How To Expose Canon Log (CLog) on Canon Cinema Cameras YouTube Live Replay
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- Опубліковано 7 бер 2018
- How To Expose CLog on Canon Cinema Cameras UA-cam Live Replay
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I've been getting a lot of questions about how to match CLog from the 5D Mark IV to the C200 or C300 Mark II or other Canon cameras like matching the 1DX Mark II to the C200 or the 5D Mark IV.
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One step that would help with understanding would be to show you apply the LUTin post. That would allow us to see how the LUT interacted with the footage. Great example. Thanks for all the valuable information.
Carlos, the Line + Spot feature.... THANK YOU. I am a run and gunner because I shoot weddings with the C200. Reading the waveform in this new setting is a game changer. I can put the red box right onto my subjects face for perfect exposure. YOU THE MAN!
+Dimitri H 👊🏽🙏🏽👍🏽🎥
Just ran across your video. That Line+Spot tip for the WFM is killer. I didn't realize that was there and always zoom with the lens or my feet. Thanks!
👊🏽👍🏽🙏🏽
So very helpful!
Well that was just awesome. Answered some questions I had on how to properly do it in my C300MKII. Thanks Carlos!
Thanks Alan!
what luts are you using for clog 2 to rec709 for your c300markii ?
Hi, very usefull and well explained! thanks for that!!
Thank you.
Thanks for sharing this! Well done!
Thank you, great tutorial of how to expose for Canon Log
Thank You 🙏🏽
What a legend
Nice video, good info!
Great job!
thanks
Thanks for this
Wow! This was such a different kind of tutorial! Thank u so much
Amazing, thanks a lot, can you also make one for 54Mark 4 how to expose.. love to see from you.
Thank you very much!
You're welcome!
Hola Carlos. Thanks for the tips.
+Ronald Moscoso hola 👊🏽👍🏽
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needy thanks
Great videos. Question, do you expose 18% grey in Canon Log to the same IRE value(34.3) on the Canon C100 Mkii as you do on the Canon C300 mkii?
yes
thanks for the video. I'm just a beginner and don't have a monitor (not yet at least). is there another way to estimate the exposure correctly with just the camera and the middle gray card?
really good video
Thanks!
great info! Looking at getting the Clog upgrade for my mkIV & your series has been very informative. I think that looking at your picture when correctly exposed for the Clog, it looks too dark so I guess I would tend to overexpose by a LOT (I expect this is a common problem....)
+Mark Kelly check out some of my other 5DM4 videos I use this exposure technique any time I am shooting in CLog this specific video the goal and focus was the chart and why it is exposed this way also it was a UA-cam Live while I was in a rush so don’t overexpose because of this video overexposing is generally a bad idea on canon cameras if you plan to use Canon LUTs
your series has great info !
thanks a lot
awesome, thank you.
Hi Carlos,
Thanks for this info. Just switched from Sony and I've received my C300 MK III a few days ago.
Quick questions:
- what is the difference between CLOG2 and CLOG3? In which case should I opt for one or the other?
- what are the recommended values for caucasian skintones? 70% should be a bit too much, no?
- what are the recommended values for black skintones?
Thanks!
Stéphane
It's very to use Clog, thanks.
Some really helpful things here, especially for the C200. But I'll have to say when I exposed Clog 3 at middle gray at 35 IRE and found a GREAT Canon LUT for it I got what I always get: NOISE...way too much noise. The LUT worked perfectly--but the noise made the C200 compete with the GH5--UGH!
If I shoot middle gray at 55%, make my exposure corrections in post and then add the LUT the image is a lot cleaner.
+William Ridenour ant chance you can share a couple of your clips at each IRE so that I can take a look? I don’t have a C200 (not yet).
They were just tests so I didn't save the clips. I know what Canon says about exposure---and I can see the rightness of it in some degree for high dynamic range outside shooting.
But I don't think it works well in a studio/interview situation where the problem is not highs being blown out, but the lows and lower mids being noisy. I think you're better off to just shoot rec. 709, expose it well, make your minor adjustments in post and publish.
I remember Shane Hurlbut talking about what a catastrophe shooting C-log at 34 IRE for middle gray--how much noise there was, and how he had to turn it over to a group in Hollywood who specialized in de-noising footage. As I recall he then gave some samples of exposing C-log to the right and how much cleaner it came out.
The temptation for me shooting in C-log 3 is how fantastic some of the Canon LUTS are for skin tone---awesome.
Today is pretty tight, but I'll try getting a comparison. But my guess is in-studio the better result will be by exposing C-log 3 slightly to the left.
I didn't know about the spot setting for waveforms--thanks for that. It was really helpful. Really hated to sell my C300 Mk II--but practically speaking the C200 is the more useful camera for what I do.
OK Thanks - I do remember Shane Hurlbut saying what he did, which when you compare his productions with 10 or matching cameras or cameras that have to match Alexas and so on...it makes even more sense. On my level of productions, I haven't found overexposing and bring it back in post to be the fastest and best when I want or intend on using Canon Provide LUTs which is what I was referencing in that video. But this is a sticky subject that gets a lot of attention. So I am going to make it a point to do a full ISO and CLog Preset Test that covers interiors and exteriors for those of us who shoot and mix Canon cameras. I'll make it a point to make the straight out of the camera files available for download too. This should get the cobwebs out of my head and give me a definitive answer for my style of shooting once and for all. I will say that when I venture off on my own speculation of how I should expose vs the recommended version by the camera manufacturer (Canon and RED since that is all that I own) I end up having to correct and grade manually which adds to my post workflow and generally cost me money. I now have access to a Cinema calibrated 4K DCI 65 inch OLED monitor and a 4K calibrated projector so it should be interesting.
Don't know if you're seen this---but it may apply?!?
ua-cam.com/video/W_iHhRmGqVQ/v-deo.html
I had seen that previously. It is definitely a good idea to know the breaking point of the camera. thanks
Thanks for the SPOT info. I'm still using the MKII and it still pays most of my mortgage!
Thanks for taking the time to put this video up. Am I correct in my understanding that shooting RAW on the C200 means that since it's always the C-LOG2 gamma curve, 18% grey should be exposed to 39.8%? Cheers
Yes TC, just make sure that you turn the LUT off when you are setting your middle gray value so that the scopes accurately represent CLog2 Cheers
Yep, thanks. I think I've got my workflow mostly sorted and your video helped put me on the right path. I was doing some HDR tests with the LG B7/Resolve, it looks pretty impressive. C200 does some great quality footage when everything's exposed properly.
Thank you for this video which makes things very clear. One question that never seems to be answered in these log videos is when you are out doing a documentary video on my own with run and gun filming is how I can expose C log as setting up a grey card etc would mean a lost shot? Is the difference between the cameras exposure and the grey card exposure normally fairy constant?
In that situation I personally rely on the ev meter and waveform to make sure I’m not crushing the dark areas or blowing out highlights. The codec gives you plenty of room to dial in the desired exposure in post.
In film photography, we call it substitution metering. The rule of thumb is Caucasian skin is aprox. two stops brighter than 18% gray, so maybe you could meter off a face or your hand in the shot lighting, (assuming Caucasian skin tone) get your reading then stop down two stops to lighten what would expose as 18% gray without the 2 stop compensation.
@@randyhendrickson4735 Thank you Randy.
Hi Carlos, did you see the video about the new firmware update of the C200? what do you think about it?
I did and am glad because having the camera's metadata in the file is helpful in post! It is interesting to me though that they don't make mention of that one little but important fact. Cheers!
So I take it then that if I wanted proper exposure in shooting C log but wanted to make sure my image had a particularly shallow depth of field, I would have to bump up the either the lighting on the subject or the ISO in order to compensate for the high f stop in exposing for C Log
This will definitely help me shoot better on the C100 Mark ii I ave access to.
That's awesome!
+Rumbani1 yes new videos on this topic this week
do you have a video like this for exposing slog 2 with sony A7R
This is a Replay video from today's UA-cam Live, the audio on the live stream was glitchy, I cut out some of the live to speed up the pacing. I hope some of you find this useful. If there is enough interest, I will make quick 2 minute videos on the content that I am covering in this video to allow for a single subject video. One more thing, I chose to do a UA-cam live vs a produced video due to time challenges with my production schedule, the alternative would have been to skip the upload today.
Would love some camera matching videos. We have the C200 and and 1DX Mark ii and its taken us so long to try and get them to match. So much so that we're having to stop using any type of flat profile on the 1DX. Seems to have a lot to do with white balance and colour tints (as well as lens choice!)
Yes, lens choice will play a significant role particularly with the tint shifts due to the lens coatings. Are you trying to match C200 RAW or CLog3 to the 1DX Mark II?
Carlos Quintero yes correct, we had the James Miller profile on the 1DX and that adds another shift in colour, lenses are usually the Sigma Art 18-35mm and Canon 24-105mm. These two are normally ok and it’s just contrast differences.
OK, I am going to work on this over the weekend and see if I may be able to help. I don't have the James Miller profile on my camera yet...anyway, I will try to help if I can.
Ah thank you! I think camera matching would be a good video for your views as I think lots of us are always shooting with whatever we can get our hands on. Thanks man
Have been running into incredible noise in my C200 footage in any ISO over 400, even in footage that seemed properly exposed using the grey card method. Any experience with mitigating this (besides using a noise reducing plug in, which to me is unacceptable as a normal part of color grading)?
Chris Milliman I have had the same problem. My best results come with low ISO’s so I gues I stilll need more info on this
After some experimentation I've found you can get better results in RAW LIght by overexposing a stop or two, if you have to shoot in higher ISO. Also, the mp4 format holds up really well in higher ISOs even if the image isn't quite a good.
Do you usually overexpose when shooting with C Log and adjusting ISO accordingly, or staying with 400 ISO and correct exposure?
I am one of the few people who chooses not to ever over expose period...not in CLog, not in REDCODE RAW, Not in LOG-C I just don't do it.
Hello Carlos to have the right expose for the skin on canon c200 what is the amount?
that is a bit of a tricky question because not all skintones should be exposed the same way. For example, my skin is more accurately represented when I am exposed at 50-55 IRE where my wife's skin is best represented between 65-70 IRE...so, for the best consistency I expose the Gray Card at 40 IRE and that allows me to end up with a well balanced image and great skin tones.
@@carlosq00 Very helpful. Thank you, Carlos.
I can doing this step on c100 too?
Good video. This seems like a pain if you are outside shooting a moving subject. Say you wanted a blurry background with a 50mm 1.8. I'm guessing you would need a ton of ND to fall into the spec of clog. Else you would have to increase fstop to allow less light causing you to lose that blurry background. I can only see clog good for fixed filming in a studio. I'm looking at upgrading to used c100 mk2 and trying out clog.
the built in ND of canon Cinema Cameras is enough to handle the scenario you've mentioned.
Still don’t understand why it looks so underexposed. Plus I thought it’s usually best to, if anything, over-expose log to avoid noise??
In the example I set the exposure value based on where and what my point of interest was. I did not light for the whole scene which is one reason as to why it look 👀 under exposed. With that said CLog protects the highlights and has a lot of room for adjustment in the mid tones without having to adjust the lift keeping the blacks clean. As far as over exposing to keep the noise out - Canon cameras 🎥 are not like the Sony cameras 📷 you can see the difference in that blacks are dark and rich on Canon where they get milky on Sony...it may be better to show that to try and type this out.
Would love to see the log curve for C log, I know Sony sLog2 and 3 have very little bit depth in the shadows and instead keep it all in midtones or highlights respectively. I've heard canon rolls off highlights well, so I'd rather bring things up to the edge right before highlights blow out (important highlights that is) and then drop it back down in post
I am having an issue changing the color space on my Canon R5C. I only have the option to change it to see log 3 I don't have the option to change the color space like on the Canon R5. It is causing me an issue when trying to record externally
Unfortunately the R5C can't be switched to CLog2 unlike the R5...so if you are capturing externally, you have to use CLog3 to get the best results.
@@carlosq00Yes I think what I need to do is edit a custom picture profile with C log 3 and change to BT 2020. I don't have the camera in front of me but that's what I was looking to do. Also if you do HDMI raw Canon is using C log 2 over HDMI. I'm just starting to experiment with it now
Hey, I’m new to exposing for log. Is that actually the the proper exposure value (34.3 IRE for 18% gray in c log 3) even if the rest of the scene is super underexposed like in this example? (And is that meant for using or not using a monitoring LUT?) Wouldn’t the shadows get crazy noisy if you wanted to bring them up in post? (I’m guessing the solution would be to add light to the background). Just trying to wrap my mind around exposing for log. I know some people say log footage should be overexposed by a couple stops, right?
I've got exactly the same question and thoughts. Did you get a resolution to this? Normally I over-expose CLOG3 by +1 stop, then pull the image down. I "get" the skin is correct, but what about the rest of the image?
@@ZakDeadlight I haven’t worked with c-log3 yet, but I’ve worked a lot with slog3, and I overexpose it as much as I can without the highlights reaching 94 IRE (A, this is the clipping point of Slog3;and B, I expose 2 stops over usually, and I bring it down in post). And I use a monitoring Lut to help see what it looks like in the ball part, but I’ve also been monitoring the log image with zebras to make sure I’m not clipping the highlights. It’s been working well for me to get less noisy images. I THINK as long as you’re not lifting the shadows in post and let underexposed parts be dark, it won’t get noisy in post if you properly overexposed and brought it down in post.
I am curious where you found the proper 18% exposure for each gamma curve?
set custom zebras to the IRE value you want then use a grey card...
How you ecpose to Clog in the EOS R?
you need to expose for the original CLog to get the proper exposure.
@@carlosq00 thats 40IRE? On skintones? Or how much in the meter?
I usually stick to about 45-49 or just under 50IRE and get great results from that.
I set Wide DR mLUT and set the exposure by external false color or by eye. Raw I can ETTR. Log I can ETTR too. I can use negative gain for expose with more SNR then in "native" gain/iso.
Your footage are in the shadows and in the noise. So I don't think this is the proper way to expose)
So here is the back story so that it makes more sense. I am not a full time UA-camr, so I have a full time job running my business. I promised my subscribers that I would upload on a set schedule. I was short on time due to production timelines and client projects. Because I talked to my Instagram Audience the previous day and let them know I was going to make a video on this topic, I had to do it. The reasoning for the example made an assumption which I did mention in the video and that is False Color is not available and only the camera tools are available. If matching cameras such as the 5DM4 and the C300 Mark II is important, the foundation of exposing CLog correctly is the key. To do so, we have to give CLog as common starting point so that when we apply the Canon Provided LUT, the color and gamma curve are applied correctly to the footage. The scenario I set up would be to ensure that skin tones are properly exposed when shooting in Canon Log. So if you are in a bright or low light environment, it does not matter...as long as your point of interest or talent is properly exposed to take advantage of the dynamic range associated with shooting in CLog. The second challenge was not being able to fill the screen with the Gray Card, which is key and necessary when trying to use the on camera wave form monitor to judge the luma values. This is why I then showed how you can use the tool to highlight the area needed to set the CLog exposure value for the gray card. If you know where you want the skin tones luma value to be for your exposure, you can run through the exact same process to get the exposure you need for the skin tones...that was the purpose of the video. In the type of work that I do, people are generally the point of interest/talent and that is the hardest to correct for in post. So I thought this would be helpful, but maybe I just managed to muddy the waters.
@@carlosq00 Loved this video. Watched a 2nd time, while taking notes. This comment you made, was also very helpful. Thank you, Carlos.
What is the native ISO for this camera. When I first bought it I think they recommended 850 but I don't think that exists with the current firmware.
800 ISO for the C300 Mark II and 850 for the original C300 and C500 and C100
As I recall when I first got the Mark 2 prior to any firmware updates it did have an 850 but I did the firmware update last year and it was gone as an ISO. now only 800. That is remarkably low for a native ISO. My buddy has a F55 and I think he mentioned it is native 1500 or 1600 ..not sure why.
Now I assume 35 units for mid grey using CLOG3 regardless of whether its Cine gamut or BT2020, which I prefer in general.??
I use Cinema Gamut since it is a much wider color space and like the results after the grade.
Yeah it is pretty impressive especially outside .... you ever try to match a C300 M2 and an F55 ?
How would 18% grey relate to 70% zebras on faces for Caucasian skin tones ? Is there an offset I can work out if I’m used to monitoring whites with zebras
I'd like to know how to set the IRE? How can we modify this value in cam?
+herbert freud the only way to modify the IRE value is to ADD or REMOVE light... 😉👊🏽👍🏽🎥
@@carlosq00 could you attach a link where IRE is explained?
I wonder what the EOS-R C-Log is?
77dris it is CLog the original because it’s 8bit
Clog3 is 34%, what’s the 18% grey IRE value and 90% white IRE for clog2?
When I get back in the studio I will link to the Canon document that has specific values for middle grey, and white for each of their log curves.
@@carlosq00 thank you!
I think there is no proper exposure formula,. You expose for your subject. Foe example: If your subject is white paper , you expose for that paper to be in the proper values. If your subject is black leather , you expose for those blacks to be in the values where they are not crushed. So sticking to 18% gray is not always correct. Sometimes you have to balance between your subject being properly exposed , and the rest of the scene being blown out or underexposed. Depending on the log curve sometimes it's better to overexpose to keep shadows cleaner and mid tones much more gradable.
I agree with you 100% that exposing for the point of interest is the most important. I personally use the guidelines of exposing (the lit point of interest area) middle gray to the Canon recommendation based on which type of CLog you're capturing in Camera and that in my opinion is the ideal starting point. From there, any decision I make to pain in camera I then understand what I am choosing to enhance or give up on. That was the point of my video and I shouldn't have rushed it. Using False Color makes this whole process that much easier. I want to also say that I mean and only meant middle gray not skin tones or white paper or any other color, texture or object.
See my comment above Carlos, the Canon recommended IRE values for subjects of 18% reflectivity are not always the ideal starting point. If its the human face that is the 'point of interest' canon log exposure recomendations yield results less than optimum.
What clog is c100 mk ii?
Original Canon Log
@@carlosq00. Nice. Thanks. I just subbed. So these principles apply to the original c log?
@@alloneword154 yes
@@alloneword154 and thank you
So you really underexpose by 2 stops for C-Log3?
generally speaking, I don't under expose at all and use the waveform to help balance out my exposure.
@@carlosq00 Yes. Those are standards if you do not go for some creative reasons. Thanks a lot.
The recommended IRE values, for subjects with 18% reflectivity, for the canon log curves are designed to preserve maximum latitude. However exposing skin tones with these Canon log curves is not that simple and starving the sensor of energy possibly has a deleterious effect on image quality both in terms of the rendering of skin tones and by pushing shadows into noise. See Shane Hurlbut: www.hurlbutvisuals.com/blog/2015/02/cinematography-exposing-your-canon-cinema-eos-camera-platform/?tm=ic.
somehow and for some reason the logic of using the Canon Provided LUTs got completely missed in my video...also I am a SIC member and I have read the article as watched all of Shane's test and videos as well as participated in the various workshops.
At the time of his article, Canon did not provide LUTs, we were all on our own back then in sorting through how to get the most out of the sensor and figuring out the workflow. All that to say that my workflow works for me and I don't intend on convincing people that they should do things as I do. I do however encourage everyone to test out their own gear, in their own settings and share those results so that we have more than a single sample and opinion to then work out our own, optimized workflow. All that to say, I am going to make it a point to produce a test where I put my own workflow up against comments like yours and Williams so that I can use that experiment as my next response to someone asking me to read Shane's blog.
Thanks for the reply Carlos, and I would be very interested in seeing a series of tests, look forward to it. Apologies did not mean to suggest your workflow was somehow missing the point rather that I found it interesting (and perhaps a good point of conversation, reflecting my attempts to understand this subject better) how deviating from the standard recommendation to expose middle grey to maximise exposure latitude might allow the sensor to generate the most pleasing image in terms of skin tones. I'll dig deeper into the Canon provided LUTS.
It is a bit complicated
???
@@carlosq00 I couldn’t understand the log 3 at all
That's big grey card is not middle grey, that's 40% grey. So just underexposed your shot. You were actually properly exposed before your adjusted. You're right that 18% grey should sit at 40%, but you're using your tools wrong.
The big gray card is calibrated to be exposed at 40% IRE, not 40% Gray...