As a former protestant believer, I had to learn the truth the hard way. Knowing all the evidence points to Catholicism. Bc the evidence is overwhelming for Catholicism. But if people can't see Catholicism. Then u will see Orthodox Christianity. But u can not be intellectually honest with yourself, then say the overwhelming evidence points to protestantism thats for sure.
Thank you Gary for all your work and making this video and sharing your knowledge. Please do a part 2. Learnt a lot and there is a lot more to learn. God bless you and your loved ones.
Thank you Mr. Michuta. Your work and scholarship on the Deuterocanon is greatly appreciated. And thank you very much for responding to Mr. Winger’s “Study” of Book of Wisdom.
As an Anglican (Traditional Anglo-Catholic), I can say we have large sections read in our daily lectionary from Wisdom, Tobit, Maccabees, Sirach....Wisdom is my favorite deuterocanonical book.
At about the 40 minute mark, it is addressing that certain books weren't accepted because they were written in Greek and not Hebrew. I see Protestants using this argument all the time against the Deuterocanon. This is also usually paired with the "400 years of silence" argument that there were no scriptures written from Malachi to Matthew. The problem is that this was a Rabbinical Jewish argument to say why the NT wasn't scripture, they claimed that if it was really divinely inspired scripture that it would be written in Hebrew and since it is written in Greek, the NT can't be scripture. Both of those arguments were Post-Christian arguments from Rabbinical Jews to discredit the Christian scriptures. It is now the argument that Protestants use to claim that the Deuterocanon isn't scripture. I find it odd that Christians base their view of Christianity on a view of modern Judaism that didn't exist during the time of Christ and was a direct response to the rise and spread of Christianity and the loss of the temple.
All of the documents of the Second Temple Jewish community, beyond just the Apocrypha, can inform us about that diverse community and the ideas circulating at the time. Jesus and the disciples interacted with those ideas, accepting some as relevant and combatting others.
Yes part two please, do you have teaching on St Gregory the wonder worker on his declaration of faith and the Trinity, I done hear much Catholic UA-camr talking about him and how he receive the Trinity creed from St John the evangelist and the blessed Mother herself, is this ture.
Mike Winger loves to hear himself speak. He has a pleasant speaking voice, which only fuels the fire of self. Steely Dan recorded an album which defines Winger's methodology: "Pretzel Logic"
@@edalbanese6310 LOL, you only prove how weak when you can't help throwing out red herrings and straw men instead of engaging the topic at hand and the evidence for and against. Are you saying only Catholic kingdoms/governments historically executed heretics? We will all pay for our sins, in this life or the next. But if you're referring to indulgences, you only reveal your ignorance if you think they ever had anything to do with the forgiveness of sins.
@edalbanese6310 Yahweh is no pagan deity, He doesn't need penal substitution as his Justice is perfect, righteous and Just. All thanks and praise be to God.
If the letter to the Hebrews clearly uses LXX FORMS of OT quotes that surely undermines the suggestion that this epistle was originally written in Hebrew and later translated into Greek! It remains a mystery to ask if it’s a letter to the Hebrews why is it in Greek? Besides “Hebrews” where? In pre 70 Jerusalem?
I think it's more likely that Hebrews was a homily Paul delivered and it was later written down In greek. Which is why people say it's not Paul's writing style.
Greek was the language of the Empire and Jews/Hebrews spoke and read Greek and Aramaic; Hebrews was not generally spoken buy the common person but by the Scribes priestly class..
@@Basaljet oh and while I'm not sure where it was written or delivered it was definitely written before 70ad. Because it is delivered to Hebrews who were tempted to go back to the old covenant. And while the author is trying to convince them that christ has come and the old covenant has been updated he didn't mention the temple not being there. Which would be very obvious for his point had the temple been destroyed already. This is how you can tell all the NT minus maybe John's works were written before 70ad.
@@the1allahprays2 the point is that that being the case where was this “homily” delivered if not in Jerusalem the ot quotes would have automatically deferred to Hebrew. Perhaps they were diaspora Jews at Alexandria or more likely Rome “those who are in Italy Greer you”. But then why if it is a generic letter is it not addressed to “Jews” rather than Hebrews and why would the ritualistic temple cult be such a dominating theme?
@@Basaljet The Syriac Peshitta has the Aramaic versions of Gospel of Matthew & Hebrews. There are variants because of this, but largely the disciples of Christ favored the Septuagint over the Hebrew text. It raises questions when between 100 - 400 AD there were numerous accusations of Rabbi's altering their written text.
@tonyl3762 wait show me fr where it says that I just looked at all the pages and it seems to say it's not true at all. The article is just titled, An Aramaic Fragment of the Wisdom of Solomon.
When I was an atheist, so many atheists content creators would dig into Winger’s many logical and theological issues. Now I see the Catholics doing it too😂! Mike’s issue is that he knows enough to dig himself a hole and sound convincing to a lay audience, but lacks the actual expertise to back up the truck load of definitive and authoritative-sounding statements he constantly makes. Yet…he keeps doing it despite constant corrections from charitable critics.
The more attention protestants give to the Deuterocanon, the more they are going to try yo find things wrong with it. Sifting through the minutia of their arguments can be helpful. For example, it never occurred to me to think the passages Mike cited had anything to do with the preexisting of the soul. It's just not something I considered. Did Origin quite from this passage in his teachings?
I can tell from Mike's body language that he looks a bit uncomfortable and on the defensive when answering the question about Wisdom and Hebrews e.g.17:30 on, keeps touching his mouth, arms crossed etc.
Not sure why so many found this a good rebuttal. It was full of ridicule, assigning nefarious motives, sarcasm and trying to score points on parts of an explanation while ignoring the argument as a whole. He questions Mike's motives on mentioning the Catholic bible and lists of books. Of course this makes sense from a protestant perspective, nothing nefarious there. The protestant bible doesn't have those books, the Catholic bible does, the protestant canon doesn't include the apocrypha so he would not call the Catholic OT canon. While Mike clearly and succinctly stated that with no snarkyness, this guy takes offense. His whole questioning of quotes, while knowing full well that Mike was going through the various types of quotes. Yes, you need context in order to determine the meaning and use of a quote, Mike is fully aware but this guy shoots down each example of different contexts. Then he says he follows Jesus only but if he did he would know that Jesus never includes the apocrypha. Jesus referenced the Law of Moses, the Books of the Prophets, and in the Psalms as the scriptures. (Luke 24:44-46 CEV). Josephus says that the temple held the 22 books of the OT, in other words, no apocrypha included. Instead of referencing this, he obfuscates and says it was rabbinical.
Putting so much emphasis on Solomons authorship is such a naturalistic way of thinking. That denies that Solomon could have greek influence or oral tradition. The only author that really matters is the Holy Ghost
The book of the Wisdom of Solomon contains perhaps the most clear, concise and virulent denunciation of idolatry in all of scripture. Knowing this, how is it that Catholics are constantly accused of idolatry? Answer: 1. They are NOT idols. 2. There is no Wisdom in Protestant bibles. 3. Far more concerning is the tribal attitude of Protestantism and the incessant, even frantic need to justify division in the Body of Christ.
FWIW, Other Protestants have been taking Winger to task on other subjects too, like Penal Substitution and Women in Ministry. He is just not a good researcher.
@ThatOneGuyWhatsHisName he is not. His grasp of the scholarship and history on the women ministry issue was horrible, even if his conclusions are correct.
Horrible? How is Mike’s grasp of scholarship and history horrible. To me horrible would mean shockingly bad, awful, terrible, etc.. I have read plenty of scholarly books and articles on this subject and Mike’s explanation/summation is at least adequate.
@@coloradodutch7480 First, I used to be a HUGE Mike Winger fan. Then I started to do my own research on certain topics (like this one). Winger finds people who support what he already believes to show that he is right. He ignores evidence that contradicts his beliefs, most of what he does is confirmation bias. Sometimes, he does good stuff when he doesn't already have a predetermined meaningful belief (like the alcohol video) on a topic.
I had massive issues with his handling of baptism. The assumptions he had to make in order to justify the exclusion of infants was excessive, all while accusing the other side of making assumptions.
That’s a Calvinist view actually. The Catholic view is that ALL are without excuse as God has revealed Himself to ALL of us and “faith in God’s existence is the most fundamental Catholic belief, and in the First Vatican Council the Church has taught that, while by the natural light of human reason God can be known in his works as origin and end of all created things, God has also chosen to reveal himself and his will supernaturally in the ways indicated in the Letter to the Hebrews 1:1-2.”
@@joevasanu7459 All can come to know there is a God by Natural reason; but not the True Church or the True Faith. That has to be revealed by God (which was my point) as Jesus Himself said 'no comes to me unless the Father draw them'.
You can tell by the way Mike speaks, his anxiety is rooted in his rebellion towards the truth. How doubt enters his heart, he will look for anything online to validate his doubt. His anxiety speaks of a lack of peace in his soul, a rebellion towards truth, at least that's what I see.
Great video . Jesus and the Apostles never practiced Judaism , ever . They practiced ( followed) the Law and the Prophets . Judaism is a Babylonian corruption of the Law and the Prophets . If we are spitting hairs we might as well split them right .? 😉 The word Judaism is not used in the Bible , Old or New Testament . It is a construct to confuse Christians into thinking that Jesus and the Apostles followed Judaism , which the did NOT !
The Apocrypha collection of books is historical in nature. None of these books passed Drash or Hermeneutics. Meaning there are errors and contradictions to the Bible Canon. So, they can't be used for interpretation of scriptures or Doctrine. But there are cross references and they can be used in a Sermon or Liturgy. Study bibles still contain them. And you can get them separately. The Strong Concordance still has connections to them.
This is so dumb. You lost me at "why is he calling it the apocrypha what the heck is that?" Feining outrage for the word he used that you shouldnt be complaining about so heavy. Catholicism is heterodox idol worship, and i honestly can't understand how you all fall for it
"Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." -St. Ignatius of Antioch, 35 - 107 AD (A Disciple Of The Apostle John)
@ThatOneGuyWhatsHisName, Nothing dumb at all - Catholicism is the only true New Covenant worship of the Triune God - nothing whatsoever to do with idol worship
As a former protestant believer, I had to learn the truth the hard way. Knowing all the evidence points to Catholicism. Bc the evidence is overwhelming for Catholicism.
But if people can't see Catholicism. Then u will see Orthodox Christianity.
But u can not be intellectually honest with yourself, then say the overwhelming evidence points to protestantism thats for sure.
Thank you Gary for all your work and making this video and sharing your knowledge. Please do a part 2. Learnt a lot and there is a lot more to learn. God bless you and your loved ones.
It's funny how protestants stumble upon these kinds of things and think, "Oh, I discovered something," when the Church has known this for years.
You are smart!
Millennia^, the church has known this for Millennia
Definitely do a part 2!
Reading through Case for the Deuterocanon. I love and appreciate your work
Thank God, and secondly; thank you Mr. Michuta.
Thank you Mr. Michuta. Your work and scholarship on the Deuterocanon is greatly appreciated.
And thank you very much for responding to Mr. Winger’s “Study” of Book of Wisdom.
Can't wait God bless you!
Thanks for your work.
The issue of allowing post Christian Jews to define the OT scriptures was one of the realizations that had me challenging my view of the Canon.
Amazing job Gary! Sam Shamoun always said that Mike Winger was a joke. You just proved it!
As an Anglican (Traditional Anglo-Catholic), I can say we have large sections read in our daily lectionary from Wisdom, Tobit, Maccabees, Sirach....Wisdom is my favorite deuterocanonical book.
The 1962 BCP still preserves the deuterocanonical readings in the Daily Lectionary.
A part 2 would be great!
Thank you for pointing out (reminding us?) the importance of the book of Wisdom!
Thanks for your scholarship! 😊
Thank you so much for sharing your God given knowledge URBESTEST
!!!
Fascinating study. Thanks Gary.
Please do a part 2!
At about the 40 minute mark, it is addressing that certain books weren't accepted because they were written in Greek and not Hebrew. I see Protestants using this argument all the time against the Deuterocanon. This is also usually paired with the "400 years of silence" argument that there were no scriptures written from Malachi to Matthew.
The problem is that this was a Rabbinical Jewish argument to say why the NT wasn't scripture, they claimed that if it was really divinely inspired scripture that it would be written in Hebrew and since it is written in Greek, the NT can't be scripture. Both of those arguments were Post-Christian arguments from Rabbinical Jews to discredit the Christian scriptures. It is now the argument that Protestants use to claim that the Deuterocanon isn't scripture.
I find it odd that Christians base their view of Christianity on a view of modern Judaism that didn't exist during the time of Christ and was a direct response to the rise and spread of Christianity and the loss of the temple.
All of the documents of the Second Temple Jewish community, beyond just the Apocrypha, can inform us about that diverse community and the ideas circulating at the time. Jesus and the disciples interacted with those ideas, accepting some as relevant and combatting others.
Another really good video!
Great video!
Very well done!
Yes part two please, do you have teaching on St Gregory the wonder worker on his declaration of faith and the Trinity, I done hear much Catholic UA-camr talking about him and how he receive the Trinity creed from St John the evangelist and the blessed Mother herself, is this ture.
I have always seen Wisdom as the Blessed Virgin.
Is the slideshow you were working from available anywhere online?
I would like a part 2, if it isn’t too inconvenient.
Part 2!
Mike Winger loves to hear himself speak. He has a pleasant speaking voice, which only fuels the fire of self. Steely Dan recorded an album which defines Winger's methodology: "Pretzel Logic"
Winger is repeating the same old weak inconsistent canonical criteria for Protestants. Won't object to a part 2.
Right, nothing new under the sun
Weak? Will Catholic burn people again? Do I need to pay for my sins? I protest
@@edalbanese6310 LOL, you only prove how weak when you can't help throwing out red herrings and straw men instead of engaging the topic at hand and the evidence for and against.
Are you saying only Catholic kingdoms/governments historically executed heretics?
We will all pay for our sins, in this life or the next. But if you're referring to indulgences, you only reveal your ignorance if you think they ever had anything to do with the forgiveness of sins.
Lol what a great example of the shallowness that so many protestants have when thinking so many biblical matters through@@edalbanese6310
@edalbanese6310 Yahweh is no pagan deity, He doesn't need penal substitution as his Justice is perfect, righteous and Just.
All thanks and praise be to God.
If the letter to the Hebrews clearly uses LXX FORMS of OT quotes that surely undermines the suggestion that this epistle was originally written in Hebrew and later translated into Greek! It remains a mystery to ask if it’s a letter to the Hebrews why is it in Greek? Besides “Hebrews” where? In pre 70 Jerusalem?
I think it's more likely that Hebrews was a homily Paul delivered and it was later written down In greek. Which is why people say it's not Paul's writing style.
Greek was the language of the Empire and Jews/Hebrews spoke and read Greek and Aramaic; Hebrews was not generally spoken buy the common person but by the Scribes priestly class..
@@Basaljet oh and while I'm not sure where it was written or delivered it was definitely written before 70ad. Because it is delivered to Hebrews who were tempted to go back to the old covenant. And while the author is trying to convince them that christ has come and the old covenant has been updated he didn't mention the temple not being there. Which would be very obvious for his point had the temple been destroyed already. This is how you can tell all the NT minus maybe John's works were written before 70ad.
@@the1allahprays2 the point is that that being the case where was this “homily” delivered if not in Jerusalem the ot quotes would have automatically deferred to Hebrew. Perhaps they were diaspora Jews at Alexandria or more likely Rome “those who are in Italy Greer you”. But then why if it is a generic letter is it not addressed to “Jews” rather than Hebrews and why would the ritualistic temple cult be such a dominating theme?
@@Basaljet The Syriac Peshitta has the Aramaic versions of Gospel of Matthew & Hebrews. There are variants because of this, but largely the disciples of Christ favored the Septuagint over the Hebrew text. It raises questions when between 100 - 400 AD there were numerous accusations of Rabbi's altering their written text.
The Holy Spirit is God with us and Jesus in us. We don't have Jesus in us directly.
In the Eucharist we do
Thank God for this channel! Pray for those Mike Winger followers who believe everything they hear and read. They really do need to watch this channel!
I thought an Aramaic fragment was found of Wisdom of Solomon: Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 40, No. 1/2 (1921), pp. 57-69 (13 pages)
Seems you are correct
No there wasn't
@@ThatOneGuyWhatsHisName Then why do multiple results show up from an online search for it?
@@ThatOneGuyWhatsHisName Yes there were. I even cited the book and what page the scans of said fragments were included in.
@tonyl3762 wait show me fr where it says that I just looked at all the pages and it seems to say it's not true at all. The article is just titled, An Aramaic Fragment of the Wisdom of Solomon.
When I was an atheist, so many atheists content creators would dig into Winger’s many logical and theological issues. Now I see the Catholics doing it too😂! Mike’s issue is that he knows enough to dig himself a hole and sound convincing to a lay audience, but lacks the actual expertise to back up the truck load of definitive and authoritative-sounding statements he constantly makes. Yet…he keeps doing it despite constant corrections from charitable critics.
The more attention protestants give to the Deuterocanon, the more they are going to try yo find things wrong with it. Sifting through the minutia of their arguments can be helpful. For example, it never occurred to me to think the passages Mike cited had anything to do with the preexisting of the soul. It's just not something I considered. Did Origin quite from this passage in his teachings?
I can tell from Mike's body language that he looks a bit uncomfortable and on the defensive when answering the question about Wisdom and Hebrews e.g.17:30 on, keeps touching his mouth, arms crossed etc.
Not sure why so many found this a good rebuttal. It was full of ridicule, assigning nefarious motives, sarcasm and trying to score points on parts of an explanation while ignoring the argument as a whole. He questions Mike's motives on mentioning the Catholic bible and lists of books. Of course this makes sense from a protestant perspective, nothing nefarious there. The protestant bible doesn't have those books, the Catholic bible does, the protestant canon doesn't include the apocrypha so he would not call the Catholic OT canon. While Mike clearly and succinctly stated that with no snarkyness, this guy takes offense. His whole questioning of quotes, while knowing full well that Mike was going through the various types of quotes. Yes, you need context in order to determine the meaning and use of a quote, Mike is fully aware but this guy shoots down each example of different contexts. Then he says he follows Jesus only but if he did he would know that Jesus never includes the apocrypha. Jesus referenced the Law of Moses, the Books of the Prophets, and in the Psalms as the scriptures. (Luke 24:44-46 CEV). Josephus says that the temple held the 22 books of the OT, in other words, no apocrypha included. Instead of referencing this, he obfuscates and says it was rabbinical.
Putting so much emphasis on Solomons authorship is such a naturalistic way of thinking.
That denies that Solomon could have greek influence or oral tradition.
The only author that really matters is the Holy Ghost
The book of the Wisdom of Solomon contains perhaps the most clear, concise and virulent denunciation of idolatry in all of scripture. Knowing this, how is it that Catholics are constantly accused of idolatry? Answer: 1. They are NOT idols. 2. There is no Wisdom in Protestant bibles. 3. Far more concerning is the tribal attitude of Protestantism and the incessant, even frantic need to justify division in the Body of Christ.
FWIW, Other Protestants have been taking Winger to task on other subjects too, like Penal Substitution and Women in Ministry. He is just not a good researcher.
Not true at all he's a great researcher and women can minister they can't be a pastor or priest tho
@ThatOneGuyWhatsHisName he is not. His grasp of the scholarship and history on the women ministry issue was horrible, even if his conclusions are correct.
Horrible? How is Mike’s grasp of scholarship and history horrible. To me horrible would mean shockingly bad, awful, terrible, etc.. I have read plenty of scholarly books and articles on this subject and Mike’s explanation/summation is at least adequate.
@@coloradodutch7480 First, I used to be a HUGE Mike Winger fan. Then I started to do my own research on certain topics (like this one). Winger finds people who support what he already believes to show that he is right. He ignores evidence that contradicts his beliefs, most of what he does is confirmation bias. Sometimes, he does good stuff when he doesn't already have a predetermined meaningful belief (like the alcohol video) on a topic.
I had massive issues with his handling of baptism. The assumptions he had to make in order to justify the exclusion of infants was excessive, all while accusing the other side of making assumptions.
🤯
The Apocrypha was never Canon.
Again you show that no matter how smart a person may be; until God decides to reveal Himself to them; they will not be invited into His Church.
That’s a Calvinist view actually. The Catholic view is that ALL are without excuse as God has revealed Himself to ALL of us and “faith in God’s existence is the most fundamental Catholic belief, and in the First Vatican Council the Church has taught that, while by the natural light of human reason God can be known in his works as origin and end of all created things, God has also chosen to reveal himself and his will supernaturally in the ways indicated in the Letter to the Hebrews 1:1-2.”
@@joevasanu7459 All can come to know there is a God by Natural reason; but not the True Church or the True Faith. That has to be revealed by God (which was my point) as Jesus Himself said 'no comes to me unless the Father draw them'.
You can tell by the way Mike speaks, his anxiety is rooted in his rebellion towards the truth. How doubt enters his heart, he will look for anything online to validate his doubt. His anxiety speaks of a lack of peace in his soul, a rebellion towards truth, at least that's what I see.
You lost me at idol worship. Go read a single church teaching document before saying anything else about the Catholic Church
Great video . Jesus and the Apostles never practiced Judaism , ever . They practiced ( followed) the Law and the Prophets . Judaism is a Babylonian corruption of the Law and the Prophets . If we are spitting hairs we might as well split them right .? 😉 The word Judaism is not used in the Bible , Old or New Testament . It is a construct to confuse Christians into thinking that Jesus and the Apostles followed Judaism , which the did NOT !
The Apocrypha collection of books is historical in nature. None of these books passed Drash or Hermeneutics. Meaning there are errors and contradictions to the Bible Canon. So, they can't be used for interpretation of scriptures or Doctrine. But there are cross references and they can be used in a Sermon or Liturgy. Study bibles still contain them. And you can get them separately. The Strong Concordance still has connections to them.
The Dueterocanonicals are not Apcrocrypha. They are part of the Canon of Scripture
This is so dumb. You lost me at "why is he calling it the apocrypha what the heck is that?" Feining outrage for the word he used that you shouldnt be complaining about so heavy. Catholicism is heterodox idol worship, and i honestly can't understand how you all fall for it
Show respect for those who made you à christian
Did you get the faith from jesus or paul
Nope
Catholics did bring it to you
Slanderer
So dramatic lol
"Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."
-St. Ignatius of Antioch, 35 - 107 AD
(A Disciple Of The Apostle John)
@ThatOneGuyWhatsHisName, Nothing dumb at all - Catholicism is the only true New Covenant worship of the Triune God - nothing whatsoever to do with idol worship
@@debbiedmeades3805where did Jesus say salvation comes only if you join the rc? Romans for example never says it. But again you don’t believe in sola