Some things we must bear in mind here. For those of you who don't know too much about diesels, and how they work, these engines don't have cold start devices like glow plugs. They rely entirely on the heat built up on compression to ignite fuel. So this is why sometimes on a very cold engine, it only fires on 1 or 2 cylinders to start with, until the rest get hot enough to ignite the fuel. This is also why there is so much white smoke, which is unburned fuel, and is further the cause of the knocking noise. Once all the cylinders actually are firing, all the knocking stops, and most of the smoke too. Those who are saying it was/is knackered, are very wrong.
Chiefly - the valenta was originally a marine engine still used in some royal naval ships. It's a large engine that uses high compression. In a marine environment the engine would have been turned over by air to build up heat before diesel was injected in. On the HST it lacks a continuous steady air supply. Therefore relies on an electric starter to do the donkey work of getting the cylinders and engine upto temperature.
chiefy1402 : no glow plugs for various reasons. Designed to run all the time, not like a car in personal use. No need really as it works without as you can see here. Glow plugs for this size to get a big fella hot would require massive electrical currents, you need massive batteries to provide that. Size, weight, cost... there we go, can do without.
Big diesels are usually not fitted with any kind of cold start equipment and supposed to be pre-heated as glow-plugs could not create a steady ignition in large cylinders like these at low temperatures. Therefor the whole engine block needs to be warmed up by heating the coolant. British bollocks however just crank their stuff till the bitter end as they commonly have no clou about engines.
That amount of smoke reminds me of some of the 37s i've had trouble starting in Old Oak back in the 90s.....and that was only after a Christmas shutdown!
I worked with the marine version of the Paxman diesels used for the main generators. They were honestly unreliable and difficult to work on. The issue's got so bad that they replaced them. Ive never seen that before or since. These diesel were supposed to last the life of the ships they were on. The Lister Blackstone diesels that replaced them were much better. easy access to regular maintenance items. The Paxmans had such a bad reliability record an extra engineer was onboard and his sole job was to keep them running.
The Vulcan foundry became part of Ruston Paxman for marine diesel production by the late 1970s. When it closed a few went to Mirlees Blackstone who made the engines for the class 60s a far cleaner engine that didn’t gas drivers when starting from cold.
I’ve had one blow going on leave left oil all down first 2 carrage windows Later on I worked in navy at dml dockyard working on them Rough as far as access goes a right squeeze but subs had paxman venturas so no real biggie for most part no blower but same same always oil leaks always injector bank leaks ;)
This actually helped me stop my sleep paralysis that I had back in lockdown. As soon as I heard what sounded like some hissing demon trying to pull me out of my bed, I immediately thought of this video in my mind and ended it all
Wont pretend to know the mechanics going on inside these but diesel locos on a cold start make some almost worrying clanking sounds until everything is fired up and its cleared its lungs....... The Valenta was the HSTs most characterful engine.what a sound.
VP185's aren't too bad either. Can't beat the original Paxman Valenta's of course. MTU's have no soul compared to those but they do sound pretty decent when throttling up.
I don't like the VP185. It sounds like a Valenta that had its soul sucked out. My favourite is the Valenta followed in decending order by the MTU, Mirrlees Blackstone MB190, and the VP185. The VP185 powercars have really sucky electronics too. The Mirrlees Blackstone engine i've only heard in recordings.
I thought it was Neville Hill seen a few of the old Valentas start like this when its really cold or if they have had a new power unit fitted but even tho folk claim the MTU engine is eco friendly there are just as bad on a cold start up or when a new unit has been fitted a few times i have walked down stores road at the Hill and been fogged out by a MTU starting lol.
+Luke Bennett MTU's don't cold start per say. They are not allowed to start if the temperature of the coolant in the block is less than (i think) 75C. If you do force start an MTU from cold, it invalidates the warranty.
Virgin units use to be stabled and serviced at Neville Hill once upon a time these days we look after the cross country fleet too but the EMT 43s have been MTU fitted for some time now the last velenta to visit us at Neville Hill was around 08 09 in a Grand Central power car prior to been swappd for MTU power untis.
Although it can be heard here, it's not as obvious as some Valenta starts I've heard which is a 'clunk' as the engine starts to fire after the whining priming has been done. There's that whining for a few moments or even minutes, then there's a short 'clunk' and the engine starts to turn over. I don't know why but I just love that second between the priming and the engine firing with that 'clunk'. I don't know what or why that clunk is, perhaps someone who understands what I'm on about can enlighten me.
the clag is very flammable,,,see at 1 min 25 sec a flame occur and some clag catch fire. And these locos may start outside,,,inside is impossible,,with this amount of clag that is toxic too.
"Inside is impossible" Impossible? No! Some people really are that stupid. ua-cam.com/video/5omgoWuXl6c/v-deo.html Let's fill our shed with explosive fumes! We'll still have jobs and limbs if the whole building blows up, right?
Mostly scrapped, presumably. What else would you do with a life-expired 2250hp engine? Not like there's a huge second-hand market for that kind of thing
They had better camera's in the late 90tis, and also digital. Look it is shot on a model layout with use of Adobe After Effects and/or a smoke unit in the train. The smoke color is not right.
Amazed this was legal. Plumes and plumes. Whats actually happening inside the engine at the start as that heavy clap clap clap sounds nasty.....is it the fact that each piston needs freeing off in a tight bore.....i dont follow why the whole thing doesnt fire up on the press of the button....
Diesel engines don't have spark plugs. The fuel ignites because compressing the air in the cylinder makes it hot enough to spontaneously ignite the fuel when it's injected. However, when the engine is cold, the air doesn't get hot enough and the fuel is cold, too, so it doesn't ignite and gets pumped out of the exhaust. As the engine block starts to warm up, the cylinders start firing, one by one. The sounds you hear are just the normal sounds a diesel engine makes when it's running, but you don't normally hear them because they're masked by the sound of about 75 explosions per second when the engine's running at 1500rpm and all twelve cylinders are firing. Engines that are designed to be started in cold conditions have heaters installed in the engine block to avoid this, but it doesn't get cold enough in the UK to make this worthwhile. Also, these engines were designed just before the 1970s oil crisis, so the intention was that they'd be left idling 24/7, especially in cold weather, as diesel was super-cheap and climate change wasn't on the radar.
I wonder whether this is representative or was a knackered / faulty engine. I would have thought that the media would have been banging on about the pollution if this was a normal occurence. Even for an engine without `glow plug' preheating this sounds & looks terrible! It can be seen why MTU engines were necessary to clean up the IC125 for the 21st century. Notwithstanding the above the Valenta sounds great once hot.
+Martindyna By the end of the video, with the engine beginning to warm up, the exhaust should begin to show signs of cleaning up but if anything it's getting worse. Really hope this thing didn't go out into service that day - the engine was shot to hell.
+Simon Swain I noticed that just after 1.45 the engine at least started to sound more normal and the knocking had gone. Just as an aside it's amazing how poor the MOT is for Diesel engined cars in the UK, my 2006 Vauxhall Opel Astra 1.7 can smoke really badly due I believe to sticking vanes in the variable vane turbo. Yet, luckily for me it so far passes easily the on / off accelerator test used in the MOT. Whats needed in my view is a rolling road test to expose this type of fault (gradual increase of accelerator under load causes smoke). To stop it smoking excessively I drive it in a heavy footed fashion from low engine revs, this opens the (sticky) turbo vanes fully until the revs climb & then the vanes are progressively closed under the dictates of the air flow meter & inlet manifold pressure sensor.
We don't know how cold it was, of course. None of the older power units like this had preheat or other cold-start devices, and in very cold weather it'll take longer than 3 minutes or so to get warm enough to run clean (well, as clean as a valenta ever ran, which was not all that). As for "why re-engine the fleet" it's a damned good design all round, but the engines by the end had been in service for 30 years and covered millions of miles each and were worn out. The Valenta was also prone to self-destruct, and supplies of spares were running out, and Diesel engine design and fuelling had, by the end of the 20th century, changed quite a bit. So new, more efficient engines needed to happen anyway. It farts and bangs to begin with as, like all well worn diesels, not all the cylinders and injectors are equally worn, so it starts on probably only 3-4 cylinders and the others gradually chime in. I've got a 3-cylinder 1970 or so tractor that does the same, one cylinder doesn't start firing til well after the others, even with new injectors in it. The backfire/flames is due to build up of unburnt fuel in the exhaust from the cylinders that are slow to pick up, once the exhaust temperature gets high enough it lights that fuel up.
Because the engine block was very cold at the time, it's an old engine with no existing preheating system and can struggle like any big diesel engine in a cold start situation.
That is pollution l feel sorry for the people that lived near that depot or station. Maybe installing a marine engine to a train not such a bright idea
Some things we must bear in mind here. For those of you who don't know too much about diesels, and how they work, these engines don't have cold start devices like glow plugs.
They rely entirely on the heat built up on compression to ignite fuel. So this is why sometimes on a very cold engine, it only fires on 1 or 2 cylinders to start with, until the rest get hot enough to ignite the fuel. This is also why there is so much white smoke, which is unburned fuel, and is further the cause of the knocking noise.
Once all the cylinders actually are firing, all the knocking stops, and most of the smoke too. Those who are saying it was/is knackered, are very wrong.
why don't they have glow plugs?
Chiefly - the valenta was originally a marine engine still used in some royal naval ships. It's a large engine that uses high compression. In a marine environment the engine would have been turned over by air to build up heat before diesel was injected in. On the HST it lacks a continuous steady air supply. Therefore relies on an electric starter to do the donkey work of getting the cylinders and engine upto temperature.
It's why people enjoy these videos. The way these beasts have to come to life slowly as they warm up makes them seem so alive.
chiefy1402 : no glow plugs for various reasons. Designed to run all the time, not like a car in personal use. No need really as it works without as you can see here. Glow plugs for this size to get a big fella hot would require massive electrical currents, you need massive batteries to provide that. Size, weight, cost... there we go, can do without.
Big diesels are usually not fitted with any kind of cold start equipment and supposed to be pre-heated as glow-plugs could not create a steady ignition in large cylinders like these at low temperatures. Therefor the whole engine block needs to be warmed up by heating the coolant. British bollocks however just crank their stuff till the bitter end as they commonly have no clou about engines.
I really miss the sound of the paxman valenta. The new engines just don't sound the same. Thanks for sharing.
That amount of smoke reminds me of some of the 37s i've had trouble starting in Old Oak back in the 90s.....and that was only after a Christmas shutdown!
I always wondered where rain clouds were made
Nice video! Love these, remember going in them in the 80’s when they were intercity 125’s 🤩
I worked with the marine version of the Paxman diesels used for the main generators. They were honestly unreliable and difficult to work on. The issue's got so bad that they replaced them. Ive never seen that before or since. These diesel were supposed to last the life of the ships they were on. The Lister Blackstone diesels that replaced them were much better. easy access to regular maintenance items.
The Paxmans had such a bad reliability record an extra engineer was onboard and his sole job was to keep them running.
The Vulcan foundry became part of Ruston Paxman for marine diesel production by the late 1970s. When it closed a few went to Mirlees Blackstone who made the engines for the class 60s a far cleaner engine that didn’t gas drivers when starting from cold.
Whomever decided that it was a good idea to swap all the Paxman engines out of the class 43's has no soul!
I see what you mean and I wish they never did just as much as you but the MTU engines are more efficient and more powerful...
They swapped it because I think it kept having issues
Who cares just rebuild them and be done with it
Admittedly I’ve experienced 2 blow
I’ve had one blow going on leave left oil all down first 2 carrage windows
Later on I worked in navy at dml dockyard working on them
Rough as far as access goes a right squeeze but subs had paxman venturas so no real biggie for most part no blower but same same always oil leaks always injector bank leaks ;)
God I really miss the valenta's I was born in 72 so it's like losing family. They were always there and now there gone very sad very sad.
HST becomes a steam engine (1999, colourised)
You aren't wrong....
very Smokey and a spit of fire
This actually helped me stop my sleep paralysis that I had back in lockdown. As soon as I heard what sounded like some hissing demon trying to pull me out of my bed, I immediately thought of this video in my mind and ended it all
Nah
I love the smell of climate change in the morning
You live on a farm?
@@DaleDix no but my brother’s room was always a pig sty.
Why ruin the video
@@pennyjunction9066 did I?
what do you mean
That's one flaming, claggy HST :D!
j0
Nice I have a Hornby train set of that Virgin train HST wow that was one cold train
So have I just sounds the same ha ha
That ought to get the strong smell of diesel spread around the town!😂
Benny's train and truck spotting city* Leeds is a city
Sweet music!
1:27 Burp...
The best is awaken :)
Very nice
Nice :)
0:31, that startup of the Valenta engine though!
A beautiful beast if ever there was
I missed out on all this, I work at Neville Hill and all that's there now is the MTU and VP185's which aren't too bad....miss the Valentas though
Sounds like Michael flatley is in the engine tap dancing....
I preferred the screaming valentas to the clunking valentas.
LOL
that is real train..
As he dont own the train he doesnt let it warm up slowly. Tangobaldy
Wont pretend to know the mechanics going on inside these but diesel locos on a cold start make some almost worrying clanking sounds until everything is fired up and its cleared its lungs.......
The Valenta was the HSTs most characterful engine.what a sound.
VP185's aren't too bad either. Can't beat the original Paxman Valenta's of course. MTU's have no soul compared to those but they do sound pretty decent when throttling up.
I don't like the VP185. It sounds like a Valenta that had its soul sucked out. My favourite is the Valenta followed in decending order by the MTU, Mirrlees Blackstone MB190, and the VP185. The VP185 powercars have really sucky electronics too. The Mirrlees Blackstone engine i've only heard in recordings.
@@duncanbhaltaireanraigwilso9627I've heard that, when they worked, the Mirrlees ones went like shite off a shovel.
*when they worked.*
How to start a U Boat engine.
I thought it was Neville Hill seen a few of the old Valentas start like this when its really cold or if they have had a new power unit fitted but even tho folk claim the MTU engine is eco friendly there are just as bad on a cold start up or when a new unit has been fitted a few times i have walked down stores road at the Hill and been fogged out by a MTU starting lol.
+Luke Bennett MTU's don't cold start per say. They are not allowed to start if the temperature of the coolant in the block is less than (i think) 75C. If you do force start an MTU from cold, it invalidates the warranty.
Ah right i see but yer the good old valenta was a good lump :)
+Luke Bennett Are you sure? Neville Hill is home to the EMT 43's which have Paxman Valenta engines.
Virgin units use to be stabled and serviced at Neville Hill once upon a time these days we look after the cross country fleet too but the EMT 43s have been MTU fitted for some time now the last velenta to visit us at Neville Hill was around 08 09 in a Grand Central power car prior to been swappd for MTU power untis.
Luke Bennett That's right yes, but the EMT 43's do not have MTU's. They have Paxman VP185's.
Although it can be heard here, it's not as obvious as some Valenta starts I've heard which is a 'clunk' as the engine starts to fire after the whining priming has been done. There's that whining for a few moments or even minutes, then there's a short 'clunk' and the engine starts to turn over. I don't know why but I just love that second between the priming and the engine firing with that 'clunk'. I don't know what or why that clunk is, perhaps someone who understands what I'm on about can enlighten me.
Screenshot 1:30, print it, put it into a frame and send it to GreenPeace. I'm sure they'll love it. :)
greta thunberg would love this. 😄
Cold start or not, that is one unhappy Valenta
There was a bit of a “Well it goes doesn’t it?” mentality.
It's 43084, might've been a spare powercar that only gets started a few times every so often
Gez, it smokes like a train
so how many cars starting up was all that smoke equivalent to? Not exactly green if it made the pollution of 10,000 cars starting
about 25,000.
the clag is very flammable,,,see at 1 min 25 sec a flame occur and some clag catch fire. And these locos may start outside,,,inside is impossible,,with this amount of clag that is toxic too.
"Inside is impossible" Impossible? No! Some people really are that stupid.
ua-cam.com/video/5omgoWuXl6c/v-deo.html
Let's fill our shed with explosive fumes! We'll still have jobs and limbs if the whole building blows up, right?
@@beeble2003 Hi,i watched your video and others in closed rooms
Start Pilot... 😀
1:29 I AM THE GOD OF HELLFIRE!!!!
I think it’s about 1999 I believe
Volkswagen Valenta
0:35
1:29 hellfire
|'ve seen cleaner steam engines! 😎
lol
Does anybody know what happened to all the valenta engines when they were removed from the hst fleet.
Toyota used them for the prius
Mostly scrapped, presumably. What else would you do with a life-expired 2250hp engine? Not like there's a huge second-hand market for that kind of thing
I have a piston from one of them.
idk the royal navy probably asked for a handful of them back because britain 🤷♂️
Neville hill Longbottom
They had better camera's in the late 90tis, and also digital. Look it is shot on a model layout with use of Adobe After Effects and/or a smoke unit in the train. The smoke color is not right.
wow yeah, it's a model railway. Good spot there
Why is this virgin HST so far from its WCML home because neville hill is on the ECML
Because before Cross Country the Virgin HST's were the cross country trains .
because it was virgin cross country
1:28 it's on fire!! 😨
no it's just a cough
ok
Amazed this was legal. Plumes and plumes. Whats actually happening inside the engine at the start as that heavy clap clap clap sounds nasty.....is it the fact that each piston needs freeing off in a tight bore.....i dont follow why the whole thing doesnt fire up on the press of the button....
Diesel engines don't have spark plugs. The fuel ignites because compressing the air in the cylinder makes it hot enough to spontaneously ignite the fuel when it's injected. However, when the engine is cold, the air doesn't get hot enough and the fuel is cold, too, so it doesn't ignite and gets pumped out of the exhaust. As the engine block starts to warm up, the cylinders start firing, one by one. The sounds you hear are just the normal sounds a diesel engine makes when it's running, but you don't normally hear them because they're masked by the sound of about 75 explosions per second when the engine's running at 1500rpm and all twelve cylinders are firing.
Engines that are designed to be started in cold conditions have heaters installed in the engine block to avoid this, but it doesn't get cold enough in the UK to make this worthwhile. Also, these engines were designed just before the 1970s oil crisis, so the intention was that they'd be left idling 24/7, especially in cold weather, as diesel was super-cheap and climate change wasn't on the radar.
ahhhh 43064 ha that was grand centrals now its at east midlands trains
literally came across this video and right after the same train as EMT ua-cam.com/video/p13dydraGds/v-deo.html that train must be really old now
Can’t find the original comment that said this but; that is one unhappy Valenta!
This is a steam loco.
European Vinesauce Clagg it ain’t cuz that was smoke
Is that mostly smoke or condensation?
It's unburnt fuel `fog'
@@Martindyna the smell of freedom!!
Stick that up yer Twitter Feed, Greta.
1:32 'Increasing flux capacitor to 1.21 gigawatts!!!'
Greta Thunberg is gonna have an SJW coronary seeing this. That things smoking like snoop Dogg.
I absolutely love it 💙
I wonder whether this is representative or was a knackered / faulty engine.
I would have thought that the media would have been banging on about the pollution if this was a normal occurence. Even for an engine without `glow plug' preheating this sounds & looks terrible!
It can be seen why MTU engines were necessary to clean up the IC125 for the 21st century.
Notwithstanding the above the Valenta sounds great once hot.
+Martindyna This was not normal.
+Simon Swain Thanks
+Martindyna By the end of the video, with the engine beginning to warm up, the exhaust should begin to show signs of cleaning up but if anything it's getting worse. Really hope this thing didn't go out into service that day - the engine was shot to hell.
+Simon Swain I noticed that just after 1.45 the engine at least started to sound more normal and the knocking had gone.
Just as an aside it's amazing how poor the MOT is for Diesel engined cars in the UK, my 2006 Vauxhall Opel Astra 1.7 can smoke really badly due I believe to sticking vanes in the variable vane turbo. Yet, luckily for me it so far passes easily the on / off accelerator test used in the MOT.
Whats needed in my view is a rolling road test to expose this type of fault (gradual increase of accelerator under load causes smoke).
To stop it smoking excessively I drive it in a heavy footed fashion from low engine revs, this opens the (sticky) turbo vanes fully until the revs climb & then the vanes are progressively closed under the dictates of the air flow meter & inlet manifold pressure sensor.
We don't know how cold it was, of course. None of the older power units like this had preheat or other cold-start devices, and in very cold weather it'll take longer than 3 minutes or so to get warm enough to run clean (well, as clean as a valenta ever ran, which was not all that). As for "why re-engine the fleet" it's a damned good design all round, but the engines by the end had been in service for 30 years and covered millions of miles each and were worn out. The Valenta was also prone to self-destruct, and supplies of spares were running out, and Diesel engine design and fuelling had, by the end of the 20th century, changed quite a bit. So new, more efficient engines needed to happen anyway.
It farts and bangs to begin with as, like all well worn diesels, not all the cylinders and injectors are equally worn, so it starts on probably only 3-4 cylinders and the others gradually chime in. I've got a 3-cylinder 1970 or so tractor that does the same, one cylinder doesn't start firing til well after the others, even with new injectors in it. The backfire/flames is due to build up of unburnt fuel in the exhaust from the cylinders that are slow to pick up, once the exhaust temperature gets high enough it lights that fuel up.
Don’t show this to Greta, whatever you do!
What happened at 1:30 ?
The smoke you see is unburnt diesel. At 1:30, something ignites it.
why was it chuffing at the start?
because it´s very poor technology ...the engines have no glow or pre-heat system
Oh.
Because the engine block was very cold at the time, it's an old engine with no existing preheating system and can struggle like any big diesel engine in a cold start situation.
Because it thought it was a steam engine?
bobl78 that 'very poor technology' as you like to put it, powered probably the most successful trains in the history of the world!
Steam hst
The old girl got there in the end .
No engine should process that amount of unburnt fuel,
Absolutely disgusting,whatever sound it makes
pretty much every cold started engine do this because how the fuel is being a thick goo
Is that legal nowadays.I'm no Greenpeace member but that Is terrible.Imagine he on a platform with that flashing up.Nightmare
That is pollution l feel sorry for the people that lived near that depot or station. Maybe installing a marine engine to a train not such a bright idea
That idea was used for the Deltics built in the late 50s to early 60s
@@cameronmurphy8825 exactly 50’s and 60’s enough said !
The Paxman Valenta was designed specifically for rail use. Marine use came later, as Paxman looked for other markets.
That's a model engine
dirk diggler it aint
It's real
Trains 125 jake exactly
She is not happy
Virgin must hate this video 😂
Dont show greta thunberg this or she give the how dare you speech
Nobody cares about anything that little political puppet has to say.