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Another thing to point out is dual wielding only gets extra dice from either symbiotic entity/colossus slayer or aura of hate as far as class features go that apply to both attacks. Meaning if you’re not playing a ranger 1 fighter is the best way to acquire two weapon fighting.
note about the auto dual wield toggle: if you keep it on, and get an attack of opportunity, you will strike your target with both weapons, so its actually better to have it always on and strike with the offhand first if you want to split your attacks
Yeah I never see anyone mention this in their Dual Wielding vids for some reason. Playing with a controller I didn't even realise I COULD toggle dual wield attacks off for my first four playthroughs (the toggle is hidden in the inventory screen), so I was always doing offhand attacks first with dual wield toggle on already, then when I finally learned controllers CAN toggle it I quickly realised you lose half your opportunity attack and went back to keeping it always on anyway.
Something people don't talk about enough for lower levels is weapon oils. Simple Toxins are everywhere in Act 1, and can be made relatively easily, and purchased for cheap from a bunch of vendors. That extra 1d4 damage will coat BOTH weapons when using the bottle. There's a handful of better poisons you can use, too. It is extremely good through Act 1. Obviously it tapers off a bit as you get further into the game, but it gets glossed over by people doing these calculations.
@@formatomi poison applies the toxins to BOTH weapons, so no. Only on the turn you apply it would you be losing out, every round after it's much better dual wielding
@@srsgoblin yeah but the poison it's not a flat 1d4 damage, you inflict poison on the enemies and then they save against the poison, so realistically the only time it would be useful is if you attack 2 enemies in one turn
Issues: 1. Hit Chance: needs to be included in the damage model. 2. Rounding: This is not the place to do it. 4d6 averages 14, not 12 as you suggest. The more dice added, the more inaccurate the math becomes. 3. Savage Attack: Needs to be included for DW builds, if you're including GWM for 2H. Since it adds ~1 per dice (depending on the specific die), and DW's roll a lot of dice. 4. Strength based DW: Can use non-piercing weapons with d10 range, and will get a higher stat based damage bonus, assuming you're using strength elixirs. Assassin may outperform Thief here. 5. Overkill: any damage greater than the life of the target, isn't damage. This is hard to model. 6. Poisons/Damage Riders/Status Effects: In order of difficulty to include in the damage model. 7. Crit Chance: Damage numbers should also be weighted by crit chance. That Gloomstalker will be near it's max possible damage output much more often than that Fighter will be.
Generally any damage calculation that does not include AC is pretty useless imo. Considering that you have to use something like risky ring or reckless attack to make GWM stick in honor mode...
Yeah, Two handers arent even comparable to dual wielding. The monk is an even greater example of this as I havent found anything that tops unarmed open hand tavern brawler monk in damage, especially if you multiclass with thief and fighter. Personally I only go for single class builds (I just feel multiclassing is janky in 5e and more so in BG3 with their homebrew). If you only play single class, it's hard to beat monk at all, both in single target and multi target damage, their only disadvantage being their range.
I've been dual wielding as an eldritch knight with the trident of the waves and the charge bound warhammer. Off hand hit applies wet, which doubles the damage of the lightning portion of the hammer for the next 3 swings. I also used drakethroat glaive to add a bit of cold to it as well
Did you level as that too? Been seriously considering dual wielding, not decided if I'd want to go eldritch knight main or try something else. Something very cool about being a spell blade but then also dual wielding.
@@saltydog7482 yeah unless doing honour mode though no need to minmax. Even tactician should be possible without fully minmaxing but definitely needs more understanding and better positioning etc. Appreciate it and glad you enjoyed :)
One thing that I always go back to is this: Great weapons always have their full damage potential every turn. It still keeps the ability to use bonus actions like potions or jumping. In order for duel wielding to keep up, you need to commit three levels into rogue for thief AND always use your bonus actions to attack. Damage drops off a lot if you need to use a bonus action for something other than attacking.
So much this. So far I've only seen one melee damage that gets even close to basic 2h and that's TB unarmed. But then you get those specialized 2h builds like war cleric to turn THEIR bonus action to damage XD.
I think this assessment is correct, but also the duel wielder is paying for greater flexibility with lower damage potential. Those 3 levels in rogue mean more skills, being able to reliably stealth, having higher damage on ranged weapons if you can’t close distance and being able to use 2 bonus actions for a lot of other options if attacking isn’t the best choice on a given turn. That flexibility for lower damage is part of the trade when deciding which route to go.
@@madhatter631 Still.. the 2h can also take those same 3 levels of rogue... and grab cleric (for 3 charges per long rest) or great weapon master (extra attack on bonus action following crit/kills). Then they don't "choose" dmg or versatility they get BOTH at all times. A lot of my melee front line builds have thief solely due to what deft hands and cunning action allows. Now if sneak attack wasn't limited to once per turn... this could skew things more to favor DW but that's not the case.
@@bartofii yeah I think this is a fair point. I feel (emphasis on feel since I haven’t really thought through all the implications) like to get that utility you need higher dex, which doesn’t fit so well with a two-handed build in my mind. But then again, there are a lot of cheeky ways and gear to get a high dex even when it’s dumped. So yeah, I think I agree with you.
@@madhatter631 actually it's less about cheesing the dex stat up and more about how easy it is to get baseline 20+ str either through potions or other options and the fact that you don't need that much of a positive score to still keep offensive options usable. str users can still get the titanstrike bow and use their str in BG3 on ranged attacks as well.
The damage itself is rounded down so he would have to choose a spot where to round down, but I agree with you! He also completely glossed over maximum damage riders, which favors dual wielding... Just by using the "common" riders, a melee striker adds 3d4 to their attack damage, a GWM only adds it twice (6d4), however a dual wielder adds it four times (12d4), this die difference on average would add 8 damage, closing the gap with GWM...
@@bir6nard4 Exactly - when working with statistics for average dice rolls you can't round your results until you get to your final answer. 12 and 13 are completely different answers to a question depending on when you round your results and the real world outcomes don't round results. I say "real world" as this concept doesn't only apply to computer games.
Savage attacker. Can’t really compare a feat (great weapon master) against a dual wielder without savage attacker rerolling all of the damage dice on your attacks. In my experience, the ability to stack more re-rolled damaged dice on my dual wielding savage attacker builds outpaced great weapon masters
Paladin with Savage attacker and Great Weapon Master will get 3 attacks/round - 2 main action and 1 bonus action and reroll all his smite damages giving him much more damage than dual wielding.
Just get bhaal armor and equip a spear u hit for 40-60 and crit for 70 to 90 as knight. Spear does piercing and and can benefit from great weapon mastery bonus dmg.
STELLAR video btw!! I rarely see overkill considered. The estimated value of 'Damage per attack' increases nonlinearly (diminishing returns), countered by the increasing value of inflicting the Dead condition sooner. Still, I NEVER see any mention of overkill.
@@Solrex_the_Sun_King I wrote a separate post but my issue is with him making note to mention the -5 to attack and then later when he's doing the math he ignores that as any kind of issue to take into account even thoough it's a serious deficit to the actual damage that the two handed fighter is going to deal and it is not completely made up by having advantage on the attack.
Wowza. Literally had the thought last night, “I think my dual wield melee build kinda sucks compared to my 2 handers”, and you sir have answered my question beautifully. Thank you!
I'm playing a Gith Ranger/Thief and yes, Lae'zel out damages me ALL the time, but I mean she should cause she has a Silver Sword and is my love lol. But sneak attack from ranged with two hand crossbows is also nothing to sneeze at, I may not do as much damage as Lae'zel but I can use tons of magical arrows to really change that factor. I think the magical arrow really change the whole idea of two weapon fighting cause I can even heal a condition.
The difference is exacerbated by the fact the all of the best melee weapons are great swords (Silver Sword and Balduran's) and all of the best bows are longbows (Titan String, Gontr Mael, Dead Shot), by a really wide margin.
Yeah ranged is superior is you take oils + arrows into consideration. Use the combustion oil, something like the helldusk gloves for fire dmg, and arrow of many targets, and you’ll coat and blow up large groups with single attacks
@@garyco766Most all people who run a dual wield build are going to run a Ranger, which is going to give you martial weapons (including longbows) already, so that's kind of a mute point. Ranger also gives you plenty of versatility in your build. You can be a high-Dex, dagger+shortsword wielder with Deadshot, sneaking around critting on 17's and above, or a strength-based Ranger Knight dual-wielding longswords wearing heavy armor, using the Titanstring. I've done both. The Knight is especially fun, because once you hit Act 3 you can have great AC (mine had 24ac after a quick trip to Dammon for Armor of Persistence and snagging the Helm of Balduran) and plenty of damage riders to supplement the weapons, with a great bow to boot. It's still not going to out-damage a pure 2H build with Balduran's greatsword and all that stuff, but I'd argue it's just as fun if not more so to play something like that. And to be honest, unless you're playing honor mode, it's kinda not even necessary to be having a debate over which does more damage, because both styles are viable. Only thing that matters is the enjoyment you get out of it really.
@@AgentFrostyyeah just playing on balanced I found that my Paladin could deal a ridiculous amount of damage, especially with divine favor, helldusk gloves, and smites. If I smote an enemy twice with balduran’s greatsword I swear I was doing around 100 damage in a turn sometimes. I think I had a ring for +2 poison damage and amulet that gives 1d6 poison after being healed? Something like that. But man my Paladin was a fucking beefcake. More than once my party would fall, but my Paladin was so strong he could wipe the rest of a room. Notably that Shar Temple in the city lmao
So for what it's worth, I usually have someone dual weilding the finesse longswords, Latharan's Wrath and Phalar Aluve. Because being able to not bother with strength, and go all in on dex, is *phenominal* with a pair of D8's.
The only problem with this is elixirs exist so a 2h build could go all in on dex as well. Or they could just use a finesse longsword. Or just take a one level dip in monk and use any non-2h or heavy weapon as a dex weapon.
With the 2 handed style to further the chances of bonus action attacks, a 1 level dip into war cleric gives 4 bonus action attacks per long rest. A fighter can be respected to benefit greatly from this, at level 6 Fighter5/Cleric1 then swapping back to pure fighter at 11 then at 12 grab the Cleric1 again, you lose a feat but get greater consistency with bonus action attacks as you get 3 great weapon chances to proc (at level 6 it's 2 GW chances) with 4 war charges for a guarantee
I feel like something that isn't properly compared here is damage riders. Any items or conditions that apply on hit (such as, arcane synergy or arcane charge) are applied an extra time on TWF compared to 2H which can massively boost the damage (even without crits) comparison as the massive contribution from GWM is no longer such a big number.
Given that GWM is effectively giving you a +30 to damage per turn, you have to stack a lot of extra damage die to match it. Not impossible, but requires very specific items.
@@andrewcarter9649 Not really, Arcane charge is +4 damage per hit. So that’s easily +16 extra damage. You need more than one sure but it’s not super specific
@@andrewcarter9649 It also gives you a 25% worse chance to hit, so it isn't +30 at all. Not to mention you aren't getting 3 attacks every turn, only when you crit or kill something.
@@Kaiserland111Nobody makes a GWM build without using ways to mitigate the -5 to hit, at high levels having almost permanent advantage isn't hard and you should be looking at roughly a +15 to hit or more by late game anyway. Fighters get a 3rd attack at level 11, outside of Honor Mode 5 levels of Warlock gives you a 3rd attack from Improved Pact Weapon and the game itself gives you an incredible number of ways to gain an extra action. This is one of my problems with the 5th edition rule set, duel wielding tends to just get left behind in damage output against 2H weapons.
Great video, but I wanted to mention how an added benefit of dual wielding comes for Bard characters. College of swords bards only get access to duellist and Dual Wielding. At level 6 they gain the extra attack bonus as well! This is particularly good since they can use their bonus action to do “slashing flourish” allowing them to attack two targets in one attack, and being able to offhand attack leaves them able to use their action to cast spells. Combine it with Action surge or 3 levels of rogue for the extra BA And you end up with a really powerful main character build for both support and offense!!!
What should be mentioned is that if you have extra damage bonuses on gear, it closes the gap for you based off sheer number of attacks for dual wielding. If your attacks deal 1-4 fire damage per hit just off the broken helldusk gloves alone, that’s an average of 8 increased damage for the dual wielder and only 4 for the two hander with a situational 6. Poisoning/dipping weapons grants more value on dual wielding. Hunters mark and phalar aluve both buff dual wielding significantly more than two handed.
When the game came out and I learned ed that hand crossbows could be dual wielded I created a new character with that build in mind. Damn it is so overpowered.
This video is really well done! One minor critique would be the lack of mathematical inclusion of the -5 from GWM. All damage numbers for two handed weapons should be reduced by 25% to account for the -5. It's not a perfect fix, but it more closely reflects the difference in attack accuracy. I also didn't really understand the rounding down of numbers in your conversions. It had a much more significant negative effect on the dual wielding calculations. Two handed is way better in the tabletop game, but BG3 brought the two closer to parity with damage riders and crit reduction
Great video attempting to break it down. To be honest this is all very situational as bonus actions means a lot more than just damage. Mysty step closes gaps like non other and you can also hide, or dash using bonus action and then does not lose damage if you two handing. You also has orin dagger that applies vulnerability to pierce which doubles your dps if you dual wielding. Too many different variables. I try to play what feels fun for me at different stages of game and respec as I go. Thanks for the video and hope for more to come! Edit: also damage riders apply to both hand and you usually land more attacks if you dual wielding.
This was very good thank you. You kind of touched on it but the thing I like about the dual is the ability to mix and match damage types. I had a ranger that between all of his items was doing a lot of damage because it created kind of a cascade effect. I would not take it on everyone but for some builds that can not really take advantage of the two handed weapons it can be really good. The other issue is getting the right items to really make it sing.
I love dual wielding as an option to add more abilities or modifiers. Dual wielding staves as a wizard, dual wielding melee weapons for a ranged build can make a big difference.
Nice video, but chance to hit is something that should be accounted for in the math of average damage. You can use the avg ac of monsters per level available for the tabletop comapred to the +to hit you expect your build to have at any given lvl to determine this. Generally due to bounded accuracy this will come out to 55-65% chance to hit on avg. I have no idea if its been done but im sure the true avg ac of creature your expected to fight in act can be calculated for a more accurate view, but i doubt its far off from ~60% avg chance to hit. Adding this to avg dmg claculations allow you to see thay actually avg affect of the -5 +10 from GWM and SS, which is almost always an increase in avg dmg btw. You also dont consider Polearm master for the twohanders, which while it means using a 1d10 weapon instead of a 2d6, it also gives twohanders a consistent 1d4+str bonus action attack, that can also recive the -5 +10 of gwm. Meaning 3 attacks with the flat +10 to damage every round, its just sometimes the bonus attack will be a 1d10 instead of a 1d4. I also don't remember any mention of the opportunity cost of needing to use ur bonus action to get decent dmg at low levels. This hurts some builds more than others ofc.
9:55 ok that’s true. But! Counter point….. Unseen menace. A Two handed, extra reach, Piercing pike that has the effect that makes it passively invisible till you miss. Afterward’s it’s a normal pike for 2 rounds. But while invisible. You gain advantage on attack rolls along with reducing the number you need to crit from 20 to 19. While it’s weaker than other two handed weapons. It has two good effects attached to it, can be acquired pretty early from the crèche, has more reach than a normal two handed weapon, has rush attack for when someone is a little out of reach, and Brace. Meaning you can reroll even more dice for better damage numbers while having better chances to crit. Along with removing any and all forms of Disadvantage attack rolls till you miss for free without needing risky ring. And then comes its secret Tag team partner, the Bhalist armor from act 3. Yes you need to sacrifice an ear flying elephant for it. But the dude was a dick, so fuck him. Who cares about losing an elephant who glazes you for 5 seconds when you COULD have Advantage on attack rolls + free double damage on nearly everything?!
@@Kaiserland111i rolled my eyes as soon as he said dual wielding grants you double crits and less miss because two weapons. That is just a stupid way of looking at it
Great video. You hit the nail on the head where 2 handers provide more damage and dual wielders provide more flexibility. They're not comparable really and the optimum build for dual wielders is going dex build and then savage attacker for more consistent damage, along with the dual hand crossbows (sharpshooter). I generally prefer always having something to do with my bonus action and so prefer dual wielding. However, I would argue that Paladin and smites makes it more a level playing field between dual wielding and 2 handers as you then have a smite per weapon attack and so having 2 smites each time, with lets say a Bardadin build, makes the dual wielder much more competitive
I’m currently starting a dual wield paladin build for this, going 2pal/4thief/6sword bard. Get lots of spell slots, dual wield+savage attacker, 2 bonus actions, and flourishes as needed
@@figuures6098 yeah, I've wondered that myself. Think a lot of people go 4 fighter for Champion for critical, feat and action surge but I'd be interested to know how thief works. Depends of course if you want more higher lvl spells and then going more in Bard. Think Bardadin is the most flexible and effective build in the game personally...definitely when you factor in the OP gear that pairs with it
2 handers provide more flexibility cause of all the attacks you do, you get a spare bonus action, which you can use for defence or utility. Here in the video it is assumed extra bonus action thief is also used for attacks which means no defensive options for dual weilders. It's worse if you go dex cause 2 handers can just wear heavier armor but most Dual wielders have to wear light armour. Dual wielders are not competitive as they lack good feats IMO.
@@rickycool6083 Sorry, I'm confused by what you mean two handers being more flexible for having a spare bonus action. Being flexible means you ALWAYS have a use for whatever is at your disposal and having a weapon in both hands means you can always attack with bonus action or do anything else. That's more flexible!!! I'm also confused what you mean by dual wielders having to wear light armour. There are plenty of ways to be proficient with armour and weapons and most melee characters will choose at least 1 level of fighter and will have that
One thing that I think closes the gap a bit between 2h and dual wield is that the latter can just swap their off hand weapon more easily depending on the situation they are faced with in the middle of combat if there is something they want to achieve. For example, if they are against a caster that is about to hit the party HARD once their turn is over but is not confident they will be able to finish it off, equip the sussur dagger in off hand then stab it once or twice with bonus action. 2h cant do this as they then lose their action. Edit: Now that I think about it I suppose they can try to throw it but if they are not built for it the chances of success would be lower than the dual wielders.
Sussur dagger make target silenced only if target took melee strike from it. throw does not work, iirc. Spending two melee attacks to swap offhand weapon with one which deals less damage sounds unwise - essentially you trade full turn for one enemy's turn (which sometimes can do something usefull even silenced). It can help, but its rare to have a situation like that with OK party planning. I wanted to test silence with sussur dagger and throw it into Gale with my Karlach... Not only Gale wasnt silenced at all after being hit - but also dagger dissapeared for some odd reason. In Honor mode. Great.
greatweapon scales way better with extra attacks, haste, action surge, and/or bloodlust. unless we're talking about dual wielding deva's maces, or running aura of murder. even with aura of murder its still better to go with sharpshooter rather than dual wielding.
Overall, this was a great analysis. Just one point towards dual wielding is that they're often using finesse weapons and dex based characters are incredibly useful and dex is an important saving throw
Its kinda late game only but i have to remind you Bloodthirst gives Vunerabily to piercing dmg that if played correctly will overshine any 2h non smite weapon build. Great video, subscribed!
Spears are 2 handers and do piercing dmg, my orc knight hits foe 40-60 and crits for upwars to 80-90. +10 -5 hit chance becomes +20 -5 hit chance.. and if it crtis well.. 😂
I personally don't like Rogues as dual wielders. Most of their damage is based around Sneak Attacks, which you get once per turn. It's not a bad idea to dual wield early for the extra d6 of damage if you don't need to hide to get Sneak Attack. Once Sneak Attack dice get high enough, dual wielding is rather mediocre and takes too much investment for Rogues.
Thanks mate. I had 2 in Rogue and 8 in fighter so far but dual wielding; so think I’ll respec him. His main role was lock picking I don’t particularly like him as a character
As someone who is playing 5e at the same time - there is more to this. You calculated average damage "on hit", but not AVERAGE damage. Average damage is when you calculate chance to hit * average "on hit" + chance to crit * crit damage. Dual wielding is only a little worse in 5e (around 20%?), but in BG3 I guess that it can beat heavy weapons.
great breakdown !! What I encountered in BG3 is that the end game weapons are a 2h sword, 2 1h swords for dual wield, staff and shield for caster and a bow for a ranger. These best in slot in the end are so much better and thus you are pretty much forced into using all different weapon types. The game doesn't offer that many exotic/diverse weapons and you pretty much go from blue to legendary.
You got my sub cuz you analyzed damage breakdowns. I love seeing the min, avg, max graphs showing me exactly what I'm going to get if I take dual wielding over two handed. Reminds me of old Datto vids where he'd break down weapon damage on Destiny raid bosses. Anyway, loved the vid. I've been very interested in toying around with two weapon fighting on one of my next playthroughs. I respecc'd Astarion on my first playthrough into a fighter/rogue multiclass which was fun but I did it very late in the game and didn't use him much. Need to do a Tav dual wielder run.
It is REALLY fun in early game. I watched a vid on using it to make a gish tav and it has been great. Using up to 2 scrolls to cast spells and/or up to 2 bonus attacks with standard damage or to do maneuvers like dash, disengage, drink a potion, cast a spell that is a bonus action. All at level 1 after the resources are available at level 2! 😮💨
This discussion has so many layers. I.E., DEX is by FAR the best stat, so dual wield can lead to an overall better character just for dumping STR altogether. On the other hand, you can have 27 STR with a potion, or 23 just by equiping gloves by superlate game. Nowadays I either run a throw barbarian, a throw Eldricht Knight or a 2h Battlemaster - otherwise noone in my party runs STR based weapons. I usually still use one of those 3 during act 1 usually tough, because there are not enough finesse 1 handers and/or shields for the whole group.
There is one really good hand crossbow--the Ne'er Misser. It does force damage, which is incredible since almost nothing is immune or even resistant to it. Finding that second excellent hand crossbow is an issue, though.
3:30 but they would also get +2 damage from rage, alongside the resistances. Also they might be using reckless attack, making landing hits and crits more likely Regarding crit chances in the crits section, it's worth considering crit chances with advantage over two attacks, as GWM triggers on kills as well as crit hits. And yes, dual crossbow builds are probably the strongest dual wielding in the game. Great analysis
The solution to me seems to be: "Why not both?" Big ol' Fighter or Barbarian with a chunky two-handed weapon for BIG DAMAGE, then a two-weapon fighter to split damage as needed and potentially finish off multiple enemies. Then the rest as the party could be mage and healer or any other combo needed.
@@viniciusyugulis7278 that is logical, double up on barbarian bonus damage. I've been using a str-based heavy armor dual wielding beast master ranger but with high level crow darkness globes Im thinking Great Weapon Master
@@Badger3X somehow the bonus damage barbarians do in rage mode completely slipped my eyes and i got karlach to hammer away. But my first playthrough was on balanced mode and most fights lasted about 2-3 rounds at latest lvl 8+ but propably even lvl 5+ so i am not sure it would have made a big difference. I forgot to turn it on because GWM already used my bonus action on that turn and then i constantly went "oh.. that rage button looks so unused"
13:03 you really hit on where this makes sense, and that’s in build balance. I experimented with a lot of different class/subclass mixes but the overall party makeup that works the best for me is pretty consistently 1 damage caster, 1 buff/debuff caster, 1 2-handed battle tank, and 1 dual wielding crit/status inflicting melee.
I would love to give an honorable mention to one of the best Handcross bows in the game, the Ne'er Misser. Roah Moonglow sells it in Moonrise Towers and it's a +1 Hand Crossbow that does FORCE damage! The +10 damage from the Sharpshooter feat also gets converted to Force damage as well since it looks at the weapons damage type when determining the extra damage!
Something you forgot about is Polearm Master that is actually very strong but only when wielding "extra reach" type of weapon. To the ones that want to know about it: -When attacking with a glaive, halberd, quarterstaff, or spear, you can use a bonus action to attack with the butt of your weapon. -You can also make an Opportunity Attack when a target comes within range. This feat dont add damage or seems useful on the cover but it is very strong for the fact that if an enemy come too close to you he will be smacked also you have a bigger area of denial because of the "extra reach" combine with Opportunity Attack. You can even punish enemy that attempt to attack you but only if they were not in your melee range before their turn therefore an enemy who moves toward you will make the game ask if you want to use your reaction to do an Opportunity Attack making the opponent's turn not worthwhile. This feat can be combine with Great Weapon fighting and Great Weapon Master, making it even stronger. If you combine all of this with the Halberd of Vigilance not only you get the +10dmg from GWM but that halberd gives you advantage on your attack roll if it is an reaction. Mix that up with Fighter sub Battle Master or Martial Adept for the Riposte and you will become the "The more you fuck around, the more you gonna find out" guy since you can either punish someone closing in or punish someone who is already in your range and attacks you. This can be stacked with Sentinel too so you will basically smacked anyone that do remotely something near you. Anyway that is to show the vast versality of this feat.
Nice video. Also one important point is the increased armor of dual wielders which can easily be dex based. With full dex buffs you have a +6 dex modifier on top of the 17 of agile armor to a total of 23 AC just from one armor piece, something that 2 handed chars cannot even dream off…
as long as we're theorycrafting... you could start with 17dex and 8 str; ASI Dex, Auntie Ethel Dex, Mirror of loss Dex for 22 dex (+6), Armor of Agility... And Gauntlets of hill giant Strength for 23 strength (or elixir for 27 str), and wield a 2H while still having the dex benefits. And Balduran's Greatsword Doubles your Str Modifier to damage per swing. 2H chars can get similar AC to dual wielders
Yes! Hand crossbows are awesome! Finding something for advantage can be difficult though, they also have much lower range. The ne'er misser is my favorite hand crossbow, dealing all force damage. Three attacks from level 3 are still pretty OP, especially when you attach damage buffs such as wrath, enlarged, and dipped weapons. At lvl 5 two handed weapons come back into play with extra attack and haste. Level 8 gloomstalker thief is crazy powerful with how many attacks, especially with hand crossbows. Another fun build is the psychic assassin taking advantage of the shadow blade, invisibility cloak, and the resonance stone. Give up the extra bonus action to guarantee crits on surprised enemies. Can also chain starting combat again and again for that extra gloomstalker attack and more crits. Best in Act 3 when you can give most creatures vulnerability to psychic damage.
Was expecting a much deeper analysis, with hitting averages, especially since BG3 is a limited pool of targets, compared to all the DW vs 2H math that is already easily available from D&D
I'm currently doing a Two-Handed Rogue run. There are a few two-handed finess weapons in the game allowing you to use Sneak Attack. Together with the Assassin build of mostly having constant advantage, makes GWM incredibly useful.
The best "dual wield" build is actually without the fighting style, you just need Belm in your offhand and the bonus action attack uses your main hand weapon.
Well made video. Subscribed. Its the same with DOS2. Dual weilding is better in the early game but two handed is way better later on. The best use for dual weilding is for holding two stat sticks at the same time.
Amazing video. Also, specifically in BG3, there are A LOT of items that add small additional damage for each hit. Such as the necklace that gives each attack 1d6 acid damage to each attack. Also the sword from the underdark that gives 1d4 on each hit.
Dual Wielding has always been more of a "Stat Proc" fighting style than the Burst/Nova of the Two handed fighting style. You'll have more opportunities to proc a particular effect like poison etc. Using dual wielding than if you're using just a two handed weapon. All that being said, for the case of this game I prefer dueling and using the Duelist Perogative and Bhaalist Armor.
As oath of vengeance palladin you can get 10 turns of no drawback attack advantage for the cost of bonus action. This mitigates GWF penalty completely in later stages of the game. You can take it as guaranteed hit.
I've felt that the role of two weapon fighting in this game pairs well with mobile, where you stab multiple people instead of fighting a tank. So for example, if your 2H Fighter reduced an enemy to 6 HP, you're not using another 2H to deal 20 damage, with a fair chance of missing. The TWF character instead gets to finish off the enemy, and soften another target for other members to delete. I use this as well with Eldritch Knight to impose disadvantage for any control spell without losing out on melee damage or alternatively drop Eldritch Strike for Thief and have two attacks with my off -hand (such as casting Hold Person then using any off-hand weapon which benefits greatly from advantage or critical hits, such as Vicious Battleaxe).
Though you can also take a lvl as a war domain cleric, which guarantees 3 turns where you can use two hand attacks using bonus actions per long rest as well as access to bless and divine favour.
Also a note on the blade of the under mountain king. Apart from the improved critical, it also has the same effect as the great weapon fighting, but with all of your attacks. This would apply to extra damage on sneak attacks as well as on smites for a paladin. My best builds in Act 3 are dual wielders, but the offhand weapon is more for its buffs then actually attacking with it.
my party utilized both Dual-wielding and Two-Handed Fighting style, Lazel, and Astarion respectively shined respectively in their feats, Lazel in two-handed style, and Astarion in dual-wielding, both had ranged feat specialties for when melee was not available. Coverage is key in harder difficulties so adapt as needed and think on the fly everyone.
Will always just use what feels right. This is some extra nerdy min maxing, but good information to consider. In the end, everything comes together the way you piece the puzzle. Either you cheese and steal Raphael's armor, or you take actual care to up your AC and damage to premium levels. You go balls to the wall, or cautiously apply the pepper.
I'd love to see the potential dps calculations when chance to hit is factored in. Yes, you can mitigate it in some ways, but if you use those same ways without GWM, your hit chance is almost guaranteed. If I can hit four attacks (with advantage) with 99% chance to hit vs three stronger attacks with 75% chance, I think I'd take the four. Especially if, like you said, I'm building crit chance, then the damage potential is likely closer to two-handers.
I love the titan string bow for the fact that you can find gloves of dexterity. Go to withers dump dex pump your strength up and go be the Archer that makes Tiamat scared at night.
While this does focus on raw damage, it doesn't really explicitly note the fact that two-handed is more efficient damage-wise on a per action basis. You can attack more with dual wielding, utilizing bonus actions. However, if a character has other things they'd want to use their bonus action on, dual wielders are adversely affected for damage while two-handed characters are not. Great vid, though. Good explanations of the general maths involved.
That’s the problem I’m dealing with in my dual- wielding character right now. I’m spoiled for bonus actions and don’t have use for them, and wish I had another attack for more damage. But that is also because I had the chance to use those bonus actions for potions, to disengage, dash, and attack (often one’s that can’t recur in this encounter) already. Both fighting styles seem like all pros no cons. Great design.
I am skeptical of your decision to sometimes round down damage values. When dealing with a averages and probabilities, it is often pertinent to give a couple of digits past the decimal place. The average result of a D6 is 3.5, which is definitely and significantly enough higher than 3.0
There's a pair of gloves you can find in Act 2 that come with two weapon fighting. If you already have it, you could always respec when you get them, take a different fighting style, and then you'd have two different fighting styles you could use.
@@rookie2128 Not necessarily. It's +1 AC, +Dex or +Str to damage on off-hand weapons AND your second fighting style could be Defense (depending on the class that gained the fighting style in the first place) for another +1 AC, putting you equal to the AC you'd get from a basic shield as long as you're wearing at least light armor. Is it worth a glove slot compared to other options? Personal opinion, but for the sake of the video in a vacuum, it's worth noting.
im sorry but i think i dont understand what youre talking about? getting twf from the gloves means you can pickup a second fighting style... which the only one that we can make a use out of is defense for +1 AC. That is all that using those gloves allows us to gain over just taking twf from our class and using any other gloves (which btw could be wondrous gloves to just give us +1 AC directly)@@Badger3X
Its a well made Video, with great display of statics and well researched facts . The consideration of bonus effects is also well thought and good displayed . I just have 1 kinda problem with it, pls dont take it offensive im just more in need off an clarification. Out of my perspective you considered accurency in the earlie levels more as in the later levels for your calculation. I understand the point that you consider the attacker in advantage, but i dont feel like stats as AC and Hit bonis there considered int he right amount for the propobility for landing the attacks. As i sayed pls dont take it offensive, im from germany and my english is not so well maybe i missheard or missunderstood something. Still thx for the video.
Why include the extra 10 damage and assume every attack hits, instead consider the additional -25% hit chance (-5 attack roll), and calculate if one in every 4 attack misses? GW will probably still be ahead, but more inline with DW
I think DW wins every time because of how the game manages DRS (except on honor mode*)- if you search UA-cam for Ethan's video explaining how DRS works and account for two weapons vs one, I think it's pretty hard to beat having two weapons. That having been said, once you get this deep into the math of BG3 and start min/maxing around it, you pretty much break the game. There are tons of different ways to 1-shot enemies or break the AI. Basically, once you have a deep understanding of the game, you are deciding how hard you want the game to be for yourself, regardless of difficulty mode.
As someone who loves his Smite-Bard, the thing I like is that with Dual-Wielding I can be really efficient with my smites. Lv1 smite is 2d8, Lv2 smite is 3d8. So it is more 'economical' to use lower level smites for that extra 1d8 you get on top of the 1d8 per level. Handing out more attacks lets me overkill for less, making sure I have fuel left over to close out a fight gone south. Plus it is easier to judge how large of a smite I need once the enemy health gets lower. Also yes, fishing for crits. Smites love crits. And I love smite crits.
Hmm I would’ve liked to see the damage comps using dual hand xbows with two weapon fighting style and sharpshooter with a gloomstalker + thief multiclass. Pretty sure it clears melee builds and doesn’t require investment into 11 levels of fighter to get the third attack per action
Great video, thanks ! Currently I'm playing Dual Wielding and I thought of a way to deal tremendous damages! I'm lvl 10, 2 paladin / 8 bards, That way I have a lot of spell slots to cast smite ! Building crit, I often get the opportunity to cast smite up to level 5 and with the school of blades I'm able to have up to 5 attacks per turn with 80%-90% chance to hit on average. I'm not as consistent as a 2 hands weapon damage dealer but in difficult situations, I can unleash my full potential. (+ thanks to my bard level I have very convenient control spells)
War cleric or divination wizard is amazing with the greater weapon fighting feat. The ability to control what your party members roll basically negates the downside.
Grabbing two weapon fighting AND archery from multclassing Ranger and Fighter, and then grabbing thief make for the best Dual Hand Crossbow builds, combine with the Sharpshooter feat and getting dex to at least 20 🤌 just chefs kiss, especially for finishing off multiple low hp targets that are spread out across the battle. Not to mention the added utility of Scorching Rays and Magic missile from the hand crossbows
For my first complete playthrough i did a stalker build as you described with duel wielding hand crossbows and it was awesome. Had the archery attack style and sharpshooter as you described, but also had the bracers of duel wielding to get the damage modifier for duel wielding on my offhand crossbow as well.
Good vid, but if you're using dual wield you get to proc reverberation, radiating orb, arcane synergy more from the increased number of attacks. Increased stacks can be incredible to make hitting them easier, prone the enemy, decrease their chances to hit, provide spell saving throws etc. Debuffs wreck bosses in honor :)
The better way is to install mods that remove the extra attack as a bonus action and just allows you to make two attacks on your action. This is how it should work in TTRPG. Otherwise when the pervirable Marilith shows they to should be subject to the same bs rule set as the players. That is one attack on your action, and one as a bonus action and the rest just flail about menacingly. It's funny when you push back on this DMs arguments just melt away and all of the sudden players can attack twice on there action.
Extremely nice video, and you bring up most of the important points for the discussion, but just to add onto it some things you have missed: 1) You don't really talk about "% to hit" during the comparison, which obviously skews your damage numbers towards GWM/SS. For a better analysis you should actually take a "target AC" and see how the numbers change (by multiplying the average damage by the odds of hitting). You'll find out that GWM/SS is still better almost always, but there are cases where TWF actually emerges as being slightly better! At least, this is without any magic items and spells. 2) You talk about some ways to mitigate the -5 minus to GWM/SS, but you don't really talk about the best ways to counteract these maluses. The actual reason why they rise so far above anything else in the game (not considering something like a full resource paladin with auto-crit) is that the game just has a plethera of built-in ways make them practically irrelevant. Between the +3 bonus you will have in the late game, many ways to increase your base stats, a couple of really good spells that increase your attack rolls/decrease enemy AC, it's practically trivial to have 90-95% to hit even in the very last few fights of the game against all enemies. It's worth noting that the best ways to increase stats apply to strenght, not dexterity, but it's irrelevant because... 3) You reach the conclusion that dual crossbows is a really good option for people that want the best of both worlds, but you miss the fact that it's just straight up the best option. While it's true that you lack the sheer strenght of legendary items late in the game, the fact that you can make almost always at least 3 attacks in a turn with the +10 to damage PLUS you get the benefits of a shield and melee weapon you wield (which includes some extremely, EXTREMELY, good options) while using your ranged weapons, makes it the best without contender. It doesn't help that the best subclasses for this type of combat style, namely Ranger Gloomstalker and Fighter Battlemaster, are actually best used with ranged weapons because of many synergies.
Depends. Sword bard ranged slashing flourishes make longbows better than 2x crossbows pretty much all game long and hunter ranger volleys kind of invalidate 2x hand crossbow kits at level 11+.
Unfortunately it is indepth crazy wrong math since he rounded down averages all over the place. All those ".5" damage that he rounded down all over the place really add up, resulting massive difference in overall average especially when factoring in all the multiple attacks per round. I mean really, yes, you won't ever roll a "3.5" on a 1d6, it will be only ever be a whole number, not a fraction, but we are talking averages and averages have an exact value, as on average if you roll 2d6, your average will be a 7, not a 6 as he is calculating, and we are looking at a LOT of Xd6 rolls in many scenarios above, meaning that it is .5 off for each d6 (and .6 off for each d4, and .5 off for each d8, and .5 off for each d10, and .5 off for each d12.... it REALLY adds up to a LOT when you are rolling a lot of dice, which on 2 weapon character with all the various bonuses and buffs like the weapon burning, or in acid, etc., etc., really makes all the math flat out wrong).
Plus. It considering hit chance, in damage calculations, which is pretty fundamental when one has -5 to hit. Expectation will be that dual weird is better against high AC targets and two handed against low.
I have PTSD when it comes to this issue thanks to another game. In Final Fantasy 11, a MMO, this was a huge problem at one point that didn't get fixed for like half a year. It was so bad that classes that specialize in 2 handed weapons were told to dual wield if they wanted to get into a party.
Damage isn't always the deciding factor in harder fights. Status effects can end a fight just as effectively. Granted, you still need damage but Karlach, Minthara, or Lae'Zel usually has this covered. I'm personally a big fan of trip attacks and disarming attacks.
The description has links to my written reference guides for this video on Steam + Reddit, and my other video guides. It also has a FAQ and corrections section, feel free to drop a comment and I will add it to that section. Thank you for watching and I will see you next time!
Another thing to point out is dual wielding only gets extra dice from either symbiotic entity/colossus slayer or aura of hate as far as class features go that apply to both attacks. Meaning if you’re not playing a ranger 1 fighter is the best way to acquire two weapon fighting.
at a few points in the video the audio is rapidly switching between being Left centered and Right centered, which is disorienting.
@@thrackerzodfromdimensionon3882 Got my audio issues sorted out going forward. Thanks for the feedback ☺️
Great video! Can you drop the build you had for your dual wielded? Item and class levels and stats? That would be awesome to try out thank you!
Offhand does not add your modifier without the two weapon fighting style so the numbers are a bit off.
note about the auto dual wield toggle:
if you keep it on, and get an attack of opportunity, you will strike your target with both weapons, so its actually better to have it always on and strike with the offhand first if you want to split your attacks
This is good info - thanks!
You can just turn it off for your turn then turn it back on just before ending your turn
@@Spoonri not that simple unfortunately as if you spend your bonus action with it off the toggle becomes unavaiable for the rest of the turn
In that case, you don't to turn it off anyway, so that doesn't matter.@@rookie2128
Yeah I never see anyone mention this in their Dual Wielding vids for some reason.
Playing with a controller I didn't even realise I COULD toggle dual wield attacks off for my first four playthroughs (the toggle is hidden in the inventory screen), so I was always doing offhand attacks first with dual wield toggle on already, then when I finally learned controllers CAN toggle it I quickly realised you lose half your opportunity attack and went back to keeping it always on anyway.
The effort in showing all the visuals in an easy-to-process series of charts and graphs is top-tier.
Something people don't talk about enough for lower levels is weapon oils.
Simple Toxins are everywhere in Act 1, and can be made relatively easily, and purchased for cheap from a bunch of vendors. That extra 1d4 damage will coat BOTH weapons when using the bottle. There's a handful of better poisons you can use, too.
It is extremely good through Act 1. Obviously it tapers off a bit as you get further into the game, but it gets glossed over by people doing these calculations.
also you can drop a torch anytime before combat and tip your weapons in it adding a sleek 1d4 fire per weapon , this includes ranged
Intransigent hammer crits are slept on too.
If you use these in combat, two hander is better as your bonus action is still free
@@formatomi poison applies the toxins to BOTH weapons, so no. Only on the turn you apply it would you be losing out, every round after it's much better dual wielding
@@srsgoblin yeah but the poison it's not a flat 1d4 damage, you inflict poison on the enemies and then they save against the poison, so realistically the only time it would be useful is if you attack 2 enemies in one turn
Issues:
1. Hit Chance: needs to be included in the damage model.
2. Rounding: This is not the place to do it. 4d6 averages 14, not 12 as you suggest. The more dice added, the more inaccurate the math becomes.
3. Savage Attack: Needs to be included for DW builds, if you're including GWM for 2H. Since it adds ~1 per dice (depending on the specific die), and DW's roll a lot of dice.
4. Strength based DW: Can use non-piercing weapons with d10 range, and will get a higher stat based damage bonus, assuming you're using strength elixirs. Assassin may outperform Thief here.
5. Overkill: any damage greater than the life of the target, isn't damage. This is hard to model.
6. Poisons/Damage Riders/Status Effects: In order of difficulty to include in the damage model.
7. Crit Chance: Damage numbers should also be weighted by crit chance. That Gloomstalker will be near it's max possible damage output much more often than that Fighter will be.
Thank you. This comment is underrated!
Generally any damage calculation that does not include AC is pretty useless imo. Considering that you have to use something like risky ring or reckless attack to make GWM stick in honor mode...
@@Algim123 hold person/hold monster ?
I need to see thee numbers for both in worse case scenarios. I always rather hit for less than miss.
Yeah, Two handers arent even comparable to dual wielding. The monk is an even greater example of this as I havent found anything that tops unarmed open hand tavern brawler monk in damage, especially if you multiclass with thief and fighter. Personally I only go for single class builds (I just feel multiclassing is janky in 5e and more so in BG3 with their homebrew). If you only play single class, it's hard to beat monk at all, both in single target and multi target damage, their only disadvantage being their range.
I've been dual wielding as an eldritch knight with the trident of the waves and the charge bound warhammer. Off hand hit applies wet, which doubles the damage of the lightning portion of the hammer for the next 3 swings. I also used drakethroat glaive to add a bit of cold to it as well
Did you level as that too? Been seriously considering dual wielding, not decided if I'd want to go eldritch knight main or try something else.
Something very cool about being a spell blade but then also dual wielding.
@rathenn6959 yeah it worked fine all the way to the end for me. There's definitely stronger options, but it gets the job done and is quite fun to play
@@saltydog7482 yeah unless doing honour mode though no need to minmax. Even tactician should be possible without fully minmaxing but definitely needs more understanding and better positioning etc.
Appreciate it and glad you enjoyed :)
One thing that I always go back to is this: Great weapons always have their full damage potential every turn. It still keeps the ability to use bonus actions like potions or jumping. In order for duel wielding to keep up, you need to commit three levels into rogue for thief AND always use your bonus actions to attack. Damage drops off a lot if you need to use a bonus action for something other than attacking.
So much this. So far I've only seen one melee damage that gets even close to basic 2h and that's TB unarmed.
But then you get those specialized 2h builds like war cleric to turn THEIR bonus action to damage XD.
I think this assessment is correct, but also the duel wielder is paying for greater flexibility with lower damage potential. Those 3 levels in rogue mean more skills, being able to reliably stealth, having higher damage on ranged weapons if you can’t close distance and being able to use 2 bonus actions for a lot of other options if attacking isn’t the best choice on a given turn.
That flexibility for lower damage is part of the trade when deciding which route to go.
@@madhatter631 Still.. the 2h can also take those same 3 levels of rogue... and grab cleric (for 3 charges per long rest) or great weapon master (extra attack on bonus action following crit/kills). Then they don't "choose" dmg or versatility they get BOTH at all times.
A lot of my melee front line builds have thief solely due to what deft hands and cunning action allows. Now if sneak attack wasn't limited to once per turn... this could skew things more to favor DW but that's not the case.
@@bartofii yeah I think this is a fair point. I feel (emphasis on feel since I haven’t really thought through all the implications) like to get that utility you need higher dex, which doesn’t fit so well with a two-handed build in my mind.
But then again, there are a lot of cheeky ways and gear to get a high dex even when it’s dumped. So yeah, I think I agree with you.
@@madhatter631 actually it's less about cheesing the dex stat up and more about how easy it is to get baseline 20+ str either through potions or other options and the fact that you don't need that much of a positive score to still keep offensive options usable.
str users can still get the titanstrike bow and use their str in BG3 on ranged attacks as well.
When you compair average damages between 2 very close calculations... rounding down "for simplicity" is wild.
that is 11 damage 03:21 (read this 11.3) vs 12 (read this as 13 = 6.5 + 6.5). so he made it look closer than it was.
The damage itself is rounded down so he would have to choose a spot where to round down, but I agree with you! He also completely glossed over maximum damage riders, which favors dual wielding...
Just by using the "common" riders, a melee striker adds 3d4 to their attack damage, a GWM only adds it twice (6d4), however a dual wielder adds it four times (12d4), this die difference on average would add 8 damage, closing the gap with GWM...
@@bir6nard4 Exactly - when working with statistics for average dice rolls you can't round your results until you get to your final answer. 12 and 13 are completely different answers to a question depending on when you round your results and the real world outcomes don't round results.
I say "real world" as this concept doesn't only apply to computer games.
Savage attacker. Can’t really compare a feat (great weapon master) against a dual wielder without savage attacker rerolling all of the damage dice on your attacks. In my experience, the ability to stack more re-rolled damaged dice on my dual wielding savage attacker builds outpaced great weapon masters
Paladin with Savage attacker and Great Weapon Master will get 3 attacks/round - 2 main action and 1 bonus action and reroll all his smite damages giving him much more damage than dual wielding.
Just get bhaal armor and equip a spear u hit for 40-60 and crit for 70 to 90 as knight. Spear does piercing and and can benefit from great weapon mastery bonus dmg.
I always give Lae'Zel savage attacker too because why not.
i think you’re on the right track, statistical comparison on something can’t decipher easily is comfortable. hope to see more in the future.
STELLAR video btw!!
I rarely see overkill considered. The estimated value of 'Damage per attack' increases nonlinearly (diminishing returns), countered by the increasing value of inflicting the Dead condition sooner.
Still, I NEVER see any mention of overkill.
Not really because his rounding really took me out of it, making me do the math myself and no longer being able to trust the video.
@@Solrex_the_Sun_King the rounding really showed how bad all his math is
@ exactly like what the heck?
@ if there was a button for reporting for misinformation for the video, not just comments, I'd tap it
@@Solrex_the_Sun_King I wrote a separate post but my issue is with him making note to mention the -5 to attack and then later when he's doing the math he ignores that as any kind of issue to take into account even thoough it's a serious deficit to the actual damage that the two handed fighter is going to deal and it is not completely made up by having advantage on the attack.
Wowza. Literally had the thought last night, “I think my dual wield melee build kinda sucks compared to my 2 handers”, and you sir have answered my question beautifully. Thank you!
I'm playing a Gith Ranger/Thief and yes, Lae'zel out damages me ALL the time, but I mean she should cause she has a Silver Sword and is my love lol. But sneak attack from ranged with two hand crossbows is also nothing to sneeze at, I may not do as much damage as Lae'zel but I can use tons of magical arrows to really change that factor. I think the magical arrow really change the whole idea of two weapon fighting cause I can even heal a condition.
The difference is exacerbated by the fact the all of the best melee weapons are great swords (Silver Sword and Balduran's) and all of the best bows are longbows (Titan String, Gontr Mael, Dead Shot), by a really wide margin.
Yeah ranged is superior is you take oils + arrows into consideration. Use the combustion oil, something like the helldusk gloves for fire dmg, and arrow of many targets, and you’ll coat and blow up large groups with single attacks
@@garyco766Most all people who run a dual wield build are going to run a Ranger, which is going to give you martial weapons (including longbows) already, so that's kind of a mute point. Ranger also gives you plenty of versatility in your build. You can be a high-Dex, dagger+shortsword wielder with Deadshot, sneaking around critting on 17's and above, or a strength-based Ranger Knight dual-wielding longswords wearing heavy armor, using the Titanstring. I've done both. The Knight is especially fun, because once you hit Act 3 you can have great AC (mine had 24ac after a quick trip to Dammon for Armor of Persistence and snagging the Helm of Balduran) and plenty of damage riders to supplement the weapons, with a great bow to boot. It's still not going to out-damage a pure 2H build with Balduran's greatsword and all that stuff, but I'd argue it's just as fun if not more so to play something like that. And to be honest, unless you're playing honor mode, it's kinda not even necessary to be having a debate over which does more damage, because both styles are viable. Only thing that matters is the enjoyment you get out of it really.
@@AgentFrostyyeah just playing on balanced I found that my Paladin could deal a ridiculous amount of damage, especially with divine favor, helldusk gloves, and smites. If I smote an enemy twice with balduran’s greatsword I swear I was doing around 100 damage in a turn sometimes. I think I had a ring for +2 poison damage and amulet that gives 1d6 poison after being healed? Something like that. But man my Paladin was a fucking beefcake. More than once my party would fall, but my Paladin was so strong he could wipe the rest of a room. Notably that Shar Temple in the city lmao
So for what it's worth, I usually have someone dual weilding the finesse longswords, Latharan's Wrath and Phalar Aluve. Because being able to not bother with strength, and go all in on dex, is *phenominal* with a pair of D8's.
The only problem with this is elixirs exist so a 2h build could go all in on dex as well. Or they could just use a finesse longsword. Or just take a one level dip in monk and use any non-2h or heavy weapon as a dex weapon.
@@CreativeExcusesGaming I like that monk recommendation!
With the 2 handed style to further the chances of bonus action attacks, a 1 level dip into war cleric gives 4 bonus action attacks per long rest. A fighter can be respected to benefit greatly from this, at level 6 Fighter5/Cleric1 then swapping back to pure fighter at 11 then at 12 grab the Cleric1 again, you lose a feat but get greater consistency with bonus action attacks as you get 3 great weapon chances to proc (at level 6 it's 2 GW chances) with 4 war charges for a guarantee
I feel like something that isn't properly compared here is damage riders.
Any items or conditions that apply on hit (such as, arcane synergy or arcane charge) are applied an extra time on TWF compared to 2H which can massively boost the damage (even without crits) comparison as the massive contribution from GWM is no longer such a big number.
Given that GWM is effectively giving you a +30 to damage per turn, you have to stack a lot of extra damage die to match it. Not impossible, but requires very specific items.
@@andrewcarter9649 Not really, Arcane charge is +4 damage per hit. So that’s easily +16 extra damage. You need more than one sure but it’s not super specific
@@andrewcarter9649 It also gives you a 25% worse chance to hit, so it isn't +30 at all. Not to mention you aren't getting 3 attacks every turn, only when you crit or kill something.
@@Kaiserland111Nobody makes a GWM build without using ways to mitigate the -5 to hit, at high levels having almost permanent advantage isn't hard and you should be looking at roughly a +15 to hit or more by late game anyway. Fighters get a 3rd attack at level 11, outside of Honor Mode 5 levels of Warlock gives you a 3rd attack from Improved Pact Weapon and the game itself gives you an incredible number of ways to gain an extra action.
This is one of my problems with the 5th edition rule set, duel wielding tends to just get left behind in damage output against 2H weapons.
I’m trying to see what’s better for a Paladin. I’m glad you broke it down. Not too many videos explain this lol
Great video, but I wanted to mention how an added benefit of dual wielding comes for Bard characters. College of swords bards only get access to duellist and Dual Wielding. At level 6 they gain the extra attack bonus as well! This is particularly good since they can use their bonus action to do “slashing flourish” allowing them to attack two targets in one attack, and being able to offhand attack leaves them able to use their action to cast spells. Combine it with Action surge or 3 levels of rogue for the extra BA And you end up with a really powerful main character build for both support and offense!!!
What should be mentioned is that if you have extra damage bonuses on gear, it closes the gap for you based off sheer number of attacks for dual wielding. If your attacks deal 1-4 fire damage per hit just off the broken helldusk gloves alone, that’s an average of 8 increased damage for the dual wielder and only 4 for the two hander with a situational 6. Poisoning/dipping weapons grants more value on dual wielding. Hunters mark and phalar aluve both buff dual wielding significantly more than two handed.
Same is true for ability score flat damage, which is why TB monk with Cloud giant elixir is busted.
If the dual wielder uses rapiers instead of longswords, the weapon dice are the same, but they can benefit from the rogues sneak attack
Uh oh, words gonna get out about the power of hand crossbows
When the game came out and I learned ed that hand crossbows could be dual wielded I created a new character with that build in mind. Damn it is so overpowered.
My god was this the best video I’ve seen. Never thought dual wield could even come close
Best comparison of the two fighting styles I've seen. Great job!!
This video is really well done! One minor critique would be the lack of mathematical inclusion of the -5 from GWM. All damage numbers for two handed weapons should be reduced by 25% to account for the -5. It's not a perfect fix, but it more closely reflects the difference in attack accuracy. I also didn't really understand the rounding down of numbers in your conversions. It had a much more significant negative effect on the dual wielding calculations.
Two handed is way better in the tabletop game, but BG3 brought the two closer to parity with damage riders and crit reduction
Great video attempting to break it down. To be honest this is all very situational as bonus actions means a lot more than just damage. Mysty step closes gaps like non other and you can also hide, or dash using bonus action and then does not lose damage if you two handing. You also has orin dagger that applies vulnerability to pierce which doubles your dps if you dual wielding. Too many different variables. I try to play what feels fun for me at different stages of game and respec as I go. Thanks for the video and hope for more to come!
Edit: also damage riders apply to both hand and you usually land more attacks if you dual wielding.
This was very good thank you. You kind of touched on it but the thing I like about the dual is the ability to mix and match damage types. I had a ranger that between all of his items was doing a lot of damage because it created kind of a cascade effect. I would not take it on everyone but for some builds that can not really take advantage of the two handed weapons it can be really good. The other issue is getting the right items to really make it sing.
I love dual wielding as an option to add more abilities or modifiers. Dual wielding staves as a wizard, dual wielding melee weapons for a ranged build can make a big difference.
Nice video, but chance to hit is something that should be accounted for in the math of average damage. You can use the avg ac of monsters per level available for the tabletop comapred to the +to hit you expect your build to have at any given lvl to determine this. Generally due to bounded accuracy this will come out to 55-65% chance to hit on avg. I have no idea if its been done but im sure the true avg ac of creature your expected to fight in act can be calculated for a more accurate view, but i doubt its far off from ~60% avg chance to hit.
Adding this to avg dmg claculations allow you to see thay actually avg affect of the -5 +10 from GWM and SS, which is almost always an increase in avg dmg btw.
You also dont consider Polearm master for the twohanders, which while it means using a 1d10 weapon instead of a 2d6, it also gives twohanders a consistent 1d4+str bonus action attack, that can also recive the -5 +10 of gwm. Meaning 3 attacks with the flat +10 to damage every round, its just sometimes the bonus attack will be a 1d10 instead of a 1d4. I also don't remember any mention of the opportunity cost of needing to use ur bonus action to get decent dmg at low levels. This hurts some builds more than others ofc.
9:55 ok that’s true. But! Counter point….. Unseen menace.
A Two handed, extra reach, Piercing pike that has the effect that makes it passively invisible till you miss. Afterward’s it’s a normal pike for 2 rounds.
But while invisible. You gain advantage on attack rolls along with reducing the number you need to crit from 20 to 19. While it’s weaker than other two handed weapons.
It has two good effects attached to it, can be acquired pretty early from the crèche, has more reach than a normal two handed weapon, has rush attack for when someone is a little out of reach, and Brace.
Meaning you can reroll even more dice for better damage numbers while having better chances to crit. Along with removing any and all forms of Disadvantage attack rolls till you miss for free without needing risky ring.
And then comes its secret Tag team partner, the Bhalist armor from act 3. Yes you need to sacrifice an ear flying elephant for it. But the dude was a dick, so fuck him.
Who cares about losing an elephant who glazes you for 5 seconds when you COULD have Advantage on attack rolls + free double damage on nearly everything?!
I wish you calculated “to hit” and “crit” against the damage numbers, especially early in the video
Hit and crit chance have huge impacts on damage calculations, and completely glossing over their importance made him lose most of his credibility.
@@Kaiserland111i rolled my eyes as soon as he said dual wielding grants you double crits and less miss because two weapons. That is just a stupid way of looking at it
Didn't realize you can turn off that automatic second hand bonus attack, that will actually make it so much better! Thanks.
Great video. You hit the nail on the head where 2 handers provide more damage and dual wielders provide more flexibility. They're not comparable really and the optimum build for dual wielders is going dex build and then savage attacker for more consistent damage, along with the dual hand crossbows (sharpshooter). I generally prefer always having something to do with my bonus action and so prefer dual wielding. However, I would argue that Paladin and smites makes it more a level playing field between dual wielding and 2 handers as you then have a smite per weapon attack and so having 2 smites each time, with lets say a Bardadin build, makes the dual wielder much more competitive
I’m currently starting a dual wield paladin build for this, going 2pal/4thief/6sword bard. Get lots of spell slots, dual wield+savage attacker, 2 bonus actions, and flourishes as needed
@@figuures6098 yeah, I've wondered that myself. Think a lot of people go 4 fighter for Champion for critical, feat and action surge but I'd be interested to know how thief works. Depends of course if you want more higher lvl spells and then going more in Bard. Think Bardadin is the most flexible and effective build in the game personally...definitely when you factor in the OP gear that pairs with it
2 handers provide more flexibility cause of all the attacks you do, you get a spare bonus action, which you can use for defence or utility. Here in the video it is assumed extra bonus action thief is also used for attacks which means no defensive options for dual weilders. It's worse if you go dex cause 2 handers can just wear heavier armor but most Dual wielders have to wear light armour.
Dual wielders are not competitive as they lack good feats IMO.
@@rickycool6083 Sorry, I'm confused by what you mean two handers being more flexible for having a spare bonus action. Being flexible means you ALWAYS have a use for whatever is at your disposal and having a weapon in both hands means you can always attack with bonus action or do anything else. That's more flexible!!! I'm also confused what you mean by dual wielders having to wear light armour. There are plenty of ways to be proficient with armour and weapons and most melee characters will choose at least 1 level of fighter and will have that
One thing that I think closes the gap a bit between 2h and dual wield is that the latter can just swap their off hand weapon more easily depending on the situation they are faced with in the middle of combat if there is something they want to achieve. For example, if they are against a caster that is about to hit the party HARD once their turn is over but is not confident they will be able to finish it off, equip the sussur dagger in off hand then stab it once or twice with bonus action. 2h cant do this as they then lose their action.
Edit: Now that I think about it I suppose they can try to throw it but if they are not built for it the chances of success would be lower than the dual wielders.
Sussur dagger make target silenced only if target took melee strike from it. throw does not work, iirc.
Spending two melee attacks to swap offhand weapon with one which deals less damage sounds unwise - essentially you trade full turn for one enemy's turn (which sometimes can do something usefull even silenced). It can help, but its rare to have a situation like that with OK party planning.
I wanted to test silence with sussur dagger and throw it into Gale with my Karlach... Not only Gale wasnt silenced at all after being hit - but also dagger dissapeared for some odd reason. In Honor mode. Great.
@@sinner5452 With Gale's taste in ''food' I feel like that was just tempting fate on your part :P
greatweapon scales way better with extra attacks, haste, action surge, and/or bloodlust. unless we're talking about dual wielding deva's maces, or running aura of murder. even with aura of murder its still better to go with sharpshooter rather than dual wielding.
Aura of murder + gwm + spear = 50 per hit
Overall, this was a great analysis. Just one point towards dual wielding is that they're often using finesse weapons and dex based characters are incredibly useful and dex is an important saving throw
Its kinda late game only but i have to remind you Bloodthirst gives Vunerabily to piercing dmg that if played correctly will overshine any 2h non smite weapon build. Great video, subscribed!
Spears are 2 handers and do piercing dmg, my orc knight hits foe 40-60 and crits for upwars to 80-90. +10 -5 hit chance becomes +20 -5 hit chance.. and if it crtis well.. 😂
With such solid math, I dont fully understand not taking into account the minus 5.
I’ve had Astarion as a dual wielder this whole play through but might respec him after seeing this. Thanks!
I personally don't like Rogues as dual wielders. Most of their damage is based around Sneak Attacks, which you get once per turn. It's not a bad idea to dual wield early for the extra d6 of damage if you don't need to hide to get Sneak Attack. Once Sneak Attack dice get high enough, dual wielding is rather mediocre and takes too much investment for Rogues.
Thanks mate. I had 2 in Rogue and 8 in fighter so far but dual wielding; so think I’ll respec him. His main role was lock picking I don’t particularly like him as a character
As someone who is playing 5e at the same time - there is more to this. You calculated average damage "on hit", but not AVERAGE damage. Average damage is when you calculate chance to hit * average "on hit" + chance to crit * crit damage.
Dual wielding is only a little worse in 5e (around 20%?), but in BG3 I guess that it can beat heavy weapons.
A 1-3-level monk dip on a two-hander also gets some flexibility with flirty of blows, if you miss with the swing or don't trigger GWM bonus attack.
great breakdown !!
What I encountered in BG3 is that the end game weapons are a 2h sword, 2 1h swords for dual wield, staff and shield for caster and a bow for a ranger.
These best in slot in the end are so much better and thus you are pretty much forced into using all different weapon types.
The game doesn't offer that many exotic/diverse weapons and you pretty much go from blue to legendary.
You got my sub cuz you analyzed damage breakdowns. I love seeing the min, avg, max graphs showing me exactly what I'm going to get if I take dual wielding over two handed. Reminds me of old Datto vids where he'd break down weapon damage on Destiny raid bosses.
Anyway, loved the vid. I've been very interested in toying around with two weapon fighting on one of my next playthroughs. I respecc'd Astarion on my first playthrough into a fighter/rogue multiclass which was fun but I did it very late in the game and didn't use him much. Need to do a Tav dual wielder run.
It is REALLY fun in early game. I watched a vid on using it to make a gish tav and it has been great.
Using up to 2 scrolls to cast spells and/or up to 2 bonus attacks with standard damage or to do maneuvers like dash, disengage, drink a potion, cast a spell that is a bonus action. All at level 1 after the resources are available at level 2! 😮💨
Very detailed and straight to the point. TL: DR its consistency vs huge dmg. I still prefer DW at the moment for style and roleplaying reasons.
This discussion has so many layers. I.E., DEX is by FAR the best stat, so dual wield can lead to an overall better character just for dumping STR altogether. On the other hand, you can have 27 STR with a potion, or 23 just by equiping gloves by superlate game.
Nowadays I either run a throw barbarian, a throw Eldricht Knight or a 2h Battlemaster - otherwise noone in my party runs STR based weapons. I usually still use one of those 3 during act 1 usually tough, because there are not enough finesse 1 handers and/or shields for the whole group.
There is one really good hand crossbow--the Ne'er Misser. It does force damage, which is incredible since almost nothing is immune or even resistant to it. Finding that second excellent hand crossbow is an issue, though.
3:30 but they would also get +2 damage from rage, alongside the resistances. Also they might be using reckless attack, making landing hits and crits more likely
Regarding crit chances in the crits section, it's worth considering crit chances with advantage over two attacks, as GWM triggers on kills as well as crit hits.
And yes, dual crossbow builds are probably the strongest dual wielding in the game. Great analysis
The solution to me seems to be: "Why not both?" Big ol' Fighter or Barbarian with a chunky two-handed weapon for BIG DAMAGE, then a two-weapon fighter to split damage as needed and potentially finish off multiple enemies. Then the rest as the party could be mage and healer or any other combo needed.
I usually make barbarians dual wield and fighters use greatsword
@@viniciusyugulis7278 that is logical, double up on barbarian bonus damage. I've been using a str-based heavy armor dual wielding beast master ranger but with high level crow darkness globes Im thinking Great Weapon Master
@@Badger3X somehow the bonus damage barbarians do in rage mode completely slipped my eyes and i got karlach to hammer away. But my first playthrough was on balanced mode and most fights lasted about 2-3 rounds at latest lvl 8+ but propably even lvl 5+ so i am not sure it would have made a big difference. I forgot to turn it on because GWM already used my bonus action on that turn and then i constantly went "oh.. that rage button looks so unused"
13:03 you really hit on where this makes sense, and that’s in build balance. I experimented with a lot of different class/subclass mixes but the overall party makeup that works the best for me is pretty consistently 1 damage caster, 1 buff/debuff caster, 1 2-handed battle tank, and 1 dual wielding crit/status inflicting melee.
I would love to give an honorable mention to one of the best Handcross bows in the game, the Ne'er Misser. Roah Moonglow sells it in Moonrise Towers and it's a +1 Hand Crossbow that does FORCE damage! The +10 damage from the Sharpshooter feat also gets converted to Force damage as well since it looks at the weapons damage type when determining the extra damage!
That thing is the goat, I always have a 2x hand crossbow user with it in every playthrough
Something you forgot about is Polearm Master that is actually very strong but only when wielding "extra reach" type of weapon.
To the ones that want to know about it:
-When attacking with a glaive, halberd, quarterstaff, or spear, you can use a bonus action to attack with the butt of your weapon.
-You can also make an Opportunity Attack when a target comes within range.
This feat dont add damage or seems useful on the cover but it is very strong for the fact that if an enemy come too close to you he will be smacked also you have a bigger area of denial because of the "extra reach" combine with Opportunity Attack. You can even punish enemy that attempt to attack you but only if they were not in your melee range before their turn therefore an enemy who moves toward you will make the game ask if you want to use your reaction to do an Opportunity Attack making the opponent's turn not worthwhile. This feat can be combine with Great Weapon fighting and Great Weapon Master, making it even stronger. If you combine all of this with the Halberd of Vigilance not only you get the +10dmg from GWM but that halberd gives you advantage on your attack roll if it is an reaction. Mix that up with Fighter sub Battle Master or Martial Adept for the Riposte and you will become the "The more you fuck around, the more you gonna find out" guy since you can either punish someone closing in or punish someone who is already in your range and attacks you. This can be stacked with Sentinel too so you will basically smacked anyone that do remotely something near you. Anyway that is to show the vast versality of this feat.
Nice video. Also one important point is the increased armor of dual wielders which can easily be dex based. With full dex buffs you have a +6 dex modifier on top of the 17 of agile armor to a total of 23 AC just from one armor piece, something that 2 handed chars cannot even dream off…
as long as we're theorycrafting... you could start with 17dex and 8 str; ASI Dex, Auntie Ethel Dex, Mirror of loss Dex for 22 dex (+6), Armor of Agility... And Gauntlets of hill giant Strength for 23 strength (or elixir for 27 str), and wield a 2H while still having the dex benefits. And Balduran's Greatsword Doubles your Str Modifier to damage per swing. 2H chars can get similar AC to dual wielders
Yes! Hand crossbows are awesome! Finding something for advantage can be difficult though, they also have much lower range. The ne'er misser is my favorite hand crossbow, dealing all force damage. Three attacks from level 3 are still pretty OP, especially when you attach damage buffs such as wrath, enlarged, and dipped weapons. At lvl 5 two handed weapons come back into play with extra attack and haste. Level 8 gloomstalker thief is crazy powerful with how many attacks, especially with hand crossbows.
Another fun build is the psychic assassin taking advantage of the shadow blade, invisibility cloak, and the resonance stone. Give up the extra bonus action to guarantee crits on surprised enemies. Can also chain starting combat again and again for that extra gloomstalker attack and more crits. Best in Act 3 when you can give most creatures vulnerability to psychic damage.
Was expecting a much deeper analysis, with hitting averages, especially since BG3 is a limited pool of targets, compared to all the DW vs 2H math that is already easily available from D&D
I'm currently doing a Two-Handed Rogue run. There are a few two-handed finess weapons in the game allowing you to use Sneak Attack. Together with the Assassin build of mostly having constant advantage, makes GWM incredibly useful.
The best "dual wield" build is actually without the fighting style, you just need Belm in your offhand and the bonus action attack uses your main hand weapon.
The other thing to think about is damage wasted from over hitting. The dual wielder will be able to deal with trash mobs way more efficiently.
That is what the spell casters are for
@@chengvang2126 My 4 martial party beg to differ.
Great video! I'm rethinking my fighter build for Honor Mode now. Thanks for this!
Well made video. Subscribed.
Its the same with DOS2. Dual weilding is better in the early game but two handed is way better later on.
The best use for dual weilding is for holding two stat sticks at the same time.
Amazing video. Also, specifically in BG3, there are A LOT of items that add small additional damage for each hit. Such as the necklace that gives each attack 1d6 acid damage to each attack. Also the sword from the underdark that gives 1d4 on each hit.
Dual Wielding has always been more of a "Stat Proc" fighting style than the Burst/Nova of the Two handed fighting style.
You'll have more opportunities to proc a particular effect like poison etc. Using dual wielding than if you're using just a two handed weapon.
All that being said, for the case of this game I prefer dueling and using the Duelist Perogative and Bhaalist Armor.
As oath of vengeance palladin you can get 10 turns of no drawback attack advantage for the cost of bonus action. This mitigates GWF penalty completely in later stages of the game. You can take it as guaranteed hit.
I've felt that the role of two weapon fighting in this game pairs well with mobile, where you stab multiple people instead of fighting a tank. So for example, if your 2H Fighter reduced an enemy to 6 HP, you're not using another 2H to deal 20 damage, with a fair chance of missing. The TWF character instead gets to finish off the enemy, and soften another target for other members to delete. I use this as well with Eldritch Knight to impose disadvantage for any control spell without losing out on melee damage or alternatively drop Eldritch Strike for Thief and have two attacks with my off -hand (such as casting Hold Person then using any off-hand weapon which benefits greatly from advantage or critical hits, such as Vicious Battleaxe).
Well preferably you'd use the TWF character to soften up the enemy so the 2H can finish them off, since then they get their GWM bonus attack.
Though you can also take a lvl as a war domain cleric, which guarantees 3 turns where you can use two hand attacks using bonus actions per long rest as well as access to bless and divine favour.
Also a note on the blade of the under mountain king. Apart from the improved critical, it also has the same effect as the great weapon fighting, but with all of your attacks. This would apply to extra damage on sneak attacks as well as on smites for a paladin. My best builds in Act 3 are dual wielders, but the offhand weapon is more for its buffs then actually attacking with it.
The buffs work when off hand? Sure?
Is it viable to make a dual welding paladin, or Rouge paladin?
i have waited for this video since i played this game the first time thx great video
my party utilized both Dual-wielding and Two-Handed Fighting style, Lazel, and Astarion respectively shined respectively in their feats, Lazel in two-handed style, and Astarion in dual-wielding, both had ranged feat specialties for when melee was not available. Coverage is key in harder difficulties so adapt as needed and think on the fly everyone.
A very clear and well-made video! I knew all of this before, but the effort and skill you put in made it worth watching:^)
by far the best video on this topic!
can't wait for more!
Will always just use what feels right.
This is some extra nerdy min maxing, but good information to consider.
In the end, everything comes together the way you piece the puzzle. Either you cheese and steal Raphael's armor, or you take actual care to up your AC and damage to premium levels. You go balls to the wall, or cautiously apply the pepper.
I'd love to see the potential dps calculations when chance to hit is factored in. Yes, you can mitigate it in some ways, but if you use those same ways without GWM, your hit chance is almost guaranteed. If I can hit four attacks (with advantage) with 99% chance to hit vs three stronger attacks with 75% chance, I think I'd take the four. Especially if, like you said, I'm building crit chance, then the damage potential is likely closer to two-handers.
I love the titan string bow for the fact that you can find gloves of dexterity. Go to withers dump dex pump your strength up and go be the Archer that makes Tiamat scared at night.
While this does focus on raw damage, it doesn't really explicitly note the fact that two-handed is more efficient damage-wise on a per action basis.
You can attack more with dual wielding, utilizing bonus actions. However, if a character has other things they'd want to use their bonus action on, dual wielders are adversely affected for damage while two-handed characters are not.
Great vid, though. Good explanations of the general maths involved.
That’s the problem I’m dealing with in my dual- wielding character right now. I’m spoiled for bonus actions and don’t have use for them, and wish I had another attack for more damage. But that is also because I had the chance to use those bonus actions for potions, to disengage, dash, and attack (often one’s that can’t recur in this encounter) already.
Both fighting styles seem like all pros no cons. Great design.
what a unique work, my friendo. glad you did.
You can also wield a Greatsword & 2x hand xbows at the same time
I am skeptical of your decision to sometimes round down damage values. When dealing with a averages and probabilities, it is often pertinent to give a couple of digits past the decimal place. The average result of a D6 is 3.5, which is definitely and significantly enough higher than 3.0
There's a pair of gloves you can find in Act 2 that come with two weapon fighting. If you already have it, you could always respec when you get them, take a different fighting style, and then you'd have two different fighting styles you could use.
Completely forgot to put that in the video. Had footage of it and everything just slipped my mind. Thanks for filling in the gap 😊
Hardly worth giving up a glove slot for what is essebtially just +1 ac
@@rookie2128 Not necessarily. It's +1 AC, +Dex or +Str to damage on off-hand weapons AND your second fighting style could be Defense (depending on the class that gained the fighting style in the first place) for another +1 AC, putting you equal to the AC you'd get from a basic shield as long as you're wearing at least light armor. Is it worth a glove slot compared to other options? Personal opinion, but for the sake of the video in a vacuum, it's worth noting.
@@Badger3Xgreat points
im sorry but i think i dont understand what youre talking about?
getting twf from the gloves means you can pickup a second fighting style... which the only one that we can make a use out of is defense for +1 AC. That is all that using those gloves allows us to gain over just taking twf from our class and using any other gloves (which btw could be wondrous gloves to just give us +1 AC directly)@@Badger3X
Great! All info veterans of 5e knew. Except for duel wielding hand crossbows. That can’t be done in 5e.
Its a well made Video, with great display of statics and well researched facts . The consideration of bonus effects is also well thought and good displayed . I just have 1 kinda problem with it, pls dont take it offensive im just more in need off an clarification. Out of my perspective you considered accurency in the earlie levels more as in the later levels for your calculation. I understand the point that you consider the attacker in advantage, but i dont feel like stats as AC and Hit bonis there considered int he right amount for the propobility for landing the attacks. As i sayed pls dont take it offensive, im from germany and my english is not so well maybe i missheard or missunderstood something. Still thx for the video.
Why include the extra 10 damage and assume every attack hits, instead consider the additional -25% hit chance (-5 attack roll), and calculate if one in every 4 attack misses? GW will probably still be ahead, but more inline with DW
I think DW wins every time because of how the game manages DRS (except on honor mode*)- if you search UA-cam for Ethan's video explaining how DRS works and account for two weapons vs one, I think it's pretty hard to beat having two weapons. That having been said, once you get this deep into the math of BG3 and start min/maxing around it, you pretty much break the game. There are tons of different ways to 1-shot enemies or break the AI. Basically, once you have a deep understanding of the game, you are deciding how hard you want the game to be for yourself, regardless of difficulty mode.
As someone who loves his Smite-Bard, the thing I like is that with Dual-Wielding I can be really efficient with my smites. Lv1 smite is 2d8, Lv2 smite is 3d8. So it is more 'economical' to use lower level smites for that extra 1d8 you get on top of the 1d8 per level. Handing out more attacks lets me overkill for less, making sure I have fuel left over to close out a fight gone south. Plus it is easier to judge how large of a smite I need once the enemy health gets lower.
Also yes, fishing for crits. Smites love crits. And I love smite crits.
This video is pure heat my guy 🔥
Hmm I would’ve liked to see the damage comps using dual hand xbows with two weapon fighting style and sharpshooter with a gloomstalker + thief multiclass. Pretty sure it clears melee builds and doesn’t require investment into 11 levels of fighter to get the third attack per action
Also opens up the door for crit builds as you can dual wield dagger of undermountain king and bloodthirst as stat sticks
Great video, thanks ! Currently I'm playing Dual Wielding and I thought of a way to deal tremendous damages! I'm lvl 10, 2 paladin / 8 bards, That way I have a lot of spell slots to cast smite ! Building crit, I often get the opportunity to cast smite up to level 5 and with the school of blades I'm able to have up to 5 attacks per turn with 80%-90% chance to hit on average. I'm not as consistent as a 2 hands weapon damage dealer but in difficult situations, I can unleash my full potential. (+ thanks to my bard level I have very convenient control spells)
War cleric or divination wizard is amazing with the greater weapon fighting feat. The ability to control what your party members roll basically negates the downside.
Grabbing two weapon fighting AND archery from multclassing Ranger and Fighter, and then grabbing thief make for the best Dual Hand Crossbow builds, combine with the Sharpshooter feat and getting dex to at least 20 🤌 just chefs kiss, especially for finishing off multiple low hp targets that are spread out across the battle. Not to mention the added utility of Scorching Rays and Magic missile from the hand crossbows
For my first complete playthrough i did a stalker build as you described with duel wielding hand crossbows and it was awesome. Had the archery attack style and sharpshooter as you described, but also had the bracers of duel wielding to get the damage modifier for duel wielding on my offhand crossbow as well.
Just go with a throw Barbarian, and you won't want to play other classes.
Good vid, but if you're using dual wield you get to proc reverberation, radiating orb, arcane synergy more from the increased number of attacks. Increased stacks can be incredible to make hitting them easier, prone the enemy, decrease their chances to hit, provide spell saving throws etc. Debuffs wreck bosses in honor :)
So eloquently spoken great explanations and presentation wonderful video
You don't have to toggle dual wield off. Just attack with offhand first and then main hand and it won't auto attack with both.
The better way is to install mods that remove the extra attack as a bonus action and just allows you to make two attacks on your action. This is how it should work in TTRPG. Otherwise when the pervirable Marilith shows they to should be subject to the same bs rule set as the players. That is one attack on your action, and one as a bonus action and the rest just flail about menacingly.
It's funny when you push back on this DMs arguments just melt away and all of the sudden players can attack twice on there action.
Well made, insightful, and straightforward 👏🏽
Extremely nice video, and you bring up most of the important points for the discussion, but just to add onto it some things you have missed:
1) You don't really talk about "% to hit" during the comparison, which obviously skews your damage numbers towards GWM/SS. For a better analysis you should actually take a "target AC" and see how the numbers change (by multiplying the average damage by the odds of hitting). You'll find out that GWM/SS is still better almost always, but there are cases where TWF actually emerges as being slightly better! At least, this is without any magic items and spells.
2) You talk about some ways to mitigate the -5 minus to GWM/SS, but you don't really talk about the best ways to counteract these maluses. The actual reason why they rise so far above anything else in the game (not considering something like a full resource paladin with auto-crit) is that the game just has a plethera of built-in ways make them practically irrelevant. Between the +3 bonus you will have in the late game, many ways to increase your base stats, a couple of really good spells that increase your attack rolls/decrease enemy AC, it's practically trivial to have 90-95% to hit even in the very last few fights of the game against all enemies. It's worth noting that the best ways to increase stats apply to strenght, not dexterity, but it's irrelevant because...
3) You reach the conclusion that dual crossbows is a really good option for people that want the best of both worlds, but you miss the fact that it's just straight up the best option. While it's true that you lack the sheer strenght of legendary items late in the game, the fact that you can make almost always at least 3 attacks in a turn with the +10 to damage PLUS you get the benefits of a shield and melee weapon you wield (which includes some extremely, EXTREMELY, good options) while using your ranged weapons, makes it the best without contender. It doesn't help that the best subclasses for this type of combat style, namely Ranger Gloomstalker and Fighter Battlemaster, are actually best used with ranged weapons because of many synergies.
Depends. Sword bard ranged slashing flourishes make longbows better than 2x crossbows pretty much all game long and hunter ranger volleys kind of invalidate 2x hand crossbow kits at level 11+.
Okay this is the indepth crazy math video content I've been looking for. Amazing stuff!
Unfortunately it is indepth crazy wrong math since he rounded down averages all over the place. All those ".5" damage that he rounded down all over the place really add up, resulting massive difference in overall average especially when factoring in all the multiple attacks per round. I mean really, yes, you won't ever roll a "3.5" on a 1d6, it will be only ever be a whole number, not a fraction, but we are talking averages and averages have an exact value, as on average if you roll 2d6, your average will be a 7, not a 6 as he is calculating, and we are looking at a LOT of Xd6 rolls in many scenarios above, meaning that it is .5 off for each d6 (and .6 off for each d4, and .5 off for each d8, and .5 off for each d10, and .5 off for each d12.... it REALLY adds up to a LOT when you are rolling a lot of dice, which on 2 weapon character with all the various bonuses and buffs like the weapon burning, or in acid, etc., etc., really makes all the math flat out wrong).
Plus. It considering hit chance, in damage calculations, which is pretty fundamental when one has -5 to hit. Expectation will be that dual weird is better against high AC targets and two handed against low.
Thank you for all the break downs for stats and dmg. You got a loke from me. Cheers 😊
Dual wield Deva Maces while wearing the Luminous Armor. 8 Bear Barb/4 Rogue Thief for 4 attacks per round. You're welcome.
great video, couldn't fully enjoy it with the massive black bars at the top and bottom though
I have PTSD when it comes to this issue thanks to another game. In Final Fantasy 11, a MMO, this was a huge problem at one point that didn't get fixed for like half a year. It was so bad that classes that specialize in 2 handed weapons were told to dual wield if they wanted to get into a party.
Damage isn't always the deciding factor in harder fights. Status effects can end a fight just as effectively. Granted, you still need damage but Karlach, Minthara, or Lae'Zel usually has this covered. I'm personally a big fan of trip attacks and disarming attacks.
Really great breakdown