The Real Tragedy of Stilgar | Dune Explained
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- Опубліковано 25 кві 2024
- In depth analysis of Stilgar from Dune. Whenever I saw Stilgar in Part Two, I couldn’t help but recall a quote from the first book. While his fanaticism made some people laugh, for me, those scenes were a reminder of a deeper tragedy. Javier Bardem’s amazing performance brings out a more humorous side of Stilgar, making him a source of some comic relief.
But while his zealotry may seem amusing on the surface, a deeper look reveals one of the saddest aspects of the entire story.
The story of a desperate man blinded by both hope and faith.
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Sorry for the reuploads guys. UA-cam blocked it for "reused content". I fixed it, I hope you enjoy!
Dune is about Islam vs whites , it has nothing to do with “ religion manipulation “ as many claim, Paul made his promise and took them to paradise and won against the imperialist whites , this is literally our world now and what is happening right now , it is Islam bs whites
What is the soundtrack you've used? I've searched for it over and over.
Jon Summer - Desert Winds
@@ValaritasYT Thanks!!!!!
It really can't be understated how insidious the false promise of a messiah is to someone who has experienced great suffering. There is nothing more human than the desire for the hardship you have endured to have meaning
I really like how you worded this, friend :)
I wonder if at the most basic level hardship and suffering serve as the ultimate catalyst for the individual to reflect, grow, then live a life that is better in communion with themselves, the people, and the natural world around them. This is better said than done as most who suffer can perish rather than experience/grow, and a better world that is available to them can still be a proto-dystopian nightmare.
It’s a conundrum for sure. I suppose the only spiritual/secular “truth,” in this is that the human spirit/consciousness should be the primary priority for society (assuming basic amenities are met).
I really can’t think of a counter argument against this. Curious if anyone has any thoughts on this topic :)
Well said!
The problem with this is not the hardship you endure, it's that you want others to endure it as well. That's the basis of fanatism, to include others into our misery, to share it, to be able to say that I have suffered but so has others and that makes it meaningful.
This kind of human nature is pervasive throughout, even right now. Think back on the games or events that you have experienced when you were younger and when you see young people now going through it, you can't help but say, "Now they know".
I grew up in a cult. The betrayal is brutal.
It's
not
false messiah
To be fair, psychic humans who can see the future, past genetic memories AND survive a known poison only Reverend Mother can survive isn't something widely known and studied until later in the Dune series.
They GMO'd a human being, and the people of the desert who had never even known such a thing, called him "God".
@@L33TNINJ4Grrl He is pretty close to god tho, the only reason Paul isn't god is because of his weak will, he denies the golden path and so his son will take that path in his stead.
@nguyentandung42 Paul refused the Golden Path because of his human experiences. Those years of his life before his awakening with the water of life defined his personality. He refused to live in agony for thousands of years, sacrificing everything he could give and more to the continued survival of humanity only to be remembered as a monster and a tyrant by all of history. His son, being preborn like Alia, never got to experience a human childhood. His personality is taken from the memory of thousands of lifetimes, including the memories of Paul himself. He was willing to do what Paul could not, and even he came close at points to giving up.
When Paul showed up reciting everyone's internet browser history to them, it completely overwhelmed them because he had no knowledge that no mortal could or should ever have. That scene is so powerful. If someone in real life could do the same thing and just "know" things, it would make absolutely anyone start to believe.
😂😂😂
The Fremen forgot the warning given to anyone before drinking the water of life: "If you drink you WILL DIE. If you drink you may see." Paul or Muad'dib died after drinking the water of life. The man they knew prior was dead.
Depends how you view death, he changed.
@@BOBBOBBOBBOBBOBBOB69 I find the reverend Mother version of Jessica to be colder and more calculating than the pre-water of life Jessica. Again, her old self died after ingesting the water of life.
@@lizzybennett2590 It is still Paul and Jessica, but they are changed. They are not abominations like Alia.
@@BOBBOBBOBBOBBOBBOB69 "When you take a life, you take your own". there are so many allusions to the fact that Paul has completely changed. The old Paul is dead, I can't be convinced otherwise. "We're Harkonnens, so that's how we'll survive, by being Harkonnens now."
A very good point and metaphor.
Stilgar is my favorite. He started as faithful but just trying to fight for his people, seeing Paul as a good fighter, Jessica as a reverend mother replacement and using religion to get the others to accept them. Even after Paul rode the largest grandfather worm, he still viewed Paul as a banner his people could unify under, acknowledging that Paul himself didn't believe. Only when Paul survived the water of life and read the minds of the other leaders did he become a zealot, knowing Paul already knew he desired a paradise for his people but choosing to believe Paul could see it regardless. The way Javier Bardem plays him was soo good.
But is it really wrong? Arrakis does turn into a paradise in the end. So he didn’t get duped. Paul doesn’t promise eternal life.
@@MrBanana2000 It's the Bene Gesserit that are in the wrong for making up the prophecy in the first place. They definitely couldn't see the future, only wanted to use it to enslave the Fremen to their cause. It was Paul's choice to help the Fremen, not the Bene Gesserit or their prophecy, because he cares about them.
For me, Stilgar always been looking for the real Messiah, and he is the subtle but actual reason why Paul became Lisan al Gaib.
wouldn't say he's the real messiah but if anything his blind belief legitimized paul's ascension to lisan al gaib
@@_Fulgur_ nobody said it
It is interesting in the later books to see how he struggles with the changes happening around him. He is still of the old desert but the old desert is going away.
Paul isn't the Lisan al Gaib. There is no Lisan al Gaib, all Paul did was manipulate and use the Freman to his own ends
Subtle? lol
In God Emperor the Museum Fremen are all that are left of the once proud and tough people. Stilgar's tragedy is a small part of the tragedy of his entire people. However, quite early in reading Dune you get a sense of deep time and all peoples being erased and leaving nothing but echoes of the past. It's one of the reasons Dune resonated for me when I read it. Nothing is permanent, everything is lost to entropy.
That's soulcrushing
The series is so far into the future that humanity has forgotten Earth.
Javiers performance in the film is so magnetic. During the duel between Paul and Feyd, you can see it waver when Paul is stabbed.
When Paul is triumphant, the way he utters "lisain al-gaib", it's a man clutching back at his wavered faith.
It is really sad to witness his "downfall" from a wise leader and friend at the beginning, to a fanatic man full with blind faith in the end.
You really feel it in the book when Paul realizes that the people around him have gone from friends to followers and he is essentially alone.
Stilgar is so scary towards the end.
I'm the beginning he was a leader. He was chill, he was funny, he was wise.
In the end, he a completely brainwashed fanatic.
The scene where Chani comes and tries to talk to him and his face doesn't even change from a trance like state really broke my heart.
The genius of Bardem's portrayal of Stilgar is the same religious fanaticism that's played for laughs in the first half of the film becomes terrifying in the second half. Stilgar's faith doesn't really change. He never wavers in it and is always looking for a reason to believe because, as he says, "I don't care what you believe! I believe!"
For me, that's probably the scariest line of the film. A man who maintains his faith throughout the entire story and, in the end, has it completely rewarded. In another story, Stilgar's might have been seen by the audience as a happy ending yet in Dune we see it with nothing but dread and sadness. All Stilgar was as a Freman got devoured by the religion of the Lisan Al-Gaib.
And perhaps the most frightening thing of all with Stilgar is that, especially now, you can find him everywhere. People who have given into blind faith and devotion to a cause or creed or religion or ideology. People who stopped being people the moment the ideology took over them and possessed them like a demon. The scary thing with Stilgar is that people like him aren't just confined to the walls of a church anymore but can be found everywhere. At every political rally, at every protest, on every news program, and in every comments section. And the worst part is that, like Stilgar, they often don't even realize what's happened to them and what they've lost.
So true. People think blind faith can only be applied to religion, but blind faith, blind obedience, is the birth of terrible things, very terrible things. When you hold no doubt, no hesitation, well, you get the Nazis, the Communists, the terrorists and fundamentalists. Sometime you must act without hesitation or doubt, but if you don't question things, you'd don't truly believe, because you are too afraid to challenge tose ideas.
I think people tend to forget Dune's warning is not against religion itself, but against blind faith in false prophets.
Funny, because the Bible itself says the same thing, beware fo fade prophets.
I DONT CARE WHAT YOU BELIEVE, I BELIEVE!!!
This was very impactful to Paul and to me, as a viewer, too. He doesn't care if Paul was stating the truth because he sees the signs and Stilgar is desperately believing for the Lisan Al-Gaib to come and lead them to paradise.
I am so sorry for people think Stilgar is a comedic relief character. They clearly cannot see his tragedy. Thank you for making this video. Truly amazing!
yeah...I was once in a cult ( long time ago its a longer story) and I have to say that I saw soo many people like Stllgar , even the way he speaks , soo blinded by his fate
Both can be true
He still is, Stilgar is a tragic clown who is very eager to find his messiah, he losing his sanity
Fundamentalists are ridiculous. It's appropriate to laugh.
Humor was intended, but more as humanisation than being the end of it. It clearly had changed by the attack on Sietch Tabr, where he was no longer the funny prophecy man, instead being a fanatic willing to lay down his life.
one thing to learn from stilgar is that just because you believe in something even if you're willing to die for it doesn't make it necessarily true
Except it was true? Stilgar was instrumental in the establishment of the prophecy he believed in (water and green on Arrakis). The only problem is that the prophecy he manifested had ramifications he couldn't foresee (museum Fremen).
I think it would be more accurate to say that what people want is not always what is best for them. We can make manifest our prophecies in reality but they might destroy us. Belief in god and faith are actually terrible, potent powers in real life and can do terrible thins.
Uh@@capnbarky2682 ah, the persecution of people of faith because you think they are dangerous.
@@capnbarky2682 "It's not a prophecy, it's a story that you keep telling, but its not their story, its yours. They deserve to be lead by one of their own. What you people did to this world is heartbreaking."
@@Dularr My personal belief is that the power of faith is extremely powerful and so it's actually better for good people to try and make the best of it instead of acting like it doesn't matter, is made up, or they feel it's below them.
It was true though
I think the quote from the books (I could be wrong)..... Paul thinking to himself "It was then that I lost a friend, and gained a follower". The scene was done in sadness, as Paul didn't want Stilgar to "convert", but to remain a teacher and inspiration, and mostly: a friend.
One of the saddest parts of this fantastic book series.
I see quite a bit of Stilgar in Morpheus.
"What happened, happened and couldn't have happened any other way."
Why do you say that?
"We are still alive...."
so many stories are derivative of Herbert. He's a visionary.
Little known fact is that Stilgar was based on Morpheus.
@@onstr what? dune was written over 30 years before the matrix
@@onstr more like Dorpheus
Stilgar is a representation of the people who live through hardships. When you have so much hard time, you need to believe something, or you simply cant go further. I see a lot of real life people cannot cope their hard lifes, so their religions or beliefs become their last lifline. Dune series show me that even 1000 years later, religions will not dissappear. It's simply a cope mechanism but it is sometimes beneficial, sometimes not.
We didn’t come from nothing, the universe did not create itself. You need to humble yourself my arrogant athiest friend.
@@RealbdjbYes it was I who created it
@@holeefuk1087 We come from star dust so in a way you did, but there is something that triggered it. Where did the God particle come from? It's a paradox which leaves me to believe there is a higher power beyond our comprehension.
@@Realbdjbnot quite a humble response😂
@@isaacdelvalle2027 In what way?
One thing the TV miniseries (especially Children of Dune) caught best, even compared to Villeneuve, was the theme of tragedy.
The Fremen who lose their ways, the Atreides who got their revenge only to dissolve within a new order, Paul and Leto II who are so mighty yet powerless, the members of countless factions whose game for power becomes irrelevant in the new order, even the mighty worms who go from beings of veneration to studied specimen on the path to almost extinction.
yeah i was really surprised how quickly stilgar went from what felt like the leader to pauls number one fanboy. he basically stepped down and let paul have the reigns. morpheus was happy to find neo but it still felt like he was the boss of the group and equal to neo.
I agree, and I think a big part of that was the change done to the timeline in the film compared to the book. In the book Paul stays two years training and fighting with the fremen before going after the emperor. That sudden change felt less sudden (for me) while reading the book because of the time it takes
@@soph1.1 yes, that, and the fact that all the Fremen know Paul is a better fighter, which to them means Paul deserves to be the leader.
'You want to make God laugh, tell him your plans'
The tragedy of the fremen going to the holy war at the End of Dune two is the something I have been thinking every time I watched the movie and felt sting my heart. Very well narrated analysis.
I never understood why people call it a tragedy, they finally have a chance at fighting back, matter of fact, it's not just a chance, they have practically an omniscient being leading them to exactly what they desire, yes a lot of people will die, a lot of people will suffer, but it's not like the alternative was any better, they were suffering either way, they were getting killed and hunted regardless, but now, they won't just fight, they will win
The museum fremen mocked by Leto 2 were the nail in the coffin for Stilgar imho.
WTF? What did it say?
While Paul may not have been a 'true' messiah; did he do wrong by the Fremen? I mean, he DID lead them to freeing their own planet, and then conquering the universe. Most peoples throughout history would be quite happy with a leader that led them to take revenge on their enemies and then become great conquerors.
In the short term. In the long term they were exterminated.
@@rikk319 In the long term, everyone is exterminated.
@@JonnBenny In the long term everyone dies, all cultures and societies die out. Whether that's done with intention is the difference between dying out or exterminated.
@@rikk319 not exactly exterminated. It’s not like they were genocide. It’s more like the environment conditions that made to the Freeman Freeman seems to be. the Freeman were of people shaped by desert and worms. Worms can only survive in desert. It was his promise to them that he would transform the desert in the Paradise, but worms cannot survive in Paradise worms without desert Freeman still technically exist. They’re not Freeman at least not how Steele knew them. But then again that’s only what the Freeman technically wanted to live in a paradise full of water. They got their wish.
You should read the books. Pauls Jihad leads to the transformation of Arrakis into a lush green planet. This in turn leads to the almost complete destruction of Fremen culture and the great sandworms that they venerate.
I've been waiting on your next video and you did not disappoint. Thank You for another excellent edit
Every video, you are getting better. Keep up with your great work!!
"This is a story they use to enslave us!" Chani
She is not diminished. Chani remains Chani.
But in the book Chani did not abandon Paul, nor did she storm out. She was loyal and followed him like no one else. Her characters is a whole lot different, and personally, not in the good way
She is beyond diminished. Her character is so butchered compared to the books that she immediately becomes a forgettable and ineffectual foil to Stilgar whose presence in the movie is usurped by Jessica.
Frankly? I loved it. Nice to see that character be relegated to the bin. Paul really never needed her and her role in the story book was much larger than I felt was proper within the context of Paul's journey to becoming the Lisan Al-Gaib.
I love your analysis and in-depth explanation of Stilgar's tragedy in Faith. Thank you for this.
This was a really good video.
Thanks for making it.
My god this is such a great video. I come back to this video for inspiration. Thx ❤❤❤
Excellent video, the most thoughtful I've seen on a movie I really, really enjoyed. Thank you
Excellently articulated ideas 👍🏻
3:00 Force is what sticks out in my mind. There are many instances where we see the prophecy 'forced upon' by the actors in this story. Stilgar and Jessica. Jessica and Chani. Even Paul and Gurney.
It's really interesting.
Similar with Anakin and "the one who brings balance to the force", in Star Wars.
@@ElBandito It is like that with a lot of "Chosen One" plots--it's about destiny and free will. Neo in the Matrix, Anakin in Star Wars, Paul in Dune...prophecies are used in stories where the protagonist's agency is taken away from them...or they believe in a prophecy and willingly follow it, giving away their own agency.
The earnest portrayal from Javier is what elevates the performance from comedic to profound.
This was very well made. I have found it difficult to separate the book from these two incredible movies, particularly how character decisions taken by actors can have surprising knock-on effects to Herbert’s themes. Stilgar being a source of comedic effect was one of them, so I appreciated the “grounding” or reminder of what Herbert thought the character should be as the story progressed. Again, great video.
Great Video! Looking forward to more!
Paul struggles with this dilemma for the entirety of the book. He foresees that NO MATTER what he does, the seeds of prophecy will flourish and the jihad will happen. There is a point in the book where he sees that the only way to prevent the jihad would be the immediate death of the entire party right after they meet the fremen for the first time, leaving no survivors to tell tales and let the legend grow.
Paul didn't have it in him, though, to sacrifice himself and his mother to prevent that. Besides, it was too early in the book and Frank Herbert meant him to make the wrong choice. Paul, like Shakespeare's Hamlet, is too driven by the desire for revenge for his father, and he blows right past that opportunity to give up he and his mother's life so that the future doesn't turn in to that unavoidable massacre.
When he said SPOILER ALERT he absolutely meant it.
I found it strange when reading the book that the Fremen both worship the worm and work to its extinction.
I was thinking about that when I rewatched part one and 1st sat down for part 2. I think it’s one of those things where their physical needs are battling with their spiritual needs. The fremen ,after all, are human so they need water, food, and cooler weather so there would obviously be a sort of hope that the planet they live on would terraform into that sort of environment but the sand worms would die in that environment. I think their reverence for the sand worms were a natural progression from fear to worship. It’s just what comes after accepting the fact you live among 400 ft long warms that could devour your entire tribe is you walked a little too weird on the sand.
The plan for terraforming Dune always included a desert region for the worms to continue to use.
One thing that the movies never touch on is that Spice is highly addictive, and withdrawal from it is fatal.
@@poopdekjoneslol you can’t just give the worms a desert on the planet and expect things to be ok
@@poopdekjones I think the movies at least implied it. You're right. It doesn't specifically cover that aspect but considering how precious people treat it and the manner of which we are told it can induce psycho-active episodes, I think normal people can just assume that it can have those properties.
great video btw, as written!! 🎉
My favorite scene in dune 2 is Pauls proclamation.
Not because of Paul, but because of Javier Bardems Performance!
It is the first and most powerful portrayal of true religious fulfilment in cinema!
Not of a religious awakening, Stilgar was already a believer before, but true fulfilment and satisfaction of one man's believes!
Javier played it perfectly.
It made me as an agnostic see the power of faith... Why ordinary people can be pushed to the absolute Limit for their faith.
Why it can be both, terrifying and beautyful at the same time.
This was a great video!
Amazing video ! ❤
Right now fans are making meme about him but in 3rd movie he's really a tragic character
Thank you for the spoiler
@@ceptember. The video literally gives even more information about the 3rd book, did you even watch it?
@@ceptember. it's not our fault you never picked up books that have been around for 1969.
Great Video
The music is great too
I love how stilgar went from friend to follower, all of the qualities of stilgar and Paul has is great. You need someone to help combine people, the reason the fundamentalist didn’t like the rest was bc they weren’t interested in the policy, is crazy how Paul killed the best fighter with ease, I’m going to watch this movie again. I love it, I’ve watched this movie 3x, we need more movies like this tbh
Hope is an extremely powerful weapon.
The greatest mind-control anyone can wield.
Great video again
this is the video I wanted to see!!!
Started the vid to pass the time and couldn't put it down. Excellent
Great video very informative..
Excellent video essay on Stilgar’s religion fanaticism and how tragic his story is!
I very much enjoyed Mr. Bardem channeling Anthony Quinn in this part.
This phrase is overused, so forgive me, but I’ve never subbed to a channel so fast. This video was PHENOMENAL. Thank you, and looking forward to more, regardless of the topic.
Hey, thanks a lot!
Thank you for this video....the state of the world right now is scarily close to the beginning of the dune saga....
This is how strong civilizations facing hardship, like the Germans after WWI, can be so easily galvanized by an authoritarian figure that is seen as a savior.
Hope can be even more dangerous than hate and fear, because it's a far more powerful motivator. People will readily abandon all caution when they're blinded by the idea of a better future.
It's not a story Atreides would tell you. It's a Fremen legend.
Although there are elements of fanaticism in the actions of the fremen, Paul wasn’t just any ordinary human. Dude was way powerful than even the Bene geserit reverend mother at just 17, not to mention his fighting skills.
I am in pain. for I am burdened with the thoughts of many... only to consecrate what I have known for the last decade since I've met her. I am in pain to know that her coping mechanisms are unhealthy and unsound... but I know that her issues are those of the many and she is part of it all. Your video carries more meaning than most work I've tumbled upon in years. I sincerely wish you could see what I do for you've gained a lot of perspective through a book I should have read as a kid. I never enjoyed getting lost in other people's thoughts so I've done my best to succeed without doing what was asked of me. I've gained skills I should never have learned and used them to decipher her curse. Our society calls it "npd" and has no positive prognosis. Years and years of "talk therapy"... is not on the table for how fast we are destroying what should have been. I'm not a theist nor do I know why these prophecies seem to allow for me to take a place I never wished to take, but I think we are doomed if I don't. All I wanted was one true love and I have found it when I was a teen... then healed from life taking it away from me. Then I met Her... the most broken person I've ever met... bound to fail at the thing she seemed to have such ease to acquire. Too many people are shallow because there are no directions, karma or prophecies. Just too much information that was never rendered clear and accessible. I was never interested in anything except the culmination of all the things I have learned (which I thought was "love") and, in way, this is what I will teach... It pains me that I want nothing for myself. Thank you for sharing this video with us.
I noticed how he began to loose his hardened crust and stops leading his own people with his own abundant wisdom, and how he began to blindly worship and grasp at every sign of the proficy
I'm on board with this take 100%. But the full tragedy of the Fremen has only just BEGUN to be told in Dune Part II...!
I'm so happy I'm not the only one from caught on to this.
It's okay to put a little faith into something.
But like anything else, too much of even the best things in life can be bad for you.
Great video
Extremely well written
PLEASE MORE DUNE VIDEOS
What I’ve learned about Dune is that everyone is a pawn to the legend of the all powerful emperor to be who will save humanity. Paul’s a pawn, Leto II is a pawn, everyone.
Javier Bardem (Stilgar) continues to provide a stellar performance, skillfully balancing epic, grounded characteristics with subtle yet brilliant comedic relief.
‘’I am not the Madhi.’’
‘’Only the Madhi will be as humble to deny he is Madhi.’’
‘’As is written!!’’ XD
(Touche Villeneuve..Touche)
I think a lot of fans forget he basically threatened Jessica to make his beliefs become true
Javier Bardem was amazing. I am really excited for the 3rd movie and wonder how they will end it.
Javier Bardem, what an incredible actor. Perfect choice for Stilgar.
...Well done !.... very , very good ....
Well done 👍🏻 Great Job! … And curse-be-thy-name the enigmatic YTalgrthm
There's no tragedy here.
In the end, the atreides line delivered the green paradise all fremen dreamed of having.
Stilgar placed his trust well
@leongibson5429 His dream was for his people to live there. Not for the people to be forgotten. It is a great tragedy. The loss of a people and culture.
They do live there in the future, all Fremen know that that they have to fight just to survive. Paradise is something they're all willing to die for.
Amen, you’ll never convince these secularist though. They’d rather pick apart a fictional character for having the purpose they lack. They are the true tragedy. They long for a purpose they will never have and a paradise they cannot even imagine.
he didnt 'place his trust' in Paul, he bought into a foreign propaganda campaign because he lived a life so miserable that there was nothing else he could look forward to.
Sure, the the fremen got their paradise but at the cost of a war that killed billions of people who were not much different from them. In the end the fremen culture was destroyed and the fremen people became purposeless husks who didn't know what to do with the paradise they fought and died for.
Paul breaks wind...
Stilgar: Lisan al Gaib!
amazing vid :D)
I've seen an interesting mention that the more Stilgar falls into faith, the more blood and dirt he has on his appearance.
Good analysis. Stilgar was saved by Pardot Kynes after his neck was slashed by a Harkonnen when he was a child.
I like that Leto 2 in 6:35 looks totally unhappy.
I think one thing that people maybe miss, at least to me, is that the Fremen culture and way of life is all to keep the hope alive and to prepare for the paradise to come. In this way the paradise fulfils the teachings and preparations making them, not irrelevant, but removing them as focuses of life. I think it’s ok to sacrifice the things that were intended to bring you to paradise when the paradise comes about. The path Stilgar takes, whether the prophecies are true or not, lead to the fulfilment of the hope on which the Fremen base their lives. He is surely right, therefore, to throw everything down in pursuit of the hope of a saviour and the promise of paradise especially when he is faced with undeniable signs and wonders beyond the physical realm?
I think this video makes a good and powerful narrative. But I’m also not sure it’s the narrative necessarily meant to be drawn out. Or at least not completely.
Dune by no means makes Paul a false messiah. It makes it vague. It is very possible Paul was foreseen in some details. And some of the things that happened to Paul were by complete “chance”. Like loving Chani without knowing her name, or happening to call the biggest worm they have ever seen. Those things were likely properly foreseen. So in a way, he doesn’t need to be a forced prophecy, but perhaps a truly foreseen one. I think an argument for self fulfilled prophecy is possible, but only to an extent. The worm wasn’t in on it.
I think Dune warns of the dangers of mankind making their own prophecies of a messiah for sure though. And that’s seen in how it hurts the bene gesserit too. They wanted it one way and it didn’t happen. But I think there are some things about dune that are inherently spiritual seeming, yet explained by science. This doesn’t mean they couldn’t still be spiritual. Prescience itself is pretty incredible.
I think it’s meant to be vague and make several points. To me it’s more of a “both and” thing. I don’t believe Frank Herbert meant to criticize belief, nor messianic belief. But pointed out the dangers and downfalls, but also the strengths of beliefs. And how belief can be manipulated by man. This doesn’t mean belief is evil, it means mankind will take power from anything they can.
4:00 Stilgar's experience has less to with a self-fulfilling prophecy, and more to do with what the work of hundreds of years of belief can do, on the course of shaping reality.
What are the odds that a boy with the power to become the Kwisatz Haderach would end up on Arrakis? That his mother, a Bene Gesserit, would defy her sacred order to bring forth a son and his father's leadership and status among the Great Houses would threaten the emperor? What are the odds that, that boy -Paul-would end up on Dune where the people have been oppressed and religiously manipulated for centuries and because of annihilation of his House, would be set on a path against the Imperium that he was once a part of?
Paul was vulnerable after everything he lost, his identity subsumed by Fremen culture and engulfed by it on all sides. There was the pressure of their belief pushing him, his mother leading him down the path to become the Kwisatz Haderach and of course his own unconscious desire for revenge. Even through the power of his prescience, there seemed to be pressure closing in on Paul from his own ancestors.
This is a very dramatic display of the intersubjective nature of reality and how we are sometimes held in place by the things other people believe about us.* Paul (perhaps with the exception of Chani from the movies) was surrounded by people who did not care much for his own personal choices, his autonomy or his individuality. Stilgar said it himself, "It does not matter what you believe, I believe!" If Stilgar's belief was a thread that held Paul in place, imagine then, that Paul was covered in threads by all the people who believed.
Paul may have used the Fremen to get his revenge but arguably, they also used him to fulfill the role of their Messiah. They did not care about Paul so much as they cared about the Lisan Al Gaib, so in essence, the propaganda of the Bene Gesserits prophecies became more than propaganda. It became a pathway that Paul started and his son Leto, finished.
I don't think there was anything "Golden" about it. It was just the most natural, the most probable course of reality and of the future based on the powers at play: the perception, thought, belief of the vast majority and the psychic nature of Paul himself.
Frank Herbert wrote: "The mystery of life isn't a problem to solve, but a reality to experience." The Bene Gesserit, it seems, didn't understand this. They tried to bio-engineer a solution for what they perceived as the problem of life and for Paul, unfortunately, it meant the Shadow aspect if his psyche was fed and validated by millions of Fremen.
If the course of *revolution* has taught me anything its that, it *never happens peacefully.* People with power hardly if ever give up that power even when it is good and right to do so. And usually, when power flows in only one direction for hundreds of years, it is because it was was frozen in policy. It has become a system. Say, for example, that a Harkonnen grew a conscience. Could they stop fighting the Fremen? Stop harvesting Spice from Arrakis when the whole Imperium relies on it for interstellar travel? But the point is, perhaps the Fremen too had an unconscious desire for revenge. I highly doubt that the Harkonnens were known for their _mercy._
"“Three hundred years of humiliation, abuse and deprivation cannot be expected to find voice in a whisper.” - Martin Luther King Jr.
And perhaps ironically:
"The oppressed are allowed once every few years to decide which particular representatives of the oppressing class are to represent and repress them." - Karl Marx
The problem with the Fremen also was that they seemed to whole-heartedly believe in the prophecy, in the transformation of their desert world into a "Green Paradise". Did they not stop _once_ to question what a green paradise would mean for them as a people in terms of the culture and livelihood? If I were Fremen, I wouldn't care about a promised Savior and a green paradise so much as I would care to liberate my planet from the Imperium's control and then hopefully, forming our own governing body to control spice production and distribution. Since Arrakis is the only planet with the resource that facilitates interstellar travel, Arrakis would've become if not the most powerful, then certainly the wealthiest planet in the whole Imperium. I would then fund the research to try to terraform only parts of the world- its human territories. In that world, humans and the Shai-Halud might've coexisted.
5:16 I don't think Paul traps them in the shadow of Muad'dib myth. I would argue they were already trapped and by being trapped, *_they_* trapped _him._ Whether or not they meant to, they put the power of governance in his hands. Did they ever stop to consider the price they would have to pay for this "Green Paradise" or the fact terraforming a dessert planet would take years and years to do? If they had, they would understand that even if they fought for that future, they themselves may never live to see it. Instead, it seems as if all of their desires were left vague, grounded in myth and wrapped in the shroud of religious fervor. And of course, one can argue that it is not their fault, that it is the Bene Gesserit's fault but I think to do that also reduces their entire population from thinking human beings to mere receptacles of blind faith. What would have happened if they had their perspective was grounded in realism instead of religion? If it was, they probably would have taken responsibility for their freedom from the Imperium upon themselves instead of waiting for a promised messiah to do it _for_ them. Essentially, the Bene Gesserit's machinations would have been dismantled to some degree.
I would also like to add that Paul was groomed from a young age to become a Duke. He knew that one day he would have power over others and that they would be subject to his rule. In the movie in particular, it was as if he moved from being expected to become the Duke of Caladan to Duke of Arrakis to Messiah of the Fremen to Emperor of the Known Universe-all roles which gave him significant power over others. I'm not sure Paul ever let go of the notion that he was meant, in some capacity, *_to rule._* He was born and bred for it. He might've felt a sense of loss when his father died and his House was exterminated but it seems as if there was yet another group of people around the corner, just _waiting_ to put the power back in his hands. Letting go of the person you grew up thinking you were made and meant to be does not happen overnight. It usually takes years of diligent work to disassemble that level of conditioning. Something that a person has to have the time and opportunity and dedication to do. (And if they are very, very *_lucky_* the right systems of social support) It is also not something that happens when you are too busy surviving. From a movie standpoint, it doesn't seem that Paul ever got that chance. If he had truly began to question and confront these things, and his desire for revenge was dragged out from the darkness of his Unconscious and Individuated, it is very possible he might've made a different choice. He would have drawn boundary between Himself and everything the Fremen believed and it would've given him the space he needed to reject the Jihad.
6:34 Of course told from Stilgar's perspective, the story is indeed a tragedy. He realizes, in the end, that he actively participated n the near-extinction of his people. But all is not lost. If Stilgar was fair to himself, he can rest in the knowledge of all the things he did not know or fully understand and, perhaps, forgive himself for it. Also, in time, the people of Arrakis would find massive skeletal remains of the Sandworms, the way we find dinosaurs and archeologists will study Fremen culture the same way we study the cultures of the Ancient Greeks, the Romans and the Egyptians. To the observant mind, history is never fully lost. Instead, it carries the weight of many lessons that we might learn if we are patient enough and disciplined enough to hear its Voice across time.
*Intersubjectivity and Self-Perception - especially powerful with the people who we are the closest to, and who matter to us the most.
It's always weir for me seeing a lot of people laugh and see stilgar as comic relief.
The first time I see stilgar in dune part 2 it's feels unnerving or creepy, probably because I know a lot of people with similar compassion like stilgar.
A great rundown, and a great allegory from Frank Herbert
Well, Frank Herbert took the concept of Mahdi from Islam including the prophecy that the Mahdi wouldn't proclaim himself to be one. In Islamic eschatology, the Mahdi is a central figure. One of the prophecies is that the Mahdi himself doesn't believe that he is the Mahdi, but it is the people who recognize him as such (to the point that people accuse of being the Mahdi while he denies it). So from this perspective, Stilgar didn't "twist words" just to confirm his beliefs. He is still just following the prophecy to the text.
That ending bit from Jamis sounds a bit like Taoism to me
stilgar has a confirmation bias. Read the book - art of thinking clearly
I also see a lot of people online using Life of Brian jokes regarding Stilgar and they don't even seem to realize just how on the mark that is. Both Life of Brian and Dune are all about religious fanatacism, and how the people engaging in it are not necessarily crazy or delusional but just regular people who desperately want something worthwhile to believe in and live for, and both extensively explore the topic in their own ways. It's just that one does it through comedy and the other through a space opera.
I think Stilgar got too comical in the second part but it's sad in Children of Dune. His planet is getting greener, the worms are vanishing, and Paul is "dead." What happens to the Fremen when they stop being traditional?
You can see that theres a bit of stilgar in all of use.
Can I get a LISAN AL GAIB
It's Ga-nee-ma, Not Gani-mah that's my only criticism :) nice video.
But what Jamis says, at the end of this video, is true of our world ;-)
This is exactly what I’ve written in my review!
Its actually worse during the 4th book. The Fremen sort of exist as Museum Fremen, but merely as shadows, mocked by the public, and desperately trying to find purpose, but to no avail.
Wait? Who are they mocked by? I read the whole Dune series up to chapter house so I don't understand what you are saying
@@nebsam715 He's full of shit. Under Alia who went insane, the Fremen become more deathcultish and violently oppose any worship that is not Muad'dib. The Feyadkin under Stilgar usurp Alia and he personally kills the conspirators against Paul's life. Under Paul's son Leto II, the Fedaykin are formally disbanded in favor of his "Fishspeakers" who are exclusively women who fanatically worship Leto II as God Emperor, he disbanded the Fremen warriors because he can see the Golden Path, and the Fedaykin are too connected to Muad'dib and Paul's story, he needed new fanatics to orchestrate his social experimentation, elsewise he foresaw a massive civil war between Muad'dib worshippers and Leto II worshippers that would result in total annihilation for the human race.
The Fremen still remained on Arrakis, now a mostly green utopia called "Rakis" for 3500 years until it is tragically destroyed by the Honored Matres seeking to destroy all spice. They remain legendary nearly mythological figures throughout all of Leto II reign and beyond. At no point are they "mocked" doing so would be a surely instant death-sentence under Leto's reign considering the vast majority of his military was of Fremen stock just like his father Paul, and the Fremen as a single culture no longer exist thousands of years after that because they co-mingled with literally trillions of other people.
it wasnt any sand worm it was the grandfather of sandworms the biggest one
Very much enjoyed your analysis.
Although we see Stilgar as a big figure, he only ever is leader of ONE sietch...
Seeing as we're getting a 3rd movie, a lot of this will be answered for non book readers. To be fair it's been quite awhile myself since I read the books.
This reminds me of Morpheus from The Matrix
How could Stilgar not have known that should the prophecy came true, Shai-Hulud and the Fremen would be gone? Shai-Hulud dies with water, whereas Fremen is all about the desert. Bringing green to Arrakis would mean the end of both, but what is there to mourn and grieve for when they have the paradise as promise?
As far as i know shai hulud would still survive. They planned to leave large parts of the planets as a desert
This reminds me of Smedley Butler weirdly