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No, I dont think I will. Come on Byf, I know you need Money, but this is low-hanging Fruit. I've played Raid, its a boring scam. You press 2 buttons and win, if you dont, buy microtransactions. You cant be this desperate for money. Video starts at 2:59
Id love for a disciple to be the lead antagonist in a season so we could get more extensive lore on the history of the witness and the disciples. Id love a witness/disciple equivalent to the books of sorrow, but it might be to soon for that kind of depth
the final shape is the end of the light and dark saga, we have about a year until that (presumably) plus the seasons after expansion probably wrapping things up. I'd say it's about time for that, maybe after season of the deep?
@@davef4214 Drifter being a disciple doesn't line up as the Nine watch over him and are against the darkness. They wouldn't give him that ball if that were the case.
What would be insane is if the reason the witness never told any of the disciples it’s plan is because it knows that we as players could learn it through lore taps and cutscenes that our own guardian can’t see. It’s not out of the realm of possibility for characters in the destiny universe to acknowledge the real world. Namely the ahamkara and savathun have both talk to us directly and savathun has even attempted to manifest herself here.
Given that ahamkara speak to us, and that Savathun was trying to reach another world that many signs indicate is ours, I bet you’re right. I just hope Bungie remembers to write that in lol
@@TheCBoysDotCom Don't forget The Nine, iirc they've even got a line from somewhere where they state that The Guardian is as powerful as they are because 'Their will is not their own'
The most interesting thing that I think we learned from Rhulk was that Disciples are chosen even from species that had never been visited by the Travler or apparently was ever meant to be visited. Which puts the Traveler in a tough situation if you think about it; - do nothing but have the Black Fleet chase you around in empty space, and the Witness will still influence species to create Disciples/ the Vex will consume them (paracausality and all that being the only true hard counter to them) - visit civilizations and uplift them, terraform planets to cultivate new life as is its primary purpose seemingly, and the Witness' forces will target those civilizations for sure, even if they get to have hundreds or thousands of years of peace and prosperity What's better, take the Black Fleet on a wild goose chase and avoid all species in the universe, dooming them to the Disciples recruiting and annihilating them along with the Vex consuming them, or help out as best you can and also maybe find a people or groups of people that might help you take down the end of the universe?
This is a morally tough answer, but I say give them a chance to fight back. Yes, they're being condemned to doom, but one of those paid off and brought the fight to the Witness: Humanity.
@@rytr0nious Resonant Fury Hunter set. This is from the Mask: "Today, you again gifted me purpose, my Witness. A rapturous day, by the old pattern, my fingers knitting finality once more. But now, this purpose is equivocal, serving not the glorious abyss. The race-the Ahslid, in their degenerate, clicking dialect-have never known the enemy's luminous caress, will never know that caress. They are unnecessary, destined to die in a paltry million years still orbiting the same blue-white star that gave them succor. Irrelevant. And yet… "Your presence shall raise no more concern than that of a speck of dust blown off course by a distant sun. And you shall bow this people to our service, just as we enlightened you. Your value shall be their value.""
Another thing to note, what can be presumed to be Calus’s view of the final shape seems to be total extinction of life, based off of the chronicon, and knowing that Calus was a disciple leads to more uncertainty about the final shape, considering how different it is to Rhulk, Nezerac’s, and the Hive’s view of it
I'm honestly in the camp that Calus' view is correct, especially considering that it's the Witness' stated goal to end suffering. Suffering can only be ended in totality by exterminating all life. And considering how a biosphere functions, yes, winnowing all that complexity down to a single life-form WILL end in extinction. The wolf does not exist independently of the deer, or the rabbit. Without them, the wolf can't survive. And without predators? The deer and rabbit destroy themselves. Predation is cruel, but it is not of the Darkness. Predation creates balance, allowing complexity to thrive. A single "Final Shape" of the universe was never possible. Not unless it was of the Vex ;3
@@SymbioteMullet I've been saying that The Final Shape will be a Vex DLC since it was announced... Other than a bit here and there in Shadowkeep and Beyond Light, the last Vex DLC was Curse of Osiris. That was a looong time ago.
@Zelious that's partly a writing issue, as the Vex have no face characters. We haven't had a vex flavour season since Splicer either, and that was nearly 2 years ago now. If we go by what their lore is, they're basically unstoppable anyway, they've got to be an utter headache to make good content for.
The fact this unknown Disciple only references Savathûn, and not Oryx, indicates that Oryx - nor Xivu for that matter - were not considered Disciples. With the Darkness = mind stuff coming out that makes sense with Sav's trickery, but it could also perhaps imply that when Oryx communed with the Darkness and learned to Take, Oryx did not speak with the Witness, and may have actually spoken to the Winnower/true Darkness
@@nemokrad2650but they’re referring to when Oryx in the Books of Sorrow communes with the Darkness. This was before much of the current lore existed, and thus we don’t know if this was a lie of some kind or misrepresentation, or if it implies another being besides the Witness
@@TheCBoysDotCom completely possible that he only spoke to the worm god and learned to take by defeating it. Just like guardians, wielding the darkness doesn't require one to commune directly to the witness. A firm understanding (for strand) or strength (for taken powers and stasis), is enough for one to wield it.
Absolutely. We guardians are dead. But the recent chatter with all the city citizens talking about only having one life to live makes it seems like the current destiny writers have forgotten that we are not alive
@@zealobiron Citizens only have one life to live, and both in the new campaign and season we've mainly interacted with people who also only have one life, to me it feels like its okay for them to talk about that stuff... Unless i understood your point wrong?
@@zealobiron Ah got it, but i don't think that's what they're trying to imply? And in a way lightbearers do have multiple shots at living, unlike civilians and other characters, it makes sense that they talk about it.
@marincxvii but we're not alive. We don't need food. Sleep. Love or compassion. We only need an assignment. Which also makes me dislike all the emotion and relationships that guardians have now. It bothered me that the citizens of the city say that like we guardians are the lucky ones. Our lives are over. Sure there's plenty to be proud of to save those that can't do it themselves. But I always thought we guardians look at the living with a sense of longing. Knowing that no matter what the outcome of this war that we have been revitalized to be a part of, we will never be ALIVE again.
The use of O Witness has me wondering if it could possibly be an Ahamkhara... doubly so with how inquisitive and independently thinking this lore tab is.
It isn't unusual for Disciples to use "My Witness" when addressing them. So if this was the case why not "O Witness mine" which is the usual way Ahamkhara address people? It just seems more like general reverence to me.
Could be a subtle Worf Effect. If we assume that the disciple in this lore book really is an Ahamkara: first of all, that's terrifying, because Riven's power level was kind of ridiculous from a lore perspective (her encounter isn't that hard, but it's also probable that she let us kill her), and she was just a Taken Ahamkara, so the idea of an Ahamkara Disciple is a whole 'nother level of power scaling. Second, and the reason I invoke Worf Effect here, is that considering the reason Ahamkara use the "O whatever mine" shibboleth so much (which I forget the exact explanation offhand but there's lore behind that phrase), the fact that this hypothetical Ahamkara Disciple *knows better than to try to pull that on the Witness* speaks volumes again as to how threatening the Witness is.
@@life-destiny1196 So just to answer two things here: 1) Riven did let us kill her, albeit in a roundabout way that made us 'wish' for it. Granting said wish is where she got the power to grant Savathun's wish, the Curse on the Dreaming City. 2) The 'O [subject] Mine' is used so often by the Ahamkara, and others besides, because it grants power over the subject you are addressing though I can't recall off-hand what exactly that entailed. My immediate assumption is that it is some sort of psychic suggestion to nudge the subject into doing what you want them to do, which in the Ahamkara's case would be to wish for things.
@@79bigcat It's possible that the Ahamkara is fulfilling a wish of obedience and servitude, in which case the 'mine' would conflict with that, as it is typically used by Ahamkara to assert a level of ownership over the one who makes the wish.
the reference to plato’s cave and the idea of them being an assassin makes me wonder if this disciple could be a human, possibly a double agent working amongst guardians to maintain their cover
"I am only your violence" This sentence is telling to me. It tells me that the writer does not consider themselves something as specific as an assassin. It considers itself a weapon, certainly, but not a hidden one. With the introspection and calm they show I am reminded of the romantic image of a samurai. Loyal beyond their own doubt and ruthlessly brutal when unleashed. It also tells me that Disciples seem to embody some specific service to the Witness. Calus claimed himself the Herald. This unknown Disciple was the "violence". Rhulk seemed a majordomo of sorts. And then there is Nezarec, not sure about him. Perhaps a spy? A saboteur? It all seems a little odd though as the question of why remains. Why have disciples at all? What purpose do they werve for the Witness. In many ways they seem expendable (I am convinced that Calus was made a Disciple at least partly to lure us in). Something is not adding up with the Witness.
Seeing that the witness has been chasing the Traveller for who knows how long and has not once obtained the final shape, no? I mean the witness had to get the Idea from somewhere. So maybe the final shape is theory it’s trying to prove.
The ultimate plot twist: Remember how the war between the Witness and the Traveler started long before even Rhulk? Who was billions of years old by this point? How old is the Witness? Way older, far far older. But has the war between Light and Dark gone even before the Witness? And if so, what were the rules of that prior war? I'm going to be bold and say the Witness was influenced by an even older entity who viewed the Light and Dark as Freedom and Control, and the final shape is control over freedom. This entity sought to be the control over freedom. However it did not seek it for some incredibly divine reason, unlike it's siblings who fought for the right and wrong reasons. This entity sought control over freedom for it's own purposes. And it cultivated a spiteful failsafe. If it couldn't win it's war, and gain control over freedom, then no one will have control or freedom. And hence created the lie of the final shape, that in the end nothing shall exist, and hence true peace shall be made. But really, it serves no purpose whatsoever and is only used to spite the other spirits and destroy their precious garden they worked so hard to cultivate. It spoke to the Witness, many lost peoples who wandered the cosmos searching for answers. It gave them purpose, purpose in dark natures. And in the end of it's influence, the many peoples under it's influence became one being, with many persons (Think of how God is three persons but one God type of thing), and they had a but load of power. And they became the spiteful failsafe. If this one entity couldn't get what it wants, then everyone will die at the hands of the Witness. Now presently, this entity hasn't lost. And in fact hides among us. Where? Not as a person on the streets. It has not possessed anyone in the elect. Not at all. It resides within the Traveler. It snuck in at one point, and enslaved the entity behind the Traveler. And has been manipulating it to serve it's final purpose through it's own actions. If it is stopped, the Witness will achieve the final shape. If it wins, it will emerge and take both the Witness and the Traveler, and combine them into one, and merge them both with it. And will then proceed to enslave the universe to it's logic, control over freedom. It could have been stopped long ago, but no one saw it coming. And still, no one sees it coming. And it will win.
If we take the Witness to be the Winnower from the Unveiling lore book. Then it knows about the final shape and what the pattern for it looks like, as the flower game in the garden before our universe always ended with a dominant pattern and Final Shape at the end of each "round" of the game
@@donweiss2326 Hold on I think you’re misinterpreting. That “pattern” was just the Vex. The Vex are the ultimate pinnacle of life in a universe without Paracausality, and no matter how many rounds were played the Vex always won until the paracausals entered the game
Something I noticed after the Lightfall campaign is that the triangle the Witness carved into the Traveler looks suspiciously like the entrance to the Infinite Forest. Given that the Vex were also trying to simulate the Veil in the Black Garden, were they also trying to simulate what the Witness did to the Traveler?
Nezarec may be less of a defector and more like that one annoying member of your fireteam that knows what to do but just don't want to do it and prefers to do his thing his way, which breaks a raid encounter run. His psionic ability is immense, being able to infiltrate into minds, torturing and getting information with no effort is crazy. But then again, his vibe is he love to torment. He doesn't care about the outcome. Only the fear, pain, and nightmare is what he wants. Thus, that's his sin and thus he was being punished for it. You didn't do your job, Nezarec, and you have the audacity to ask the guardians why you are being punished for "doing your job"?
Its what is bound to happen when a bunch of powerful bad dudes all team up together. They always have their own egos and motives. Although Rhulk was arrogant he seemed very subserviant to the Witness where as Nezarec seemed like he just enjoyed the power he got from him.
To the Witness the Final Shape may either be the end of existence or freedom from the revised Flower Game or both. But I think the true Final Shape is the Player Guardian, a being using both Light and Dark to shape reality to their whim and stand supreme in their universe. It's our Guardian's Destiny.
I think the Witness is the winner of the Flowers game, every Flowers Game all merged in to one being (Hence the multiple head thing). I think the Witness wants to be the final shape in every possible universe. The Veil, i believe, is the gateway that once someone passes through it is the official end of the game. If someone passes through and there is no one left capable of winning, the flowers game ends. Only the game didn't end which means some other pattern is capable of winning the game.
@@MichAllen yes, they play into the theme of Destiny: Balance. BUt it is the Player Guardian who has shaped reality the most via god slaying and other plot formations via the powers of Light and Dark...but so has Mara. Ultimately I feel it's the Player Guardian's Destiny to become or create the Final Shape with Mara being a close contender. To defeat the Witness and reset the Flower Game to the bipartisan likings of both the Winnower and Gardner and I feel the Vex will become the ultimate enemy via their own forced proposal of a Final Shape bleak of finite vibrancy in favor of rigid patterns.
I suspect that the Witness brought a Disciple or two into the portal with it when we see three ships get pulled in. Maybe one of them is this unknown figure who could be close to the Witness when it comes to achieving their grand plan of the Final Shape.
In the Jisu Calerondo report, they say scientests are investigating the alien structure created "from the remains of the traveler" and the link is created between the Veil and the Travelers "pale heart". Does this not imply that what we call 'the Traveler' is not the the whole of the Traveler but is instead just its "pale heart"?
I assumed that the "complete" traveller included the pyramid ships and the the white sphere was indeed, the pale heart. Which makes sense in that part of it it black but the centre (or heart) is pale.
Bruh The pale heart is the source of light in the Traveler. That much is blatantly obvious from how the witness had to cut into the Traveler to use it to open the portal.
Love how in the B-Roll Byf puts the orb down, kills some enemies and then looks for the orb only to realize it has de-spawned. Same thing has gotten me many times.
Byf, if you could read this I would greatly appreciate it. I believe that the traveler is the unnamed desciple . If we think back to the parasite mission dialogue, savathuns worm mentions that “the witness turned a violent gaze on traveller” this I think is worded in such a way that at one point the traveller served or was at the witness’s side. I don’t have much else behind this but I could possibly say that the traveller may have realised the final shape may have resulted in the deaths of billions so it took the source of the light or destroyed all other sources and ran so that the witness could never achieve her plans. Created guardians in the hope of being protected and stopping the witness.
Also the desciple being aware it is a weapon that needs a vessel to construct and use its power fits quite nicely into the traveller doing nothing , but the power it holds as a “weapon” being the light cannot be used effectively by itself. (Though it has used some attacks or bursts in the time it has been on earth , it seems to really strain the traveller as it doesn’t do them very often)
At this point I think that the final shape is the assurance of the impossibility of all kinds of life forms and all forms of being. The disciples seems like an elegant and efficient way to use the worst that life has to offer as an tools to accomplish a goal, prove a point and deliver poetic punishment to life itself.
I've returned to Destiny for about a year now, and I can't express how much your videos are important for my perception of this game. Your work with Martin is ASTONISHING! Seriously, I love this game, but you bring a flavor to it that is so essential. I'm so thankful for that. I'm a french canadian, so pardon my difficulty to express my thougt in english clearly. The witness and his Disciples are almost all about sword logic right? Then, why do they operate according to the bomb logic? They work as a team to reach the final shape, which is paradoxal with their own philosophy. Each Disciple is a being of immense paracausal power, yet they were assembled by the witness to seak his ending. The same could be said for Oryx : the king drawed power from his army, his lieutenants and his worm, but he devoted his life to the sword logic. Maybe you have already talked about this in a previous video, but your two last publishings made me think that worshiping a philosophy doesn't mean that you can truly abide to it solely. Maybe you have to navigate through both to reach your true goal, just like you have to wield Darkness and the light to reach your destiny.
So the Sword Logic is specifically the Hive's variation/misunderstanding of what the Witness actually believes. I think it was probably the worm gods that told them that was how the world worked. Our best understanding of the philosophy behind Darkness is outlined in the lore book Unveiling, which is essentially the Destiny universe's creation myth. The author of that book, "the Winnower," who may or may not be the Witness, worked together with another character called "the Gardener" to create a bunch of universes by playing Conway's Game of Life over and over. Over time the Gardener became annoyed that every game they played eventually achieved the same result every time, in that one shape seemed to consistently dominate the universe every single time (heavily implied to be the Vex). The Winnower, on the other hand, thought it was really cool. The two had a fight, resulting in a much messier and more chaotic universe than usual, which is the universe Destiny takes place in. Paracausal power is essentially the result of the inadvertent interference the Gardener and Winnower put into this universe: respectively, the Light and the Darkness. (There are also probably some other sources of paracausality besides those two; it's likely that the Ahamkara are an example of a paracausal force that isn't Light or Dark in nature.) The big question behind all of this is whether the Gardener's philosophy of constant growth and complexification or the Winnower's philosophy of constant simplification will win out in this iteration of the universe. Essentially, whether they are the same person or not, the Witness appears to want to hasten a Winnower victory, which is to say, it wants the universe to reach some sort of end state that no longer changes. This is where the phrase "the Final Shape" comes from: it's the shape that eventually comes to dominate the game the Gardener and Winnower play to create the universe every time. Whether it wants to do this by empowering the Vex specifically or it has some other "shape" in mind is not really clear at this time. The Sword Logic is essentially a philosophy the Hive and/or worm gods came up with that takes the Winnower's philosophy and chooses to enforce it with extreme violence. Their conception of the Final Shape is that it can be reached by removing from existence everything that can possibly be removed. If you can be killed, it is because you were too weak to continue enforcing your own existence.
Maybe the witness knows that if he gives one distinct definition for the final shape, and if that definition isn’t very well liked among his disciples (say, everything but him must die), that’ll probably lead quite a lot of mutiny in the black fleet. Furthermore, by allowing each disciple to formulate and believe their own idea for what the final shape is that would most likely benefit them (like how most of them think it’ll be only themselves and the witness at the end of the universe), and perhaps by disallowing communication between disciples, the witness could easily keep his enormous army fighting for him, only for him to turn on them once the pesky traveler is dealt with.
That would be pretty interesting to be fair. Uun would be a fitting individual to be the Witness's weapon or violence, since basically all he knows is violence and destruction at the hands of Rhulk
re:pronouns, Bungie has pretty consistently used "it" for the Witness. I like this as much as I liked the old theory (prior to Plunder which disconfirmed it) that the player character was Nezarec prior to their death and resurrection as a guardian. I think we're kinda due for a "the player character something something all along" reveal at some point.
As Renthrexx noticed, each known/speculated Disciple represents one of the sins. Rhulk is Pride, Calus is Greed/Gluttony, Nezerac is Wraith, Eramis is Envy. If this is true, we got 3 Disciples left. Greed/Gluttony, Sloth, and Lust. I doubt a Sloth would write anything like this as I doubt Sloth would take confrontational action like asking WHAT the Final Shape is. Greed unlikely wrote this, as I doubt they'd be satisfied no answer to what the Final Shape is. Gluttony unlikely wrote this, as they wouldn't have peace is the moment and accept being nothing more than a tool of violence. Lust... Might've wrote this. Lecherous demons are known for trickery to seduce their prey, so these books could be nothing more than seedlings planted to lure us in. As Nezzy said, Guardians can't resist unanswered questions, or a challenge. If Bungie is going this route, I'd expect "Lust" to be the next Disciple we face. I know this interpretation of "Lust" isn't the classical portrayal of lechery, but considering how passionate Guardians can be about multifaceted things, this could be the way it goes. It'll use Crows grief for Amanda, our desire for answers, Caiatls hunger for war, and so on.
Byf, I'm curious what you think of Aztecross's latest video on the Veil? How each of these lore passages start with that same phrase "a data fragment marks its passing", and how he correlates it to the OXA machine and the possibility that the OXA machine and the veil are one and the same. It seemed to make sense in my head but I'm sure you could delve into it much deeper.
whoever this disciple is, they definitely give me devoted warrior vibes, like a cleric or paladin, but one who is starting to question their faith. I wouldn't rule xivu arath out so quick, but I do doubt it's her. It would be interesting if the Witnesses weapons is LITERALLY the Witnesses weapon though, like imagine the final fight between us and the witness and the witness uses a sentient weapon somewhat like a few of our own weapons, like xenophage, Darci, or whisper.
I think the idea of the final shape may draw back to what Osiris said in that the light controls aspects of our physical plane while dark our non physical I think it's that same with the traveler and the witness with the Travler being a terraformer it can control life to suit its purpose and make what it sees to be perfect and the same with the witness but it's final shape may be an idea achieved or a state of understanding reached not just for it but to all those that follow it hence the witness says the final shape will be perfect for everyone because it is an state of the mind not some paradise reached where the light doesn't exist
The hidden disciple sounds a bit like Thane in how they talk about their position of being the Witness's weapon. Thane would definitely not be following the Witness though.
Professor: today we are going to talk about Shakespeare… again. Student: Byf uploaded! Professor: nvm, we are talking about this hidden disciple and possibly the Final Shape!!!
You have just shattered some of my ideas but at the same time solidified what I used to believe what The Final Shape was and have now reinvigorated those ideas of what I believe is going on in game. You want your mind really blown? I wrote about Plato's Allegory of The Cave 6 years ago in a Reddit Post and it used to exist in game. On IO in The Cave of Ulan Tan there was a section where you would enter a room and The Vex would be kneeling like in the Black Garden and in that kneeling they were all staring at a Shadow cast from light on the Cave Wall. Only thing this the Shadow was static and it was in the silhouette of a man. This lore entry has just brought together years of research and hundreds of pages of notes. Thank You, Thank You Thank You
Ikora's vision at the remix of young Savathun showed that she was lied to. It's entirely possible, if a little unimaginative, that the Witness had told his disciples what they wanted to hear to get them to serve him. This still leaves the final shape a complete mystery, but it's plausible. Also, I can totally see us getting a begrudged alliance with the hive and Savathun against the Witness, and if Oryx is alive? on Titan, then that could be at least a temporary truce with the Taken. We've already got Cabal and Fallen. Now we just need Asher Mir to convince the Vex that the witness is a threat to their survival.
Wait until Fanatic joins forces w/ Crow and brings the mini screebs! I could see him being w/ the invasion force inside the traveller if/when that happens
My theory is that the Witness is also tired of being a pawn in the Gardener/Winnower game and wants to get rid of them. He speaks about It and the Traveler being both VICTIMS and perpetrators of the universe’s (G and W) infinite cruelty and if anything, he seems to pity the traveler more than anything. So yeah, that whole wormhole thing to me is the Witness going where/when the gardener/Winnower are, to get rid of them and that will be the final shape. We will probably stop him from the specifics of how he plans to do it (which would probably be more destructive than anything) but some sort of final shape where the universe is freed from their game/grasp will still happen, which is what will lead into the next chapter of Destiny (hopefully D3 starting mostly from scratch on a very changed universe)
The universe won’t be free it’ll be destroyed all at once when light and dark is destroyed there’s nothing left the final shape will be the end of the universe and that’s how they’ll reset for d3
I get the feeling this is Mara Sov. The style, the contempt for the others and her personal circumstances (once dead), the fact she has interacted with the Witness and knows a lot plus her age because of the distributary etc...
Honestly not bad. I don't see any universe in which Mara Sov characterizes herself as a mere mindless weapon of something else, though. I do think it's probably a human, given the really specific reference to Plato here. Whether it's someone we've met already I'm not convinced about. The style is all wrong for it to be Drifter, but someone Drifter-adjacent would be my guess. He's been out of the system, something something tombs of nezarec, etc I also think there's no way this is Clovis speaking, even though, let's be real, there's no way he doesn't end up working for the Witness by the end of all of this. In fact, wasn't it recently implied it was one of Nezarec's cult that told him how to use Darkness to make Exos?
One thing that stands out to me is the Witness’s line in Lightfall which DOES tell us a little bit about its goals- “We know pain. Our purpose is it’s end.” Still makes things even more confusing as this flies in the face of Nezarec’s goals of inflicting pain and torment.
Perhaps it’s a case of when immortals feel cursed by their purpose or immortality, or when they enjoy their purpose but would gladly seek and end to it, making the time to that purpose that much sweeter
"...How little how enemies know." during that whole part of the video I was like. And what if even the witness does know what the final shape is. One of the reason he might not have guided his disciples through a specific aspect of the final shape could be that he is himself trying to figure out what it is.
Okay so I have a thought/question that has been popping into my head through all the recent videos and discussions about the 'Final Shape' and the Witness's plans: If we assume that the Flower Game, Gardener, and Winnower concepts are a biased but accurate portrayal of history - then wouldn't the obvious goal of the Witness be to simply return to the old status quo? If it's true that the Gardener/Traveler was the one who's discontent led to a conflict that created time, space, and reality - then it seems to follow that the Witness/Winnower would simply want to go back to the old order; phrased differently, "reset the clock" - which would seem a relevent concept if the story is about to dive into time-travel.
I like the idea that the log is all 1 person and the first few sentences are the person in question looking back and seeing that past part of their life where they worked for the witness as a different person. Similar to Vader and Anakin. Vader sees Anakin as a different person and often talks about how "Anakin died when Vader was born" and I'm wondering if this could be a similar situation with this new disciple.
I saw a comment on a video about savathuns question to our guardian. “Have you ever wondered why you can use both light and dark, while the rest of us are constrained to one” And he made the point that this is because we are the subject of the final trial between the gardener and winnower. We have to have the ability to choose one or the other, or to choose our own destiny which includes both. He also stated that WE are the final shape. Being the subject of the final trial, and having the ability to control light and dark, we GUARDIANS are the final shape. Aka the final shape is the shape of the GUARDIAN. You have the mother morph the king morph, the knight morph and the guardian morph. At least as far as I remember. Not to mention it’s been hinted at that the final shape is death. But no detailed description is given, but if you consider the personification of death(aka the grim reaper), OUR GUARDIANS SHARE A NUMBER OF SIMILARITIES WITH THIS PERSONIFICATION. “A delusion of a being long dead, with one goal to serve” while the one goal is not obvious? Our guardians are beings that are long dead, and are a bit delusional in the sense that we don’t fully understand everything that’s going on around us, yet we have a major part to play regardless, in fact we are the main act despite having the least information on the matter. Also the witness is honing us into something that can’t be killed basically. The final shape in the eyes of the darkness would be a life form that does not wither, “the survival of the fittest” in a sense. And we are the fittest, the collapse was shedding away the fat, and leaving only the muscle and strength behind. The darkness is honing humanity into the ultimate lifeform that constantly overcomes adversity, but it’s constantly testing us to prove whether we are what it’s looking for. The final shape. The life that will dominate the rest.
Disciple : Witness, I want you to explain what is the final shape Witness: only for 60 dollars i can allow you to know what is the final shape, altho not even Bungie might know what the hell is this final shape. Discple: what?
my spinfoil hat theory is its an ahamkara, being that Mara still has the egg, them being referred to a wish dragons and the line "there is a conflict in me, O Witness, that unsettles my weapon..." i haven't head many other beings in the universe talk in that way, and it kind of feels link they're interrogating the witness to find out what their "wish" is . could all just be head canon but id like to hear your thoughts
The final shape is likely something triangular since it’s it the most simple that a shape can be while still being a shape. Which would explains why everything the witness does is characterized by triangular shapes, the ships, the portal in the traveler, etc.
I think the answer is pretty obvious, even if it's not what you'd expect. The Final Shape is only that which is necessary when all else is cut away. But now, the universe is paracausal, and perspective and subjective will can dominate what was absolute and objective. Fact of the matter is, the Final Shape can be interpreted in a hundred, a thousand, a billion different ways, and all of them *could* actually be true. Therefore, those interpretations need to compete themselves in order to prove that they were the Final Shape, and so one of them will inevitably win, but the only question that matters really is which one will. That, or the Witness in seeking the end of all things is letting its Disciples imagine whatever perfect end goal they need to justify their allegiance, when in actuality it itself is lying by omission; the Final Shape is truly nothing, and therfore it doesn't need to uphold its end of the bargain when it wins because, well, there isn't a universe, Disciples, Light, Dark, Traveler or itself anymore. Isn't the first time it's lied to achieve its goal, right Savathun?
Anyone else prefer him showing concept art and fan art in the background over gamepley? It makes it much easier to visualize the lore when you have something like that to reference.
Before the disciples there were many shapes. Crota was big boi. Oryx was really big boi. Atheon was machine boi. Taniks bowed to no kell. With Rhulk we had Chad bod. With Nezarec we had dad bod. What will the final body shape be? I must know Byf. Before it's too late for me to become that shape.
For me, this is yet another example of the lore team's EXCELLENT retconning skills. It's no secret that Bungie have been changing the Destiny story as they go. Maybe their new direction requires a new understanding of the final shape. This entry by the lore team is auite possibly the smartest and most engaging way to retcon the current definition. Lore team is the core team.👌🏾
I believe this is a memory of Rhulk, "A being long dead" could be him, long dead is quite a vague term. He was completely devoted to the Witness without question and the text reads in a way I find reminiscent of him too. Also, the "Sharp-edged data fragment" brings to mind his glaive, to me at least.
Definitely didn’t even think about this nezarec and rhulk are both cruel but both in different ways one will cut down the weak while the other preys and feeds off the seals suffering
A being long dead, that was reborn into servitude sounds a bit like our Guardian also. A lot of the story does revolve around them. No matter what happens, our Guardian is there. Ghost being linked to the Darkness? Was it because of our Guardian gained the ability? IIRC, besides Savathun our Guardian is the only Lightbearer connected with the Darkness. I’ve not played since Season of the Drifter, but I always followed Byf’s lore videos. Kudos to you man.
One way to interpret the allegory of the cave is that understanding of the truth cannot be shared, only experienced and that any attempt to do so will be rebuked, challenged and/or misinterpreted. So the Witness, who has seen the truth (or Witnessed it), allows his disciples to act and believe as they do because their view of the world won't change until they themselves witness the truth. It may be that the Disciples are selected because they are truth adjacent or near enough to the truth to question the shadows on the walls or the Witness selects them based on their willingness to do whatever is asked of them and bear enough power to actually see those aims through.
The second I heard cave and philosophy, I was shouting Plato. There was a reason I remember my AP English class. My teacher was very thorough in studying this piece of philosophy....I should have those old notes somewhere.
This Disciple understood that it didn't understand but as it thought through, it realized, it's all part of the plan and to trust in the witness since even this is the witness' design. Maybe hes already seen the end so many times hell change it this time, the final time.
Very interested as to see just who wrote this book, we've already been told that we'll be seeing disciples across the next few seasons, but it's just struck me that the witness doesn't seem to have a "right hand" individual, we just assumed Rhulk was, as he was the first. What if we just haven't met them yet, just as we may not have seen the witness' true form, as hinted at in the scene where Calus questions the Witness, then begins to shake, stutter and bleed as he's englufed by a growing shadow
Here is a cool hidden detail that BYF needs to address. In forsaken right before Uldren shot cayde, Uldren's voice changed to the witness voice for a few seconds, but the voice was definitely not Uldren considering a few seconds later his voice is now back to his original voice and it sounds completely different from a few seconds ago.
after hearing your description of this disciple, i’m inclining to think they are akin to some sort of warrior poet. Just like how many warriors of the past also had some sort of philosophical musings, and it makes it more interesting as it what alien race this disciple might be or their accomplishments
this is personally my own self made theory, but from a lore perspective and based on our encounters with the darkness entirely(the fact we’re able to hone the darkness’ powers so easily and the Witness’s interest in us since Shadowkeep), what if we, the Guardian, are the secret disciple 🤔 again it’s my own imagination running wild with far fetched ideas
One thing that’s missing from the Disciple’s musings on the “shadows on the wall” is that in the original allegory, Plato was very clear that we should be critical of the people holding up the objects whose shadows were projected. They were not only complicit in obscuring the truth, they were solely responsible for it. Who else but the Witness can be responsible for these shadows, and will the Disciple come to the same conclusion that Plato did - that in order to perceive the truth of the Final Shape, they need to reject the Witness and seek the truth themselves?
Wasn't there some vex mind that was created in response to them first discoverig sword logic that had said they were the needle that would pierce, and become the final shape? The lone was something like that. I don't remember who it was tho...it was on a lore card I think. Maybe that is the "unknown" disciple. Also, oryx was a disciple that flat out said he was the final shape
It sounds like some of what we are getting from the vagueness of this season. Particularly with the portal directly opened within the traveler we are prisoners in our own thoughts to interpret what lies beyond
Easiest guess is that it is xivu. Otherwise speculation would lead to an unknown ahamkara considering they're the only ones knows to be as cunning and use the "O ...... mine"
I've been curious about that too. Why do the followers of the Witness have a difference in beliefs? Wasn't the Witness the one that guided them all? This is especially evident in the difference between Oryx and Rhulk. Oryx believes that the "Final Shape" is to be among the strong that cannot be defeated, beings that can overcome anything thrown at them. Yet, Rhulk seems to believe that all things must end, and he would gladly be the one to cut everything down. If you look at them in a different point of view, Oryx believes he needs to be stronger and Rhulk believes that he's already the strongest. The Witness could easily fix all these differences, yet it didn't. That's why I strongly believe that the Witness are simply using every single one of its followers. It says it wishes to end Pain, yet it allows someone like Nezarec to be a disciple. If I were to describe the Witness right now, I'd say it is; "A voice that tells you exactly what you wish to hear. Like something that offers false comfort by telling you that you are correct"
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Love you Byf, but no, not even for you :(
I get people have to take sponsorships but really, *raid?* disappointing.
Are you gonna start making raid lore?
No, I dont think I will. Come on Byf, I know you need Money, but this is low-hanging Fruit. I've played Raid, its a boring scam. You press 2 buttons and win, if you dont, buy microtransactions. You cant be this desperate for money.
Video starts at 2:59
Even this forced comment looks like a scam.
Us: “Wtf is the Veil”
The disciples: “Wtf is the Final Shape”
Bungie: “Uhh.”
🤣🤣🤣
😂😂😂
😂
They are one in the same
Id love for a disciple to be the lead antagonist in a season so we could get more extensive lore on the history of the witness and the disciples. Id love a witness/disciple equivalent to the books of sorrow, but it might be to soon for that kind of depth
Maybe an espionage season where we prettend to wanna be a disciple called season of the disciple.
I don’t think your request is too much considering we have like ~10ish months before we kill (or at least defeat in a big way) the witness.
the final shape is the end of the light and dark saga, we have about a year until that (presumably) plus the seasons after expansion probably wrapping things up. I'd say it's about time for that, maybe after season of the deep?
@@christopherm.1258 thats like dlc content worthy, its a good idea but seems too late in the story now
@@christopherm.1258 kinda late to try and even act like we are switching sides.
Byf is definitely the hidden Disciple, I’m calling it now
Agreed in totality
he's been feeding us "theories" and teaching us about the "lore"
it was all a diversion
to keep us from the final shape
That would be interesting
Why didn't I see it before it makes so much sense!!
And then you just read "Orodacia ad astra"
Holy shit, a Disciple capable of thinking critically? I mean they’re probably still a genocidal maniac but still, I like this guy
They're thinking critically but also don't care about the answer since they're already satisfied with their own place in the plan.
Plot twist, it's Drifter
@@davef4214 Drifter being a disciple doesn't line up as the Nine watch over him and are against the darkness. They wouldn't give him that ball if that were the case.
Clovis Bray is widely known to be one of the most intelligent beings in Destiny. So I think he fits the criteria also 🤔
@@PanoptesDreams true, he just can't be trusted
What would be insane is if the reason the witness never told any of the disciples it’s plan is because it knows that we as players could learn it through lore taps and cutscenes that our own guardian can’t see. It’s not out of the realm of possibility for characters in the destiny universe to acknowledge the real world. Namely the ahamkara and savathun have both talk to us directly and savathun has even attempted to manifest herself here.
Given that ahamkara speak to us, and that Savathun was trying to reach another world that many signs indicate is ours, I bet you’re right. I just hope Bungie remembers to write that in lol
@@TheCBoysDotCom Don't forget The Nine, iirc they've even got a line from somewhere where they state that The Guardian is as powerful as they are because 'Their will is not their own'
@@S3Cs4uN8 implying their nature as characters perhaps? Or another hierarchy above them? The possibilities!
Also stated that The Witness is above the Universe so meaning it operates on a higher plain of existance so honestly its possible
Gives me more of the energy of Eins or whatever where they're just winging it as they go along lol
The most interesting thing that I think we learned from Rhulk was that Disciples are chosen even from species that had never been visited by the Travler or apparently was ever meant to be visited.
Which puts the Traveler in a tough situation if you think about it;
- do nothing but have the Black Fleet chase you around in empty space, and the Witness will still influence species to create Disciples/ the Vex will consume them (paracausality and all that being the only true hard counter to them)
- visit civilizations and uplift them, terraform planets to cultivate new life as is its primary purpose seemingly, and the Witness' forces will target those civilizations for sure, even if they get to have hundreds or thousands of years of peace and prosperity
What's better, take the Black Fleet on a wild goose chase and avoid all species in the universe, dooming them to the Disciples recruiting and annihilating them along with the Vex consuming them, or help out as best you can and also maybe find a people or groups of people that might help you take down the end of the universe?
This is a morally tough answer, but I say give them a chance to fight back. Yes, they're being condemned to doom, but one of those paid off and brought the fight to the Witness: Humanity.
@InDominus it's not exactly a perfect situation, but it really does seem to be the best course of action.
Which part of lore does Rhulk talk about this? I don't remember that.
@@rytr0nious Resonant Fury Hunter set.
This is from the Mask:
"Today, you again gifted me purpose, my Witness. A rapturous day, by the old pattern, my fingers knitting finality once more. But now, this purpose is equivocal, serving not the glorious abyss. The race-the Ahslid, in their degenerate, clicking dialect-have never known the enemy's luminous caress, will never know that caress. They are unnecessary, destined to die in a paltry million years still orbiting the same blue-white star that gave them succor.
Irrelevant. And yet…
"Your presence shall raise no more concern than that of a speck of dust blown off course by a distant sun. And you shall bow this people to our service, just as we enlightened you. Your value shall be their value.""
I like the fight back option better
Another thing to note, what can be presumed to be Calus’s view of the final shape seems to be total extinction of life, based off of the chronicon, and knowing that Calus was a disciple leads to more uncertainty about the final shape, considering how different it is to Rhulk, Nezerac’s, and the Hive’s view of it
I'm honestly in the camp that Calus' view is correct, especially considering that it's the Witness' stated goal to end suffering. Suffering can only be ended in totality by exterminating all life.
And considering how a biosphere functions, yes, winnowing all that complexity down to a single life-form WILL end in extinction. The wolf does not exist independently of the deer, or the rabbit. Without them, the wolf can't survive. And without predators? The deer and rabbit destroy themselves. Predation is cruel, but it is not of the Darkness. Predation creates balance, allowing complexity to thrive.
A single "Final Shape" of the universe was never possible. Not unless it was of the Vex ;3
@TheSuperRatt and in every iteration in the flower game before this universe, it was the Vex.
They will be the final shape again
@@SymbioteMullet I've been saying that The Final Shape will be a Vex DLC since it was announced...
Other than a bit here and there in Shadowkeep and Beyond Light, the last Vex DLC was Curse of Osiris. That was a looong time ago.
@Zelious that's partly a writing issue, as the Vex have no face characters. We haven't had a vex flavour season since Splicer either, and that was nearly 2 years ago now. If we go by what their lore is, they're basically unstoppable anyway, they've got to be an utter headache to make good content for.
Chronicon was just fan fiction from the small mind of calus
the part at 7:46 when you realize the cell has disappeared was priceless
😂 yeah I laughed too!
The fact this unknown Disciple only references Savathûn, and not Oryx, indicates that Oryx - nor Xivu for that matter - were not considered Disciples.
With the Darkness = mind stuff coming out that makes sense with Sav's trickery, but it could also perhaps imply that when Oryx communed with the Darkness and learned to Take, Oryx did not speak with the Witness, and may have actually spoken to the Winnower/true Darkness
The darkness isn’t a thinking thing, it’s just an energy and power like the light.
@@nemokrad2650but they’re referring to when Oryx in the Books of Sorrow communes with the Darkness. This was before much of the current lore existed, and thus we don’t know if this was a lie of some kind or misrepresentation, or if it implies another being besides the Witness
@@TheCBoysDotCom completely possible that he only spoke to the worm god and learned to take by defeating it. Just like guardians, wielding the darkness doesn't require one to commune directly to the witness. A firm understanding (for strand) or strength (for taken powers and stasis), is enough for one to wield it.
@@TheCBoysDotCom Books of Sorrow was written by Oryx, iirc, so by the "Darkness" he meant easily can be the Witness.
It was the Witness, the witch queen refer that he only borrowed the power of take from the witness.
"a being, long dead" and "living only to serve (blindly)" have also been ways in which our Guardians have been described
Absolutely. We guardians are dead. But the recent chatter with all the city citizens talking about only having one life to live makes it seems like the current destiny writers have forgotten that we are not alive
@@zealobiron Citizens only have one life to live, and both in the new campaign and season we've mainly interacted with people who also only have one life, to me it feels like its okay for them to talk about that stuff... Unless i understood your point wrong?
@@Marin117. it implies that we have multiple lives when we are not alive at all
@@zealobiron Ah got it, but i don't think that's what they're trying to imply? And in a way lightbearers do have multiple shots at living, unlike civilians and other characters, it makes sense that they talk about it.
@marincxvii but we're not alive. We don't need food. Sleep. Love or compassion. We only need an assignment. Which also makes me dislike all the emotion and relationships that guardians have now. It bothered me that the citizens of the city say that like we guardians are the lucky ones. Our lives are over. Sure there's plenty to be proud of to save those that can't do it themselves. But I always thought we guardians look at the living with a sense of longing. Knowing that no matter what the outcome of this war that we have been revitalized to be a part of, we will never be ALIVE again.
Lore Daddy on fire the last few days. Thanks again for all you do in the community Byf. Never miss a video.
The use of O Witness has me wondering if it could possibly be an Ahamkhara... doubly so with how inquisitive and independently thinking this lore tab is.
Maybe, but it's definitely out of typical Ahamkara pattern by dropping the "mine" from "O/Oh mine".
It isn't unusual for Disciples to use "My Witness" when addressing them. So if this was the case why not "O Witness mine" which is the usual way Ahamkhara address people? It just seems more like general reverence to me.
Could be a subtle Worf Effect. If we assume that the disciple in this lore book really is an Ahamkara: first of all, that's terrifying, because Riven's power level was kind of ridiculous from a lore perspective (her encounter isn't that hard, but it's also probable that she let us kill her), and she was just a Taken Ahamkara, so the idea of an Ahamkara Disciple is a whole 'nother level of power scaling. Second, and the reason I invoke Worf Effect here, is that considering the reason Ahamkara use the "O whatever mine" shibboleth so much (which I forget the exact explanation offhand but there's lore behind that phrase), the fact that this hypothetical Ahamkara Disciple *knows better than to try to pull that on the Witness* speaks volumes again as to how threatening the Witness is.
@@life-destiny1196 So just to answer two things here:
1) Riven did let us kill her, albeit in a roundabout way that made us 'wish' for it. Granting said wish is where she got the power to grant Savathun's wish, the Curse on the Dreaming City.
2) The 'O [subject] Mine' is used so often by the Ahamkara, and others besides, because it grants power over the subject you are addressing though I can't recall off-hand what exactly that entailed. My immediate assumption is that it is some sort of psychic suggestion to nudge the subject into doing what you want them to do, which in the Ahamkara's case would be to wish for things.
@@79bigcat It's possible that the Ahamkara is fulfilling a wish of obedience and servitude, in which case the 'mine' would conflict with that, as it is typically used by Ahamkara to assert a level of ownership over the one who makes the wish.
the reference to plato’s cave and the idea of them being an assassin makes me wonder if this disciple could be a human, possibly a double agent working amongst guardians to maintain their cover
or maybe taniks
I was thinking that also. To me it sounds like he is describing guardians.
The Speaker?
Dredgen yor. His ghost is still out there
Drifter
"I am only your violence"
This sentence is telling to me. It tells me that the writer does not consider themselves something as specific as an assassin. It considers itself a weapon, certainly, but not a hidden one. With the introspection and calm they show I am reminded of the romantic image of a samurai. Loyal beyond their own doubt and ruthlessly brutal when unleashed.
It also tells me that Disciples seem to embody some specific service to the Witness. Calus claimed himself the Herald. This unknown Disciple was the "violence". Rhulk seemed a majordomo of sorts. And then there is Nezarec, not sure about him. Perhaps a spy? A saboteur? It all seems a little odd though as the question of why remains. Why have disciples at all? What purpose do they werve for the Witness. In many ways they seem expendable (I am convinced that Calus was made a Disciple at least partly to lure us in). Something is not adding up with the Witness.
100% it’s seems every one of them has a deeper purpose that to just be soldiers
It's gonna be yul the honest worm
Maybe the final Disciple is the friends we made along the way?
Can we even be sure that the Witness Himself, 'knows' what the Final Shape is meant to be?
Seeing that the witness has been chasing the Traveller for who knows how long and has not once obtained the final shape, no? I mean the witness had to get the Idea from somewhere. So maybe the final shape is theory it’s trying to prove.
The ultimate plot twist:
Remember how the war between the Witness and the Traveler started long before even Rhulk? Who was billions of years old by this point?
How old is the Witness? Way older, far far older.
But has the war between Light and Dark gone even before the Witness?
And if so, what were the rules of that prior war?
I'm going to be bold and say the Witness was influenced by an even older entity who viewed the Light and Dark as Freedom and Control, and the final shape is control over freedom. This entity sought to be the control over freedom.
However it did not seek it for some incredibly divine reason, unlike it's siblings who fought for the right and wrong reasons. This entity sought control over freedom for it's own purposes.
And it cultivated a spiteful failsafe. If it couldn't win it's war, and gain control over freedom, then no one will have control or freedom. And hence created the lie of the final shape, that in the end nothing shall exist, and hence true peace shall be made. But really, it serves no purpose whatsoever and is only used to spite the other spirits and destroy their precious garden they worked so hard to cultivate.
It spoke to the Witness, many lost peoples who wandered the cosmos searching for answers.
It gave them purpose, purpose in dark natures.
And in the end of it's influence, the many peoples under it's influence became one being, with many persons (Think of how God is three persons but one God type of thing), and they had a but load of power.
And they became the spiteful failsafe. If this one entity couldn't get what it wants, then everyone will die at the hands of the Witness.
Now presently, this entity hasn't lost.
And in fact hides among us.
Where?
Not as a person on the streets.
It has not possessed anyone in the elect. Not at all.
It resides within the Traveler.
It snuck in at one point, and enslaved the entity behind the Traveler.
And has been manipulating it to serve it's final purpose through it's own actions.
If it is stopped, the Witness will achieve the final shape. If it wins, it will emerge and take both the Witness and the Traveler, and combine them into one, and merge them both with it.
And will then proceed to enslave the universe to it's logic, control over freedom.
It could have been stopped long ago, but no one saw it coming. And still, no one sees it coming. And it will win.
it is Oreos in vex milk 🥛
If we take the Witness to be the Winnower from the Unveiling lore book. Then it knows about the final shape and what the pattern for it looks like, as the flower game in the garden before our universe always ended with a dominant pattern and Final Shape at the end of each "round" of the game
@@donweiss2326 Hold on I think you’re misinterpreting. That “pattern” was just the Vex. The Vex are the ultimate pinnacle of life in a universe without Paracausality, and no matter how many rounds were played the Vex always won until the paracausals entered the game
Something I noticed after the Lightfall campaign is that the triangle the Witness carved into the Traveler looks suspiciously like the entrance to the Infinite Forest. Given that the Vex were also trying to simulate the Veil in the Black Garden, were they also trying to simulate what the Witness did to the Traveler?
Nezarec may be less of a defector and more like that one annoying member of your fireteam that knows what to do but just don't want to do it and prefers to do his thing his way, which breaks a raid encounter run. His psionic ability is immense, being able to infiltrate into minds, torturing and getting information with no effort is crazy. But then again, his vibe is he love to torment. He doesn't care about the outcome. Only the fear, pain, and nightmare is what he wants. Thus, that's his sin and thus he was being punished for it. You didn't do your job, Nezarec, and you have the audacity to ask the guardians why you are being punished for "doing your job"?
Its what is bound to happen when a bunch of powerful bad dudes all team up together. They always have their own egos and motives. Although Rhulk was arrogant he seemed very subserviant to the Witness where as Nezarec seemed like he just enjoyed the power he got from him.
Nezarec is the guy that eager edge's you off cliffs and into walls
@@eliaspanayi3465 serve him right for getting kicked off the witness's fireteam
The first sentence kinda describes the drifter lmao
To the Witness the Final Shape may either be the end of existence or freedom from the revised Flower Game or both. But I think the true Final Shape is the Player Guardian, a being using both Light and Dark to shape reality to their whim and stand supreme in their universe. It's our Guardian's Destiny.
Title drop
HE SAID IT. HE SAID THE THING!
I think the Witness is the winner of the Flowers game, every Flowers Game all merged in to one being (Hence the multiple head thing). I think the Witness wants to be the final shape in every possible universe. The Veil, i believe, is the gateway that once someone passes through it is the official end of the game. If someone passes through and there is no one left capable of winning, the flowers game ends. Only the game didn't end which means some other pattern is capable of winning the game.
But the Awoken are if both light and dark too
@@MichAllen yes, they play into the theme of Destiny: Balance. BUt it is the Player Guardian who has shaped reality the most via god slaying and other plot formations via the powers of Light and Dark...but so has Mara. Ultimately I feel it's the Player Guardian's Destiny to become or create the Final Shape with Mara being a close contender. To defeat the Witness and reset the Flower Game to the bipartisan likings of both the Winnower and Gardner and I feel the Vex will become the ultimate enemy via their own forced proposal of a Final Shape bleak of finite vibrancy in favor of rigid patterns.
Honestly i love the idea of the witness just conning the disciples in order to get their help
I suspect that the Witness brought a Disciple or two into the portal with it when we see three ships get pulled in. Maybe one of them is this unknown figure who could be close to the Witness when it comes to achieving their grand plan of the Final Shape.
In the Jisu Calerondo report, they say scientests are investigating the alien structure created "from the remains of the traveler" and the link is created between the Veil and the Travelers "pale heart". Does this not imply that what we call 'the Traveler' is not the the whole of the Traveler but is instead just its "pale heart"?
I assumed that the "complete" traveller included the pyramid ships and the the white sphere was indeed, the pale heart. Which makes sense in that part of it it black but the centre (or heart) is pale.
Bruh
The pale heart is the source of light in the Traveler. That much is blatantly obvious from how the witness had to cut into the Traveler to use it to open the portal.
Love how in the B-Roll Byf puts the orb down, kills some enemies and then looks for the orb only to realize it has de-spawned. Same thing has gotten me many times.
Byf, if you could read this I would greatly appreciate it. I believe that the traveler is the unnamed desciple . If we think back to the parasite mission dialogue, savathuns worm mentions that “the witness turned a violent gaze on traveller” this I think is worded in such a way that at one point the traveller served or was at the witness’s side. I don’t have much else behind this but I could possibly say that the traveller may have realised the final shape may have resulted in the deaths of billions so it took the source of the light or destroyed all other sources and ran so that the witness could never achieve her plans. Created guardians in the hope of being protected and stopping the witness.
Also the desciple being aware it is a weapon that needs a vessel to construct and use its power fits quite nicely into the traveller doing nothing , but the power it holds as a “weapon” being the light cannot be used effectively by itself. (Though it has used some attacks or bursts in the time it has been on earth , it seems to really strain the traveller as it doesn’t do them very often)
At this point I think that the final shape is the assurance of the impossibility of all kinds of life forms and all forms of being.
The disciples seems like an elegant and efficient way to use the worst that life has to offer as an tools to accomplish a goal, prove a point and deliver poetic punishment to life itself.
I've returned to Destiny for about a year now, and I can't express how much your videos are important for my perception of this game. Your work with Martin is ASTONISHING! Seriously, I love this game, but you bring a flavor to it that is so essential. I'm so thankful for that.
I'm a french canadian, so pardon my difficulty to express my thougt in english clearly. The witness and his Disciples are almost all about sword logic right? Then, why do they operate according to the bomb logic? They work as a team to reach the final shape, which is paradoxal with their own philosophy. Each Disciple is a being of immense paracausal power, yet they were assembled by the witness to seak his ending. The same could be said for Oryx : the king drawed power from his army, his lieutenants and his worm, but he devoted his life to the sword logic. Maybe you have already talked about this in a previous video, but your two last publishings made me think that worshiping a philosophy doesn't mean that you can truly abide to it solely. Maybe you have to navigate through both to reach your true goal, just like you have to wield Darkness and the light to reach your destiny.
So the Sword Logic is specifically the Hive's variation/misunderstanding of what the Witness actually believes. I think it was probably the worm gods that told them that was how the world worked. Our best understanding of the philosophy behind Darkness is outlined in the lore book Unveiling, which is essentially the Destiny universe's creation myth.
The author of that book, "the Winnower," who may or may not be the Witness, worked together with another character called "the Gardener" to create a bunch of universes by playing Conway's Game of Life over and over. Over time the Gardener became annoyed that every game they played eventually achieved the same result every time, in that one shape seemed to consistently dominate the universe every single time (heavily implied to be the Vex). The Winnower, on the other hand, thought it was really cool. The two had a fight, resulting in a much messier and more chaotic universe than usual, which is the universe Destiny takes place in.
Paracausal power is essentially the result of the inadvertent interference the Gardener and Winnower put into this universe: respectively, the Light and the Darkness. (There are also probably some other sources of paracausality besides those two; it's likely that the Ahamkara are an example of a paracausal force that isn't Light or Dark in nature.) The big question behind all of this is whether the Gardener's philosophy of constant growth and complexification or the Winnower's philosophy of constant simplification will win out in this iteration of the universe.
Essentially, whether they are the same person or not, the Witness appears to want to hasten a Winnower victory, which is to say, it wants the universe to reach some sort of end state that no longer changes. This is where the phrase "the Final Shape" comes from: it's the shape that eventually comes to dominate the game the Gardener and Winnower play to create the universe every time. Whether it wants to do this by empowering the Vex specifically or it has some other "shape" in mind is not really clear at this time.
The Sword Logic is essentially a philosophy the Hive and/or worm gods came up with that takes the Winnower's philosophy and chooses to enforce it with extreme violence. Their conception of the Final Shape is that it can be reached by removing from existence everything that can possibly be removed. If you can be killed, it is because you were too weak to continue enforcing your own existence.
Maybe the witness knows that if he gives one distinct definition for the final shape, and if that definition isn’t very well liked among his disciples (say, everything but him must die), that’ll probably lead quite a lot of mutiny in the black fleet. Furthermore, by allowing each disciple to formulate and believe their own idea for what the final shape is that would most likely benefit them (like how most of them think it’ll be only themselves and the witness at the end of the universe), and perhaps by disallowing communication between disciples, the witness could easily keep his enormous army fighting for him, only for him to turn on them once the pesky traveler is dealt with.
LOOK AT THE MURALS IN THE BACK OF THE BOSS ROOM IN THE NO TIME LEFT MISSION OF LIGHTFALL
I screenshot them yesterday with the intention of studying them. Definitely interesting stuff
It just shows how they interpret the early lightbearers and warlords but all fancy like from what I can tell.
This topic needs to be further elaborated on - I feel like there's alot of deliberate iconography in those murals that is probably important.
It would be interesting if it turns out to be Uun, the last of the Ahslid.
That would be pretty interesting to be fair. Uun would be a fitting individual to be the Witness's weapon or violence, since basically all he knows is violence and destruction at the hands of Rhulk
The what?
@@aceellis1660 A disciple Rhulk tried to influence/train. It’s in the Vow lorebook.
I'm not sure if Uun would have survived the Ashlid's demise.
I love this video. It breaks my heart to see the shadow legend commercial.
Perhaps we've been a disciple all along. We've basically helped the witness get to where it is.
I think the witness prefers they/them
@@thedpoy1141 I don't think* it "prefers" anything, lol.
re:pronouns, Bungie has pretty consistently used "it" for the Witness.
I like this as much as I liked the old theory (prior to Plunder which disconfirmed it) that the player character was Nezarec prior to their death and resurrection as a guardian. I think we're kinda due for a "the player character something something all along" reveal at some point.
@@life-destiny1196 we are the friends we made along the way
As Renthrexx noticed, each known/speculated Disciple represents one of the sins. Rhulk is Pride, Calus is Greed/Gluttony, Nezerac is Wraith, Eramis is Envy. If this is true, we got 3 Disciples left. Greed/Gluttony, Sloth, and Lust. I doubt a Sloth would write anything like this as I doubt Sloth would take confrontational action like asking WHAT the Final Shape is. Greed unlikely wrote this, as I doubt they'd be satisfied no answer to what the Final Shape is. Gluttony unlikely wrote this, as they wouldn't have peace is the moment and accept being nothing more than a tool of violence. Lust... Might've wrote this. Lecherous demons are known for trickery to seduce their prey, so these books could be nothing more than seedlings planted to lure us in. As Nezzy said, Guardians can't resist unanswered questions, or a challenge. If Bungie is going this route, I'd expect "Lust" to be the next Disciple we face. I know this interpretation of "Lust" isn't the classical portrayal of lechery, but considering how passionate Guardians can be about multifaceted things, this could be the way it goes. It'll use Crows grief for Amanda, our desire for answers, Caiatls hunger for war, and so on.
Sounds like what Xivu was doing in the 1st season of the deep mission ngl
They don't represent the sins. Rhulk doesn't represent pride. Eramis isn't a disciple
Byf, I'm curious what you think of Aztecross's latest video on the Veil? How each of these lore passages start with that same phrase "a data fragment marks its passing", and how he correlates it to the OXA machine and the possibility that the OXA machine and the veil are one and the same. It seemed to make sense in my head but I'm sure you could delve into it much deeper.
whoever this disciple is, they definitely give me devoted warrior vibes, like a cleric or paladin, but one who is starting to question their faith. I wouldn't rule xivu arath out so quick, but I do doubt it's her. It would be interesting if the Witnesses weapons is LITERALLY the Witnesses weapon though, like imagine the final fight between us and the witness and the witness uses a sentient weapon somewhat like a few of our own weapons, like xenophage, Darci, or whisper.
I think the idea of the final shape may draw back to what Osiris said in that the light controls aspects of our physical plane while dark our non physical I think it's that same with the traveler and the witness with the Travler being a terraformer it can control life to suit its purpose and make what it sees to be perfect and the same with the witness but it's final shape may be an idea achieved or a state of understanding reached not just for it but to all those that follow it hence the witness says the final shape will be perfect for everyone because it is an state of the mind not some paradise reached where the light doesn't exist
The hidden disciple sounds a bit like Thane in how they talk about their position of being the Witness's weapon. Thane would definitely not be following the Witness though.
Came here to say the same thing
Professor: today we are going to talk about Shakespeare… again.
Student: Byf uploaded!
Professor: nvm, we are talking about this hidden disciple and possibly the Final Shape!!!
You have just shattered some of my ideas but at the same time solidified what I used to believe what The Final Shape was and have now reinvigorated those ideas of what I believe is going on in game. You want your mind really blown? I wrote about Plato's Allegory of The Cave 6 years ago in a Reddit Post and it used to exist in game. On IO in The Cave of Ulan Tan there was a section where you would enter a room and The Vex would be kneeling like in the Black Garden and in that kneeling they were all staring at a Shadow cast from light on the Cave Wall. Only thing this the Shadow was static and it was in the silhouette of a man. This lore entry has just brought together years of research and hundreds of pages of notes. Thank You, Thank You Thank You
Ikora's vision at the remix of young Savathun showed that she was lied to. It's entirely possible, if a little unimaginative, that the Witness had told his disciples what they wanted to hear to get them to serve him. This still leaves the final shape a complete mystery, but it's plausible.
Also, I can totally see us getting a begrudged alliance with the hive and Savathun against the Witness, and if Oryx is alive? on Titan, then that could be at least a temporary truce with the Taken. We've already got Cabal and Fallen. Now we just need Asher Mir to convince the Vex that the witness is a threat to their survival.
Wait until Fanatic joins forces w/ Crow and brings the mini screebs! I could see him being w/ the invasion force inside the traveller if/when that happens
I read your tweet just as this went live!! :)
I just finished school and saw the notification
The transition into the RAID ad is hysterical to me
My theory is that the Witness is also tired of being a pawn in the Gardener/Winnower game and wants to get rid of them.
He speaks about It and the Traveler being both VICTIMS and perpetrators of the universe’s (G and W) infinite cruelty and if anything, he seems to pity the traveler more than anything.
So yeah, that whole wormhole thing to me is the Witness going where/when the gardener/Winnower are, to get rid of them and that will be the final shape.
We will probably stop him from the specifics of how he plans to do it (which would probably be more destructive than anything) but some sort of final shape where the universe is freed from their game/grasp will still happen, which is what will lead into the next chapter of Destiny (hopefully D3 starting mostly from scratch on a very changed universe)
The universe won’t be free it’ll be destroyed all at once when light and dark is destroyed there’s nothing left the final shape will be the end of the universe and that’s how they’ll reset for d3
@@bigounce8301 Woah went way off the rails at the end there
I get the feeling this is Mara Sov. The style, the contempt for the others and her personal circumstances (once dead), the fact she has interacted with the Witness and knows a lot plus her age because of the distributary etc...
Yeah, but shes not a disciple. Never was.
@@markricheard1870 that we know of. When Savathun's own worm calls her deception queen I wouldn't put this or worse past her.
Holy shit
Honestly not bad. I don't see any universe in which Mara Sov characterizes herself as a mere mindless weapon of something else, though. I do think it's probably a human, given the really specific reference to Plato here. Whether it's someone we've met already I'm not convinced about. The style is all wrong for it to be Drifter, but someone Drifter-adjacent would be my guess. He's been out of the system, something something tombs of nezarec, etc
I also think there's no way this is Clovis speaking, even though, let's be real, there's no way he doesn't end up working for the Witness by the end of all of this. In fact, wasn't it recently implied it was one of Nezarec's cult that told him how to use Darkness to make Exos?
One thing that stands out to me is the Witness’s line in Lightfall which DOES tell us a little bit about its goals- “We know pain. Our purpose is it’s end.” Still makes things even more confusing as this flies in the face of Nezarec’s goals of inflicting pain and torment.
Perhaps it’s a case of when immortals feel cursed by their purpose or immortality, or when they enjoy their purpose but would gladly seek and end to it, making the time to that purpose that much sweeter
Tolland kind of fits the description, and the way it's worded sounds like him. But wouldn't it be weird if it was him.
The Final Shape is Taniks with 5 Threshers strapped to his body.
Taniks the Resurrected Disciple Of The Witness
"...How little how enemies know." during that whole part of the video I was like. And what if even the witness does know what the final shape is. One of the reason he might not have guided his disciples through a specific aspect of the final shape could be that he is himself trying to figure out what it is.
At 10:55 how you described the Discipline as military like calling itself a weapon. Feels like Xivu Arath.
"Things have never been more mysterious than this moment..."
Here I stand to naysay.
WHAT IS THE VEIL?!?
Okay so I have a thought/question that has been popping into my head through all the recent videos and discussions about the 'Final Shape' and the Witness's plans:
If we assume that the Flower Game, Gardener, and Winnower concepts are a biased but accurate portrayal of history - then wouldn't the obvious goal of the Witness be to simply return to the old status quo?
If it's true that the Gardener/Traveler was the one who's discontent led to a conflict that created time, space, and reality - then it seems to follow that the Witness/Winnower would simply want to go back to the old order; phrased differently, "reset the clock" - which would seem a relevent concept if the story is about to dive into time-travel.
I like the idea that the log is all 1 person and the first few sentences are the person in question looking back and seeing that past part of their life where they worked for the witness as a different person. Similar to Vader and Anakin. Vader sees Anakin as a different person and often talks about how "Anakin died when Vader was born" and I'm wondering if this could be a similar situation with this new disciple.
Weapons win battles. Logistics win wars. Knowing what we do now i see paths to victory opening up.
I saw a comment on a video about savathuns question to our guardian. “Have you ever wondered why you can use both light and dark, while the rest of us are constrained to one”
And he made the point that this is because we are the subject of the final trial between the gardener and winnower. We have to have the ability to choose one or the other, or to choose our own destiny which includes both.
He also stated that WE are the final shape. Being the subject of the final trial, and having the ability to control light and dark, we GUARDIANS are the final shape.
Aka the final shape is the shape of the GUARDIAN. You have the mother morph the king morph, the knight morph and the guardian morph.
At least as far as I remember.
Not to mention it’s been hinted at that the final shape is death. But no detailed description is given, but if you consider the personification of death(aka the grim reaper), OUR GUARDIANS SHARE A NUMBER OF SIMILARITIES WITH THIS PERSONIFICATION.
“A delusion of a being long dead, with one goal to serve” while the one goal is not obvious? Our guardians are beings that are long dead, and are a bit delusional in the sense that we don’t fully understand everything that’s going on around us, yet we have a major part to play regardless, in fact we are the main act despite having the least information on the matter.
Also the witness is honing us into something that can’t be killed basically. The final shape in the eyes of the darkness would be a life form that does not wither, “the survival of the fittest” in a sense. And we are the fittest, the collapse was shedding away the fat, and leaving only the muscle and strength behind. The darkness is honing humanity into the ultimate lifeform that constantly overcomes adversity, but it’s constantly testing us to prove whether we are what it’s looking for.
The final shape. The life that will dominate the rest.
This Disciple is a weapon...
A weapon.... to surpass Metal Gear.
The contempt dripping off your tongue during the… one part was palpable
Disciple : Witness, I want you to explain what is the final shape
Witness: only for 60 dollars i can allow you to know what is the final shape, altho not even Bungie might know what the hell is this final shape.
Discple: what?
my spinfoil hat theory is its an ahamkara, being that Mara still has the egg, them being referred to a wish dragons and the line "there is a conflict in me, O Witness, that unsettles my weapon..." i haven't head many other beings in the universe talk in that way, and it kind of feels link they're interrogating the witness to find out what their "wish" is . could all just be head canon but id like to hear your thoughts
The final shape is likely something triangular since it’s it the most simple that a shape can be while still being a shape. Which would explains why everything the witness does is characterized by triangular shapes, the ships, the portal in the traveler, etc.
Honestly surprised that Plarium hasn't thrown six figures at Byf to make a R:SL lore video. They clearly have the marketing budget for it.
Honestly with Calus being considered a disciple, I'd say it's pretty fair to put the big three hive gods the same respect.
I think the answer is pretty obvious, even if it's not what you'd expect.
The Final Shape is only that which is necessary when all else is cut away. But now, the universe is paracausal, and perspective and subjective will can dominate what was absolute and objective. Fact of the matter is, the Final Shape can be interpreted in a hundred, a thousand, a billion different ways, and all of them *could* actually be true. Therefore, those interpretations need to compete themselves in order to prove that they were the Final Shape, and so one of them will inevitably win, but the only question that matters really is which one will.
That, or the Witness in seeking the end of all things is letting its Disciples imagine whatever perfect end goal they need to justify their allegiance, when in actuality it itself is lying by omission; the Final Shape is truly nothing, and therfore it doesn't need to uphold its end of the bargain when it wins because, well, there isn't a universe, Disciples, Light, Dark, Traveler or itself anymore. Isn't the first time it's lied to achieve its goal, right Savathun?
I like the theory that this hidden disciple is a literal weapon. Like a sentiment weapon that the witness wields.
I want to make fun of the Disciples like "bro doesn't even comprehend the final shape 😂"
Anyone else prefer him showing concept art and fan art in the background over gamepley? It makes it much easier to visualize the lore when you have something like that to reference.
Before the disciples there were many shapes. Crota was big boi. Oryx was really big boi. Atheon was machine boi. Taniks bowed to no kell.
With Rhulk we had Chad bod. With Nezarec we had dad bod.
What will the final body shape be? I must know Byf. Before it's too late for me to become that shape.
I would be surprised if the final shape was anything other than a triangle.
You should have wrote "Taniks bowed to no boi". To keep it consistent.
@@christopherm.1258 Unfortunately as my shape is not smart boi I can only be half clever.
For me, this is yet another example of the lore team's EXCELLENT retconning skills. It's no secret that Bungie have been changing the Destiny story as they go. Maybe their new direction requires a new understanding of the final shape. This entry by the lore team is auite possibly the smartest and most engaging way to retcon the current definition.
Lore team is the core team.👌🏾
I believe this is a memory of Rhulk, "A being long dead" could be him, long dead is quite a vague term. He was completely devoted to the Witness without question and the text reads in a way I find reminiscent of him too. Also, the "Sharp-edged data fragment" brings to mind his glaive, to me at least.
Rhulk is eluded to as another, separate being
Glad that RAID let you roast the characters. Makes the ad more interesting to hear haha
I'm glad Raid sponsors videos for everyone, but man I wish they'd cut down their ad reads a little.
Definitely didn’t even think about this nezarec and rhulk are both cruel but both in different ways one will cut down the weak while the other preys and feeds off the seals suffering
"Pain is kind of my jam" - Nezarec, Final God of Pain
A being long dead, that was reborn into servitude sounds a bit like our Guardian also. A lot of the story does revolve around them. No matter what happens, our Guardian is there. Ghost being linked to the Darkness? Was it because of our Guardian gained the ability? IIRC, besides Savathun our Guardian is the only Lightbearer connected with the Darkness.
I’ve not played since Season of the Drifter, but I always followed Byf’s lore videos. Kudos to you man.
I didn't know I needed sir Byf to explain Plato to me, but by god, is it glorious
This honestly sounds like a cop out for bungie to be more flexible with what the final shape is for future story.
Your content just keeps blowing my mind. Keep it up
"So what other sponsors do content creators get?"
Those few minecraft youtubers who are being sponsored by Morgan and Morgan a fucking lawfirm 💀
One way to interpret the allegory of the cave is that understanding of the truth cannot be shared, only experienced and that any attempt to do so will be rebuked, challenged and/or misinterpreted. So the Witness, who has seen the truth (or Witnessed it), allows his disciples to act and believe as they do because their view of the world won't change until they themselves witness the truth. It may be that the Disciples are selected because they are truth adjacent or near enough to the truth to question the shadows on the walls or the Witness selects them based on their willingness to do whatever is asked of them and bear enough power to actually see those aims through.
The second I heard cave and philosophy, I was shouting Plato. There was a reason I remember my AP English class. My teacher was very thorough in studying this piece of philosophy....I should have those old notes somewhere.
Nothing has ever lived that will not die. Toland has been teasing this since Forsaken in Mara's throne world.
This Disciple understood that it didn't understand but as it thought through, it realized, it's all part of the plan and to trust in the witness since even this is the witness' design. Maybe hes already seen the end so many times hell change it this time, the final time.
I'm getting a lord of the rings vibe from lightfall lore it's kinda reminds me of the ring wraiths if one decided to turn against Sauron
Very interested as to see just who wrote this book, we've already been told that we'll be seeing disciples across the next few seasons, but it's just struck me that the witness doesn't seem to have a "right hand" individual, we just assumed Rhulk was, as he was the first. What if we just haven't met them yet, just as we may not have seen the witness' true form, as hinted at in the scene where Calus questions the Witness, then begins to shake, stutter and bleed as he's englufed by a growing shadow
Here is a cool hidden detail that BYF needs to address. In forsaken right before Uldren shot cayde, Uldren's voice changed to the witness voice for a few seconds, but the voice was definitely not Uldren considering a few seconds later his voice is now back to his original voice and it sounds completely different from a few seconds ago.
Riven
@@christopherm.1258 Ah yes...I somehow forgot about Riven.... Damn is it just me, or do they sound similar?
I had thought it was Xivu cause she might be trying to separate herself from her traitorous sister.
The bit about the data spike makes me believe this is a passage from the OXA / OXTA.
Hearing Byf say the phase "beat the brakes off of Rhulk and Calus" was not on my 2023 bingo card
The final disciple is Activision. Calling it
after hearing your description of this disciple, i’m inclining to think they are akin to some sort of warrior poet. Just like how many warriors of the past also had some sort of philosophical musings, and it makes it more interesting as it what alien race this disciple might be or their accomplishments
this is personally my own self made theory, but from a lore perspective and based on our encounters with the darkness entirely(the fact we’re able to hone the darkness’ powers so easily and the Witness’s interest in us since Shadowkeep), what if we, the Guardian, are the secret disciple 🤔 again it’s my own imagination running wild with far fetched ideas
The hammer of a Carpenter doesn't need to know how to build the chair, it just needs to sink nails.
One thing that’s missing from the Disciple’s musings on the “shadows on the wall” is that in the original allegory, Plato was very clear that we should be critical of the people holding up the objects whose shadows were projected. They were not only complicit in obscuring the truth, they were solely responsible for it. Who else but the Witness can be responsible for these shadows, and will the Disciple come to the same conclusion that Plato did - that in order to perceive the truth of the Final Shape, they need to reject the Witness and seek the truth themselves?
The Traveler is the Disciple. Acting as a herald of the Witness. Then a change of heart.
Wasn't there some vex mind that was created in response to them first discoverig sword logic that had said they were the needle that would pierce, and become the final shape? The lone was something like that. I don't remember who it was tho...it was on a lore card I think. Maybe that is the "unknown" disciple. Also, oryx was a disciple that flat out said he was the final shape
I believe the Vex Mind you're thinking of was Quira and they were taken and then they got killed in Season of the Splicer
It sounds like some of what we are getting from the vagueness of this season. Particularly with the portal directly opened within the traveler we are prisoners in our own thoughts to interpret what lies beyond
Savathun: "The witness seeks to final shape, and the final shape is nothing"
Easiest guess is that it is xivu. Otherwise speculation would lead to an unknown ahamkara considering they're the only ones knows to be as cunning and use the "O ...... mine"
While currently playing the Mass Effect trilogy while watching the video on this unknown disciple’s lore: “He sounds like Thane Krios.”
I've been curious about that too. Why do the followers of the Witness have a difference in beliefs? Wasn't the Witness the one that guided them all? This is especially evident in the difference between Oryx and Rhulk. Oryx believes that the "Final Shape" is to be among the strong that cannot be defeated, beings that can overcome anything thrown at them. Yet, Rhulk seems to believe that all things must end, and he would gladly be the one to cut everything down.
If you look at them in a different point of view, Oryx believes he needs to be stronger and Rhulk believes that he's already the strongest. The Witness could easily fix all these differences, yet it didn't. That's why I strongly believe that the Witness are simply using every single one of its followers. It says it wishes to end Pain, yet it allows someone like Nezarec to be a disciple. If I were to describe the Witness right now, I'd say it is;
"A voice that tells you exactly what you wish to hear. Like something that offers false comfort by telling you that you are correct"