ANOTHER NEW RTS ?!?!?!?!
Вставка
- Опубліковано 17 кві 2024
- David Kim, the Balance Designer for StarCraft 2, announces Uncapped Games' NEW RTS!
Documentary here: • Redefining the Game: A...
I'm probably LIVE right now, check me out:
→Twitch: / artosis
New video every 3rd day!
Let's reach 1000 likes!
If you want to support Artosis even more, become a member!
/ @artosistv
Editor: / @invisiblemenproduction
Music: / @jonasos3 - Ігри
![Почему число 37 встречается повсюду? [Veritasium]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/26meYYVE2Yg/mqdefault.jpg)
The guy in the chat who said "game designers should just combine the best features from wow, starcraft, skyrim, chess, flight simulator, dwarf fortress, risk, monopoly, xcom, call of duty, halo, and chainsawing grubs in gears of war into one game" is on to something.
The issue is that there is someone who thinks that the best part of flight simulator is taxing to the runway, and they are wrong.
Has the dude who wanted to have just one of each tech building considered playing Zerg?
Yeah, his name is scarlett
I frequently consider playing Zerg and then remember I can't because of how much I hate ZvZ (in either BW or SC2).
He is refering at the Lovt beta, when injecting larva was an auto cast ability for a few months
As well automatic mules and chrono boosting, which is was really stupid because terran has decide whether they need energy for scans or mules, and protoss has to constantly decide what they want chronoboosted. And Zerg macro would be WAAY to easy compared to other races, as Zerg doesn't have constantly add production structures as well as produce from those buildings constantly.
@@aaabatteries9948and the auto mules income was so nerfed terrans couldn’t get minerals anymore
And he's also being very disengenuous saying it was a 50/50 split.
You mentioning the 6 vs 12 worker differential is exactly why i prefer brood war today. The pacing in sc2 now is so much faster than when wings of libery came out and I really miss those days, even though the new units added in the 2 expansions are a lot of fun.
This actually sounds really promising. What makes a RTS game is 1. Decision-making at every stage in the game matters. 2. Decision-making is multi-tiered between where you focus your attention (broadly, micro and macro but these are multi-faceted), and 3. Mechanical skill of the player changes the potential of every unit and interaction. David Kim seems to get all of this (and Artosis echoing the sentiment).
Didn't know about this until 20 minutes ago, but I'm excited already!
#1 Is why I also love Magic the Gathering
#2 I would have said as: "Every decision must come with oppurtunity costs elsewhere" (which I think also applies to MtG)
#3 is the thing that really pushes something into an RTS for me (and makes me cry about how much I suck)
your don't need #3, see Supreme Commander. For a big rts mostly decision making should count, not how fast you click
I missed a key word there, what makes a "good" RTS. Personal taste, of course, but all these elements are present in Brood War which makes it the most exciting to watch. It's possible to make a game with all these factors that doesn't have the playability flaws of Brood War, but no game has really managed to come close except SC2, and SC2 is worse than BW at all of these.
Yep , you just described what makes BAD RTS and why RTS are not popular.
You are here only because you are "interested" in it. So your point only comes from people who want it to be that way. You are a very small minority.
Thats why most RTS fail. They appeal to PRO players and people who already intrested in competive 1v1 or 2v2 scene.
Thats why genre is dying. 70% of People who played SC2 never played PvP match. Only because those 70% players SC2 you had your "pro" scene and cybersports. Because even tho they didn't engage in PvP, they did watch it.
BUT THEY ONLY WATCHED IT BECAUSE THEY ENJOYED CAMPAING. They understand the basics , liked game enough to watch some pros play it. And because of them there is esports.
Now most rts nowdays appeal ONLY TO THE PROS. Thats like what less than 1% of potential audience? Well good luck trying to be succesful RTS game while only trying to please less than 1% of audience.
Those three statement you mention are not the FIRST THREE they are like last three. Game being good with good campaning and easy learning curve for casual is what ACTUALLY CREATES PRO SCENE where then you can apply things that important to that scene(macro, decisions, unit diversity, counter play etc etc.
I revisit SC1-2 and WC3 from year to year. But only to play campaing or custom maps. I never had an urge to play competive despite the fact i watch Arty casts and some SC2 tournaments. and most people are like that. They are not intersted in your 3 things, yet those people are what makes any game succesful.
@@Nagaimba well, saying that the arguments mentioned are just based on their own preferences, then argue based on your own preferences against that is pretty moot
Man I'm super stoked to see more.
Thank you for the video, looking forward to see it on my screen!
this sounds a lot like when blizzard described heroes of the storm. they skipped a lot of the "repetitive" stuff like lasthitting, gaining exp in 50min long matches and instead in hots you get right to the action. which is fun but I dont know if that will translate to reality how well it did with hots. hots is a very unique game and this game could be unique too
Also really telling that DK worked on hots as well as diablo 4.
@artosis out of curiosity did you try Totalbiscuit's axiom mod? it made a whole lot of things easier while keeping the core of starcraft
I played SC1 my entire childhood, daily. I never competed until the SC2 boom, and I laddered on there up to Diamondish. Then in the last half year I went back and replayed all of SC1 and 2 and afterwards screwed around in custom matches vs AI. SC2 went well. But then I set up an FFA vs several AIs in SC1. I never got over 70 supply, but I also was never in danger, but my hands were so full of things I was doing and wanted to do that the match stuck out to me and I can still recall it more than those recent SC2 custom matches.
When people worry about dumbing the game down the real issue is what decisions am I making and do they matter? MOBAs are RTS games where you just micro a single unit - but they had huge appeal as every decision tends to seem like it matters. SC2, less so. How am I going to lay out my buildings? Doesn't matter they're on a hot key. Grouping units? A handful of groups, if I'm being daring. SC1 you have to place those lings in a line so they all arrive on time. Remember Sharp placing all his production in a vertical stack? Its a decision he makes.
Do my choices matter in the game? This is the core of ALL games. MULES, Chronoboost, etc, aren't real fun choices.
Tech bros should be wary of doing interviews on the rooftop for fear of "unassigned" at Hooli vibes.
the first couple turns of Go feel so nice wish they could make an RTS game like that
Sounds like there is some sort of custom loadout involved at the start. You create your opening builds pre-game and start with some infrastructure and tech ready to go?
not a fan of that.
Artosis doesn't use dark theme UA-cam appearance. Eyes fried like medic using optic flare.
I don't think you can use dark mode unless you login
@@Lockieez I opened a private browsing window, checked UA-cam. Don't need login.
@@Lockieez Magic actions for youtube and other extensions also provide you with dark mode, well before youtube even started providing it itself.
The outcomes from actions may feel varied during the discovery process, but without new variables being added, there will come a point when efficiencies are maximized. Once these efficiencies are realized, players will move towards mastery of these efficiencies the meta will become stale, to some extent, just as in every single game ever. At this point the skill of mastery will determine the winner in this meta game, and other strategies will be forced to arise by the players with less mastery in order to win.
Magnus Carlsen is an excellent example of this. In many tournament matches he will take a less efficient strategy specifically to force the game into a relatively unknown state, where his opponent has less reference points due to lack of experience and practice within that state. Even if the opponent technically has a stronger and more favorable position, they dont have the same level of pattern recognition in the new, less experienced, game state to support their decision making. They are broken by the sudden onset of new and overwhelming decision tree possibilities, and this is where Magnus dominates.
Ultimately, given enough time, and lack of new variables, every game will be reduced to a efficient meta, and for some players like myself, this is part of the fun of all games, RTS, First person shooters, and even Poker.
By the way, Artosis if you read any of this and this comment, I love you, and have you played Beyond All Reason? Its a free RTS, Devs are amazing, the games is probably the most different RTS I ever played. In a way, they already figured out how to remove all the tidious macro aspects will still allowing for varied macro strategies. They also have the Best Micro mechanics of any RTS ever made with regards to mass units control, intricate mico is also extremely simplified yet allows for complex control beyond anything that currently exist.
All the RTS Steamers/Casters talking about the New shiny games coming out, and I have never seen them even mention this great game, accept for Winter.
Is there no gameplay footage?
How much funner would games be if you coulf right click and have your building autoproduce scvs
I was waiting to know what you did in California!
Holy shit your chat is so mean 💀
It's just banter. It's a free range chat. Arty calls us stupid bitch, we call him theoretical 2400.
His chat is downright feral. Artosis could go on and say something non-controversial like "Drinking water keeps you hydrated" and immediately be flooded with people screaming at him for selling out to big H2O, statistics of how many people die by drowing every year, and then a David Attenborough TTS donation talking about how much joy he gets by being waterboarded.
@@disiesgroto1881 And it's funny as fuck
They are just trolling lmao
To be fair, Artosis is pretty toxic at times and his chat is fitting for the kind of streamer he is. If you want an entirely different vibe, go check out Grubby's stream, extremely wholesome and polite. The chat more or less reflects the streamer.
I’m intrigued.
get ready for the battle pass boys
Ye all that stuff in ur 20 min video is cool. But to the real issue, is there banelings in it or no?
My only genuine question is if there are gonna be Void Rays in it
Does Nony stream?
has artosis tried "they are billions?"
David Kim - The Destroyer of SC2. The Creator of Broodlord/Infestor.
oh cool let's see it
It sounds like the dynamics of the early-game is as if everyone were playing the Mongols in AOE4, but that's just my interpretation.
I love that one of the harder concepts for artosis to define is "fun" lol.
If you play any pseudo-rts type game aka ones where it is just fighting or there is just a lot more fighting like Artosis is saying, those games feel identical every game. It doesn't matter that you fight with a 20 supply army and then a 120 supply army, it's the same thing. Even fighting with completely different compositions, you're just smashing armies into each other. The real different feeling games is the mini fighting that interrupt your macro. It's the stalkers that blink into your main while you're trying to make your big army or fighting for space with your unfinished army vs their unfinished army. It's the vultures delaying you big army push with widow mines. If that's the vision for this rts, then I'm not very optimistic about it
I'm not sure if that was their point, but I guess in this RTS we will have "a lot of decisions", so maybe on entire gameplay aspects, unit abilities, resources available on map etc. Dynamic map would be a cool and fresh thing.
But if they would, like Stormgate, recreate same gameplay from SC2 with "stalkers that blink into your main" to kill some workers than I would say "no, thank you." I don't get the idea of making clone of already existed games. If I want to play Starcraft I would play Starcraft (Brood War or 2).
I have to wonder whether you really like clicking buildings constantly, or whether it's something you just started with, got really good at, and take pride in. Personally, it's hard to sell me on the idea that clicking buildings is fun, but I can also see that if I'd worked 10's of thousands of hours at it and mastered it, I'd probably enjoy the feeling that comes with that mastery. I don't think that was a selling point of SC, so much as it was a technical limitation of the time.
good point
I'm one of those 'casuals' that people on this channel seem to like to shit on.
I'm much more interested in the strategy part of RTS than what most people consider "real-time" to mean.
Tedious "pixel hunting" of the exact right unit or building isn't compelling, but I can respect the pros that do it well.
Things like base layout, rushing to develop specific tech, and unit compositions are all compelling things to multi-task in a real time environment.
Splitting units in a battle is a cool tactics that is icing on the cake.
The "I like hard games because the units don't do what I told them to unless I baby them 8 times a second" view is someone who is eating too much icing IMO.
Guitar Hero is fun. Rhythm games are fun. Cook, Serve, Delicious is fun. There's a lot of fun to be had from mastering a mechanical skill.
@@andrewzmorris Fun is subjective, so I can't really argue. But I'd wager if you talked with the SC devs, they'd tell you that having the game be really hard to control wasn't really an intended feature. I'd bet they tried their best to make it as easy as possible to control, while still allowing for maximal control, given the constraints they were working under.
The thing about Brood War is that un-micro'd units are at like 30% strength, whereas in SC2 they are at 90%.
With no overkill and perfect pathfinding, the need to babysit the units are much lower.
If there is 10 things you need to do, BW only let's you do 3, so choose wisely; SC2 you are expected to do all 10 things in 2 seconds.
And another one! And another one, annnnd another one!!
I love how the blizz-sphere pundits and players have this cult of personality to just follow all ex-blizz employees to the edge of the universe and worship whatever they do. As if nobody else in the gaming space can possibly succeed at making a good RTS.
The second dude looked like a ventriloquist on phone screen for a hot minute hah
Please tell me there's scripted build order templates, where you can just adjust the blueprint on the fly
AND ANOTHER KICKSTARTER FUNDRAISER (MONEYTAKER) INCOMING!!
Got a feeling this game is what we were hoping Stormgate would be.
Same. Stormgate is basically a game that is capitalizing on SC2 dying rather than having anything new to offer. From nothing to Sc1 was a big leap, from Sc1 to 2 was also a big leap. SG doesn't even feel like a sidegrade, it feels like a straight up downgrade. Idk what this new game is supposed to be like, but if the "paradigm shift" part in the title lives up to the claim then this could be the game to go for.
No, it sounds like mobile game. No thanks.
@@tahmidt How is it a downgrade?
And don't say fucking art 😆
I'm hyped for SG but this one sounds interesting too, sounds like it's not as far down the pipeline tho. I'ma play all of these RTS 😀
I was super hyped about SG, but what I’ve seen so far doesn’t strike me as the “starcraft killer”. Will keep watching until Maru gets his 16th GSL
15:40 elsparkgg in your chat has it right
Its just trying to shitmax the update patches to engagement bait lol
can i invets in handicap games?
Seriously sounds like star wars Rebellion gameplay
12:07 Someone told them what opinion to have and they are repeating it. Also, they are prolly vegan and b12 deficiency. But thing is they need to pander to corporate, and pander to get more gamers into the genre. So they are trying to basically streamline it, then it'll feel like the micro is work instead of the macro earning the micro.
David Kim Pog
dude at 11:45 looks like he got hit by a train
So SwarmHosts happened under David Kim's watch?
He's still human like the rest of us 😆
Why isn't anyone talking about them being a Tencent subsidiary?
Why does it matter for the game?
Not that i play them that often but i like all the free games epic has given me 🤷♂️🤷♂️, tencent isnt a barrier to entry just means have caution
I feel like nowadays, every company is so F'd up in some way that less and less people are caring.
Reminder that David Kim determined that "many of the coolest moments in starcraft 2 comes from worker harassment"
9:47 / 20:05 IF YOU MESS WITH BROODWAR YOU MESS WITH RT
Great news, hopefully it doesn't look like StormGate
🤞 So many games go with the generic, slightly cartoony, painted look of LOL, DOTA, SC2 etc. The "inoffensive, broad appeal, but little character or uniqueness" of art styles.
What about increasing the unit size so it's awesome. Rts isn't hard unless your trying to rank up. Most people just play for fun unlike us who play for hate.
Are there banelings?
Then Artosis, of all people, wouldn't say the game is fun.
lol love the up front mea culpa that u make cameo in vid. watched this with tasteless, Im hype because these guys GET what RTS gameplay should be like, but also how as tempo can make players feel.
Am I the only one that liked 12 worker starts? I just enjoyed the start of the game not being so slow.
can you play halo wars 2 and compare the two? Halo Wars 2 seems to do exactly what hes talking about. definitely an underrated gem.
Is this the dave kim from the goldbergs ^.^ hahahaha
Cool
i think its funny that he said that having to put larva on hatcheries with your queen is tedious but in the HotS campaign you can literally right click the icon and it automatically does it for you. its not like it wasnt possible they just decided not to allow it in MP for whatever reason. me personally im waiting for aoe 2 to go on sale because i got aoe 3 a long time ago and i hate how massive the units are in that game (especially ships) but aoe 2 just looks so classic and easy to maintain
8:02 I was pretty sure David Kim was referring to the patch where he gave Zergs auto inject. I don't think the feedback was a 50-50 split lmao, unless zerg was half the playerbase.
The glimpse we see at 9:03 hints on it being yet another cell-shaded cartoonish looking game.
ah shit
Which can work, if you lean into your style the right way, like War3, Wind Waker, No More Heroes, etc. But whether they manage that...
That is just an image in a web browser though...
And? Nothing wrong with styalized graphics, they age way better with the years, the game is clearly Sci-fi themed if you look through the trailer of the random art.
@@avidcule I’m just not a fan of the cartoon style all games have these days
that's why I always prefered WC3 to Starcraft 2.
One thing I'm tired about with the games is the static nature of the maps and bases. SC1 had all these wacky zany base layouts where the minerals and gas were not optimally situated. It helped the map feel a little more alive. I don't need random generation, but why does each base need to be in a semi circle with one entrance? The rule is you need one or two gases! Yeah, said who? "But this build order/matchup requires/needs it!" And I'm saying that's part of the design issue at hand.
Take LoL, a Moba. All builds have passive resource generation. Some gold is earned by the actions of the team. Some is from farming, some is from an item, some from player kills.
When I see an RTS game announced and they talk about "Buildings" at all, I get a tad bored. "base building" is fun in general, but aside from production.
Half the games I played in SC1 as a casual kid was simply base defense games where you just held out forever. I always thought the first rescue mission in SC1 was cool and I clocked many hours on Defend the Temple, or 3v5 Insane AI. (SC2's defense missions tended to be about defending units being scripted into existence from a base you couldn't interact with.) Wasn't that cool, I have to defend many waves but I could slowly build up a counterattack force to disrupt the enemy. The French did that in German offensives in WW1, hold with as little as possible and wait to strike back. SC2 defense missions put the enemy reinforcements off map. There was no counterplay. You couldn't scout ahead except for the areas the game wanted you to know about. Not fun.
Base building is fun. We all want to build a giant fortress that holds evil at bay, either with a pile of pixels, some wood we found in the woods, the stones and bricks of Constantinople, and even digital game assets. Base building is inherently fun.
HOWEVER, to extend, this does not simply meaning "Buildings=Good". There are games without Buildings where you do this. What is the classic problem of FPS games? Campers and Snipers. Players want to stake a claim to land and control it. They want to set up a machine gun and give allies a safe area and deny it to the enemy.
Really, RTS designers need to think what makes actual war interesting and bring that to games.
Maybe Rts developers should unite all RTS players first before attracting from other genres. Imaging BW +SC2+AOE+CnC and whatever. This is the first step. Too many developers are trying to attract players from other genres and thus diluting and achieving nothing.
I'm guessing they saw the vitriol towards stormgate's alpha visuals and that's why they've opted not to show anything from the game itself despite pros being able to play it.
Yeah, they know how braindead average gamers are.
also, games in a early stage look very bad, most of the time developers play and test their game with textures or models mising that will be added later in development.
@@Gonzalo_105 Yeah. Imo they made a mistake letting everyone play the game in the Steam NEXT Fest because at that point people thought it was a demo rather than an unfinished, unpolished product.
Heh, those "tedious tasks forced into the game" were one of the main pain points as to why I dropped the game
It's the reason I don't like playing zerg in sc2. Injecting and spreading creep are just toil. Mules and chrono you aren't really punished that hard for saving up though and you can choose to use that energy for something else so it feels more like a micro/macro trade off decision.
Finally a conversation about video games that holds my attention. My favorite part, "hang on, let me check my NDA..."
If Artosis can say "it was very very fun" without taking a fraction of a second to readjust his existential values...
I don't think it's a good idea... will they truly make something new in RTS like Northgard did? Or they will just repeat 90% things from SC2 like Stormgate and ZeroSpace did? I understand that devs were working on SC2, that's cool, but you know, SC2 was made in 2010. SC1 was made in 1998. Age of Empires was made... Warcraft 2 and 3, Age of Mythology, Empire Earth etc. etc.
Are they going to make anything new or just repeat what was done before?
can't risk too much change or failure.
@@HermannTheGreat Indie games risk very often and sometimes they win a lot. I'm talking about RTS game called Northgard but also Among Us, Minecraft, Vallheim etc. I hope that Godsworn will be also a successfull RTS, it's in early access right now. All of these games are something unique and that made them successful.
I think that making clones of already existed games is a 100% failure. Why play Stormgate when SC2 is still online? What interesting Stormgate has to offer?
Always excited about new RTS games but wanted to say for me SC1 and COH1 are the two models I'd like to see nearly replicated in terms of mechanics. I see RTS branching like MOBA did. RTS survival mode, Mass Army, No Base, Hybrid one or same(dif times) player controls only Macr/Micro. Great games but I think RTS is about real - unit responsiveness / vs / human responsiveness - Time - Resourcing logistics Army - Strategy - calculating the time it takes to move a unit / Rush no Rush/ Blue Turtle Terran Shell - Terran #Rigged vs Zerg btw. -- SC1 & COH1 kinda hit the sweet spot
I've always wanted to see an RTS that included logistics with proper supply lines, FOBs, and staging before execution.
To the extent I'm imagining would probably require two player coop though.
My biggest issue with all of these new rts games, is not one of them have created a game that feels even close to as smooth as StarCraft feels to play, I don't feel like I can micro the same, the engagements are not as complex (I got to dia in zerospace in that beta and still not close), and it feels more like how AOE feels than how sc feels, and I like the feeling of SC.
I wonder if he's trying to get around certain things that are just inevitable. There's always going to be some degree of repetition.
hype
hoping for the best but feels like seeing david kim is a bad sign
Gotta accept it, the multitasking in RTS drives people away, people enjoy controlling large armies, exploring the map, gathering resources to make a badass high cost unit, but all those things at the same time while you're being attacked is not for everyone.
lets be honest, RTS is not "fun." Its a challenge. And that's fine
If that's what you believe then you are fundamentally saying that nobody enjoys playing rts games. Multitasking is the core of what rts is, it is as important to rts as aiming your gun is in fps games. The core gameplay loop of rts games is built around multitasking.
I am not saying that building up huge armies is not fun, it can be fun, but that does not define the core gameplay loop of a game.
So you are describing anything but an RTS.
Multitasking is at the core of the game.
@@frogfinance4605 RTS is VERY fun for players like me. It's not fun for everyone.
@@dorkmoonblade4315 Yeah, people probably 'don't fundamentally enjoy RTS games'. That's why every new project that promises to 'save RTS and bring it back to the mainstream' flops long-term. You try to bring in new players, you alienate the old. You try to bring in both, they might stick around for a bit, then the new players move on to something else and the old go back to what they used to play. I play a lot of 'dead genres' and they all suffer from this problem. Not saying genre revivals can't happen, but there's good reason to be skeptical
when you lower the ceeling of the game, games looks boring even on high levels, thats why bw its soo fun to watch,if u wanna play easy rts games go play mobas
With all these devs making games for it now, is RTS not a dead genre anymore? 🤔
Really looking forward to seeing more.
As a side note: you have some of the worst Twitch chatters I have ever seen. I love your content, but that is probably the biggest reasons I only watch you on YT
Sc2 unit design was a massive failure and the Units were the reason why alot of people cite quitting Sc2. For me Teleporting BCs was the final straw, I really hope the Unit Designers keep this in mind when developing.
I think there are a lot of cool unit designs, and I like warping bcs, but my favourite unti is centry
unit clumping and no high ground advantage are a couple of the biggest issues with SC2 design vs. SC1. The units, while definitely interesting, have overall worse design. But I think it's less of a problem than the previous 2 problems. A lot of other things would fall into place if you fixed the clumping/high ground advantage.
There was an obvious "we need to make different units than BW"-mentality running amok.
Personally, I like the Liberator, but I think all other new units are worse than their BW counterpart.
@@HasekuraIsuna stalkers are much more fun and versatile than rtarded dragoons, for example, medivacs are much better than medics, and so on, so I don't agree with you.
@@OmgtiredStalkers were actually a rare W. But medivacs are a MASSIVE L. Combining medics and drop ships into one unit? Broken. Not to mention there are already waaaaay too many air units in the game And they can boost? It's a circus
SC2 replaced organic macro base building stuff with stupid embarassing homework "mechanics"
I trust David Kim
David Kim is clueless.
I trust David Kim.
I need a challenge from a new RTS game. I've been playing RTS since 1996 and i've already seen and done all the tricks in all their hundreds of permutations.
I need an RTS game that has new challenges to tackle. Like simcity building with citizen population management, or 4-6 resources or more to juggle at one time, or logistics on very large maps with realistic damage numbers that force you to use infantry and armor in the right terrain or lose them quickly
Anything new that brings new challenges to the genre.
Age of empires maybe? Also the total annihilation type games like supreme commander to some extent?
@@georgehelyar There are tons of other RTS that are in their own way just as demanding as SC1/2, this guy just wants something as creative and well designed as SC1/2 and it's most likely never going to happen again.
Please please please not another scifi setting. Fantasy please!
Gaben wasn't in the video because it would give it away, but this is actually Half-Life 3; it's an RTS.
Holy shit that chat is made up of people who've suffered repeated brain injuries.
Actual cancer
Of course, they're still playing SC1/SC2 15-20 years later, they're mal-adjusted people who haven't moved on in life.
The "natural" macro of SC1 is much more tedious and "pointless" I think, the way the ysolved it in SC2 with the chrono/larvae/mules is much better. And you still keep part of the SC1 macro where you actually have to have control groups and monitor your production, etc.
agree 100%
I could see the argument that the SC2 things are tedious because the rewards from doing them are so high that you would almost never choose to not do them in order to try getting an advantage elsewhere.
Interesting gameplay comes from making decisions and balancing the oppurtunity costs IMO, I don't see these offering real decisions.
I'm guessing what he means by "natural macro" in SC1 is babying workers and individual buildings to do jobs?
So I can see his point that in SC1 the gap between a good/great macro player is going to be a lot wider than SC2.
But yea, it still seems like a "tedious" way to create that gap rather than the result of an actual decision for a player to make.
Is it more ideal for the player to not have a mechanical affinity for being good at macro vs micro but be given the choice on which to focus on game to game? Does the ideal macro'ing feel mechanically similar to micro'ing or the other way around?
I always felt like macro should be strategy focused and micro should be tactics focused...
Completely disagree, the reason SC1 micro works is because it creates a natural disadvantage endgame when controlling multiple bases and capped armies, which pushes macro and multi-tasking to be more important skills, while also reducing win more scenarios. In sc2 macro it's much easier to reach skill cap.
@@Aggnog People call it micro because you're micro managing (your army) then just for parity they called it macro because those things are supposed to be more 'big picture' decisions. What you're talking about is micromanaging your macro as being a great balancer in the endgame.
So technically it wouldn't be good macro, it's just more good micro in more locations. So as the scale of the game gets larger the budget for player attention gets more stretched.
If that's the goal, that's fine, but it isn't macro you're aiming for it's more micro.
It is an artificial increase of 'skill' that isn't fun in itself. What is the point of clicking on each unit individually? I think SC2 handles it much better as it allows you to focus on the more fun parts, like engaging or micro, while still keeping the multitasking high.
I am all for keeping it mechanically challenging, but if you can shift that difficulty and requirement elsewhere where it would be more fun to play and more fun to watch, I'm all for it. I'm not sure that the SC1 mechanics didn't come mostly out of technical limitation, they weren't designed with pro-gamer mentality in mind, that happened by accident.
On the other hand, there absolutely needs to be elements of micromanaging your macro of some form in any RTS. So if they make it even more "automated" it would probably suck, unless the shift to micro is much stronger that it offsets that location hotkey/group production.
The biggest mistake they make is talking about multiplayer RTS. Never going to success.
Artosis is clueless
it will never amount to starcraft. so artosis aint gonna play it. this hype is moot.
These guys acting like "Homeworld: Deserts of Kharak" doesnt exist already 😌
(this is kinda a joke - its impossible to actually tell what their game is going to be like. I HOPE theyre focusing on making a more "fun and creative" game than "ruthless competetive" that all other RTS do)
They should alwaysa showcase gameplay, especially in an RTS. At the absolute very least, give an explanation of what the game is. Talking is fine but without actual game, it shows you don't have confidence imo.
I'm guessing a reason for starting with the vision is to see how RTS players respond, and based on that construct the game reveal in such a way that it addresses player concerns, skepticism and assumptions. They appear to be quite concerned about backlash as a result of them breaking with conventions - probably want to avoid recreating the nightmare reveal of Diablo IV or CnC Rivals.
That will obviously come June 7th at the summer game fest when the game is revealed.
@@avidcule I really hoped they'd show at least some, minimal even. some screenshots would suffice.
@@markototev modern marketing seems to be releasing something announcing they are releasing a trailer about something.
@@Picaroon9 lol indeed, announcing an announcement. I hate it haha
David Kim did an awful job at Blizzard. Every SC2 player hated him. So I am not that excited for this.
Wow, so the guy who made the worst balance in RTS history is going to make a "paradigm shift game". Can't wait for this scam to die immediately.
Holy shit your chat is toxic
No its not.
I truly hope that this wave of attempting to make RTS more mainstream will be successful, however I’m afraid we are losing what makes RTS so great… keeping these LoL idiots in bronze league
Yep mass appeal for RTS is the same as mass appeal for MMORPGs. The game is gonna suck for hardcore players. Personally I can't stand games like AoE4 and honestly even SC2 is not my cup of tea though I did play it for it's first few years. I prefer SC1 and AoE2.
@@Ziegfried82 By saying you prefer SC1 just puts you in the minority of players that they are clearly not catering too nor do they care about. It's like people who wanted Smash Bros. to go back to Melee style or people who still play Runescape.
What a joke the guy who is responsible for broodlord infestor is making a RTS
Well no one is tying you down and forcing you to play it.
@@avidcule however I hope I'm still allowed to make an observation
I don't trust David Kim.
Why not? Not disagreeing with you, I just don't know who he is and curious why you think that.
@@davidm2031 He's the former game balance designer for starcraft II. I trust no one from the SCII dev team, I just despise that game entirely and what it did to my favorite RTS. It let down and divided most of the fan base at a critical time for the RTS genre at the height of Brood War's popularity, allowing the MOBA genre to run away with audience without much of a fight. Not saying MOBA wouldn't have creamed RTS anyway, but the game was so lame that it didn't stand a shadow of a chance to challenge the rise of MOBAs. We all live in the post apocalyptic RTS timeline that the shadow of SCII's failure has delivered us.
@@nafetI'm don't disagree with anything you said but how much of that is this David Kim dudes fault? Blizzards issues seemed like they came from upper management. And ya SC2 is not as good as BW but to say SC2 killed RTS isn't true. did you just want no one to ever release an RTS again? That's the problem, SC2 was just good enough to take away fans from BW but not good enough to supplant it. BW is in great shape for a game of that age. Unfortunately all games die at some point.
This video literally explains why it won’t be like SC2.
@@nafetdelusional BS, SC2 was amazing
Why don't they use AI to balance the game?
because they want it to be good
How would that even work lmao?
It took a Google backed AI to play SC2 at as Ok-ish level, but it still made dumb mistakes when limited, and did the impossible when unleashed.
@@Appletank8 Google AI had thousands of APM, it was very bad.
Idt ai can balance human actions - ever see ai vs ai in StarCraft - they get to like 5000 apm that is impossible for people. Also humans can cheese and break ai strats as well so idk how it would work
This game is not for RTS people.
David Kim is a hack and releasing a 30 minute video about your game with ZERO gameplay is peak hubris.
"Brilliant" game design - cut this, cut that. Another simplified game in which, instead of playing, players will choose their strategies. If I was interested in something like that, I would play card games, not RTS.
weird to make all these assumptions when you have literally not seen a second of gameplay and artosis is vouching for it
I know Artosis keeps saying it but having a game look bad ass and cool is pretty important. Its why i didnt like WC3 and starcraft 2 was only good on higher graphics. I know hes crazy hardcore I was GM level in Wings but holy shit if i am staring at a game for 8 hours a day i want it to be cool. Same reason i dont and many dont like league or fortnite. I know some like them but they are lame.
What's lame is having to spend 8 hours a day to become good at a game, not the best... but just competitive. Once you get your first full time adult job, you will understand.
@HermannTheGreat "tell me you've never been actually good at starcraft without telling me."
@@HermannTheGreat maybe now that you have a full time job you can stop being "competitive" and try to have fun.