I think that it is a key*to understanding our creator that we must first become parents ourselves. Until we do, our knowledge cannot be complete about the love of a parent for their child and their spouse. Now I’m waiting for my kids to get older and have their own children so I can become a grandparent and the circle will almost be complete.
I can see the garden of Eden for sure being a temple. And Jesus is the tree of life. The ending in revelation is of course the celestial degree of glory and of course it is book ends. We see the tree of life for sure Jesus Christ. The living water . What do you want? Try what is wanted ? What is wanted ? Do you know?to converse with the Lord through the veil. Meaning through Jesus you come to the father . No man comes to the Father except through Jesus Christ. What is the love of God? It is Jesus Christ. For God so loved the world that he gave his only gotten Son. That who so ever believeth shall not perish but have ever lasting life. . All things point to Jesus Christ . Don’t get off the mark guys.
We love our families and our children. A mothers love is of course more christ like then anything . When showing what the tree of life means of course they will show Mary holding Jesus. The baby Jesus Mary is holding in her arms is the tree of life. Mary is not the tree of life fellas . If that isn’t clear enough for you then Nephi is told to look . What does he see? If this isn’t easy enough for you ? Nephi sees Jesus his mission his life his trial his healing the sick and blind and healing leopards and all manner of disease and sickness. The last supper . Jesus dying on the cross . Jesus being resurrected . How more plain and simple can it get guys who the tree of life is. The bread of life living water . Mary is not the tree of life . Mary is a mortal who needs her Lord and savior just like we all Do. Jesus gives us life . Don’t make something so simple complicated. Nephi sees the New Testament teachings. Jesus birth his whole life his ministry and His death and resurrection . This isn’t hard to understand at all.
I was so hungry for this conversation and I didn't realize it until I heard it. Thank you for all the wonderful insights and new ways of understanding the scriptures! 💚
If anyone would like to worship the True Lord God, please head over to Cornerstone Chapel Online, Leesburg Virgina. There are online services Sundays at 830, 10 and 1130 EST
Margaret Barker has written something like 18 books now..? And many many essays and lectures on what the “older” testament may have been. She is a lay Methodist preacher and biblical scholar from the UK who uses all available ancient texts (nag hammadi library, gnostic, Dead Sea scrolls, Septuagint, masoretic text, pseudoepigraphica, apocrypha/deutero canon, etc etc etc) to tease it out. She’s given lectures at BYU, I’ve heard Mike reference her work on his scripture podcast, and she’s given several lectures to LDS audiences at like FAIR and Interpreter Foundation. I don’t agree with all of her conclusions, but I’ve also only read half of The Great Angel (where she makes the case that Yahweh/Jehovah of the Old Testament IS Jesus, like LDS believe), and a few of her essays and lectures, but I find her research to be fascinating. There’s a video series of lectures from like ten years ago put out on the Academy for Temple Studies channel that deals with “the lady in the temple”/Heavenly Mother that is really interesting (she is one of the speakers, along with LDS scholars and non-LDS academics of varying sorts). It would be great if there were more LDS people doing research like hers, but it is always so nice when non-LDS academics do research that serves to bolster LDS doctrine and beliefs!
@@gingersnaps215I listened to her and her finding Heavenly Mother . Even though we agree we have a heavenly mother I found she did Botha e the Holy Ghost with her at all. Sorry
I watched one with David Butler that I really liked . But then he took out of context about the salt that looses its savor is good for nothing and to be trampled on . He then used as a n example how Coriantian teaches there is no Christ and is killed trampled on saying that is a penalty in the temple . No it is not . There is no such thing as that taught in the temple and you know it . This is why some people think it is a cult because of false teachings like this . They think a pact is madero get killed or kill yourself or a pact made to lil for revenge . First of all we never killed to get revenge or made a pact to do so. Only self defense and we were the ones getting killed . Next you know that there are many many people who have left the church wrote books told whatever they thought they knew which is nothing go on Mormon stories . Do or try to do much harm to the church . Could David Butler please tell us who is going to kill them or who is trying to kill them or who is so scared or hiding out ?? Or who is getting trampled under feet ??? Please do tell us . Who has that ever happened to ever ? Oh yes God is Going to kill them ?? Kill them when they die ?? How laughable. Stop with these lies David Butler . The only thong they loose has nothing to do with this earth at all. What they lose is which includes whicheternal life . Not going to celestial kingdom
I have been listening to One for Israel pod casts for the last couple of years. They are Messianic Jews, they have opened my eyes to Jewish understanding of the Old Testament, they do a beautiful job. One of they did a multi lecture/ discussion on the history of the Pharisee’s and what they were doing with the law of Moses and the additions made by them. I highly recommend those discussions as well.
I have been listening to Amir and One for Israel for almost 4 years. He is an evangelical and after many years started really bashing the “Mormon” Church. Then some of the other evangelical ministers started doing the same thing. They are also telling everyone that they won’t live through the tribulation which is NOT what Jesus says. They also do not believe in baptism. I feel that they are teaching a lot of truth and the. Throw in some untruths that are actually going to cause huge problems for his thousands of followers that aren’t prepared physically or spiritually. He has helped me to understand the Bible better through understanding what it means in Hebrew.
I LOVE MIKE DAY! He has had the biggest impact on my knowledge and testimony out of any church mentor. It’s like he speaks my language. He got me through 3.5 years of gospel doctrine teaching! And might I add we do not deserve his show notes for free😂He has no idea who I am but I consider him a good friend. (haven’t even started this episode yet but I know it will be incredible…🤞🏼hoping Josiah’s reforms get spoken about😃)
“We just spent… an hour and a half… talking about stuff that really matters.” Exactly! This is a perfect way to explain this channel. The seekers find, and you have found gold, I love that you are sharing it with us.
If anyone would like to worship the True Lord God, please head over to Cornerstone Chapel Online, Leesburg Virgina. There are online services Sundays at 830, 10 and 1130 EST
"Similar beliefs in other religions in 600 BC". Sure, check out Zorarastrianism of Persia at this time period. Ahura-mazda great spirit. If you think that there was one original truth, then multiple apostatises, we can find elements of truth in all religions. Then in this restoration the true elements are brought together. We are not talking about the restoration of pure Christianity and its apostasy, this is about the restoration of the proto-religion, the beginning of all things. How crazy to think that I have stumbled onto the truth. But yes, this is it. I try and circle out from our church and look at other religions and ask myself again, is this it? I am constantly reconverted to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It provides salvation of all people. No other religion does this. Try and unpack just the name of the church. That is a fun exercise. Amazing.
Yes! The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints means there was once a Church of Jesus Christ of Former-day Saints. It’s the name of a church that belongs to an organized, multi-millenial God-the one and only Jesus Christ.
Asking out of curiosity, What significance is this channel and Mike Day of to you as an RLDS (and correct me if I’m wrong) don’t believe in the historical authenticity of the Book of Mormon and don’t believe in the restoration of the temple?
I recently started watching some of your videos here at The Stick of Joseph. I've been listening to Mike Day and Bryce Dunford for some time now on their Talking Scripture podcasts. When I stumbled upon the Talking Scripture podcast 73 with Dave Butler I fell in love with Dave's 2 books, and I am looking forward to the next book soon! I also wanted to give a BIG THANK YOU to Mike Day. I watched this video Jesus being edited from the Old Testament yesterday(May 15, 2024). I have heard the pun on the name of Nephi meaning "Good" before, but the way that it connected with some things that I have been studying about the 3 Nephites in 3rd Nephi 28 for the last 20+ years, some things I was pondering last night about those ideas, and how it all connected..............IT JUST TOTALLY BLEW MY MIND!💥 The Spirit just flooded over me in such a profound way. A dozen or more connections instantly came together! I don't know that I could explain it. One of the recent videos I watched from Mike, he explained an experience he had in trying to verbalize something the Spirit taught him, and people get a glazed look in their eyes. He couldn't explain it, but he knew that it was important! Its like that! I'm trying to write it all out the next day, on how it all came together in my head, but I don't know where to start! Believe it or not, but I think First Nephi 1:1 also ties in with 3 Nephi 28 on translated beings like Enoch, John the Beloved, and the 3 Nephites. Then we have Alma departing in Alma 45, and how they believe he was "...buried by the hand of the Lord, even as Moses(Alma 45:19)." Or Nephi the son of Helaman departs in 3 Nephi 1. Footnotes point to the possibility that he was translated like Alma. I believe there is much more, but I can't put it into words yet. Again, please pass on my sincerest thanks to Mike Day! YA'LL SO TOTALLY ROCK!
As I have read the BofM the last few years I have been amazed to see the Temple ceremony and symbols, and meaning ect, unfold in layer's especially in the first few chapters. I am sure there is SO much more to see. Beautiful!! Thank you for being willing to have these conversations. I am learning so much. Not just by what you're saying but by the Spirit.
Mike Day blows my mind! How could you even question the gospel after listening to him? Talking scripture with Mike and Bryce has been amazing to me! I wish I knew Hebrew and Greek! Is it too late for me?🤣 Amazing! I’ve listened to this about 7 times now! No joke! We need Mike Day!
Se Joseph Smith criou o livro de Mórmon, no mínimo deveria ser reconhecido como o pai da literatura, é uma obra muito complexa para ser criado em tão pouco tempo e ainda morrer por isso, Tolkien levou uma vida para fazer as histórias do Senhor dos Anéis tendo um sofisticado conhecimento universitário.
A única maneira que o mundo reconhecerá ao obra do livro de mórmon é quando eles aceitam mesmos. Por que eles aceitarão algo que não concorda com os ideologizas deles mesmos? Se for tão lógico, ninguém poderão contestar as ideas e “problemas” que existem. É bem similar ao bible bashing. Só o espírito pode converter uma pessoa e deixa eles abertos ao verdade.
Im a Traditionalist/Originalst Christian amd I enjoy seeing you guys searching for Truth. I hope youre also open to believing how the Bible is beyond real. May God bless you guys. Not everyone who disagrees with you hates you!! ❤
I hope our assertion the Bible isn't inerrant doesn't lead you to believe we don't believe the Bible. We believe the Bible. We study from the KJV in English in particular. We hold it up alongside the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon testifies of the Bible. But we also believe church leaders, Latter-day Prophets, etc. are also fallible. If we believe everything from holy scripture to the words of holy prophets are neither inerrant nor infallible, are we just faithless wanderers? No. We believe in the gift and power of the Holy Ghost to teach us truth, to help us discern between truth and error. What this challenge does is it puts the onus back on us as individual disciples to become familiar with the word of God in all its complexities and to learn the voice of God for ourselves. We will all make mistakes along the way, but I have had enough experiences to know God is real, Jesus Christ is Savior, and that the Book of Mormon and Bible are true in part because they testify of Them. I know this because of the power of the Holy Ghost which teaches us all things (John 14:26). I appreciate and admire what Christian and biblical scholars, philosophers, and other disciples have done. I devour books from other Christian authors because they can provide perspectives outside the LDS framework that helps me better understand God. God is clearly guiding people of all faiths. I can read and study from them and it only strengthens my confidence in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and in the Book of Mormon because my faith in those are founded in faith in Jesus Christ.
When Jesus appears in the Book of Mormon, the first thing he does is testify of His divine role, then He dispels some of the confusion that existed at the time. He makes plain what His doctrine is, again affirming it is centered around His divine role, and that through believing in Him and is baptized shall be saved and inherit the Kingdom of God. He comments that "the gates of hell shall not prevail" against those who build upon this doctrine (3 Nephi 11:39) but not to proclaim anything more or less than that as His doctrine. This means, yes, there can be more to God's word than the doctrine of Christ. That is the foundation. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints claim is that we have the simple doctrine of Christ, the authority to baptize in His name, and we've been given more on top of that foundation and that is our offer to the world.
Hey! Utah-born and Utah-raised Baptist pastor here. I have really enjoyed watching your channel. Typically I'm content just to sit and learn. But Mike's diving into an area here that I actually have some training and experience in, so I feel OK weighing in a bit. The primary weakness of Wellhausen's Documentary Hypothesis is that it is merely a hypothesis. There exists no consensus on dating the proposed contributors. Since the 1960s, scholars have challenged every element from dating to classification, to what can be accepted as evidence for any of those proposed redactors. Rolf Rendtorff, in his 1977 work on "The Problem of the Pentateuch" argued that evaluating the Penteteuch in terms of JEDP "sources" was academically unhelpful. Instead, he proposed six units of development, primeval history, patriarchal history, the Exodus, Sinai, the wilderness wanderings, and the settlement. Rendtorff recognized what many scholars since the 1960s do, that Wellhausen's theory has significant weaknesses. As a secularist himself, he proposed another theory on how Genesis came to be. Against Wellhausen and Rendtorff, I would say that there is nothing in the Pentateuch that would influence me away from holding to Mosaic authorship. J. H. Tigay argues that since we can see a development and redaction history in documents making up the Samaritan Pentateuch and the Epic of Gilgamesh, the Documentary Hypothesis carries weight. I would argue that with the SP, we actually have objective evidence that show stages of development. IOW, we have the proto-Samaritan Exodus from Qumran and the SP. But with the Pentateuch, we don't have anything but the completed work. So arguing for anything other than a cohesive whole is just a guess. With Gilgamesh, we can empirically verify the development of the multiedited text. We can't do that with Genesis, because all we have is the completed Genesis. I'm already going way deeper than a UA-cam post typically does. But I'll just finish by saying that the apparent reason that there is so little consensus on JEDP and Wellhausen is that it's entirely a guess. It's an educated and complex guess with a lot of moving parts. But it's still just a guess. As a Christian who holds to Biblical authority, I have no problem accepting the existence of the supernatural. In fact, my belief in the supernatural is baked into my view on Scripture itself. There is no empirical data to work from for scholars attempting to argue against the Divine authorship of the Pentateuch through the pen of Moses. What's more, Jesus, himself, says that Moses wrote the Pentateuch in Luke 24:44, John 5:46, John 7:19, and elsewhere. Put simply, when it's the guess of scholars vs. the plain words of my savior, I'll go with Jesus.
Caleb, thanks for listening to the “Stick of Joseph.” I (Mike Day) promised myself that I wouldn’t jump in the comments for several reasons. One is that so many are contending things I did not say, and it can be a bit frustrating. I also promised myself that by creating the document that addresses my assertions that people could simply go and check them out (see the link in the description above). That being said, here I go jumping into the comments. Some scholars, including Richard Elliott Friedman, contend that the Documentary Hypothesis (or a modification of this model) is still the most compelling explanation for the formation of the first five books of the Bible, despite recent attacks from what he calls “traditional and radical scholars.” (Friedman, The Bible with Sources Revealed, p. 7). He claims that the hypothesis is supported by a convergence of evidence from multiple sources, including linguistic analysis, literary style, and historical context. I would say that a close analysis of his evidence is compelling. Friedman (and many others) points to the existence of doublets, or repeated stories and laws, as one of the strongest pieces of evidence for the Documentary Hypothesis. I have added to his list as I have found additional doublets, and you can see them on my website at BrotherDay.org under the heading “Stories Told Twice in the Bible.” Friedman identifies several, and with my additions, as of today, I have located 35 doublets in the Torah, some of which are identical and others that differ in detail. This suggests that multiple authors were involved in the composition of the text, and that these authors may have had different agendas or perspectives. When you do a deep dive on what they are saying, it becomes clear that these authors had very different political views, and some would argue even different theological ones. Another key piece of evidence is the consistent relationship between the Priestly source (P) and the earlier sources of the Torah. Friedman asserts that P was composed later than the Yahwist (J) and Elohist (E) sources, and that it was written by someone who was familiar with J and E in their combined form. This indicates that P was composed as an alternative to the JE version of Israel's story, and that it was intended to promote the interests of the Aaronid priesthood. P was reacting to the earlier material. This is happening all over the place. I wrote a 60+ page paper on this topic of the DH and how it is viewed by past and present scholars if you would like to see the information I can provide. I am citing around 80 scholars on this topic, so I cast my net fairly wide. Just go to “Talking Scripture” and shoot me an email by going to the “About” section, scrolling to the bottom, and posting a comment. (For some reason, UA-cam does not want me to share links in this comment!) We can also discuss how the Documentary Hypothesis is supported by linguistic and stylistic analysis, which reveals distinct differences between the various sources of the Torah. Many assert that these differences cannot be explained by the traditional view that Moses wrote the entire Torah, and that they are best explained by the hypothesis that multiple authors were involved in its composition. Just my brief discussion with the Paul brothers lays out the beginning of the arguments. There is a lot of material here to work with and Jackson and Hayden and I could dig into the evidence for over 40 hours of video and bore their audience into oblivion. This is why I told them I’d write my short paper and the folks that want more can read what I have provided. The evidence of multiple authorship is extensive. That being said, I understand the arguments of David Carr in “Reading The Fractures of Genesis,” when he goes into detail that Wellhausen is incorrect in many areas. But Carr will even acknowledge what he calls “P” and “Non-P” material. I will say Friedman’s short analysis of what scholars are continuing to not engage with regards to the argument is persuasive. To read his arguments regarding how scholars generally are not engaging the evidence, go to “What is the Documentary Hypothesis? A Short Introduction” on my site “Talking Scripture” and scroll to the bottom where it says “Richard Friedman’s Defense of the Documentary Hypothesis.” I keep trying to comment on UA-cam and when I post the links to these articles, my posts are deleted automatically. Apparently UA-cam thinks I am in violation for posting these links. His contention that the evidence for the Documentary Hypothesis is profound and compelling, and that it continues to be the central model in which most scholars work. He suggests that recent attacks on the hypothesis are based on flawed arguments and a lack of engagement with the classic and current evidence that supports it. At the end of the day, you the reader get to decide what you think. I love the end of his argument (Sources, p. 31), when he says, “The combined weight of the evidence that one will observe there, together with the evidence that is collected here in this section, should make it clear why this explanation of the biblical origins has been so compelling for more than a century. And, whether one agrees with this explanation, questions it, or challenges it, one will have in front of him or her the evidence to address. It is amazing that at this point, when such a mass of evidence is available, some writers still discuss this at so low a level as, for example, arguing about whether "different names of God" constitutes proof or not, or whether doublets prove multiple authorship, or whether a beautiful literary structure (for example, a chiasm) is evidence for a single author. Or some just say that "the hypothesis was disproved long ago" or "nobody accepts it anymore." Here, rather, is the evidence, for anyone to see, evaluate, acknowledge, or refute.” I am in the space of not knowing, but I also like looking at stuff and seeing clues that show me how to reframe my ideas and beliefs. And, like the Paul brothers, I am always curious and hungry.
Social media comment threads aren't always the most helpful (or the best place for significant discussion), so I'll save my meatiest comments for an email with you. But for the sake of anyone reading later, I'll respond here publicly. @@talkingscripture Hey Mike! Thanks for taking the time to write such a significant response. I actually found Talking Scripture through a friend of mine who's a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints while we were discussing Hebrews recently. I'll find your email on your channel, because this is a significant point of discussion. I'm not a PhD student or anything like you are, but I do hold a couple of masters degrees and I concentrated on Greek and Hebrew in grad school. When it comes to DH sources, the ones I mentioned in my comment are a few of the big names. But as with all academia, sometimes the lesser-known voices are the most beneficial. I'm sure there is a great deal you can teach me on that front. But I do find Whybray's criticisms of the DH to be weighty. 1) variation in language, repetition, and (apparent) contradictions can be explained by deliberate use of those features for aesthetic and literary purposes. 2) by breaking up the narrative into source materials the DH tends to make those literary features irrelevant. 3) variations in style and language can be explained by differences in subject matter. And (in his words) 4) "there is inadequate evidence to support the presence throughout each of the documents of a single style, purpose and point of view or theology, and of an unbroken narrative thread. (Making of the Pentateuch, 130). Granted, most of my research was done using sources that were more than a decade old. You may be aware of information that provide meaty answers to these points. My personal biggest objection to the DH models, as I alluded to earlier, is that they are all hypothetical. They begin by assuming Moses didn't write the Pentateuch, and then they hypothesize on who might have written it. No matter how complex the analysis is, DH models are still trying to build a system upon that core presupposition. My presupposition is that Moses did write it. And absent extant evidence to the contrary, I'm comfortable where I am.
@@calebschaaf1555 I’ve heard Mike talk a lot about the Documentary Hypothesis, and I’ve heard several other non-LDS channels talk about it (most notably Useful Charts’ Bible videos), but you’re the first I’ve heard argue for Mosaic authorship against the DH. If you live in Utah, do you think you could have a discussion on Mike’s podcast about it? I know I’m not the only one who would like to hear the various points presented from “opposing sides” (not in a contentious way, obviously). @talkingscriptue, what do you say?
@@psychlops924 I've reached out to Mike in an email. Before jumping into a public discussion, I'd like to talk one-on one for a bit. He's a bit further along with his academic credentials than I am. But our shared love of Tolkien, Star Wars, and the biblical languages could lay the groundwork for something down the road.
@@calebschaaf1555Thank you for commenting on the DH. As a non LDS Christian who also approaches the Bible as the word of God, I too reject the DH. Well, maybe not all together, but no matter how the books of the Bible came together, I'm 100% certain that God was guiding the process into the end result. I've enjoyed many of the presentations from Chuck Missler. Here's one of his quotes..."In fact, as we begin to understand the Bible from an information science point of view, we discover the integrity of the total package manifests a strategy to avoid hostile jamming. It’s interesting to note that we can’t say, “Where’s the chapter in the Bible on baptism? Where’s the chapter on salvation?” There is no critical subject in the Bible that is found in only one passage. Every major issue is explained or portrayed repeatedly by a wide variety of authors in a multitude of passages." If you search online for "hyperlink text Bible image" you will find a stunning image of this very thing. It shows how interwoven every chapter of the Bible is with all the other chapters. So, no matter how much editing and redacting might have gone into the books of the Bible, at the end of the day we have what God intended to be there. The Welsh revival didn't come about by believers who were doubtful about the authenticity of the Bible. Desmond Doss didn't accomplish his super human feat of saving all of those lives while surviving hell on Earth with doubts about who the author of the Torah was. God will bless those with a childlike faith and will use them to confound the "wise" of this world. I believe/know Adam and Eve were created about six thousand years ago. I believe/know there was a worldwide flood. I know Jesus was crucified, buried and raised back to life. The world thinks I'm a fool, but the world gets more and more foolish everyday. Have a blessed day. I pray readers will be blessed by this post.
I’m listening to this and loving it. In terms of Mike mentioning that Lamen and Lemuel beat nephi with a rod, angel saying stop “it’s his rod”. I actually think that the rod is currently in the hands of Laben and the rod changes hands from Laben to Nephi when nephi takes the sword and the clothes. Very similar to when David takes Goliaths amor and sword. The mantle of kingship is changing hands. Thanks for doing this episode!! Brings up so many good memories from my own readings (many suggested by Mike and Bryce) David Butler wrote a great book that helps iron some of this stuff too. Cheers my new friends and carry on!!!
Before anyone writes a book they are to take it ti the first presidenecy first for approval . That is the law laid out for writing books . Why do people not listen ?? Too scared your book will not be approved ? Why not do as you are asked ??
@@lindamartinez7006 I guess you better tell Deseret Books. I doubt 99% of those books were passed 'for approval'. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and at no point did he say this is the official position of the church. No approval is needed.
Loved the discussion. It made my day. It also came at a great time as I’ve recently finished Nibley’s Lehi in the Desert, which discusses in detail the Egyptian influence in Jerusalem before his departure. Anyway, his words there helped with some of these ideas, contextually speaking. Anyway, I am rambling about nothing. This was great.
I'm fascinated by Mike's scholarship and I can tell he is influenced by Margaret Barker's work, another scholar who fascinates me. My question is this, when I read Barker I come away feeling like King Josiah was a villain, but church manuals don't give me the same impression. He is given more credit. I'm inclined to agree with Day and Barker because of the life and story of Lehi. Is this even an issue for anyone else?
I am so glad that this video came up for me. I have a group that gets together each week to discuss. Mormonism versus Christianity. Last Monday we went over the book of Mormon and whether it is valid in our day today. Relationship with Jesus Christ in our Father in heaven. Sometimes the spirit moves me and helped me communicate a very strong testimony of the validity of the book Mormon. Last week or on Monday it wasn't there. I offer to you both an invitation to come in be a part of the conversation over zoom this coming Monday on the validity of the book of Mormon. I have at least two to three pastors and an ex Mormon that is a part of the conversation. It would be great to have some help on my side or the side of the church and you guys would fit in without a doubt
The test of a prophet is whether they are consistent with the reveled word of God. Joseph Smith rejects saved by grace alone. He rejects Monotheism, He rejects the SHEMA, he rejects Jesus as the one true God (since there is but one). The book of Abraham is enough to draw into enormous question the validity of him as a prophet. I highly commend to you to read the New Testament without any preconceived notions and watch "apologia studios" videos on here when they visit with mormons. Isaiah tells us there is only one God... none before or after. Because the teachings of the church contradict the old and New Testament, it is decidedly false.
@@Golfinthefamilylol you read the New testament with the preconceived notion that by grace alone we are saved. Is choosing to follow Christ not works in itself, what does it mean to follow Jesus Christ. Simply believing is not enough you must follow him. The Bible says so, to know him is to follow him and to keep his commandments. His grace is sufficient for those who follow him. You don't know him. The godhead is 1 god with three bodies. The early Christians prayed with Jesus to the father. Did Christ pray to himself, how can you do the will of the father if you are the father . You my friend are being misled. And I say that in the name of the only begotten Jesus.
Trinitarians don't believe the father is the Son. I don't think you understand what Christians believe about the Trinity, or have rejected it.@@christianerwin3964. Questions for you: How many Gods are there according to Isaiah 44:6 & Isaiah 43:10? Is the Book of Abraham what Joseph translated correctly, or what the Rosetta Stone revealed to be Egyptian burial instructions? Colossians 1:16-17 Demonstrate EVERYTHING was made through Jesus. Which means Satan was created by Jesus, and they weren't created at the same time. When it says begotten it means "pre-eminent"--- He is above all. He was uncreated. "Before Abraham was, I AM" Ephesians 2:8-9 fly right in contradiction to what you have professed. "For it is by GRACE you have been saved, not of works, lest anyone should boast, it is the gift of God" --- Grace by definition is a gift. Trusting in Jesus is the opposite of doing works. You seek to justify yourself by works, but that cannot save you. I am not saying that saving faith doesn't come with good works... but Ephesians 2:10 tells us that: For we are Christ's workmanship, created FOR GOOD works... those who are saved are created for good works but we are not justified by works. Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness. An honest reading of Galatians Chapter 3 will differentiate between what you believe and the teachings of the Apostles. There is no line of evidence that validates Joseph Smith as a Prophet. Only evidence to the contrary. Even dying while armed is an obvious evidence of his lack of Godliness. From Birth to Death it is clear that Joseph was a false prophet. NOW... you can actually investigate these things with an open mind, or you can remain entrenched in a cult... but I have given you the biblical truth. We agree the Bible is true. Read it like a child and ask "What was the original author saying?" and decide if what you say lines up with it. You have been deceived. A burning of the bosom is a subjective feeling you can get at a Taylor Swift concert... we rely on what is written, as Jesus did!
In this interview after telling his own anecdote on the futility of bashing they advise against combating with people who have alternative faith perspectives. Unless the group of pastor's you are conversing with are uniquely open minded and prepared to consider your point of view you will be pointlessly banging your head against a brick wall. They almost always have no intention of listening to what you have to say with any genuine intent to consider the validity of your perspective, their only purpose is to have you jump to a series of their pre conceived ideas as to what it is they claim you believe in. If after a few attempts you find yourself going around in circles save yourself the bother of trying to get through to them, their just not interested in what you have to say with any genuine intent to understand.
I would love to see mini series sets with the amazing guests y’all have on your channel. I have enough time for scripture study, but then I’m on the go from there so I seek out audiobooks and podcast, and may I say I’m so glad I found this one!
Nice video brethren! I was impressed by the Spirit to prepared an address on this very topic in which I did some weeks ago. That is the most plain and precious thing which was taken out of the record of the Jews which Nephi saw, which is the name Jesus Christ. With a close study of the Bible you can see that it's missing but evidence is present that it was there. If salvation is only in and through Jesus Christ that means they new his name since the days of Adam. If salvation is in the name of Jesus Christ they knew it. In my personal studies I've found evidence in the Bible that they new. Peter even testified that, Acts 4:12 "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" Acts 10:38-43 [ 38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. 39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:... 43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.] And Heb 4:2 testifies that the same gospel was preached to ancient Israel "For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them:" These scriptures testify that they new of the name Jesus Christ. For God is the same yesterday, today and forever and there is only one way back to the Father and one name whereby salvation comes unto all from the beginning of the world unto the end and that name is Jesus Christ. I thank God for the Book of Mormon which also testifies of these precious truths and of Jesus Christ. Thanks Stick of Joseph for another nice video. 🙏🏽
I love this video SO much! It has taken me 5 days to finish this video because I've paused it so many times to look things up in the scriptures. That's not something I've done before. Thank you for talking about the Tree of Life. That has changed me and the Spirit has been teaching me things I've never thought of before. Thank you. I'll be subscribing to Mike's channel and can't wait to have another place to dive deeply into! Thanks, guys.
Hey fellas 👋 I'm an Orthodox Christian, and I love Mormons 🤗 A lot of what Mike is talking about comes from Margaret Barker, whom he mentioned. Anyway, if I remember correctly, she was quoted by Pope Benedict XVI, Rowan Williams (Anglican), and EP Bartholomew (Orthodox) - quoted by all three of these church leaders, _all in the same calendar year._ That my friends, is what we call a hat trick. Anyway, there's a good chance her reconstructions of the patriarchal Hebrew religion will become the scholarly consensus before too long, which means Orthodoxy and the LDS could potentially both see a big swell of interest 🙏
Zarahemla was in Colombia, the Atrato river valley. It was perhaps the most strategically significant Nephite country because it served as the defensive state against the hostile nations of the Lamanites. It literally kept them bottled in. When the Lamanites began to prevail against the Nephites and drove them farther north, eventually the Nephites had to face the music and retreat. They loaded up ships and sailed across the gulf of Mexico, up the Mississippi, Ohio, and Allegheny Rivers and as much as they could via the Genesee river to try to get to Lake Ontario and the Saint Lawrence River. The place of refuge. A journey that probably took 4-6 months. The Lamanites caught up to them in Cumorah, and the Nephites fought their last battle in the war of extermination. There is no need to be confined by the "limited model". Ancient egyptians had a trade network as equally vast a thousand years before the events Mormon recorded. All ancient civilizations were River Valley civilizations. They were mariners. The Nephite countries occupied North America. A portion of the idolotrous and wretched Nephites made a successful escape down the Saint Lawrence river, following existing trading routes, and made it to the area we know as Scandinavia. They became the ancestors of many Northern European nations. Leaf Ericson was just trying to rediscover the mother-land. Joseph Smith is a direct decendent of Mormon and Nephi. Moroni was a resurrected, patriarchal ancestor of Joseph Smith who delivered a record of His very own ancient Ancestors.
Great point about the confounding of the languages! Woman, marriage, gender, truth. All these words have different meanings than they did 20 years ago.
This was so good! I listened to this 3 times to make sure I could follow the whole thing and it’s just so amazing! I feel like Jack, being able to see things that bring the issues of the period of time Lehi left Jerusalem makes so much sense!. Continue conversations like this please! It doesn’t change my testimony of the Book of Mormon but it strengthens it ❤
Thank you can we have more these sessions - this is my second time listening. I want on whole thing on the Tree as I want to see her everywhere. I loved this so much. Listening from Qld Australia.
Right! The word Cumorah is not intended to only describes a place, it describes a function: a place of sacred storage. Like the vault in up the canyon holding the Church records; that mountain is Cumorah.
Great video, fellas. As a Catholic, my ears perked up when you mentioned Mary. Catholic doctrine on Mary is based on both the Scriptures and tradition. The Hebrew kings of the Old Testament had a queen and, in accordance with Hebrew tradition, the queen was his mother and not his wife. This practice (and her position) were called "gebyra". The queen mother had wisdom and experience to help advise the king on running his kingdom. People took their most serious concerns and requests to the queen in the hopes she would speak to the king on their behalf. When Jesus is called "king of kings and Lord of Lords" in the Bible, the writers would have known that calling him king means that Mary is the Queen. The Roman Catholic Church has been studying the topics in your video for many centuries. I encourage you to visit the Vatican website. There are thousands of documents there that you can access and study.
So interesting - I wish we could just watch these episodes for Elders Quorum lessons. Thanks Mike Day for your amazing research and sharing your knowledge, and thanks Paul bros for sharing this!!
Just finally caught up and saw this video. That, was, awesome! I love deep, diving and getting into all these beautiful, symbolic meanings of things, because there is so much of it. If you get into the meanings and symbolism of things in the culture of the native Americans there’s a lot of beautiful deep symbolism as well. Layers upon layers.I hope you guys have him on again
You can't just make stuff up though. "A tree bears fruit so it must be about a mothere..." This is a totally unjustified conclusion. I was forced to listen to some "christians" doing a zoom seminar on transgender kids. She said that Adam was created non-binary because Eve had to be taken out of Adam. Everyone there thought it was beautiful but all it was was a perversion of scripture.
Yo it's Male version of Margaret Barker for Mormons!!!! You definitely need to do more episodes talking about the different documentary theories about the redacter and the Assyria vassal treaties! Effing love this kind of stuff. I wish we taught this in Sunday school. GIVE ME THE BORING STUFF BRO
Had to be the greatest collab of all time!!! I love Mike and listen to his podcast weekly! I’m going to have to register to this again tomorrow there’s soo much substance to digest!!!
I love what Dr. Barker (Methodist scholar in England) had to say about Lehi and Nephi's vision. "Imagine my surprise when I read the account of Lehi's vision of the tree whose white fruit made one happy. This revelation to Joseph Smith was the ancient wisdom symbolism, intact, and almost certainly as it was known in 600 BCE." -Dr. Margaret Barker.
This is the kind of stuff I love! Hoping and waiting with great anticipation for the Church's official instructional materials to catch up with all this. Remember: the English word "Lord" comes from "hlaf-weard" meaning the keeper of the bread.
Hey guys, I know this is an old video. Hope you get this comment. Just wondering if you’re related to Nicholas Paul who was a Englishman, who came out of South Africa after he was converted to the church? He went to Central Utah and lived for the remainder of his life.
I have to take issue with Deuteronomy 4:12 being used as a way of citing a contradiction when it comes to Moses actually seeing God. Those verses have nothing to do with Moses seeing God at the burning bush. They're actually pointing out that the children of Israel did not see God at the time that Moses received the commandments. The children of Israel chose not to take that step and therefore could only hear His voice. If you read those verses carefully, it is not referring to Moses. Read on when Moses takes over in verse 15 and reminds them of this very fact. There's no contradiction here.
You two are just the cutest! I love this podcast so much! I learn so much. Thank you for all your hard work in putting this together for all of us to benefit from.
I am pro-Tower of Babel in the Bible is the same one in the Book of Mormon because of valley of Nimrod. Ether 1:3&5 " And as I suppose that the first part of this record, which speaks concerning the creation of the world, and also of Adam, and an account from that time even to the great tower, and whatsoever things transpired among the children of men until that time, is had among the Jews --" "But behold, I give not the full account, but a part of the account I give, from the tower down until they were destroyed." Basically saying this is the Tower story from the Bible.
This reminds me of a thought I had while in Sacramento meeting... Growing up you always hear about the fountain of youth and I had the thought during the dark ages and apostasy, the fountain of youth came from the fountain of truth. It's only a couple letters off and people are searching for the fountain of youth when they should be searching for the fountain truth which is Jesus Christ which he said drink from me and you'll never thirsty again. IMO
I'm 74. This kind of information wants me to live to be 200--so much to understand and learn and reach out to my Savior, and do temple work!!! I want to share it with my adult kids, but they won't understand unless they hear these teachings for themselves. My God bless these scrlptorians and their families, especially those in the military!
Great stuff, especially in terms of the “anachronisms” in The Book of Mormon. It really opens my eyes and gives me a better appreciation for this great book.
Their take on Hebrew is a very modern take. The poetry of Hebrew writing is that it was written by people who believe that breath is life. Consonants are not breath sounds, they are hard sounds. In writing, the text is effectively dead because it has no vowels, no breath, no life. It is only in speaking that the words are brought to life by adding the vowels. It is a language that is meant to be recited. In the same way God breathed life into Adam, we breathe life into his holy words when we recite them. For ancient people, the practicality of language was not their primary concern. Utilitarianism is a more modern concern.
Great interview. Love your comment Hayden "....sufficiently high." You are correct. There is literal and type. Christ is a type in the wilderness with Moses and there was a literal Christ, not just a type.
I agree, or at least, I think these things were tactfully not included in the relevant texts. It might have been dangerous to publicize widely His relations. After all, His brother James was stoned to death like the other Apostles and Mary His mother goes into obscurity. Being the familial relations of the founder of this new faith may have been very dangerous. The post-resurrection encounter with Mary Magdalene is extremely evocative, and I wonder if it was included for those "in-the-know" to get the hint.
@@TheYgdsI’ve never thought from the perspective that it was edited out “tactfully” so as to protect the rest of the family before. Great insight! And I too see the Mary Magdalene encounter is exactly what you say it was; for those “in the know”.
Cleon Skousen alluded to Jesus being edited out of the OT in his book "Days of the Living Christ Vol 1" pages 86 - end of chapter, first published 1992. My edition is 2003.
33:23 Alma is also in the middle of the Book of Mormon!🤯 Moroni is a freaking literary genius!! God knew what he was doing when he picked him and his father to abridge the Book of Mormon!🤯
More animations to accompany what you're sharing please! Maps showing the different groups and arrows etc, as well as trees in the holy of holies etc. I think that that can only help! Thanks for your hard work and thanks to each person helping you all behind the scenes!
The Jots and tittles in the Hebrew language is more than just vowels. It’s like a Tree, you have the main trunk of the message, and then you have all the branches which imply and you get so much more information from it. It’s concentrated if you will.
the term 'marriage' came about when the pacific broke through the isthmus between Antarctica and South America. Mar=sea Makes me think that the days of the week should be Dei as in deity. That also the 'days' of the week are a progression as well, culminating in Sun-Dei.
Oh, please! I'm in!!!😂❤. This refrains a ton of things learned and taught by prog"s at university. But as the primary song (I've been thinking of this week, wouldn't you know? (and that's a pun too) says : "there's a beautiful stairway that we must climb leading upward to lasting joy..... the heavenly concourses. The temple ascent.... I'm not going to get any sleep tonight.....oh well, time we'll spent😅. And I'm furthering my education in NE archaeology to boot. My idea of heaven...😂
MIKE! WRITE A BOOK DUDE!PLEASE. You're able to put all of this information into easily digestible words, how am I supposed to teach those around me when my words come out big dumb dumb? Gimme a book bro. 😊
David Bokovoy’s book Authoring the Old Testament is a fantastic book that explains and proves the documentary hypothesis. It also helps navigate the implications of that with restored scriptures. It really is clear and obvious that the Pentateuch was not written by Moses and that the five Books of Moses is just a cultural tradition that attributes ancient prophets to these kind of sacred writings that are actually not contemporary with the events written. LDS folks need to be cognizant of these facts to understand what Joseph Smith’s MO was. Perhaps this would help members that lose their faith because of their literalist beliefs and provide a new perspective that actually is tenable. Great guest and topic. I learned so much and the content has been beneficial for a lesson I’m preparing on the topic of happiness. Thanks!!
Two thoughts: 1)Lehi addresses the confounding of language problem in 2 Nephi 2 when he talked about “opposition in all things”. He was talking about maintaining clear boundaries and categories of language and thought. When you blur the lines of categories and language, everything becomes a “compound in one”. 2) I think the story of Noah is a type of the vision that Enoch has in the book of Moses.
.....Hugh Nibley's work was tremendous back in the day.........and still is relevant.........when I read the 14 books of the Meso- American prophets and scribes after being familiar with his ideals, it become crystal clear to me that the works are authentic history, regardless of one's believe system.....gh
Abraham was commanded to leave the land of his inheritance to go to the Promised Land that God had prepared for him. Abraham’s descendants lived there in peace until, Joseph (the birthright holder) was sold into slavery by his brothers. The Promised Land eventually became barren and it was no longer able to support the family. Meanwhile, God favored and preserved Joseph in Egypt. Joseph eventually became the means whereby the whole House of Israel was saved during the famine. The House of Israel unites and expands in Egypt and then they become the slaves to Egypt. Why didn’t they go back to the Promised Land before that? Was it still barren? No By that time, the Canaanites were occupying the Promised Land, it was no longer barren but was “flowing with milk and honey.” Why didn’t Israel take back their rightful inheritance from the Canaanites? They were not allowed to take it back because the Canaanites had to become “fully ripe in inquiry” before they could be evicted (or scattered from the land). So the Israelites had to endure that 400 years of slavery until the Canaanites were “fully ripened in inquiry” before God disposed of them off Abraham’s inheritance. Sounds like the Canaanites were doing somethings right before that 400 year mark had ended.
This reminds me of Tongan poems and old songs. It’s has layers of meanings especially love poems and love songs. It is beautifully written and its meanings are hidden that the loved one is the only one that understands it. Once you understand the meaning of the song beyond the lyrics, can one understand what the author is going through. The author usually hides the his love for the girl from her parents or even his own parents who disapproves of her or him from her parents.
On my mission in New Zealand, I had a Bishop broke it down to me that the Garden of Eden is the Temple. I fully didn’t understand what he meant until I saw the podcast with Mike Day and David
I discovered that Saint Catherine's book, "The Dialog," is literally a commentary on Lehi's dream. I was shocked! She's communicating with God the Father in it, and he tells her that he's the man standing under the tree of life beckoning his children to come. The fruit of the tree is breast milk in her vision. I just couldn't believe it at first. There's so many aspects of what she wrote that fits this hypothesis really well.
Wait wait, hold up! Y’all are blowing my mind right now! 🤯 can we revisit this whole “tree of life and heavenly mother” symbolism in the BOM for a minute?! I feel like I need to unpack this MORE! 😍
Can you guys touch on the subject of baptisms before Christ sometime? I thought baptism came in Jesus’ time but read in Mosiah last week that Alma baptized the people, which was before Jesus. Was baptism deleted from the Old Testament as well?
One minor mistake that most are ignorant of and that is the mistake thinking that Hebrew has no vowels. Hebrew has always had vowel markers. There are ancient Hebrew texts of the Bible that pre date most with vowel markers. Hebrew doesn't have vowels in their alphabet but it has always had vowel markers. The vowel markers are not always written because the reader already knows the sound and pronunciation. I speak and study Chinese and it's the same, no vowels and no alphabet but there is a system of pronunciation and how to find the pronunciation of a character you might not know.
If the Brass Plates were the "permanent" record of Scripture or writings of Moses, from which the scrolls for the synagogues would be copied, and Lehi took those to the New World, then it would have been so much easier for these other groups to make redactions and changes.
@@susannaholdfield7499 they likely were for their tribe or descendants of Joseph. But they would have made copies onto scrolls for regular use (See Deu 17:18). The scrolls would be much easier to handle etc, and multiple copies could be made. Paper, papyrus, or even animal skins would not last as long as brass. Even when Moses wrote the law down it was on tables of stone because of it's long lasting permanence (the Hebrew word translated table is "luach" which means something which glistens or is polished, and could refer to polished stone, metal, or wood). Some scholars think the commandments were on stone, and the rest of the law was on metal plates bound like a book.
Thanks for this. Mentions of Jesus by name in the BoM have always been troubling for me. P.S., you guys should publish a podcast feed! I'm on the road a lot and I would love to be able to download your stuff and listen to it.
They way he talks about the love between mother and child is so true. I didn’t understand Heavenly Father’s love for me until I became a mom.
I think that it is a key*to understanding our creator that we must first become parents ourselves. Until we do, our knowledge cannot be complete about the love of a parent for their child and their spouse. Now I’m waiting for my kids to get older and have their own children so I can become a grandparent and the circle will almost be complete.
I can see the garden of Eden for sure being a temple. And Jesus is the tree of life. The ending in revelation is of course the celestial degree of glory and of course it is book ends. We see the tree of life for sure Jesus Christ. The living water . What do you want? Try what is wanted ? What is wanted ? Do you know?to converse with the Lord through the veil. Meaning through Jesus you come to the father . No man comes to the Father except through Jesus Christ. What is the love of God? It is Jesus Christ. For God so loved the world that he gave his only gotten Son. That who so ever believeth shall not perish but have ever lasting life. . All things point to Jesus Christ . Don’t get off the mark guys.
We love our families and our children. A mothers love is of course more christ like then anything . When showing what the tree of life means of course they will show Mary holding Jesus. The baby Jesus Mary is holding in her arms is the tree of life. Mary is not the tree of life fellas . If that isn’t clear enough for you then Nephi is told to look . What does he see? If this isn’t easy enough for you ? Nephi sees Jesus his mission his life his trial his healing the sick and blind and healing leopards and all manner of disease and sickness. The last supper . Jesus dying on the cross . Jesus being resurrected . How more plain and simple can it get guys who the tree of life is. The bread of life living water . Mary is not the tree of life . Mary is a mortal who needs her Lord and savior just like we all
Do. Jesus gives us life . Don’t make something so simple complicated. Nephi sees the New Testament teachings. Jesus birth his whole life his ministry and His death and resurrection . This isn’t hard to understand at all.
Very true. Having kids helps you understand so much about the gospel. The love of God being at the top of that list.
@@lindamartinez7006 the Book of Mormon clearly states that Jesus is the FRUIT of the tree of life.
I was so hungry for this conversation and I didn't realize it until I heard it. Thank you for all the wonderful insights and new ways of understanding the scriptures! 💚
If anyone would like to worship the True Lord God, please head over to Cornerstone Chapel Online, Leesburg Virgina. There are online services Sundays at 830, 10 and 1130 EST
I listened to Hugh Nibbley's and Cleon Skousens talks and they have touched on these topics back in the day. We need more academic work in this area.
Margaret Barker has written something like 18 books now..? And many many essays and lectures on what the “older” testament may have been. She is a lay Methodist preacher and biblical scholar from the UK who uses all available ancient texts (nag hammadi library, gnostic, Dead Sea scrolls, Septuagint, masoretic text, pseudoepigraphica, apocrypha/deutero canon, etc etc etc) to tease it out. She’s given lectures at BYU, I’ve heard Mike reference her work on his scripture podcast, and she’s given several lectures to LDS audiences at like FAIR and Interpreter Foundation.
I don’t agree with all of her conclusions, but I’ve also only read half of The Great Angel (where she makes the case that Yahweh/Jehovah of the Old Testament IS Jesus, like LDS believe), and a few of her essays and lectures, but I find her research to be fascinating.
There’s a video series of lectures from like ten years ago put out on the Academy for Temple Studies channel that deals with “the lady in the temple”/Heavenly Mother that is really interesting (she is one of the speakers, along with LDS scholars and non-LDS academics of varying sorts).
It would be great if there were more LDS people doing research like hers, but it is always so nice when non-LDS academics do research that serves to bolster LDS doctrine and beliefs!
@@gingersnaps215I listened to her and her finding Heavenly Mother . Even though we agree we have a heavenly mother I found she did Botha e the Holy Ghost with her at all. Sorry
Both high Nibley and Cleon Skousen are not apostles
The most ridiculous thing Nephi boo the spacious building as the fake temple . Sounds like you guys are starting your own church .
I watched one with David Butler that I really liked . But then he took out of context about the salt that looses its savor is good for nothing and to be trampled on . He then used as a n example how Coriantian teaches there is no Christ and is killed trampled on saying that is a penalty in the temple . No it is not . There is no such thing as that taught in the temple and you know it . This is why some people think it is a cult because of false teachings like this . They think a pact is madero get killed or kill yourself or a pact made to lil for revenge . First of all we never killed to get revenge or made a pact to do so. Only self defense and we were the ones getting killed . Next you know that there are many many people who have left the church wrote books told whatever they thought they knew which is nothing go on Mormon stories . Do or try to do much harm to the church . Could David Butler please tell us who is going to kill them or who is trying to kill them or who is so scared or hiding out ?? Or who is getting trampled under feet ??? Please do tell us . Who has that ever happened to ever ? Oh yes God is Going to kill them ?? Kill them when they die ?? How laughable. Stop with these lies David Butler . The only thong they loose has nothing to do with this earth at all. What they lose is which includes whicheternal life . Not going to celestial kingdom
I have been listening to One for Israel pod casts for the last couple of years. They are Messianic Jews, they have opened my eyes to Jewish understanding of the Old Testament, they do a beautiful job. One of they did a multi lecture/ discussion on the history of the Pharisee’s and what they were doing with the law of Moses and the additions made by them. I highly recommend those discussions as well.
Do you remember what is the name of that discussion?
I have been listening to Amir and One for Israel for almost 4 years. He is an evangelical and after many years started really bashing the “Mormon” Church. Then some of the other evangelical ministers started doing the same thing. They are also telling everyone that they won’t live through the tribulation which is NOT what Jesus says. They also do not believe in baptism. I feel that they are teaching a lot of truth and the. Throw in some untruths that are actually going to cause huge problems for his thousands of followers that aren’t prepared physically or spiritually. He has helped me to understand the Bible better through understanding what it means in Hebrew.
Svelte
They are awesome!
I've been listening to them since 2020.. they are so amazing. Jews are coming back
I LOVE MIKE DAY! He has had the biggest impact on my knowledge and testimony out of any church mentor. It’s like he speaks my language. He got me through 3.5 years of gospel doctrine teaching! And might I add we do not deserve his show notes for free😂He has no idea who I am but I consider him a good friend. (haven’t even started this episode yet but I know it will be incredible…🤞🏼hoping Josiah’s reforms get spoken about😃)
Also…this is not Greta but Greta’s mom on her account! Haha!
@GretaGirl
“Also…this is not Greta! This is Greta's mom on her account! Haha!”
😆😅😂🤣😁
Nailed it!
@@HeathStowell😂
“We just spent… an hour and a half… talking about stuff that really matters.”
Exactly! This is a perfect way to explain this channel. The seekers find, and you have found gold, I love that you are sharing it with us.
Thank you!
If anyone would like to worship the True Lord God, please head over to Cornerstone Chapel Online, Leesburg Virgina. There are online services Sundays at 830, 10 and 1130 EST
"Similar beliefs in other religions in 600 BC". Sure, check out Zorarastrianism of Persia at this time period. Ahura-mazda great spirit. If you think that there was one original truth, then multiple apostatises, we can find elements of truth in all religions. Then in this restoration the true elements are brought together. We are not talking about the restoration of pure Christianity and its apostasy, this is about the restoration of the proto-religion, the beginning of all things. How crazy to think that I have stumbled onto the truth. But yes, this is it. I try and circle out from our church and look at other religions and ask myself again, is this it? I am constantly reconverted to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It provides salvation of all people. No other religion does this. Try and unpack just the name of the church. That is a fun exercise. Amazing.
Yes! The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints means there was once a Church of Jesus Christ of Former-day Saints. It’s the name of a church that belongs to an organized, multi-millenial God-the one and only Jesus Christ.
Mike day came to our stake for the tabernacle. I absolutly loved his talk and now I listen to his podcast for come follow me and its amazing!
Honestly, these are my favorite of your episodes with Mike Day. Please make this a regular thing!
RLDS here! Love this channel and Mike Day is one of my favorites. So much knowledge! Just WOW!!
Asking out of curiosity, What significance is this channel and Mike Day of to you as an RLDS (and correct me if I’m wrong) don’t believe in the historical authenticity of the Book of Mormon and don’t believe in the restoration of the temple?
@@GrouperNJ That means we have to be unified. How will that work with different sects?
@@GrouperNJ Do we both have to be willing to do those things or just me? 🤨
I agree. There is too much that can divide us. Thanks for being positive! I am amazed as well.
I recently started watching some of your videos here at The Stick of Joseph. I've been listening to Mike Day and Bryce Dunford for some time now on their Talking Scripture podcasts. When I stumbled upon the Talking Scripture podcast 73 with Dave Butler I fell in love with Dave's 2 books, and I am looking forward to the next book soon!
I also wanted to give a BIG THANK YOU to Mike Day. I watched this video Jesus being edited from the Old Testament yesterday(May 15, 2024). I have heard the pun on the name of Nephi meaning "Good" before, but the way that it connected with some things that I have been studying about the 3 Nephites in 3rd Nephi 28 for the last 20+ years, some things I was pondering last night about those ideas, and how it all connected..............IT JUST TOTALLY BLEW MY MIND!💥 The Spirit just flooded over me in such a profound way. A dozen or more connections instantly came together! I don't know that I could explain it. One of the recent videos I watched from Mike, he explained an experience he had in trying to verbalize something the Spirit taught him, and people get a glazed look in their eyes. He couldn't explain it, but he knew that it was important! Its like that! I'm trying to write it all out the next day, on how it all came together in my head, but I don't know where to start! Believe it or not, but I think First Nephi 1:1 also ties in with 3 Nephi 28 on translated beings like Enoch, John the Beloved, and the 3 Nephites. Then we have Alma departing in Alma 45, and how they believe he was "...buried by the hand of the Lord, even as Moses(Alma 45:19)." Or Nephi the son of Helaman departs in 3 Nephi 1. Footnotes point to the possibility that he was translated like Alma. I believe there is much more, but I can't put it into words yet.
Again, please pass on my sincerest thanks to Mike Day! YA'LL SO TOTALLY ROCK!
I think you should have more than just a 3rd date, it's time to put a ring on it. This level of content is heavenly
Seriously!
As I have read the BofM the last few years I have been amazed to see the Temple ceremony and symbols, and meaning ect, unfold in layer's especially in the first few chapters. I am sure there is SO much more to see. Beautiful!!
Thank you for being willing to have these conversations. I am learning so much. Not just by what you're saying but by the Spirit.
Mike Day blows my mind! How could you even question the gospel after listening to him? Talking scripture with Mike and Bryce has been amazing to me! I wish I knew Hebrew and Greek! Is it too late for me?🤣 Amazing! I’ve listened to this about 7 times now! No joke! We need Mike Day!
Se Joseph Smith criou o livro de Mórmon, no mínimo deveria ser reconhecido como o pai da literatura, é uma obra muito complexa para ser criado em tão pouco tempo e ainda morrer por isso, Tolkien levou uma vida para fazer as histórias do Senhor dos Anéis tendo um sofisticado conhecimento universitário.
A única maneira que o mundo reconhecerá ao obra do livro de mórmon é quando eles aceitam mesmos. Por que eles aceitarão algo que não concorda com os ideologizas deles mesmos? Se for tão lógico, ninguém poderão contestar as ideas e “problemas” que existem. É bem similar ao bible bashing. Só o espírito pode converter uma pessoa e deixa eles abertos ao verdade.
Im a Traditionalist/Originalst Christian amd I enjoy seeing you guys searching for Truth. I hope youre also open to believing how the Bible is beyond real. May God bless you guys. Not everyone who disagrees with you hates you!! ❤
I hope our assertion the Bible isn't inerrant doesn't lead you to believe we don't believe the Bible. We believe the Bible. We study from the KJV in English in particular. We hold it up alongside the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon testifies of the Bible.
But we also believe church leaders, Latter-day Prophets, etc. are also fallible.
If we believe everything from holy scripture to the words of holy prophets are neither inerrant nor infallible, are we just faithless wanderers? No. We believe in the gift and power of the Holy Ghost to teach us truth, to help us discern between truth and error. What this challenge does is it puts the onus back on us as individual disciples to become familiar with the word of God in all its complexities and to learn the voice of God for ourselves. We will all make mistakes along the way, but I have had enough experiences to know God is real, Jesus Christ is Savior, and that the Book of Mormon and Bible are true in part because they testify of Them. I know this because of the power of the Holy Ghost which teaches us all things (John 14:26).
I appreciate and admire what Christian and biblical scholars, philosophers, and other disciples have done. I devour books from other Christian authors because they can provide perspectives outside the LDS framework that helps me better understand God. God is clearly guiding people of all faiths. I can read and study from them and it only strengthens my confidence in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and in the Book of Mormon because my faith in those are founded in faith in Jesus Christ.
When Jesus appears in the Book of Mormon, the first thing he does is testify of His divine role, then He dispels some of the confusion that existed at the time. He makes plain what His doctrine is, again affirming it is centered around His divine role, and that through believing in Him and is baptized shall be saved and inherit the Kingdom of God. He comments that "the gates of hell shall not prevail" against those who build upon this doctrine (3 Nephi 11:39) but not to proclaim anything more or less than that as His doctrine. This means, yes, there can be more to God's word than the doctrine of Christ. That is the foundation. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints claim is that we have the simple doctrine of Christ, the authority to baptize in His name, and we've been given more on top of that foundation and that is our offer to the world.
I learned a lot watching this! However the most important thing that I learn is to read the scriptures and do that every day!
Hey! Utah-born and Utah-raised Baptist pastor here. I have really enjoyed watching your channel. Typically I'm content just to sit and learn. But Mike's diving into an area here that I actually have some training and experience in, so I feel OK weighing in a bit.
The primary weakness of Wellhausen's Documentary Hypothesis is that it is merely a hypothesis. There exists no consensus on dating the proposed contributors. Since the 1960s, scholars have challenged every element from dating to classification, to what can be accepted as evidence for any of those proposed redactors. Rolf Rendtorff, in his 1977 work on "The Problem of the Pentateuch" argued that evaluating the Penteteuch in terms of JEDP "sources" was academically unhelpful. Instead, he proposed six units of development, primeval history, patriarchal history, the Exodus, Sinai, the wilderness wanderings, and the settlement. Rendtorff recognized what many scholars since the 1960s do, that Wellhausen's theory has significant weaknesses. As a secularist himself, he proposed another theory on how Genesis came to be.
Against Wellhausen and Rendtorff, I would say that there is nothing in the Pentateuch that would influence me away from holding to Mosaic authorship. J. H. Tigay argues that since we can see a development and redaction history in documents making up the Samaritan Pentateuch and the Epic of Gilgamesh, the Documentary Hypothesis carries weight. I would argue that with the SP, we actually have objective evidence that show stages of development. IOW, we have the proto-Samaritan Exodus from Qumran and the SP. But with the Pentateuch, we don't have anything but the completed work. So arguing for anything other than a cohesive whole is just a guess. With Gilgamesh, we can empirically verify the development of the multiedited text. We can't do that with Genesis, because all we have is the completed Genesis.
I'm already going way deeper than a UA-cam post typically does. But I'll just finish by saying that the apparent reason that there is so little consensus on JEDP and Wellhausen is that it's entirely a guess. It's an educated and complex guess with a lot of moving parts. But it's still just a guess.
As a Christian who holds to Biblical authority, I have no problem accepting the existence of the supernatural. In fact, my belief in the supernatural is baked into my view on Scripture itself. There is no empirical data to work from for scholars attempting to argue against the Divine authorship of the Pentateuch through the pen of Moses. What's more, Jesus, himself, says that Moses wrote the Pentateuch in Luke 24:44, John 5:46, John 7:19, and elsewhere. Put simply, when it's the guess of scholars vs. the plain words of my savior, I'll go with Jesus.
Caleb, thanks for listening to the “Stick of Joseph.” I (Mike Day) promised myself that I wouldn’t jump in the comments for several reasons. One is that so many are contending things I did not say, and it can be a bit frustrating. I also promised myself that by creating the document that addresses my assertions that people could simply go and check them out (see the link in the description above). That being said, here I go jumping into the comments.
Some scholars, including Richard Elliott Friedman, contend that the Documentary Hypothesis (or a modification of this model) is still the most compelling explanation for the formation of the first five books of the Bible, despite recent attacks from what he calls “traditional and radical scholars.” (Friedman, The Bible with Sources Revealed, p. 7). He claims that the hypothesis is supported by a convergence of evidence from multiple sources, including linguistic analysis, literary style, and historical context. I would say that a close analysis of his evidence is compelling.
Friedman (and many others) points to the existence of doublets, or repeated stories and laws, as one of the strongest pieces of evidence for the Documentary Hypothesis. I have added to his list as I have found additional doublets, and you can see them on my website at BrotherDay.org under the heading “Stories Told Twice in the Bible.” Friedman identifies several, and with my additions, as of today, I have located 35 doublets in the Torah, some of which are identical and others that differ in detail. This suggests that multiple authors were involved in the composition of the text, and that these authors may have had different agendas or perspectives. When you do a deep dive on what they are saying, it becomes clear that these authors had very different political views, and some would argue even different theological ones.
Another key piece of evidence is the consistent relationship between the Priestly source (P) and the earlier sources of the Torah. Friedman asserts that P was composed later than the Yahwist (J) and Elohist (E) sources, and that it was written by someone who was familiar with J and E in their combined form. This indicates that P was composed as an alternative to the JE version of Israel's story, and that it was intended to promote the interests of the Aaronid priesthood. P was reacting to the earlier material. This is happening all over the place. I wrote a 60+ page paper on this topic of the DH and how it is viewed by past and present scholars if you would like to see the information I can provide. I am citing around 80 scholars on this topic, so I cast my net fairly wide. Just go to “Talking Scripture” and shoot me an email by going to the “About” section, scrolling to the bottom, and posting a comment. (For some reason, UA-cam does not want me to share links in this comment!)
We can also discuss how the Documentary Hypothesis is supported by linguistic and stylistic analysis, which reveals distinct differences between the various sources of the Torah. Many assert that these differences cannot be explained by the traditional view that Moses wrote the entire Torah, and that they are best explained by the hypothesis that multiple authors were involved in its composition. Just my brief discussion with the Paul brothers lays out the beginning of the arguments. There is a lot of material here to work with and Jackson and Hayden and I could dig into the evidence for over 40 hours of video and bore their audience into oblivion. This is why I told them I’d write my short paper and the folks that want more can read what I have provided. The evidence of multiple authorship is extensive. That being said, I understand the arguments of David Carr in “Reading The Fractures of Genesis,” when he goes into detail that Wellhausen is incorrect in many areas. But Carr will even acknowledge what he calls “P” and “Non-P” material.
I will say Friedman’s short analysis of what scholars are continuing to not engage with regards to the argument is persuasive. To read his arguments regarding how scholars generally are not engaging the evidence, go to “What is the Documentary Hypothesis? A Short Introduction” on my site “Talking Scripture” and scroll to the bottom where it says “Richard Friedman’s Defense of the Documentary Hypothesis.” I keep trying to comment on UA-cam and when I post the links to these articles, my posts are deleted automatically. Apparently UA-cam thinks I am in violation for posting these links.
His contention that the evidence for the Documentary Hypothesis is profound and compelling, and that it continues to be the central model in which most scholars work. He suggests that recent attacks on the hypothesis are based on flawed arguments and a lack of engagement with the classic and current evidence that supports it. At the end of the day, you the reader get to decide what you think.
I love the end of his argument (Sources, p. 31), when he says, “The combined weight of the evidence that one will observe there, together with the evidence that is collected here in this section, should make it clear why this explanation of the biblical origins has been so compelling for more than a century. And, whether one agrees with this explanation, questions it, or challenges it, one will have in front of him or her the evidence to address. It is amazing that at this point, when such a mass of evidence is available, some writers still discuss this at so low a level as, for example, arguing about whether "different names of God" constitutes proof or not, or whether doublets prove multiple authorship, or whether a beautiful literary structure (for example, a chiasm) is evidence for a single author. Or some just say that "the hypothesis was disproved long ago" or "nobody accepts it anymore." Here, rather, is the evidence, for anyone to see, evaluate, acknowledge, or refute.”
I am in the space of not knowing, but I also like looking at stuff and seeing clues that show me how to reframe my ideas and beliefs. And, like the Paul brothers, I am always curious and hungry.
Social media comment threads aren't always the most helpful (or the best place for significant discussion), so I'll save my meatiest comments for an email with you. But for the sake of anyone reading later, I'll respond here publicly.
@@talkingscripture Hey Mike! Thanks for taking the time to write such a significant response. I actually found Talking Scripture through a friend of mine who's a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints while we were discussing Hebrews recently. I'll find your email on your channel, because this is a significant point of discussion. I'm not a PhD student or anything like you are, but I do hold a couple of masters degrees and I concentrated on Greek and Hebrew in grad school.
When it comes to DH sources, the ones I mentioned in my comment are a few of the big names. But as with all academia, sometimes the lesser-known voices are the most beneficial. I'm sure there is a great deal you can teach me on that front. But I do find Whybray's criticisms of the DH to be weighty. 1) variation in language, repetition, and (apparent) contradictions can be explained by deliberate use of those features for aesthetic and literary purposes. 2) by breaking up the narrative into source materials the DH tends to make those literary features irrelevant. 3) variations in style and language can be explained by differences in subject matter. And (in his words) 4) "there is inadequate evidence to support the presence throughout each of the documents of a single style, purpose and point of view or theology, and of an unbroken narrative thread. (Making of the Pentateuch, 130). Granted, most of my research was done using sources that were more than a decade old. You may be aware of information that provide meaty answers to these points.
My personal biggest objection to the DH models, as I alluded to earlier, is that they are all hypothetical. They begin by assuming Moses didn't write the Pentateuch, and then they hypothesize on who might have written it. No matter how complex the analysis is, DH models are still trying to build a system upon that core presupposition. My presupposition is that Moses did write it. And absent extant evidence to the contrary, I'm comfortable where I am.
@@calebschaaf1555 I’ve heard Mike talk a lot about the Documentary Hypothesis, and I’ve heard several other non-LDS channels talk about it (most notably Useful Charts’ Bible videos), but you’re the first I’ve heard argue for Mosaic authorship against the DH. If you live in Utah, do you think you could have a discussion on Mike’s podcast about it? I know I’m not the only one who would like to hear the various points presented from “opposing sides” (not in a contentious way, obviously). @talkingscriptue, what do you say?
@@psychlops924 I've reached out to Mike in an email. Before jumping into a public discussion, I'd like to talk one-on one for a bit. He's a bit further along with his academic credentials than I am. But our shared love of Tolkien, Star Wars, and the biblical languages could lay the groundwork for something down the road.
@@calebschaaf1555Thank you for commenting on the DH. As a non LDS Christian who also approaches the Bible as the word of God, I too reject the DH. Well, maybe not all together, but no matter how the books of the Bible came together, I'm 100% certain that God was guiding the process into the end result.
I've enjoyed many of the presentations from Chuck Missler. Here's one of his quotes..."In fact, as we begin to understand the Bible from an information science point of view, we discover the integrity of the total package manifests a strategy to avoid hostile jamming. It’s interesting to note that we can’t say, “Where’s the chapter in the Bible on baptism? Where’s the chapter on salvation?” There is no critical subject in the Bible that is found in only one passage. Every major issue is explained or portrayed repeatedly by a wide variety of authors in a multitude of passages."
If you search online for "hyperlink text Bible image" you will find a stunning image of this very thing. It shows how interwoven every chapter of the Bible is with all the other chapters. So, no matter how much editing and redacting might have gone into the books of the Bible, at the end of the day we have what God intended to be there.
The Welsh revival didn't come about by believers who were doubtful about the authenticity of the Bible. Desmond Doss didn't accomplish his super human feat of saving all of those lives while surviving hell on Earth with doubts about who the author of the Torah was. God will bless those with a childlike faith and will use them to confound the "wise" of this world. I believe/know Adam and Eve were created about six thousand years ago. I believe/know there was a worldwide flood. I know Jesus was crucified, buried and raised back to life. The world thinks I'm a fool, but the world gets more and more foolish everyday. Have a blessed day. I pray readers will be blessed by this post.
I’m listening to this and loving it. In terms of Mike mentioning that Lamen and Lemuel beat nephi with a rod, angel saying stop “it’s his rod”. I actually think that the rod is currently in the hands of Laben and the rod changes hands from Laben to Nephi when nephi takes the sword and the clothes. Very similar to when David takes Goliaths amor and sword. The mantle of kingship is changing hands. Thanks for doing this episode!! Brings up so many good memories from my own readings (many suggested by Mike and Bryce) David Butler wrote a great book that helps iron some of this stuff too. Cheers my new friends and carry on!!!
Interesting- thank you
Before anyone writes a book they are to take it ti the first presidenecy first for approval . That is the law laid out for writing books . Why do people not listen ?? Too scared your book will not be approved ? Why not do as you are asked ??
@@lindamartinez7006 I guess you better tell Deseret Books. I doubt 99% of those books were passed 'for approval'. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and at no point did he say this is the official position of the church. No approval is needed.
Loved the discussion. It made my day. It also came at a great time as I’ve recently finished Nibley’s Lehi in the Desert, which discusses in detail the Egyptian influence in Jerusalem before his departure. Anyway, his words there helped with some of these ideas, contextually speaking. Anyway, I am rambling about nothing. This was great.
I'm fascinated by Mike's scholarship and I can tell he is influenced by Margaret Barker's work, another scholar who fascinates me. My question is this, when I read Barker I come away feeling like King Josiah was a villain, but church manuals don't give me the same impression. He is given more credit. I'm inclined to agree with Day and Barker because of the life and story of Lehi. Is this even an issue for anyone else?
With this much work that he put into just this podcast. I think he could put out an online book! Great stuff.
I know, right? This all just spilled out of his brain haha
OMGEEEEE!!! Brother Day!!! You were my seminary teacher!!! Back in 1999!!!
I’ve finally listened to this all the way through while awake 😆 and it’s AWESOME! 🌟
I am so glad that this video came up for me. I have a group that gets together each week to discuss. Mormonism versus Christianity. Last Monday we went over the book of Mormon and whether it is valid in our day today. Relationship with Jesus Christ in our Father in heaven. Sometimes the spirit moves me and helped me communicate a very strong testimony of the validity of the book Mormon. Last week or on Monday it wasn't there. I offer to you both an invitation to come in be a part of the conversation over zoom this coming Monday on the validity of the book of Mormon. I have at least two to three pastors and an ex Mormon that is a part of the conversation. It would be great to have some help on my side or the side of the church and you guys would fit in without a doubt
The test of a prophet is whether they are consistent with the reveled word of God. Joseph Smith rejects saved by grace alone. He rejects Monotheism, He rejects the SHEMA, he rejects Jesus as the one true God (since there is but one).
The book of Abraham is enough to draw into enormous question the validity of him as a prophet.
I highly commend to you to read the New Testament without any preconceived notions and watch "apologia studios" videos on here when they visit with mormons. Isaiah tells us there is only one God... none before or after.
Because the teachings of the church contradict the old and New Testament, it is decidedly false.
@@Golfinthefamilylol you read the New testament with the preconceived notion that by grace alone we are saved. Is choosing to follow Christ not works in itself, what does it mean to follow Jesus Christ. Simply believing is not enough you must follow him. The Bible says so, to know him is to follow him and to keep his commandments. His grace is sufficient for those who follow him. You don't know him. The godhead is 1 god with three bodies. The early Christians prayed with Jesus to the father. Did Christ pray to himself, how can you do the will of the father if you are the father . You my friend are being misled. And I say that in the name of the only begotten Jesus.
Trinitarians don't believe the father is the Son. I don't think you understand what Christians believe about the Trinity, or have rejected it.@@christianerwin3964.
Questions for you:
How many Gods are there according to Isaiah 44:6 & Isaiah 43:10?
Is the Book of Abraham what Joseph translated correctly, or what the Rosetta Stone revealed to be Egyptian burial instructions?
Colossians 1:16-17 Demonstrate EVERYTHING was made through Jesus. Which means Satan was created by Jesus, and they weren't created at the same time.
When it says begotten it means "pre-eminent"--- He is above all. He was uncreated. "Before Abraham was, I AM"
Ephesians 2:8-9 fly right in contradiction to what you have professed. "For it is by GRACE you have been saved, not of works, lest anyone should boast, it is the gift of God"
--- Grace by definition is a gift. Trusting in Jesus is the opposite of doing works. You seek to justify yourself by works, but that cannot save you. I am not saying that saving faith doesn't come with good works... but Ephesians 2:10 tells us that: For we are Christ's workmanship, created FOR GOOD works... those who are saved are created for good works but we are not justified by works.
Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness.
An honest reading of Galatians Chapter 3 will differentiate between what you believe and the teachings of the Apostles.
There is no line of evidence that validates Joseph Smith as a Prophet. Only evidence to the contrary. Even dying while armed is an obvious evidence of his lack of Godliness. From Birth to Death it is clear that Joseph was a false prophet.
NOW... you can actually investigate these things with an open mind, or you can remain entrenched in a cult... but I have given you the biblical truth. We agree the Bible is true. Read it like a child and ask "What was the original author saying?" and decide if what you say lines up with it.
You have been deceived. A burning of the bosom is a subjective feeling you can get at a Taylor Swift concert... we rely on what is written, as Jesus did!
In this interview after telling his own anecdote on the futility of bashing they advise against combating with people who have alternative faith perspectives. Unless the group of pastor's you are conversing with are uniquely open minded and prepared to consider your point of view you will be pointlessly banging your head against a brick wall. They almost always have no intention of listening to what you have to say with any genuine intent to consider the validity of your perspective, their only purpose is to have you jump to a series of their pre conceived ideas as to what it is they claim you believe in. If after a few attempts you find yourself going around in circles save yourself the bother of trying to get through to them, their just not interested in what you have to say with any genuine intent to understand.
If anyone would like to worship the True Lord God, please head over to Cornerstone Chapel Online, Leesburg Virgina. Sundays 830, 10, 1130 EST
I would love to see mini series sets with the amazing guests y’all have on your channel. I have enough time for scripture study, but then I’m on the go from there so I seek out audiobooks and podcast, and may I say I’m so glad I found this one!
Nice video brethren!
I was impressed by the Spirit to prepared an address on this very topic in which I did some weeks ago. That is the most plain and precious thing which was taken out of the record of the Jews which Nephi saw, which is the name Jesus Christ.
With a close study of the Bible you can see that it's missing but evidence is present that it was there. If salvation is only in and through Jesus Christ that means they new his name since the days of Adam. If salvation is in the name of Jesus Christ they knew it. In my personal studies I've found evidence in the Bible that they new.
Peter even testified that,
Acts 4:12
"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved"
Acts 10:38-43
[ 38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:...
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.]
And Heb 4:2 testifies that the same gospel was preached to ancient Israel
"For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them:"
These scriptures testify that they new of the name Jesus Christ. For God is the same yesterday, today and forever and there is only one way back to the Father and one name whereby salvation comes unto all from the beginning of the world unto the end and that name is Jesus Christ.
I thank God for the Book of Mormon which also testifies of these precious truths and of Jesus Christ.
Thanks Stick of Joseph for another nice video. 🙏🏽
I love this video SO much! It has taken me 5 days to finish this video because I've paused it so many times to look things up in the scriptures. That's not something I've done before. Thank you for talking about the Tree of Life. That has changed me and the Spirit has been teaching me things I've never thought of before. Thank you. I'll be subscribing to Mike's channel and can't wait to have another place to dive deeply into! Thanks, guys.
Hey fellas 👋 I'm an Orthodox Christian, and I love Mormons 🤗 A lot of what Mike is talking about comes from Margaret Barker, whom he mentioned. Anyway, if I remember correctly, she was quoted by Pope Benedict XVI, Rowan Williams (Anglican), and EP Bartholomew (Orthodox) - quoted by all three of these church leaders, _all in the same calendar year._ That my friends, is what we call a hat trick.
Anyway, there's a good chance her reconstructions of the patriarchal Hebrew religion will become the scholarly consensus before too long, which means Orthodoxy and the LDS could potentially both see a big swell of interest 🙏
That is awesome! 🌟
Circles (concourses) of angels within the cube or holy of holies, the Debir. Circling the Square or Squaring the Circle. Interesting.
Mike Day was my seminary teacher at Copper Hills!!!
Please never stop! Yes I’m curious and hungry! We need the 3 of you. Pleeeeez👏👏👏‼️
Zarahemla was in Colombia, the Atrato river valley. It was perhaps the most strategically significant Nephite country because it served as the defensive state against the hostile nations of the Lamanites. It literally kept them bottled in. When the Lamanites began to prevail against the Nephites and drove them farther north, eventually the Nephites had to face the music and retreat. They loaded up ships and sailed across the gulf of Mexico, up the Mississippi, Ohio, and Allegheny Rivers and as much as they could via the Genesee river to try to get to Lake Ontario and the Saint Lawrence River. The place of refuge. A journey that probably took 4-6 months. The Lamanites caught up to them in Cumorah, and the Nephites fought their last battle in the war of extermination. There is no need to be confined by the "limited model". Ancient egyptians had a trade network as equally vast a thousand years before the events Mormon recorded. All ancient civilizations were River Valley civilizations. They were mariners. The Nephite countries occupied North America. A portion of the idolotrous and wretched Nephites made a successful escape down the Saint Lawrence river, following existing trading routes, and made it to the area we know as Scandinavia. They became the ancestors of many Northern European nations. Leaf Ericson was just trying to rediscover the mother-land. Joseph Smith is a direct decendent of Mormon and Nephi. Moroni was a resurrected, patriarchal ancestor of Joseph Smith who delivered a record of His very own ancient Ancestors.
Can you give sources of this? You sound very certain, but several things you said are new to me. I'm curious where you're coming from.
Keyword was was now its across the river from nauvoo in Illinois or didn't you get the memo.
Great point about the confounding of the languages! Woman, marriage, gender, truth. All these words have different meanings than they did 20 years ago.
This was so good! I listened to this 3 times to make sure I could follow the whole thing and it’s just so amazing! I feel like Jack, being able to see things that bring the issues of the period of time Lehi left Jerusalem makes so much sense!. Continue conversations like this please! It doesn’t change my testimony of the Book of Mormon but it strengthens it ❤
Holy Moly!
I dont even know where to go from here!
But I NEED more!
Thank you, I sincerely LOVE you guys.
Thank you
Thank you can we have more these sessions - this is my second time listening. I want on whole thing on the Tree as I want to see her everywhere. I loved this so much. Listening from Qld Australia.
Right! The word Cumorah is not intended to only describes a place, it describes a function: a place of sacred storage. Like the vault in up the canyon holding the Church records; that mountain is Cumorah.
Great video, fellas. As a Catholic, my ears perked up when you mentioned Mary. Catholic doctrine on Mary is based on both the Scriptures and tradition. The Hebrew kings of the Old Testament had a queen and, in accordance with Hebrew tradition, the queen was his mother and not his wife. This practice (and her position) were called "gebyra". The queen mother had wisdom and experience to help advise the king on running his kingdom. People took their most serious concerns and requests to the queen in the hopes she would speak to the king on their behalf. When Jesus is called "king of kings and Lord of Lords" in the Bible, the writers would have known that calling him king means that Mary is the Queen.
The Roman Catholic Church has been studying the topics in your video for many centuries. I encourage you to visit the Vatican website. There are thousands of documents there that you can access and study.
Thanks for the insight! We will look into it. Stay curious and hungry!
This was profound... Thank you guys for taking the time and thanks to Mike Day!
So interesting - I wish we could just watch these episodes for Elders Quorum lessons. Thanks Mike Day for your amazing research and sharing your knowledge, and thanks Paul bros for sharing this!!
Glad you like them!
Just finally caught up and saw this video. That, was, awesome! I love deep, diving and getting into all these beautiful, symbolic meanings of things, because there is so much of it. If you get into the meanings and symbolism of things in the culture of the native Americans there’s a lot of beautiful deep symbolism as well. Layers upon layers.I hope you guys have him on again
You can't just make stuff up though. "A tree bears fruit so it must be about a mothere..." This is a totally unjustified conclusion.
I was forced to listen to some "christians" doing a zoom seminar on transgender kids. She said that Adam was created non-binary because Eve had to be taken out of Adam. Everyone there thought it was beautiful but all it was was a perversion of scripture.
I gave it a thumbs up after just reading the title. After listening, it did not disappoint.
Love, love, love Mike Day! And all of you! Thanks for sharing on your quest for truth. Bless you all! 🙏 😇 😍
Yo it's Male version of Margaret Barker for Mormons!!!! You definitely need to do more episodes talking about the different documentary theories about the redacter and the Assyria vassal treaties! Effing love this kind of stuff. I wish we taught this in Sunday school. GIVE ME THE BORING STUFF BRO
Hahaha I love that you get as pumped as us!!!
Hell yeah dudes! This is the meat and potatoes, we gotta sink our teeth into.
Had to be the greatest collab of all time!!! I love Mike and listen to his podcast weekly! I’m going to have to register to this again tomorrow there’s soo much substance to digest!!!
What's his podcast called?
@@cindlou7335 www.youtube.com/@talkingscripture
@@cindlou7335 talking scripture
@@cindlou7335 Bryce Dunford his cohost also has such an amazing podcast about symbolism and the temple literally mind blowing!!!
Very excited for this one, it's a fascinating topic for understanding both the teachings and historical context of the Book of Mormon
Ohh it’s a good one IMO!
I love what Dr. Barker (Methodist scholar in England) had to say about Lehi and Nephi's vision.
"Imagine my surprise when I read the account of Lehi's vision of the tree whose white fruit made one happy. This revelation to Joseph Smith was the ancient wisdom symbolism, intact, and almost certainly as it was known in 600 BCE."
-Dr. Margaret Barker.
all I want is more Mike Day! he needs his on Pod, something like "Cool Shit with Mike Day" ... I'll accept other Podcast names as long as its Mike Day
Hahah he has one called “Talking Scripture” but I think your name is better
21:00 Not only that, but if you look at the Native american legends of Begochiddy and Salt Woman and Fire God, it is all very connected here.
This was a fantastic episode. Thanks for putting it together! Really looking forward to the next one!
This podcast came across my feed at the perfect time. Thank you for your efforts in sharing light in this dark world.
This is the kind of stuff I love! Hoping and waiting with great anticipation for the Church's official instructional materials to catch up with all this.
Remember: the English word "Lord" comes from "hlaf-weard" meaning the keeper of the bread.
WHAT. I love this! 🌟
This is so so spiritually deep!! Love to dive into truth I had to share this with everyone!!
This is so exciting! Thank you for taking the time to share! Wow, just Wow! 🎉☀️🙏🏻
Hey guys, I know this is an old video. Hope you get this comment. Just wondering if you’re related to Nicholas Paul who was a Englishman, who came out of South Africa after he was converted to the church? He went to Central Utah and lived for the remainder of his life.
I have to take issue with Deuteronomy 4:12 being used as a way of citing a contradiction when it comes to Moses actually seeing God. Those verses have nothing to do with Moses seeing God at the burning bush. They're actually pointing out that the children of Israel did not see God at the time that Moses received the commandments. The children of Israel chose not to take that step and therefore could only hear His voice. If you read those verses carefully, it is not referring to Moses. Read on when Moses takes over in verse 15 and reminds them of this very fact. There's no contradiction here.
First temple president and his wife/first officiators/workers? That's pretty fire
You two are just the cutest! I love this podcast so much! I learn so much. Thank you for all your hard work in putting this together for all of us to benefit from.
I am pro-Tower of Babel in the Bible is the same one in the Book of Mormon because of valley of Nimrod.
Ether 1:3&5
" And as I suppose that the first part of this record, which speaks concerning the creation of the world, and also of Adam, and an account from that time even to the great tower, and whatsoever things transpired among the children of men until that time, is had among the Jews --"
"But behold, I give not the full account, but a part of the account I give, from the tower down until they were destroyed."
Basically saying this is the Tower story from the Bible.
What an awesome and enlightened discussion.
This reminds me of a thought I had while in Sacramento meeting... Growing up you always hear about the fountain of youth and I had the thought during the dark ages and apostasy, the fountain of youth came from the fountain of truth. It's only a couple letters off and people are searching for the fountain of youth when they should be searching for the fountain truth which is Jesus Christ which he said drink from me and you'll never thirsty again. IMO
I'm 74. This kind of information wants me to live to be 200--so much to understand and learn and reach out to my Savior, and do temple work!!! I want to share it with my adult kids, but they won't understand unless they hear these teachings for themselves.
My God bless these scrlptorians and their families, especially those in the military!
Great stuff, especially in terms of the “anachronisms” in The Book of Mormon. It really opens my eyes and gives me a better appreciation for this great book.
This is super interesting! I want more!! Bring him back!!!
Their take on Hebrew is a very modern take. The poetry of Hebrew writing is that it was written by people who believe that breath is life. Consonants are not breath sounds, they are hard sounds. In writing, the text is effectively dead because it has no vowels, no breath, no life. It is only in speaking that the words are brought to life by adding the vowels. It is a language that is meant to be recited. In the same way God breathed life into Adam, we breathe life into his holy words when we recite them. For ancient people, the practicality of language was not their primary concern. Utilitarianism is a more modern concern.
Paleo Hebrew vowels, in some cases, were used as consonants: the English letter Y can be used as a vowel and a consonant.
Great interview. Love your comment Hayden "....sufficiently high." You are correct. There is literal and type. Christ is a type in the wilderness with Moses and there was a literal Christ, not just a type.
IM .LOVING. THIS! 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 please keep these videos coming!
Yes! I believe that Him most likely being married was edited out of the New Testament as well.
I agree, or at least, I think these things were tactfully not included in the relevant texts. It might have been dangerous to publicize widely His relations. After all, His brother James was stoned to death like the other Apostles and Mary His mother goes into obscurity. Being the familial relations of the founder of this new faith may have been very dangerous. The post-resurrection encounter with Mary Magdalene is extremely evocative, and I wonder if it was included for those "in-the-know" to get the hint.
@@TheYgdsI’ve never thought from the perspective that it was edited out “tactfully” so as to protect the rest of the family before. Great insight! And I too see the Mary Magdalene encounter is exactly what you say it was; for those “in the know”.
No doubt about it, He was married to Mary & Martha.
The Marriage at Cana is at least one of his marriages. Based on Jewish culture it's a dead give-away. Jesus was 100% married at least once.
@deborahbarlow4309 who might that have been to?
Fascinating discussion. Keep them coming! You guys are great.
Bro Mike was my seminary teacher in the 9th grade
Cleon Skousen alluded to Jesus being edited out of the OT in his book "Days of the Living Christ Vol 1" pages 86 - end of chapter, first published 1992. My edition is 2003.
Wow definitely going to listen to this again, great episode 🙏
33:23 Alma is also in the middle of the Book of Mormon!🤯 Moroni is a freaking literary genius!! God knew what he was doing when he picked him and his father to abridge the Book of Mormon!🤯
This is a question I have had for years. I'm so excited to learn more with your content. I love this channel!
More animations to accompany what you're sharing please! Maps showing the different groups and arrows etc, as well as trees in the holy of holies etc. I think that that can only help! Thanks for your hard work and thanks to each person helping you all behind the scenes!
The Jots and tittles in the Hebrew language is more than just vowels. It’s like a Tree, you have the main trunk of the message, and then you have all the branches which imply and you get so much more information from it. It’s concentrated if you will.
the term 'marriage' came about when the pacific broke through the isthmus between Antarctica and South America. Mar=sea Makes me think that the days of the week should be Dei as in deity. That also the 'days' of the week are a progression as well, culminating in Sun-Dei.
I’ve listened to this twice and will listen again. I love you sharing all this! It is so valuable.
Oh, please! I'm in!!!😂❤. This refrains a ton of things learned and taught by prog"s at university.
But as the primary song (I've been thinking of this week, wouldn't you know? (and that's a pun too) says : "there's a beautiful stairway that we must climb leading upward to lasting joy..... the heavenly concourses. The temple ascent....
I'm not going to get any sleep tonight.....oh well, time we'll spent😅. And I'm furthering my education in NE archaeology to boot. My idea of heaven...😂
MIKE! WRITE A BOOK DUDE!PLEASE. You're able to put all of this information into easily digestible words, how am I supposed to teach those around me when my words come out big dumb dumb? Gimme a book bro. 😊
Write?!? He’s a legend!
David Bokovoy’s book Authoring the Old Testament is a fantastic book that explains and proves the documentary hypothesis. It also helps navigate the implications of that with restored scriptures. It really is clear and obvious that the Pentateuch was not written by Moses and that the five Books of Moses is just a cultural tradition that attributes ancient prophets to these kind of sacred writings that are actually not contemporary with the events written. LDS folks need to be cognizant of these facts to understand what Joseph Smith’s MO was. Perhaps this would help members that lose their faith because of their literalist beliefs and provide a new perspective that actually is tenable. Great guest and topic. I learned so much and the content has been beneficial for a lesson I’m preparing on the topic of happiness. Thanks!!
I like the "Big View"
Two thoughts:
1)Lehi addresses the confounding of language problem in 2 Nephi 2 when he talked about “opposition in all things”. He was talking about maintaining clear boundaries and categories of language and thought. When you blur the lines of categories and language, everything becomes a “compound in one”.
2) I think the story of Noah is a type of the vision that Enoch has in the book of Moses.
Haven’t read the other comments, but how about the non-LDS scholar Margaret Barker about Deuteronomists?
.....Hugh Nibley's work was tremendous back in the day.........and still is relevant.........when I read the 14 books of the Meso- American prophets and scribes after being familiar with his ideals, it become crystal clear to me that the works are authentic history, regardless of one's believe system.....gh
Abraham was commanded to leave the land of his inheritance to go to the Promised Land that God had prepared for him. Abraham’s descendants lived there in peace until, Joseph (the birthright holder) was sold into slavery by his brothers. The Promised Land eventually became barren and it was no longer able to support the family. Meanwhile, God favored and preserved Joseph in Egypt. Joseph eventually became the means whereby the whole House of Israel was saved during the famine. The House of Israel unites and expands in Egypt and then they become the slaves to Egypt.
Why didn’t they go back to the Promised Land before that? Was it still barren? No By that time, the Canaanites were occupying the Promised Land, it was no longer barren but was “flowing with milk and honey.” Why didn’t Israel take back their rightful inheritance from the Canaanites? They were not allowed to take it back because the Canaanites had to become “fully ripe in inquiry” before they could be evicted (or scattered from the land). So the Israelites had to endure that 400 years of slavery until the Canaanites were “fully ripened in inquiry” before God disposed of them off Abraham’s inheritance.
Sounds like the Canaanites were doing somethings right before that 400 year mark had ended.
❤
Yes please! More on Heavenly Mother and the Tree of Life! This was SO good! Thank you!
This reminds me of Tongan poems and old songs. It’s has layers of meanings especially love poems and love songs. It is beautifully written and its meanings are hidden that the loved one is the only one that understands it. Once you understand the meaning of the song beyond the lyrics, can one understand what the author is going through. The author usually hides the his love for the girl from her parents or even his own parents who disapproves of her or him from her parents.
On my mission in New Zealand, I had a Bishop broke it down to me that the Garden of Eden is the Temple. I fully didn’t understand what he meant until I saw the podcast with Mike Day and David
I discovered that Saint Catherine's book, "The Dialog," is literally a commentary on Lehi's dream. I was shocked! She's communicating with God the Father in it, and he tells her that he's the man standing under the tree of life beckoning his children to come. The fruit of the tree is breast milk in her vision. I just couldn't believe it at first. There's so many aspects of what she wrote that fits this hypothesis really well.
Wait wait, hold up! Y’all are blowing my mind right now! 🤯 can we revisit this whole “tree of life and heavenly mother” symbolism in the BOM for a minute?! I feel like I need to unpack this MORE! 😍
An amazing book to read "He Walked the Americas" L. Taylor Hansen
That was awesome... Like seriously. I want more.
We will get more!
this was amazing, I am needing to watch it again ! Do more of this.
Can you guys touch on the subject of baptisms before Christ sometime? I thought baptism came in Jesus’ time but read in Mosiah last week that Alma baptized the people, which was before Jesus. Was baptism deleted from the Old Testament as well?
1:14:48 This is brilliant! We ARE saying the same words, but the meanings are VASTLY different.
One minor mistake that most are ignorant of and that is the mistake thinking that Hebrew has no vowels. Hebrew has always had vowel markers. There are ancient Hebrew texts of the Bible that pre date most with vowel markers. Hebrew doesn't have vowels in their alphabet but it has always had vowel markers.
The vowel markers are not always written because the reader already knows the sound and pronunciation.
I speak and study Chinese and it's the same, no vowels and no alphabet but there is a system of pronunciation and how to find the pronunciation of a character you might not know.
If the Brass Plates were the "permanent" record of Scripture or writings of Moses, from which the scrolls for the synagogues would be copied, and Lehi took those to the New World, then it would have been so much easier for these other groups to make redactions and changes.
I would have thought there were many other 'originals'. I always thought of the Brass Plates as being the 'Family Scriptures'
@@susannaholdfield7499 they likely were for their tribe or descendants of Joseph. But they would have made copies onto scrolls for regular use (See Deu 17:18). The scrolls would be much easier to handle etc, and multiple copies could be made. Paper, papyrus, or even animal skins would not last as long as brass. Even when Moses wrote the law down it was on tables of stone because of it's long lasting permanence (the Hebrew word translated table is "luach" which means something which glistens or is polished, and could refer to polished stone, metal, or wood). Some scholars think the commandments were on stone, and the rest of the law was on metal plates bound like a book.
Thank you.
Love it!! Keep up the good work fellas! Mike Day is the man!
Thanks for this. Mentions of Jesus by name in the BoM have always been troubling for me. P.S., you guys should publish a podcast feed! I'm on the road a lot and I would love to be able to download your stuff and listen to it.