@@oliverer3 no, it's not overkill. Imagine a cell shorts out. It will draw all the power of those in parallel, and will burst into flames. If you add a tiny crystal fuse to that cell, the fuse will blow and there will be no fire. Teslas have a fuse per every single cell, and they have many more, and in much better conditions than EUCs
A necessary PSA. It's a major problem, even if controllers have some of current limiting implemented through firmware-I've been pushing for this change quite some time-the battery packs may already be compromised, with no prior symptoms, & spontaneous ignition risk. The fire that wiped out our service center last week was almost certainly the result of one of these compromised battery packs. A full battery recall is going to a necessary, monumental undertaking.
Holy crap you had a fire? I’m sorry man hope everyone is ok. To the most import point, when is my ex.n high torque coming in? Just kidding! I’m hoping everyone is ok
I think people will want to get them swapped so they onus is on them to provide the process/system by which at least registered customers can get that done quickly and painlessly - it's never cheap, as it's unplanned expense to fix a problem after it's left the factory, both bad things to a company, but it's much worse if you don't take the hit quickly and competently. Captain Obvious says that products that catch fire can ruin a company almost overnight if the issues aren't resolved. If they weren't already an industry sales leader, they would probably not survived the release of the information, competently handled recall or not. Begode has the resources to do this right (just like Dell did when their products started catching fire in the worst of places, like on airplanes during flights). The only thing to see is if they go back and look for the flaws in other products that this might have reused design parts from, do the qual testing over again in their own lab, and issue patches and parts for those units already in the field that may be at risk. Sort of like a TSB (technical service bulletin) we get on cars now, even if there isn't a formal/legal recall.
Something that I don't think was mentioned... We often charge the cells in our wheels just as rapidly as we discharge them, but its in much shorter bursts. LG M50T cells have a discharge rating that is 4 times higher than the maximum charge rating. Extremely hard braking at high speeds or while going down a large hill can push a monstrous amount of energy back into the cells over a period of a few seconds. The cells are not designed for this type of extreme recharging. Who knows what impact it is going to have on them long term?
this is a great point. There are times, especially on streets in traffic, that we do need to brake hard. Unfortunately it is inevitable that ALL riders will at times be charging their wheels above what the batteries are rated for.
at most its only recharging as hard as it accelerates forwards. at worst i would say you are only slightly damaging the battery health because its such a small period of time
I can accelerate at about 125A on my exn, but I can only brake at 70A(the magnets can't take anymore, I've overpowered it during braking and I fell on my ass), for a short burst that's ok.
@@kenokrend4600 yah, but the nikola is much less capable overall, when I had my nikola, I could only pull 60A on accelerations, braking was usually only 30-40A as it is a much lower power budget wheel. The HT wheels are to slow for me to be comfortable on them, I casually cruise at 65+ which would automatically mean a faceplant on any other wheel than a HS. Especially at my weight, 110kg all geared up.
Great video Adam, and I was surprised to hear my name. I always thought my riding style would become fasionable some day 😉 A lot of good advice in this video. Myself and others have always thought that Gotway wheels are regularly abused by their riders (like you 🙂). I do prefer the chill ride - fast but not extremely fast and mostly no heavy accelerations. I see many new performance riders accelerate on their wheels like they have infinite power. Yes, I'm sure it's fun but you're putting a lot of stress on the wheel. 👊👊👊👍👍👍
Thanks Marty! Appreciate it! Yes I think your riding style is now very much in the fashion :) I also need to tone it down a little now and inform viewers about potential issues with riding “on the edge”. As opposed to my videos I usually also ride chill unless I’m on the wide open road where I need to keep up with cars…I do like tricks and inclines, technical riding though. Not that much only fast rides ;) Indeed there needs to be a limit that is safe for the battery so the riders don’t destroy their wheels. Or custom battery packs that can handle that sort of strain.
@@mr_wrongway Fortunately the EUC industry is still young and there are signs that it's starting to mature. It's going to take a few more years but I think the future is bright.
@10:24 you cannot compare power requirements of an ebike to a EUC unless you are talking about an e-bike that doesn't have gears. Most e-bikes have mechanical gears. Utilizing gears enables a low power motor to provide great low end power and a high top speed, but it comes at the cost of having a clunky transmission that has to be shifted. Tesla cars don't use gears and they bypass the problem of needing both low end torque and high speed by using an extremely high voltage (the same thing KingSong is attempting with the S20, but on a much larger scale).
wrong, most ebikes have no gears. EUC and ebikes cannot be compared because of differences in two areas: 1) air resistance 2) needing to maintain the rider upright. At high speeds, both of these work together to double and even triple the power requirements of an EUC. therefore, a 4000 watt ebike can accelerate and reach a much higher top speed with the same voltage and amperage because all the energy is used more efficiently towards forwards momentum.
@@Blox117 not true, the energy used to compensate the driver balance is very low in most circumstances. In EUC you just need a big torque reserve in every situation so you could intervene with the driver. If what you said is true the EUCs would be pretty inefficient which is not the case. I agree with air resistance.
Oh my goodness. You know it's SERIOUS when he says "Wrong Way" and does NOT say "🎵Wrrroooong waaayyy 🎶". Sorry to hear this happened, brother. Thank you for sharing.
I have Gotway MSP HS. Mileage is 12000km+. Riding 60-70km/h often (but not very continiously, it depends more on wind), winning drags vs cars on intersections. Riding for the whole year, in 30C+ and -15C -25C (25 Celsius below zero), in rain and snow (made additional waterproofing and glued some holes!!!), often steep hills and ladders/ramps, and jumping. Charging with 8A almost every day, multiple times (but at home always use standard 3A charger). During last very slow chill ride in +10C weather I made 60.5km, and had 54% (91.29V) of battery left, so the battery is not tired at all.
UPD: couple days ago started having problems with battery charging, disassembled, and one brick has 2-4 leaked cells. However they visually look totally fine. DONT BUY THIS SHIT.
Great video Adam ... People need to remember what you mentioned several times in this video ... if you're a Nik owner like me for example ... and you're a chill rider (less that 30mph/50km) ... you have no worries. If you've crashed your wheel, push it hard on hills all the time, or ride aggressively in cold weather, you may need to be concerned. I heard about Gotway fires back in May when I purchased my wheel ... common factors in all of these fires seems to be "aggressive riding styles" and/or "crashed wheels before the fire started". Since I'm not an aggressive rider ... and have had no crashes up to this point, I'm not worried in the least about owning my Gotway. Safe riding everyone.
One of our colleagues from Czech received a new Begode wheel that puffed and started to smoke when he was trying to start it for the first time. When he disassembled the cover he found out that cable harness was floating above the control board in a position where it shouldnt be. Probably transport vibrations and pinching of the cable made it to short with conductive heatsink of (voltage regulator I suspect?). Therefore the battery was shortened and the PCB traces evaporated (as a fuse lol). He was lucky that there was no fire. He photo documented the wheel and it was clearly seen that QA failed. He contacted the distributor and Begode. Someone would expect that they would deeply apologize for this experience and do everything they could for this type of failure but the communication wasnt going anywhere. I mean the distributor sent him new control board for replacement. P.S. control board has so many through hole components without any fixing, cable harness floating around sharp edges of heat sink is a big quality issue
Great information. Applies to high powered scooters as well. I'm glad my Vsett 11+ has a 2 minute limit for sport mode. Maybe a feature like this would greatly benefit EUCs?
Great feedback and yes we just needs to be aware of these things so we can make sure we take some basic precautions. I do have a basic smoke alarm where I store my wheels and I dont really want to run into issues at night. I also have a basic fire blanket and a small fire extinguisher for the house that works with electrical fires. This I got way before the wheels. Just good to have and know how to use it.
i agree that low battery resistance is what we should strive for. not high voltage. i also agree that we should choose a battery that can sustain a high current while maintaining a cool temperature. Shane Chen, original inventor of electric unicycles, choose the highest quality battery he could find, a123 cells. they could sustain 70 amps. there's youtube videos where people are short circuiting a123 cells, and the cell does not catch on fire. there's another video where a guy place an a123 cell in a fire, it popped, but does not catch on fire. around 2010, general motors chose LG over a123, huge mistake. now the volt is experiencing fires. a123 is no longer in business because people don't understand the value of safe, non-toxic batteries with a long lifespan . the only thing that people value is how far the vehicle can travel when the battery is new.
i also feel that the US national laboratories should perform safety/durability/lifespan tests on different brands of cells for public safety, also for environmental reasons.
Hope they update firmware ASAP to limit battery output, safety first over performance 100%! I’m going to watch this again later and take notes! Critical information we need to learn! Love this! Thank you!
Actually power = speed * force so the 9:10 gotway battery current example doesnt look flawed to me. Therefore even during acceleration the motor current ( torque / force ) is high but current / power drawn from battery is increasing gradually. The worst for battery is high speed acceleration / high speed riding / riding against high wind / speed hill riding and especially when its hot. Accelerations around standstill are bad for Powerelectronics and motor but battery is "chilling". Regarding battery rating. The cell datasheet rating needs to be taken with grain of salt. Depending on battery box configuration, inner cells have generally worse heat dissipation therefore will see more temperature and even running the recommended continuous current from manufacturer might be too much for inner cells.
I haven't seen many wheels inside.. but I thought that packs are built mostly with 2 layers configs. Then both are "outter". But still, temperature might be very important here, so good catch. (For sure important "during fail", but this is too late). Speaking about current drawn. Everything depends on the weight/size/clothes of the rider. Acceleration and hight speed and breaking from high speed are the most dangerous for heavier riders. Constant speed is rather "safe". Severe wind "in the face" never helps (regardles it is speed or wind cause), but again it applies to bigger riders much more.
@@pajakgdynia even if you have 2 layer config the central cells will be more heat stressed but its a lot better than 3 layer or so. My main point is the relation of power speed and force (torque). That Battery, Power electronics and motor have different envelopes and also efficiency map. Most of the slow speed / standstill operation is heavy on torque and therefore on motor or power electronics. Going slowly steep hill might in worst case fry the motor or Power electronics but battery wont see much current drawn. Going very fast on slight uphill might be drawing battery much but motor / power electronics might still have reserve
@@chrisrathjan1501 basically the difference is in efficiency of each component which is quite high and therefore negligible for these assumptions. You could say that mechanical power = electrical power - losses (which are a magnitude lower)
Great great great video! Also, what about cell-level fuses? Actually cells with CID (Current Interrupt Devices) like what EUCs use shouldn't catch on fire. If they do, that's because the CID has failed. So knowing that they don't work well, cell-level fuses would be cool. If a cell shorts out, even if the main fuse blows, that cell will suck all the energy from the others in parallel, possibly damaging them as well.
Well done! I'm a chill rider on my EX. I would like if I could weather proof the EX better. The big hole for the motor wire to allow suspension movement to the inner wheel well sucks. I'm going to use a foam filter inside the heatsink air duct to help keep some of the outside "outside"! My EX never gets hot. I rarely hear the fan. I did get a new control board after the original failed. The new one is a black board version. So far, so good. Had a great carving, to music, ride today. Almost 40 mph too. I'm too light and without side pads to accelerate too much. That's ok with me. Really love the suspension. Peace from Maine, USA...
My euc is now in "empty" room nothing what can burn is around stored EUC and i make "pullhook" in case of fire i can in 20 sec pull euc out of house to empty garden(no obstacles in exit route). Door is reinforcment with 2mm iron plate against fire. And now i use Antifire blanket on each EUC. And when i charging often go check if sometnig not smell or is not normaly hot. And fire sensor is must! Not all riders live in big house with garen like me i understand. Important rule is not charge any euc 24+ hours if EUC be with any contact with rain or pudles or extreme fog condition. From my experience no real porblem on my MSP2500w Sherman V2 or KS16X(16x must be turn on and off after charging if not is in standby state and board got wery hot in some hours)
@@fabiankehrer3645 Depends on control board version and firmware actual model not sufer this. My 16X is old Vanila motor with 1.5 control board and FW 1.0.7 this is unique setup becasue all other FW dowgrade power and aceleration curve more to safety side. My 16x is speed limited to 38km/h (tiltback) i always want have power reserve becasue i am 🐷.
thanks for doing all the research and discussing these issues. Helpful content for sure, that may prevent issues for others in the future. Just based on this alone, I'll modify how I ride my MSP speed - torquing less, and not driving it hard up inclines
If they install 50-60A fuses they need to limit the current draw first. You don't want to have the fuse trigger when accelerating hard, or at high speeds. There is a fantastic video about Tesla card fuses "Tesla Protection - Does it have a fuse?", and how they worked around the issue of the unwanted fuse triggering. (Spoiler: They use pyrotechnic digital fuses. A small charge blows the fuse connection. And the trigger point can be digitally - dynamically adjusted. For example to not trigger when accelerating with ludicruse mode) Another fun fact. Tesla electric cars use a classic Led-acid 12V battery. Wait what 🤔... why does it need a old battery Technology with the lithium ion batteries?.. Well that's something to go find out :)
Now I kind of want to make a current monitoring datalogger and install it in my wheel. Regarding fuses, they're usually quite a bit larger than the expected current draw to prevent them from blowing during a current spike under normal operation they're more there to break the circuit in case of a short condition.
My wheel is the newest model of the RS HS. Thought I had the HT because that's what I ordered. I'm happy regardless of the mistake. But this model has been overhauled a bit with actual Samsung 21700 battery packs and they put on the display to see not only speed but power use and battery levels. Plus they actually waterproof ed a little better with rubber seals for bearing covers and better coating on the mother board. Although, of coarse I opened it up and siliconed a few things to actually waterproof more. That when I found the c30 sticker as apposed to the c38 sticker which I thought I had. And honestly I was very surprised to see extra care taken with this model. Like they actually listened or something silly like that.
@@kenokrend4600 well I've already broken this one open and waterproofed it. I'm actually pretty happy. Although with the torque in this beast I could imagine the torque coming out of the HT.
It seems very likely some of the cells were in a severely discharged/low voltage state and the repeated disconnecting and reconnecting of the battery 3 times (to charge and discharge the capacitors as mentioned) might have drawn enough current quickly to fill the caps to put it over the edge, causing a cell to fail starting the chain reaction.
when your battery do not fully charge there's something wrong and you should IMMEDIATELY remove it and store in a safety place, lot of people are new to wheels and electronics in general, this is simply a human error :( Not the first time, sorry that this happened once again :( Tnx again for the informative video, appreciate as always man ;)
I believe a certifying body like UL would have not certified any of these wheels. Recently, I walked my Sherman about 3 or 4 football fields and the wheel locked Up. It’s all mentioned in my post on the Sherman Facebook post I made. A few early comments mentioned static electricity causing issues and maybe it’s possible EM energy (though i never heard this elsewhere). True or not the assurance of a certified UL product (no I don’t work for them) would not only make a product safer but think about the cost built in to warrantee claims which could been lower, a lower overhead of customer services, intangible costs, law suit/lawyer costs plus other. Fires can be avoided by good design quality assurance and certification of safety and operability etc… I mean seriously we need quality and safety both but safety is a given.
It’s just a matter of control. It is simply that if there is a cert it would be good for all of us because safety is a barrier to acceptance and a good way to ban EUCs. A misunderstanding is that this has to be an issue. safety is not costly it is just so much worse the cost of poor quality and unsafe devices.
Was at Green wheelz in Kabaty today and the mechanic said a brand new only ridden 10 km Nikola had a circuit board short from a broke wire. Hope Jacek can sort a replacement wheel. Rip Nikkie
What are the best practices for battery care when not riding much during the winter season? Would hate for this to combust just sitting around. Serious question. Thanks
This happened to my MSP HT, sadly it happned in my appartement. 14th October and currently homeless living with a friend, apartment ruined and most of my things will be thrown away, my cats sadly suffocated in the fire to. As far as I have figured it was a bad cell that started it. Not charging and not on, the fire started just after me and my roommate had woken up in the morning. Been riding for almost 10 years and this was my sixth machine. It ignited my old KS18L as well since it was parked next to it. I suffered 1, 2 and 3rd degree burn but was mostly lucky. My roommate was not so lucky and was sedated for three weeks with a lot of 3rd degree burns ,he can now walk around. I live on the first floor so we could escape through my bedroom window. And even after an event like this I will continue my wheeling next year.
Yeah that's insane until you can get a place to store your wheel safely and out of the way of possible casualties I suggest you rethink that plan. How old was the ms ht when it decided to try and kill you?
@@allysally9992 Almost two years. Had an incident two weeks prior when in really low speed coming of it to walk (litteraly standing on one leg geting ready to step of it) it hit a part of the next to building I did not see. It spun around and crashed, burnong the controlboard. I replaced the board and we checked the voltage of the cells, was nominal. Then, well
@@allysally9992 I have a balcony with lots of room, thinking of getting a few wielders I know to make a steel cage for it and hopefully make a smaller anti projectile cage for the battery packs for the next machine, fire blanket. Many ideas are racing through my head because I cant imagine never using one of these machines again.
Usually the cells have a lot smaller charge rating than discharge rating. So it should be more dangerous to brake hard. Also, I find that 0.5C discharge rating interesting (in low temperatures). 1C is 5A for a 5000mAh cell. That makes 10A max continuously for the wheel (4p). However with the 3C rating of normal temperatures, you get 15A per cell = 60A total for the wheel. Then for short bursts I hear 5C is ok per cell. That makes 100A for the wheel. (1800Wh 100.8V pack) 7.3A per cell I don't understand where it came from. Is it a compromise between 2.5A and 15A? (0.5C and 3C)
as a rule of thumb a wheel owner needs to charge the wheel outside, or in a fireplace to be safe. Any metal cabinet, or fireproof container would not work inside as the toxic fumes could not vent out from your home.
Hi Adam! Thanks so much for doing this video and sharing this info. I remember very clearly when I first got into EUCs how the community was actively posting about fires caused by EUCs. The scariest part was not really having information about what behavior was causing them. I own all Gotway/Begode wheels but don't really intend to push them to the limit, especially as a heavier rider where I know limits can be reached quickly. The Nikola+ fire was particularly scary as I own a Nikola+ AR, and I'm hoping that the larger battery pack plus continuing to ride my wheels chill can keep risks at a minimum. My other wheels, Tesla v2, MCM5V2, MTen3 are also fairly chill rides too. No speed demons here. Thanks to your video though, I will no longer recommend buying used Gotway wheels previously pushed to their limits, and will spread word to friends who ride wheels in these categories. As a community, it's important to look out for one another.
if theyre gona use 18650s, sony vtc5s would be decent, theyre 25amp discharge. We use them to vape because although your only discharging a few seconds it can be between 20 and 30 amps for a single battery mod
Molicel p42a's are currently cheaper, more powerful, safer(they provide quality cells to consumers, Samsung, LG etc never sell to consumers directly, the cells have been sourced from some unofficial channels) which Ewheels uses to make safer packs for customers as they replace the gotway packs entirely. 18650 are starting to fall behind in terms of production rates(more demand than supply) and that's why the sherman can't be produced anymore.
Very important safety announcement for all PEV´s owners out there, as important this video can push brands to do it better and safer too. Thank you . P.S. do I see a new tshirt design? " ride like Marty " :D
great quote: "be more Marty!" having riding Monster v1 since early 2016 until last year I agree 110% .. "feel the wheel" and gently work it into high speeds!... I do the same on my Sherman
Any Shop should stop saling Gotway/Begode wheels until they have more quality and more saftey. I think if only when sales collapse, they won't learn before then.
The problem is also because of the people, the majority of the batteries which burn are people who ride under the rain whereas the wheels are not made for, even the wheels with IP are only weak IP dust and water projection And these people will say "blah blah dude but I 've spend $3k on a wheel to commute to work or ride in any weather otherwise why would I buy it blah blah.."
Fuse is not meant to protect the battery, thats what the bms is for. Fuses protect the wires Also these batteries should handle short burst of current even over the battery rating so hard acceleration in moderation is fine. Long burst like a hill as u mentioned would be very bad
They need to add emergency power kill switches too. My wheel got wedged under a hand rail and it was impossible to turn off with the main power button or the spin kill button. Just had to overpower the motor and rip the wheel out from the spot.
Very informative video thank you. How did you come up with 60A as maximum power draw for the EXN? It has 3 packs of 900wh so 7.3x6= 43.8A - - - - - please advise thanks
Thank you$ I would say 43.8 up to 60 as the cells can draw 10A when they were tested in separate tests. However they might get warm over time when this happens which isn’t helping with the lifespan of them. The manufacturer actually states 15A per cell but only in temperatures not achievable for this pack or maybe just when you started riding on the wheel.
13:22 low speed accelerations don't use a lot of amps, because the BLDC motor torque-rpm curve is basically linear (higher torque at low rpm, that means it doesn't need many amps to saturate the magnets so it means that per amp you get more torque, high speeds require more amps as the torque unit per amp goes down and the magnets aren't saturated as easily). A motor can't provide any more torque if the magnets are saturated with current and dumping more current just cooks mosfets and cables. Saturated magnets happen when you overpower a wheel, so you start skipping magnets and lose power output My exn with my fat ass never draws over 50A when speeds are under 30kmh, once above 35 the current starts rising more, even up to 130A according to euc world, but my case stands.
@@Blox117 no, no, no, they do not for the aforementioned reasons. The back emf has very little effect here so the POTENTIAL for more amps is there, but it only draws as much as you ask from it and even then, the magnets become saturated which means even if you shoved more amps in to the motor, you'd get no more torque. At low speed the magnets become saturated at something like 55-65A, shoving more in achieves absolutely nothing. At high speed you can shove in 130A and the magnets could take more. High speed accelerations and maneuvers are the most demanding in terms of amperage.
@@94e88 this is how it works pal: at zero RPM the motor will draw as much current as the source will give it until electrical resistance from the windings causes it to lower. this does not change greatly for 0.1 or 1 RPM. it decreases gradually as RPM increases.
Good work on this video # The EUC industry can engineer solutions for battery failure and the solutions will arrive faster because of public postings like this one. Which company will guarantee to keep their batteries within performance limits? I can't guess which company will be first but I know it will happen when the Marketing department reminds everyone that product fires hurt profits while safety campaigns make good marketing material.
This is why the motor power to battery capacity ratio is so important. I wouldn't go much above 0.6. (For intuition: I a tiny motor is not going to overpower a huge battery, where a powerful motor will overpower a tiny battery with ease.) The situation could be ameliorated by inserting a super capacitor in the circuit to absorb and deliver overcurrents. That this solution has not been implemented is astonishing.
Wamp wamp. So silly. I'd even be worried with Monster pro. They say "oh it should be a big enough pack the stress should be fine on the batteries." Big yikes putting non high drain in high drain devices.
Adam top video and good info for all of us in this world of PEVs, thanks for your video and wasted hours to help with good info for our electric community
Financial Independence Retire Early Not what I was expecting. I believe in the phone industry manufactures limit the performance of the phone as the battery ages. I don't agree with these practices, however more control on quality and output with thought out designs. Will be good to see how this evolves.
Adam you are a good guy. If you want safer devices you have to evangelize UL certification as a solution as it is a solution readily available. China product exports should go through a certification process working with a certification body like UL starting at the design process. The case for this is that instead of the cost of bad quality, intangible costs, and safety costs is that we are already paying for bad quality. Additionally, as laws come under consideration (as the EUC community grows) a history of fires will come under discussion and EUCs will have yet another barrier to wide acceptance. Evangelizing means representing all of us which is really what you do anyway and you do it really well and with heart. If there is to be a spokesman for change it could be you.
We pay for it we shouldn't have to go chill wtf? Specially when the wheels nowadays cost 1-3k. If they can't take it they should implement a way where it's impossible to go to the danger zone as they casually deep their toes into
then buy a vehicle better suited to been ridden on the edge such as a motorcycle price is irrelevant, abusing any vehicle will lead to issues sooner than later
@@davewood1982 You don't hear bike manufacturers say _please ride it gently_ you are paying for something that's very expensive. Maybe where you're from it's cheap and you don't value it that much don't know but it's ridiculous to accept as a customer something less of it's value. The only people that ride it that hard would be fantomas and shibby time, if one of the wheels they had burned down ofc that would be expected, it's more of a surprise they haven't.
i feel that the US national laboratories should perform safety/durability/lifespan tests on different brands of cells for public safety, also for environmental reasons. batteries are too technical of a subject the public needs to know the difference between a safe long lasting cell and one that is prone to catching on fire.
Thank you very much for your video, always interesting and useful for our community I will be more careful with my RS 19 HS when the wind is strong especially in the morning in winter
Maybe Inmotion could jump in with a new wheel 😉 And you can do a showcase of battery quality. Battery enclosure. Dual battery systems with separate BMS for each pack.
just saying, every batterypack has to have its own bms anyways. Monster pro and sherman have 4 bms's each for example, 1800wh gotways have 2bms's and 2700wh gotways have 3 bms's in it.
You talking about drawing no more than 28 amps on a 1800wh battery, while me on my s18 constantly drawing to 30amps and sometimes my Max is even been 44 amps... 😅 and with mainly riding trails and jumps 2000 miles logged. I guess I should prepare for the worst 😑🥲
It’s anywhere between 30-40 amps for this LG chemistry. It also says 15Amp output but that’s only at a temperature which might not be achievable for the pack - 10-25 °C. Thanks for the feedback though! King Song S18 does have a too small battery but it also hab limits which help with that. With 3P it should be around 21-30Amp max continous or so
Im assuming all this information also applies to Extreme Bull and the commander wheel correct? I know it’s not necessarily begode but begode uses some of their parts in the commander. Any thoughts?
We’re going to see about that. Veteran Sherman also uses similar boards but there’s clearly a limit on its power. The fuses are at 60 Amps. Let’s see what extreme bull has to offer and then we can tell what’s what. Extreme bull also does have a 8P pack so that’s better but for sure it could use some better cells.
It would be really expensive but I would like a battery made with some really high discharge cells. Something like a Samsung 40t 21700. You would loose some capacity but I would much rather have the crazy discharge amp of the cell. Then the cell is way overkill for what we are doing.
Wrong way you are one of my favorite Content creator I watched your videos all the time. Thank you for this video. I need your advice, Ive been planning to buy Mcm5 V2 the 460wh version . I am planning to use it for content creation. I think my speed when I finally get the chance to ride mcm5 v2 will only be around 20km or 30km max but I am afraid that it might cause fire? I was supposed to buy mcm5 a month ago but I did some research that Begode most of the time burn. Would you recommend MCM 5 V2 460wh version . to me? or I should rather choose the Inmotion 5f or the Kingsong 14m because there will be less chance that it will cause fiire ? Thank you
Gotway engineering at its greatest. 12,500+km on my 16x and stil going strong. Have had to change the fuzes a couple times and need a new casing but mechanically it's been fantastic
@@Sparki0609 their is a clear difference between the 2. Gotway have been making dodgy wheels for a very long time. Those 2 company's are like chalk and cheese. 1 thrives to make the safest best quality euc on the market and the other is a dodgy company that only cares about the sales it gets from boasting the speed it achieves by removing all the safety features and has poor design and has dominated the euc failures for the last 6 years I have experience both riding and selling both these brands and their is definitely a big difference
Drawing too much current from the cells doesn't cause damage.. imediately. The process is quite slow. Of course, if the wheel is beaten all the time, the degradation is much faster (this is almost the same as charging with high current, number of cycles decreases). The most dangerous is to increase the capacity and connect batteries (*individual ones*) parallel. If one battery dies (shortcuts), the energy from "neighbours" causes heating up and in worst case fire. So remark about bigger batteries is.. I'd say questionable.. The same with internal resistance: higher resistance can potentially make wheel safer. 21700 have much higher capacity and connecting them might cause problems. Of course having multiple branches (e.g. 4 battery packs) might be a solution (especially when connected with appropriate protection on the motherboard). Smart BMSes are crucial in such case (as reverse polarisation kills the cells almost immediately, what might cause high current between the packs.. such protection is missing in most cases). Smaller fuse in every branch would be simplest solution of course. Speaking about performance.. There are better cells for such purpose as well (I don't remember the chemistry, but in most cases these are in black). Again capacity is not as great, but the current is much higher and temp ranges wider. Therefore.. either range at 20*C and "granny" speed or performance at all conditions. But currently no such choice at all.
So I have an 100v msx 1860wh with panasonic ga cells. They're rated at 10 amps continuous, does that mean I have safely a max total draw of 60amps? One of my packs said 24s3p.
@@mr_wrongway Ok yeah for sure, it seems to me that 60 amps is still a pretty decent ceiling to have right? Better than the 21700 cells at least. Seems to me that Gotway shot themselves in the foot by using 21700 cells especially since they cheaped out on their choice of cells.
@@Mpower31 Nothing wrong per se with 21700s, they are great cells, but using the highest capacity(so lowest power output, as the internal resistance is much higher=they produce more heat and drop more voltage) cells with low parallel groups really cuts the max safe power. An exn with 21700s will probably be a much safer wheel as it can easily do 60A continuous and bursts of 120A.
@@Mpower31 yeah, and that's where we see the problems. They should have gone with a higher performing cell across the board like a samsung 50E/G/S, Molicel m50a/p42a, "Vapcell g50"(which I think is a samsung rewrap). All of these can do a strong 10A with less voltage sag or they have a higher discharge rating upto 25A like on the 50S or an insane 45A max burst like the moli p42a(it also can handle 30A continuous with little heat).
So a 40 amp alarm is safe on a Nik, or pushing max? Maybe 30 or 35 is more realistic safe? Were you saying the amp readings in darknessbot were unreliable or reasonable close? just curious
Problem is: GW is NOT showing battery amps…they show motor amps, which are totally different! Euc world tries to use a algorythm to make the amps more realistic to battery amps…i dont know if Darkness is trying that, too….
it seems like when they switched over to the 21700 from the 18650 cells more fires , 18650 cells lighter ,higher total discharge ,less fires ? Them Begode Euc need a lot of amps ,21700 can't support the out put
I have Inmotion V8F. It should be in fire now according to your information. It has only 500 Wh battery. It can do easilly 3000W output. Voltage on that battery drops like crazy for more than 5V under load. I am amazed that this wheel never cut off on me. Bateries in these small wheels are stressed all the time. Now I have Tesla T3 with 3x bigger battery pack and the most I have ever done is 4500 W ( I have no power pads). Have you ever seen burning V8F? No? Maybe the power output from battery is not the main problem :-).
How about the new KingSong S-20? They are using LG M50Ts aswell while claiming a max power output of 7500W. That makes nearly 70A, the battery pack seems to be 30S 4P resulting in only around 30A of continous power. That really puts me off the S-20. What do you think?
I have a begode msx 2021 84v, i don t know english very well and so i don t understand a lot this video. Anyway, i use DarknessBot, can you recommend any kind of alarm to avoid fire episodes?
Don't worry. There should be sanyo cells in MSX 2021, best 18650 cells that are on market. BP can easily handle 60A. You can ride like crazy on MSX and it will never drain more current than 60A.
I'm worried now. Your videos talked me into an MSP. I'm not an extreme rider, but I am a heavy rider. This wheel beeps at me around 30 kph which is a little annoying but this only started when I switched to the WheelLog app... I might just opt for a new S20 and hope for the best at this point maybe try to sell the MSP.. this is frustrating
I'm 260lbs in the RS ht. I also ride chill- no need to worry if you ride conservative. I also bought brand new- so I'm sure of my wheels history. If all of this applies to you, you have nothing to worry about
Hey man. Quick question. I've been doing a lot of research on euc's and I honestly can't decide to go with a monster pro or commander. I have a commander pre-ordered but I am worried about over heating. Which unit would you choose? I value your opinion
I own a monster pro and it overheats also unless you do a mod. As for commander hs vs mpro, both top speed seem the same. I think the commander hs might be more torque than the mpro though however the mpro is the most stable wheel of every wheel so far even the veteran sherman but it's bad at sudden braking/torque. Rims (larger diameter) shatter like glass and are $700 to replace)
It really depends on the riding style.. it could be much to have super intense ride style for 10000km and very little to chill ride with 20000km mileage
I’ll do it before selling the wheel and checking the battery :) the battery service will do that for me though and I’ll probably just have some simple pics of that. HOWEVER on Wednesday I’ll be taking my MSP batteries for a check so we’ll see what’s what after 2500 miles of abuse.
Small update on the video!
130A fuse DOES HELP but only in case motherboard blows and then they save the battery from shortcircuit.
fuses have to be on every single cell. this is the best protection. check how look battery packs in solar systems :)
@@BearEbike On every single cell might be a bit overkill but certainly on every pack.
@@oliverer3 actually cell level fusing is not that hard
The 130A fuse is ONLY meant for short circuit protection. that's it. thats all it was intended for.
@@oliverer3 no, it's not overkill. Imagine a cell shorts out. It will draw all the power of those in parallel, and will burst into flames. If you add a tiny crystal fuse to that cell, the fuse will blow and there will be no fire. Teslas have a fuse per every single cell, and they have many more, and in much better conditions than EUCs
A necessary PSA. It's a major problem, even if controllers have some of current limiting implemented through firmware-I've been pushing for this change quite some time-the battery packs may already be compromised, with no prior symptoms, & spontaneous ignition risk.
The fire that wiped out our service center last week was almost certainly the result of one of these compromised battery packs. A full battery recall is going to a necessary, monumental undertaking.
We deeply appreciate everything you do for the community!
Why are you almost certain that your service center burned because of one of these?
Holy crap you had a fire? I’m sorry man hope everyone is ok. To the most import point, when is my ex.n high torque coming in? Just kidding! I’m hoping everyone is ok
Oh no. I'm so sorry to hear you've had a fire. 😥
I think people will want to get them swapped so they onus is on them to provide the process/system by which at least registered customers can get that done quickly and painlessly - it's never cheap, as it's unplanned expense to fix a problem after it's left the factory, both bad things to a company, but it's much worse if you don't take the hit quickly and competently.
Captain Obvious says that products that catch fire can ruin a company almost overnight if the issues aren't resolved. If they weren't already an industry sales leader, they would probably not survived the release of the information, competently handled recall or not.
Begode has the resources to do this right (just like Dell did when their products started catching fire in the worst of places, like on airplanes during flights). The only thing to see is if they go back and look for the flaws in other products that this might have reused design parts from, do the qual testing over again in their own lab, and issue patches and parts for those units already in the field that may be at risk. Sort of like a TSB (technical service bulletin) we get on cars now, even if there isn't a formal/legal recall.
Something that I don't think was mentioned... We often charge the cells in our wheels just as rapidly as we discharge them, but its in much shorter bursts. LG M50T cells have a discharge rating that is 4 times higher than the maximum charge rating. Extremely hard braking at high speeds or while going down a large hill can push a monstrous amount of energy back into the cells over a period of a few seconds. The cells are not designed for this type of extreme recharging. Who knows what impact it is going to have on them long term?
this is a great point. There are times, especially on streets in traffic, that we do need to brake hard. Unfortunately it is inevitable that ALL riders will at times be charging their wheels above what the batteries are rated for.
at most its only recharging as hard as it accelerates forwards. at worst i would say you are only slightly damaging the battery health because its such a small period of time
I can accelerate at about 125A on my exn, but I can only brake at 70A(the magnets can't take anymore, I've overpowered it during braking and I fell on my ass), for a short burst that's ok.
@@94e88 ive cutout my Nikola braking. makes me appreciate the HT wheels
@@kenokrend4600 yah, but the nikola is much less capable overall, when I had my nikola, I could only pull 60A on accelerations, braking was usually only 30-40A as it is a much lower power budget wheel.
The HT wheels are to slow for me to be comfortable on them, I casually cruise at 65+ which would automatically mean a faceplant on any other wheel than a HS. Especially at my weight, 110kg all geared up.
Great video Adam, and I was surprised to hear my name. I always thought my riding style would become fasionable some day 😉
A lot of good advice in this video. Myself and others have always thought that Gotway wheels are regularly abused by their riders (like you 🙂).
I do prefer the chill ride - fast but not extremely fast and mostly no heavy accelerations.
I see many new performance riders accelerate on their wheels like they have infinite power. Yes, I'm sure it's fun but you're putting a lot of stress on the wheel.
👊👊👊👍👍👍
Thanks Marty! Appreciate it! Yes I think your riding style is now very much in the fashion :)
I also need to tone it down a little now and inform viewers about potential issues with riding “on the edge”.
As opposed to my videos I usually also ride chill unless I’m on the wide open road where I need to keep up with cars…I do like tricks and inclines, technical riding though. Not that much only fast rides ;)
Indeed there needs to be a limit that is safe for the battery so the riders don’t destroy their wheels. Or custom battery packs that can handle that sort of strain.
@@mr_wrongway Fortunately the EUC industry is still young and there are signs that it's starting to mature. It's going to take a few more years but I think the future is bright.
Sadly my Minster Pro mobo burned today, and I am chill rider that is also using your cooling mode Marty :(
@@rouder9237 What exactly happened to cause the control board to fail?
lol Marty I was wondering if you would take any offense to the comments on your riding style 😅
@10:24 you cannot compare power requirements of an ebike to a EUC unless you are talking about an e-bike that doesn't have gears. Most e-bikes have mechanical gears. Utilizing gears enables a low power motor to provide great low end power and a high top speed, but it comes at the cost of having a clunky transmission that has to be shifted. Tesla cars don't use gears and they bypass the problem of needing both low end torque and high speed by using an extremely high voltage (the same thing KingSong is attempting with the S20, but on a much larger scale).
wrong, most ebikes have no gears. EUC and ebikes cannot be compared because of differences in two areas: 1) air resistance 2) needing to maintain the rider upright. At high speeds, both of these work together to double and even triple the power requirements of an EUC. therefore, a 4000 watt ebike can accelerate and reach a much higher top speed with the same voltage and amperage because all the energy is used more efficiently towards forwards momentum.
@@Blox117 not true, the energy used to compensate the driver balance is very low in most circumstances. In EUC you just need a big torque reserve in every situation so you could intervene with the driver. If what you said is true the EUCs would be pretty inefficient which is not the case. I agree with air resistance.
Thanks a lot for the Shout Out. Appreciate it a lot!
And the video and what you told is absolutely on point in my view! Greetings Ulle
Hello Ulf, thank you for the knowledge you are sharing.
Greetings from Austria
Oh my goodness. You know it's SERIOUS when he says "Wrong Way" and does NOT say "🎵Wrrroooong waaayyy 🎶". Sorry to hear this happened, brother. Thank you for sharing.
Begode doing global safety recall? Nah, that's clearly company name change time.
They spun off Extreme Bull, just to be safe.
@Supernova more appropriate name would be the Extreme Bull Shit
I have Gotway MSP HS. Mileage is 12000km+. Riding 60-70km/h often (but not very continiously, it depends more on wind), winning drags vs cars on intersections. Riding for the whole year, in 30C+ and -15C -25C (25 Celsius below zero), in rain and snow (made additional waterproofing and glued some holes!!!), often steep hills and ladders/ramps, and jumping. Charging with 8A almost every day, multiple times (but at home always use standard 3A charger). During last very slow chill ride in +10C weather I made 60.5km, and had 54% (91.29V) of battery left, so the battery is not tired at all.
UPD: couple days ago started having problems with battery charging, disassembled, and one brick has 2-4 leaked cells. However they visually look totally fine. DONT BUY THIS SHIT.
@@ZorgKirill jinxed yourself there
@@ZorgKirill lol
@@HuyTran-sk3py ahahha really =DDD
Great video Adam ... People need to remember what you mentioned several times in this video ... if you're a Nik owner like me for example ... and you're a chill rider (less that 30mph/50km) ... you have no worries. If you've crashed your wheel, push it hard on hills all the time, or ride aggressively in cold weather, you may need to be concerned. I heard about Gotway fires back in May when I purchased my wheel ... common factors in all of these fires seems to be "aggressive riding styles" and/or "crashed wheels before the fire started". Since I'm not an aggressive rider ... and have had no crashes up to this point, I'm not worried in the least about owning my Gotway. Safe riding everyone.
One of our colleagues from Czech received a new Begode wheel that puffed and started to smoke when he was trying to start it for the first time. When he disassembled the cover he found out that cable harness was floating above the control board in a position where it shouldnt be. Probably transport vibrations and pinching of the cable made it to short with conductive heatsink of (voltage regulator I suspect?). Therefore the battery was shortened and the PCB traces evaporated (as a fuse lol). He was lucky that there was no fire. He photo documented the wheel and it was clearly seen that QA failed. He contacted the distributor and Begode. Someone would expect that they would deeply apologize for this experience and do everything they could for this type of failure but the communication wasnt going anywhere. I mean the distributor sent him new control board for replacement.
P.S. control board has so many through hole components without any fixing, cable harness floating around sharp edges of heat sink is a big quality issue
Well it's Gotway / Begode, so that's kinda part of the deal. You get lots of speed and power, less so on safety or quality.
Great information. Applies to high powered scooters as well. I'm glad my Vsett 11+ has a 2 minute limit for sport mode. Maybe a feature like this would greatly benefit EUCs?
Great feedback and yes we just needs to be aware of these things so we can make sure we take some basic precautions. I do have a basic smoke alarm where I store my wheels and I dont really want to run into issues at night. I also have a basic fire blanket and a small fire extinguisher for the house that works with electrical fires. This I got way before the wheels. Just good to have and know how to use it.
i agree that low battery resistance is what we should strive for. not high voltage.
i also agree that we should choose a battery that can sustain a high current while maintaining a cool temperature.
Shane Chen, original inventor of electric unicycles, choose the highest quality battery he could find, a123 cells. they could sustain 70 amps. there's youtube videos where people are short circuiting a123 cells, and the cell does not catch on fire. there's another video where a guy place an a123 cell in a fire, it popped, but does not catch on fire. around 2010, general motors chose LG over a123, huge mistake. now the volt is experiencing fires. a123 is no longer in business because people don't understand the value of safe, non-toxic batteries with a long lifespan . the only thing that people value is how far the vehicle can travel when the battery is new.
i also feel that the US national laboratories should perform safety/durability/lifespan tests on different brands of cells for public safety, also for environmental reasons.
Hope they update firmware ASAP to limit battery output, safety first over performance 100%! I’m going to watch this again later and take notes! Critical information we need to learn! Love this! Thank you!
It should be a choice. The highspeed riders need their fun
Actually power = speed * force so the 9:10 gotway battery current example doesnt look flawed to me. Therefore even during acceleration the motor current ( torque / force ) is high but current / power drawn from battery is increasing gradually. The worst for battery is high speed acceleration / high speed riding / riding against high wind / speed hill riding and especially when its hot. Accelerations around standstill are bad for Powerelectronics and motor but battery is "chilling".
Regarding battery rating. The cell datasheet rating needs to be taken with grain of salt. Depending on battery box configuration, inner cells have generally worse heat dissipation therefore will see more temperature and even running the recommended continuous current from manufacturer might be too much for inner cells.
I haven't seen many wheels inside.. but I thought that packs are built mostly with 2 layers configs. Then both are "outter". But still, temperature might be very important here, so good catch. (For sure important "during fail", but this is too late).
Speaking about current drawn. Everything depends on the weight/size/clothes of the rider.
Acceleration and hight speed and breaking from high speed are the most dangerous for heavier riders. Constant speed is rather "safe".
Severe wind "in the face" never helps (regardles it is speed or wind cause), but again it applies to bigger riders much more.
@@pajakgdynia even if you have 2 layer config the central cells will be more heat stressed but its a lot better than 3 layer or so.
My main point is the relation of power speed and force (torque). That Battery, Power electronics and motor have different envelopes and also efficiency map. Most of the slow speed / standstill operation is heavy on torque and therefore on motor or power electronics. Going slowly steep hill might in worst case fry the motor or Power electronics but battery wont see much current drawn. Going very fast on slight uphill might be drawing battery much but motor / power electronics might still have reserve
Mechanical power and electrical power are not the same thing.
@@chrisrathjan1501 basically the difference is in efficiency of each component which is quite high and therefore negligible for these assumptions. You could say that mechanical power = electrical power - losses (which are a magnitude lower)
@@LaggerSVK I mean amps X volts = watts.
This is why Ewheels put there own battery packs in some begode wheels like the RS.
Great great great video!
Also, what about cell-level fuses? Actually cells with CID (Current Interrupt Devices) like what EUCs use shouldn't catch on fire. If they do, that's because the CID has failed. So knowing that they don't work well, cell-level fuses would be cool. If a cell shorts out, even if the main fuse blows, that cell will suck all the energy from the others in parallel, possibly damaging them as well.
Well done! I'm a chill rider on my EX. I would like if I could weather proof the EX better. The big hole for the motor wire to allow suspension movement to the inner wheel well sucks. I'm going to use a foam filter inside the heatsink air duct to help keep some of the outside "outside"! My EX never gets hot. I rarely hear the fan. I did get a new control board after the original failed. The new one is a black board version. So far, so good. Had a great carving, to music, ride today. Almost 40 mph too. I'm too light and without side pads to accelerate too much. That's ok with me. Really love the suspension. Peace from Maine, USA...
My euc is now in "empty" room nothing what can burn is around stored EUC and i make "pullhook" in case of fire i can in 20 sec pull euc out of house to empty garden(no obstacles in exit route).
Door is reinforcment with 2mm iron plate against fire. And now i use Antifire blanket on each EUC. And when i charging often go check if sometnig not smell or is not normaly hot.
And fire sensor is must!
Not all riders live in big house with garen like me i understand.
Important rule is not charge any euc 24+ hours if EUC be with any contact with rain or pudles or extreme fog condition.
From my experience no real porblem on my MSP2500w Sherman V2 or KS16X(16x must be turn on and off after charging if not is in standby state and board got wery hot in some hours)
Did not know that about the 16X, but it disconnects from the app, weird.
16х after charging, don’t off Bluetooth.
@@fabiankehrer3645 Depends on control board version and firmware actual model not sufer this. My 16X is old Vanila motor with 1.5 control board and FW 1.0.7 this is unique setup becasue all other FW dowgrade power and aceleration curve more to safety side. My 16x is speed limited to 38km/h (tiltback) i always want have power reserve becasue i am 🐷.
@@inok4102 exactly 👍🏻 (new versions have fixed this but my 16x is old batch )
@@jansvoboda9778 Ok, thanks. Mine is only 3 Months old. Everything should be good.
I'm glad I got the 2700wh Nikola, it should be a safer wheel because of the headroom.
Still though.
"Should" is the word the company uses all the time....
Same cells /shrug
thanks for doing all the research and discussing these issues. Helpful content for sure, that may prevent issues for others in the future.
Just based on this alone, I'll modify how I ride my MSP speed - torquing less, and not driving it hard up inclines
If they install 50-60A fuses they need to limit the current draw first.
You don't want to have the fuse trigger when accelerating hard, or at high speeds.
There is a fantastic video about Tesla card fuses "Tesla Protection - Does it have a fuse?", and how they worked around the issue of the unwanted fuse triggering.
(Spoiler: They use pyrotechnic digital fuses. A small charge blows the fuse connection. And the trigger point can be digitally - dynamically adjusted. For example to not trigger when accelerating with ludicruse mode)
Another fun fact. Tesla electric cars use a classic Led-acid 12V battery.
Wait what 🤔... why does it need a old battery Technology with the lithium ion batteries?.. Well that's something to go find out :)
12V lead acid is no more in Teslas. Lookup latest ingineerix content
It is required to supply the relay to switch on the main battery and for the clock :D
@@andrzejz8316 Correct. Should specified that the older models did. But why they had it is interesting. Was used to run the onboard computer.
Now I kind of want to make a current monitoring datalogger and install it in my wheel.
Regarding fuses, they're usually quite a bit larger than the expected current draw to prevent them from blowing during a current spike under normal operation they're more there to break the circuit in case of a short condition.
Good idea! Let us know how It goes :)
Yes indeed that’s a thing I missed. I updated the info in the pinned comment
My wheel is the newest model of the RS HS. Thought I had the HT because that's what I ordered. I'm happy regardless of the mistake. But this model has been overhauled a bit with actual Samsung 21700 battery packs and they put on the display to see not only speed but power use and battery levels. Plus they actually waterproof ed a little better with rubber seals for bearing covers and better coating on the mother board. Although, of coarse I opened it up and siliconed a few things to actually waterproof more. That when I found the c30 sticker as apposed to the c38 sticker which I thought I had. And honestly I was very surprised to see extra care taken with this model. Like they actually listened or something silly like that.
if they accidentally sent you the wrong model, Id think you can swap for the c38 motor?
@@kenokrend4600 well I've already broken this one open and waterproofed it. I'm actually pretty happy. Although with the torque in this beast I could imagine the torque coming out of the HT.
It seems very likely some of the cells were in a severely discharged/low voltage state and the repeated disconnecting and reconnecting of the battery 3 times (to charge and discharge the capacitors as mentioned) might have drawn enough current quickly to fill the caps to put it over the edge, causing a cell to fail starting the chain reaction.
when your battery do not fully charge there's something wrong and you should IMMEDIATELY remove it and store in a safety place, lot of people are new to wheels and electronics in general, this is simply a human error :(
Not the first time, sorry that this happened once again :(
Tnx again for the informative video, appreciate as always man ;)
A video explaining how to see this in EUC world would be nice
I believe a certifying body like UL would have not certified any of these wheels. Recently, I walked my Sherman about 3 or 4 football fields and the wheel locked Up. It’s all mentioned in my post on the Sherman Facebook post I made. A few early comments mentioned static electricity causing issues and maybe it’s possible EM energy (though i never heard this elsewhere). True or not the assurance of a certified UL product (no I don’t work for them) would not only make a product safer but think about the cost built in to warrantee claims which could been lower, a lower overhead of customer services, intangible costs, law suit/lawyer costs plus other. Fires can be avoided by good design quality assurance and certification of safety and operability etc… I mean seriously we need quality and safety both but safety is a given.
Or go and grab an old Z10. The specs may be out of date, but Ninebot is the only company that has this certification
It’s just a matter of control. It is simply that if there is a cert it would be good for all of us because safety is a barrier to acceptance and a good way to ban EUCs. A misunderstanding is that this has to be an issue. safety is not costly it is just so much worse the cost of poor quality and unsafe devices.
Was at Green wheelz in Kabaty today and the mechanic said a brand new only ridden 10 km Nikola had a circuit board short from a broke wire. Hope Jacek can sort a replacement wheel. Rip Nikkie
What are the best practices for battery care when not riding much during the winter season? Would hate for this to combust just sitting around. Serious question. Thanks
This happened to my MSP HT, sadly it happned in my appartement. 14th October and currently homeless living with a friend, apartment ruined and most of my things will be thrown away, my cats sadly suffocated in the fire to. As far as I have figured it was a bad cell that started it. Not charging and not on, the fire started just after me and my roommate had woken up in the morning. Been riding for almost 10 years and this was my sixth machine. It ignited my old KS18L as well since it was parked next to it. I suffered 1, 2 and 3rd degree burn but was mostly lucky. My roommate was not so lucky and was sedated for three weeks with a lot of 3rd degree burns ,he can now walk around. I live on the first floor so we could escape through my bedroom window. And even after an event like this I will continue my wheeling next year.
Yeah that's insane until you can get a place to store your wheel safely and out of the way of possible casualties I suggest you rethink that plan. How old was the ms ht when it decided to try and kill you?
@@allysally9992 Almost two years. Had an incident two weeks prior when in really low speed coming of it to walk (litteraly standing on one leg geting ready to step of it) it hit a part of the next to building I did not see. It spun around and crashed, burnong the controlboard. I replaced the board and we checked the voltage of the cells, was nominal. Then, well
@@allysally9992 I have a balcony with lots of room, thinking of getting a few wielders I know to make a steel cage for it and hopefully make a smaller anti projectile cage for the battery packs for the next machine, fire blanket. Many ideas are racing through my head because I cant imagine never using one of these machines again.
Usually the cells have a lot smaller charge rating than discharge rating. So it should be more dangerous to brake hard.
Also, I find that 0.5C discharge rating interesting (in low temperatures). 1C is 5A for a 5000mAh cell. That makes 10A max continuously for the wheel (4p). However with the 3C rating of normal temperatures, you get 15A per cell = 60A total for the wheel. Then for short bursts I hear 5C is ok per cell. That makes 100A for the wheel. (1800Wh 100.8V pack)
7.3A per cell I don't understand where it came from. Is it a compromise between 2.5A and 15A? (0.5C and 3C)
Excellent info Adam, thankyou. I'm very much a "Marty Rider" myself, but will be setting my Darknessbot amperage alarms right away! 👍😎 Ride safe!🙏
as a rule of thumb a wheel owner needs to charge the wheel outside, or in a fireplace to be safe. Any metal cabinet, or fireproof container would not work inside as the toxic fumes could not vent out from your home.
Hi Adam! Thanks so much for doing this video and sharing this info. I remember very clearly when I first got into EUCs how the community was actively posting about fires caused by EUCs. The scariest part was not really having information about what behavior was causing them. I own all Gotway/Begode wheels but don't really intend to push them to the limit, especially as a heavier rider where I know limits can be reached quickly.
The Nikola+ fire was particularly scary as I own a Nikola+ AR, and I'm hoping that the larger battery pack plus continuing to ride my wheels chill can keep risks at a minimum. My other wheels, Tesla v2, MCM5V2, MTen3 are also fairly chill rides too. No speed demons here.
Thanks to your video though, I will no longer recommend buying used Gotway wheels previously pushed to their limits, and will spread word to friends who ride wheels in these categories. As a community, it's important to look out for one another.
if theyre gona use 18650s, sony vtc5s would be decent, theyre 25amp discharge. We use them to vape because although your only discharging a few seconds it can be between 20 and 30 amps for a single battery mod
Vtc6 is even better but they are expensive.
Molicel p42a's are currently cheaper, more powerful, safer(they provide quality cells to consumers, Samsung, LG etc never sell to consumers directly, the cells have been sourced from some unofficial channels) which Ewheels uses to make safer packs for customers as they replace the gotway packs entirely. 18650 are starting to fall behind in terms of production rates(more demand than supply) and that's why the sherman can't be produced anymore.
@@94e88 Production stared recently (still Abrams have priority), but now they use Samsung cells instead of chines Panasonic.
I have two Kingsong wheels but have never set the current alarm, I think that would be a good idea :-)
Well, CE and ISO and other certification things should take care of those stuff imho. Otherwise any engineer can sell a potential bomb.
Very important safety announcement for all PEV´s owners out there, as important this video can push brands to do it better and safer too. Thank you .
P.S. do I see a new tshirt design? " ride like Marty " :D
Thanks! We have a couple designs in our Kerch store on Spring ;) ride like Marty!
Thanks god he’s ok! Damn
great quote: "be more Marty!"
having riding Monster v1 since early 2016 until last year I agree 110% .. "feel the wheel" and gently work it into high speeds!... I do the same on my Sherman
Damn, when I said that those gotways were fire, I didn't think about that.
FROM TIMES SQUARE NEW YORK CITY !!! YOU GO GUY 1 LOVE & PEACE. !!! THANKS DO YOUR THING. 1
Any Shop should stop saling Gotway/Begode wheels until they have more quality and more saftey. I think if only when sales collapse, they won't learn before then.
The problem is also because of the people, the majority of the batteries which burn are people who ride under the rain whereas the wheels are not made for, even the wheels with IP are only weak IP dust and water projection
And these people will say "blah blah dude but I 've spend $3k on a wheel to commute to work or ride in any weather otherwise why would I buy it blah blah.."
wot?
Fuse is not meant to protect the battery, thats what the bms is for. Fuses protect the wires
Also these batteries should handle short burst of current even over the battery rating so hard acceleration in moderation is fine. Long burst like a hill as u mentioned would be very bad
Very good information. Thanks
They need to add emergency power kill switches too. My wheel got wedged under a hand rail and it was impossible to turn off with the main power button or the spin kill button. Just had to overpower the motor and rip the wheel out from the spot.
Regarding the 20amps statement, you should look up the difference between phase amps and battery amps.
He exactly did that by saying these numbers are not reaalistic to battery amps!
@@ullle66 you may also want to research this topic. Lower rpms yield less battery amps.
Very informative video thank you. How did you come up with 60A as maximum power draw for the EXN? It has 3 packs of 900wh so 7.3x6= 43.8A - - - - - please advise thanks
Thank you$ I would say 43.8 up to 60 as the cells can draw 10A when they were tested in separate tests. However they might get warm over time when this happens which isn’t helping with the lifespan of them.
The manufacturer actually states 15A per cell but only in temperatures not achievable for this pack or maybe just when you started riding on the wheel.
Sherman's fuse is 30 amps. Same as on V8F :D
sherman has 2 of em though
And 100V instead of 84 ;)
Thanks a lot! I am trying to understand English without subtitles consciously =D Almost unerstandable! Hello from St.Petersburg, Rus.
Give it some time, UA-cam will auto generate subtitles after a while.
you said a lot of things about begode's safety issue.... then you said in the end "Don't worry about it if you ride like Marty"
I treat my wheel as a vehicle. I have the nikola 100v. I dont even go over 30mph. So hopefully im safe.
13:22 low speed accelerations don't use a lot of amps, because the BLDC motor torque-rpm curve is basically linear (higher torque at low rpm, that means it doesn't need many amps to saturate the magnets so it means that per amp you get more torque, high speeds require more amps as the torque unit per amp goes down and the magnets aren't saturated as easily). A motor can't provide any more torque if the magnets are saturated with current and dumping more current just cooks mosfets and cables. Saturated magnets happen when you overpower a wheel, so you start skipping magnets and lose power output
My exn with my fat ass never draws over 50A when speeds are under 30kmh, once above 35 the current starts rising more, even up to 130A according to euc world, but my case stands.
low speed, high accelerations use the most amps because the back emf voltage is very low.
so leaning full forwards from a dead stop is really the hardest on them
@@Blox117 no, no, no, they do not for the aforementioned reasons. The back emf has very little effect here so the POTENTIAL for more amps is there, but it only draws as much as you ask from it and even then, the magnets become saturated which means even if you shoved more amps in to the motor, you'd get no more torque. At low speed the magnets become saturated at something like 55-65A, shoving more in achieves absolutely nothing. At high speed you can shove in 130A and the magnets could take more. High speed accelerations and maneuvers are the most demanding in terms of amperage.
@@94e88 this is how it works pal: at zero RPM the motor will draw as much current as the source will give it until electrical resistance from the windings causes it to lower. this does not change greatly for 0.1 or 1 RPM. it decreases gradually as RPM increases.
@@94e88 also, the amperage goes DOWN at higher speeds because of the back emf 'pushing' against the influx of current
Good work on this video # The EUC industry can engineer solutions for battery failure and the solutions will arrive faster because of public postings like this one.
Which company will guarantee to keep their batteries within performance limits? I can't guess which company will be first but I know it will happen when the Marketing department reminds everyone that product fires hurt profits while safety campaigns make good marketing material.
This is why the motor power to battery capacity ratio is so important. I wouldn't go much above 0.6.
(For intuition: I a tiny motor is not going to overpower a huge battery, where a powerful motor will overpower a tiny battery with ease.)
The situation could be ameliorated by inserting a super capacitor in the circuit to absorb and deliver overcurrents. That this solution has not been implemented is astonishing.
now I know why BearEbike's are much more expensive than other ebikes...
while we are mentioning gotway, i have an S18 V11 and V12 that all use the same LG cells
Leave Gotway - Sherman did...... THx mate for good info
Wamp wamp.
So silly. I'd even be worried with Monster pro.
They say "oh it should be a big enough pack the stress should be fine on the batteries."
Big yikes putting non high drain in high drain devices.
Adam top video and good info for all of us in this world of PEVs, thanks for your video and wasted hours to help with good info for our electric community
Financial
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Not what I was expecting.
I believe in the phone industry manufactures limit the performance of the phone as the battery ages.
I don't agree with these practices, however more control on quality and output with thought out designs. Will be good to see how this evolves.
Adam you are a good guy. If you want safer devices you have to evangelize UL certification as a solution as it is a solution readily available. China product exports should go through a certification process working with a certification body like UL starting at the design process. The case for this is that instead of the cost of bad quality, intangible costs, and safety costs is that we are already paying for bad quality. Additionally, as laws come under consideration (as the EUC community grows) a history of fires will come under discussion and EUCs will have yet another barrier to wide acceptance. Evangelizing means representing all of us which is really what you do anyway and you do it really well and with heart. If there is to be a spokesman for change it could be you.
We pay for it we shouldn't have to go chill wtf? Specially when the wheels nowadays cost 1-3k. If they can't take it they should implement a way where it's impossible to go to the danger zone as they casually deep their toes into
then buy a vehicle better suited to been ridden on the edge such as a motorcycle price is irrelevant, abusing any vehicle will lead to issues sooner than later
@@davewood1982 You don't hear bike manufacturers say _please ride it gently_ you are paying for something that's very expensive. Maybe where you're from it's cheap and you don't value it that much don't know but it's ridiculous to accept as a customer something less of it's value. The only people that ride it that hard would be fantomas and shibby time, if one of the wheels they had burned down ofc that would be expected, it's more of a surprise they haven't.
i feel that the US national laboratories should perform safety/durability/lifespan tests on different brands of cells for public safety, also for environmental reasons. batteries are too technical of a subject the public needs to know the difference between a safe long lasting cell and one that is prone to catching on fire.
Thank you very much for your video, always interesting and useful for our community
I will be more careful with my RS 19 HS when the wind is strong especially in the morning in winter
Excellent public service announcement. 👍🏼
Maybe Inmotion could jump in with a new wheel 😉
And you can do a showcase of battery quality.
Battery enclosure.
Dual battery systems with separate BMS for each pack.
just saying, every batterypack has to have its own bms anyways. Monster pro and sherman have 4 bms's each for example, 1800wh gotways have 2bms's and 2700wh gotways have 3 bms's in it.
You talking about drawing no more than 28 amps on a 1800wh battery, while me on my s18 constantly drawing to 30amps and sometimes my Max is even been 44 amps... 😅 and with mainly riding trails and jumps 2000 miles logged. I guess I should prepare for the worst 😑🥲
It’s anywhere between 30-40 amps for this LG chemistry. It also says 15Amp output but that’s only at a temperature which might not be achievable for the pack - 10-25 °C. Thanks for the feedback though! King Song S18 does have a too small battery but it also hab limits which help with that. With 3P it should be around 21-30Amp max continous or so
It's big trouble for user. Begode use only over voltage protection. Don't control low voltage.
Im assuming all this information also applies to Extreme Bull and the commander wheel correct? I know it’s not necessarily begode but begode uses some of their parts in the commander. Any thoughts?
We’re going to see about that. Veteran Sherman also uses similar boards but there’s clearly a limit on its power. The fuses are at 60 Amps. Let’s see what extreme bull has to offer and then we can tell what’s what. Extreme bull also does have a 8P pack so that’s better but for sure it could use some better cells.
It would be really expensive but I would like a battery made with some really high discharge cells. Something like a Samsung 40t 21700. You would loose some capacity but I would much rather have the crazy discharge amp of the cell. Then the cell is way overkill for what we are doing.
Wrong way you are one of my favorite Content creator I watched your videos all the time. Thank you for this video. I need your advice, Ive been planning to buy Mcm5 V2 the 460wh version .
I am planning to use it for content creation. I think my speed when I finally get the chance to ride mcm5 v2 will only be around 20km or 30km max but I am afraid that it might cause fire?
I was supposed to buy mcm5 a month ago but I did some research that Begode most of the time burn. Would you recommend MCM 5 V2 460wh version . to me? or I should rather choose the Inmotion 5f or the Kingsong 14m because there will be less chance that it will cause fiire ? Thank you
Thank you for giving it straight, Adam! And thank you for not singing "Wrooong Waaay" in the beginning. It became old real quick.
Great video Adam, one of my difficulties is to explain all of this to new and old riders
That wheel would have went right out the window when it started 🔥
Gotway engineering at its greatest.
12,500+km on my 16x and stil going strong. Have had to change the fuzes a couple times and need a new casing but mechanically it's been fantastic
Actually the only euc's that have ever FAILED on me out of my 11 so far have been my gotways
I’ve seen MSX’s and monsters with 10k+ miles. It can happen to any wheel, I’ve seen king songs catch on fire too.
@@Sparki0609 their is a clear difference between the 2.
Gotway have been making dodgy wheels for a very long time.
Those 2 company's are like chalk and cheese. 1 thrives to make the safest best quality euc on the market and the other is a dodgy company that only cares about the sales it gets from boasting the speed it achieves by removing all the safety features and has poor design and has dominated the euc failures for the last 6 years
I have experience both riding and selling both these brands and their is definitely a big difference
Don't be smug about people losing their wheels and suffering injuries. It's gross.
What type of fuse do you recommend?
I have this older Nik+ with 18650 cells. 3 packs with 1845Wh. Hope it is less risk for fire.
Drawing too much current from the cells doesn't cause damage.. imediately. The process is quite slow. Of course, if the wheel is beaten all the time, the degradation is much faster (this is almost the same as charging with high current, number of cycles decreases).
The most dangerous is to increase the capacity and connect batteries (*individual ones*) parallel. If one battery dies (shortcuts), the energy from "neighbours" causes heating up and in worst case fire. So remark about bigger batteries is.. I'd say questionable.. The same with internal resistance: higher resistance can potentially make wheel safer. 21700 have much higher capacity and connecting them might cause problems.
Of course having multiple branches (e.g. 4 battery packs) might be a solution (especially when connected with appropriate protection on the motherboard). Smart BMSes are crucial in such case (as reverse polarisation kills the cells almost immediately, what might cause high current between the packs.. such protection is missing in most cases). Smaller fuse in every branch would be simplest solution of course.
Speaking about performance.. There are better cells for such purpose as well (I don't remember the chemistry, but in most cases these are in black). Again capacity is not as great, but the current is much higher and temp ranges wider. Therefore.. either range at 20*C and "granny" speed or performance at all conditions. But currently no such choice at all.
We don't hear the EUC fire very often in Taiwan.
So I have an 100v msx 1860wh with panasonic ga cells. They're rated at 10 amps continuous, does that mean I have safely a max total draw of 60amps?
One of my packs said 24s3p.
Yes sir! However the apps can’t calculate the real power draw properly so it’s still a bit hit or miss. Still better than no alarms at all!
@@mr_wrongway Ok yeah for sure, it seems to me that 60 amps is still a pretty decent ceiling to have right? Better than the 21700 cells at least.
Seems to me that Gotway shot themselves in the foot by using 21700 cells especially since they cheaped out on their choice of cells.
@@Mpower31 Nothing wrong per se with 21700s, they are great cells, but using the highest capacity(so lowest power output, as the internal resistance is much higher=they produce more heat and drop more voltage) cells with low parallel groups really cuts the max safe power. An exn with 21700s will probably be a much safer wheel as it can easily do 60A continuous and bursts of 120A.
@@94e88 Sure ok, but in the 1800Wh wheels it wasn't a smart choice because you couldn't get max safe power given the LG cells they choose.
@@Mpower31 yeah, and that's where we see the problems. They should have gone with a higher performing cell across the board like a samsung 50E/G/S, Molicel m50a/p42a, "Vapcell g50"(which I think is a samsung rewrap). All of these can do a strong 10A with less voltage sag or they have a higher discharge rating upto 25A like on the 50S or an insane 45A max burst like the moli p42a(it also can handle 30A continuous with little heat).
Wouldnt something as simple as riding on the spot back and forth be over torquing the wheel? How do we update the firmware if they release an update ?
So a 40 amp alarm is safe on a Nik, or pushing max? Maybe 30 or 35 is more realistic safe? Were you saying the amp readings in darknessbot were unreliable or reasonable close? just curious
Problem is: GW is NOT showing battery amps…they show motor amps, which are totally different! Euc world tries to use a algorythm to make the amps more realistic to battery amps…i dont know if Darkness is trying that, too….
it seems like when they switched over to the 21700 from the 18650 cells more fires , 18650 cells lighter ,higher total discharge ,less fires ? Them Begode Euc need a lot of amps ,21700 can't support the out put
Pozdrawiam z grupki WSR 😎
Pozdro 😎⚡❤️
Ride smooth is the key.
Never heard of Begode
Extreme Bull is Gotway's only child now
I don’t climb hills, I don’t ride in cold or rain, I never go past 50kmh.
But I love to accelerate and brake aggressively ☹️
same here on my nikkie
I have Inmotion V8F. It should be in fire now according to your information. It has only 500 Wh battery. It can do easilly 3000W output. Voltage on that battery drops like crazy for more than 5V under load. I am amazed that this wheel never cut off on me. Bateries in these small wheels are stressed all the time. Now I have Tesla T3 with 3x bigger battery pack and the most I have ever done is 4500 W ( I have no power pads). Have you ever seen burning V8F? No? Maybe the power output from battery is not the main problem :-).
Hello! I burnt just a fuse on the V8F when doing strong inclines. I think the V8F has good limits and also 18650 cells with higher output.
#BeMarty
How about the new KingSong S-20? They are using LG M50Ts aswell while claiming a max power output of 7500W. That makes nearly 70A, the battery pack seems to be 30S 4P resulting in only around 30A of continous power. That really puts me off the S-20. What do you think?
I have a begode msx 2021 84v, i don t know english very well and so i don t understand a lot this video. Anyway, i use DarknessBot,
can you recommend any kind of alarm to avoid fire episodes?
Don't worry. There should be sanyo cells in MSX 2021, best 18650 cells that are on market. BP can easily handle 60A. You can ride like crazy on MSX and it will never drain more current than 60A.
@@tomashorazny7364 i hope it
I'm worried now. Your videos talked me into an MSP. I'm not an extreme rider, but I am a heavy rider. This wheel beeps at me around 30 kph which is a little annoying but this only started when I switched to the WheelLog app... I might just opt for a new S20 and hope for the best at this point maybe try to sell the MSP.. this is frustrating
I'm 260lbs in the RS ht. I also ride chill- no need to worry if you ride conservative.
I also bought brand new- so I'm sure of my wheels history. If all of this applies to you, you have nothing to worry about
Hey man. Quick question. I've been doing a lot of research on euc's and I honestly can't decide to go with a monster pro or commander. I have a commander pre-ordered but I am worried about over heating. Which unit would you choose? I value your opinion
I own a monster pro and it overheats also unless you do a mod. As for commander hs vs mpro, both top speed seem the same. I think the commander hs might be more torque than the mpro though however the mpro is the most stable wheel of every wheel so far even the veteran sherman but it's bad at sudden braking/torque. Rims (larger diameter) shatter like glass and are $700 to replace)
What type are the batteries? I think the 7.5A is for the 18650 type, not the 21700.
what do you consider high mileage on a wheel?
It really depends on the riding style.. it could be much to have super intense ride style for 10000km and very little to chill ride with 20000km mileage
@@mr_wrongway Ok. what about maintenance to the wheel other than battery? Only thing i can think of is keep the bearings lubed.
Hi. My battery also broken, but not fire. I think, that Begode must replace battery at ALL EUC with LG M50T
Electric Dreams fried both the Veteran Sherman and EXN doing a hill stress test.
i'd be curious to see how you'd add a smarter bms , if you ever do it.
I’ll do it before selling the wheel and checking the battery :) the battery service will do that for me though and I’ll probably just have some simple pics of that. HOWEVER on Wednesday I’ll be taking my MSP batteries for a check so we’ll see what’s what after 2500 miles of abuse.