.g. Star Wars: Since audio editing was more of a chore 40+ years ago, did there actually exist a preliminary cut of Star Wars featuring the temp music you mentioned, or would it have been a case of Lucas or his creative team telling John Williams "for this scene we want something sounding like [temp music title]"? Or could it have been John Williams pulling from those sources unprompted by the director?