Thank you for this video. Today, I cranked my -69 Beetle and got a little smoke, which comes from the ignition switch. Ignition switch is an old original one. I also have an electrical fuel pump, so what you said in the video is that the pump creates maybe some amps (maybe max 8A) ->>more to the ignition circuit. -> That explains my issue! (Old ignition switch with worse connections plus extra amps from the fuel pump) Total about 18A for the old ignition switch. Thank you! I will have THE garage time at the next weekend. I will buy a good quality relay and will install this hot starter relay system. Also, I will replace the old ignition switch.
That relay keeps 7-9 amps is not going through the key switch, that relay will insure you never have a ignition switch never heats up or burns the contacts. I have need using these for years on every car. Get a one for the 356 also . You will not regret this mod. I also add a momentary switch on the left side of the engine compartment to crank the engine when kneeling in the back. A good back up and makes working on them easier. There may be a yellow wire In the engine harness for this momentary switch.
Exactly, the relay reduces the current to 0.25 A. This mod is even more important for the 356. At 6V the current is most likely double and switches are even more $$
This information is so usefull.. Mk3 Golfs always have the electrical part of the ignition dieing. by being fried... this is somthing i never would have thought off!
Good video. I already have a starter relay on my car, but I’m thinking of doing this to my headlights, so that the load does not go through headlight switch.
It's too bad the starter solenoids on VW Beetles and 50-70's GM cars are all wound wrong where they need so many amps to engage the starter solenoid. The cure I have done for years is to bend the fork inside the starter to allow the plunger to stay in the solenoid housing a fraction farther which allows the magnetic attraction to attract the plunger better, curing the "silent starter" problem. Occasionally a relay will not fix that problem so the best way is to bend the fork, BUT NOT MUCH. Believe what you want but this works.
Thank for the ❤️. The relay method is the easiest method to cure almost every VW silent starter problem. But occasionally I ran across one that would not engage (silent) even when crossing terminals right on the solenoid. In those cases I dismantled the starter and bent the fork a fraction so the plunger was in the solenoid housing farther. The electro magnetism is stronger then. People that didn't know this procedure bought new starters thinking this would fix it only to have the problem re-occur. One thing to watch for is if the fork is bent too much the starter can be mechanically locked in and will keep cranking when the ig. key is released. To test for that problem, pull the ig. coil wire so the engine can't start, try to start the engine, and if it won't disengage re-install the coil wire. When the engine fires the starter will be released. Rebend the fork slightly back and test again. GM starters can be bench tested for this lock-in problem but not VW's. I hope I can save some people from wasting money on a new starter with this reply.😊
This is really interesting and good info. Not sure why Bosch didn't do this originally. I guess they didn't expect the cars to be around this long. I mostly like the relay to save the ignition switch from the high current, but your method would probably do the same.
The length of time since these VW cars were new isn't quite a relevant thing. This happened on cars only five or six years old. My first Beetle was that age when I bought it in 1969 and had the silent starter problem. I learned real quick to not let the ig. switch go back to the run position. That way I could turn the ign. switch to start many times in a row without going all the way to "off". Couple years later as a full time mechanic I found the same problem in GM vehicles, and that is where I discovered that bending the fork fixed them. I then thought about VW cars in which this happened REAL often. I had done the relay cure, which I thought of on my own 😔and slightly later bent the fork on a few VW-s. Like I say, the relay is easier because bending the fork correctly is kind of a fine line procedure to get it right. Thank you for your understanding as so many mechanics resent other things they thought they had "down pat". ☺️😊😊
Good, but be sure that you could fit the relay on the engine starter! Lots of vibration, thermical conditions in a magnetic environment could destroy the relay? We usually see it fit on the body, in fresh box. Et comme nous disons en France : Prudence est mère de sureté. Bonne journée.
One other thing thats generally unclear in everyone’s vids. If i want to source the “best” and longest lasting wire for the job, what does one look for? Maybe another vid... there’s txl, gxl and all confusing b/c companies make up acronyms too. Bottom line for an application like this, can i just look at wire temp range? I had a new harness installed once and the outside coating crumbled in 3 years of outdoor Ca weather.
Garage Time - Restomod i guess what im after are the actual specs of the wires that make it a better choice. Often when you go to the electrical supply store they look at you crosseyed when you ask if this wire in your hand would work in a particular automotive application. :/ that said i will look up SXL and TXL for comparison, Thanks.
The more strands the more flexible it is, but the insulation is the part that gives it the automotive rating. You don't want PVC. TXL is Teflon I think and the insulation is thinner. This is good for a large bundle of wires. An ECU harness is a good example where TXL shines.
It’s really odd how we are on the same schedule. I just ripped out my hard start relay because it failed and did direct to ignition..... thanks for reminding me I should put it back 🤪
Great video Tom, very informative. I'm not there yet with my wiring. But I do have a question, my care was out in the element for who knows how long, and PO installed some type of push button starter. I will need to actually test my ignition switch at some point to see if it is any good. Are you going to test your ignition switch before you install it on the bench? Is this recommended?
I tested the switch several videos ago when I installed the tunnel harness and checked the brake lights. The ignition coil wire and starter solenoid wire both work.
Great vid Tom! Very informative. All Old VWs and Porsches in my present and past have had a barely turnover or wont start on a warm engine or hot day of driving. Ive always thought it was the starter or solenoid as an issue which by your explanation, it could actually be the relay inside the solenoid either going bad or not receiving 10amps!? OR the ignition switch not passing 10amps back to the solenoid wire during ignition start. Do i have this correct, summarizing vid? As such, adding this relay reduces load on the ignition switch and provides insurance to it. Edit: is the answer for below question right before 6:04? ...not hard enough could also be slow turn over? Unclear though, on a hot day what happens when ignition nears giving up the ghost? ie is there too much resistance to allow proper amps to flow and why would turn over be present just super slow to cycle the engine? Been trying to understand the mechanics of this.
Hey, it could be a few things: 1). The contacts inside the relay could be buggered up. You can clean these but it takes some soldering 2). The relay does the same thing as the old screwdriver trick across the starter terminals. You might try bypassing the ignition switch and cars wiring. 3). Starter motor brushes could be weak 4). Vws have bushings on the starter shaft that wear out I think #1 is most often overlooked and the relay doesn't really help this problem I really hope you figure this out for life's sake.
Garage Time - Restomod having a really slow crank, on my 73 911 hot conditions. If no1 would same issue occur on cold starts? Starts right up for me. No2 good idea. Ill rig up a starter switch to the cabin, get a hot start lines up then try ignition. Then the starter and see if a diff occurs!
Not sure why it gets worse when things are warm. My guess is the windings are less efficient? If the ignition switch gets warm then maybe the contacts don't work as well.
I totally jinxed myself by commenting!!! I just fried my ignition after paying a locksmith to make a key for my ignition off my door locks !!!!! Ahhhhh my starter position is now missing when I try to crank it!!! Please guys do the relay!!!
@@GarageTimeAutoResto it was about 7 days...... judging by the wiring and aftermarket relay looks like previous owner before1994 may have had an issue he was trying to resolve..
I’m guessing original 911s or other cars of the era didn’t have these? Going to Disneyworld’s 15th birthday party in 1986 I had to gas up my 912. It wouldn’t start so I let it roll down the hilly parking lot toward a motel. Letting out the clutch in second nothing happened until I was about three feet away from a building protecting steel post when it finally cranked. We would probably had to spend the night there if it hadn’t.
Great tip, especially since I'm making a custom rear electrical panel for my EFI project. I have a couple of spare spot in my relay block, so it can be easily accommodated. I wonder then, other than the headlights, is there anything else going through the ignition switch that could benefit from a solution like this?
The fuel pump does I think. I haven't checked the diagram specifically but I do know the factory didn't use a relay on the fuel pump at least for my year. Most modern cars do use relays. Not sure if it's a cost savings or for reliability?
@@GarageTimeAutoResto Ahh, I have an SC. My fuel pump uses a red relay (with the quenching diode built in.) I didn't know the earlier models did without that!
Thank you for this video. Today, I cranked my -69 Beetle and got a little smoke, which comes from the ignition switch.
Ignition switch is an old original one. I also have an electrical fuel pump, so what you said in the video is that the pump creates maybe some amps (maybe max 8A) ->>more to the ignition circuit.
-> That explains my issue! (Old ignition switch with worse connections plus extra amps from the fuel pump)
Total about 18A for the old ignition switch.
Thank you!
I will have THE garage time at the next weekend. I will buy a good quality relay and will install this hot starter relay system. Also, I will replace the old ignition switch.
I'm glad you got it figured out. I put a relay on the starter circuit and fuel pump circuit. That way the ignition switch sees almost no current.
@GarageTimeAutoResto yeah me too, that's great idea. I got that relay for the fuel pump controlled by oil pressure light switch.
That relay keeps 7-9 amps is not going through the key switch, that relay will insure you never have a ignition switch never heats up or burns the contacts. I have need using these for years on every car. Get a one for the 356 also . You will not regret this mod.
I also add a momentary switch on the left side of the engine compartment to crank the engine when kneeling in the back. A good back up and makes working on them easier. There may be a yellow wire In the engine harness for this momentary switch.
Exactly, the relay reduces the current to 0.25 A. This mod is even more important for the 356. At 6V the current is most likely double and switches are even more $$
i know Im kinda off topic but do anyone know a good place to stream new movies online?
This information is so usefull.. Mk3 Golfs always have the electrical part of the ignition dieing. by being fried... this is somthing i never would have thought off!
I learned this from my 356. They are 6V and they need all the help they can get electrically.
Good information. Thanks for sharing.
Good video. I already have a starter relay on my car, but I’m thinking of doing this to my headlights, so that the load does not go through headlight switch.
Yes, good idea on the headlights, I'm going to add relays hidden in the bucket. Stay tuned.
It's too bad the starter solenoids on VW Beetles and 50-70's GM cars are all wound wrong where they need so many amps to engage the starter solenoid. The cure I have done for years is to bend the fork inside the starter to allow the plunger to stay in the solenoid housing a fraction farther which allows the magnetic attraction to attract the plunger better, curing the "silent starter" problem. Occasionally a relay will not fix that problem so the best way is to bend the fork, BUT NOT MUCH. Believe what you want but this works.
Thank for the ❤️. The relay method is the easiest method to cure almost every VW silent starter problem. But occasionally I ran across one that would not engage (silent) even when crossing terminals right on the solenoid. In those cases I dismantled the starter and bent the fork a fraction so the plunger was in the solenoid housing farther. The electro magnetism is stronger then. People that didn't know this procedure bought new starters thinking this would fix it only to have the problem re-occur. One thing to watch for is if the fork is bent too much the starter can be mechanically locked in and will keep cranking when the ig. key is released. To test for that problem, pull the ig. coil wire so the engine can't start, try to start the engine, and if it won't disengage re-install the coil wire. When the engine fires the starter will be released. Rebend the fork slightly back and test again. GM starters can be bench tested for this lock-in problem but not VW's. I hope I can save some people from wasting money on a new starter with this reply.😊
This is really interesting and good info. Not sure why Bosch didn't do this originally. I guess they didn't expect the cars to be around this long.
I mostly like the relay to save the ignition switch from the high current, but your method would probably do the same.
The length of time since these VW cars were new isn't quite a relevant thing. This happened on cars only five or six years old. My first Beetle was that age when I bought it in 1969 and had the silent starter problem. I learned real quick to not let the ig. switch go back to the run position. That way I could turn the ign. switch to start many times in a row without going all the way to "off". Couple years later as a full time mechanic I found the same problem in GM vehicles, and that is where I discovered that bending the fork fixed them. I then thought about VW cars in which this happened REAL often. I had done the relay cure, which I thought of on my own 😔and slightly later bent the fork on a few VW-s. Like I say, the relay is easier because bending the fork correctly is kind of a fine line procedure to get it right. Thank you for your understanding as so many mechanics resent other things they thought they had "down pat". ☺️😊😊
Thank you for explaining it so well. I won't forget if this happens to me.
Good, but be sure that you could fit the relay on the engine starter! Lots of vibration, thermical conditions in a magnetic environment could destroy the relay? We usually see it fit on the body, in fresh box. Et comme nous disons en France : Prudence est mère de sureté. Bonne journée.
Yes, I agree the relay should be protected as much as possible even though they are sealed already. Vibration is a good point too. Thanks Franck
I had not heard of doing that for the ignition, I have for the headlights. Good to know, winter project. Thank you!
Yeah, I think the headlights draw even more power.
Interesting. So this mod is somewhat the same idea...? Would using an LED based headlight still be of concern?
fancypants I don’t believe so but I’m sure someone with more electrical back ground can confirm.
Check the specs for the LEDs but they typically draw much less. The Porsche H4s are the power hungry ones. My headlight wires are fried!
One other thing thats generally unclear in everyone’s vids. If i want to source the “best” and longest lasting wire for the job, what does one look for? Maybe another vid... there’s txl, gxl and all confusing b/c companies make up acronyms too. Bottom line for an application like this, can i just look at wire temp range? I had a new harness installed once and the outside coating crumbled in 3 years of outdoor Ca weather.
I use SXL. I think TXL is even better
Garage Time - Restomod i guess what im after are the actual specs of the wires that make it a better choice. Often when you go to the electrical supply store they look at you crosseyed when you ask if this wire in your hand would work in a particular automotive application. :/ that said i will look up SXL and TXL for comparison, Thanks.
The more strands the more flexible it is, but the insulation is the part that gives it the automotive rating. You don't want PVC. TXL is Teflon I think and the insulation is thinner. This is good for a large bundle of wires. An ECU harness is a good example where TXL shines.
It’s really odd how we are on the same schedule. I just ripped out my hard start relay because it failed and did direct to ignition..... thanks for reminding me I should put it back 🤪
Let's keep each other going😀. Did the relay fail when you were out driving around? Or has it been sitting a while
Garage Time - Restomod the relay was just screwed to chassis and spade rusted off and wire was hanging.
Gotcha, thx.
Totally screwed myself by not doing this!!!!
Great video Tom, very informative. I'm not there yet with my wiring. But I do have a question, my care was out in the element for who knows how long, and PO installed some type of push button starter. I will need to actually test my ignition switch at some point to see if it is any good. Are you going to test your ignition switch before you install it on the bench? Is this recommended?
I tested the switch several videos ago when I installed the tunnel harness and checked the brake lights. The ignition coil wire and starter solenoid wire both work.
Great vid Tom! Very informative. All Old VWs and Porsches in my present and past have had a barely turnover or wont start on a warm engine or hot day of driving. Ive always thought it was the starter or solenoid as an issue which by your explanation, it could actually be the relay inside the solenoid either going bad or not receiving 10amps!? OR the ignition switch not passing 10amps back to the solenoid wire during ignition start. Do i have this correct, summarizing vid? As such, adding this relay reduces load on the ignition switch and provides insurance to it.
Edit: is the answer for below question right before 6:04? ...not hard enough could also be slow turn over?
Unclear though, on a hot day what happens when ignition nears giving up the ghost? ie is there too much resistance to allow proper amps to flow and why would turn over be present just super slow to cycle the engine? Been trying to understand the mechanics of this.
Hey, it could be a few things:
1). The contacts inside the relay could be buggered up. You can clean these but it takes some soldering
2). The relay does the same thing as the old screwdriver trick across the starter terminals. You might try bypassing the ignition switch and cars wiring.
3). Starter motor brushes could be weak
4). Vws have bushings on the starter shaft that wear out
I think #1 is most often overlooked and the relay doesn't really help this problem
I really hope you figure this out for life's sake.
Garage Time - Restomod having a really slow crank, on my 73 911 hot conditions.
If no1 would same issue occur on cold starts? Starts right up for me.
No2 good idea. Ill rig up a starter switch to the cabin, get a hot start lines up then try ignition. Then the starter and see if a diff occurs!
Not sure why it gets worse when things are warm. My guess is the windings are less efficient?
If the ignition switch gets warm then maybe the contacts don't work as well.
Great stuff. Thanks for running through the how and whys. 👍
Thanks, this video was more talking than I like, but I hope it's helpful.
I totally jinxed myself by commenting!!! I just fried my ignition after paying a locksmith to make a key for my ignition off my door locks !!!!! Ahhhhh my starter position is now missing when I try to crank it!!! Please guys do the relay!!!
Oh man sorry that happened. You mean you only got one day out of your switch? Crazy
@@GarageTimeAutoResto it was about 7 days...... judging by the wiring and aftermarket relay looks like previous owner before1994 may have had an issue he was trying to resolve..
right, these old switches are ticking time bombs. There could also be something wrong with the wiring too. Be safe👍
I’m guessing original 911s or other cars of the era didn’t have these? Going to Disneyworld’s 15th birthday party in 1986 I had to gas up my 912. It wouldn’t start so I let it roll down the hilly parking lot toward a motel. Letting out the clutch in second nothing happened until I was about three feet away from a building protecting steel post when it finally cranked. We would probably had to spend the night there if it hadn’t.
Wow that's a scary story. Glad you got it going.
I think you are right that most cars didn't come with this relay.
Great tip, especially since I'm making a custom rear electrical panel for my EFI project. I have a couple of spare spot in my relay block, so it can be easily accommodated. I wonder then, other than the headlights, is there anything else going through the ignition switch that could benefit from a solution like this?
The fuel pump does I think. I haven't checked the diagram specifically but I do know the factory didn't use a relay on the fuel pump at least for my year. Most modern cars do use relays. Not sure if it's a cost savings or for reliability?
@@GarageTimeAutoResto Ahh, I have an SC. My fuel pump uses a red relay (with the quenching diode built in.) I didn't know the earlier models did without that!
Good to know that the SC has a relay there. I would think the fuel pump electrical loads would be about the same.
What is the exact relais you used?
The exact relay link is in this video's description.