Agree. They didn’t want a road tunnel and they certainly don’t want a rail line. I’m ashamed to be part of a society that one potion dislikes people living in other areas. No wonder parking fees are horrendous in the northern beaches.
NIMBY is the biggest obstacle for the next generation, unfortunately also is the most important voting block that government can’t toss away. They are wealthy too. All the bad traits people can have are together, in such an unholy fashion.
One of the things that improves reliability is eliminating interlining, so that a problem on one line doesn't flow on to another line. Better to cross and interchange with the Metro M1 and existing North Shore line, such as Victoria Cross and Wollstoncraft, then run through a series of suburbs that have no rail at present (eg Northwood, Longueville, Hunters Hill, Drummoyne), interchange with the Metro West at say Five Dock, then take an arc interchanging with several heavy rail lines and the Bankstown extension of the M1, ending somewhere around Botany Bay (eg Blakehurst), or even build a new faster route to Kirrawee and convert the Cronulla branch. Oh, and extend the northern end to Mona Vale.
Both ideas are doable and moreso now with that northern line ridership down 40% (!), matro is obviously more efficient, andI do think now though the heavy rail extensions might be done for good (except for maybe one which I'll talk about in an upcoming video!)
@@RoboPNorthern Beaches is a NIMBY area. You’ll never allow good public transport. I recall how self satisfied the area was with their little lockdown and WFH moment, sitting there judging the west like they always do. Could you imagine these people allowing a quick and convenient train to run through their suburbs? Not going to happen.
Interesting video. Many years ago, the northern beaches, at least far as Newport used to be served by electric trams. Unfortunately, in later years, those tram routes were replaced by buses. Your idea of using the Metro sounds quite good. If it is underground, it would avoid all the traffic. I was also thinking of light rail, but then there would have to be some off road areas available, as the trams would also need to avoid the busy traffic.
Love your double deck bus picture. I rode them on many occasions. Just of interest, the last trip that I made to Palm Beach was in an Atlantian blue double deck bus from Sydney CBD in the early 1980s. It was certainly high up in the top deck while crossing the Harbour Bridge. That was one experience that I remember well.
I think the community opinion on public transport in the lower northern beaches is very different to areas north of Dee Why, so I think the general idea is right. However, adding a branch line to Metro is a huge mistake, it undermines all the line capacity needed out to Macquarie Park and beyond, complicates the stopping patterns, so you get platform crowding in the CBD, and reduces the reliability of the network. Metro lines are much better without branches. I think a better idea is to do something similar to Sydney Metro, upgrade an old Sydney Trains line south of the city to Metro, and extend it across the harbour. That way you improve capacity and reliability on the Sydney Trains network and expand the metro network. Maybe the Airport line? Would be nice to have single deck trains to the airport.
I agree that would be great, the idea in this video is partly based on low cost and risk involved, but I definitely agree connecting the beaches to the airport would likely get a huge tick of approval from people! The line out to Macquarie Park and beyond could stay at the same frequency based on my idea, but the line within the city and out to Bankstown could increase to 2-3 minute intervals with an alternative line to the beaches.
I personally think we should use the infrastructure that was built for the original Northern beaches train proposal, re-open platforms 1 and 2 at Wynyard station, and the tunnels to the harbor bridge. Re-allocate the two lanes that were for the northern beaches on the bridge to a metro, and then run them into the northern beaches as a new corridor. The infrastructure is basically already there. Maybee do this at the same time as the third harbor crossing is built to reduce the impact of congestion.
@@varno It would be nice if the stub tunnels at Wynyard could be extended south, but they are very shallow, so probably too difficult. If the line can’t be extended I don’t think Wynyard could handle the interchange demand, it’s already way beyond its design capacity. It would probably also be too difficult to meet modern safety, ventilation, and accessibility standards using the old tunnels and platforms. Maybe a tram terminus for a North Sydney light rail network 😛
@@GroovyCommuting Sydney Metro is designed for housing and employment projections to 2056, so having a branch line would cut that to say 2036, so then you’d need to build another line all the way out to the north west…. or remove the northern beaches branch and extend it across the harbour. Branching doesn’t really save any money and just makes the network more complicated.
@@GroovyCommuting instead of branching out, build a new line that terminates at one of those stations and let passenger walk to a diffferent service. Basically, build a brand new line that doesn’t need to reuse existing rail infrastructure. Then we might have a Northen Beach metro line that connects to an existing station, but avoid the branching out issue that can slow the existing M1 lines speed and efficiency.
A better idea instead of making a branch off the city and northwest metro line they could reuse the other side of Sydney harbour bridge along the old tram corridor and re use the old tunnels built under the city and out to Redfern then travelling to parramatta via Glebe, Drummoyne, Gladesville and Ryde
I would like to see a separate Metro Line for the Northern Beaches called Sydney Metro M4 Northeast Line from the city to Mono Vale and even Gosford via Manly and Brookvale to name a few in the northeast to Botany Bay and existing Sydney Airport in the southern end. Now with M1 now operating, M2 Western Airport Line and M3 Metro West Line.
Yes please, the roads in and out of the Northern Beaches are so badly congested that we need something like this. I spent about 15 years commuting from the Warringah Mall bus stop into the city and back in ridiculously overcrowded buses. It was a special kind of hell. And I would look out at the cars my bus had to compete with and they were nearly all single occupancy. Ridiculous!!!!!
I live in the NB and I want a Metro, and have wanted it for years. I don't understand why we have to be 2nd class citizens with such poor public transport!
This is better than the road link, I sit on those buses to work. But I would have less stations, drop the Cremorne and Seaforth stations to increase journey times. You probably also want stage 1 to go to Brookvale since you'll need a very large train/bus interchange. And the other option instead of a metro branch line is to use the stub tunnels already at the existing north Sydney station
I think a light rail line from the northern beaches to North Sydney, would be much cheaper and still quite effective as a feeder line for metro and trains.maybe even reviving the old tram route that used to go to the Underground at Wynard.
In theory, it’s a great idea, but didn’t they have a lot of trouble obtaining the climbing ability of the metro trains and given the heights of Mosman and Seaforth and having to go under the split bridge it seems almost more like a roller coaster ride than a metro
@@Jean-claudeBranch hmm wonder what the depth and elevation of the current metro tunnel considering how deep Sydney Harbour is and how high north Sydney is…. Compared to the valley between Mosman and seaforth and that water on the spit bridge…. That why I honestly suggested ditching the idea of something though the spit and divert it via the forest area to Chatswood or crows nest, yeah elevation is also bad there but I think it’s an easier workaround and probs would be more closer to Sydney Harbour depth or 2 tunnels can be built with a bridge next to Roseville bridge.
@@GazzOak69 I'm sure you are right, and of course as we are solving Sydney's transport problems the bigger issue is the insular peninsula doesn't want public transport. I think in Covid they were considering blocking the Rosevile bridge! and putting the spit bridge up.
Definitely yes. From North Sydney to Neutral Bay, Cremorne and Mosman with a new bridge over middle harbour at the spit to Balgowlah and Manly. Then up the coast to Dee Why and around through Frenchs Forest to Chatswood.
One of the main points of Metro is no branches. It must be a loop or single (two way) line. This is what enables the level of safety, frequency and automation of the Metro. Simple solution though build a new transfer station where you propose the branch and leave the tunnel headers open for future westward expansion, either under the harbour to Balmain parallel to the under construction western harbour road tunnel, or sticking to the north side of the harbour through Greenwich, longueville, Gladesville, Ryde, etc.
I’ve heard that the steep topography could be an issue getting from spit jnc to the northern beaches with a train line, although I’m not sure why considering we were able to tunnel under the harbour for the existing metro. If it is indeed a problem though, perhaps a small tunnel for busses from a new, wider spit bridge connecting to the warringah expressway could be an alternative for the northern beaches. I absolutely prefer the metro option though.
I have an idea. Mona Vale to Cronulla via Manly, Bondi, Maroubra, etc. A true beaches link connecting to all other lines/etc. Then we can say it’s an easy city to explore and commute within.
Then 4 million people from far west can go to the beaches on train. Probably cronulla riot of 2005 will occur every year. The government is now building sand beaches in the west along the river and lake instead.
Those who have nobbled the Northern Beaches Railways metro or otherwise are now getting old, thankfully. They were miffed when the local Police Crime Command Superintendent called their bluff about rail bringing criminals into the area. He unfortunately was unable to embarrass the Mosman and Pittwater branches of the Liberal Party into abandoning their bias, despite Mike Baird being Premier at the time. Too many people with their adulthood invested in their driver's licences. Bring on a metro line but extend it to Mona Vale or even Avalon.
Having the metro run parallel with the North Shore Line from Chatswood to North Sydney was the silliest thing we did . The metro should have looped towards Mosman,. Having a metro to bus junction at Mosman or Neutral Bay would have done well.
An excellent, well constructed and lucid introductory clip. Some comments include: - There's no doubt about road congestion in the area. - I don't 'like' subsidised services of any kind for affluent areas, but there is a case for investing in public transport to counter-balance public costs of the existing arrangements. - Considered as an investment, you will get a better and wider return from Western Sydney (a 'new money' economy focussed on productivity from competitive goods and services - something we really need) than from the Northern Shore and Beaches (an 'old money' economy, focussed on rent-seeking activity and shoving assets around without them actually doing much). - Creating a branch of the NW section of the M1 Metro is not really doable from an engineering perspective - even if doable, splitting metros is possible, but hardly ideal. For discussion purposes: - Option 1 is to use the North Sydney station stub tunnels as the beginning of an underground Northern Beaches line (which is what they were intended for originally). Probably running out along the B-Line route with stations at similar locations to its limited stops. Cross-platform exchange with North Shore services is one possibility, another is re-establishing tracks along the eastern side of the Harbour Bridge into old Wynyard 1 and 2 (is that still possible??) or onto above Circular Quay station. - Option 2 is to use surface light rail from North Sydney along the B-line route. Probably the most disruptive option and least likely to make a positive improvement; but maybe cheaper, and modern low floor trams can be made look nice, and can improve the quality of coffee along the route. - Option 3 (out of left field, only ever suggested by myself and IIRC R M Transit) is to extend the Eastern Suburbs line (or a new line from the Eastern Side of the City), across under the heads then up the coast. An amusing variation is that it might run only from Double Bay to Whale Beach, so users could ride its entire length without ever having to meet anyone unlike themselves. - Option 4 - Maintain the status quo. Different options for the link include: - Surface light metro (see above) - Sydney Trains heavy rail underground - probably challenged by the ascents and descents along the route (like top of Mosman down to and under The Spit), - perhaps is an overkill in capacity, with train lengths necessitating larger and more expensive infrastructure. - Sydney Metro rail, similar to M1 (driverless - similar issues to heavy rail) - Light Metro rail, similar to Western Sydney Airport Metro - maybe better matched to probable capacity requirements in a low to medium density route - better able to deal with gradients - more compact and cheaper to build but still with good capacity. - Stadtbahn or Tramtrains (nothing like it in Oz) but common overseas - A train made up of high floor trams running like an underground metro but cheaper - Probably better matched to demand and quite able to deal with gradients, and negotiate tight turns getting from North Sydney across the bridge - Would be hated by 'standardisation' advocates. Possibly not elegant enough for Northern Beaches expectation, but convertible to metro relatively easy when needed. It needs a group with a combined knowledge of transit systems, geological surveys, transit economics, and access to relevant data to determinate likely ridership, capacity needs, infrastructure, and best route. From that you could probably derive the most appropriate overall option.
I’d counter with: - Sydney should have at least one metro construction in progress at any given time. Staring at you, NSW ALP. - Never stop planning & building metro. - Then it’s just a case of choosing Who Next - Then I’d point out the areas who are asking loudly for more public transport - north-west Hills used to be it - and I think Oran Park and joining Bradfield to Macarthur or Leppington or both, is next - Then you’ve got Tallawong to St Marys - Then you’ve got Carlingford to Epping, but the BIGGEST need is in thr Victoria Road corridor. I also believe it would be far more popular. The “Anzac” metro corridor was sadly cancelled and overlooked in the last two political supercycles, nearly getting made and definitely getting reviewed. Drummoyne is a congested hub that doesn’t even have a hope of relief, and I’m comparing them to Rozelle who could have 80% of the lanes shut and removed tomorrow. WHAT IS WRONG WITH THE GOVERNMENT, just close Victoria Road Rozelle will you?? Why does it even carry the “A40” sign, eff eff ess. But the corridor from the city to Parramatta via Gladesville should really be rail. Preferably subway under Victoria Road but I guess a really large LRT like George St might be okay. The residents there are already using buses that aren’t as good as B-Line, and there’s no proposals for a road tunnel. So they need a metro.
@@whophd That all assumes we have the means to do it. That requires a level of general productivity that we increasingly no longer have. That needs to be worked on as a prerequisite.
@@whophd I came up with an idea of a secondary line (which rips off the anzac line idea). So metro start in castle hill sharing with nwrl and (connect to M1 if current M1 have issues, so its can go up to tallawong or further if extended), goes to north rocks, carlingford, eastwood or denistone, west ryde, top ryde, gladesville, both north and south drumyone (one to serve the main shops and another to serve berko point), balmain or rozelle and connect on to west metro at the bays.
Really interesting points, I’d just like to add some of my own: This is somewhat tangential however not everyone in the area is rich, there are a lot of apartments in Dee Why and the Northern beaches aren’t really much wealthier than most of Sydney, apart from beachside suburbs, they just have less white people. Even the majority of people who live in Mosman live in apartments. However these people would benefit most from public transport links. And when we talk about the options like light rail, train or bus lines I don’t think any would actually be that practical. The B-line had a very high budget and I think is a great substitute to a light rail which you pointed out, and the services are frequent and convenient. A tram line along the same route would offer not much benefit. Disregarding how a tram line would cross across the Harbour Bridge it’d also need to somehow traverse the mess that is Military Road and no doubt a tunnel or bridge would be required over the Spit. I genuinely think the B-line is akin to what this would look like. It really just boils down to the current issue - it’s hard to get past military road and do all of that nonsense. But really the geography, cost of land acquisition and existing infrastructure poses a huge problem already. I think the best option would be the tunnel link, which I’m not sure is happening (you can correct me), from the Northbridge area to I believe Seaforth, which would alleviate a lot of traffic flowing through the bridge. You also have to consider the fact that the LNS and some suburbs in the Northern Beaches (excluding ones like French’s forest, Dee Why, Cromer etc.) are predicted to be very, very low growth since they are already quite dense (Mosman I believe is only building 500 ‘affordable’ housing units in the development programme?), so would it be worth it? Not quite sure. Additional B-line services, a connection not through the Spit seem to be the best options.
@@sedergfff7155 Thanks for that interesting reply. I'm not entirely convinced the area's affluence is similar to the West. I live in a seriously nice area, but a good 2 bedroom flat here is currently going for about $500-550K. However, I read an interesting article years ago that suggested the big difference is more what people spend their money on. It accepted the West has less wealth but was trying to understand why it sometimes has greater liquidity. The geography is a real killer in your area and high capacity public transport of any sort is likely to be resisted, similar to how it has been in Bondi and Woollahra. Good luck with it all. The big revolution in the West is to develop it as a separate city from Harbour Sydney, so eventually only a precious few need to commute to the 'East End' at all. It is already a good way towards that (though often not recognised as such) and WSI Airport will further catalyse the effect. Perhaps something similar can also be fostered across the North.
I don’t know how well branch lines work on automated metros because of merging traffic when you have services running frequently. I suppose it should be possible but not ideal as it introduces switching. None of the current or planned metros have branches do they?
None that will branch in a merge, but require the passenger to alight and get on another train. I suppose it depends whether a commuter would find it more efficient to change lines at a terminus rather than stay on the train to merge onto another line. The idea is based on increasing the capacity/reducing waiting times on the remainder of that line (the busier cbd stations). Vancouver's automated skytrain system is an example of using the branch line system successfully.
@@GroovyCommuting I'd be a bit cautious about comparisons with the awesome Vancouver Skytrain. It has places where two lines share some stations, and a minor spur serving the airport. All its junctions are grade separated (no crossings between opposite direction tracks). It has nothing like two extensive branches joining to feed into a single line, which has been designed only for one of those feeder branches.
While I support the Northern beaches Metro concept, the branchline concept is a step backwards on a number of fronts. While it does give some advantages such as ensuring there would be an alternate route through the CBD and across the harbour should there be an incident impacting train Chatswood way and beyond, that's about it. Reduced construction cost is incorrect because you would need to use specialised underground construction methods on the existing portion of the line with many months of trackwork to incorporate the changes that weren't originally designed into the construction. Similar to how Melbourne has built an underground cavern for their new railway. It also means that we are tangling the web of railway lines again which is the mistake we made 50+ years ago with the heavy rail network. Part of the reason the London Underground works so well is that most of the lines are separate tracks. That means a delay on one line doesn't impact the others. Whereas in Sydney, unfortunately a delay on one rail line in Sydney delays all others because they share tracks. The purpose of metro was to add capacity without adding congestion, which I believe it has achieved. The better concept in my opinion would be a through running line either through connecting to the existing line or through the CBD. I'll put a few options below. Option 1 and the cheapest option would be to make the line interchange at say Crows Nest station and then continue west towards Gladesville, then Meadow Bank interchange, then Telopea interchange with Light rail, then north of parramatta before then turning north towards the hills district. This would serve 3 functions, 1. Hills to Parramatta link, 2. North of Parramatta River to North Sydney link, and 3 Northern beaches link. These three communities/areas generally wouldn't interact and travel between each other, but would travel to interchanges at North Parramatta and Crows Nest, hopefully combatting the Northern beaches superiority complex of OTHER come to MY BEACH. Option 2 would be a norther beaches link with YET ANOTHER harbour crossing separate to the existing harbour crossing. Then there's be sub options. Option 2a would be to have the line run through the CBD and then convert 2 of the existing Illawarra tracks from St. Peters to Hurstville, before going underground at Hurstville again to Sutherland and then converting the Sutherland to Cronulla branchline to metro. Option 2b would be a completely new rail line south of Sydney, possibly still towards Hurstville and Sutherland or instead toward the airport and botany. That's my thoughts. Otherwise great video. Thanks for the content.
I worked on some of the C&SW Metro Project; there is no way to branch the existing Metro line now because they made the decision not to dig stub tunnels for a Beaches extension at Victoria Cross despite planning for it initially. Branching from Chatswood may be more doable because it is above ground, but TfNSW is very much against Metro having any branching. I dont think we want the Beaches Line to be a branch either, internal Metro modelling shows the Beaches Line would have more ridership than either Metro West or Metro NW+C&SW. I think the way to convince people on the Beaches to accept a rail line is to give them a direct connection to the Airport Line. Modelling for the C&SW Metro Project showed that the strongest alternative for conversion to Metro after the Bankstown Line was to convert the Airport line to Revesby. I have suggested before they should go ahead and convert the Airport Line to a Metro with Phase 1 terminating at Central, then dig a new tunnel Extension under the CBD and either across the eastern side of the Harbour Bridge or underneath the harbour up the Beaches. Another alternative is to convert the North Shore Line to Metro and branch from North Sydney, but you will probably have to wait until High Speed Rail to Newcastle takes away all the Central Coast trains. I had also privately wondered if the new high speed rail to Newcastle shouldnt just tunnel all the way to Gosford and have a station on the Beaches at Mona Vale or Dee Why, and then just run light rail along Pittwater Road feeding the HSR stop. There are a lot of possibilities.
So many possibilities! Thanks for sharing. The branch from Victoria Cross was to create better connectivity to Chatswood and the North Shore. As it stands now, the bus connections between both are pretty underwhelming.
But i do like the idea of your convert airport section from revesby to somewhere in northern beaches, i donno what extra stations are needed between green square and lets say northern sydney without duplicating though other stations.
@@GazzOak69 you would definitely want a connection at Central because the existing Airport Tunnels end there anyway, then I think the last reserved Tunnel route under the CBD which still remains is underneath Sussex Street which would be good to have a station near Town Hall on the Western side of the City. You possibly dont even need any more CBD stations than that, they are super expensive and difficult to construct and slow suburban journeys down. Other alternative is to stick to the Western edge of the CBD. Ideally you need an interchange with Metro West so If Metro West doesnt go to Green Square or Central it could be awkward. EDIT: It *might* be possible to connect somehow onto the Harbour Bridge but the problem is when they did the infrastructure assessment for the C&SW Metro they decided the Bridge isnt capable of running more than 26 trains per hour whereas the new harbour metro tunnel crossing is capable of running 30-36 trains per hour or even more.
For the situation between dee why and netural bay/mosman...... I don't think tunneling though the spit would be practical at all (and that why i suggested the via frenches forest forest route). But I could suggest an light rail between north sydney and taronga zoo (that if northern beaches road tunnel get revived again). And I think northern beaches needs both a road and rail tunnel and solution.
@@sedergfff7155 hmm I seen the 100, bit like a Mosman variant of the m40 prior to the 100. Its seem to match up to m40 timetable…. I guess it’s can handle things for a long time to come. I think Mosman is tedious to connect to sydney easily…
Northern Beaches Line should follow your route to Der Why but then continue along the Warringah Rd corridor with stops at Beacon Hill, French Forest, Forestville, Willoughby and then join back to the NW Metro st Chatswood.
Any Northern Beaches Metro needs to think outside the box. UTS Lane Cove - Chatswood - French's Forest - Brookvale - Dee Why Metro - Narrabeen - Mona Vale - Newport - Avalon - Palm Beach - Umina Beach - Woy Woy Station - Kariong- Somersby. Open up massive development opportunities at the empty places and link them to desirable destinations, simultaneously serving desirable locations connecting them to the wider rail network - if not directly to the current CBD. At the same time, acknowledge that one line can't serve everyone everywhere, so build a 2nd line simultaneously. St Mary's Metro- Llandilo - Marsden Park - Schofields Station - Rouse Hill Metro - Dural- Hornsby Station - Belrose - Dee Why Metro - Curl Curl - Manly - Watson's Bay- Bondi Beach - Bondi Junction Station - Moore Park - Waterloo Metro - USyd - The Bays Metro - Balmain - Cockatoo Island - Hunter's Hill- Riverview - UTS Lane Cove. And would you look at that? Maybe one line will do after all. Providing odd links by rail that aren't replicated by road makes public transport more interesting. Like Como to Oatley.Or Rhodes to Meadowbank. Connecting communities (new or existing) while keeping them distinct and a little more unique.
Hear me out: Victoria cross Neutral Bay Mosman (near junction) Seaforth Balgowlah Brookvale Dee why Narrabeen Warriewood Monavale Bayview (With a new ferry terminus to the central coast that could be on the opal network unlike the current palm beach ones)
You can’t. It’s too late. You would probably have to close the metro between Barangaroo and Chatswood for at least a year to connect the tunnel. The structural integrity of a tunnel made with a TBM relies on the pressure from the surrounding earth.
Also B-line at the moment is an upgrade, but i think its should have full clearway at all hours on its route (but on the overall scheme, i find spit rd horrible)
@@kennylee8936 that’s true, but at least for the time being until they can work though a ideal metro line, some simple upgrades which won’t cost a cent and a few months to implement.
@@GazzOak69 Unless if these buses get an uninterrupted road the whole way, able to travel up to 100km/h in between stops, come every 2mins, and have a prospect to build a second route from Dee Why to Chatswood...then there's no way in hell a bus would ever be good enough compared to a train. Also, as long as the NB only has buses and no faster way to move around...buses will continue to be slow because too many people are car dependant. I'd like to think people understand this concept but the beaches just has no other option. So...unless if the NB gets a train line...they will ALWAYS have traffic problems.
@@kennylee8936 I’d argue NIMBY has to be dealt with first before anything drastic can happen, and sadly I may not be able to live long enough to see it happening with my own eyes. So for now uninterrupted bus lane is probably the cheapest option available.
@@estellebright2579 The silent majority (people who want the train line)...need a voice...they're already fed up with the traffic...they need someone whom they can believe can silence the NIMBYs once and for all. Money can't buy you silence forever and that's all the NIMBYS have.
If the metro idea doesn't get traction or still gets crowded maybe a light rail but that still would be a hard sell and would require lane reduction on those roads plus on the harbour bridge and require a city terminus. I recon the light rail could have branches to taronga zoo and manly. Potentially chatswood and Willoughby
Too slow, too congested, and the corridor is too constrained unfortunately. The Beaches corridor will be the highest-ridership rail line left in the city if done properly, it really needs to be tunnelled and have that fast speed to be effective
The area had trams to many destinations until the 1950s. A shame they didn't keep them, but yes the roads are too congested now to put a new one in. Tunnelling is really the only option.
@@GroovyCommutingI disagree, it’s not too congested - the line went from Narrabeen to Manly and it was mostly on the wide open 6-lane road that was only 2 lanes then. The Spit Bridge is ridiculous though. It should be bus and cycle only, and keep the whole of Military Road for locals. If you want to drive across middle harbour, pay for the luxury tunnel option. Or take a tram to Manly, sure.
There are two other options, in many ways both better optimised for that sort of area. They are Light Metro (the forthcoming WSI Airport metro is at the 'high end' of light metro, and the first to be implemented in Australia) and StadtBahn or City Trains (coupled high floor trams behaving like a train - less 'fancy' but agile and less expensive, with the ability to easily convert to a true metro later on - not currently in use in Australia). The Canadian transport vlogger, 'RM Transit' has excellent clips about both.
metro west coming all the way into hunter street seems a missed opportunity not to continue out toward cremorne/mosman etc from there, rather than opening a can of worms with the existing city metro. gives hunter street more of a point to existing also being a through station.
actually looking at a map of metro west, it almost looks like the plan is to hook hunter street up to kings cross, and ultimately bondi jct - i wonder if their longer term plan is to convert the eastern suburbs line to metro? interesting.
The primary purpose of Metro West is to support the 'three cities' concept by connecting their centres together, namely the Eastern Harbour City (Hunter St), the Central River City (centred on Parramatta - by 2032), and the Western Parkland City, (pivoted on the WSI Airport/Aerotropolis - by 2050?). While doing that it will also service enroute suburbs, with a possible/probable eastern extension to Zetland + 1 (2042?) Something to keep in mind. It's not all about ridership, but the broader return on investment. And Western Sydney wins that one. It's already more populated than the rest of greater Sydney, is growing faster and has a work ethic that is optimised for creating new wealth through hard industry. It's the third biggest industrial area in the country. In contrast the East End of Sydney has systematically devolved all but its soft industries like harbour views, finance and tourism. For example it once had a true working harbour, but all that remains now is mostly a pleasure lake and a venue for events. Not that Western Sydney will compete with the East End of Sydney so much as with Brisbane, Melbourne, Auckland and Adelaide, for a share of a new economy emerging in the wake of a post-globalised and less benign world. Sydney's East-Enders won't compete with the West either, as it involves working up a sweat and getting their hands dirty. But it will probably be smart enough to invest in the West.
I think if a general survey were to be done in the beaches...most people would approve of it...I Don't buy the idea of the beaches not wanting it and at the same time, being okay with congestion. To any beaches locals here...if Natalie Ward (I believe a beaches resident herself), if voted it...reckon she would do anything about it?
@@whophd No I don't but the people I've met from the beaches said that they're fed up with buses and wish for a train line. But overall...I think it's ridiculous that people would mindlessly put up with traffic because they don't want a train line. Like NB people would have to be a different breed of stupid if they think the state of their infrastructure is good.
That's a HUGE misconception...the northern beaches local government are corrupt individuals who cater for the small minority and don't care for the majority...I doubt people are buying the B Line as an adequate transportation for the area.
@@GroovyCommuting As a northern beaches local who has really enjoyed the new city Metro stations (and I was there at 4:50am for the first train), I have to point out how underrated the B-Line is. Do you know what never closes on the weekends for trackwork? The B-Line! If I’m driving next to a B-Line and it stops to pick up passengers, it ALWAYS overtakes me by the next stop. I have NEVER been able to drive faster than a B-Line bus, in heavy traffic or light traffic. Do you think all the express buses are the same? NO. It’s a bit weird and mysterious even. But the B-Line has different drivers or more powerful engines or different traffic phasing - or all of the above and something else? Choosing any other express bus never works to beat the B-Line.
@@whophd I think bline is not bad but its could be a ton useful if parking is removed along the route and spit bridge opening is restricted at 5am then 9pm at night on weekdays and 6am, 8am, 6pm and 9pm for weekends.
Yeah it’s just weird to oppose improving public transport infrastructure. It’s almost like some sort of nostalgia of the long past, when there were far fewer cars?
We moved from the northern beaches to a more convenient location because of the horrific traffic and poor public transport there. Nice place to live if you never have to leave your house.
People in the Northern Beaches will never accept a metro because it means upzoning the entire region. NSW is better of creating some light rail or interurban line to feed into the existing metro
I think you're thinking of a loud minority who thing they speak for the whole Northern Beaches, these are people who probably never leave home and witness the congestion.
@@kennylee8936 a loud, wealthy, and old minority who never need to work again or commute, thus having plenty of time to enjoy traffic or not traveling outside their suburbs much at all.
Well the pretentious wankers who live there believe it will bring too many un desirables to the area, which will in turn deflate their property value. This is the only way they can measure their self-worth as a human.
Because they’re all entitled rich bums and they protest whenever a train line is proposed because they don’t want to attract “poor people” from the rest of Sydney to “their” beaches
If you asked typical beaches people...they would be all in favour of it. People who oppose it have no idea of the congestion on Pittwater road/Warringah road/spit bridge.
They want their walled garden not infiltrated by the "undesirables" from the rest of Sydney, much like how Bondi went to war over an extension of the T4 to the beach itself.
nb is already packed to the point where essentially all farmland has been bought up by developers bar some parts in Ingleside. Adding transit infrastructure like a metro would overwhelm the little above ground infrastructure they currently have. Like cool, now you have another 10,000 people in dy... what's next like even a metro is just moving a problem further down the line, the more you make the area moveable/transportable, the more people will come and the busier it'll get and then you're back at square one. because it's such a nice area it's literally always going to be busy, and you can only really move around where it's going to be busy
The current Labor Government, in an act of political bastardry, has withdrawn funding of the badly needed Mona Vale Road upgrade. The half completed works are now abandoned. And the old existing road is crumbling through a lack of maintenance. There is no way the government is going to spend serious money on a rail line.
The metro to northern beaches will never happen due to small population. Dee Why only have 24000 residents. The seaforth only have 7500 residents. The whole mosman only have 30000 residents. How many % of the total population there need to go out at the peak hours for work? Probably less than 20%. There is no business cases for such construction unless government can justify the cost by introducing the high rise apartments, and increase the population by 300% and make the housing more affordable. Then you know where the NIBYS comes from. Billion dollars construction does not make sense as northern beaches lead to no where, unless NSW government planned to build a large satellite city between Sydney and Newcastle. The metro to northern beaches thus have no business incentive if no large property development projects are available.
The Northern Beaches LGA (local government area) is the third most populated LGA in the entire city - behind only Canterbury/Bankstown and Blacktown, and above Paramatta and Sutherland. The number of employed people and commuting rates on the Northern Beaches are similar to out west with around 44% working from home, 32-35% going by car and 4-7% going by public transport. The idea there's less demand is incorrect. There's certainly a business case for higher-density development with apartments, but it's all about placement. Dee Why is the prime test cast for this - it is already 75% high-density apartments and 10% medium density dwellings - just 15% are standalone houses. That's one of the highest rates for apartment buildings in the country. 24,000 people in the suburb doesn't sound like much, but that's over just 3 sq. km - its actual population density is on par with Coogee. Certainly, commercial areas like Balgowlah, Brookvale, Narrabeen and Mona Vale could easily replace plenty of their empty shop fronts and worn-down infrastructure with major new apartment and entertainment complexes.
The Beaches Link tunnel will be so much cheaper, quicker, and deliver much greater bang for buck economic impact than a full metro line up the Northern Beaches. It will also stir up a lot less resistance from the Nimbys. Build the Link first, then think about Metro.
The political situation, is that Labor, wouldn’t support a line, into conservative territory, some kind of deal with teals and Labor federal and state governments would be necessary. But given that, clean disruption money, could flow towards such a line, under conservative rule state and federal, the clean disruption money, wouldn’t flow, as easily. China has been very successful, with clean disruption, but has real estate problems, some kind of a deal, for Metro and high speed rail lines, in exchange, for iron ore and metallurgic coal, is possible. The same sort of deal, with India, is possible, their clean disruption and Metro expansion, is very rapid, I think the airport and west Metro trains are Indian. Indian tunnelling equipment, station construction materials and even workers, could do the job, much more cheaply, than we could do the job ourselves, but we’d have to accept guest workers.
As a northern beaches joe, i will share my 2 cents (or more than that). Have a loop line between hurstville and northern beaches (its will start in Hurstville, follow the A3 road (probs be more eastwards) - kingsgrove (interchange with T8), - clemton park (probs near canterbury hospital) - campsie (interchange with M1) - enfield - stratty (its will interchange but probs be a little separated from actual stratty station) - DFO - sydney olympic park (interchange with west metro and parra light rail) - wentworth point - top ryde - macquarie park (interchange with M1) - gordon - st ives - terry hills - mona vale - warriewood - (maybe a station in narraben, but due to marsh and narrabeen lake between warriewood and dee why, its would very hard to do an underground stations, unless if is can be above ground), - dee why - northern beaches hospital or frenches forest - forestville - willoughby (i thought of chatswood, but willoughby needs something), - RNS - crows nest Then after all these stations to merge and ether duplicate or share with M1 till sydenham, or have a separate line, donno what stations should be done) then finally serve the T4 stations between sydneham and hurstville for a loop and its will leave T4 to be all express between hurstville and sydenham. If government didn't fuck around with M1 and western sydney airport line by differentiating the gauges then the M1 should become a another loop line with sydney having 2 crossed loop lines, i know of bejing having 2 loop lines but they don't meet each other, donno what other cities have 2 loop lines. I also think with the current western sydney metro, i think we can get rid of the olympic line spur altogether as long as the parra tram get extended to lidcombe rather than terminate in olympic park.
I live in Dee Why and commute to Barangaroo, also a big fan of mass rapid transit. But I don't see this idea ever happening. Simple Reason - There is no business case. Some things I don't see addressed in the video: Victoria Cross was not designed to have a branch line. Are you expecting the NB line to terminate at Victoria Cross, or continue into the city? If so, then that means you are reducing services on the existing line. Where would you insert the TBMs? What patronage are you expecting to make a return on investment? What buildings do you want demolished to make way for stations? TBM's require consistent hard rock to drill through. The NB has multiple inconsistencies, plus bodies of water above it dont help. Look at the Snowy 2.0 tunnel kerfuffle. NB population growth is one of the lowest in Sydney (It is not highly populated). What other more in demand public transport services are you sacrificing to build this. The hunter/central coast region which is car dependant will have triple the population. The NB barely makes up 5% of Sydney's population in 20 years, what makes the residents of NB so special that they deserve more tax payer money being spent on them?
There’s nothing “band aid” about the Beaches Link if you shut Military Road and turn it back into a local road that it used to be. Why is nobody advocating this for Victoria Road and Parramatta Road? WE HAVE ALL THESE STROADS so shut them! I find it ridiculous fhat urbanists are against toll roads. Either you want to discourage driving, or you don’t.
While we are at it, might as well shut down all existing bus services to the region and turn the entire suburb into public transport free region so locals can enjoy themselves better I guess.
The beaches link tunnel wasn't the solution to traffic woes. The Metro is showing the city how revolutionary it is. The Liberals had some great ideas and bone headed ones for sure!
@whophd thank God someone else gets it. The Beaches Link tunnel has incredible potential to make a gigantically positive impact for people all the way up the Northern Beaches and indeed the North Shore itself.
As an Nepalese immigrant residing in Strathfield, Sydney for seven years, I have concerns regarding the potential impact of expanded train connectivity from the northern beaches to western Sydney or across the harbour bridge on the area's cultural identity. The northern beaches presently exemplify quintessential Australian charm, which may be compromised by an influx of immigrants. Considering Australia has provided numerous opportunities for economic prosperity and a better life, I believe it is essential to preserve the area's character as a gesture of reciprocity. The current public transport is alright with increasing numbers of buses in future in my opinion
The 2005 cronulla riot was the policy turning point. Cronulla beach is the only beach that have train access in Sydney. The consideration is not just from the NIMBYS. No one wants to open a can of worms in mosman and northern beaches like cronulla.
as someone from the Northern Beaches we don't want poor people from the Western Suburbs turning our suburbs into refugee camps. we don't want public transport
Ha, Ha. One of my staff a few years back was from the Northern Beaches, and was transferred out to our facility in the western suburbs. He was genuinely scared of the prospect of having to work in the area, expected it to be violent crime ridden, and took a lot of convincing to even use the local shopping centre to get lunch. It only took a few weeks for him to notice some positive peculiarities of the west. First was how the local people at our facility were so pragmatic and enthusiastic about getting projects done. Far less fuss than he was accustomed to. They might have looked like a Viking raiding party, but could easily be given general instructions from which they would develop the details, and check to ensure they weren't at cross purposes to anyone else. No micro-management needed nor wanted, and with an excellent evidence-based safety culture. The big shock to him however, were the young staff at the local shopping centre. He couldn't get over over how genuinely respectful and courteous they were. The diversity perplexed him a bit though. Sure there was a diversity of ethnicity where he lived, but they were all already successful and accomplished people. They were all in the same golf club, and their kids went to the same private schools. Out west however, he met the real and recent migrants, still coming to grips with a new culture and cost of living. Yet the older hands (many of whom had, or their parents had, been through a similar experience) were so genuinely helpful and welcoming to them. And not because it was 'company policy', but simply because they intuitively grasped it was the right and fair thing to do. I've lived in places like Vaucluse, Manly and Narrabeen as well as in the West, but the latter wins hands down for authenticity.
I’d much rather a Northern Beaches Metro over a Beaches Link road tunnel, imo. Would really unlock more connections to the wider PT network!
Too many NIMBYs who don't want other people at "their" becahes.
Do they even think of themselves as being part of Sydney?
Agree. They didn’t want a road tunnel and they certainly don’t want a rail line. I’m ashamed to be part of a society that one potion dislikes people living in other areas. No wonder parking fees are horrendous in the northern beaches.
NIMBY is the biggest obstacle for the next generation, unfortunately also is the most important voting block that government can’t toss away. They are wealthy too. All the bad traits people can have are together, in such an unholy fashion.
I live in the area and most people would want this, its just the noisy idiots that don't.
One of the things that improves reliability is eliminating interlining, so that a problem on one line doesn't flow on to another line.
Better to cross and interchange with the Metro M1 and existing North Shore line, such as Victoria Cross and Wollstoncraft, then run through a series of suburbs that have no rail at present (eg Northwood, Longueville, Hunters Hill, Drummoyne), interchange with the Metro West at say Five Dock, then take an arc interchanging with several heavy rail lines and the Bankstown extension of the M1, ending somewhere around Botany Bay (eg Blakehurst), or even build a new faster route to Kirrawee and convert the Cronulla branch.
Oh, and extend the northern end to Mona Vale.
Both ideas are doable and moreso now with that northern line ridership down 40% (!), matro is obviously more efficient, andI do think now though the heavy rail extensions might be done for good (except for maybe one which I'll talk about in an upcoming video!)
Good idea. Like a peripheral line feeding into other lines.
Make the idea in eastern suburb first before you try in even more hostile and wealthier northern beach Nimby.
They already have...it's in the 2056 plan to have 2 lines through the eastern suburbs...they already have light rail
We're not hostile to it.
Just some parts have rich boomers who don't give a shit.
Sydney west line. Hunter street - art gallery - cathedral - Taylor square- Paddington
@@RoboPNorthern Beaches is a NIMBY area. You’ll never allow good public transport. I recall how self satisfied the area was with their little lockdown and WFH moment, sitting there judging the west like they always do. Could you imagine these people allowing a quick and convenient train to run through their suburbs? Not going to happen.
Very good video! You have so much potential for the future! You’ve just gotten your 12th subscriber!
Thanks very much!
Interesting video. Many years ago, the northern beaches, at least far as Newport used to be served by electric trams. Unfortunately, in later years, those tram routes were replaced by buses. Your idea of using the Metro sounds quite good. If it is underground, it would avoid all the traffic. I was also thinking of light rail, but then there would have to be some off road areas available, as the trams would also need to avoid the busy traffic.
@@RGC198 Would've been great to maintain the tram network! Unfortunately with the traffic now, bringing them back would be difficult.
Love your double deck bus picture. I rode them on many occasions. Just of interest, the last trip that I made to Palm Beach was in an Atlantian blue double deck bus from Sydney CBD in the early 1980s. It was certainly high up in the top deck while crossing the Harbour Bridge. That was one experience that I remember well.
I think the community opinion on public transport in the lower northern beaches is very different to areas north of Dee Why, so I think the general idea is right. However, adding a branch line to Metro is a huge mistake, it undermines all the line capacity needed out to Macquarie Park and beyond, complicates the stopping patterns, so you get platform crowding in the CBD, and reduces the reliability of the network. Metro lines are much better without branches. I think a better idea is to do something similar to Sydney Metro, upgrade an old Sydney Trains line south of the city to Metro, and extend it across the harbour. That way you improve capacity and reliability on the Sydney Trains network and expand the metro network. Maybe the Airport line? Would be nice to have single deck trains to the airport.
I agree that would be great, the idea in this video is partly based on low cost and risk involved, but I definitely agree connecting the beaches to the airport would likely get a huge tick of approval from people! The line out to Macquarie Park and beyond could stay at the same frequency based on my idea, but the line within the city and out to Bankstown could increase to 2-3 minute intervals with an alternative line to the beaches.
I personally think we should use the infrastructure that was built for the original Northern beaches train proposal, re-open platforms 1 and 2 at Wynyard station, and the tunnels to the harbor bridge. Re-allocate the two lanes that were for the northern beaches on the bridge to a metro, and then run them into the northern beaches as a new corridor. The infrastructure is basically already there. Maybee do this at the same time as the third harbor crossing is built to reduce the impact of congestion.
@@varno It would be nice if the stub tunnels at Wynyard could be extended south, but they are very shallow, so probably too difficult. If the line can’t be extended I don’t think Wynyard could handle the interchange demand, it’s already way beyond its design capacity. It would probably also be too difficult to meet modern safety, ventilation, and accessibility standards using the old tunnels and platforms. Maybe a tram terminus for a North Sydney light rail network 😛
@@GroovyCommuting Sydney Metro is designed for housing and employment projections to 2056, so having a branch line would cut that to say 2036, so then you’d need to build another line all the way out to the north west…. or remove the northern beaches branch and extend it across the harbour. Branching doesn’t really save any money and just makes the network more complicated.
@@GroovyCommuting instead of branching out, build a new line that terminates at one of those stations and let passenger walk to a diffferent service. Basically, build a brand new line that doesn’t need to reuse existing rail infrastructure. Then we might have a Northen Beach metro line that connects to an existing station, but avoid the branching out issue that can slow the existing M1 lines speed and efficiency.
Great video. Something funny going on with the audio on the video though (see 4:19 for a good example). Best of luck with the channel.
Thankyou. My mic needs replacing :)
A better idea instead of making a branch off the city and northwest metro line they could reuse the other side of Sydney harbour bridge along the old tram corridor and re use the old tunnels built under the city and out to Redfern then travelling to parramatta via Glebe, Drummoyne, Gladesville and Ryde
I would like to see a separate Metro Line for the Northern Beaches called Sydney Metro M4 Northeast Line from the city to Mono Vale and even Gosford via Manly and Brookvale to name a few in the northeast to Botany Bay and existing Sydney Airport in the southern end. Now with M1 now operating, M2 Western Airport Line and M3 Metro West Line.
Yes please, the roads in and out of the Northern Beaches are so badly congested that we need something like this. I spent about 15 years commuting from the Warringah Mall bus stop into the city and back in ridiculously overcrowded buses. It was a special kind of hell. And I would look out at the cars my bus had to compete with and they were nearly all single occupancy. Ridiculous!!!!!
Northern Beaches people say they don't need a metro. All the rest of Sydney says they need a metro. Stuff it.
I live in the NB and I want a Metro, and have wanted it for years. I don't understand why we have to be 2nd class citizens with such poor public transport!
This is better than the road link, I sit on those buses to work. But I would have less stations, drop the Cremorne and Seaforth stations to increase journey times. You probably also want stage 1 to go to Brookvale since you'll need a very large train/bus interchange. And the other option instead of a metro branch line is to use the stub tunnels already at the existing north Sydney station
I think a light rail line from the northern beaches to North Sydney, would be much cheaper and still quite effective as a feeder line for metro and trains.maybe even reviving the old tram route that used to go to the Underground at Wynard.
In theory, it’s a great idea, but didn’t they have a lot of trouble obtaining the climbing ability of the metro trains and given the heights of Mosman and Seaforth and having to go under the split bridge it seems almost more like a roller coaster ride than a metro
If the station depths are adjusted accordingly it shouldn't be a massive issue?
@@GroovyCommuting man it's like 220m elevation
@@Jean-claudeBranch hmm wonder what the depth and elevation of the current metro tunnel considering how deep Sydney Harbour is and how high north Sydney is…. Compared to the valley between Mosman and seaforth and that water on the spit bridge….
That why I honestly suggested ditching the idea of something though the spit and divert it via the forest area to Chatswood or crows nest, yeah elevation is also bad there but I think it’s an easier workaround and probs would be more closer to Sydney Harbour depth or 2 tunnels can be built with a bridge next to Roseville bridge.
@@GazzOak69 I'm sure you are right, and of course as we are solving Sydney's transport problems the bigger issue is the insular peninsula doesn't want public transport. I think in Covid they were considering blocking the Rosevile bridge! and putting the spit bridge up.
Epping to chatswood goes under rivers
Definitely yes. From North Sydney to Neutral Bay, Cremorne and Mosman with a new bridge over middle harbour at the spit to Balgowlah and Manly. Then up the coast to Dee Why and around through Frenchs Forest to Chatswood.
I do agree Chatswood and Dee Why needs better connectivity!
One of the main points of Metro is no branches. It must be a loop or single (two way) line. This is what enables the level of safety, frequency and automation of the Metro. Simple solution though build a new transfer station where you propose the branch and leave the tunnel headers open for future westward expansion, either under the harbour to Balmain parallel to the under construction western harbour road tunnel, or sticking to the north side of the harbour through Greenwich, longueville, Gladesville, Ryde, etc.
I’ve heard that the steep topography could be an issue getting from spit jnc to the northern beaches with a train line, although I’m not sure why considering we were able to tunnel under the harbour for the existing metro. If it is indeed a problem though, perhaps a small tunnel for busses from a new, wider spit bridge connecting to the warringah expressway could be an alternative for the northern beaches. I absolutely prefer the metro option though.
I have an idea. Mona Vale to Cronulla via Manly, Bondi, Maroubra, etc. A true beaches link connecting to all other lines/etc. Then we can say it’s an easy city to explore and commute within.
Then 4 million people from far west can go to the beaches on train. Probably cronulla riot of 2005 will occur every year.
The government is now building sand beaches in the west along the river and lake instead.
Those who have nobbled the Northern Beaches Railways metro or otherwise are now getting old, thankfully. They were miffed when the local Police Crime Command Superintendent called their bluff about rail bringing criminals into the area. He unfortunately was unable to embarrass the Mosman and Pittwater branches of the Liberal Party into abandoning their bias, despite Mike Baird being Premier at the time. Too many people with their adulthood invested in their driver's licences. Bring on a metro line but extend it to Mona Vale or even Avalon.
Great idea. Bring it on.
Having the metro run parallel with the North Shore Line from Chatswood to North Sydney was the silliest thing we did . The metro should have looped towards Mosman,.
Having a metro to bus junction at Mosman or Neutral Bay would have done well.
An excellent, well constructed and lucid introductory clip. Some comments include:
- There's no doubt about road congestion in the area.
- I don't 'like' subsidised services of any kind for affluent areas, but there is a case for investing in public transport to counter-balance public costs of the existing arrangements.
- Considered as an investment, you will get a better and wider return from Western Sydney (a 'new money' economy focussed on productivity from competitive goods and services - something we really need) than from the Northern Shore and Beaches (an 'old money' economy, focussed on rent-seeking activity and shoving assets around without them actually doing much).
- Creating a branch of the NW section of the M1 Metro is not really doable from an engineering perspective - even if doable, splitting metros is possible, but hardly ideal.
For discussion purposes:
- Option 1 is to use the North Sydney station stub tunnels as the beginning of an underground Northern Beaches line (which is what they were intended for originally). Probably running out along the B-Line route with stations at similar locations to its limited stops. Cross-platform exchange with North Shore services is one possibility, another is re-establishing tracks along the eastern side of the Harbour Bridge into old Wynyard 1 and 2 (is that still possible??) or onto above Circular Quay station.
- Option 2 is to use surface light rail from North Sydney along the B-line route. Probably the most disruptive option and least likely to make a positive improvement; but maybe cheaper, and modern low floor trams can be made look nice, and can improve the quality of coffee along the route.
- Option 3 (out of left field, only ever suggested by myself and IIRC R M Transit) is to extend the Eastern Suburbs line (or a new line from the Eastern Side of the City), across under the heads then up the coast. An amusing variation is that it might run only from Double Bay to Whale Beach, so users could ride its entire length without ever having to meet anyone unlike themselves.
- Option 4 - Maintain the status quo.
Different options for the link include:
- Surface light metro (see above)
- Sydney Trains heavy rail underground - probably challenged by the ascents and descents along the route (like top of Mosman down to and under The Spit), - perhaps is an overkill in capacity, with train lengths necessitating larger and more expensive infrastructure.
- Sydney Metro rail, similar to M1 (driverless - similar issues to heavy rail)
- Light Metro rail, similar to Western Sydney Airport Metro - maybe better matched to probable capacity requirements in a low to medium density route - better able to deal with gradients - more compact and cheaper to build but still with good capacity.
- Stadtbahn or Tramtrains (nothing like it in Oz) but common overseas - A train made up of high floor trams running like an underground metro but cheaper - Probably better matched to demand and quite able to deal with gradients, and negotiate tight turns getting from North Sydney across the bridge - Would be hated by 'standardisation' advocates. Possibly not elegant enough for Northern Beaches expectation, but convertible to metro relatively easy when needed.
It needs a group with a combined knowledge of transit systems, geological surveys, transit economics, and access to relevant data to determinate likely ridership, capacity needs, infrastructure, and best route. From that you could probably derive the most appropriate overall option.
I’d counter with:
- Sydney should have at least one metro construction in progress at any given time. Staring at you, NSW ALP.
- Never stop planning & building metro.
- Then it’s just a case of choosing Who Next
- Then I’d point out the areas who are asking loudly for more public transport - north-west Hills used to be it - and I think Oran Park and joining Bradfield to Macarthur or Leppington or both, is next
- Then you’ve got Tallawong to St Marys
- Then you’ve got Carlingford to Epping, but the BIGGEST need is in thr Victoria Road corridor.
I also believe it would be far more popular.
The “Anzac” metro corridor was sadly cancelled and overlooked in the last two political supercycles, nearly getting made and definitely getting reviewed.
Drummoyne is a congested hub that doesn’t even have a hope of relief, and I’m comparing them to Rozelle who could have 80% of the lanes shut and removed tomorrow. WHAT IS WRONG WITH THE GOVERNMENT, just close Victoria Road Rozelle will you?? Why does it even carry the “A40” sign, eff eff ess.
But the corridor from the city to Parramatta via Gladesville should really be rail. Preferably subway under Victoria Road but I guess a really large LRT like George St might be okay.
The residents there are already using buses that aren’t as good as B-Line, and there’s no proposals for a road tunnel. So they need a metro.
@@whophd That all assumes we have the means to do it. That requires a level of general productivity that we increasingly no longer have. That needs to be worked on as a prerequisite.
@@whophd I came up with an idea of a secondary line (which rips off the anzac line idea). So metro start in castle hill sharing with nwrl and (connect to M1 if current M1 have issues, so its can go up to tallawong or further if extended), goes to north rocks, carlingford, eastwood or denistone, west ryde, top ryde, gladesville, both north and south drumyone (one to serve the main shops and another to serve berko point), balmain or rozelle and connect on to west metro at the bays.
Really interesting points, I’d just like to add some of my own:
This is somewhat tangential however not everyone in the area is rich, there are a lot of apartments in Dee Why and the Northern beaches aren’t really much wealthier than most of Sydney, apart from beachside suburbs, they just have less white people. Even the majority of people who live in Mosman live in apartments. However these people would benefit most from public transport links.
And when we talk about the options like light rail, train or bus lines I don’t think any would actually be that practical. The B-line had a very high budget and I think is a great substitute to a light rail which you pointed out, and the services are frequent and convenient. A tram line along the same route would offer not much benefit. Disregarding how a tram line would cross across the Harbour Bridge it’d also need to somehow traverse the mess that is Military Road and no doubt a tunnel or bridge would be required over the Spit. I genuinely think the B-line is akin to what this would look like.
It really just boils down to the current issue - it’s hard to get past military road and do all of that nonsense. But really the geography, cost of land acquisition and existing infrastructure poses a huge problem already. I think the best option would be the tunnel link, which I’m not sure is happening (you can correct me), from the Northbridge area to I believe Seaforth, which would alleviate a lot of traffic flowing through the bridge.
You also have to consider the fact that the LNS and some suburbs in the Northern Beaches (excluding ones like French’s forest, Dee Why, Cromer etc.) are predicted to be very, very low growth since they are already quite dense (Mosman I believe is only building 500 ‘affordable’ housing units in the development programme?), so would it be worth it? Not quite sure. Additional B-line services, a connection not through the Spit seem to be the best options.
@@sedergfff7155 Thanks for that interesting reply. I'm not entirely convinced the area's affluence is similar to the West. I live in a seriously nice area, but a good 2 bedroom flat here is currently going for about $500-550K. However, I read an interesting article years ago that suggested the big difference is more what people spend their money on. It accepted the West has less wealth but was trying to understand why it sometimes has greater liquidity.
The geography is a real killer in your area and high capacity public transport of any sort is likely to be resisted, similar to how it has been in Bondi and Woollahra. Good luck with it all.
The big revolution in the West is to develop it as a separate city from Harbour Sydney, so eventually only a precious few need to commute to the 'East End' at all. It is already a good way towards that (though often not recognised as such) and WSI Airport will further catalyse the effect. Perhaps something similar can also be fostered across the North.
I don’t know how well branch lines work on automated metros because of merging traffic when you have services running frequently. I suppose it should be possible but not ideal as it introduces switching. None of the current or planned metros have branches do they?
None that will branch in a merge, but require the passenger to alight and get on another train. I suppose it depends whether a commuter would find it more efficient to change lines at a terminus rather than stay on the train to merge onto another line. The idea is based on increasing the capacity/reducing waiting times on the remainder of that line (the busier cbd stations). Vancouver's automated skytrain system is an example of using the branch line system successfully.
@@GroovyCommuting I'd be a bit cautious about comparisons with the awesome Vancouver Skytrain. It has places where two lines share some stations, and a minor spur serving the airport. All its junctions are grade separated (no crossings between opposite direction tracks). It has nothing like two extensive branches joining to feed into a single line, which has been designed only for one of those feeder branches.
Extend Illawarra line from Bondi Junction to Mona Vale.
New Metro from Dee Why to new Airport with interchanges at Chatswood Eastwood & Parramatta
While I support the Northern beaches Metro concept, the branchline concept is a step backwards on a number of fronts. While it does give some advantages such as ensuring there would be an alternate route through the CBD and across the harbour should there be an incident impacting train Chatswood way and beyond, that's about it. Reduced construction cost is incorrect because you would need to use specialised underground construction methods on the existing portion of the line with many months of trackwork to incorporate the changes that weren't originally designed into the construction. Similar to how Melbourne has built an underground cavern for their new railway. It also means that we are tangling the web of railway lines again which is the mistake we made 50+ years ago with the heavy rail network. Part of the reason the London Underground works so well is that most of the lines are separate tracks. That means a delay on one line doesn't impact the others. Whereas in Sydney, unfortunately a delay on one rail line in Sydney delays all others because they share tracks. The purpose of metro was to add capacity without adding congestion, which I believe it has achieved.
The better concept in my opinion would be a through running line either through connecting to the existing line or through the CBD. I'll put a few options below.
Option 1 and the cheapest option would be to make the line interchange at say Crows Nest station and then continue west towards Gladesville, then Meadow Bank interchange, then Telopea interchange with Light rail, then north of parramatta before then turning north towards the hills district. This would serve 3 functions, 1. Hills to Parramatta link, 2. North of Parramatta River to North Sydney link, and 3 Northern beaches link. These three communities/areas generally wouldn't interact and travel between each other, but would travel to interchanges at North Parramatta and Crows Nest, hopefully combatting the Northern beaches superiority complex of OTHER come to MY BEACH.
Option 2 would be a norther beaches link with YET ANOTHER harbour crossing separate to the existing harbour crossing. Then there's be sub options. Option 2a would be to have the line run through the CBD and then convert 2 of the existing Illawarra tracks from St. Peters to Hurstville, before going underground at Hurstville again to Sutherland and then converting the Sutherland to Cronulla branchline to metro. Option 2b would be a completely new rail line south of Sydney, possibly still towards Hurstville and Sutherland or instead toward the airport and botany.
That's my thoughts. Otherwise great video. Thanks for the content.
The fact they change lanes to 1/2 or 3 is crazy and isn’t smart. But Military Road is basically The Warringah Freeway but with traffic lights
I waited 40 minutes for a bus to manly from Miller St North Sydney yesterday as it kept getting delayed despite no traffic whatsoever
I worked on some of the C&SW Metro Project; there is no way to branch the existing Metro line now because they made the decision not to dig stub tunnels for a Beaches extension at Victoria Cross despite planning for it initially. Branching from Chatswood may be more doable because it is above ground, but TfNSW is very much against Metro having any branching. I dont think we want the Beaches Line to be a branch either, internal Metro modelling shows the Beaches Line would have more ridership than either Metro West or Metro NW+C&SW.
I think the way to convince people on the Beaches to accept a rail line is to give them a direct connection to the Airport Line. Modelling for the C&SW Metro Project showed that the strongest alternative for conversion to Metro after the Bankstown Line was to convert the Airport line to Revesby. I have suggested before they should go ahead and convert the Airport Line to a Metro with Phase 1 terminating at Central, then dig a new tunnel Extension under the CBD and either across the eastern side of the Harbour Bridge or underneath the harbour up the Beaches.
Another alternative is to convert the North Shore Line to Metro and branch from North Sydney, but you will probably have to wait until High Speed Rail to Newcastle takes away all the Central Coast trains. I had also privately wondered if the new high speed rail to Newcastle shouldnt just tunnel all the way to Gosford and have a station on the Beaches at Mona Vale or Dee Why, and then just run light rail along Pittwater Road feeding the HSR stop. There are a lot of possibilities.
So many possibilities! Thanks for sharing. The branch from Victoria Cross was to create better connectivity to Chatswood and the North Shore. As it stands now, the bus connections between both are pretty underwhelming.
I feel the bay in between central coast and northern beaches is super deep (probs twice or triple the depth of sydney harbor)
But i do like the idea of your convert airport section from revesby to somewhere in northern beaches, i donno what extra stations are needed between green square and lets say northern sydney without duplicating though other stations.
@@GazzOak69 you would definitely want a connection at Central because the existing Airport Tunnels end there anyway, then I think the last reserved Tunnel route under the CBD which still remains is underneath Sussex Street which would be good to have a station near Town Hall on the Western side of the City. You possibly dont even need any more CBD stations than that, they are super expensive and difficult to construct and slow suburban journeys down. Other alternative is to stick to the Western edge of the CBD. Ideally you need an interchange with Metro West so If Metro West doesnt go to Green Square or Central it could be awkward.
EDIT: It *might* be possible to connect somehow onto the Harbour Bridge but the problem is when they did the infrastructure assessment for the C&SW Metro they decided the Bridge isnt capable of running more than 26 trains per hour whereas the new harbour metro tunnel crossing is capable of running 30-36 trains per hour or even more.
"light rail along pittwater road" is actually insane
For the situation between dee why and netural bay/mosman...... I don't think tunneling though the spit would be practical at all (and that why i suggested the via frenches forest forest route). But I could suggest an light rail between north sydney and taronga zoo (that if northern beaches road tunnel get revived again).
And I think northern beaches needs both a road and rail tunnel and solution.
The 100 is a very frequent bus service I doubt we’d need a light rail between n Sydney and taronga
@@sedergfff7155 hmm I seen the 100, bit like a Mosman variant of the m40 prior to the 100. Its seem to match up to m40 timetable…. I guess it’s can handle things for a long time to come.
I think Mosman is tedious to connect to sydney easily…
Northern Beaches Line should follow your route to Der Why but then continue along the Warringah Rd corridor with stops at Beacon Hill, French Forest, Forestville, Willoughby and then join back to the NW Metro st Chatswood.
@@zaarpoool Great idea!
Any Northern Beaches Metro needs to think outside the box.
UTS Lane Cove - Chatswood - French's Forest - Brookvale - Dee Why Metro - Narrabeen - Mona Vale - Newport - Avalon - Palm Beach - Umina Beach - Woy Woy Station - Kariong- Somersby. Open up massive development opportunities at the empty places and link them to desirable destinations, simultaneously serving desirable locations connecting them to the wider rail network - if not directly to the current CBD.
At the same time, acknowledge that one line can't serve everyone everywhere, so build a 2nd line simultaneously. St Mary's Metro- Llandilo - Marsden Park - Schofields Station - Rouse Hill Metro - Dural- Hornsby Station - Belrose - Dee Why Metro - Curl Curl - Manly - Watson's Bay- Bondi Beach - Bondi Junction Station - Moore Park - Waterloo Metro - USyd - The Bays Metro - Balmain - Cockatoo Island - Hunter's Hill- Riverview - UTS Lane Cove. And would you look at that? Maybe one line will do after all.
Providing odd links by rail that aren't replicated by road makes public transport more interesting. Like Como to Oatley.Or Rhodes to Meadowbank. Connecting communities (new or existing) while keeping them distinct and a little more unique.
That would bring too much crime from Mount Druitt by the sea.
@@DJ99777 Mount Druitt isn't cheap anymore. And with Metro services, it'd be too tempting to bulldoze everything and rebuild gentrified.
Hear me out:
Victoria cross
Neutral Bay
Mosman (near junction)
Seaforth
Balgowlah
Brookvale
Dee why
Narrabeen
Warriewood
Monavale
Bayview
(With a new ferry terminus to the central coast that could be on the opal network unlike the current palm beach ones)
You can’t. It’s too late. You would probably have to close the metro between Barangaroo and Chatswood for at least a year to connect the tunnel.
The structural integrity of a tunnel made with a TBM relies on the pressure from the surrounding earth.
Metro would be from Chatswood to Dee Why via Brookvale and French's Forest. Challenges of geography of course abound, however, it's Sydney
Also B-line at the moment is an upgrade, but i think its should have full clearway at all hours on its route (but on the overall scheme, i find spit rd horrible)
No bus service will ever be better than a train line.
@@kennylee8936 that’s true, but at least for the time being until they can work though a ideal metro line, some simple upgrades which won’t cost a cent and a few months to implement.
@@GazzOak69 Unless if these buses get an uninterrupted road the whole way, able to travel up to 100km/h in between stops, come every 2mins, and have a prospect to build a second route from Dee Why to Chatswood...then there's no way in hell a bus would ever be good enough compared to a train.
Also, as long as the NB only has buses and no faster way to move around...buses will continue to be slow because too many people are car dependant.
I'd like to think people understand this concept but the beaches just has no other option.
So...unless if the NB gets a train line...they will ALWAYS have traffic problems.
@@kennylee8936 I’d argue NIMBY has to be dealt with first before anything drastic can happen, and sadly I may not be able to live long enough to see it happening with my own eyes. So for now uninterrupted bus lane is probably the cheapest option available.
@@estellebright2579 The silent majority (people who want the train line)...need a voice...they're already fed up with the traffic...they need someone whom they can believe can silence the NIMBYs once and for all. Money can't buy you silence forever and that's all the NIMBYS have.
If the metro idea doesn't get traction or still gets crowded maybe a light rail but that still would be a hard sell and would require lane reduction on those roads plus on the harbour bridge and require a city terminus. I recon the light rail could have branches to taronga zoo and manly. Potentially chatswood and Willoughby
Too slow, too congested, and the corridor is too constrained unfortunately. The Beaches corridor will be the highest-ridership rail line left in the city if done properly, it really needs to be tunnelled and have that fast speed to be effective
The area had trams to many destinations until the 1950s. A shame they didn't keep them, but yes the roads are too congested now to put a new one in. Tunnelling is really the only option.
@@GroovyCommutingI disagree, it’s not too congested - the line went from Narrabeen to Manly and it was mostly on the wide open 6-lane road that was only 2 lanes then.
The Spit Bridge is ridiculous though. It should be bus and cycle only, and keep the whole of Military Road for locals. If you want to drive across middle harbour, pay for the luxury tunnel option. Or take a tram to Manly, sure.
@@alexandersmith7777 I think light rail would only be good for inner northern beaches trips…. Or at least from north Sydney to the zoo…
There are two other options, in many ways both better optimised for that sort of area. They are Light Metro (the forthcoming WSI Airport metro is at the 'high end' of light metro, and the first to be implemented in Australia) and StadtBahn or City Trains (coupled high floor trams behaving like a train - less 'fancy' but agile and less expensive, with the ability to easily convert to a true metro later on - not currently in use in Australia). The Canadian transport vlogger, 'RM Transit' has excellent clips about both.
metro west coming all the way into hunter street seems a missed opportunity not to continue out toward cremorne/mosman etc from there, rather than opening a can of worms with the existing city metro. gives hunter street more of a point to existing also being a through station.
actually looking at a map of metro west, it almost looks like the plan is to hook hunter street up to kings cross, and ultimately bondi jct - i wonder if their longer term plan is to convert the eastern suburbs line to metro? interesting.
@@karlcx No, it was to go to Zetland, not KX
@@yesand5536 oh? According to what plan?
@@karlcx The government plans have already leaked, and Metro West to Zetland has been locked in for a long time.
The primary purpose of Metro West is to support the 'three cities' concept by connecting their centres together, namely the Eastern Harbour City (Hunter St), the Central River City (centred on Parramatta - by 2032), and the Western Parkland City, (pivoted on the WSI Airport/Aerotropolis - by 2050?). While doing that it will also service enroute suburbs, with a possible/probable eastern extension to Zetland + 1 (2042?)
Something to keep in mind. It's not all about ridership, but the broader return on investment. And Western Sydney wins that one. It's already more populated than the rest of greater Sydney, is growing faster and has a work ethic that is optimised for creating new wealth through hard industry. It's the third biggest industrial area in the country. In contrast the East End of Sydney has systematically devolved all but its soft industries like harbour views, finance and tourism. For example it once had a true working harbour, but all that remains now is mostly a pleasure lake and a venue for events.
Not that Western Sydney will compete with the East End of Sydney so much as with Brisbane, Melbourne, Auckland and Adelaide, for a share of a new economy emerging in the wake of a post-globalised and less benign world. Sydney's East-Enders won't compete with the West either, as it involves working up a sweat and getting their hands dirty. But it will probably be smart enough to invest in the West.
Definitely
I think if a general survey were to be done in the beaches...most people would approve of it...I Don't buy the idea of the beaches not wanting it and at the same time, being okay with congestion.
To any beaches locals here...if Natalie Ward (I believe a beaches resident herself), if voted it...reckon she would do anything about it?
I doubt this is true. Do you live here?
@@whophd No I don't but the people I've met from the beaches said that they're fed up with buses and wish for a train line.
But overall...I think it's ridiculous that people would mindlessly put up with traffic because they don't want a train line.
Like NB people would have to be a different breed of stupid if they think the state of their infrastructure is good.
The people in the northern beaches don't want public transport, So they can get stuffed.
This one does!
That's a HUGE misconception...the northern beaches local government are corrupt individuals who cater for the small minority and don't care for the majority...I doubt people are buying the B Line as an adequate transportation for the area.
@@GroovyCommuting As a northern beaches local who has really enjoyed the new city Metro stations (and I was there at 4:50am for the first train), I have to point out how underrated the B-Line is.
Do you know what never closes on the weekends for trackwork? The B-Line!
If I’m driving next to a B-Line and it stops to pick up passengers, it ALWAYS overtakes me by the next stop. I have NEVER been able to drive faster than a B-Line bus, in heavy traffic or light traffic.
Do you think all the express buses are the same? NO. It’s a bit weird and mysterious even. But the B-Line has different drivers or more powerful engines or different traffic phasing - or all of the above and something else? Choosing any other express bus never works to beat the B-Line.
@@whophd I think bline is not bad but its could be a ton useful if parking is removed along the route and spit bridge opening is restricted at 5am then 9pm at night on weekdays and 6am, 8am, 6pm and 9pm for weekends.
That’s why northern beaches have expensive parking fees. Such a shame. People cannot enjoy this city without getting fleeced.
YEAAAHHHHHHHH!!!🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉
Need, yes. Want, no.
Yeah it’s just weird to oppose improving public transport infrastructure. It’s almost like some sort of nostalgia of the long past, when there were far fewer cars?
@@estellebright2579 nope, because making it more accessible will just make it even busier and move the problem further down the line
We moved from the northern beaches to a more convenient location because of the horrific traffic and poor public transport there. Nice place to live if you never have to leave your house.
@@lowend5566 Very true!
Good luck getting anything built in Seaforth, lot of money plus NIMBY in that area.
Barangaroo to Manly in 10 minutes?
NIMBYs say NO!
NIMBYs days are numbered...they won't be relevant soon.
You can get from circular quay to manly in like 15? A ferry is probably faster than a train or bus line…
I 100% agree, but those arrogant grumpy old retirees in the northern beaches are too stubborn to see the bigger picture!
yes
lost opportunity to take North west Metro from Chatswood to Dee Why and Mosman
People in the Northern Beaches will never accept a metro because it means upzoning the entire region. NSW is better of creating some light rail or interurban line to feed into the existing metro
Yet we are seeing suburbs like Neutral Bay and Dee Why being up-zoned without the transport foresight to accommodate extra residents 😢
Northern beaches will need to share the load of the population..... if you don't want things, move out of sydney....
I think you're thinking of a loud minority who thing they speak for the whole Northern Beaches, these are people who probably never leave home and witness the congestion.
@@kennylee8936 a loud, wealthy, and old minority who never need to work again or commute, thus having plenty of time to enjoy traffic or not traveling outside their suburbs much at all.
If one day we have high speed rail from Sydney central station to Newcastle, there will have a chance that the train can be extended to NB.
Why do so many Aussies say “mili-tare-re now”? It’s so American. We say “mili-tree” in Australia.
I lived in Canada for 7 years and my partner is also Canadian, some words and pronunciations have stuck.
It’s a no-brainer.
why have the northern beaches opposed to a trains
Well the pretentious wankers who live there believe it will bring too many un desirables to the area, which will in turn deflate their property value. This is the only way they can measure their self-worth as a human.
Because they’re all entitled rich bums and they protest whenever a train line is proposed because they don’t want to attract “poor people” from the rest of Sydney to “their” beaches
I think most people aren't, but the politicians are afraid to take the idea to elections for fear of backlash from NIMBYs
If you asked typical beaches people...they would be all in favour of it. People who oppose it have no idea of the congestion on Pittwater road/Warringah road/spit bridge.
They want their walled garden not infiltrated by the "undesirables" from the rest of Sydney, much like how Bondi went to war over an extension of the T4 to the beach itself.
nah yeah!
NIMBY, NIMBY, NIMBY, NIMBY.
nb is already packed to the point where essentially all farmland has been bought up by developers bar some parts in Ingleside. Adding transit infrastructure like a metro would overwhelm the little above ground infrastructure they currently have. Like cool, now you have another 10,000 people in dy... what's next
like even a metro is just moving a problem further down the line, the more you make the area moveable/transportable, the more people will come and the busier it'll get and then you're back at square one. because it's such a nice area it's literally always going to be busy, and you can only really move around where it's going to be busy
The current Labor Government, in an act of political bastardry, has withdrawn funding of the badly needed Mona Vale Road upgrade. The half completed works are now abandoned. And the old existing road is crumbling through a lack of maintenance. There is no way the government is going to spend serious money on a rail line.
Honestly it's hilarious
Branch line from Chatswood through to Frenchs Forest, Dee Why Narrabeen, Mona Vale. That will take pressure off Military Road.
The metro to northern beaches will never happen due to small population. Dee Why only have 24000 residents. The seaforth only have 7500 residents. The whole mosman only have 30000 residents. How many % of the total population there need to go out at the peak hours for work? Probably less than 20%.
There is no business cases for such construction unless government can justify the cost by introducing the high rise apartments, and increase the population by 300% and make the housing more affordable.
Then you know where the NIBYS comes from. Billion dollars construction does not make sense as northern beaches lead to no where, unless NSW government planned to build a large satellite city between Sydney and Newcastle. The metro to northern beaches thus have no business incentive if no large property development projects are available.
finally someone with some common sense
The Northern Beaches LGA (local government area) is the third most populated LGA in the entire city - behind only Canterbury/Bankstown and Blacktown, and above Paramatta and Sutherland.
The number of employed people and commuting rates on the Northern Beaches are similar to out west with around 44% working from home, 32-35% going by car and 4-7% going by public transport. The idea there's less demand is incorrect.
There's certainly a business case for higher-density development with apartments, but it's all about placement.
Dee Why is the prime test cast for this - it is already 75% high-density apartments and 10% medium density dwellings - just 15% are standalone houses. That's one of the highest rates for apartment buildings in the country. 24,000 people in the suburb doesn't sound like much, but that's over just 3 sq. km - its actual population density is on par with Coogee.
Certainly, commercial areas like Balgowlah, Brookvale, Narrabeen and Mona Vale could easily replace plenty of their empty shop fronts and worn-down infrastructure with major new apartment and entertainment complexes.
The Beaches Link tunnel will be so much cheaper, quicker, and deliver much greater bang for buck economic impact than a full metro line up the Northern Beaches. It will also stir up a lot less resistance from the Nimbys.
Build the Link first, then think about Metro.
The political situation, is that Labor, wouldn’t support a line, into conservative territory, some kind of deal with teals and Labor federal and state governments would be necessary. But given that, clean disruption money, could flow towards such a line, under conservative rule state and federal, the clean disruption money, wouldn’t flow, as easily. China has been very successful, with clean disruption, but has real estate problems, some kind of a deal, for Metro and high speed rail lines, in exchange, for iron ore and metallurgic coal, is possible.
The same sort of deal, with India, is possible, their clean disruption and Metro expansion, is very rapid, I think the airport and west Metro trains are Indian. Indian tunnelling equipment, station construction materials and even workers, could do the job, much more cheaply, than we could do the job ourselves, but we’d have to accept guest workers.
As a northern beaches joe, i will share my 2 cents (or more than that).
Have a loop line between hurstville and northern beaches (its will start in Hurstville, follow the A3 road (probs be more eastwards)
- kingsgrove (interchange with T8),
- clemton park (probs near canterbury hospital)
- campsie (interchange with M1)
- enfield
- stratty (its will interchange but probs be a little separated from actual stratty station)
- DFO
- sydney olympic park (interchange with west metro and parra light rail)
- wentworth point
- top ryde
- macquarie park (interchange with M1)
- gordon
- st ives
- terry hills
- mona vale
- warriewood
- (maybe a station in narraben, but due to marsh and narrabeen lake between warriewood and dee why, its would very hard to do an underground stations, unless if is can be above ground),
- dee why
- northern beaches hospital or frenches forest
- forestville
- willoughby (i thought of chatswood, but willoughby needs something),
- RNS
- crows nest
Then after all these stations to merge and ether duplicate or share with M1 till sydenham, or have a separate line, donno what stations should be done) then finally serve the T4 stations between sydneham and hurstville for a loop and its will leave T4 to be all express between hurstville and sydenham.
If government didn't fuck around with M1 and western sydney airport line by differentiating the gauges then the M1 should become a another loop line with sydney having 2 crossed loop lines, i know of bejing having 2 loop lines but they don't meet each other, donno what other cities have 2 loop lines.
I also think with the current western sydney metro, i think we can get rid of the olympic line spur altogether as long as the parra tram get extended to lidcombe rather than terminate in olympic park.
I live in Dee Why and commute to Barangaroo, also a big fan of mass rapid transit. But I don't see this idea ever happening. Simple Reason - There is no business case.
Some things I don't see addressed in the video:
Victoria Cross was not designed to have a branch line.
Are you expecting the NB line to terminate at Victoria Cross, or continue into the city? If so, then that means you are reducing services on the existing line.
Where would you insert the TBMs?
What patronage are you expecting to make a return on investment?
What buildings do you want demolished to make way for stations?
TBM's require consistent hard rock to drill through. The NB has multiple inconsistencies, plus bodies of water above it dont help. Look at the Snowy 2.0 tunnel kerfuffle.
NB population growth is one of the lowest in Sydney (It is not highly populated). What other more in demand public transport services are you sacrificing to build this. The hunter/central coast region which is car dependant will have triple the population.
The NB barely makes up 5% of Sydney's population in 20 years, what makes the residents of NB so special that they deserve more tax payer money being spent on them?
There’s nothing “band aid” about the Beaches Link if you shut Military Road and turn it back into a local road that it used to be. Why is nobody advocating this for Victoria Road and Parramatta Road? WE HAVE ALL THESE STROADS so shut them!
I find it ridiculous fhat urbanists are against toll roads. Either you want to discourage driving, or you don’t.
While we are at it, might as well shut down all existing bus services to the region and turn the entire suburb into public transport free region so locals can enjoy themselves better I guess.
The beaches link tunnel wasn't the solution to traffic woes.
The Metro is showing the city how revolutionary it is.
The Liberals had some great ideas and bone headed ones for sure!
@@RoboP I feel both road and metro tunnel would both be needed. Metro at first and then road down the line.
@whophd thank God someone else gets it. The Beaches Link tunnel has incredible potential to make a gigantically positive impact for people all the way up the Northern Beaches and indeed the North Shore itself.
Keep Northern Beaches hard to reach. Keep the peace! Keep the culture!
It will bring more crime.
As an Nepalese immigrant residing in Strathfield, Sydney for seven years, I have concerns regarding the potential impact of expanded train connectivity from the northern beaches to western Sydney or across the harbour bridge on the area's cultural identity. The northern beaches presently exemplify quintessential Australian charm, which may be compromised by an influx of immigrants. Considering Australia has provided numerous opportunities for economic prosperity and a better life, I believe it is essential to preserve the area's character as a gesture of reciprocity.
The current public transport is alright with increasing numbers of buses in future in my opinion
The 2005 cronulla riot was the policy turning point. Cronulla beach is the only beach that have train access in Sydney. The consideration is not just from the NIMBYS. No one wants to open a can of worms in mosman and northern beaches like cronulla.
I like how you say the quiet part out loud. You don't want non-white people on "your" beaches
as someone from the Northern Beaches we don't want poor people from the Western Suburbs turning our suburbs into refugee camps. we don't want public transport
Refugee camps?
Ok maybe petition the government to remove existing bus services to northern beaches so they can be repurposed to other congested part of Sydney. 🙃
@@seanelias6478 aka poor people.
Happy 95th birthday Nick!
Ha, Ha. One of my staff a few years back was from the Northern Beaches, and was transferred out to our facility in the western suburbs. He was genuinely scared of the prospect of having to work in the area, expected it to be violent crime ridden, and took a lot of convincing to even use the local shopping centre to get lunch.
It only took a few weeks for him to notice some positive peculiarities of the west. First was how the local people at our facility were so pragmatic and enthusiastic about getting projects done. Far less fuss than he was accustomed to. They might have looked like a Viking raiding party, but could easily be given general instructions from which they would develop the details, and check to ensure they weren't at cross purposes to anyone else. No micro-management needed nor wanted, and with an excellent evidence-based safety culture. The big shock to him however, were the young staff at the local shopping centre. He couldn't get over over how genuinely respectful and courteous they were.
The diversity perplexed him a bit though. Sure there was a diversity of ethnicity where he lived, but they were all already successful and accomplished people. They were all in the same golf club, and their kids went to the same private schools. Out west however, he met the real and recent migrants, still coming to grips with a new culture and cost of living. Yet the older hands (many of whom had, or their parents had, been through a similar experience) were so genuinely helpful and welcoming to them. And not because it was 'company policy', but simply because they intuitively grasped it was the right and fair thing to do. I've lived in places like Vaucluse, Manly and Narrabeen as well as in the West, but the latter wins hands down for authenticity.