I really like Chris but it's not going to make a difference to him now. He can either get results on what he's got or he can't. The sport is bigger than his opinion or that if his mechanic
You do have a choice still from many suppliers of framesets, wheels manufacturers and complete bikes. Depending upon one's age you could buy a stock of parts new or used to see you out until you're 70 odd.
DISC IS A FOUR LETTER WORD I love Gary's analysis - this is arguably the world's best bike mechanic or at least mechanic to the greatest cycling superstar out. We do have a choice - I have a Dogma with Rim brakes, I am buying a new Canyon Ultimate with Rim brakes and I have an Allez with Rim brakes, if more people would refuse disc brakes, there would not be this issue of the industry disc-connecting with their consumers. Looking at Mohoric's horrific crash in the Giro, I think there is strong evidence to say that discs are unsafe because of the torque moment put on the front for during braking, um this is very dangerous; the torque moment on the front fork is leveraged with discs nicely setting you up for a front fork failure which is a death sentence during descending. Let's be honest - the reason the industry is pushing discs is that they are using discs to justify a premium on the bikes of around 10 to 15% thus the gullible cyclist is buying this and funding the industry to push an inferior option. Dual pivot rim brakes however are totally superior. DISC IS A FOUR LETTER WORD
Wrong - Bianchi, Cannondale, Dolan, Ribble and ofcourse Pinarello are producing rim brake bikes - these bikes are lighter and faster than the disc alternative, - there are a few other brands that produce rim options - just you must be much more careful when you buy a bike nowadays - if you are on discs and get a puncture your race is over, if you are well prepared and on a rim bike, you will be back in the race in under a minute. My opinion of this is that brands are recognizing that more discerning cyclists largely reject DISC options - thus brands are forced to offer rim options or forego market share to other brands with Rim brake options. Pros have pro mechanics to align the discs - consumers don't. DISC IS A FOUR LETTER WORD LIKE SCAM - DON'T FALL FOR IT, IT IS AN EXPENSIVE SCAM THAT SPELLS TROUBLE
I've been saying this for 5 yrs. Rim brakes need to come back! No question about it.. Real riders that understand every nut and bolts on their bikes know. Many riders just follow trends without understand the tech. They just want whats new and now we are the verge of riding something thats not ment for us. Disc has its place with cyclocross and mountain biking, not for roadys. I respect Gary for coming out publicly and saying that. Hopefully shimano wakes up and recovers from their covid symptoms.
So glad pros and mechanics are speaking the truth about this. The road bike industry doesn’t have many places to go in terms of development. Discs were one of the last biggies and people fell for it…
I agree. I am still using a 10-speed cassette and shifters because when the manufacturers switched to 11-speed and then switched all of the shift levers to only support 11-speed, it knew it was just a gimmick to make everyone upgrade! I have no problem riding my 10-speed and see no point upgrading to 11. You seem knowledgeable, Totalvulsion. I am sure you're still rock'n 10-speed mech shifting, just like me!
@@donmyers6113 I rode 10 for years until I bought my new bike. The advantage go to an 11 to 34 cassette to make climbing easier for old self. Otherwise, there really wasn't an advantage to me.
@@donmyers6113 Actually it isn't "just 11 speed". The 10-speed Tiagra 4700 shifters work with all Shimano 11-speed RD's. And, all the 11 speed shifters work with the 10-speed Tiagra RD. The issue is "cable pull ratio", if you want to Google it. In fact Tiagra 4700 is the *best* 10-speed shifting there has ever been -- do to the longer cable pull.
This is why I use TRP SLC spyre mechanical calipers with compressionless outer cables, each piston independently returns to its fully retracted position after every single pull of the level! Plus if your wheels are out and you knock or pull the levers it's not an issue. I use 160mm rotors which with mechanical feel similar power to say a hydro 140mm. The one thing I really want is some slightly thicker rotors, most 1.8mm I want 2.2mm as I can like Gary mentioned independently adjust each piston in a matter of seconds, so I can run thicker rotors which means better heat transfer and less chance of warping. But the reason I like discs is because I'm 111kg big old guy who wants carbon wheels and the disc brakes means I can run these wheels without needing alloy Breaking surfaces to handle heat and stop delamination
@@byrondixon4648 if fitted and set up well with compressionless outers they are 95% the power of full hydro and equal to rim brakes, but better in the wet. Simply reliable 👍
Also, simplicity of rim brakes maintenance should be taken under consideration. They are simply hassle free. Almost everybody is able to maintain them properly. No mechanics needed.
Couldn't agree more with this comment. I'm sticking with rim brakes, external cables, manual shifting, and hand-built aluminum wheels. A bicycle shouldn't be a money pit.
That's mainly why I went for rim brakes on the road bike I just ordered, my MTB disk brakes still need some work to get right, at least the front one works though.
@@The86rick Yeah, right. The number of folks on race training rides that have Di2 shifting problems and have to drop out of the ride.... I've heard Cat.1 racers say "I've never won a race due to Di2, but I've certainly lost races due to Di2 problems."
I’ve descended the Grossglöckner road with 25kg of additional weight on my bike. And I was going at around 70kmh. No issue whatsoever. That’s the story of one person of course, but so is the story of Chris Froome. It’s the experience of one person only. In summer I regularly do tours with several thousands of height meter of descents, concentrated on three passes or so. Never had an issue. I’ve descended the Stelvio with rim brakes and disc brakes. With rim brakes I had to take a break two thirds of the way down because the rim brake pads were soft as butter. Did not have the same issue with disc brakes. I agree on the temperature issue. At least you should use 160mm front and back. 140mm is just ridiculous. I’ve assembled several bikes and bled a shit load of brakes. Never had any of the issues mentioned in the video. After very long descents they can rub, yes. But for a short time. As soon as the rotors cool off it’s all good. If the pistons get stuck you are probably not cleaning them before pushing them back in the caliper. Surely the tech can still be improved, I give you that.
Something tells me that Chris has many bicycles of the same exact set up. So he is not sampling one set up. Professional down hill speed can hit triple digits that even the motor bikes can't hang. The skill is in not braking. Tires don't blow because pros use tubular tires that don't have the same heat build up /rim weakness as clincher or tubeless due to the different rim brake location/geometry.
I agree. I weigh considerably more than Froome and I've not had the issues he keeps saying he has. I don't get it. And I also ride and race gravel. Descending mountain gravel roads are way harder on brakes than on a road bike on pavement.
@@Wildschwein_Jaeger if the skill is not braking then they are going very fast which means they have to brake from a very high speed. But also means that the brakes have a long time to cool down between braking. An average cycle tourist that descends an alpine pass with the brakes mostly on is very likely stressing the system more. This is what I used to do often and never had the same issues as mentioned in the video. I'm not saying I'm a better mechanic than Gary, but I do take great care of my bike, especially the brakes.
I've said this elsewhere. I am 105kg plus. Not fat, heavy. I have much experience in far more complex stuff than bikes, I know how to set up stuff. My one disc bike is Shimano Hydraulic 2 x 160. It is my tour/ gravel bike and I live in a very, very hilly area. The discs fade, period. At the bottom of a couple of mile decent circa 40mph max I am having serious fade. My road bikes with rim and Campag pads not so. Maybe 180 rotors, but as is, not good enough.
valid points :) Although I'm very much a fan of disc brakes on road bikes, but I can appreciate the points made. Hopefully some improvement can be made with regards to pad clearance. More movement initially, followed by more force. Shimano calls it "servo-wave" on its MTB range, but it can be improved even more.
So common crashes in the pro peloton right now is caused by too powerful (difficult to modulate) disc brakes and not by newbies in the peloton as some people claim it to be in order to protect the interest of the manufacturers.
@@ThePaulKat Then why is it still being forced to be used in the pro peloton if it has a tendency to be "grabby" causing the tires to lose traction and the eventual crash inside the peloton? Not to mention that some manufacturers are forcing disc brakes to consumers by no longer making rim brakes. It doesn't make sense doesn't it?
Alberto Contador rode 270kms a couple of days ago on his Strava. He averaged 35kmh and descended to a speed of 92kmh on his disc brake bike. He didn't come off from over braking but I'm sure he used those brakes.
At just over 50km to go at the Tour de Romandie a while ago, another crash in the peloton and Matt Stephens is commentating that one cause of recent crashes is on the modulation of disc brakes catching the riders by surprise. So this is an open secret within the pro peloton and it looks like only Chris Froome is doing something about it to force the manufacturers to ramp up the development of disc brakes. So in its' current state, disc brakes for road bikes is not better than rim brakes. It is still under developed yet it costs an arm and a leg in the upper tier of the groupsets.
Great vid! Could hydro rim brakes make a come back for road? Given alot of new riders are getting a gravel/allroad bike as their first bike more and more I also wonder will pure road racing become more niche over time, and marketing folks from sram/shimano etc can lean into that and relaunch hydro rim brakes for this 'niche 100% performance option' ?
Hydraulic rim brakes would be nice as it would give an easier lever feel. The problem is it would be extremely easy to Lock up hydraulic rim brakes without some sort of pressure relief anti lock built in. Disc us actually better for modulating as it's less efficient as rim and that's why it's great in hydraulic but pretty lousy as cable.
One reason why I have linux as the only operatingsystem in my computer already over 10 years, is because I have freedom to chose for everything. Not just what web browser I use or something. But also desktop environment. I have xfce by the way and distribution is Arch linux. So I select everything by my self. I want to have more choices also when I select braking system and gearing and everything for my bicycle. I understand, that the same flexibility that is easy to implement foe software can't be transferred to hardware, because manufacturing cost, but. At least brake system, like disc or rim, that choice should keep. Also I wonder how much it really cost to manufacture the disc brake calipers. I understand they need to polish the cylinders where pistons move, or maybe they don't? It seems, there are stretchable seals that seal it and there is only little movement when the brake pads and rotors wear, the piston move little bit further, so it does not have to be so perfect, just enough to seal it. Otherwise the seal stretch and that same stretching power also pull the piston back inside, when you release the brake lever. I don't know how it's done on the other end at brake lever. There I guess the pistons are much smaller and move longer. So there probably is little more polishing needed. But overall. It seems to me that hydraulic discbrakes are very cheap to manufacture, because they have so few components. Maybe the rotors actually are the most expensive parts? But because often they don't make even those to perfection, it's probably really cheap to manufacture them.
P.S. Subscribed. I appreciated the "Hearts" to my comments and love supporting small but growing, independent UA-camrs who make the effort to stay connected to their community. 👏👍🙌👊
I hear that the Campagnolo disc brakes perform better regarding the rotor rub and overheating, due to a different return spring and piston design (from Magura). It would interesting to hear feedback about this. Thanks for another great video.
I have heard people praise the campy disc brakes, but i have had no experience using them, so if i commented, it would be pure speculation. I would say they still suffer from the same problems with all the issues as do all the other brands would, alignment, fork fittment, hub accuracy, frame finish, wheel construction, etc. Because disc need to have every associated component made to tight tolerances, and this is a problem in the bike industry. Their QC is poor.
They work better than Shimano or Sram (i have all of them). They still add a few watts of drag and a couple hundred grams to the bike. Which is ridiculous on a race machine which is only made for speed. Also the campy rim brakes on the campy carbon brake track work exactly same strong. I can block any wheel at any time with them if i try. Braking power on road bikes is actually more limited by the tire than by the braking system. As a customer i tried very hard to order a dogma f in rim. Impossible here in germany. Disc or nothing. So i went with the disc. So of corse we are forced to buy a subpar braking system, if we desire new bikes. Sad but true. Everything else is just a lie
I have Ekar components x 1 yr. The DBs are way better than rim brakes on gravel (and road). I’ve ridden Campy since I started racing & used their road DBs for 2 yrs. No real problems. Just switched to DA Di2 12, but have yet to ride the group!
Hadn't thought about how disc brakes on non-suspended road bikes would be much more susceptible to pad alignment issues and squeaking from constant deformation of the fork under rough riding conditions and hard braking. Thanks for the informative video. Miss Froome being at the top. Really thought he might be the next TdF 5-time winner, but accidents happen.
Wayne's content is not anti disk brake. He simply argues that professional racing bicycles only need rim brakes. You can put whatever style of brakes you want on your road bicycle as a matter of personal choice. However the industry marketing has decided that professional racing will use disk brakes to market the to the public. This has reduced consumer choice as most new bicycles are disk brake only. Disk brakes for road bicycles are not technically mature. They do not provide enough problem solving to justify them as a replacement for rim brakes in the professional pelton. Disk brakes have created problems where there was none. Disks brakes are mature enough for the casual non professional road cyclist. They pose a challenge to properly maintain for everyone, consumers up to and including professional mechanics. Things done in the name of progress don't always make things better.
@@The86rick You forget many people either can’t or will not change a tube. Off to the bike shop. It is not to do with rocket science, it is making a simple bicycle like a car, for the newer generation it needs to be serviced. All this does is discourage people from using a bicycle as a active form of commuting and exercise. It eventually ends up sitting in the garage, hanging somewhere.
@@The86rick False cause argument you make. Professional mechanics have challenges with disk brakes. No one expects an non mechanically inclined individual to perform maintenance at a professional mechanic level if at all. That is why LBS stay in business. But even for the mechanically inclined with the knack, some jobs are not worth the cost of a specialist tool. How often do you ream out and resize a seat tube? How do you expect that a LBS or back yard mechanic with less access to the manufacturer will perform maintenence better than a professional mechanic? Main point is if a pro mechanic says they are hard to keep in tune because the technology is not ripe. He may have a valid argument.
One aspect of disc in pro cycling never brought up, perhaps due to lack of awareness is upon a wheel change the rider is now on a rotor which requires "bedding". Therefore more than likely the rider will surprisingly experience immediate sub par braking performance.
Road disc needs more oil volume in the system with more space in the lever reservoir and more caliper piston space to retract more but that means more weight.
I agree with all of it. However I switched to discs and I'm not coming back. I just can't cope with the thought of disposable carbon rims. I raced on my carbon rim brake clinchers under torrential rain and as a consequence I could visually see the brake track starting to get eaten by the grimy pads in a single day of racing. When you own high end wheels, it is really a sad experience. That was the day I made the switch.
I can totally relate to this! I love rim brakes and the 'fighter jet' sound of braking on them, but unfortunally the rims to wear away and become very pricy!!
I'm a huge fan of rim brakes but without a doubt, carbon wheels equate to disk brakes. But I'm one who still think that considering the use I do and my talent, carbon wheels are a waste of money. I prefer to ride aluminum wheels and spend my money on living new experience i.e. riding in new regions, areas or countries. Lest stuff, more life !
I'm guessing that the weight saved by carbon rims is more than offset by the increased weight of the discs. Also there's hardly any weight difference between high end carbon and alloy wheels.
@@therainbowgulag. I agree if you're a weight weenie and a mountain goat, not my case though :) I'm looking for more than just weight in a carbon wheelset.
I like that disc brakes have allowed me to put wider tires inside the frame. My rim brake bike only takes up to 25mm tires while my disc brake takes up to 32mm.
Great video and points, disc brakes are great on my MTB with it's wide grippy tyres but rim brakes do the job on my road bikes. Problems with rim brakes can normally be sorted on the ride, even on the fly, but discs need more work when they go wrong.
Customers have been asking for disc brakes for years before they finally came on the market. Most customers love them. Easy maintenance, lot's of braking power. The annoying thing is that the influence of the weight weenies compromised the execution of the current disc brake designs. Discs are to light, brake handles are not adjustable enough, manufacturers use a laddering up to create price differentiation for functionality that costs cents, true floating discs with auto centering are not out there yet, regressive engagement to allow higher clearance also not designed, ... incompetence.
One other point is the stopping power of the disc is higher than what is possible with tiny 25 mm tires and very little contact on the road with a very light bike. I am surprised we haven't seen more crashes because of this. I watched a kid in my neighborhood apply too much brake on his bike and it launched him over the bars...very scary. Also I have never seen a test with a high end rim brake bike vs a high end disc brake bike and how much better disc brake stopping power is on actual road conditions on actual bikes. I think the improved stopping power is more theory than reality in the real world. I nearly ran off the road on my disc brake bike because I was expecting it to stop faster than it did when wet. I had the same delay (one rotation of the wheel) as on my rim brake bike.
Fascinating. In this excerpt, around 2:10, Mr Blem does make another comment: more crashes in the peleton. Interestingly, Johan Bruyneel made a similar point to perplexed Armstrong and Hincapie in their Wedü postcast for the 2021 TdF. As a light randonneur, breaking down a day's ride away from sleeping quarters with no competent mechanic nearby is my primary fear, so i obsess about reliability, which in first approximation equates to simplicity and a few other things. I am quite content with my 50-40 year old relics, but if i were to have a bespoke bicycle made for me today, it would not have disc brakes either, if only because i am partial to old-fashioned, bent, springy, steel forks ;)
On other thing, carbon frames have been in the one kilogram range for years. Until the UCI lowers the requirements for allowed weight, most bikes in the pro Peloton actually have to have weight added to make the minimum standard. It's been this way since the mid 2010 period. One team mechanic was quoted for making comments about how they were filling the Shimano Hollowtech cranks so the bike would make weight. Adding 300 to 400 grams of weight has made it easier to make the minimums. And there have been no frame failures for years. However, a recent series of wheel failures is quite interesting. Maybe looking into why wheels failed during the Spring Classics would prove interesting. BTW, one of our cyclists had a spectacular front wheel failure which cycled him in and out of hospital several times. He was on new wheels at the time as well.
Done vids about wheels, this is one of the forced changes by disc brakes. Also with weight, they only added weight when it was rim brakes, with disc they are struggling to meet the weight limit. Frame manufacturers are now using EPS technology to get the frames lighter.
@@waynosfotos Interesting as they had the weight below 6.5 Kg on a routine basis. If discs add 300 to 400 grams keeping the weight at 6.8 to 7 Kg shouldn't be that difficult.
From what I understand, and I don’t own any high end bikes, the weight limit can be reached fairly easily (eg. Specialized Aethos) but more of the carbon material is used to reinforce the disc break system and the bike is not stiff enough for world tour racing.
@@brandonguz Hmmm. I thought one of the advantages to the S-Works was its level of refined compliance. Adding the discs shouldn't have changed this a great deal as they are added to normally reinforced areas. I would be concerned if they mounted halfway up the stays or forks like cantilever brakes appear to do.
At 9:30 you say that since you generate less force on a large disc, then less heat is therefore generated. But larger discs have larger translational velocity such that the stopping power is the same as with small disc. You are right that larger discs can of course dissipate the generated heat better and therefore they cool faster.
You hit the nail om the head,all we want is a choice rim or disc we decide what we buy,for me i have 3 rim brake bikes and 1 disc,i can say that my rim brakes brake better in wet or dry weather,because i use swiss stop pads on my carbon rims,discs make a lot of noise in the wet and in all honesty are not that good. I dont particularly like Durianrider but he has always said disc for dirt rim for road and he is correct.
I have two new-ish road bikes, one with disc one with rim. I'll say that I've had a positive disc experience. I've had none of the problems people often cite and I definitely appreciate the added confidence (actually braking ability who knows) when descending switchbacks. That said, I will continue to buy rim brake bikes as long as I'm able to simply because the benefits of disc brakes (when they work as advertised, as mine admittedly do) do not outweigh the added hassle of servicing them nor the extra weight and aero penalty to me.
Instead of trying to lure me into some trap trick question, just come out with your point. Surely if whatever you're going to say is relevant it hardly matters what I answer, right?
For most people aero is literally a joke. Your body us the majority of the resistance. Adding .001 cDA to your air resistance is a small amount when you could loose .1 by just riding in a better position...
@@NikeonaBike I have been racing cycling for 30 years now and I’ve represented two different countries in triathlon and cycling. I currently own 14 bicycles which range from 1980’s to 2022 models one of them is a gravel racer with discs and my newest one is a disk road bike. Why I asked about the area you ride in makes a big difference because some areas are flat whereas the area I’m currently in is extremely hilly with extremely fast descents. For me both disc and rim brakes are very similar in the dry but discs trump rim brakes in the wet. On Saturday I took part in 140 km race which had a 6 km decent and we were reaching speeds of 90 km/h. This was the first issue I’ve had on discs since riding with them on my mountain bikes for years. The front disc I warped quite severely on the descend and I had to ride the last 11 km with the buckled disc.Not sure the pros would be happy with that. There were plenty of riders with over cooked calipers along the route. Paul components make some awesome cable disc brakes and may consider getting a set of them as you can loosen the spacing of the pads and it has a alignment screw👍
@@BrettinLux Did you apply the brakes a lot at once or feather them? By my quick math you would be about four minutes to cover 6 km at 90 km/hrs. That seems like a short time to warp a rotor.
I much prefer disc brakes, but I'd probably hate them if I was a team mechanic. They have always had to work their buts off and discs are more work to setup and maintain.
The current crop of “road discs” are not really up to the job, 140mm rotors and single piston FLAT mount standard callipers will always have issues when racing. Couple this to poor standards of manufacturing across virtually all frames then you have an issue. My road bikes have rim brakes - and I built these up AFTER having MTBs and all road bikes with discs. My All road bikes do have discs (Paul Klampers) with 180mm rotors on the front and 160mm on the back. I have had to face the brake mounts on both of the frames to get the right fit for the brakes. If you race and are a weight weeny then I would stay with rims while you can. If you are more at home with a few hundred extra grams then with a bit of work (hope 4 pots with 180mm callipers on all the main manufacturers road sets now) you can get brakes that don’t overheat or squeak. At the end of the day if you ride somewhere nice dry and sunny with smooth roads then you can use rim brakes to your hearts content (whilst you can still get them) if you live somewhere wet with poor roads (like the U.K.) then the right disc set up pays off. The majority of manufacturers still have a way to go with this tech, and shoddy standards and poor manufacturers QA is not helping the cyclist 🚴♀️
Well said Chris. and this mechanic knows.. Because of health problems, I would love to buy a good quality E road bike, but I'm not paying £4,000 + for something that I don't like, or not given given a choice.
Personally I think that manufacturers should provide the consumer with the option of disc or rim brakes. Without this option in the high-end market, how are we to know what people really want to ride
I can't reliability say for disc brakes as I do not have enough range of experience. But I can say that in my experience using about a dozen different brands of rim brake pads that the functionality of rim brakes varies significantly with choice of pads. Kool Stop Dual Surface brake pads with their integrated plow that quickly removes debris and water have proven to provide superior braking over a wide range of weather condition for me and are my pad of choice. I mention this because when comparing disc brakes to rim brakes I think the choice of rim brake pad used is of critical importance. I am unaware of any tests comparing the two braking systems where the the tester has sufficiently accounted for this factor.
@@johnlewsey4458 eventually it will be, I believe the end user should always have to choice of what he/she wants to buy, and the only reason I said that is because the bike industry is pushing for a certain design and eliminating the other one which I feel has really no design flaws. The flaws are in the rim construction.
"The speed of the Palaton has gone up" sure sure that's why those boys from the 1963 race 🏁 still hold the speed on record for now for that Race. Hmm 🤔
Im an old roadie. I just want a simple classic road bike (mine are Lynskeys one grouped in sram red another in campy athena just cleanse the palate :) Im never going to need a pro road rig, the pros can have their discs, I can build a new wheel when the brake track wears. Its more fun than tinkering with the hydraulics or chasing squeaks every few days.
The pro cyclist's does not have the time to relined the disc brakes when there is race going on.. it is a waste of time with rim brakes even if a pro cyclist has flat tire it can be replaced buy new wheel and you just take off right way with no problem
@@waynosfotos was there anything wrong with those shifters ....NO....... And whoever suggested hyrdo Rim brakes seriously get REAL..... Bikes are meant to simply your life not complicate things..... there is absolutely nothing wrong with cable actuated brakes or gears for that matter.
Team Jumbo Visma's losses this year can be attributed to them using heavy af Crapvelo Diskbrake Frames. Wout van Aert & Roglic's superhuman performances are already terribly nerfed/ weakened by their bikes alone.
Froome's mechanic summed things up well while IMHO nothing much other than running time was added by the creator of the rest of it. One really needs to wonder about how great stuff is when some of the best technicians can't keep the best equipment performing to the riders' satisfaction despite an almost unlimited budget,, truck full of parts, follow-car with spare bikes, etc. Does Mr. (or Mrs.) average cyclist really have more fun on a bike that's more like an F1 car when it comes to setup and maintenance vs an entirely mechanical one with gears and braking controlled by simple, cheap and reliable cables and no batteries to charge?
As a former pro mech for woman's uci world tour team sho-aire 2012 and an amateur road racer, this topic is one that needs more attention. Road disc was not ready and may never be. Just like road tubeless, insanely wide internal width on rims, low pressures, hookless, etc.............This is all going to come back around and they will become out of fashion and there will be all kinds of hurt feelings and embarrassment. Riders should decide what is safe and what they want. Disc brakes on road racing bikes is ridiculous.
Legendary Froome and his mechanic expressed it's marketing hype, but disc fanboys are still worshipping discs and applauding for brands eliminating rim brake frames brutally
don’t believe the comment about pros putting so much stress on them during descents - pros go faster on descents and are lighter both of which mean less braking … so amateurs on mountains put more strain on brakes than pros. As to why rims are disappearing - we don’t want to buy them , it’s that simple
Looking at Alberto Contadors Strava from a few days ago he did a 270 km ride with his mates averaging 35 kmh and a top speed of 92 kmh. He rides a disc brake bike. He rides almost daily and doesn't lock it up. So is it disc brakes or....
Gary Blem is right and I want to add that it becomes a real nightmare when you add integrated handlebars/stem combo. Want to change your stem or handlebars? Mmmm
Gary’s right , racing as opposed to what even a good club rider can put the bike through is very different. It’s such a specific thing. Moto Gp bikes have carbon rotors that just wouldn’t work on the road . Give the rider what he wants , simple as that! Marketing has such a negative impact on what people think they need . I love discs , but I can’t ride like a pro 😅
I use an ex-pro mechanic when necessary and there simply is no comparison with a normal shop mechanic or very good home mechanic. So anyone criticizing these people simply doesn't know what they're talking about. In what world does stopping faster make you ride faster?
I was 100% with you until the "In what world does stopping faster make you ride faster?" - I'd have to guess you simply don't live or ride anywhere with mountains.
@@lastfm4477 - Well perhaps you ride a different kind of climb than I do. According to my Garmin, in the last 12 months I've climbed 148,000 feet with grades up to 14%. Even if you are using metric that's 46,000 meter isn't it? Before covid-19 lockdowns I did twice that. And I am 77 years old now. What sort of climbing do you do that being able to get thrown over the handlebars or sliding your wheels our from under you improves your ride?
@@tomkunich9401 - Re-reading that it sounds a little smart-assed. It wasn't meant to be that way. The dangers of disk brakes locking up and pulling your wheels out from under you or throwing you over the handlebars as you're beginning to hit the brakes and suddenly hit a very rough patch are very real. I ride hard enough that these things have happened to me. To the point that I am an ardent supporter of rim brakes again. Disk brakes are quite nice on MTB's because you seldom have enough traction or weight distribution to toss you. But on a CX bike with disks on a very steep dirt descent I was thrown so far in the air that I had time to turn my body around and land with very little injury before that damned bike came down on me. Here I am laying under that mess and an onlooker says, "Are you OK?" I responded with "AM I OK???" and it rang off the surrounding mountain sides echoing for 10 seconds. Yep, rim brakes for me.
There is nothing wrong with rim brakes or disc brakes and they work just fine. Professional cycling teams should ask themselves whether the products they use are still suitable for the high competition level. The products they use are not much different from those we all can buy. With regard to the disc brakes, I think that the major bicycle brands do not have the expertise to perform at this professional cycling level. It takes companies like Brembo or Nissin to solve Gary Blem's problems. In road racing we had the same discussion in the late 60s early 70s regarding rim brakes and disc brakes.
Just to let you know, the bikes the pros ride are modified for the pro circuit. A clear example which was revealed was the Specialized SL7 pro bike, it has a aluminium shaft insert in the steerer tube which is not sold with the consumer bikes. Also it has been confirmed some teams use BB inserts. Not the standard set up the consumer gets. As to "what the pros ride" it is what is given to them, remember they are sponsored by the manufacturers.
How much did Froomie pay $$ his Mechanic 2 back up Chris's own thoughts on his Dislike 4 Disk Brakes . Maybe Froomie could sit down with the Shimano Executives 2 share his concerns. And come up with a Solution.
Disk brakes were brought mainly because of carbon wheels and the legal liability they were when in conjunction with rim brakes. The current mechanical issues with disks brakes are not a legal liability. This is where the real gain is !
I don't understand why he uses the things lol!. He owns half of Factor maybe it's a financial thing?. But podjacar seems to be able to use them for mountain stages so why not Chris. Everybody knows or should know that disc brakes were designed to be used with suspension which also takes a lot of the heat away due to heavy duty forks more material etc. Just need more development.
The major reason for disk brakes on mountain bikes is to accommodate the ever widening tires. Road bikes do not have that issue so disk brakes on a road bike is just stupid. I have experienced lockups, and deformation on disk brakes, I can see why Froome hates them. On rim brakes they just work. One possible reason for disk brakes on consumer road bikes is carbon rims, they do not stand up as well as steel, or aluminium to rim brakes, for me anyways.
ive been saying this for years, discs should have stayed on mountain bikes. road bikes are better with rim brakes. we never had problems before but now apparently disc brakes have no problems only rims brakes do
Froome has said multiple times how much he prefers disc over rim. He only rides a disc frame, despite owning the brand and having a choice to ride whatever he wants. MEchanics hate disc, the racers love them. Funny enough, all the mechanics personal bikes are pretty much disc as well.
There is nothing wrong with disc brakes in general. But just take a look at motorcycles and how long it took for them to be really great and funtion without any hassles. I believe manufacturers will need a few more years to solve all the issues and come to a reliable technology. Until then (and maybe even longer) I will stick with the pinchers.
Rim brakes easily lock up the wheels of almost every bike I hsve ever owned..Even my first race bike with suntour superbe pro single pivot on Teton Pass, 11%. One finger lockup with the newer dura ace or ultegra..So where's the advantage of discs there? In the wet? Rim brakes will still easily lock wheels.. because the tire slides easily in the wet. Interesting the analysis of why disc brake road bikes aren't working very well. But it comes down to traction in the end...and of course heat. Brakes simply convert inertia to heat..And hot disc brakes are problematic on ever type vehicle..Have you seen night videos of Le Mans? Descending from Mt Whitnet Portal on carbon tubular ultralight climbing wheels, the road had huge weather cracks, and I was not comfortable subjecting my wheels to my usual freewheeling wind-check riding, so I was alternating between front and back brakes. I recalled some saying you can melt the glue, so I stopped and felt my rims..Ouch! I can't imagine how hot a road disc would have been...The rim brakes worked fine, though. I'll leave the discs for my moto and racecars, my truck fronts and the SUV.. Interestingly, I once built s Porsche racecar, added the factory's biggest rotors to the front, then found that there were some bigger brakes available for the rear
Oops. Anyway, I was going to put those on, too, but my engineering race buddy said "Stupid! More weight and those stock discs you have aren't being effective anyhow because the weight all goes onto the fronts during hard breaking... My front pads were cooked after every weekend..New pads for every event..
I have a rim brake bike and a disc brake bike, both Ultegra and I would have to say the disc brake bike us far better than the rim brakes. Alright, there's a little rub now and again but nothing I would say annoys me.
I love disc brakes on my mountain bike and gravel bike...However really NOT happy with the direction the Industry is taking road bikes. Carbon wheels and Integrated bar/stem combo..lNHOUSE branded to maximize profit. Limited availability of spares a consequence. Poorly made Carbon rims have been problematic with rim brakes,therefore disc brakes. However with skinny tyres disc brakes are not safe..hence the trend for fatter tyres. Bottom Line the bike industry has been taken over by suits. As with all Global Corporations ‘profit over people’ being the mantra. All about Profit. Greed.
I'm from the Netherlands and if I had a choice I would go for rim brakes! And why ? Because disc brakes are worthless in wet weather! The noise they make and the sanding will drive you crazy! Only thing I can think of is that they are better in the mountains . But we don't have those here, so disc brakes are nothing more than dairy cows for the industry. Disc brakes belong on a MTB and rim brakes on a racing bike
Who care about mountain bikes!?! Road and Gravel is where it's at. Rim for road and cable disc for gravel. Cable disc:- stop better than rim, less fuss that hydraulic, and more pad clearance that hydraulic and cheaper 😎
Something that wasn't mentioned was the effect of heat on the RIM with rim based brakes on those 20-30 km downhills at the speeds that the pro Peloton move at. We've had wheel failures on Mount Lemmon. It's a 40 km 5% downhill. Disc brakes excel on this type of ride.
wtf r u smoking??? Mt Lemon’s gradient and disc brakes? ok…smaller diameter equals more concentrated heat…and let’s not even begin the aero flow vortices created by another spinning disc…if YOU WANT TO RIDE DISC…GREAT!!! But do not start talking about ‘race pace’ advantages when comparing them to rim brakes. Tubular carbon RIM BRAKE has no equal on a race bike.
@@glennoc8585 Even tubular wheels are reported to experience delamination issues. The problem is that carbon fiber is not a good heat conductor. There were attempts to embed copper strands into the final layer but that didn't work out well. The only wheels that did work involved either embedding an aluminium track or bonding an aluminium rim to a carbon extender, aka Dura Ace. The advantage tubular wheels have is there are no discernible outward pressures so the tubular doesn't blow out or off the rim.
@@SprayIgniteBoom Read up on what was happening on the alpine descents with carbon wheels with rim brakes. The only reliable system for rim brakes is alloy wheels. That is unless you are riding at speeds less that 20 MPH on the flats and in dry weather. If you are so blessed have at it.
ALSO. Mechanical “LEVERAGE” with respect to WHERE the caliper is located puts MORE stress on the fork which equals MORE MOVEMENT. YES I know what the fack I’m talking about b/c I work around other mechanical engineers who, when asked, think 🤔 it’s a no brainer…let’s not forget that the other LIMFAC is the overall “contact patch” of a road tire is WAAAYYY smaller than a mtb as well….it’s as stupid as comparing F1 cars with RALLY CARS…shut the fack up and ride what u want but mechanical/thermal laws are based on science.
It boggles my mind the tribalism and unwavering and unquestioning defense of the industry in road cycling. If you have an issue with a part or equipment it’s always the riders fault, it funny because I’ve raced for years and worked on my bicycles, cars, and motorcycles extensively and yet evidently I’m a completely incompetent fool only when working on my bicycles right? Disc brakes are functionally a great idea but the industry completely half assed them and just brought a MTB platform over to road and tripled the prices. Anyone with half a brain would realize pad gap was going to need to be improved on a road bike since the descents are longer, speeds are higher, and you don’t have the noise from dirt covering up brake chatter. Variable rate actuated brake master cyclinder would have allowed that (a technology that exists in Motorsport) belts be honest, the cycling industry isn’t going to draw the best engineers in the world in comparison to aerospace, automotive, O&G, etc. people act like this cottage industry is producing F1 level stuff and if you criticize it you’re obviously doing something wrong. It’s nuts, it’s like a cult or something and these brands act surprised when young people get driven away from a sport which requires you to spend thousands on equipment that fails quite consistently and is made poorly.
Last but lot least.... weight! Same bike with disc brakes weights 400-500 grams more, and it is more expensive. Then, to lower the weight, you need to but fancy and even more expensive components! In 2022 You could still find a Canyon Ultimate CF SL 8 (mechanical ultegra) whose weight was 7kg for around 2400 euro. Top notch for price! Now to get a bike with the same weight you need to spend a fortune, I reckon around 5000 or even more.... total nonsense.
Disc brakes yes or no is not my issue. Not having a fair choice is what really p!sses me off! I don't want disc brakes ! Period! But I can't buy the bike I want with rim brakes anymore!
People are way too passionate about this subject. Disc brakes are awesome and rim brakes are awesome. Cyclist are in secure about what type of brakes they have or dont have. They need to justify ones choice by over inflating the poor qaulity of the other type. Its find it funny. One thing is for sure gary is a poor attitude mechanic. If he was more passionate about fixing chris's bike then how shit disc brakes are. Froomies brakes wouldnt make any noise.
well if it's not good enough for Chris Froome, It's not good enough for me. I reckon if he could... He'd also pick a different frame.
Well he owns the company, so might be bad for his bottom line. 😜
I really like Chris but it's not going to make a difference to him now. He can either get results on what he's got or he can't. The sport is bigger than his opinion or that if his mechanic
HELLO HAMBINI FANS!!!
Factor makes rim brake frames.
@@Wildschwein_Jaeger he stopped riding the rim brake version a few years ago
As a bike mechanic I have the utmost respect for team mechanics it's not an easy life.
we want rim brakes.its crazy that we dont have a choice.
That is all we want, CHOICE, even companies that offer them, are special order and some shops in certain countries say they can’t get them. 😞
You do have a choice still from many suppliers of framesets, wheels manufacturers and complete bikes. Depending upon one's age you could buy a stock of parts new or used to see you out until you're 70 odd.
When 95% of your customers dont want rim brakes… whats the point of making them?
@@veloveritas9963 yes good point, IF!
@@veloveritas9963 how do you know this percentage?
I will stop whining about disc brakes when they stop whining at me.
Rim brakes all the way for me. No fuss no rubbing on my road bike. They can stick the Disc brakes where the sun don’t shine. Thanks Wayno.
With a rim brake you have way more circumference to modulate the braking action.
DISC IS A FOUR LETTER WORD
I love Gary's analysis - this is arguably the world's best bike mechanic or at least mechanic to the greatest cycling superstar out.
We do have a choice - I have a Dogma with Rim brakes, I am buying a new Canyon Ultimate with Rim brakes and I have an Allez with Rim brakes, if more people would refuse disc brakes, there would not be this issue of the industry disc-connecting with their consumers.
Looking at Mohoric's horrific crash in the Giro, I think there is strong evidence to say that discs are unsafe because of the torque moment put on the front for during braking, um this is very dangerous; the torque moment on the front fork is leveraged with discs nicely setting you up for a front fork failure which is a death sentence during descending.
Let's be honest - the reason the industry is pushing discs is that they are using discs to justify a premium on the bikes of around 10 to 15% thus the gullible cyclist is buying this and funding the industry to push an inferior option. Dual pivot rim brakes however are totally superior.
DISC IS A FOUR LETTER WORD
Almost no brand produces rim brakes bikes anymore, unless you buy and entry level alluminium or a top notch dogma F.
Wrong - Bianchi, Cannondale, Dolan, Ribble and ofcourse Pinarello are producing rim brake bikes - these bikes are lighter and faster than the disc alternative, - there are a few other brands that produce rim options - just you must be much more careful when you buy a bike nowadays - if you are on discs and get a puncture your race is over, if you are well prepared and on a rim bike, you will be back in the race in under a minute. My opinion of this is that brands are recognizing that more discerning cyclists largely reject DISC options - thus brands are forced to offer rim options or forego market share to other brands with Rim brake options. Pros have pro mechanics to align the discs - consumers don't.
DISC IS A FOUR LETTER WORD LIKE SCAM - DON'T FALL FOR IT, IT IS AN EXPENSIVE SCAM THAT SPELLS TROUBLE
I've been saying this for 5 yrs. Rim brakes need to come back! No question about it.. Real riders that understand every nut and bolts on their bikes know. Many riders just follow trends without understand the tech. They just want whats new and now we are the verge of riding something thats not ment for us. Disc has its place with cyclocross and mountain biking, not for roadys. I respect Gary for coming out publicly and saying that. Hopefully shimano wakes up and recovers from their covid symptoms.
So glad pros and mechanics are speaking the truth about this. The road bike industry doesn’t have many places to go in terms of development. Discs were one of the last biggies and people fell for it…
We didnt fall for anything, a lot of people me include wanted disc brakes
I'm with John on this. I doubt I would go back to rim brakes if I had the option.
I agree. I am still using a 10-speed cassette and shifters because when the manufacturers switched to 11-speed and then switched all of the shift levers to only support 11-speed, it knew it was just a gimmick to make everyone upgrade! I have no problem riding my 10-speed and see no point upgrading to 11. You seem knowledgeable, Totalvulsion. I am sure you're still rock'n 10-speed mech shifting, just like me!
@@donmyers6113 I rode 10 for years until I bought my new bike. The advantage go to an 11 to 34 cassette to make climbing easier for old self. Otherwise, there really wasn't an advantage to me.
@@donmyers6113 Actually it isn't "just 11 speed". The 10-speed Tiagra 4700 shifters work with all Shimano 11-speed RD's. And, all the 11 speed shifters work with the 10-speed Tiagra RD. The issue is "cable pull ratio", if you want to Google it. In fact Tiagra 4700 is the *best* 10-speed shifting there has ever been -- do to the longer cable pull.
This is why I use TRP SLC spyre mechanical calipers with compressionless outer cables, each piston independently returns to its fully retracted position after every single pull of the level! Plus if your wheels are out and you knock or pull the levers it's not an issue. I use 160mm rotors which with mechanical feel similar power to say a hydro 140mm. The one thing I really want is some slightly thicker rotors, most 1.8mm I want 2.2mm as I can like Gary mentioned independently adjust each piston in a matter of seconds, so I can run thicker rotors which means better heat transfer and less chance of warping. But the reason I like discs is because I'm 111kg big old guy who wants carbon wheels and the disc brakes means I can run these wheels without needing alloy Breaking surfaces to handle heat and stop delamination
I'm a cable disc fan too 🙂
@@byrondixon4648 if fitted and set up well with compressionless outers they are 95% the power of full hydro and equal to rim brakes, but better in the wet. Simply reliable 👍
indeed , i also have trp spyre no slc , with compressionless outer , simple to install and to service and almost the same efficiency as hydro
Also, simplicity of rim brakes maintenance should be taken under consideration. They are simply hassle free. Almost everybody is able to maintain them properly. No mechanics needed.
Couldn't agree more with this comment. I'm sticking with rim brakes, external cables, manual shifting, and hand-built aluminum wheels. A bicycle shouldn't be a money pit.
Hassle free perhaps but make sure you don't bust a spoke because rim brakes don't work well backed off on a wobbly rim.
Many of the people in my bike club really like their di2 systems. Guess I'm old school. Shimano 105 11-speed works great for me
That's mainly why I went for rim brakes on the road bike I just ordered, my MTB disk brakes still need some work to get right, at least the front one works though.
@@The86rick Yeah, right. The number of folks on race training rides that have Di2 shifting problems and have to drop out of the ride.... I've heard Cat.1 racers say "I've never won a race due to Di2, but I've certainly lost races due to Di2 problems."
I’ve descended the Grossglöckner road with 25kg of additional weight on my bike. And I was going at around 70kmh. No issue whatsoever. That’s the story of one person of course, but so is the story of Chris Froome. It’s the experience of one person only. In summer I regularly do tours with several thousands of height meter of descents, concentrated on three passes or so. Never had an issue. I’ve descended the Stelvio with rim brakes and disc brakes. With rim brakes I had to take a break two thirds of the way down because the rim brake pads were soft as butter. Did not have the same issue with disc brakes. I agree on the temperature issue. At least you should use 160mm front and back. 140mm is just ridiculous. I’ve assembled several bikes and bled a shit load of brakes. Never had any of the issues mentioned in the video. After very long descents they can rub, yes. But for a short time. As soon as the rotors cool off it’s all good. If the pistons get stuck you are probably not cleaning them before pushing them back in the caliper. Surely the tech can still be improved, I give you that.
Something tells me that Chris has many bicycles of the same exact set up. So he is not sampling one set up. Professional down hill speed can hit triple digits that even the motor bikes can't hang. The skill is in not braking. Tires don't blow because pros use tubular tires that don't have the same heat build up /rim weakness as clincher or tubeless due to the different rim brake location/geometry.
I agree. I weigh considerably more than Froome and I've not had the issues he keeps saying he has. I don't get it. And I also ride and race gravel. Descending mountain gravel roads are way harder on brakes than on a road bike on pavement.
@@Wildschwein_Jaeger if the skill is not braking then they are going very fast which means they have to brake from a very high speed. But also means that the brakes have a long time to cool down between braking. An average cycle tourist that descends an alpine pass with the brakes mostly on is very likely stressing the system more. This is what I used to do often and never had the same issues as mentioned in the video. I'm not saying I'm a better mechanic than Gary, but I do take great care of my bike, especially the brakes.
I don't think I've ever thought: I wish my brakes worked better
I've said this elsewhere. I am 105kg plus. Not fat, heavy. I have much experience in far more complex stuff than bikes, I know how to set up stuff. My one disc bike is Shimano Hydraulic 2 x 160. It is my tour/ gravel bike and I live in a very, very hilly area. The discs fade, period. At the bottom of a couple of mile decent circa 40mph max I am having serious fade. My road bikes with rim and Campag pads not so. Maybe 180 rotors, but as is, not good enough.
Interesting comment, thanks for letting us know your experience. 👍
valid points :) Although I'm very much a fan of disc brakes on road bikes, but I can appreciate the points made. Hopefully some improvement can be made with regards to pad clearance. More movement initially, followed by more force. Shimano calls it "servo-wave" on its MTB range, but it can be improved even more.
So common crashes in the pro peloton right now is caused by too powerful (difficult to modulate) disc brakes and not by newbies in the peloton as some people claim it to be in order to protect the interest of the manufacturers.
I find disc brakes no more powerful than rim. They probably just get grabby due to excessive heat build up.
Those “newbies” still have incredible bike skills, I think to blame the rider there is Ummmm well……..
@@ThePaulKat Then why is it still being forced to be used in the pro peloton if it has a tendency to be "grabby" causing the tires to lose traction and the eventual crash inside the peloton?
Not to mention that some manufacturers are forcing disc brakes to consumers by no longer making rim brakes.
It doesn't make sense doesn't it?
Alberto Contador rode 270kms a couple of days ago on his Strava. He averaged 35kmh and descended to a speed of 92kmh on his disc brake bike. He didn't come off from over braking but I'm sure he used those brakes.
At just over 50km to go at the Tour de Romandie a while ago, another crash in the peloton and Matt Stephens is commentating that one cause of recent crashes is on the modulation of disc brakes catching the riders by surprise.
So this is an open secret within the pro peloton and it looks like only Chris Froome is doing something about it to force the manufacturers to ramp up the development of disc brakes.
So in its' current state, disc brakes for road bikes is not better than rim brakes. It is still under developed yet it costs an arm and a leg in the upper tier of the groupsets.
Great vid! Could hydro rim brakes make a come back for road? Given alot of new riders are getting a gravel/allroad bike as their first bike more and more I also wonder will pure road racing become more niche over time, and marketing folks from sram/shimano etc can lean into that and relaunch hydro rim brakes for this 'niche 100% performance option' ?
I hope that something happens, or I will be buying secondhand bikes.
Hydraulic rim brakes would be nice as it would give an easier lever feel. The problem is it would be extremely easy to Lock up hydraulic rim brakes without some sort of pressure relief anti lock built in. Disc us actually better for modulating as it's less efficient as rim and that's why it's great in hydraulic but pretty lousy as cable.
When they tried it, they didn't sell. So, I doubt it
One reason why I have linux as the only operatingsystem in my computer already over 10 years, is because I have freedom to chose for everything. Not just what web browser I use or something. But also desktop environment. I have xfce by the way and distribution is Arch linux. So I select everything by my self.
I want to have more choices also when I select braking system and gearing and everything for my bicycle. I understand, that the same flexibility that is easy to implement foe software can't be transferred to hardware, because manufacturing cost, but. At least brake system, like disc or rim, that choice should keep. Also I wonder how much it really cost to manufacture the disc brake calipers. I understand they need to polish the cylinders where pistons move, or maybe they don't? It seems, there are stretchable seals that seal it and there is only little movement when the brake pads and rotors wear, the piston move little bit further, so it does not have to be so perfect, just enough to seal it. Otherwise the seal stretch and that same stretching power also pull the piston back inside, when you release the brake lever. I don't know how it's done on the other end at brake lever. There I guess the pistons are much smaller and move longer. So there probably is little more polishing needed. But overall. It seems to me that hydraulic discbrakes are very cheap to manufacture, because they have so few components. Maybe the rotors actually are the most expensive parts? But because often they don't make even those to perfection, it's probably really cheap to manufacture them.
@@drooghead yet you're phone or of is updated for you to post on the UA-cam forums? Progress 😁
@@glennoc8585 English much?
Thank You for such a clear explanation about this controversial issue of disc brake on road bikes.
P.S. Subscribed. I appreciated the "Hearts" to my comments and love supporting small but growing, independent UA-camrs who make the effort to stay connected to their community. 👏👍🙌👊
Thank you
This is what I have been saying for years. But nobody listened, customers just buy what the marketing departments say.
I hear that the Campagnolo disc brakes perform better regarding the rotor rub and overheating, due to a different return spring and piston design (from Magura). It would interesting to hear feedback about this. Thanks for another great video.
I have heard people praise the campy disc brakes, but i have had no experience using them, so if i commented, it would be pure speculation.
I would say they still suffer from the same problems with all the issues as do all the other brands would, alignment, fork fittment, hub accuracy, frame finish, wheel construction, etc. Because disc need to have every associated component made to tight tolerances, and this is a problem in the bike industry. Their QC is poor.
They work better than Shimano or Sram (i have all of them). They still add a few watts of drag and a couple hundred grams to the bike. Which is ridiculous on a race machine which is only made for speed.
Also the campy rim brakes on the campy carbon brake track work exactly same strong. I can block any wheel at any time with them if i try. Braking power on road bikes is actually more limited by the tire than by the braking system.
As a customer i tried very hard to order a dogma f in rim. Impossible here in germany. Disc or nothing. So i went with the disc.
So of corse we are forced to buy a subpar braking system, if we desire new bikes. Sad but true.
Everything else is just a lie
@@jadawinblack1555yes someone gets it it's the size of the tyre's contact patch that limits braking not the implement used to brake.
I have Ekar components x 1 yr. The DBs are way better than rim brakes on gravel (and road). I’ve ridden Campy since I started racing & used their road DBs for 2 yrs. No real problems. Just switched to DA Di2 12, but have yet to ride the group!
Hadn't thought about how disc brakes on non-suspended road bikes would be much more susceptible to pad alignment issues and squeaking from constant deformation of the fork under rough riding conditions and hard braking. Thanks for the informative video. Miss Froome being at the top. Really thought he might be the next TdF 5-time winner, but accidents happen.
Yeah, i think his injuries where significant and just couldn't get back the cycle of that high end fitness training.
Wayne's content is not anti disk brake. He simply argues that professional racing bicycles only need rim brakes. You can put whatever style of brakes you want on your road bicycle as a matter of personal choice. However the industry marketing has decided that professional racing will use disk brakes to market the to the public. This has reduced consumer choice as most new bicycles are disk brake only. Disk brakes for road bicycles are not technically mature. They do not provide enough problem solving to justify them as a replacement for rim brakes in the professional pelton. Disk brakes have created problems where there was none. Disks brakes are mature enough for the casual non professional road cyclist. They pose a challenge to properly maintain for everyone, consumers up to and including professional mechanics. Things done in the name of progress don't always make things better.
@@The86rick You forget many people either can’t or will not change a tube. Off to the bike shop. It is not to do with rocket science, it is making a simple bicycle like a car, for the newer generation it needs to be serviced. All this does is discourage people from using a bicycle as a active form of commuting and exercise. It eventually ends up sitting in the garage, hanging somewhere.
@@The86rick False cause argument you make. Professional mechanics have challenges with disk brakes. No one expects an non mechanically inclined individual to perform maintenance at a professional mechanic level if at all. That is why LBS stay in business. But even for the mechanically inclined with the knack, some jobs are not worth the cost of a specialist tool. How often do you ream out and resize a seat tube? How do you expect that a LBS or back yard mechanic with less access to the manufacturer will perform maintenence better than a professional mechanic? Main point is if a pro mechanic says they are hard to keep in tune because the technology is not ripe. He may have a valid argument.
Froome: rants on disc brakes
disc brake noobs: "his mechanic doesnt know how to set-up brakes properly"
Froome's mechanic: comments on disc brakes
disc brake noobs: "theyre blaming the equipment because Froome isnt winning anymore"
LoLoL 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Yeah says the armchair cyclist. 🤔
One aspect of disc in pro cycling never brought up, perhaps due to lack of awareness is upon a wheel change the rider is now on a rotor which requires "bedding". Therefore more than likely the rider will surprisingly experience immediate sub par braking performance.
Road disc needs more oil volume in the system with more space in the lever reservoir and more caliper piston space to retract more but that means more weight.
Yep, it can def be fixed, but it would be heavy and less aero.
I agree with all of it. However I switched to discs and I'm not coming back. I just can't cope with the thought of disposable carbon rims. I raced on my carbon rim brake clinchers under torrential rain and as a consequence I could visually see the brake track starting to get eaten by the grimy pads in a single day of racing. When you own high end wheels, it is really a sad experience. That was the day I made the switch.
I can totally relate to this! I love rim brakes and the 'fighter jet' sound of braking on them, but unfortunally the rims to wear away and become very pricy!!
I'm a huge fan of rim brakes but without a doubt, carbon wheels equate to disk brakes. But I'm one who still think that considering the use I do and my talent, carbon wheels are a waste of money. I prefer to ride aluminum wheels and spend my money on living new experience i.e. riding in new regions, areas or countries.
Lest stuff, more life !
I'm guessing that the weight saved by carbon rims is more than offset by the increased weight of the discs. Also there's hardly any weight difference between high end carbon and alloy wheels.
@@therainbowgulag. I agree if you're a weight weenie and a mountain goat, not my case though :) I'm looking for more than just weight in a carbon wheelset.
I like that disc brakes have allowed me to put wider tires inside the frame. My rim brake bike only takes up to 25mm tires while my disc brake takes up to 32mm.
Great video and points, disc brakes are great on my MTB with it's wide grippy tyres but rim brakes do the job on my road bikes. Problems with rim brakes can normally be sorted on the ride, even on the fly, but discs need more work when they go wrong.
Excellent analysis
Customers have been asking for disc brakes for years before they finally came on the market. Most customers love them. Easy maintenance, lot's of braking power. The annoying thing is that the influence of the weight weenies compromised the execution of the current disc brake designs. Discs are to light, brake handles are not adjustable enough, manufacturers use a laddering up to create price differentiation for functionality that costs cents, true floating discs with auto centering are not out there yet, regressive engagement to allow higher clearance also not designed, ... incompetence.
Easy maintenance... well...
@@tcm052 I came here to comment but see you have beat me to the punch. Disc brakes are many things. But easy maintenance is not one of them.
Sono felice che vada di moda il freno a disco così adesso posso permettermi il top delle bici con freni rim 😂
One other point is the stopping power of the disc is higher than what is possible with tiny 25 mm tires and very little contact on the road with a very light bike. I am surprised we haven't seen more crashes because of this. I watched a kid in my neighborhood apply too much brake on his bike and it launched him over the bars...very scary. Also I have never seen a test with a high end rim brake bike vs a high end disc brake bike and how much better disc brake stopping power is on actual road conditions on actual bikes. I think the improved stopping power is more theory than reality in the real world. I nearly ran off the road on my disc brake bike because I was expecting it to stop faster than it did when wet. I had the same delay (one rotation of the wheel) as on my rim brake bike.
Interesting, thanks for the info and comment. 👍
Fascinating. In this excerpt, around 2:10, Mr Blem does make another comment: more crashes in the peleton. Interestingly, Johan Bruyneel made a similar point to perplexed Armstrong and Hincapie in their Wedü postcast for the 2021 TdF.
As a light randonneur, breaking down a day's ride away from sleeping quarters with no competent mechanic nearby is my primary fear, so i obsess about reliability, which in first approximation equates to simplicity and a few other things. I am quite content with my 50-40 year old relics, but if i were to have a bespoke bicycle made for me today, it would not have disc brakes either, if only because i am partial to old-fashioned, bent, springy, steel forks ;)
On other thing, carbon frames have been in the one kilogram range for years. Until the UCI lowers the requirements for allowed weight, most bikes in the pro Peloton actually have to have weight added to make the minimum standard. It's been this way since the mid 2010 period. One team mechanic was quoted for making comments about how they were filling the Shimano Hollowtech cranks so the bike would make weight. Adding 300 to 400 grams of weight has made it easier to make the minimums. And there have been no frame failures for years. However, a recent series of wheel failures is quite interesting. Maybe looking into why wheels failed during the Spring Classics would prove interesting. BTW, one of our cyclists had a spectacular front wheel failure which cycled him in and out of hospital several times. He was on new wheels at the time as well.
Done vids about wheels, this is one of the forced changes by disc brakes.
Also with weight, they only added weight when it was rim brakes, with disc they are struggling to meet the weight limit.
Frame manufacturers are now using EPS technology to get the frames lighter.
@@waynosfotos Interesting as they had the weight below 6.5 Kg on a routine basis. If discs add 300 to 400 grams keeping the weight at 6.8 to 7 Kg shouldn't be that difficult.
From what I understand, and I don’t own any high end bikes, the weight limit can be reached fairly easily (eg. Specialized Aethos) but more of the carbon material is used to reinforce the disc break system and the bike is not stiff enough for world tour racing.
@@brandonguz Hmmm. I thought one of the advantages to the S-Works was its level of refined compliance. Adding the discs shouldn't have changed this a great deal as they are added to normally reinforced areas. I would be concerned if they mounted halfway up the stays or forks like cantilever brakes appear to do.
At 9:30 you say that since you generate less force on a large disc, then less heat is therefore generated. But larger discs have larger translational velocity such that the stopping power is the same as with small disc.
You are right that larger discs can of course dissipate the generated heat better and therefore they cool faster.
Yeah that was a slip of the tongue, it is the same energy and heat to dissappate. Sorry if that was a slip of the tongue. Good pickup. 👍
Nice video! Your channel is a spark of light into the darkness...keep doing that. cheers
Thanks mate 👍
You hit the nail om the head,all we want is a choice rim or disc we decide what we buy,for me i have 3 rim brake bikes and 1 disc,i can say that my rim brakes brake better in wet or dry weather,because i use swiss stop pads on my carbon rims,discs make a lot of noise in the wet and in all honesty are not that good. I dont particularly like Durianrider but he has always said disc for dirt rim for road and he is correct.
I think a lot of people don't understand DR. A lot of the time he is trolling. He has a black sense of humour i do believe not many get.
I have two new-ish road bikes, one with disc one with rim. I'll say that I've had a positive disc experience. I've had none of the problems people often cite and I definitely appreciate the added confidence (actually braking ability who knows) when descending switchbacks. That said, I will continue to buy rim brake bikes as long as I'm able to simply because the benefits of disc brakes (when they work as advertised, as mine admittedly do) do not outweigh the added hassle of servicing them nor the extra weight and aero penalty to me.
Where do you live and what type of riding do you do?
Instead of trying to lure me into some trap trick question, just come out with your point. Surely if whatever you're going to say is relevant it hardly matters what I answer, right?
For most people aero is literally a joke. Your body us the majority of the resistance. Adding .001 cDA to your air resistance is a small amount when you could loose .1 by just riding in a better position...
@@NikeonaBike I have been racing cycling for 30 years now and I’ve represented two different countries in triathlon and cycling. I currently own 14 bicycles which range from 1980’s to 2022 models one of them is a gravel racer with discs and my newest one is a disk road bike. Why I asked about the area you ride in makes a big difference because some areas are flat whereas the area I’m currently in is extremely hilly with extremely fast descents. For me both disc and rim brakes are very similar in the dry but discs trump rim brakes in the wet. On Saturday I took part in 140 km race which had a 6 km decent and we were reaching speeds of 90 km/h.
This was the first issue I’ve had on discs since riding with them on my mountain bikes for years. The front disc I warped quite severely on the descend and I had to ride the last 11 km with the buckled disc.Not sure the pros would be happy with that.
There were plenty of riders with over cooked calipers along the route.
Paul components make some awesome cable disc brakes and may consider getting a set of them as you can loosen the spacing of the pads and it has a alignment screw👍
@@BrettinLux Did you apply the brakes a lot at once or feather them? By my quick math you would be about four minutes to cover 6 km at 90 km/hrs. That seems like a short time to warp a rotor.
Aaron Gate (NZL / Black Spoke Pro Cycling) won the 2022 Commonwealth Games Road Race on rim brakes. Just saying.
I much prefer disc brakes, but I'd probably hate them if I was a team mechanic. They have always had to work their buts off and discs are more work to setup and maintain.
The current crop of “road discs” are not really up to the job, 140mm rotors and single piston FLAT mount standard callipers will always have issues when racing. Couple this to poor standards of manufacturing across virtually all frames then you have an issue. My road bikes have rim brakes - and I built these up AFTER having MTBs and all road bikes with discs. My All road bikes do have discs (Paul Klampers) with 180mm rotors on the front and 160mm on the back. I have had to face the brake mounts on both of the frames to get the right fit for the brakes. If you race and are a weight weeny then I would stay with rims while you can. If you are more at home with a few hundred extra grams then with a bit of work (hope 4 pots with 180mm callipers on all the main manufacturers road sets now) you can get brakes that don’t overheat or squeak. At the end of the day if you ride somewhere nice dry and sunny with smooth roads then you can use rim brakes to your hearts content (whilst you can still get them) if you live somewhere wet with poor roads (like the U.K.) then the right disc set up pays off. The majority of manufacturers still have a way to go with this tech, and shoddy standards and poor manufacturers QA is not helping the cyclist 🚴♀️
I learnt something today! thanks mate!
Well said Chris. and this mechanic knows.. Because of health problems, I would love to buy a good quality E road bike, but I'm not paying £4,000 + for something that I don't like, or not given given a choice.
Personally I think that manufacturers should provide the consumer with the option of disc or rim brakes. Without this option in the high-end market, how are we to know what people really want to ride
Love my hydraulic disc brakes, rider in front of me crashed. Disc brake's powerful braking stopped me from running over him.
Well presented. 👏👏👏
I can't reliability say for disc brakes as I do not have enough range of experience. But I can say that in my experience using about a dozen different brands of rim brake pads that the functionality of rim brakes varies significantly with choice of pads. Kool Stop Dual Surface brake pads with their integrated plow that quickly removes debris and water have proven to provide superior braking over a wide range of weather condition for me and are my pad of choice. I mention this because when comparing disc brakes to rim brakes I think the choice of rim brake pad used is of critical importance. I am unaware of any tests comparing the two braking systems where the the tester has sufficiently accounted for this factor.
You’re definitely speaking every Cyclist’s mind, great work.
Not every cyclist
@@johnlewsey4458 eventually it will be, I believe the end user should always have to choice of what he/she wants to buy, and the only reason I said that is because the bike industry is pushing for a certain design and eliminating the other one which I feel has really no design flaws. The flaws are in the rim construction.
"The speed of the Palaton has gone up" sure sure that's why those boys from the 1963 race 🏁 still hold the speed on record for now for that Race. Hmm 🤔
Im an old roadie. I just want a simple classic road bike (mine are Lynskeys one grouped in sram red another in campy athena just cleanse the palate :) Im never going to need a pro road rig, the pros can have their discs, I can build a new wheel when the brake track wears. Its more fun than tinkering with the hydraulics or chasing squeaks every few days.
The pro cyclist's does not have the time to relined the disc brakes when there is race going on.. it is a waste of time with rim brakes even if a pro cyclist has flat tire it can be replaced buy new wheel and you just take off right way with no problem
Am I the only one who didn’t know there is a rim brake version of the new 12 speed Ultegra? I thought it was only going to be disc?!
Yes there is, but it uses the old shifters, so a half new groupset.
Half new is better than No new!
@@waynosfotos was there anything wrong with those shifters ....NO....... And whoever suggested hyrdo Rim brakes seriously get REAL..... Bikes are meant to simply your life not complicate things..... there is absolutely nothing wrong with cable actuated brakes or gears for that matter.
@@Steve-jo3cl i was just saying, shimano didn’t develop new shifters for Rim 12 speed.
@@waynosfotos it requires brand new shifters, you can NOT use 11 speed di2 shifters with the group. They have a different shape and wires used.
Team Jumbo Visma's losses this year can be attributed to them using heavy af Crapvelo Diskbrake Frames. Wout van Aert & Roglic's superhuman performances are already terribly nerfed/ weakened by their bikes alone.
Rims4theWin.
Froome's mechanic summed things up well while IMHO nothing much other than running time was added by the creator of the rest of it. One really needs to wonder about how great stuff is when some of the best technicians can't keep the best equipment performing to the riders' satisfaction despite an almost unlimited budget,, truck full of parts, follow-car with spare bikes, etc.
Does Mr. (or Mrs.) average cyclist really have more fun on a bike that's more like an F1 car when it comes to setup and maintenance vs an entirely mechanical one with gears and braking controlled by simple, cheap and reliable cables and no batteries to charge?
Spot on!
Unlike my disc brakes, Gary’s accent sounds smooth and not at all grating😐.
As a former pro mech for woman's uci world tour team sho-aire 2012 and an amateur road racer, this topic is one that needs more attention. Road disc was not ready and may never be. Just like road tubeless, insanely wide internal width on rims, low pressures, hookless, etc.............This is all going to come back around and they will become out of fashion and there will be all kinds of hurt feelings and embarrassment. Riders should decide what is safe and what they want. Disc brakes on road racing bikes is ridiculous.
Thanks for the experience shared. 👍
When a 4x TDF winner and a pro mechanic speaks about bikes you shut your mouth and just listen
Well, i still hear armchair cyclists debunking their comments.
Legendary Froome and his mechanic expressed it's marketing hype, but disc fanboys are still worshipping discs and applauding for brands eliminating rim brake frames brutally
don’t believe the comment about pros putting so much stress on them during descents - pros go faster on descents and are lighter both of which mean less braking … so amateurs on mountains put more strain on brakes than pros. As to why rims are disappearing - we don’t want to buy them , it’s that simple
No one spotted the elephant in the room? - The bike on top of the front left hand side of the team car was rim brake 🤣
I did 😁
Looking at Alberto Contadors Strava from a few days ago he did a 270 km ride with his mates averaging 35 kmh and a top speed of 92 kmh. He rides a disc brake bike. He rides almost daily and doesn't lock it up. So is it disc brakes or....
Key: Does not use brakes.
@@Wildschwein_Jaeger that's almost possible too. You could wonder why he doesn't sell rim brake bikes.
Gary Blem is right and I want to add that it becomes a real nightmare when you add integrated handlebars/stem combo. Want to change your stem or handlebars? Mmmm
Gary’s right , racing as opposed to what even a good club rider can put the bike through is very different. It’s such a specific thing.
Moto Gp bikes have carbon rotors that just wouldn’t work on the road .
Give the rider what he wants , simple as that!
Marketing has such a negative impact on what people think they need .
I love discs , but I can’t ride like a pro 😅
Bike industry - we are adding discs, wider tyres, bigger clearances, 1x drivetrains.
So mountain bikes then.
I use an ex-pro mechanic when necessary and there simply is no comparison with a normal shop mechanic or very good home mechanic. So anyone criticizing these people simply doesn't know what they're talking about. In what world does stopping faster make you ride faster?
I was 100% with you until the "In what world does stopping faster make you ride faster?" - I'd have to guess you simply don't live or ride anywhere with mountains.
@@lastfm4477 - Well perhaps you ride a different kind of climb than I do. According to my Garmin, in the last 12 months I've climbed 148,000 feet with grades up to 14%. Even if you are using metric that's 46,000 meter isn't it? Before covid-19 lockdowns I did twice that. And I am 77 years old now. What sort of climbing do you do that being able to get thrown over the handlebars or sliding your wheels our from under you improves your ride?
@@tomkunich9401 - Re-reading that it sounds a little smart-assed. It wasn't meant to be that way. The dangers of disk brakes locking up and pulling your wheels out from under you or throwing you over the handlebars as you're beginning to hit the brakes and suddenly hit a very rough patch are very real. I ride hard enough that these things have happened to me. To the point that I am an ardent supporter of rim brakes again. Disk brakes are quite nice on MTB's because you seldom have enough traction or weight distribution to toss you. But on a CX bike with disks on a very steep dirt descent I was thrown so far in the air that I had time to turn my body around and land with very little injury before that damned bike came down on me. Here I am laying under that mess and an onlooker says, "Are you OK?" I responded with "AM I OK???" and it rang off the surrounding mountain sides echoing for 10 seconds. Yep, rim brakes for me.
Just give me one single millimeter more room between pads and disc, and all problems will be gone ... I stick to rim brakes until this is fixed.
There is nothing wrong with rim brakes or disc brakes and they work just fine. Professional cycling teams should ask themselves whether the products they use are still suitable for the high competition level.
The products they use are not much different from those we all can buy.
With regard to the disc brakes, I think that the major bicycle brands do not have the expertise to perform at this professional cycling level. It takes companies like Brembo or Nissin to solve Gary Blem's problems. In road racing we had the same discussion in the late 60s early 70s regarding rim brakes and disc brakes.
Just to let you know, the bikes the pros ride are modified for the pro circuit.
A clear example which was revealed was the Specialized SL7 pro bike, it has a aluminium shaft insert in the steerer tube which is not sold with the consumer bikes. Also it has been confirmed some teams use BB inserts. Not the standard set up the consumer gets.
As to "what the pros ride" it is what is given to them, remember they are sponsored by the manufacturers.
im glad ive never fell for that shit on my road bike
It’s easier to change pads on rim brakes
For sure, and to travel with rim brake bikes (i.e. air travel)
How much did Froomie pay $$ his Mechanic 2 back up Chris's own thoughts on his Dislike 4 Disk Brakes . Maybe Froomie could sit down with the Shimano Executives 2 share his concerns. And come up with a Solution.
The manufacturer will overrule the rider and the mechanic.
Disk brakes were brought mainly because of carbon wheels and the legal liability they were when in conjunction with rim brakes.
The current mechanical issues with disks brakes are not a legal liability. This is where the real gain is !
Spot on.
I don't understand why he uses the things lol!. He owns half of Factor maybe it's a financial thing?. But podjacar seems to be able to use them for mountain stages so why not Chris. Everybody knows or should know that disc brakes were designed to be used with suspension which also takes a lot of the heat away due to heavy duty forks more material etc. Just need more development.
The major reason for disk brakes on mountain bikes is to accommodate the ever widening tires.
Road bikes do not have that issue so disk brakes on a road bike is just stupid.
I have experienced lockups, and deformation on disk brakes, I can see why Froome hates them. On rim brakes they just work.
One possible reason for disk brakes on consumer road bikes is carbon rims, they do not stand up as well as steel, or aluminium to rim brakes, for me anyways.
anytime the powers that be tell you that you need to use something ...you better do your research...marketing is what it's all about
ive been saying this for years, discs should have stayed on mountain bikes. road bikes are better with rim brakes. we never had problems before but now apparently disc brakes have no problems only rims brakes do
It is about marketing
And so the DISC-ussion continues
Froome has said multiple times how much he prefers disc over rim. He only rides a disc frame, despite owning the brand and having a choice to ride whatever he wants. MEchanics hate disc, the racers love them. Funny enough, all the mechanics personal bikes are pretty much disc as well.
You mean rim over disk.
@@Wildschwein_Jaeger No, hes specially says he prefers DISC brakes. he just complains about their short comings, as we all do.
There is nothing wrong with disc brakes in general. But just take a look at motorcycles and how long it took for them to be really great and funtion without any hassles. I believe manufacturers will need a few more years to solve all the issues and come to a reliable technology. Until then (and maybe even longer) I will stick with the pinchers.
Rim brakes easily lock up the wheels of almost every bike I hsve ever owned..Even my first race bike with suntour superbe pro single pivot on Teton Pass, 11%.
One finger lockup with the newer dura ace or ultegra..So where's the advantage of discs there? In the wet? Rim brakes will still easily lock wheels.. because the tire slides easily in the wet.
Interesting the analysis of why disc brake road bikes aren't working very well. But it comes down to traction in the end...and of course heat. Brakes simply convert inertia to heat..And hot disc brakes are problematic on ever type vehicle..Have you seen night videos of Le Mans?
Descending from Mt Whitnet Portal on carbon tubular ultralight climbing wheels, the road had huge weather cracks, and I was not comfortable subjecting my wheels to my usual freewheeling wind-check riding, so I was alternating between front and back brakes. I recalled some saying you can melt the glue, so I stopped and felt my rims..Ouch! I can't imagine how hot a road disc would have been...The rim brakes worked fine, though.
I'll leave the discs for my moto and racecars, my truck fronts and the SUV..
Interestingly, I once built s Porsche racecar, added the factory's biggest rotors to the front, then found that there were some bigger brakes available for the rear
Oops. Anyway, I was going to put those on, too, but my engineering race buddy said "Stupid! More weight and those stock discs you have aren't being effective anyhow because the weight all goes onto the fronts during hard breaking...
My front pads were cooked after every weekend..New pads for every event..
I have a rim brake bike and a disc brake bike, both Ultegra and I would have to say the disc brake bike us far better than the rim brakes. Alright, there's a little rub now and again but nothing I would say annoys me.
I love disc brakes on my mountain bike and gravel bike...However really NOT happy with the direction the Industry is taking road bikes. Carbon wheels and Integrated bar/stem combo..lNHOUSE branded to maximize profit. Limited availability of spares a consequence. Poorly made Carbon rims have been problematic with rim brakes,therefore disc brakes. However with skinny tyres disc brakes are not safe..hence the trend for fatter tyres. Bottom Line the bike industry has been taken over by suits. As with all Global Corporations ‘profit over people’ being the mantra. All about Profit. Greed.
Not sure why skinny tires are not safe with disc brakes. Put almost 10k miles with that setup riding steep hills and feels very safe to me.
I'm from the Netherlands and if I had a choice I would go for rim brakes! And why ? Because disc brakes are worthless in wet weather! The noise they make and the sanding will drive you crazy! Only thing I can think of is that they are better in the mountains . But we don't have those here, so disc brakes are nothing more than dairy cows for the industry. Disc brakes belong on a MTB and rim brakes on a racing bike
It's all about money. Disc brakes makers pay a lot of money to uci so rim brakes will not be use on uci sanction races.
Who care about mountain bikes!?! Road and Gravel is where it's at. Rim for road and cable disc for gravel. Cable disc:- stop better than rim, less fuss that hydraulic, and more pad clearance that hydraulic and cheaper 😎
what'up.Yeah, you made unreal sharin-g see you later, 😍
Something that wasn't mentioned was the effect of heat on the RIM with rim based brakes on those 20-30 km downhills at the speeds that the pro Peloton move at. We've had wheel failures on Mount Lemmon. It's a 40 km 5% downhill. Disc brakes excel on this type of ride.
Rim brakes on carbon in the dry work well but you should use tubulars if going high speeds for a long time.
wtf r u smoking??? Mt Lemon’s gradient and disc brakes? ok…smaller diameter equals more concentrated heat…and let’s not even begin the aero flow vortices created by another spinning disc…if YOU WANT TO RIDE DISC…GREAT!!! But do not start talking about ‘race pace’ advantages when comparing them to rim brakes. Tubular carbon RIM BRAKE has no equal on a race bike.
@@glennoc8585 Even tubular wheels are reported to experience delamination issues. The problem is that carbon fiber is not a good heat conductor. There were attempts to embed copper strands into the final layer but that didn't work out well. The only wheels that did work involved either embedding an aluminium track or bonding an aluminium rim to a carbon extender, aka Dura Ace. The advantage tubular wheels have is there are no discernible outward pressures so the tubular doesn't blow out or off the rim.
@@SprayIgniteBoom Read up on what was happening on the alpine descents with carbon wheels with rim brakes. The only reliable system for rim brakes is alloy wheels. That is unless you are riding at speeds less that 20 MPH on the flats and in dry weather. If you are so blessed have at it.
Maybe plastic wheels aren't a good idea.
Chris Frome is literally the part owner of factor. if he wants rims he can have them for sure. He needs to train harder to be relevant again
ALSO. Mechanical “LEVERAGE” with respect to WHERE the caliper is located puts MORE stress on the fork which equals MORE MOVEMENT. YES I know what the fack I’m talking about b/c I work around other mechanical engineers who, when asked, think 🤔 it’s a no brainer…let’s not forget that the other LIMFAC is the overall “contact patch” of a road tire is WAAAYYY smaller than a mtb as well….it’s as stupid as comparing F1 cars with RALLY CARS…shut the fack up and ride what u want but mechanical/thermal laws are based on science.
would not buy a new road bike just to have disc brakes. if you want the lightest climbing bike, rim brakes!
It boggles my mind the tribalism and unwavering and unquestioning defense of the industry in road cycling. If you have an issue with a part or equipment it’s always the riders fault, it funny because I’ve raced for years and worked on my bicycles, cars, and motorcycles extensively and yet evidently I’m a completely incompetent fool only when working on my bicycles right? Disc brakes are functionally a great idea but the industry completely half assed them and just brought a MTB platform over to road and tripled the prices. Anyone with half a brain would realize pad gap was going to need to be improved on a road bike since the descents are longer, speeds are higher, and you don’t have the noise from dirt covering up brake chatter. Variable rate actuated brake master cyclinder would have allowed that (a technology that exists in Motorsport) belts be honest, the cycling industry isn’t going to draw the best engineers in the world in comparison to aerospace, automotive, O&G, etc. people act like this cottage industry is producing F1 level stuff and if you criticize it you’re obviously doing something wrong. It’s nuts, it’s like a cult or something and these brands act surprised when young people get driven away from a sport which requires you to spend thousands on equipment that fails quite consistently and is made poorly.
The main evil of disc brakes in the pro peleton is the multi pile ups each time because of instant stopping, and the career's halved or denuded.
Last but lot least.... weight! Same bike with disc brakes weights 400-500 grams more, and it is more expensive. Then, to lower the weight, you need to but fancy and even more expensive components!
In 2022 You could still find a Canyon Ultimate CF SL 8 (mechanical ultegra) whose weight was 7kg for around 2400 euro. Top notch for price!
Now to get a bike with the same weight you need to spend a fortune, I reckon around 5000 or even more.... total nonsense.
Save the rim.
#savetherimbrake
Great work Waynos!
Disc brakes yes or no is not my issue. Not having a fair choice is what really p!sses me off! I don't want disc brakes ! Period! But I can't buy the bike I want with rim brakes anymore!
People are way too passionate about this subject. Disc brakes are awesome and rim brakes are awesome. Cyclist are in secure about what type of brakes they have or dont have. They need to justify ones choice by over inflating the poor qaulity of the other type. Its find it funny. One thing is for sure gary is a poor attitude mechanic. If he was more passionate about fixing chris's bike then how shit disc brakes are. Froomies brakes wouldnt make any noise.