No? A disc brake is just as easy to maintain as a rim brake. You just throw your bike to the mechanic, and pick it up an hour or two later. How difficult is that? Walking to the bike mechanic with a rim half a decade ago, isn’t any easier compared to walking there with my now disc brake bike.
Yeah, I'm with Neil. I've got two bikes with rims and one with discs. And my discs rub and squeal. And I just haven't had the time or patience to dig into it. I also don't want to deal with brake fluid! I love my rims because they're EASY to maintain/adjust, and pads are cheap and easy to switch out when worn. Also, if I'm in a crunch, I can just take some sandpaper and rough them up a bit. Yes, discs are stronger, but I'm not a big guy. Rims all the way.
I've been on rim brakes for 23 years and never had an issue to include in the wet. I used to live south of the Alps and the majority of my races and Granfondos I entered had mountains and my rim brakes never failed or had me in a bad situation. Even though flying down mountains is behind me, along with my youth, I still get the bike out in the wet and descend well with my rim brakes. I do have to say wheel tech for climchers have come a long way though. I currently use HED wheels (Jet RC4 Black and Ardennes RA Black) with their "Black Turbine brake technology" which they say reduces stopping distance in the wet by 70% and in the dry by 25%. I don't know about the percentages but they are great clinchers that perform better than any other wheelsets I've owned (Campy, Fulcrum, Kinlin, DT Swiss, Mavic, Reynolds, etc.). I tried disc brakes on a CAAD 10 I bought and sold and wasn't overwhelmed.
I've used rim brakes all my life, then tried hydraulic disc brakes. Brake feel is so much better that i am not going to go back to rim brakes, ever. But that's just me.
"Issue" here might mean just few meters of braking distance less. Simple fact, that what offered rim brakes was sufficient for you each time you needed them the most does not mean that it is superior to hydraulic brakes
Probably the biggest advantage of disc brakes is that the don't restrict tire size to 25 or 28C in width. Some may not care about that, but I now run 32C as my road tires and 42C as my gravel tires, both on the same disc brake bike. Roads where I live or awful and going wider has made a huge difference in comfort and flat reduction.
Agree and definitely worth mentioning. Most rim brake frames will take a 25c tyre ok, but going above that to 28c for a lot of them is a no go, even on frames built relatively recently. Usually the problem is the lack of clearance at the chain stays. I’ve got 3 rim brake road bikes but I am going to be selling one of them shortly to buy a disc brake road bike as I want to run 30mm or maybe even 32mm tyres so that I can enjoy some extra comfort, and also take advantage of more grip and a shorter stopping distance due to more rubber being in contact with the road.
@@-communication5636for road 28mm, 30mm and 32mm it's worth it mainly because roads are not always good and the other thing is that 28+mm tires are more comfy for large distances, thinking that 28 or 32 it's just for "pros" when those measurements are imo better than 25/23 for the normal rider it's just mind bogling to me
As long as frame builders exist, rim brake bikes wont dissappear, direct mount rim brakes in every one of them if you want, custom geometry, tubing, having the cable stops exactly where you want them, choosing headset and bb standard... I appreciate their craft.
in 50 years rim brake will be gone, the bike industry will never go back to rim. i cant even find v brakes for my old mtb anymore bec guess what, they stopped making them
@@JwallzMTBAll v-brakes are made the same (except mini-v-brakes with a shorter cantilever arm). But even Shimano still sells multiple models, and there is also Dia Compe and probably Tektro to choose from. They are definitely still produced, many bicycle brands still sell new bicycles with v-brakes.
I'm a 66 year old life-long bike fanatic. I agree 100% about rim brakes. They're simple and have never been a problem for me. I do ride in the rain from time to time (nice Hawaiian rains, haha) and have never had a rim brake issue. Thank you for your very interesting video.
disc brakes are a scam in plain sight. PRO will say nothing because they will lose their job. They get pampered left and right as long they spread propaganda of corporation.
I am also a rim brake rider I just do not see the need for disc brakes on a road bike. i would like to buy an E Bike, but will not pay a few thousand pounds for something I don't like.
rims is fine, i ride rim brake but the problem is i have a old 90's mtb that i cant find brakes for for because they dont make them and the industry will never go back to rim so now im having to switch up my entire quiver of bikes
Makes me happy I kept my Trek Domane ALR and recently had an overhaul from Sora to Tiagra. The bike shop loved the bike for all the reasons in this video. I will keep riding it!
Totally agree with everything he says. He didn’t take into account the bike industry really pushes disc, most manufacturers don’t make rim anymore. Every time I ride with someone with discs, I hear them rubbing.
The contact patch being the limiting factor means grabbing too much brake and then washing out(skidding) due to not enough friction. Going over the bars means there was enough friction.
I've always been a rim break user, Always will be. I hardly ride in the rain anymore. I can go 10,000 miles before I even have to look at my rim brake pads and calipers. Since I live in a pretty flat area, my pads last 20,000 to 30,000 miles. PS. I've never worn out the braking surface on a rim.
@Bill Kallas I rode between 14,000-18,000(had a couple 20k years) a year when I was racing and still rode a minimum of 10k a year when I switched to speed skating in 2010. Last year was the first year I didn't ride at least 10,000 a year since 2004. I'm a bigger rider at a 185lb race weight. But I still loved climbing so had to descend too. You wear rims out with that much riding with my size and terrain
@@veganpotterthevegan I weigh a little more than that, and still never wore a rim out. Riding in crappy weather will cause severe rim wear. I would rarely do any training when it was raining or snowing. I'd prefer grinding out the miles on a trainer. In Criteriums, you try not to use your brakes, and when you do, it's just to make slight adjustments to your speed in the corners.
I like rim brakes. They're easy to replace and service. Main drawback as far as I'm concerned is they wear out the wheel rims eventually, and that means either a new wheel, or completely rebuilding the old one with a new rim.
Thanks for reassuring me that I'm not riding a dinosaur and can continue to happily ride my 20+ year old rim brake-equipped road bike for years to come. I've never had problems with them, Ultegras, because I don't ride that hard and aggressively, often go down long winding mountain roads, or go out in the rain. For the kind of riding that I do they're more than fine. Plus it sounds like a real PITA to maintain disc brakes. From your description they're essentially mini versions of car disc brakes, and I've worked on those enough to not be keen on the idea of maintaining them on a bike. Very messy and tight tolerances. In fact there's so many things that are "old school" about my bike that it would just be silly to upgrade most of its components to more modern versions. Ti frame, horizontal top tube, non-integrated (but threadless) headset, raked (carbon) fork, shallow alloy rims, threaded bottom bracket with square tapers, triple crankset, just 10 gears in back, mechanical shifting (but with integrated shifters), external cable routing, alloy seatpost (the one thing, other than wheels, that I might upgrade), narrow (23mm) tires, and, rim brakes. Rides like a dream, built up by myself, barring a catastrophe should literally outlast me.
Neill, I’m not a fan of disc brakes either, but, at least on Shimano, the brake fluid is not caustic, it’s mineral oil. In either case, it would take quite a long time for the seals to harden. But that’s not the problem, and it’s the piston seal design that is what causes the piston to retract, and on R8000 and 9000, 9100, it wasn’t enough. Also of note, Shimano has done something in the latest version of Ultegra, and DuraAce and probably the latest 105, to cause there to be more clearance/retraction when the brakes are released. This is supposed to correct the rubbing noise issue. All that said, the problem with many disc brake bikes isn’t the calipers, it’s the fact that the frame hasn’t been prepped properly. What you’ll find is one or both of two things. First, the brake disc flat mount surface on the frame has paint overspray on it. Secondly, the frames brake disc flat mount surfaces are not true, perpendicular and flat to the centerline of the wheel axle. Park Tool makes a $525 tool to fix the issue, but who has that? And the bikes shouldn’t be leaving the factory needing a complex machining operation to be done. Both of these things wil cause problems with noise and rubbing, and not being able too get an even clearance on both sides when setting up.
A lot of bike shops have tools to face the caliper mount. I wouldn't want anything to do with a bike shop that doesn't have a tool that's every shop should have had 15-20yrs ago. No reason for people to have one in their house, just as there's no reason for most people to have a truing stand.
@@veganpotterthevegan Here in my area every shop I’ve asked didn’t have one, but said “we can get one if we really need to”, so not everyone does, and tbh I’m not sure this tool did exist 15 years ago.
@GNX157 that specific tool didn't exist 15 yrs ago but you don't need that specific tool. I have a new chain whip but chain whips have been around for decades. There are handheld facing tools for every bolt size you can imagine until they're so big that you need a motor to face them. They don't need to be made specifically for bikes. But there have been facing tools made for disc brake bikes for at least 15yrs.
Valid point on the mounting surface. Having to face a caliper mounting surface on a new bicycle is just ridiculous and cost a shop time and labor. It’s really annoying. Then you’ve got bedding, squeaking, etc.
@@freenational Calipers suck above around 28mm wheels due to reducing mechanical advantage as the calipers get longer. For wider tires, cantilever, including v-brake style cantilever, are what are a valid alternative to disk brakes. As long as you have good pads, have aluminum rims and set them up properly they are pretty much as good as disk brakes. The one advantage disk brakes really have is that they are better at shedding heat.
Rim brakes have no reason to be replaced....other than disc brakes need a lot of totally new bikes....lots of sales for the industry. standing against the wall at Starbucks, you can see, right off, when someone has a "modern" bike.. What a scam! Hopefully they'll get wise and keep offering a rim brake..Like press-fit BBs, sometimes the new stuff is not good for the riders and they learn to avoid it...
@@dhanso928 I just don’t get it. Disc brakes offer plenty of concrete advantages, no reason to shit on someone just because they prefer that. The extra stopping power and performance in the wet can’t be denied - and the tiny amount of weight added is very overhyped. There’s a reason disc brakes are now the preference in many race bikes.
@@Ferrichrome Not dissing anyone... However, discs aren't "preferred" by pros, they are riding them because their contracts require them to. They're probably not allowed to say anything, but a few seem to have defied team orders and let slip their opinions about that...The bike sponsors pay big bucks to have teams ride what they want to sell....The teams make big money riding whatever gives them the biggest deal....as long as it's not losing them races. If you want to talk wet...The limit to shortest braking is tire traction..a sliding tire doesn't care whether it's disc or rim...But hey, if it's what is being said, over and over and over again by all the shills...Discs are better..(for the sellers, for sure)
@@dhanso928 to each their own. In my experience, my rim brakes don’t work if my bike has been sitting in the rain for some time - I have to “test” them several times before they start to get grip on the wet rim. I just dislike when someone states their own opinion as if it’s fact, when there legitimate reasons to go either way🤷♂️ And sure, you can try and turn everything into a conspiracy… yes, these companies exist to make money, of course that’s true. And I’m sure that’s part of the reason. But many people say they will never go back to rim brakes after trying disc. The easier stopping power makes the brakes more usable for more types of riders, as stated by the video.
@@Ferrichrome True. I hope the rim brakes aren't removed from the industry though, but they probably will be because they work fine and are less profitable for the industry.
I have a love hate relationship with disc road, got both systems and like both. My rim brakes are campy chorus 12, spd version and brake excellent on carbon tubular wheels, arguably as good as my disc. The lever effort with compressionless housings is much the same. The only difference I've found is that rim carbon braking always has a latency, something you don't get on disc brakes. Regarding groupset weight, I think it's about 200g difference or less with my disc group over the rim equivalent ,it's very small. Alignment is a pita though, after months of no disc rub my front got a noticeable warp to the point I'll just put a new one on. I do my own mechanical work otherwise you could see yourself at bike shop a lot. A good point though of disc that's often overlooked is the ability to ride with full braking in the event if a broken spoke or an accident that results in a warped wheel.
It's true that with disc brakes you can still brake properly when you have a broken spoke, but the irony is that disc brakes make broken spokes more likely due to the fact (which Neill mentioned) that the braking force has to be transferred from the hub through the spokes to the tire. This (broken spoke) happened to me, and to a friend during a group ride, both were disc brake bikes. I never had a broken spoke with rim brakes
@@DominikLoeffler1 I had two pillar 1420 spikes go after about 15000 kms on a back disc wheel. The failures occured in the same spots, where the spots entered the rim hole as they were hidden nipple built. The drilled hole angle were too right angle caused a stress point something that could've been mitigated by drilling the holes asymmetrically. My other wheels are all conventionally laced with the nipple external .
@@user-nu5fx6en9h sure, but that is just anecdotal evidence that I added. It doesn't change the underlying physics. Of course a disc wheelset can be designed to not break spokes, but then you're still left with the disadvantage of higher weight as Neill explained
I always "rode a bike" but now, at 40 years old, I'm just cracking into "cycling." I'm loving all your stuff, Neill! Please keep it coming! The other RCA team members aren't bad, either :)
Valid points, thanks for another great video! I think as long as we have a choice, rim and disc can and should co-exist. I am just a bit skeptical rim will survive, and seeing that not everything is better with disc brakes (how could it be, that's a very rare occasion in any of life's disciplines), I would really want rim brakes to be available in the future, especially with decent brake pads on aluminium rims. Threaded BBs are back, though :-P As far as I undestood, the contact patch tyre to road is also less grippy in rain, questionning the need for the (superior) power of disc brakes here, imho. Also, I hear frames and forks are heavier for disc systems, all other stabiility factors being equal, because of the brake forces on the tip of the fork/dropouts are high and single sided (even hubs need some extra grams of torsional reinforcement, compared to rim brake systems).
The thing that i like about hydraulic brakes is the brake feel, which is just superior to mechanical brakes. Which is why i think mechanical disc brakes suck, better use rim brakes if you're going the mechanical route. If they can create rim brakes that has the same smooth brake feel of hydraulic brakes, then i might go back to rim brakes.
@@sepg5084 Mechanical discs are fine, they’re just really sensitive to the condition, quality and routing of the cable. If the cable is spot on, they’re pretty good.
Great video. I'm 65 years old now and have been riding rim brake bikes for all my life. The only issue I have ever had with rim brakes is that, when riding in rain or through puddles, they CAN lose braking power. The solution: as soon as you have ridden through that puddle, close your brakes a bit to remove most of the excess water from the rim, and also REMEMBER you are riding in wet conditions and brake early. I have yet to own a bike with disc brakes. I agree with all your cons about discs: finicky, hard to adjust pads, constant rubbing issues, bleeding, etc. I'm not looking fwd to EVER having to deal with disc brakes. Only problem is that rim brake wheels are getting scarce.... Thanks for the vid! Now get out and ride.
Disc brakes require more maintenance, but I find it worth the trouble to have excellent stopping power in weather and while descending. One point that he doesn't bring up (which I suspect is part of the reason why manufacturers like disc brakes so much), is that wheel manufacturers don't have to build up the sidewalls of the rims as much, since brakes are clamping on the discs, rather than the rims. I would much rather have heat buildup on the discs than the rims. Rim brake wheels are slightly lighter, but not by much. Disc brake bikes are heavier (maybe due to hydraulic lines, etc), but well worth it, IMO. For less hilly riding, I feel like aerodynamics play more of a role than overall weight of the bike. My $.02.
Rims brakes are terrible they ware out fast and if the rim is dented from a bump they make it hard to ride , this guy hasnt got a clue to what he is talking about
I have only 1 bike, I don't generally go out in the rain (too old for that too), but it did happen that the rain gained up on me. I was happy to have my disc brake bike. 25000+ Km on them, never adjusted them and they don't rub at all (cross fingers & toes for next season). Another quible, not mentionned, is the rim brake surface on different wheels (carbon or alu) can get worn out with rim brakes. Then you need to change your rims, much more complicated than changing you rotors. But I agree, rim brakes are very easy to work on. I wouldn't touch my disc brakes, afraid they would rub afterwards.
I have H11s on my Cx bike and rim brakes on my road bike. IMO the rims are the best option. As you said, even the best brake is negated by the contact patch. The great equalizer. Rim brakes stop just as well as disk and are lighter and easier to maintain. It's a no brainer. Disks are a scam by the industry to get everyone to buy more kit.
The best brakes I’ve got on a bike is v-brakes,you can have any size tyre you can fit and they stop better than all my disc brake bikes and they are lighter and don’t jam up in sand.They work great in the rain also no issues with rubbing or anything,I hate the disc brakes in all the bikes I have that came with them.
Vbrakes are so insanely underrated. It's too bad they never got their day in the sun with road bikes/gravel bikes. They're just the natural evolution of cantilever brakes.
Totally agree with Neil's comments, I switched bikes from a rim brake Wilier with Campagnolo Record to a Cannondale with Ultegra discs and that was a huge mistake, the stopping power of the Campy's was superb in all conditions. never had any issues regardless of weather and now my bike is so much heavier, and really noticeable where I live as its really hilly plus I have had issues with the pads sticking and squealing. My next bike will have rim brakes even if it means buying one a couple of years old.
What about the cost of replacing wheels when the rim brakes wear out the braking surface? I own two rim brakes bikes but wonder if the cost of replacement discs is lower in the long run.
It comes down to how one brakes too. Dragging on them on long descents is a fast way to cook up the rims and blow them up. No wheelset can last long without proper braking technique.
At 95 Kilo I still ride rim brake bikes here in the mountains of Virginia. I still use canti's on my CX bike though I definitely can see the benefit of disk there. I see absolutely no need for disk on the road. Disk brakes are wonderful for mountain bike riding where you bomb down to every corner, get through it, then bomb down to the next corner but it's just not like that on a road bike except for those few hair pin mountain descents but even then you are on pavement not loose dirt. It's just not a problem that needs to be solved.
@@user-nu5fx6en9h Are you riding on dirt roads? I've got campy tubular wheel sets from the 70's that still work. Not that I use them a lot on my vintage bikes but still.
I agree with all his points, but this is my positive experience with going disk's, in 2016 I got a road bike with shimano disk brakes, they are un-named and I believe it was before disks came to dura-ace and ultegra. I strictly ride climbs so I'm always using the brakes and I have never done a bleed, original resin pads lasted less than a year but I changed to metal sintered pads and have only replaced once! Also never had problems with alignment as there is a good gap between the pad and rotor, breaking power is still as good as new. On the other hand sram mtb brakes have been a nightmare, warranty issues, overheating failures, alignment problems, pistons not retracting, lacking power, noisy, any problem... I have had it on 4 bikes.
Rim brakes are definitely lighter and less expensive than disc, and for road riding rim brakes stop well enough, but especially with carbon rims in the rain, disc brakes are just less worrisome. Since I do ride in the rain fairly regularly, I don't think I'll be going back to rim brakes anytime soon. Once you get used to them, disc bakes aren't much more of a maintenance faff than rim brakes. Once I learned the trick of setting up new pads to have slightly more clearance, I haven't experienced much rubbing or ticking.
@@Scarab002 Remove the wheel and brake pads, and loosen the bleed port screw to relieve some pressure in the line. Push the pistons in, tighten the bleed port screw back up, replace the pads and wheel, and recenter the calipers if necessary. Before centering, it's helpful to use one of those pad spacer tools that go over the disc rotor to increase the space between the rotor and the pads. ua-cam.com/video/hBdJYX8tICA/v-deo.html
This, plus I experience it to be easier to clean the bike after a ride in the rain. You do not have the dirt from the brakepads everywhere on your bike as you had with rimbrakes. I believe they will still become lighter in the future and also easier to adjust. The current Dura Ace is great in this respect, although not perfect, and at least one level above the previous Dura Ace. Also the current DA does not need maintenance for a long time after you have set it up correctly.
Love this constructive explanation for pro disc and pro rim. I went full retro this year. 2nd Cervélo R5 frame-set with SRAM Red eTap Rim version. Soooo light and sooo beautiful to ride. Hope my frame won't break soon.
I’m heavy and I’m a bike commuter in London, so avoiding the rain is not an option. My current ride is a cheap rim brake bike, and I’ve had a couple of scary moments when I couldn’t stop, so I’m saving up for my next bike which will be disk.
I dont know up or down nearly on a road bike. Looking at a Ridley grifn allroad with 105 group set and Shimano RS171 DB wheels. It is any good for a new cyclist?
I ride rim brake, and this advantage is a double edge sword, as if you ride on a lot of wet roads, you get shit on your rim, and it will get scratched and wear out over time. Some would see this as an advantage as they will then need to buy a new wheel, others will not like the expense of the upgrade 🙂
Any views on Magura rim brakes versus cabled rim brakes ? I converted an old road / mountain bike to an ebike. It is now much heavier and takes a lot of squeezing power to stop the bike anyway quickly. Would changing to Megura hydraulic rim brakes require much less squeezing power ? Would that be a solution for me ? Thanks.
I recently purchased a Dogma F with rim brakes and love it. I didn’t think I needed disc brakes. I do not ride in the rain and I do not do a lot of steep descent. I am 6’ 2 and 240😊lbs with a footballer build and rim brakes have worked fine for me . I hope Pinarello continues making rim brake frames.
So glad I saw this video. Currently shopping bikes now, I’m amazed how complicated bikes have become and for no other reason than marketing. It the equivalent of someone who buys a Jeep and drives to the mall. By sticking with rim brakes, I can swap parts between bikes and do most of the upkeep myself. At some point, I think you have to ask yourself, is this tech really beneficial, or is just making something fun, like cycling, more expensive and hard to upkeep? Look forward to the “electronic group set” take..
Eh, most disc brakes use interchangeable parts and all use the same type of mounts (flat or post). You can even use the same disc brake fluid between brands. Imo it’s not that hard to maintain, especially with mechanical discs. Note - I currently use rim brakes too, and if that’s your preference, more power to you! But there’s plenty out there, myself included, who have had no issue with disc brakes.
Get a different opinion. Most friends around me are changing to disc brakes from rim brakes. If you are buying a mid -high end bike, I strongly suggest disc brake also for better resale value. Most of the latest bike in the market are all disc brakes, you will not have good resale value for rim brakes bike because more and more higher end bike owners have disc brake components , wheels and unlikely they get a rim brake bike. Personally I own a rim brake felt F4 and a disc brake Trek Madone.
I dropped $$ on a disc brake bike thanks to being persuaded by my LBS. I have sold it and ordered custom made rim frames. I am never going back and I was running Dura Ace on the disc bike.
How the hell did I cope with Rim brakes for the last 40 years living in a wet country 🤷🏻♀️. If you can’t brake in the wet with rim brakes then you shouldn’t be on a fucking bike in the 1st place.
Do new carbon rim brake wheels not have the sandpaper sounds when braking? I had a rim brake bike with carbon wheels and i couldn't stand the sounds of braking i swapped out the wheels with alloy tracks instead.
Forgot to mention with disc brakes frames can be designed for larger tire clearance. Also that your brakes won't be eating away and eroding expensive carbon rims.
if you use the right pads with the right rim surface you can get good braking performance and next to no rim wear. I have a set of corima wheels with corima pads and they brake really well and it took almost a year of riding to get any indication of wear whatsoever. I'm going to destroy the wheel on in a crash long before the rim wears out.
@@albr4 My friend's usd2k carbon rims brake explode and cause massive crash in peloton (weekend ride). Who gonna pay other's lost? Some YT with rim brake change to disc brake cause his expensive wheels start bulging! Get rid of the problem that can cause fatal accident!
I'm 104kg, 6ft 8" and have bikes with both rim and disc brakes. I live in rural SE Sweden. Except for mountain biking (which I don't often do) there are rarely any occasions where disc brakes are superior. On the road, I hardly ever need to brake (due to minimal traffic and good road design). In winter, very strong braking force is ill advised due to snow and ice. The maintenance issues with the discs drive me nuts. Misalignments, pad stand off issues etc. The misery that is fixing a puncture and having rubbing discs all the way home. My main summer bike is now rim brakes and I'm very happy about that.
Tja! Är också bosatt i Stockholm och väger 98kg. Pendlar mellan rim eller disc. Ska köra min första lvg cykel nämligen. Är du fortfarande för rim idag?
Great video. Really helps explain the pros and cons without overcomplicating the subject matter. While i really want a disc brake bike this video helped me decided I really don’t need one. If i have to add weight and complexity for only minor gains I will stick with my alloy wheels and Kool stops they havent let me down yet.
I don't agree with that at all. Have you ridden bikes with disc brakes? They aren't less comfortable. I have an apples to apples comparison. I owned a rim brake Cannondale SuperSix. I then bought one with disc brakes. The disc brake one doesn't ride worse at all. There isn't more chatter in the bars either. That is with the same width tires.
@@DaveCM In my opinion, with the same tires the disc bike is overall stiffer. Going to larger tires does mitigate the extra stiffness. Though, disc bikes are getting better. Each brand is different so for the SuperSix you may be right.
Great vid. Thanks. The warping of discs you mention is a result of the greater heat of discs versus rims. On long steep descents with hairpins those rotors can get red hot and start to fade. I have Campag skeketon rim brakes and hand built 24/20 alloy rims. Utterly reliable with minimal fettling and no noise. Like you, I don’t ride in the wet anymore (and coped in the wet with rims just find) so disc brakes are irrelevent for me.
excellent video and makes a lot of sense. suggestion for Neill, should add resistance weight training to his workout and some upper body exercises. Will do wonders for a cyclists overall body physique and bone mineralization.
Loving it! honest and transparent review, I can not agree more ... market shift to disk brakes has been the biggest move to force users to change bikes, frames, wheels and groupsets ever ... absolutely unjustified and lifting prices to an insane level. Rim brakes are a very logic and practical option for most of bikers ... stand up for them!!! ;)
Love the wheelset on the bike - I have a set of the Caden "Decadence" wheels on my bike too. I ride rim brakes on the roadie and do most of my riding in the hills (Dandenongs in Melbourne) and find braking generally fine in the wet. I always felt that tyre adhesion was is the biggest limitation, plus I tend not to ride as hard down hill in the wet anyway. A couple of times I have been glad I wasn't on disc brakes... one time when descending at speed I hit a fair bump whilst braking semi-firmly. The bump caused me to effectively grab a handful of front brake and almost lock the front wheel. This might have gone horribly wrong on the discs? Having said that I love the discs on my MTB and will likely have discs when I (one day) upgrade my roadie
For road bikes rim brakes all day. After 70000kms in the last 6 years across multiple bikes never worn through the braking surface on any aluminium wheel sets. Have used discs for a brief period and the squealing/screeching noise drove me mad.
I was mountain biking in a hilly part of the UK through 12 winters, off-road using a Shimano hydraulic disc brake set up and it has been faultless, just 3 sets of pads which I replaced myself. For them to work through all the crap that was thrown at them, I was amazed. I've now gone on to road biking in the Peak District of the UK and the rim brakes on my racing bike (Shimano 105 on Fulcrum aluminium wheels) seem next to useless by comparison, especially in the wet and I have to brake much earlier than my disc-equipped mates, squeezing for my life to get some stopping effect on the wet rims. I like to go fast downhill, only weigh 62kg, so would go for disc brakes every time.
Agree w you, my hydro Shimano SLX on a hardtail have 2,000 miles, got them flushed at my LBS, had a few pad sets, no problems. If they squeal clean the disc with alcohol, then pull the pads out and clean them.
So your mountain bike has the same tire width as your road bike? If not, you are comparing apples to oranges. Not even close to the same thing. Also, 105 brakes are soft. The caliper arms are cast aluminum, not forged as R8000 or R9100 are. Big difference. Also, ditch the stock shimano brake shoes in favor of some Swiss Stop shoes for Alloy rim tracks.
I’m planning to build a custom Ti bike and I want to use rim brakes, but I also want to run 32s on it. Is there a rim brake that will work for that width of tire and rim? Or, would I need cantilever brakes? I do NOT want to use those gawd awful looking things. Look forward to hearing some feedback.
Just recently got a new bike with discs front and rear. I had to do a panic stop and the front brake put me over the bars into an iron fence. To compensate I now ride with 2 fingers on the rear and 1 or none on the front. I wish they had an adjustable pressure modulating valve for the front.
Rim brakes are never a pain in the ass and are adequate most of the time, but when they aren’t (wet carbon rims) they are really, really inadequate. Disc brakes are often a pain in the ass but are adequate all of the time. So the choice is one of occasional terror vs. chronic annoyance.
I think they're mostly a pain in the ass for you because you're not used to them. I come more from a mountainbike background so i'm considerably more used to disc brakes, when i had gotten into road biking a couple years ago nothing frustrated me more than rim brakes, whether it was the common maintenance needed with them or just the considerably worse braking performance in modulation and being in my opinion way more likely to lock up. I'm super happy that disc brakes have become a norm in the road biking industry because they last long, easier to maintain and you'll likely only have to worry about the oil 1-2 years down of usage. Yes disc brakes get out of alignment commonly when you take your wheel off but realigning it is just as easy as taking your wheel off. In my opinion there's too much stubbornness around people wanting to stick with rim brakes because they're simply too used to it and don't wanna move onto something new.
@@peterwillson1355 You're still more likely to lock up with rim brakes due to the lack of modulation, it is very noticeably different how much easier a rim brake locks up the wheel compared to a disc brake.
Just returned from the Dolomites having ridden over 7000mtrs of climbing/descending - some 30k long descents - all on rim brakes with no problems at all (78kg + 8kg bike)
These are my complaints with disc brakes: 1. They are more difficult to maintain. It almost requires a magnifying glass to see when your pads are worn out. They require lubrication and if any gets on the disc or pads, they're finished. And the pads are many times more expensive than rim brakes, while not lasting much, if any, longer. The calipers can be troublesome to center, and the disc may get bent. 2. In snowy climates, you may lock your bike up outside, and return to find your calipers are frozen, which happened to me. I don't know if water froze inside, or the cold just shrunk the metal around the piston. In any case, without heated storage, you just have to wait for spring. It's not easy to replace pads or fix them when it is 0F. They freeze your fingers fast. 3. They add a lot of expense to a bicycle, and unnecessary complexity. They require a special wheel incompatible with other wheels, as if bicycles need more incompatibilities. They require a special spoke arrangement because the forces on the wheel are unbalanced with disc brakes. They require special forks too. 4. The benefit disc brakes provide is almost nothing, especially compared to the drawbacks. The most people can say is that disc brakes work better in the rain. Sand and mud are another story. And i hear they may be easier to lock up if you are a 90 year old woman with arthritic fingers. Suspicious claim. I see it as just another corporate profiteering scam, like making food packaging look bigger when you actually get less product. Bikes should be as simple as possible. They should be all terrain, all weather, by default. They should be ready to use at anytime to go anywhere. And they will become increasingly important as energy costs rise. What is needed more than anything IMHO is a standards organization. International Bike Standards, so that mfrs of components can start cranking out components with low costs and high quality. I've spent the last 6 months trying to find out where I can buy a new 48t 1x crankset with 200mm arms, and a chainring protector. And I'm still looking for someone that can do it under $500.
Bike mechanic here #1 mech disc brakes are easier to maintain than rim, bar none. No spring adjustments, no pad straightening etc and it’s easy as hell to see pad wear, just look to see how close the material is to the base. To adjust you loosen 2 bolts, squeeze tighten and you’re done. Nothing on your disc brakes requires lubricant anymore than your rim brakes, I use a dropper on pivot points for both types if they’re rusted bad. The pads are identical in cost at my shop to rim pads, they might be a dollar more but that’s it, there are high end rim pads just like there are high end disc pads. Rim brakes ruin an entire rim whereas disc brakes ruin an 18-30$ rotor that takes years of riding or a couple years of hard trail riding to seriously wear out. #2 Having to wait till spring is untrue, if water froze in your mechanical rim lines it’d be the same thing. If it was under -4 it could have stiffened up the mineral oil if they were hydraulic, in which case you would just need a DOT brake fluid bike, which is on any SRAM groupie, I know plenty of people that ride in freezing conditions. Pads are easy to replace too idk what the deal is, pop out a cotter pin or a screw, pry the pistons and install. Rim brakes you undo the cable, use a 5mm hex to remove the pads and then you pivot the pads, sounds just as hard or worse. #3 if you have a rim brake bike you need a rim brake wheel which are just as common as disc wheels in my experience and the cost difference is very small. You wouldn’t put a 29er on a 26 right? You’d just get the right wheel. #4 Disc brakes are better in every metric, it comes down to preference. SRAM brakes don’t lock up Shimanos or TRPs and allow for a lot of modulation. Some people prefer softer braking but as someone who regularly rides rim brakes on a track bike I would prefer disc all day. Hands fatigue less, you spend less time on the levers(more important for drop bars) and if you’ve ridden with them for more than 15 minutes you get acquainted with the brake reaction. There’s dual piston, quad piston, 160mm rotors, 180s, 200+ whatever you need for your riding preferences. Friends of mine ride muddy single track with hydraulic brakes and have no issues, I’ve rarely locked up a tire on accident and it’s always been the rear on a bike I’m not familiar with, they’re easy to control. I’ve locked my rim brakes up more than a couple times. Your crankset issue is unrelated but yeah there does need to be some standardization, for the most part bb tech is leveling out. 200mm crank arms are ridiculous for a mtb, road or gravel bike assuming that’s what it’s for. I’m 6’7 and I’m riding 175s on a frame size under my actual size so I think you just need a different bike lol. Hardly anyone has 200mm cranks, that’s pretty special. 48t, with nice gx cranks would run you 140 I think for cranks maybe 30-40 for an after market milled chain ring if you want to stay cheap from race face, install would be 30 and that includes finding all the parts for you so idk how you’re hitting $500
@@dirtyred2000 200mm is normal for a 38in inseam. Everyplace I've found wants about $600 for a complete crankset. Zinn for example and other custom mfrs. 1. No, I never had to adjust a spring or pad with rim brakes. It's not easy to see pads. They are a 2 centimeters or so down inside a narrow crevice where everything is black. The disc brakes I have are cable adjusted, not by squeezing pads. Where I live, pads are $30 and rim brakes are $8. No, that's BS, rim pads don't destroy wheels. So, I am hearing propaganda now. I am not worried about the disc wearing out, I am saying it is an extra unnecessary expense and component and it creates unbalanced forces on a wheel. It is also dumb from a physics view because it is far easier to stop a wheel using friction on the rim than near the center of a wheel. I am saying they offer no advantage. The bicycle industry has been taken over by weirdos. 2 discs and 2 calipers certainly cost a lot more than 2 squares of rubber. Probably adds $100 to the cost of a bicycle. The pad dust is probably toxic too and discs make it more of a PITA to remove and insert wheels. And more difficult to see when a wheel is centered in the forks. 2. I could not use my bike at all last winter because I don't have heated storage, and the rear disc brake froze in the closed position. In the spring, it worked again. Something froze in it but I didn't have time or a place to analyze it well. I don't like messing around with metal in 0F. I would not have that kind of problem with rim brakes. Rim brakes are far easier to replace. Your views are skewed if you work on them all day. The average person doesn't need to investigate anything to change rim brakes. And they are easily visible. Nobody ever complained about rim brakes except for the freaks of the bicycle industry. In 50 years of riding bicycles, I never said: gee, I wish i had disc brakes. I always thought cantilever brakes were fine. Simple. We used to call them center pull in the early 80s. 3. I don't agree that rim wheels are easy to find. Not locally. And they are not interchangeable with disc wheels. Basically, disc brakes locks you into a bike that is made for disc brakes only. The entire bicycle has to be designed around disc brakes. It's not like they are an option. 4. I'm 6'3, 38in inseam. 200mm is my perfect size, 175 is too small and forces the too high seat to be 1in higher. I am not interested in a bicycle for sport. I need to ride all terrains, all weather, and all distances, even 120mi/day. I don't like bad ergonomics. If you can get me a 200mm crankset with a replaceable chainring with a guard, in the 40t size, for $200 or whatever, I'll buy one from you. I meant 40t, not 48t. Sorry. I have a 36t, and uphill is too easy and downhill has no gearing.
Haha 200mm is absurd unless you're either in the top 100 tallest people in the world, or else have some growth defect or deformity that makes you have a VERY weird proportion of leg bones. In any case, no one is going to mass market that, you need custom, just like someone missing a limb needs a custom prosthetic. (As for the disc brake stuff, all the stuff you're saying is nonsense 😂 and feel free to keep using rim brakes if you want while the rest of us move on)
Switched from rim brakes to discs some time ago after riding for thousands of miles and wearing the fuck out of my old bike’s rims to the point where only the back brake barely worked in the rain. In all honesty I’m not going to replace the things that make the bike move because of the thing that’s supposed to stop them. My vision is 20/16 (better than 20/20, i can see whet a normal person needs 16 feet for in 20) so seeing the wear on the disc pads is no problem. just go on craigslist and get a bike there, my first bike with discs was a state 6061 that the original owner invested ~$1800 in - including a replacement to the bad brakes the bike is known for, which i got for $442 on craigslist. low costs and high quality is used stuff bro
I do notice my rim brake specialized roval carbons are terrible in the wet but I ride in the dry so not such a huge issue. If i get caught out I just need to be carefull
In my opinion, rim brake bikes if setup properly, ride so much nicer and smoother than a disc brake bike. They are also lighter and easier to maintain requiring fewer tools to fix unlike bleed kits. They do have their disadvantages especially in the mountains riding down hill at speed but besides that way nicer.
i'd want disc brakes for the wider tire fit, 30c to 32c i'd love to have that, i can only fit 25c on mine and my roads can be rough and i'm not 20 anymore.
having weighed the pros and cons, I'll stick with the rim brakes (ultegra) already on my bike. light, low maintenance, quiet, and not used enough to think about changing to disc brakes really.
I am in the States. I own a 2015 Specialized Secteur with rim brakes that I use in NY State (hills, hills, and more hills.) Never a problem in the rain. I ride the bike 2,500-2700 miles from May to October. I still have the original pads on the bike. I am now in the market for a road bike at my Florida home. Any recommendations for a road bike with rim brakes and a decent Shimano groupset? All of the bikes I was considering have disc brakes, but after watching this video, I will stick with rim brakes. Thank you!
My little collection exists of Tarmac SL6 Tiagra (disc), Colnago CX1 Campa (rim) and BMC TeamMachine SLR01 Ultegra (rim) and all of them brake very well. Both rim brake bikes have alloy wheels and that's quite important for braking performance. As Neill states, the input with discs is less than with rim.
So rim brake is better because they are: Lighter Quieter (even though everyone wants the loudest hub possible...) Easier to work on Don't have brake rub issues like disc Good for weather nazis that dont ride in the rain Ok got it... Nothing to do with safety... Just weight weenie stuff and being to sensitive to raindrops... I have mechanical disc... (Trp spyre slc). Had them for ages. Each brake pad has its own independent adjustment to push or pull the pad away from the rotor. I have never experienced brake rub in my life. They are heaps easier to work on than rim brakes. In carbon applications, beauty about disc is that you aren't overheating the area where the tire attaches to the rim. So on a carbon rim brake, you risk heating up your rim on descends to the point where your tire will come off the bead/glue... Then no amount of brake will stop you. This means youll have to go with aluminum wheels since they dissipate heat better, but then you negate all the weight savings of a rim brake... Theres a reason 90% of peoples main bikes are disc. There will always be a small percentage of people that are resistant to change and are stubborn, and tunneled with their bias views. I get it. I've been there.
I've come from racing Mx and Enduro......my favourite thing since moving to cycling is listening to life time cyclists talking about disc break's and tubeless
Good one! I'm 70 and have moved over to disc brakes and tubeless. No debate they are better, but they are a little trickier to work on for us old farts. 🙂 Happy trails!
Luv you Neill. Brilliant narrative. You are an industry leader and thanks for your honesty. I have owned it all and you said it perfectly. Now to make you laugh. I built a 40 mph Specialized Aluminum Allez dropbar roadbike with 1700 watt BBSHD mid drive motor and rim brakes with Campy aluminum wheels. Never need more braking power. I am a big boy at 83 kilos and from the US. Can lock either or both wheels up if I like. Many top pros are privately contemptuous of disc brakes mostly due to rubbing like Chris Froome who of course like me grew up racing on rim brakes. What is laughable is...until disc brakes because the rage and the scourge of the industry, nobody ever felt they needed more braking power because the contact patch is the weakest link. This is the bike industry standing on a nickel which is the same as electric shifting, integrated handlebars with through the stem cable management...press fit bottom brackets after 10 years of screwing the public only to return to BSA as an 'improvement'. Shameless greed. And Neill....you will always be able to ride rim brakes brother. Even if all bike frames with rim brakes dry up which they won't, you will always be able to find a frame builder make you a nice Ti road bike you can build with rim brakes to your spec. You are a talented man with a great sense of irony and the industry is better with you in it.
I bought my first disc brake-equipped road bike nearly two years ago. The downsides Neill mentions are absolutely true. And, when I bought the bike, I lived in the flat and really didn’t need them. I have since moved to the mountains, where I descend through patches of cloud and rain unpredictably…for ten or fifteen miles at a stretch. So I’m glad I have them. But man do I have some fits over getting them to stop rubbing. I cannot abide that tch-tch noise of rubbing brakes.
I learnt from my mechanic that some disc brake rub (that quiet steam engine sound you sometimes get), can sometimes be solved by simply making sure your thru-axles are torqued to spec properly. I was having massive brake rub issues, and it turns out the contributor was an under-torqued axle. Once I started tightening them to spec, the problem seemed to go away. Disc brake rub for me now doesn't generally last for more than 5-10 seconds after a long descent or extreme braking situation
I have a 2005 Colnago and am starting to look for a new bike. I do not like Disc brakes for the reason you stated. (I do want to put on 28's though.) Unless I go used market, who sells bikes with rim brakes anymore?
We were all fine until they began promoting wider tires as being just as fast or even faster and more comfortable than 23 & 25. One of the draws of the new technology is the clean look of the bikes with disc brakes and electronic shifting as the the cables only appear as they feed out of the stays and fork into the brakes. Very pleasing to the eye but not to the eyes of the mechanics that have work on them from what I understand. Since I don’t own a bike with the latest disc brake and electronic shifting I wonder how much more are the labor costs to have work done on them.
After riding around with disc brakes for a while now I got caught in a downpour on my second bike (rim brakes, carbon wheels) last week. Bloody hell 😂.
I'm glad to see someone honestly discuss the pros and cons of rim vs. disc brakes as opposed to just mindlessly saying that disc brakes are the greatest thing since sliced bread... (And I have a specific problem with Shimano hydraulic road levers -- I have some arthritis in my right thumb, and the angular shape of the lever body where the hose comes out really aggravates that when I ride on the hoods.)
Highly agree. The other downside to disk brakes is the front fork must be much stronger to resist twist when braking, leading to a stiffer fork hence the need for front suspension in all the endurance bikes.
I agree with Neil plus I will add this, new rim brakes are as effective (not to mention the modulation the lever has compared to disc) as disc brakes plus with the newest pads on the market if you ride on rain, you will be surprised how the rim brakes works, try for example the SwissStop purple pads.
Funny - I never considered the fact that discs can warp. I always felt like disc brakes would mean the end of having to go to a bike shop 2x during riding season to get my wheels trued - I was wrong. I feel much more secure in my recent (December) purchase of a rim brake road bike (my first road bike after 30 years of wanting one) after watching this video.
Oh they warp . They get to around 200-300 degrees c with heavy braking or with constant rubbing . Enough to make the steel rotor malleable. Add that to a caliper miss aligned or a sticky piston (very common) you end up with lovely wavy discs that do not heat up symmetrically only making the issue worse . Then if not changed uneven pad wear and possible caliper damage . Not so much of an issue with mtbs as they use wider clearance between pad and rotor
Recently built one for cheap. They are awesome! I am convinced that it's the best of both worlds. Easy maintenance/installation and cheaper. The braking power is very good.
All very right! And you are beholden to the tolerance of your frame. My SL6 Disc front mounts are skewed on the Z axis. Not something you can fix and means that pad expansion "window" is narrower and they always tick... Riding 28C's I would happily go back.
@@sbccbc7471 Thanks for the reply! This is true, but the holes are wonky, so even if I flatten the surface in relation to the thru axle, I'll then be bending things to sit flat which is not good!
What about aero differences, I have rim breaks (not hidden) on a TT bike and always wondered if having them exposed would be a penalty opposed to disc?
Disc vs rim brakes has a negligible effect on aerodynamic drag. I would expect to see a bigger difference with the cables; most performance bikes with disc brakes have integrated cables, but a bike with rim brakes is likely to still have exposed cables.
If they are selling bikes for $15'000 maybe they have to put disks on them, should be able to buy a good motorcycle for less. As for me I am not attracted to complicated bicycles, a bike should be good but simple, it should be easy to maintain.
Do you agree with Neill? This is a hot topic - we'd love to get your perspectives below.
yes. #rimjobforlife
No? A disc brake is just as easy to maintain as a rim brake.
You just throw your bike to the mechanic, and pick it up an hour or two later. How difficult is that? Walking to the bike mechanic with a rim half a decade ago, isn’t any easier compared to walking there with my now disc brake bike.
#SaveRimBrake
In my group rides… there’s a 50:50 mixture of rim/disc bikes…. Guess which brakes are ALWAYS the noisiest…. RIM 😂
Thank you brotha!!! Truth.
Yeah, I'm with Neil. I've got two bikes with rims and one with discs. And my discs rub and squeal. And I just haven't had the time or patience to dig into it. I also don't want to deal with brake fluid! I love my rims because they're EASY to maintain/adjust, and pads are cheap and easy to switch out when worn. Also, if I'm in a crunch, I can just take some sandpaper and rough them up a bit. Yes, discs are stronger, but I'm not a big guy. Rims all the way.
hey, bro! may I ask a question for your weight? I am choose a new bike frame, rim break and disc break make me puzzled.
I've been on rim brakes for 23 years and never had an issue to include in the wet. I used to live south of the Alps and the majority of my races and Granfondos I entered had mountains and my rim brakes never failed or had me in a bad situation. Even though flying down mountains is behind me, along with my youth, I still get the bike out in the wet and descend well with my rim brakes. I do have to say wheel tech for climchers have come a long way though. I currently use HED wheels (Jet RC4 Black and Ardennes RA Black) with their "Black Turbine brake technology" which they say reduces stopping distance in the wet by 70% and in the dry by 25%. I don't know about the percentages but they are great clinchers that perform better than any other wheelsets I've owned (Campy, Fulcrum, Kinlin, DT Swiss, Mavic, Reynolds, etc.). I tried disc brakes on a CAAD 10 I bought and sold and wasn't overwhelmed.
I’ve had nothing but problems with rim brakes.
I tried rim brakes , it was just bad for me and have to get a disk brake for safety issues. Rim brakes power is just too weak for me
I've used rim brakes all my life, then tried hydraulic disc brakes. Brake feel is so much better that i am not going to go back to rim brakes, ever. But that's just me.
"Issue" here might mean just few meters of braking distance less. Simple fact, that what offered rim brakes was sufficient for you each time you needed them the most does not mean that it is superior to hydraulic brakes
Disc Brakes Are 2X As Powerful .....
Probably the biggest advantage of disc brakes is that the don't restrict tire size to 25 or 28C in width. Some may not care about that, but I now run 32C as my road tires and 42C as my gravel tires, both on the same disc brake bike. Roads where I live or awful and going wider has made a huge difference in comfort and flat reduction.
Agree and definitely worth mentioning. Most rim brake frames will take a 25c tyre ok, but going above that to 28c for a lot of them is a no go, even on frames built relatively recently. Usually the problem is the lack of clearance at the chain stays. I’ve got 3 rim brake road bikes but I am going to be selling one of them shortly to buy a disc brake road bike as I want to run 30mm or maybe even 32mm tyres so that I can enjoy some extra comfort, and also take advantage of more grip and a shorter stopping distance due to more rubber being in contact with the road.
BS. I don't know why the industry pretends mid reach caliper brakes don't exist. Check out the Genesis equilibrium.
@@paddyotoole2058 Trek Domane even fits 38mm on a road bike. That is perfect for having two sets of wheels. One for gravel and one for road
For road who really need to use 32 mm like pogacar who have the watt for ???? there only Professional cyclist on UA-cam hahaha
@@-communication5636for road 28mm, 30mm and 32mm it's worth it mainly because roads are not always good and the other thing is that 28+mm tires are more comfy for large distances, thinking that 28 or 32 it's just for "pros" when those measurements are imo better than 25/23 for the normal rider it's just mind bogling to me
As long as frame builders exist, rim brake bikes wont dissappear, direct mount rim brakes in every one of them if you want, custom geometry, tubing, having the cable stops exactly where you want them, choosing headset and bb standard... I appreciate their craft.
That's exactly why I'm pondering bespoke builds more than ever before. Those frames are truly built by riders for riders.
I don't see what any of that has to do with debating the merits of rim versus disc brakes. Everything you describe applies equally to disc brakes.
in 50 years rim brake will be gone, the bike industry will never go back to rim. i cant even find v brakes for my old mtb anymore bec guess what, they stopped making them
@@JwallzMTBAll v-brakes are made the same (except mini-v-brakes with a shorter cantilever arm). But even Shimano still sells multiple models, and there is also Dia Compe and probably Tektro to choose from. They are definitely still produced, many bicycle brands still sell new bicycles with v-brakes.
I'm a 66 year old life-long bike fanatic. I agree 100% about rim brakes. They're simple and have never been a problem for me. I do ride in the rain from time to time (nice Hawaiian rains, haha) and have never had a rim brake issue. Thank you for your very interesting video.
disc brakes are a scam in plain sight. PRO will say nothing because they will lose their job. They get pampered left and right as long they spread propaganda of corporation.
I am also a rim brake rider I just do not see the need for disc brakes on a road bike. i would like to buy an E Bike, but will not pay a few thousand pounds for something I don't like.
rims is fine, i ride rim brake but the problem is i have a old 90's mtb that i cant find brakes for for because they dont make them and the industry will never go back to rim so now im having to switch up my entire quiver of bikes
Makes me happy I kept my Trek Domane ALR and recently had an overhaul from Sora to Tiagra. The bike shop loved the bike for all the reasons in this video. I will keep riding it!
Trek Domane is a cool endurance bike!
dura ace is calling
Cope?
Totally agree with everything he says. He didn’t take into account the bike industry really pushes disc, most manufacturers don’t make rim anymore. Every time I ride with someone with discs, I hear them rubbing.
its cringe when I see 13000 dollar bikes making 200 dollar bike noises
Yep. I hattttte it.
The contact patch being the limiting factor means grabbing too much brake and then washing out(skidding) due to not enough friction. Going over the bars means there was enough friction.
I've always been a rim break user, Always will be. I hardly ride in the rain anymore. I can go 10,000 miles before I even have to look at my rim brake pads and calipers. Since I live in a pretty flat area, my pads last 20,000 to 30,000 miles. PS. I've never worn out the braking surface on a rim.
Wow!!😮
You're not wearing out a rim anytime soon in those conditions. Others will use their brakes more in a week than you do in a year🙃
@@veganpotterthevegan Before I retired from racing, 5 years ago I would put in 8,000-9,000 miles a year (13,000+ km) I did that since the mid 1990's.
@Bill Kallas I rode between 14,000-18,000(had a couple 20k years) a year when I was racing and still rode a minimum of 10k a year when I switched to speed skating in 2010. Last year was the first year I didn't ride at least 10,000 a year since 2004. I'm a bigger rider at a 185lb race weight. But I still loved climbing so had to descend too. You wear rims out with that much riding with my size and terrain
@@veganpotterthevegan I weigh a little more than that, and still never wore a rim out. Riding in crappy weather will cause severe rim wear.
I would rarely do any training when it was raining or snowing. I'd prefer grinding out the miles on a trainer. In Criteriums, you try not to use your brakes, and when you do, it's just to make slight adjustments to your speed in the corners.
Rim brakes for me. Simple...less complicated and easier to maintain. 😎😎
I got so much info from Neill about bike fitting and now he's also on rim brake it makes me love him even more!!
I like rim brakes. They're easy to replace and service. Main drawback as far as I'm concerned is they wear out the wheel rims eventually, and that means either a new wheel, or completely rebuilding the old one with a new rim.
New carbon disc brake rims cracks, delaminate, pothole damage, etc, not longer life than rim brake rims
Agree. I'd go disc on a bike that spends a lot of time in the rain, not so much for braking power as wear on the rear rim.
I am 100kg, I ride in the rain, and cantilever brakes are as powerful as I would ever want.
Rather that than a weaker dished front wheel with a disc
I see that as a positive. Who doesn't like a wheel upgrade now and then?
Thanks for reassuring me that I'm not riding a dinosaur and can continue to happily ride my 20+ year old rim brake-equipped road bike for years to come. I've never had problems with them, Ultegras, because I don't ride that hard and aggressively, often go down long winding mountain roads, or go out in the rain. For the kind of riding that I do they're more than fine. Plus it sounds like a real PITA to maintain disc brakes. From your description they're essentially mini versions of car disc brakes, and I've worked on those enough to not be keen on the idea of maintaining them on a bike. Very messy and tight tolerances.
In fact there's so many things that are "old school" about my bike that it would just be silly to upgrade most of its components to more modern versions. Ti frame, horizontal top tube, non-integrated (but threadless) headset, raked (carbon) fork, shallow alloy rims, threaded bottom bracket with square tapers, triple crankset, just 10 gears in back, mechanical shifting (but with integrated shifters), external cable routing, alloy seatpost (the one thing, other than wheels, that I might upgrade), narrow (23mm) tires, and, rim brakes. Rides like a dream, built up by myself, barring a catastrophe should literally outlast me.
Neill, I’m not a fan of disc brakes either, but, at least on Shimano, the brake fluid is not caustic, it’s mineral oil. In either case, it would take quite a long time for the seals to harden. But that’s not the problem, and it’s the piston seal design that is what causes the piston to retract, and on R8000 and 9000, 9100, it wasn’t enough. Also of note, Shimano has done something in the latest version of Ultegra, and DuraAce and probably the latest 105, to cause there to be more clearance/retraction when the brakes are released. This is supposed to correct the rubbing noise issue. All that said, the problem with many disc brake bikes isn’t the calipers, it’s the fact that the frame hasn’t been prepped properly. What you’ll find is one or both of two things. First, the brake disc flat mount surface on the frame has paint overspray on it. Secondly, the frames brake disc flat mount surfaces are not true, perpendicular and flat to the centerline of the wheel axle. Park Tool makes a $525 tool to fix the issue, but who has that? And the bikes shouldn’t be leaving the factory needing a complex machining operation to be done. Both of these things wil cause problems with noise and rubbing, and not being able too get an even clearance on both sides when setting up.
A lot of bike shops have tools to face the caliper mount. I wouldn't want anything to do with a bike shop that doesn't have a tool that's every shop should have had 15-20yrs ago. No reason for people to have one in their house, just as there's no reason for most people to have a truing stand.
@@veganpotterthevegan Here in my area every shop I’ve asked didn’t have one, but said “we can get one if we really need to”, so not everyone does, and tbh I’m not sure this tool did exist 15 years ago.
@GNX157 that specific tool didn't exist 15 yrs ago but you don't need that specific tool. I have a new chain whip but chain whips have been around for decades. There are handheld facing tools for every bolt size you can imagine until they're so big that you need a motor to face them. They don't need to be made specifically for bikes. But there have been facing tools made for disc brake bikes for at least 15yrs.
Valid point on the mounting surface. Having to face a caliper mounting surface on a new bicycle is just ridiculous and cost a shop time and labor. It’s really annoying. Then you’ve got bedding, squeaking, etc.
Went with rim brake too on a new bike. Hanging in there for as long as possible incl using my amazing ENVE SES rim brake wheels.
All my bikes are rim brakes. Disc brakes only on my mountain bike.
Me too. My MTB’s brakes are super sensitive.
That is because you would need very big calipers for those broad tyres.
@@jedisentinel1499, does it make annoying noises?
@@freenational not that I can tell other than the pads squeezing the rotors
@@freenational Calipers suck above around 28mm wheels due to reducing mechanical advantage as the calipers get longer. For wider tires, cantilever, including v-brake style cantilever, are what are a valid alternative to disk brakes. As long as you have good pads, have aluminum rims and set them up properly they are pretty much as good as disk brakes. The one advantage disk brakes really have is that they are better at shedding heat.
I love videos with Neill. He seems super knowledgeable, especially when it comes to bike fit. And he just seems like a nice, genuine guy.
Rim brakes have no reason to be replaced....other than disc brakes need a lot of totally new bikes....lots of sales for the industry. standing against the wall at Starbucks, you can see, right off, when someone has a "modern" bike..
What a scam! Hopefully they'll get wise and keep offering a rim brake..Like press-fit BBs, sometimes the new stuff is not good for the riders and they learn to avoid it...
@@dhanso928 I just don’t get it. Disc brakes offer plenty of concrete advantages, no reason to shit on someone just because they prefer that. The extra stopping power and performance in the wet can’t be denied - and the tiny amount of weight added is very overhyped. There’s a reason disc brakes are now the preference in many race bikes.
@@Ferrichrome Not dissing anyone... However, discs aren't "preferred" by pros, they are riding them because their contracts require them to. They're probably not allowed to say anything, but a few seem to have defied team orders and let slip their opinions about that...The bike sponsors pay big bucks to have teams ride what they want to sell....The teams make big money riding whatever gives them the biggest deal....as long as it's not losing them races.
If you want to talk wet...The limit to shortest braking is tire traction..a sliding tire doesn't care whether it's disc or rim...But hey, if it's what is being said, over and over and over again by all the shills...Discs are better..(for the sellers, for sure)
@@dhanso928 to each their own. In my experience, my rim brakes don’t work if my bike has been sitting in the rain for some time - I have to “test” them several times before they start to get grip on the wet rim. I just dislike when someone states their own opinion as if it’s fact, when there legitimate reasons to go either way🤷♂️
And sure, you can try and turn everything into a conspiracy… yes, these companies exist to make money, of course that’s true. And I’m sure that’s part of the reason. But many people say they will never go back to rim brakes after trying disc. The easier stopping power makes the brakes more usable for more types of riders, as stated by the video.
@@Ferrichrome True. I hope the rim brakes aren't removed from the industry though, but they probably will be because they work fine and are less profitable for the industry.
I have a love hate relationship with disc road, got both systems and like both. My rim brakes are campy chorus 12, spd version and brake excellent on carbon tubular wheels, arguably as good as my disc. The lever effort with compressionless housings is much the same. The only difference I've found is that rim carbon braking always has a latency, something you don't get on disc brakes.
Regarding groupset weight, I think it's about 200g difference or less with my disc group over the rim equivalent ,it's very small. Alignment is a pita though, after months of no disc rub my front got a noticeable warp to the point I'll just put a new one on. I do my own mechanical work otherwise you could see yourself at bike shop a lot. A good point though of disc that's often overlooked is the ability to ride with full braking in the event if a broken spoke or an accident that results in a warped wheel.
It's true that with disc brakes you can still brake properly when you have a broken spoke, but the irony is that disc brakes make broken spokes more likely due to the fact (which Neill mentioned) that the braking force has to be transferred from the hub through the spokes to the tire. This (broken spoke) happened to me, and to a friend during a group ride, both were disc brake bikes. I never had a broken spoke with rim brakes
@@DominikLoeffler1 I had two pillar 1420 spikes go after about 15000 kms on a back disc wheel. The failures occured in the same spots, where the spots entered the rim hole as they were hidden nipple built. The drilled hole angle were too right angle caused a stress point something that could've been mitigated by drilling the holes asymmetrically. My other wheels are all conventionally laced with the nipple external .
@@DominikLoeffler1 me never have broken spokes with disk brakes but with rim brakes my whole wheel set need to change
@@user-nu5fx6en9h sure, but that is just anecdotal evidence that I added. It doesn't change the underlying physics. Of course a disc wheelset can be designed to not break spokes, but then you're still left with the disadvantage of higher weight as Neill explained
I always "rode a bike" but now, at 40 years old, I'm just cracking into "cycling." I'm loving all your stuff, Neill! Please keep it coming! The other RCA team members aren't bad, either :)
Valid points, thanks for another great video!
I think as long as we have a choice, rim and disc can and should co-exist. I am just a bit skeptical rim will survive, and seeing that not everything is better with disc brakes (how could it be, that's a very rare occasion in any of life's disciplines), I would really want rim brakes to be available in the future, especially with decent brake pads on aluminium rims.
Threaded BBs are back, though :-P
As far as I undestood, the contact patch tyre to road is also less grippy in rain, questionning the need for the (superior) power of disc brakes here, imho.
Also, I hear frames and forks are heavier for disc systems, all other stabiility factors being equal, because of the brake forces on the tip of the fork/dropouts are high and single sided (even hubs need some extra grams of torsional reinforcement, compared to rim brake systems).
The thing that i like about hydraulic brakes is the brake feel, which is just superior to mechanical brakes. Which is why i think mechanical disc brakes suck, better use rim brakes if you're going the mechanical route.
If they can create rim brakes that has the same smooth brake feel of hydraulic brakes, then i might go back to rim brakes.
@@sepg5084 Mechanical discs are fine, they’re just really sensitive to the condition, quality and routing of the cable. If the cable is spot on, they’re pretty good.
Great video. I'm 65 years old now and have been riding rim brake bikes for all my life. The only issue I have ever had with rim brakes is that, when riding in rain or through puddles, they CAN lose braking power. The solution: as soon as you have ridden through that puddle, close your brakes a bit to remove most of the excess water from the rim, and also REMEMBER you are riding in wet conditions and brake early. I have yet to own a bike with disc brakes. I agree with all your cons about discs: finicky, hard to adjust pads, constant rubbing issues, bleeding, etc. I'm not looking fwd to EVER having to deal with disc brakes. Only problem is that rim brake wheels are getting scarce.... Thanks for the vid! Now get out and ride.
Disc brakes require more maintenance, but I find it worth the trouble to have excellent stopping power in weather and while descending. One point that he doesn't bring up (which I suspect is part of the reason why manufacturers like disc brakes so much), is that wheel manufacturers don't have to build up the sidewalls of the rims as much, since brakes are clamping on the discs, rather than the rims. I would much rather have heat buildup on the discs than the rims. Rim brake wheels are slightly lighter, but not by much. Disc brake bikes are heavier (maybe due to hydraulic lines, etc), but well worth it, IMO. For less hilly riding, I feel like aerodynamics play more of a role than overall weight of the bike. My $.02.
Agreed. Carbon rim delamination is a scary thought going downhill at 30mph
And carbon delamination is super rare and probably can be felt in the levers before a problem
Rims brakes are terrible they ware out fast and if the rim is dented from a bump they make it hard to ride , this guy hasnt got a clue to what he is talking about
I have only 1 bike, I don't generally go out in the rain (too old for that too), but it did happen that the rain gained up on me. I was happy to have my disc brake bike. 25000+ Km on them, never adjusted them and they don't rub at all (cross fingers & toes for next season).
Another quible, not mentionned, is the rim brake surface on different wheels (carbon or alu) can get worn out with rim brakes. Then you need to change your rims, much more complicated than changing you rotors.
But I agree, rim brakes are very easy to work on. I wouldn't touch my disc brakes, afraid they would rub afterwards.
I have H11s on my Cx bike and rim brakes on my road bike. IMO the rims are the best option. As you said, even the best brake is negated by the contact patch. The great equalizer. Rim brakes stop just as well as disk and are lighter and easier to maintain. It's a no brainer. Disks are a scam by the industry to get everyone to buy more kit.
The best brakes I’ve got on a bike is v-brakes,you can have any size tyre you can fit and they stop better than all my disc brake bikes and they are lighter and don’t jam up in sand.They work great in the rain also no issues with rubbing or anything,I hate the disc brakes in all the bikes I have that came with them.
Vbrakes are so insanely underrated. It's too bad they never got their day in the sun with road bikes/gravel bikes. They're just the natural evolution of cantilever brakes.
Dual pivot rim brakes are great, and, crucially, change the brake pads for top flight ones like SwissStop BXP compound, this makes a huge difference.
BXP's are great. I've used a few sets myself. Kool Stop pads in my opinion are a bit better. Both better choices than stock Shimano pads.
Good pre-stretched cabling and compression less housing if you really need to make them snap.
Got both Bontrager and eeBrakes. Both are absolutely awesome.
Totally agree with Neil's comments, I switched bikes from a rim brake Wilier with Campagnolo Record to a Cannondale with Ultegra discs and that was a huge mistake, the stopping power of the Campy's was superb in all conditions. never had any issues regardless of weather and now my bike is so much heavier, and really noticeable where I live as its really hilly plus I have had issues with the pads sticking and squealing. My next bike will have rim brakes even if it means buying one a couple of years old.
🤘👍👍👍
Yes
@@markclements1509 “so much heavier” 🤣
Say… wouldn’t the addition of a few more grams make you a stronger rider?
Coming from MTB, I started with disk (sl7) but recently switched to a rim brake Look. Absolutely no regrets so far.
What about the cost and maintenance issue?
All true but also some of us after trying carbon still prefer Alloy rims which ride/stop fine in the rain 😉
Alloy rims and brake rubber pads are a match made in heaven, for some miraculous physics they even stop better in the wet
What about the cost of replacing wheels when the rim brakes wear out the braking surface? I own two rim brakes bikes but wonder if the cost of replacement discs is lower in the long run.
Easy to agree with Neill. Just purchased my new road bike few months ago and still managed to get one with rim brakes. Super happy!
Do you use full carbon rims or do you use alloy braking surface wheels? Is full carbon too dangerous? Thank you
It comes down to how one brakes too. Dragging on them on long descents is a fast way to cook up the rims and blow them up.
No wheelset can last long without proper braking technique.
Thanks
At 95 Kilo I still ride rim brake bikes here in the mountains of Virginia. I still use canti's on my CX bike though I definitely can see the benefit of disk there. I see absolutely no need for disk on the road. Disk brakes are wonderful for mountain bike riding where you bomb down to every corner, get through it, then bomb down to the next corner but it's just not like that on a road bike except for those few hair pin mountain descents but even then you are on pavement not loose dirt. It's just not a problem that needs to be solved.
Fully agree. At least, rim brakes are not an option to be taken away 🙂
I stocked up on calipers and some rims, too. Market may do what market does.
Nah my rim brakes always damage my wheelset and have to change my rim once a year… the cost was too much so I moved to disk brakes😁
@@user-nu5fx6en9h Are you riding on dirt roads? I've got campy tubular wheel sets from the 70's that still work. Not that I use them a lot on my vintage bikes but still.
@@BennoSattler I got a set of Zipp 303's last year in excellent condition for $250 bucks. I LOVE disk brakes :)
I agree with all his points, but this is my positive experience with going disk's, in 2016 I got a road bike with shimano disk brakes, they are un-named and I believe it was before disks came to dura-ace and ultegra.
I strictly ride climbs so I'm always using the brakes and I have never done a bleed, original resin pads lasted less than a year but I changed to metal sintered pads and have only replaced once! Also never had problems with alignment as there is a good gap between the pad and rotor, breaking power is still as good as new.
On the other hand sram mtb brakes have been a nightmare, warranty issues, overheating failures, alignment problems, pistons not retracting, lacking power, noisy, any problem... I have had it on 4 bikes.
Rim brakes are definitely lighter and less expensive than disc, and for road riding rim brakes stop well enough, but especially with carbon rims in the rain, disc brakes are just less worrisome. Since I do ride in the rain fairly regularly, I don't think I'll be going back to rim brakes anytime soon.
Once you get used to them, disc bakes aren't much more of a maintenance faff than rim brakes. Once I learned the trick of setting up new pads to have slightly more clearance, I haven't experienced much rubbing or ticking.
What's that trick?
Florian maybe he think about pushing pistons back. Maintaining disk brakes , pads, discs are quite simple. On yt are many great videos for learning
@@Scarab002 Remove the wheel and brake pads, and loosen the bleed port screw to relieve some pressure in the line. Push the pistons in, tighten the bleed port screw back up, replace the pads and wheel, and recenter the calipers if necessary. Before centering, it's helpful to use one of those pad spacer tools that go over the disc rotor to increase the space between the rotor and the pads.
ua-cam.com/video/hBdJYX8tICA/v-deo.html
Very true, for safety reasons I go disk brakes 100%
This, plus I experience it to be easier to clean the bike after a ride in the rain. You do not have the dirt from the brakepads everywhere on your bike as you had with rimbrakes. I believe they will still become lighter in the future and also easier to adjust. The current Dura Ace is great in this respect, although not perfect, and at least one level above the previous Dura Ace. Also the current DA does not need maintenance for a long time after you have set it up correctly.
Love this constructive explanation for pro disc and pro rim.
I went full retro this year. 2nd Cervélo R5 frame-set with SRAM Red eTap Rim version.
Soooo light and sooo beautiful to ride.
Hope my frame won't break soon.
If you lie in Australia, you really don't need disc brakes. The weathers great 95% of the time, and thats not worth the hassle of hydro brakes.
do you use tubular or tubeless/clincher? i hear people say it could be dangerous to use tubeless/clincker/TPU on rim breaks
I’m heavy and I’m a bike commuter in London, so avoiding the rain is not an option. My current ride is a cheap rim brake bike, and I’ve had a couple of scary moments when I couldn’t stop, so I’m saving up for my next bike which will be disk.
I dont know up or down nearly on a road bike. Looking at a Ridley grifn allroad with 105 group set and Shimano RS171 DB wheels. It is any good for a new cyclist?
What's super neat about rim brakes is that the wheel does double duty as the rotor, adding simplicity and lightness.
No is not you havre asymetric front and rear wheel
I ride rim brake, and this advantage is a double edge sword, as if you ride on a lot of wet roads, you get shit on your rim, and it will get scratched and wear out over time. Some would see this as an advantage as they will then need to buy a new wheel, others will not like the expense of the upgrade 🙂
Any views on Magura rim brakes versus cabled rim brakes ? I converted an old road / mountain bike to an ebike. It is now much heavier and takes a lot of squeezing power to stop the bike anyway quickly. Would changing to Megura hydraulic rim brakes require much less squeezing power ? Would that be a solution for me ? Thanks.
I recently purchased a Dogma F with rim brakes and love it. I didn’t think I needed disc brakes. I do not ride in the rain and I do not do a lot of steep descent. I am 6’ 2 and 240😊lbs with a footballer build and rim brakes have worked fine for me . I hope Pinarello continues making rim brake frames.
So glad I saw this video. Currently shopping bikes now, I’m amazed how complicated bikes have become and for no other reason than marketing. It the equivalent of someone who buys a Jeep and drives to the mall. By sticking with rim brakes, I can swap parts between bikes and do most of the upkeep myself. At some point, I think you have to ask yourself, is this tech really beneficial, or is just making something fun, like cycling, more expensive and hard to upkeep? Look forward to the “electronic group set” take..
Eh, most disc brakes use interchangeable parts and all use the same type of mounts (flat or post). You can even use the same disc brake fluid between brands. Imo it’s not that hard to maintain, especially with mechanical discs.
Note - I currently use rim brakes too, and if that’s your preference, more power to you! But there’s plenty out there, myself included, who have had no issue with disc brakes.
Get a different opinion. Most friends around me are changing to disc brakes from rim brakes. If you are buying a mid -high end bike, I strongly suggest disc brake also for better resale value. Most of the latest bike in the market are all disc brakes, you will not have good resale value for rim brakes bike because more and more higher end bike owners have disc brake components , wheels and unlikely they get a rim brake bike.
Personally I own a rim brake felt F4 and a disc brake Trek Madone.
Rim for road disc for dirt. IYKYK.
I dropped $$ on a disc brake bike thanks to being persuaded by my LBS.
I have sold it and ordered custom made rim frames. I am never going back and I was running Dura Ace on the disc bike.
How the hell did I cope with Rim brakes for the last 40 years living in a wet country 🤷🏻♀️. If you can’t brake in the wet with rim brakes then you shouldn’t be on a fucking bike in the 1st place.
Do new carbon rim brake wheels not have the sandpaper sounds when braking? I had a rim brake bike with carbon wheels and i couldn't stand the sounds of braking i swapped out the wheels with alloy tracks instead.
Forgot to mention with disc brakes frames can be designed for larger tire clearance. Also that your brakes won't be eating away and eroding expensive carbon rims.
Yes good points Saad, thanks for adding to the thread...I think Neill was eager to get to the downsides though. haha. Cam
It's easy to make rim brakes and rim brake frames with larger clearances. The industry's marketing machine feels disc brakes are sexier.
if you use the right pads with the right rim surface you can get good braking performance and next to no rim wear. I have a set of corima wheels with corima pads and they brake really well and it took almost a year of riding to get any indication of wear whatsoever. I'm going to destroy the wheel on in a crash long before the rim wears out.
@@albr4 My friend's usd2k carbon rims brake explode and cause massive crash in peloton (weekend ride). Who gonna pay other's lost?
Some YT with rim brake change to disc brake cause his expensive wheels start bulging!
Get rid of the problem that can cause fatal accident!
Need less effort to pull hydraulic shifters (feel smooth).
Lighter? But everyone says the bike weight doesn't matter, what matters is being aero? (Sarcasm).
I'm 104kg, 6ft 8" and have bikes with both rim and disc brakes. I live in rural SE Sweden.
Except for mountain biking (which I don't often do) there are rarely any occasions where disc brakes are superior. On the road, I hardly ever need to brake (due to minimal traffic and good road design). In winter, very strong braking force is ill advised due to snow and ice.
The maintenance issues with the discs drive me nuts. Misalignments, pad stand off issues etc. The misery that is fixing a puncture and having rubbing discs all the way home.
My main summer bike is now rim brakes and I'm very happy about that.
Tja! Är också bosatt i Stockholm och väger 98kg. Pendlar mellan rim eller disc. Ska köra min första lvg cykel nämligen. Är du fortfarande för rim idag?
Exactly
Great video. Really helps explain the pros and cons without overcomplicating the subject matter. While i really want a disc brake bike this video helped me decided I really don’t need one. If i have to add weight and complexity for only minor gains I will stick with my alloy wheels and Kool stops they havent let me down yet.
Great vid! Also the front forks need to be stiffer too, due to the forces from the front calliper, this makes disc brake bikes less comfortable
I don't agree with that at all. Have you ridden bikes with disc brakes? They aren't less comfortable. I have an apples to apples comparison. I owned a rim brake Cannondale SuperSix. I then bought one with disc brakes. The disc brake one doesn't ride worse at all. There isn't more chatter in the bars either. That is with the same width tires.
@@DaveCM In my opinion, with the same tires the disc bike is overall stiffer. Going to larger tires does mitigate the extra stiffness. Though, disc bikes are getting better. Each brand is different so for the SuperSix you may be right.
@@SherazChoudhary with the SuperSix, there was no difference. I have a 2018. I haven't ridden the newer model.
Great vid. Thanks. The warping of discs you mention is a result of the greater heat of discs versus rims. On long steep descents with hairpins those rotors can get red hot and start to fade. I have Campag skeketon rim brakes and hand built 24/20 alloy rims. Utterly reliable with minimal fettling and no noise. Like you, I don’t ride in the wet anymore (and coped in the wet with rims just find) so disc brakes are irrelevent for me.
the bad conditions argument can only be valid if used by those who actually ride outdoors when conditions are bad.
excellent video and makes a lot of sense. suggestion for Neill, should add resistance weight training to his workout and some upper body exercises. Will do wonders for a cyclists overall body physique and bone mineralization.
Loving it! honest and transparent review, I can not agree more ... market shift to disk brakes has been the biggest move to force users to change bikes, frames, wheels and groupsets ever ... absolutely unjustified and lifting prices to an insane level. Rim brakes are a very logic and practical option for most of bikers ... stand up for them!!! ;)
Love the wheelset on the bike - I have a set of the Caden "Decadence" wheels on my bike too. I ride rim brakes on the roadie and do most of my riding in the hills (Dandenongs in Melbourne) and find braking generally fine in the wet. I always felt that tyre adhesion was is the biggest limitation, plus I tend not to ride as hard down hill in the wet anyway. A couple of times I have been glad I wasn't on disc brakes... one time when descending at speed I hit a fair bump whilst braking semi-firmly. The bump caused me to effectively grab a handful of front brake and almost lock the front wheel. This might have gone horribly wrong on the discs?
Having said that I love the discs on my MTB and will likely have discs when I (one day) upgrade my roadie
For road bikes rim brakes all day. After 70000kms in the last 6 years across multiple bikes never worn through the braking surface on any aluminium wheel sets. Have used discs for a brief period and the squealing/screeching noise drove me mad.
That shit never goes away.
How long does a carbon brake rim last when you ride hills++?
I've seen 4 guys get rim heat flats descending Mt Glorious near Brisbane
I was mountain biking in a hilly part of the UK through 12 winters, off-road using a Shimano hydraulic disc brake set up and it has been faultless, just 3 sets of pads which I replaced myself. For them to work through all the crap that was thrown at them, I was amazed. I've now gone on to road biking in the Peak District of the UK and the rim brakes on my racing bike (Shimano 105 on Fulcrum aluminium wheels) seem next to useless by comparison, especially in the wet and I have to brake much earlier than my disc-equipped mates, squeezing for my life to get some stopping effect on the wet rims. I like to go fast downhill, only weigh 62kg, so would go for disc brakes every time.
Agree w you, my hydro Shimano SLX on a hardtail have 2,000 miles, got them flushed at my LBS, had a few pad sets, no problems. If they squeal clean the disc with alcohol, then pull the pads out and clean them.
So your mountain bike has the same tire width as your road bike? If not, you are comparing apples to oranges. Not even close to the same thing. Also, 105 brakes are soft. The caliper arms are cast aluminum, not forged as R8000 or R9100 are. Big difference. Also, ditch the stock shimano brake shoes in favor of some Swiss Stop shoes for Alloy rim tracks.
I’m planning to build a custom Ti bike and I want to use rim brakes, but I also want to run 32s on it.
Is there a rim brake that will work for that width of tire and rim? Or, would I need cantilever brakes? I do NOT want to use those gawd awful looking things.
Look forward to hearing some feedback.
Rim brakes please !! I can’t stand the rubbing !
Just recently got a new bike with discs front and rear. I had to do a panic stop and the front brake put me over the bars into an iron fence. To compensate I now ride with 2 fingers on the rear and 1 or none on the front. I wish they had an adjustable pressure modulating valve for the front.
Rim brakes are never a pain in the ass and are adequate most of the time, but when they aren’t (wet carbon rims) they are really, really inadequate. Disc brakes are often a pain in the ass but are adequate all of the time. So the choice is one of occasional terror vs. chronic annoyance.
I think they're mostly a pain in the ass for you because you're not used to them. I come more from a mountainbike background so i'm considerably more used to disc brakes, when i had gotten into road biking a couple years ago nothing frustrated me more than rim brakes, whether it was the common maintenance needed with them or just the considerably worse braking performance in modulation and being in my opinion way more likely to lock up. I'm super happy that disc brakes have become a norm in the road biking industry because they last long, easier to maintain and you'll likely only have to worry about the oil 1-2 years down of usage. Yes disc brakes get out of alignment commonly when you take your wheel off but realigning it is just as easy as taking your wheel off.
In my opinion there's too much stubbornness around people wanting to stick with rim brakes because they're simply too used to it and don't wanna move onto something new.
@Exphised nah, I have 5 bikes all born before 2000. The decisive factor IS wheel lock/ adhesion of tyre to road.
@@peterwillson1355 You're still more likely to lock up with rim brakes due to the lack of modulation, it is very noticeably different how much easier a rim brake locks up the wheel compared to a disc brake.
Just returned from the Dolomites having ridden over 7000mtrs of climbing/descending - some 30k long descents - all on rim brakes with no problems at all (78kg + 8kg bike)
These are my complaints with disc brakes:
1. They are more difficult to maintain. It almost requires a magnifying glass to see when your pads are worn out. They require lubrication and if any gets on the disc or pads, they're finished. And the pads are many times more expensive than rim brakes, while not lasting much, if any, longer. The calipers can be troublesome to center, and the disc may get bent.
2. In snowy climates, you may lock your bike up outside, and return to find your calipers are frozen, which happened to me. I don't know if water froze inside, or the cold just shrunk the metal around the piston. In any case, without heated storage, you just have to wait for spring. It's not easy to replace pads or fix them when it is 0F. They freeze your fingers fast.
3. They add a lot of expense to a bicycle, and unnecessary complexity. They require a special wheel incompatible with other wheels, as if bicycles need more incompatibilities. They require a special spoke arrangement because the forces on the wheel are unbalanced with disc brakes. They require special forks too.
4. The benefit disc brakes provide is almost nothing, especially compared to the drawbacks. The most people can say is that disc brakes work better in the rain. Sand and mud are another story. And i hear they may be easier to lock up if you are a 90 year old woman with arthritic fingers. Suspicious claim.
I see it as just another corporate profiteering scam, like making food packaging look bigger when you actually get less product. Bikes should be as simple as possible. They should be all terrain, all weather, by default. They should be ready to use at anytime to go anywhere. And they will become increasingly important as energy costs rise. What is needed more than anything IMHO is a standards organization. International Bike Standards, so that mfrs of components can start cranking out components with low costs and high quality. I've spent the last 6 months trying to find out where I can buy a new 48t 1x crankset with 200mm arms, and a chainring protector. And I'm still looking for someone that can do it under $500.
Bike mechanic here
#1 mech disc brakes are easier to maintain than rim, bar none. No spring adjustments, no pad straightening etc and it’s easy as hell to see pad wear, just look to see how close the material is to the base. To adjust you loosen 2 bolts, squeeze tighten and you’re done. Nothing on your disc brakes requires lubricant anymore than your rim brakes, I use a dropper on pivot points for both types if they’re rusted bad. The pads are identical in cost at my shop to rim pads, they might be a dollar more but that’s it, there are high end rim pads just like there are high end disc pads. Rim brakes ruin an entire rim whereas disc brakes ruin an 18-30$ rotor that takes years of riding or a couple years of hard trail riding to seriously wear out.
#2 Having to wait till spring is untrue, if water froze in your mechanical rim lines it’d be the same thing. If it was under -4 it could have stiffened up the mineral oil if they were hydraulic, in which case you would just need a DOT brake fluid bike, which is on any SRAM groupie, I know plenty of people that ride in freezing conditions. Pads are easy to replace too idk what the deal is, pop out a cotter pin or a screw, pry the pistons and install. Rim brakes you undo the cable, use a 5mm hex to remove the pads and then you pivot the pads, sounds just as hard or worse.
#3 if you have a rim brake bike you need a rim brake wheel which are just as common as disc wheels in my experience and the cost difference is very small. You wouldn’t put a 29er on a 26 right? You’d just get the right wheel.
#4 Disc brakes are better in every metric, it comes down to preference. SRAM brakes don’t lock up Shimanos or TRPs and allow for a lot of modulation. Some people prefer softer braking but as someone who regularly rides rim brakes on a track bike I would prefer disc all day. Hands fatigue less, you spend less time on the levers(more important for drop bars) and if you’ve ridden with them for more than 15 minutes you get acquainted with the brake reaction. There’s dual piston, quad piston, 160mm rotors, 180s, 200+ whatever you need for your riding preferences. Friends of mine ride muddy single track with hydraulic brakes and have no issues, I’ve rarely locked up a tire on accident and it’s always been the rear on a bike I’m not familiar with, they’re easy to control. I’ve locked my rim brakes up more than a couple times.
Your crankset issue is unrelated but yeah there does need to be some standardization, for the most part bb tech is leveling out. 200mm crank arms are ridiculous for a mtb, road or gravel bike assuming that’s what it’s for. I’m 6’7 and I’m riding 175s on a frame size under my actual size so I think you just need a different bike lol. Hardly anyone has 200mm cranks, that’s pretty special. 48t, with nice gx cranks would run you 140 I think for cranks maybe 30-40 for an after market milled chain ring if you want to stay cheap from race face, install would be 30 and that includes finding all the parts for you so idk how you’re hitting $500
@@dirtyred2000
200mm is normal for a 38in inseam. Everyplace I've found wants about $600 for a complete crankset. Zinn for example and other custom mfrs.
1. No, I never had to adjust a spring or pad with rim brakes. It's not easy to see pads. They are a 2 centimeters or so down inside a narrow crevice where everything is black. The disc brakes I have are cable adjusted, not by squeezing pads. Where I live, pads are $30 and rim brakes are $8. No, that's BS, rim pads don't destroy wheels. So, I am hearing propaganda now. I am not worried about the disc wearing out, I am saying it is an extra unnecessary expense and component and it creates unbalanced forces on a wheel. It is also dumb from a physics view because it is far easier to stop a wheel using friction on the rim than near the center of a wheel. I am saying they offer no advantage. The bicycle industry has been taken over by weirdos. 2 discs and 2 calipers certainly cost a lot more than 2 squares of rubber. Probably adds $100 to the cost of a bicycle. The pad dust is probably toxic too and discs make it more of a PITA to remove and insert wheels. And more difficult to see when a wheel is centered in the forks.
2. I could not use my bike at all last winter because I don't have heated storage, and the rear disc brake froze in the closed position. In the spring, it worked again. Something froze in it but I didn't have time or a place to analyze it well. I don't like messing around with metal in 0F. I would not have that kind of problem with rim brakes. Rim brakes are far easier to replace. Your views are skewed if you work on them all day. The average person doesn't need to investigate anything to change rim brakes. And they are easily visible. Nobody ever complained about rim brakes except for the freaks of the bicycle industry. In 50 years of riding bicycles, I never said: gee, I wish i had disc brakes. I always thought cantilever brakes were fine. Simple. We used to call them center pull in the early 80s.
3. I don't agree that rim wheels are easy to find. Not locally. And they are not interchangeable with disc wheels. Basically, disc brakes locks you into a bike that is made for disc brakes only. The entire bicycle has to be designed around disc brakes. It's not like they are an option.
4. I'm 6'3, 38in inseam. 200mm is my perfect size, 175 is too small and forces the too high seat to be 1in higher. I am not interested in a bicycle for sport. I need to ride all terrains, all weather, and all distances, even 120mi/day. I don't like bad ergonomics. If you can get me a 200mm crankset with a replaceable chainring with a guard, in the 40t size, for $200 or whatever, I'll buy one from you. I meant 40t, not 48t. Sorry. I have a 36t, and uphill is too easy and downhill has no gearing.
Haha 200mm is absurd unless you're either in the top 100 tallest people in the world, or else have some growth defect or deformity that makes you have a VERY weird proportion of leg bones.
In any case, no one is going to mass market that, you need custom, just like someone missing a limb needs a custom prosthetic.
(As for the disc brake stuff, all the stuff you're saying is nonsense 😂 and feel free to keep using rim brakes if you want while the rest of us move on)
@@galenkehler no, you are nonsense. Go use a crank arm calculator if you don't believe me, or see Zinn bicycles.
Switched from rim brakes to discs some time ago after riding for thousands of miles and wearing the fuck out of my old bike’s rims to the point where only the back brake barely worked in the rain. In all honesty I’m not going to replace the things that make the bike move because of the thing that’s supposed to stop them. My vision is 20/16 (better than 20/20, i can see whet a normal person needs 16 feet for in 20) so seeing the wear on the disc pads is no problem. just go on craigslist and get a bike there, my first bike with discs was a state 6061 that the original owner invested ~$1800 in - including a replacement to the bad brakes the bike is known for, which i got for $442 on craigslist. low costs and high quality is used stuff bro
I do notice my rim brake specialized roval carbons are terrible in the wet but I ride in the dry so not such a huge issue. If i get caught out I just need to be carefull
In my opinion, rim brake bikes if setup properly, ride so much nicer and smoother than a disc brake bike. They are also lighter and easier to maintain requiring fewer tools to fix unlike bleed kits. They do have their disadvantages especially in the mountains riding down hill at speed but besides that way nicer.
Well setup rim brakes with Kool stop pads are a joy
What bontrager brake calipers did he have?
i'd want disc brakes for the wider tire fit, 30c to 32c i'd love to have that, i can only fit 25c on mine and my roads can be rough and i'm not 20 anymore.
just find a rim brake frame that can take wider tyres, they're out there.
@@blahqweVery limited choice though. And also you will likely have to use deep drop / long caliper brakes, which are not going to be as powerful.
I love my Campag rim brakes, if I brake too hard, then i'm over the bars.
having weighed the pros and cons, I'll stick with the rim brakes (ultegra) already on my bike. light, low maintenance, quiet, and not used enough to think about changing to disc brakes really.
I am in the States. I own a 2015 Specialized Secteur with rim brakes that I use in NY State (hills, hills, and more hills.) Never a problem in the rain. I ride the bike 2,500-2700 miles from May to October. I still have the original pads on the bike. I am now in the market for a road bike at my Florida home. Any recommendations for a road bike with rim brakes and a decent Shimano groupset? All of the bikes I was considering have disc brakes, but after watching this video, I will stick with rim brakes. Thank you!
My little collection exists of Tarmac SL6 Tiagra (disc), Colnago CX1 Campa (rim) and BMC TeamMachine SLR01 Ultegra (rim) and all of them brake very well. Both rim brake bikes have alloy wheels and that's quite important for braking performance. As Neill states, the input with discs is less than with rim.
So rim brake is better because they are:
Lighter
Quieter (even though everyone wants the loudest hub possible...)
Easier to work on
Don't have brake rub issues like disc
Good for weather nazis that dont ride in the rain
Ok got it...
Nothing to do with safety... Just weight weenie stuff and being to sensitive to raindrops...
I have mechanical disc... (Trp spyre slc). Had them for ages.
Each brake pad has its own independent adjustment to push or pull the pad away from the rotor. I have never experienced brake rub in my life. They are heaps easier to work on than rim brakes.
In carbon applications, beauty about disc is that you aren't overheating the area where the tire attaches to the rim. So on a carbon rim brake, you risk heating up your rim on descends to the point where your tire will come off the bead/glue... Then no amount of brake will stop you.
This means youll have to go with aluminum wheels since they dissipate heat better, but then you negate all the weight savings of a rim brake...
Theres a reason 90% of peoples main bikes are disc.
There will always be a small percentage of people that are resistant to change and are stubborn, and tunneled with their bias views.
I get it. I've been there.
I've come from racing Mx and Enduro......my favourite thing since moving to cycling is listening to life time cyclists talking about disc break's and tubeless
Good one! I'm 70 and have moved over to disc brakes and tubeless. No debate they are better, but they are a little trickier to work on for us old farts. 🙂 Happy trails!
Great analysis! I never thought of all those aspects.
Rim brakes, never a problem in 45 years racing cyclist. If you can't ride rim in the wet then you shouldn't be riding a bike.
Just got a custom Ti frame with V brakes, lighter and the V’s are awesome in stopping and modulation and I can fit 36mm tires
Luv you Neill. Brilliant narrative. You are an industry leader and thanks for your honesty.
I have owned it all and you said it perfectly.
Now to make you laugh. I built a 40 mph Specialized Aluminum Allez dropbar roadbike with 1700 watt BBSHD mid drive motor and rim brakes with Campy aluminum wheels.
Never need more braking power. I am a big boy at 83 kilos and from the US. Can lock either or both wheels up if I like.
Many top pros are privately contemptuous of disc brakes mostly due to rubbing like Chris Froome who of course like me grew up racing on rim brakes. What is laughable is...until disc brakes because the rage and the scourge of the industry, nobody ever felt they needed more braking power because the contact patch is the weakest link. This is the bike industry standing on a nickel which is the same as electric shifting, integrated handlebars with through the stem cable management...press fit bottom brackets after 10 years of screwing the public only to return to BSA as an 'improvement'. Shameless greed.
And Neill....you will always be able to ride rim brakes brother. Even if all bike frames with rim brakes dry up which they won't, you will always be able to find a frame builder make you a nice Ti road bike you can build with rim brakes to your spec.
You are a talented man with a great sense of irony and the industry is better with you in it.
I'm new into cycling and see left and eight about the argument of rim vs disc. Rim brake scratches rims. How long these rims generally last?
I bought my first disc brake-equipped road bike nearly two years ago. The downsides Neill mentions are absolutely true. And, when I bought the bike, I lived in the flat and really didn’t need them.
I have since moved to the mountains, where I descend through patches of cloud and rain unpredictably…for ten or fifteen miles at a stretch.
So I’m glad I have them. But man do I have some fits over getting them to stop rubbing. I cannot abide that tch-tch noise of rubbing brakes.
I learnt from my mechanic that some disc brake rub (that quiet steam engine sound you sometimes get), can sometimes be solved by simply making sure your thru-axles are torqued to spec properly. I was having massive brake rub issues, and it turns out the contributor was an under-torqued axle. Once I started tightening them to spec, the problem seemed to go away.
Disc brake rub for me now doesn't generally last for more than 5-10 seconds after a long descent or extreme braking situation
I have a 2005 Colnago and am starting to look for a new bike. I do not like Disc brakes for the reason you stated. (I do want to put on 28's though.) Unless I go used market, who sells bikes with rim brakes anymore?
If only rim calipers allowed for wider tyres (>28-30mm) it would be a slam dunk decision and we wouldn’t need this discussion.
We were all fine until they began promoting wider tires as being just as fast or even faster and more comfortable than 23 & 25.
One of the draws of the new technology is the clean look of the bikes with disc brakes and electronic shifting as the the cables only appear as they feed out of the stays and fork into the brakes. Very pleasing to the eye but not to the eyes of the mechanics that have work on them from what I understand.
Since I don’t own a bike with the latest disc brake and electronic shifting I wonder how much more are the labor costs to have work done on them.
@timdixo yes. really important to mention, as this is also for me the biggest pro disc brakes
Cantis do and modern cantis are excellent. I have yet to hear a good reason why they're not more popular.
I had a top level Colnago with discs, even with new discs, new pads and hours to try to get it to stop squeeling that you could hear a block away.
After riding around with disc brakes for a while now I got caught in a downpour on my second bike (rim brakes, carbon wheels) last week. Bloody hell 😂.
Yeah I got rained on last week at night and was going to ride the rim brake bike but glad I took the disc.
Built my cheap Chinese ti bike with cable pulled disc brakes just for the rainy season. It's been awesome riding in the rain.
I'm glad to see someone honestly discuss the pros and cons of rim vs. disc brakes as opposed to just mindlessly saying that disc brakes are the greatest thing since sliced bread... (And I have a specific problem with Shimano hydraulic road levers -- I have some arthritis in my right thumb, and the angular shape of the lever body where the hose comes out really aggravates that when I ride on the hoods.)
Highly agree. The other downside to disk brakes is the front fork must be much stronger to resist twist when braking, leading to a stiffer fork hence the need for front suspension in all the endurance bikes.
I agree with Neil plus I will add this, new rim brakes are as effective (not to mention the modulation the lever has compared to disc) as disc brakes plus with the newest pads on the market if you ride on rain, you will be surprised how the rim brakes works, try for example the SwissStop purple pads.
Funny - I never considered the fact that discs can warp. I always felt like disc brakes would mean the end of having to go to a bike shop 2x during riding season to get my wheels trued - I was wrong.
I feel much more secure in my recent (December) purchase of a rim brake road bike (my first road bike after 30 years of wanting one) after watching this video.
Oh they warp . They get to around 200-300 degrees c with heavy braking or with constant rubbing . Enough to make the steel rotor malleable. Add that to a caliper miss aligned or a sticky piston (very common) you end up with lovely wavy discs that do not heat up symmetrically only making the issue worse . Then if not changed uneven pad wear and possible caliper damage .
Not so much of an issue with mtbs as they use wider clearance between pad and rotor
@@edmundscycles1mtb rotors are also bigger so they have way more thermal mass and surface area.
is carbon wheels durable on rim brake？
The answer is C: cable actuated disc brakes. There are some great options out there now.
Recently built one for cheap. They are awesome! I am convinced that it's the best of both worlds. Easy maintenance/installation and cheaper. The braking power is very good.
@@bonbonflippers4298 which did you use? I’m considering Growtac Equal’s
@@thedownunderverse Juin tech F1. Been riding it in the rain all season. Very strong. Easy setup and been hassle free
Just the feeling is not even close to hydraulic or rim brake feeling. The point of disc brake is hydraulic and the feel.
All very right! And you are beholden to the tolerance of your frame. My SL6 Disc front mounts are skewed on the Z axis. Not something you can fix and means that pad expansion "window" is narrower and they always tick... Riding 28C's I would happily go back.
Did you mean a slanted flat-mount interface? If so, this can be fixed with a disc brake mount facing tool. I've done this a few times.
@@sbccbc7471 Thanks for the reply! This is true, but the holes are wonky, so even if I flatten the surface in relation to the thru axle, I'll then be bending things to sit flat which is not good!
@@jpragmatic7759 So it's the inserts for the M5 bolts themselves that are crooked, which in turn skews the bolts?
I don't ride in the rain, I'm not a 50kg woman, I'm not +100kg, my grip strength is ok, I'm cheap, discbrakes are ugly: easy choise!
What about aero differences, I have rim breaks (not hidden) on a TT bike and always wondered if having them exposed would be a penalty opposed to disc?
Disc vs rim brakes has a negligible effect on aerodynamic drag. I would expect to see a bigger difference with the cables; most performance bikes with disc brakes have integrated cables, but a bike with rim brakes is likely to still have exposed cables.
If they are selling bikes for $15'000 maybe they have to put disks on them, should be able to buy a good motorcycle for less. As for me I am not attracted to complicated bicycles, a bike should be good but simple, it should be easy to maintain.
Nice and thorough, and I'm in agreement. The only thing he left out was discussing mechanical (wired) disc brake calipers as opposed to hydraulic.