Today we're looking at many of the new profiles spoiled by Corvus Belli to tide us over while we wait for the (pushed back to December) release of N5. We won't be looking at Kestrel or JSA, as both are large enough sets to warrant their own videos, but we will otherwise be covering a little bit of something for everyone, and doing our best to peer into the future of N5 and not evaluate any of these as if they were just hot-dropped straight into N4. However, if you are interested in longform takes about how N5 profiles obsolete or out-perform N4 models, you can find those being delivered in real time here: tinyurl.com/c577e97d (On an unrelated note, some of the conversational tone for this video may come across as a little stilted or disjointed. The power went out at my house a couple of times while recording - I've attempted to keep the vide as intact as possible.)
As a primarily N4 player who only played a handful of games back in N3, it's -very funny- to think of people looking at the Shakush and thinking it would be OP. Then you remember an N3 Lizard was 87pts without TacAware and crits used to auto-wound.
I like Bangbombs. Looking the calculator, the odds are slightly different and more favorable for the dodger than providing a -3 penalty and gives a greater chance of success. I am also happy that they are on at least one version of Ninja and hopefully are on others. Edit: I hope N5 comes soon. I am loving all the changes. Thank you again for walking us through your thoughts. I would love to hear your feelings on how PanO is changing in N5.
I was thinking that the switchers would come in a box of 2+2 but 1+1 in same size box as, say, the daemonist probably makes more sense. It is quite weird and most likely not amazing but it seems like a fun profile. If all else fails but the minis are good they'll be nice proxies.
Bangbomb isn't redundant. It is a piece of equipment, so it could show up in the new reinforcement equipment mechanic, or in things like panoplies or booty rolls, where Dodge (-3) couldn't.
I also think it's occupying a slightly different niche because it doesn't help against templates, especially since there will probably be less templates in N5.
@@shobooknight Dodge (-X) fills that same niche - because it imposes a penalty in F2F rolls, it has no effect against templates. The only time Bangbomb is actually meaningfully different is when you declare it against a hacking attack, which technically allows it to trigger (since Bangbomb works when targeted by a non-template attack). That is such a niche differentiation that I don't personally think it warrants a separate rule for players to remember.
Sforza has done good work for me but that's as a TJC player who regularly faces off against Ariadnan alpha striking bears/dogs where the holomask/holoprojector/viral rifle combo has a very specific deterrent effect - that's a pretty edge use case though where I know the kind of list I'm likely going to be facing and my opponents know that I use that counter, not making a case for him in general: a meme pick like you said. Makes enough of an excuse to have the model, which I like, so rounds up to a win for me...
Something that the addition of more BS-3 and Warhorse made me think about was the potential for Corvus Belli to start diversifying the skills for what we'd traditionally consider to be an "apex gunfighter." Mimetism and its countermeasure in MSV, have long been the standard -- with certain exceptions -- but the return of Full Auto L2, the spread of Marksmanship, and the appearance of countermeasure skills like Warhorse and Albedo (which I've heard counters Marksmanship, although I don't have a source on that), means that profile diversity can be extended so far beyond Mim + MSV on a BS13 gun. The Hetkari is a perfect example of this doctrine in action, and while it's quite pushed, I'm still very excited to see what that means for upcoming and existing profiles in N5.
It's already happenned: - Albedo punishes MSV - BS attack -3 punishes non-Warhorse - Nanoscreen + no cover has proliferated across a ton of units we've seen so far as a mimetism-lite ( notably Hatamoto ), is countered by Mxmanship. - Mimetism of course, gets punished by MSV. It's becoming much more of a game of rock-paper-scissors instead of do you have MSV/mimetism?
It also maybe will result in an increase in the value of purely high-stat shooters. I think BS15 units in N4 suffered a lot from it being a very expensive stat but also worse than the prolific and cheaper BS13 mim-3 msv1 shooter type in most situations.
The Patroclus vs Ayyar point around being out of cover is essentially the same. Patroclus has nanoscreen and surprise -3, but Ayyar has surprise -6, so it nets off the same, unless shooting at a combat instinct unit.
In any given hot takes video there'll inevitably be some half-baked concept that I don't quite articulate properly - no surprise it's one about holoprojector! The underlying point that I failed to fully articulate when comparing the Ayyar and Patroclus is that there are really two important considerations your opponent is making when responding to holoprojection movement. The first is the risk they take as a result of any immediate die rolls (either a face to face roll or, alternatively, an unopposed roll). The Ayyar and Patrocles are fairly equivalent here - I'd say the Ayyar Thunderbolt is probably advantaged because B3 is B3, but with Patroclus' template and continuous it is close. The second consideration, though, is the advantage your opponent gets from cancelling the holoprojector state regardless of the outcome of the ARO in question. This is where the nanoscreen and Patroclus' native higher speed give him an edge. The Ayyar is simultaneously less threatening and easier to compromise while making an attack run, whereas Patroclus is both more threatening moving in straight lines toward a target and quite likely to escape a position where his echoes are cancelled. Overall I still quite like the Thunderbolt Ayyar, and I can potentially see getting some work from some of the other profiles, but Patroclus does what I want from that kind of multi-role piece that's just edging jank without actually falling into it.
Interesting note is the new K2's are linkaabke, in a fireteam with the Hoplite & Makhe. So potentially u could get a decent group 2 rampart sweeper with a hoplite for much cheaper then u could previously, or an efficent ARO with Makhe missile that can help u move the K2 to the midfiled for mine shenanigans. Feels like there is more potential to them then at a first glance
The trick will be getting that two-trooper fireteam bonus, which at least based on the information we currently have would mean two Hoplites or two Makhe.
Adil: deactivator reactivates the Disco baller and that is rare from what we have seen. Seems interesting. K2 is short for Greek “Golden Maidens”. From our Greek WCs. The fire bat doesn’t seem to live up to its fluff. I expected NWI or better armor. Agree about aerial skill and engineer. I wonder how tables will change to adapt to including vehicles in the future. The Redeye does Feel better than the others. I am a real fan of speed and movement options. I would like to hear your thoughts on Shindenbutai power parity problems compared to KCF for example Hektari are just…damn.
I think the Ayyar still looks like trash. It would have to be 7 pts cheaper for me to even consider. I'm fine being wrong on this lol. Edit: I think Patroclus looks semi-maybe-useable. But probably not. 2nd Edit: I'm underwhelmed with the Long Wang. The lack of ability to fight any kind of armor is pretty crippling. I do not want to be paying 72+ pts for a model that's forced to punch down. 3rd Edit: I like Crane Adil. Expensive yes, but just a pretty killer profile overall. Critically, I don't feel like I'm wasting a bunch of pts on profile bloat. I'm pretty happy to pay for what he's got. 4th Edit: I think the K2 Auxiliars are dope. Just access to 11 pt regular orders in Aleph is pretty nice. The fact that they're useful disruption and corner guards is really nice. 5th Edit: I'm totally underwhelmed by both the Firebat and the Feiquan. Currently they're a "never take this ever" piece. However I don't have a good grasp of how they're maneuverability works, so perhaps I'm wrong.
I think the K2 able to join Steel Phalanx Fireteams might make taking that link team more viable. If only slightly. I just really want taking the Hoplite to be more attractive 😂
It's unlikely - not impossible, but unlikely - that the K2 will contribute to link bonuses for those teams. So while it certainly won't hurt being able to link it with an engineer, it might still be hard to get work from the link. That said, Hoplites are a *prime* candidate for an N5 glow-up.
Good bye Ghazi-jammer/Ayyar hidden deployment meme-pick! I hardly knew you. Inlcuding the two games where nobody noticed you and you stayed in character and nobody went in burst viral pistol range, and that one game where you did good, crossed the board using Holo Projector tricks and wisley rolled a games worth of crits in five orders. :-|
One argument for “bangbombs” is with the new fastball rule, it means they can put rules on equipment then hand those out, and I suspect we’d see those in fastball caches. Im sure they could have “dodge(-3)” in a cache, but it’s definitely less flavourful than pulling flashbangs out of a cache. Is that a good thing or worth it? Probably not.
Some of these skill names could really use some workshopping. Warhorse counters BS Attack (-3)? There's such a disconnect between what it's called and what it does. Maybe something like "Firefight Expert" would be more intuitive.
'Warhorse' is just a synonym for 'veteran', which is what the skill is mostly meant to represent. Cool under fire, doesn't break discipline when the Lt inevitably gets shot, etc. 'Disciplined' would probably have been just as good but also very generic.
Today we're looking at many of the new profiles spoiled by Corvus Belli to tide us over while we wait for the (pushed back to December) release of N5. We won't be looking at Kestrel or JSA, as both are large enough sets to warrant their own videos, but we will otherwise be covering a little bit of something for everyone, and doing our best to peer into the future of N5 and not evaluate any of these as if they were just hot-dropped straight into N4.
However, if you are interested in longform takes about how N5 profiles obsolete or out-perform N4 models, you can find those being delivered in real time here: tinyurl.com/c577e97d
(On an unrelated note, some of the conversational tone for this video may come across as a little stilted or disjointed. The power went out at my house a couple of times while recording - I've attempted to keep the vide as intact as possible.)
If CB's delay to N5 results in more Mild Speculation videos, I think I can tolerate the wait.
I really appreciate the lessons on how to consider the profiles
Thank you for more speculation! Helps with delay anxiety.
FYI, the Feiquan pronunciation is closer to "Faye Chuen" in English.
As a primarily N4 player who only played a handful of games back in N3, it's -very funny- to think of people looking at the Shakush and thinking it would be OP.
Then you remember an N3 Lizard was 87pts without TacAware and crits used to auto-wound.
I like Bangbombs. Looking the calculator, the odds are slightly different and more favorable for the dodger than providing a -3 penalty and gives a greater chance of success. I am also happy that they are on at least one version of Ninja and hopefully are on others.
Edit: I hope N5 comes soon. I am loving all the changes. Thank you again for walking us through your thoughts. I would love to hear your feelings on how PanO is changing in N5.
I was thinking that the switchers would come in a box of 2+2 but 1+1 in same size box as, say, the daemonist probably makes more sense. It is quite weird and most likely not amazing but it seems like a fun profile. If all else fails but the minis are good they'll be nice proxies.
Bangbomb isn't redundant. It is a piece of equipment, so it could show up in the new reinforcement equipment mechanic, or in things like panoplies or booty rolls, where Dodge (-3) couldn't.
I also think it's occupying a slightly different niche because it doesn't help against templates, especially since there will probably be less templates in N5.
@@shobooknight Dodge (-X) fills that same niche - because it imposes a penalty in F2F rolls, it has no effect against templates. The only time Bangbomb is actually meaningfully different is when you declare it against a hacking attack, which technically allows it to trigger (since Bangbomb works when targeted by a non-template attack). That is such a niche differentiation that I don't personally think it warrants a separate rule for players to remember.
Sforza has done good work for me but that's as a TJC player who regularly faces off against Ariadnan alpha striking bears/dogs where the holomask/holoprojector/viral rifle combo has a very specific deterrent effect - that's a pretty edge use case though where I know the kind of list I'm likely going to be facing and my opponents know that I use that counter, not making a case for him in general: a meme pick like you said. Makes enough of an excuse to have the model, which I like, so rounds up to a win for me...
I can imagine world where feiquan is terror of midfield camo. I really like this mobility sensor
Something that the addition of more BS-3 and Warhorse made me think about was the potential for Corvus Belli to start diversifying the skills for what we'd traditionally consider to be an "apex gunfighter." Mimetism and its countermeasure in MSV, have long been the standard -- with certain exceptions -- but the return of Full Auto L2, the spread of Marksmanship, and the appearance of countermeasure skills like Warhorse and Albedo (which I've heard counters Marksmanship, although I don't have a source on that), means that profile diversity can be extended so far beyond Mim + MSV on a BS13 gun. The Hetkari is a perfect example of this doctrine in action, and while it's quite pushed, I'm still very excited to see what that means for upcoming and existing profiles in N5.
Yes, albedo now functions like mimetism that only affects troops with MSV/Marksmanship.
It's already happenned:
- Albedo punishes MSV
- BS attack -3 punishes non-Warhorse
- Nanoscreen + no cover has proliferated across a ton of units we've seen so far as a mimetism-lite ( notably Hatamoto ), is countered by Mxmanship.
- Mimetism of course, gets punished by MSV.
It's becoming much more of a game of rock-paper-scissors instead of do you have MSV/mimetism?
It also maybe will result in an increase in the value of purely high-stat shooters. I think BS15 units in N4 suffered a lot from it being a very expensive stat but also worse than the prolific and cheaper BS13 mim-3 msv1 shooter type in most situations.
Agree, I think this is a great series of changes that makes "apex gunfighters" a little more rock paper scissors
I really want TAG with ancillary peripheral that appears when tag loses wound. Parts of TAG are falling down and start following big robot :D
The Patroclus vs Ayyar point around being out of cover is essentially the same. Patroclus has nanoscreen and surprise -3, but Ayyar has surprise -6, so it nets off the same, unless shooting at a combat instinct unit.
In any given hot takes video there'll inevitably be some half-baked concept that I don't quite articulate properly - no surprise it's one about holoprojector!
The underlying point that I failed to fully articulate when comparing the Ayyar and Patroclus is that there are really two important considerations your opponent is making when responding to holoprojection movement. The first is the risk they take as a result of any immediate die rolls (either a face to face roll or, alternatively, an unopposed roll). The Ayyar and Patrocles are fairly equivalent here - I'd say the Ayyar Thunderbolt is probably advantaged because B3 is B3, but with Patroclus' template and continuous it is close.
The second consideration, though, is the advantage your opponent gets from cancelling the holoprojector state regardless of the outcome of the ARO in question. This is where the nanoscreen and Patroclus' native higher speed give him an edge. The Ayyar is simultaneously less threatening and easier to compromise while making an attack run, whereas Patroclus is both more threatening moving in straight lines toward a target and quite likely to escape a position where his echoes are cancelled.
Overall I still quite like the Thunderbolt Ayyar, and I can potentially see getting some work from some of the other profiles, but Patroclus does what I want from that kind of multi-role piece that's just edging jank without actually falling into it.
If the Longwang model doesn't come with some truck nuts I will riot.
Interesting note is the new K2's are linkaabke, in a fireteam with the Hoplite & Makhe.
So potentially u could get a decent group 2 rampart sweeper with a hoplite for much cheaper then u could previously, or an efficent ARO with Makhe missile that can help u move the K2 to the midfiled for mine shenanigans. Feels like there is more potential to them then at a first glance
The trick will be getting that two-trooper fireteam bonus, which at least based on the information we currently have would mean two Hoplites or two Makhe.
Adil: deactivator reactivates the Disco baller and that is rare from what we have seen. Seems interesting.
K2 is short for Greek “Golden Maidens”. From our Greek WCs.
The fire bat doesn’t seem to live up to its fluff. I expected NWI or better armor.
Agree about aerial skill and engineer.
I wonder how tables will change to adapt to including vehicles in the future.
The Redeye does Feel better than the others. I am a real fan of speed and movement options.
I would like to hear your thoughts on Shindenbutai power parity problems compared to KCF for example
Hektari are just…damn.
I hadn't heard of the Kourai Khryseai before - thanks really useful context. Thanks mate :)
long wang jokes missing :( especially after Kum jokes (episode)
The problem with a long wang is that it's low-hanging fruit.
I think the Ayyar still looks like trash. It would have to be 7 pts cheaper for me to even consider. I'm fine being wrong on this lol.
Edit: I think Patroclus looks semi-maybe-useable. But probably not.
2nd Edit: I'm underwhelmed with the Long Wang. The lack of ability to fight any kind of armor is pretty crippling. I do not want to be paying 72+ pts for a model that's forced to punch down.
3rd Edit: I like Crane Adil. Expensive yes, but just a pretty killer profile overall. Critically, I don't feel like I'm wasting a bunch of pts on profile bloat. I'm pretty happy to pay for what he's got.
4th Edit: I think the K2 Auxiliars are dope. Just access to 11 pt regular orders in Aleph is pretty nice. The fact that they're useful disruption and corner guards is really nice.
5th Edit: I'm totally underwhelmed by both the Firebat and the Feiquan. Currently they're a "never take this ever" piece. However I don't have a good grasp of how they're maneuverability works, so perhaps I'm wrong.
Dare we hope for a 6th edit?
I think the K2 able to join Steel Phalanx Fireteams might make taking that link team more viable. If only slightly.
I just really want taking the Hoplite to be more attractive 😂
It's unlikely - not impossible, but unlikely - that the K2 will contribute to link bonuses for those teams. So while it certainly won't hurt being able to link it with an engineer, it might still be hard to get work from the link. That said, Hoplites are a *prime* candidate for an N5 glow-up.
I want that link to be more competitive with the myrmidon link more than anything. A Hoplite glow up would also be amazing
Good bye Ghazi-jammer/Ayyar hidden deployment meme-pick! I hardly knew you. Inlcuding the two games where nobody noticed you and you stayed in character and nobody went in burst viral pistol range, and that one game where you did good, crossed the board using Holo Projector tricks and wisley rolled a games worth of crits in five orders. :-|
Hay screw you I loved sniffers but yeh bang bomb is dumb
Do we know what BS Attack (SR -1) does?
Survivability Rating -1. The equivalent of the old BS Attack (+1 Damage).
@@R0bertShepherd Thanks
One argument for “bangbombs” is with the new fastball rule, it means they can put rules on equipment then hand those out, and I suspect we’d see those in fastball caches.
Im sure they could have “dodge(-3)” in a cache, but it’s definitely less flavourful than pulling flashbangs out of a cache.
Is that a good thing or worth it? Probably not.
Some of these skill names could really use some workshopping. Warhorse counters BS Attack (-3)? There's such a disconnect between what it's called and what it does. Maybe something like "Firefight Expert" would be more intuitive.
'Warhorse' is just a synonym for 'veteran', which is what the skill is mostly meant to represent. Cool under fire, doesn't break discipline when the Lt inevitably gets shot, etc.
'Disciplined' would probably have been just as good but also very generic.
Replacing Veteran so it's usef uniquely I'm here for.