I know that the exhaust crossover is a power sapper for a race engine but I also remember fixing drivability concerns for people by replacing a stuck open or missing exhaust "flapper valve" so the carb could heat up in cold weather.
Having a choke on your carb, can do the same thing 👍 also its not just for race engines. Imagine idling in 95 degree weather, cooling system is already maxed out and now you're putting 400 degree exhaust heat into your intake track feeding your engine. Its fine if its always sub 40 degrees where you live but just add a little more timing and use a choke and you're already there.
Thanks for the tutorial! I have a 413 wedge (supposedly out of a 72 motor home) in my 78 Power Wagon and it has the 452 heads on it and I'm just researching what I have and what my options are with "upgrades". Thanks again!
72 is a good year because they already have the hardened seats. I'm not sure what the factory compression ratio is on those but 6.7 litters is no joke.
88-90cc's for the open chamber is very typical. The open chamber area is about 0.1" deep. You can have many aluminum heads in open chamber configuration, where the odd side of the chamber has been machined 0.1" deep. The difference between them and the closed chamber versions is typically 4cc. The '72 and up 440 CR was changed by a shorter piston, not the chamber. And same in other big blocks, there were different versions like truck engines etc, and the differencies were in the pistons. Open chambers came already in 1968. Your valve sizes are mostly wrong. The 440 heads have a 1.74" exhaust valve, source heads have 2.14 intake and 1.81 exhaust. The '68 and later BB heads are clearly better than the earlier heads, except maybe for the Max Wedge. The 440 source head is pretty much like a ported later model head with bigger vales, cast in. And it's actually pretty much the same as Edelbrock E-Street or RPM heads. Your 361 is a small engine, so it may react differently to the chamber size increase than a 440 would. The effect of the cc difference is greater, but that pretty much depends of the CR you start with. The lower it is in the beginning, the less it matters.
Excellent info except for 1 thing you mentioned. Through independant testing, it was found that the 440 source heads produced less power than both the RPM and E street heads by edelbrock. It outperformed all of the stock heads, but not by much.
@@vipottaja Eric Weingartner did a test on 440 Source and Edelbrock Performer heads back in January. Both videos are easy to find on UA-cam. The 440 Source were CNC machined head so I was seriously disappointed in their performance. I definitely wouldn't spend the money it from 440 Source. I have a set on a 440 in my Roadrunner that were just mildly ported and cleaned up but they weren't flowed before or after so I don't know the numbers. But the 440 Source heads Eric tested had weak low lift flow and were only about 265 cfm at .500. The Edelbrocks were similar. Of course a stock set of 906's, 346's, 452's will only flow about 220 cfm so they are an improvement and of course aluminum is always better. I just wonder why they didn't use a more modern combustion chamber design like Trick Flows or Indy? But for the price they are hard to beat.
I have a 361 in a 66 charger that I am contemplating keeping and rebuilding it. I wonder how the 361 would perform with turbo or a torqstorm supercharger
The 361 is a good candidate for boost. The problem is that you'll need to make sure to tear it down to add ring gap to the pistons or they will break pretty easy with a turbo. If you break a piston, replacements are pretty hard to find
Exhaust passage/crossover... more than a smog thing [although there may be some benefits] the real need for this seems to derive from straight leg boosters. Because they sit a little high in the venturi, velocity/signal is not quite as strong and fuel droplet size tends to be larger - manifold heat helps boost % vapor, which makes life easier for spark to do its thing. Go to a downleg or annular boosters when there is no crossover, generally.
You're right, it serves a few purposes. The first is the exhaust crossover to supply exhaust gases to the EGR valve. The second, like you mentioned, is to heat the intake to help speed up atomization of the fuel during cold weather. The third would be to supply heat to the choke like you also mentioned. The only important one is the 2nd one but the intake naturally gets hot from normal engine operation so although you'll suffer a bit in cold weather, after the engine is fully warmed up, its fine.
I have a 440 with 906 heads with work done. I want some aluminum heads. And I'm lookin at 440 source heads. What heads do u perfer to help wake my 440 up. It's not a stock engine.. everything is upgraded and high performance. Except my 906 cast iron heads.
Hey man, late reply, sorry about that. The 440 source heads are just aluminum stock heads basically. If you want good heads you'll have to look at edelbrocks or something fancier. The 440 source heads are good if you plan to port them but out of the box they're only a hair better than stock.
The closed chamber heads were also used on the 62 thru 64 Max wedge engines, early 440 high perf engines (66 & 67) and 63 thru 65 383 high perf engines. 66 up 383s used the 906 head. The marine/ industrial 361 was a unique engine. The water pump attached to the cylinder heads as well as the block, the heads & intake manifold were unique to the application as well. The camshaft was gear driven instead of chain driven and the camshaft & distributor were reverse rotation. The block & heads were cast out of high nickel iron and were extremely durable. They were designed to take a likkin & keep on tickin, they would run all day at nearly full throttle.
Hey Nightwrencher, did you know that the 440 source heads are "Closed Chamber" design like the factory 915 heads, thats why they don't have the extra space below the valve
They installed fine and it ran 6 passes back to back at the track without issues. My cam is too small to take advantage of the heads but I'll be upgrading it soon
The 440stealth heads are a nice budget upgrade to stock heads for street builds, I would bet that if you take the 361steel crank and some 383 hi-po rods and kb flattop pistons and put them in a 400 block (KB pistons make a slightly bigger compression hight piston for the 400) to get the compression ratio up use your intake manifold and cam you would have an engine that rev's like a small block and the power of a big block, be cool to find out since you have most of the engine except block and the 361has same stroke as the 400/383,oh don't forget the KB pistons with the slightly taller compression hight and stronger rods
The stealth heads work well for someone in my situation. Current heads are no good and you want to trim weight and have better cooling. $1000 for a set of ready to go heads isnt bad. I had a set of 440 heads refreshed and it was $300. They wernt even the good ones.
I have a 361 "bored .060 over for 372ci" I'm building for my 67 Barracuda But my original heads have cast rocker towers, and the casting numbers on the heads are 2463200 but my engine came out of a 63 Chrysler Newport they have 2.08" intake and 1.74" Exhaust Valves Same as the 4006452 (440) heads, the original 361 heads you have are 1961-1962 model year.
1/2 the weight of cast iron. Combined with a 440source aluminum water pump assembly, aluminum intake and header. You can say you put that engine on a diet.
Not to be nit picky but your info on EGR is off. The exhaust cross over port on the stock heads is for cold start intake heating and would heat the bimetal choke pull off spring. It was not used for Exhaust Gas Recirculation until the early to mid 70's. EGR was to lower NOx emissions by metering exhaust gas in to the intake manifold and on in to the combustion chamber. There it acted as an inert gas to prevent detonation under lean fuel conditions. This meant the engine could run lower fuel/air ratio and not ping and when the engine pings NOx in the exhaust is at its highest. Enough of that. I have always wanted to find a 58 350 crank as it has a the shortest stroke of all the Big Blocks.Then mate it to a 400 bloc which has the largest bore. That combo should turn some serious RPM's for a Big Block. Nice job on the video!
So much bad information The 361 was not the smallest big block and just about everything you said about the big block heads was incorrect. Try looking up correct information before spewing garbage.
You need to clean out your ears hombre. Litterally say the 350 is the smallest starting at 0:10. If you have anything else to complain about, just let me know 👍
LOL no rocket science here ..bolt them all to a running engine and dyno the shit instead of just yak yak yak its piss easy to just stand there and guess LOL
Engine masters already tested these heads and Eric Weingartner already flow tested these heads. Theres no guessing, I'm just repeating the data that has already been produced.
I know that the exhaust crossover is a power sapper for a race engine but I also remember fixing drivability concerns for people by replacing a stuck open or missing exhaust "flapper valve" so the carb could heat up in cold weather.
Having a choke on your carb, can do the same thing 👍 also its not just for race engines. Imagine idling in 95 degree weather, cooling system is already maxed out and now you're putting 400 degree exhaust heat into your intake track feeding your engine. Its fine if its always sub 40 degrees where you live but just add a little more timing and use a choke and you're already there.
Ford used alot of heat operated chokes - just trouble waiting to happen.
Thanks for the tutorial! I have a 413 wedge (supposedly out of a 72 motor home) in my 78 Power Wagon and it has the 452 heads on it and I'm just researching what I have and what my options are with "upgrades". Thanks again!
72 is a good year because they already have the hardened seats. I'm not sure what the factory compression ratio is on those but 6.7 litters is no joke.
If that 413 is a ribbed block you may be able to bore to 440
88-90cc's for the open chamber is very typical. The open chamber area is about 0.1" deep. You can have many aluminum heads in open chamber configuration, where the odd side of the chamber has been machined 0.1" deep. The difference between them and the closed chamber versions is typically 4cc. The '72 and up 440 CR was changed by a shorter piston, not the chamber. And same in other big blocks, there were different versions like truck engines etc, and the differencies were in the pistons. Open chambers came already in 1968. Your valve sizes are mostly wrong. The 440 heads have a 1.74" exhaust valve, source heads have 2.14 intake and 1.81 exhaust. The '68 and later BB heads are clearly better than the earlier heads, except maybe for the Max Wedge. The 440 source head is pretty much like a ported later model head with bigger vales, cast in. And it's actually pretty much the same as Edelbrock E-Street or RPM heads. Your 361 is a small engine, so it may react differently to the chamber size increase than a 440 would. The effect of the cc difference is greater, but that pretty much depends of the CR you start with. The lower it is in the beginning, the less it matters.
Excellent info except for 1 thing you mentioned. Through independant testing, it was found that the 440 source heads produced less power than both the RPM and E street heads by edelbrock. It outperformed all of the stock heads, but not by much.
@@NightWrencher Yes, they are more "coarse", but the design is the same, you can use the same CNC programs etc.
@@vipottaja Eric Weingartner did a test on 440 Source and Edelbrock Performer heads back in January. Both videos are easy to find on UA-cam. The 440 Source were CNC machined head so I was seriously disappointed in their performance. I definitely wouldn't spend the money it from 440 Source. I have a set on a 440 in my Roadrunner that were just mildly ported and cleaned up but they weren't flowed before or after so I don't know the numbers. But the 440 Source heads Eric tested had weak low lift flow and were only about 265 cfm at .500. The Edelbrocks were similar. Of course a stock set of 906's, 346's, 452's will only flow about 220 cfm so they are an improvement and of course aluminum is always better. I just wonder why they didn't use a more modern combustion chamber design like Trick Flows or Indy? But for the price they are hard to beat.
I have a 361 in a 66 charger that I am contemplating keeping and rebuilding it. I wonder how the 361 would perform with turbo or a torqstorm supercharger
The 361 is a good candidate for boost. The problem is that you'll need to make sure to tear it down to add ring gap to the pistons or they will break pretty easy with a turbo. If you break a piston, replacements are pretty hard to find
Exhaust passage/crossover... more than a smog thing [although there may be some benefits] the real need for this seems to derive from straight leg boosters. Because they sit a little high in the venturi, velocity/signal is not quite as strong and fuel droplet size tends to be larger - manifold heat helps boost % vapor, which makes life easier for spark to do its thing. Go to a downleg or annular boosters when there is no crossover, generally.
You're right, it serves a few purposes. The first is the exhaust crossover to supply exhaust gases to the EGR valve. The second, like you mentioned, is to heat the intake to help speed up atomization of the fuel during cold weather. The third would be to supply heat to the choke like you also mentioned. The only important one is the 2nd one but the intake naturally gets hot from normal engine operation so although you'll suffer a bit in cold weather, after the engine is fully warmed up, its fine.
You didn't mention the 360 marine engine.
I dont know what engine youre talking about. The 360 small block?
I have a 440 with 906 heads with work done. I want some aluminum heads. And I'm lookin at 440 source heads. What heads do u perfer to help wake my 440 up. It's not a stock engine.. everything is upgraded and high performance. Except my 906 cast iron heads.
Hey man, late reply, sorry about that. The 440 source heads are just aluminum stock heads basically. If you want good heads you'll have to look at edelbrocks or something fancier. The 440 source heads are good if you plan to port them but out of the box they're only a hair better than stock.
The closed chamber heads were also used on the 62 thru 64 Max wedge engines, early 440 high perf engines (66 & 67) and 63 thru 65 383 high perf engines. 66 up 383s used the 906 head. The marine/ industrial 361 was a unique engine. The water pump attached to the cylinder heads as well as the block, the heads & intake manifold were unique to the application as well. The camshaft was gear driven instead of chain driven and the camshaft & distributor were reverse rotation. The block & heads were cast out of high nickel iron and were extremely durable. They were designed to take a likkin & keep on tickin, they would run all day at nearly full throttle.
The 906 head was not introduced on any engine until 1968
@@robflammia4716 That's right, last year for the closed chamber head was 67. Been a while since I have worked on a big block.
Hey Nightwrencher, did you know that the 440 source heads are "Closed Chamber" design like the factory 915 heads, thats why they don't have the extra space below the valve
I think I mention something like that in this video. Or maybe it was in the mopar vs ls head video. But either way, thanks!
How'd the heads work out?
They installed fine and it ran 6 passes back to back at the track without issues. My cam is too small to take advantage of the heads but I'll be upgrading it soon
The 440stealth heads are a nice budget upgrade to stock heads for street builds, I would bet that if you take the 361steel crank and some 383 hi-po rods and kb flattop pistons and put them in a 400 block (KB pistons make a slightly bigger compression hight piston for the 400) to get the compression ratio up use your intake manifold and cam you would have an engine that rev's like a small block and the power of a big block, be cool to find out since you have most of the engine except block and the 361has same stroke as the 400/383,oh don't forget the KB pistons with the slightly taller compression hight and stronger rods
Plus if you don't like the combo you can still put the 361 back together
The stealth heads work well for someone in my situation. Current heads are no good and you want to trim weight and have better cooling. $1000 for a set of ready to go heads isnt bad. I had a set of 440 heads refreshed and it was $300. They wernt even the good ones.
I have a 361 "bored .060 over for 372ci" I'm building for my 67 Barracuda But my original heads have cast rocker towers, and the casting numbers on the heads are 2463200 but my engine came out of a 63 Chrysler Newport they have 2.08" intake and 1.74" Exhaust Valves Same as the 4006452 (440) heads, the original 361 heads you have are 1961-1962 model year.
Yeah yours would flow much nicer than mine for sure 👍
1/2 the weight of cast iron. Combined with a 440source aluminum water pump assembly, aluminum intake and header. You can say you put that engine on a diet.
Ur going deep!! #Mopar
👍💪
You havnt seen nothing yet 😎 I can build mopars too you know!
Not to be nit picky but your info on EGR is off. The exhaust cross over port on the stock heads is for cold start intake heating and would heat the bimetal choke pull off spring. It was not used for Exhaust Gas Recirculation until the early to mid 70's. EGR was to lower NOx emissions by metering exhaust gas in to the intake manifold and on in to the combustion chamber. There it acted as an inert gas to prevent detonation under lean fuel conditions. This meant the engine could run lower fuel/air ratio and not ping and when the engine pings NOx in the exhaust is at its highest. Enough of that. I have always wanted to find a 58 350 crank as it has a the shortest stroke of all the Big Blocks.Then mate it to a 400 bloc which has the largest bore. That combo should turn some serious RPM's for a Big Block. Nice job on the video!
440 Source heads have 80cc closed chambers AND 2.14 / 1.81 valves !
The 452s are 88cc
I've seen several different reports but the consensus is 88-92ccs
Out of box CNC pair of newer heads and use a cam that makes more peak torque tighter LSA and lift to take advantage of the head
The 452 casting heads had 1.74 exhaust valves. NOT 1.8.
Not because of unleaded, gas crunch lowered performance
So much bad information
The 361 was not the smallest big block and just about everything you said about the big block heads was incorrect. Try looking up correct information before spewing garbage.
You need to clean out your ears hombre. Litterally say the 350 is the smallest starting at 0:10. If you have anything else to complain about, just let me know 👍
@@NightWrencher lol people suck man
LOL no rocket science here ..bolt them all to a running engine and dyno the shit instead of just yak yak yak its piss easy to just stand there and guess LOL
Engine masters already tested these heads and Eric Weingartner already flow tested these heads. Theres no guessing, I'm just repeating the data that has already been produced.