BATTLETECH: The Charger
Вставка
- Опубліковано 17 лис 2024
- Coming in at 80-tons, the #Charger may be one of the worst #mechs ever conceived. #Battletech does have some poor designs, but this one might take the cake. It is somewhat redeemed by other variants and extreme redesigns, but these suffer somewhat from their origin.
Today, we're going to take about the Charger and its closest configurations, not including the #Hatamoto-Chi, which will be discussed in its own video later.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Instagram: / big_red_40k
Discord: / discord
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#Battletech #Mechwarrior #HouseKurita #HouseDavion #HouseMarik #HouseSteiner #HouseLiao #Battlemech #SuccessionWars #Mechwarrior #Assault #AssaultMechs #AssaultBattlemechs #Charger #CatalystGameLabs #CGL
Note: I am not associated with the Battletech / Mechwarrior IP, and create this under fair-use. Ownership of the Battletech IP resides with several companies at this time. I support all official releases.
I personally love that the Charger (and other "bad" mechs) exists. Having the military industrial complex dream up products for niches that do not exist (or shouldn't) and then try to sell the resulting boondoggles is actually pretty realistic.
Oh I think the Charger is awesome. But it's also trash. lol
@@BigRed40TECH It’s a melee murderer in tabletop.
@@mechcommander7876 Sometimes
It's good for idiot royalty who want to play war. It's got a good amount of run away.
Yep, I love how terrible the Charger is. The bad mechs out there give BT such great flavor.
Years ago , l created a clan for a campaign we never did . I called it Clan Rhino.It had strengths,weaknesses, traditions and practices that made it a little unique . It did have trials of grievance that often led to combat between Mechwarriors. Most of the trials were just like other clans ,but if the grievances between two Mechwarriors had reached of point of sheer waste of resources or time , the Khan got involved.
The Khan let the 2 warriors settle their differences in a Mech battle
.......in Original 3025 Chargers. The underlying message was "You have both escalated this to the point of sheer foolishness . You want to be fools? Use a fool's machine . But this ends ....now."
Honestly, one of the biggest strengths of Battletech is that they include stuff like the Charger. The mech building system is very easy to "solve" and figure out how to get the maximum tonnage for the desired amount of movement points, and which combination of weapons provides the optimal amount of firepower at the desired range for that tonnage. It's the fact that basically none of the canonical mechs are optimized in such a way that gives them so much character.
The big reason that canonical mechs aren't optimized through the roof is because that would be prohibitively expensive
@@adaphion A shadow hawk with the jumpjets out, AC5 out, the LRM upgraded to a 10 or 15, the SRM upgraded, and 3 more medium lasers with a couple more heat sinks. Is cheaper cbill wise. There's some argument on how to upgrade LRM and SRM depending on exactly which rules are allowed and what quirks are used if you use quirks. On my phone so don't have exact numbers in front of me.
I bring up the Rifleman IIC and raise it with a Nova.
Every mech, except for the """good""" ones should be approached with an "I can fix her" attitude. Modify them accordingly to solve your problems with it, instead of buying a mech because it solves all your problems, otherwise everyone would just buy Mad Cats.
When its a recon run, when the terrain is cluttered, when you absolutely have to take on infantry, and your drop limit is 90t.
...
Two Firestarters.
Everyone considers the Charger useless right up until it runs into them at top speed...
...And then it gets either cut down by anything over 40 tons before it even gets within range, or outrun by everything else
You don't have to be crazy or possessed by the ghost of Macho Man Randy Savage to fight well in a Charger, but it doesn't hurt...
When it is an 80-ton engine with feet with everything else being an afterthought your best option is RAMMING SPEED!!!
As someone who's only played Mechearrior 5 and never been at a Battletech table, The Charger in the hands of a good pilot is terrifying. It can be pushed to 95 kph, and I've cored dozens of assault mechs in individual missions by outrunning my problems or ripping people's limbs off. I love my Charger.
I found the melee version with an axe and 2 srm4s And heavy rifle.its a beast on the field as long as it don't overheat .@@Nostroman_Praetor
I remember playing a MechWarrior 5 co-op campaign with a friend and we got our hands on one of the refitted capellan chargers. We kept the load out the same with the AC20 medium laser and twin srm6, gave it a woodland camoflage pattern and christened it "Cousin Sam". The bugger would not die. He tango'd with everything (including going 2v1 against a highlander and atlas) and would always be the last one standing.
In MW5, the 1A5, which is the variant you're talking about, is definitely more solid. The main thing I'd point out is in universe it's pretty uncommon, and costs tons, as it was a design built by the Capellans out of buying full priced chargers from Kurita, rebuilding them entirely into a new mech, with a new engine, and just being like "We finally have assault mechs" lol
@@BigRed40TECH weren’t the capellan chargers given as some sort of peace treaty? I remember Kurita agreeing to the treaty because they were about to get a bunch of Los tech mechs from comstar if they agreed to the terms of the treaty. Granted free chargers isn’t much in the way of reparations…
The entire Capellan military philosophy is taking whatever trash we have on hand and making something useful out of it. Thats why the Cataphract exist.
@@flyinggothicsheer1346 It’s also why your borders keep shrinking
@@operkoi8954 Got me there, can't deny facts
The Charger suffers from diminishing returns in engine sizes - like legitimately, if you could downgrade the 400 engine with a 375 that would give you like double the amount of usable tonnage, but alas you can't play with fractional hexes
The Charger design really does feel like a meta-troll and cautionary tale from the developers.
theoretically speaking a superheavy force recon mech capable of shredding enemy eyes and ears while remaining practically invulnerable to said eyes and ears is a decent if niche idea
however
popgun armament is dumb
@@KoishiVibin That wasn't its role. You describe the Hunter-Killer role of which there are multiple designs of which the Charger is not one. This is, AFAIK, canonically the only mech ever designed to scout high threat situations with a decent chance of surviving. In BT's early days there used to be ambush rules that allowed a hidden unit to interupt your movement to fire if you moved within one hex of it. The penalty to hit was only based on the number of hexes you had moved before you triggered the ambush. With smart deployment, even a Regular skill-level ambusher would be takings those shots on a 4 or 5 meaning about a 75% hit chance. Needless to say, AC/20's, and clusters of lasers or SRM's racked up a lot of danage in that scenario. Basically your typical light scout was almost certainly dead, something heavier like a Phoenix Hawk had about a 50-50 chance of escaping as a battered hulk neededing days at depot-level repair facilities, and the Charger usually came out of it in a state to either continue scouting or need only an hour or two of in-field repairs
The pop gun armament was a comprimise by the design team because they believed that Procurement would not buy an unarmed mech, so they equipped it with the standard scout weapons payload (2-3 tons) of the shortest-ranged weapons they could to actively discourage the MW from attempting to stand and fight.
@@jackmccrary2614 The problem with that whole idea is that there are medium Mechs that equal or excel the Charger in maneuverability *and* armor *and* firepower *and* are cheaper just to add insult to injury. The role of the Charger, as envisioned by the original designers and producers, was graft. Getting those SL dollars in a day and age when the SLDF was seemingly willing to buy anything from anyone. Something they could build decently well and sell for a big paycheck was what the designers were thinking; tactical employment was not a concern at any point.
@Magni 56 I watched Tex's video as well. I love Tex's stuff, but with all due respect to him, he was extrapolating in that video, rather than citing canonical sources. I think the design is more like the WWII British Defiant fighter with its firepower concentrated in a dorsal turret. The design looked good on paper so was bought in large numbers by a peace-time military who found out it missed the mark when it was put into real combat. Either that, or it was a competent design meant to include an XL engine that got axed as a cost-cutting measure.
FWIW, we are all conjecturing something that is unsolvable. The reality is that the 3025 designs were constructed first, and then fluff was bodged on afterwards. Said fluff was often contradictory, and that became even more so when the SLDF was introduced as a playable faction when TRO 2750 was published later. Plus it gets muddied further as, there is no real protection against ret-conning. I personally have had continuity changed and broken on one of my published mechs when a senior designer wanted to include it one of their projects. Still a little salty about that one because I had spent hours combing through fluff to avoid breaking continuity in the first place.
@@jackmccrary2614 Tex isn't the first one to come up with graft as an explanation for the Charger being what it is. And the thing is? It wasn't even looking good on paper, and was originally something of a flop before the Kuritans decided to buy out the production line and a lot of the competition got turned into glassy craters.
Cicada laughing, "you thought doubling locust was bad, Charger is double me and even worse!"
Light mechs are the worse. That’s why rookies pilots them and experienced folks pilots the heavy classes.
@@haseo8244 The cicada isn't a light. It's a Medium with literally the exact same stats as a locust. What a shit show that mech is.
Boy right off the bat this video gave me a new perspective on Battletech that I never even realized...the Charger being ridiculed "in universe and out." I know the creators of the game, and the writers of the fiction, have to give mechs advantages and disadvantages to make them fun, interesting and balanced. Missile boats are ammo bound, laser mechs are heat constrained, etc. But the idea that they'd make a mech intentionally just outright bad...that's world building.
The Banshee 3E is another great example of an in-universe design failure, a relatively fast 95 ton assault mech with less firepower than most mediums
"The risk we took was calculated, but man we are bad at math!" - Charger Design team.
The original Charger really shows the brilliance of the original Battletech designers as it's the pinnacle of flawed designs. Even sticking with 3025 tech, there are plenty of designs that are a tweak or two away from being so much better, yet from an in-universe perspective, it would never happen for some.. reason. But the fact that these less than fully optimized, min-max designs exist, really makes the universe seem a lot more believable.
two medium lasers and a small laser would be better than what it has.
@@Shadowsearcher64 As long as you put them in the torso so they don't interfere with punching opponents.
When I played Battletech I used Chargers and rebuilt them. Was happy to see the Hatamoto Chi.
Did you realize that the Hatamoto-Chi and the Thug are the same mech? Just looks different. Brothers from the same mother.
The secret is in the name, Charge! Run into enemy mechs, smash into them. Assume a max of 8 hexes run into an enemy mech. Tonnage/10 x hexes moved. 8 x 8 = 64 damage to the enemy. Damage taken is tons/10, so an Atlas would give you 10 back. My Charger pilot had great pilot skills, bad gunnery. Its a one trick pony, but when it hits. it is all so sweet. Love it! I had to take it as I play Kurita and tried to stay with House mechs. Charger needs Star League tech to be viable, but then it really isnt the Charger anymore.
Not to mention that charge damage is applied in 5-point groups. That's a LOT of opportunities to hit something juicy.
@@YesNoMaybeOkSure Yip its like a super LBX gone wild. Had a 7 hex charge go through the left torso of a vanilla Crusader to hit critical. And you know what is in the torso of a CRD-3R? Only one crit of LRM ammo, can you say Boom? Such happy memories. But there were also so many misses. Sadness.
Oh yes, and it gets better with later ones with MASC or supercharger
@@emeryhenry1849 I honestly never thought of MASC. I play 3025 mostly, but adding MASC is a great idea. Going to seriously think about that. Thanks for the idea.
This. I know people shite on the Charger but I have found that its actually pretty good in the limited hell scape of Succession Era fighting.
SCRAP WITH IT.
For its weight class, its easy on supply lines and refit, can be a great distraction carnifex, and is actually a threat to quite a few mechs both big and small. Yes, please ignore it, and then get pummeled in the cockpit. Using a Charger to force fire supports like the Catapult to reposition or die, shove medium mechs out of the way, and even pin down TRULY scare things like a Warhawk or an Awesome is just plain fun.
Don't get me wrong, there are so many limitations on it, but even without Star League tech, in age where the freaking Hatchetman exists and somehow doesn't get lampooned, the Charger has its place as a Bully mech.
Charger a.k.a. let's take a Banshee, look where it failed (not enough weapons, to heavy engine etc.) and crank it to 11 while also keeping less armor.
I love Banshee for all it's quirks as a superbrawler but banshee was already overdoing the focus on mek-fu.
I first saw this mech in MW5 while I was trying to upgrade my lance in the weight department. I believe I was looking for something to replace my hunchback. I got "lucky" and had enough salvage to pull the Charger after the fight. It had one mission, after which I decided I would be happier with a locust in that spot if I had to choose, and put my hunchback back on my next drop.
I was similar, finding onemto fill out the weight of my lance. I figured I could fix it by stripping the machine, maxing out armour, and arming from there. Only maxing the armour took all the tonnage.
Still kept it around for beachhead missions so I could run faster than artillery shells
The Charger 1A5 is the only Charger variant that's useful.
@@katherineberger6329 3k would like to disagree with you
@@TheAverageSeal777 It can come at me in my custom hotrodded 1A5. ;)
@@katherineberger6329 i remember my shock when, after hearing the base charger only had 5 sl's, got shredded by its ac20.
Got that in Mech Warrior 5 yesterday. I was excited, it being my first Assault. Sold it immediately.
Depends on which variant you get if you are running the game vanilla. The 1A5 variant is actually decent.
That was a good choice
I love mw5 but the chargers are just money. Easy to head shot easier to part with. However the one with the ac20 is actually decent.
Pretty sure I'm running a Warhammer in mw5 haven't been on in a month or so. Been playing elite dangerous
@@weld4200 Also an excellent choice. Especially if you can play in VR, Elite is a ton of fun
Ahh the Charger.
This is why I love BT. As useless as the Charger is, it adds so much character to the setting that you have a design that was obviously the passion project of someone who had a 'bright idea', but maybe not as much of a grasp on the realities of warfare. As Big Red points out, sometimes 'bold' does not make for 'good'.
The "bright idea" behind the Charger? Graft. The whole point behind the original Charger was getting those sweet, sweet Star League Dollars.
Anyone who thinks the Charger is useless have never been in a cityfight where those big slow cycling ranged weapons are next useless, and having a Charger barreling towards you with the might and rage of an Angry god; who proceeds to tear your mech's limbs off and beat you you to death with them. While you are too powerless and slow to escape. Desperately pressing the triggers waiting for your ppcs to recharge in the vain hopes that you can get off another shot or two before the Charger bashes you to bits. Also, at close range 5 small laser is nothing to sneeze at, their damage and rate of fire can quickly rip through a cockpit and microwave the mechwarrior inside.
@@jakeroon Firstly, that's incredibly niche, and secondly, that's also not it's intended role.
Yes, you can, under the right circumstances, make the Charger work. However, not as a scout, and even in the realms of Urban/Close Combat, there are 'mechs that can do the job much better and more economically.
@@jakeroon "The might and rage of an angry god" and less armor than some medium Mechs. Even in a pure fistfight lower-weight opponents can actually take a Charger apart. Sure, it can throw hands like an 80-tonner. But it can't take a hit like an 80-tonner.
And 5 small lasers is pitiful at any range. Congratulations, you outgun Bug Mechs and some 30-ton designs at knife-fighting distances. Woo hoo. (In fact, one 3025 LOCUST variant outguns you at point blank.)
@@magni5648 I was once like you, it all sounds ridiculous on paper. Then you see it happen; regularly. The thing is pilots don;t know how to react to the sheer aggressiveness and unorthodox fighting style of an 80 ton mech with that much speed and close range threat. By the time they have figured out that the small laser have softened them up enough that the Charger is about to gut them, it doesn't matter that the charger has lighter armor and "can't take a hit like an 80 toner" , b/c the opponent is already dead, and the Charger is briskly making it's way to it';s next unfortunate victim. I do agree, however; that a charger is not intended to tangle with mechs that outweigh it. But your suggestion that lower weight mechs can (with implied regularity) throw hands with a charger and make it out a alive , is laughable. The facts are any lighter mech that throws hands with a Charger and lives to tell about it, got lucky.
If we count what the Charger chassis potentially could be, well, I built a custom Steiner Charger, the CGR-3A5 (search it; the Reddit link is the correct one). It had max armor, went 5/8 (86.4 kph) with an XL engine, and had 5 ER Medium Lasers, 1 Small Laser, a Heavy Gauss Rifle and. . .Triple Strength Myomer. To those who don't know what Triple Strength Myomer does, it increases base move speed by 1 when engaged (resulting in a 97 kph top speed) and DOUBLES the damage dealt with melee attacks. So, this thing ran as fast as a medium mech and hit like a ton of bricks at anything under 10 hexes (100 meters away). It really is very difficult to explain the horror this mech represented, other than I have seen it take apart custom 100-ton Clan mechs in 2 or 3 turns. And, even worse, literally every aspect of the design is plausible within lore as it fit within the mold of other big-gun Chargers and Steiner had used literally all these features on other designs.
one of my favourite mechs in a sense as a design made during a period of still figuring out what does and does not work. my fav designs will be the failures that was thought to be considered a good idea at the time like a giant recon that is hard enough to can survive any encounters on the field? sounds great until it turns out its actually not.
at least the Hatamoto-chi made from it is an infinitely more useful samurai themed Thug clone
100%. The H-Chi is way more THUG than Charger, but it's still a fascinating series of events. :)
BattleTechnology Magazine had featured a variant of this 'Mech, dubbed the Challenger, which had a smaller engine and replaced all the armaments with several large lasers and a medium laser. That is, if I recall correctly.
On another note, I find it irritating that, considering its weapons loadout, there was no left hand and in the right hand there was placed a "laser pistol." It seemed like the designers were trying to make this thing look more menacing than it actually was.
Oh man, can you imagine the small laser charger running out there like a gunslinger, but a gunslinger with airsoft pistols? :P
@@BigRed40TECH That's absurd beyond belief. 😄
You're talking about CGR-SB. Is also variant CGR-1A9 which is remarkably similar to described CGR-3K but with Succession War tech. As I understand it, what House Liao / Capellan Confederation got from Kurita was CGR-1L, which has armament in par with Grasshopper and armour in par with a light 'Mech. I'm dissapointed with Big Red skipping these variants.
That actually makes way more sense, kinda like a lot of Solaris 7 Gladiatorial mechs or that one pirate mech that had a crapton of spikes and threatening blinging to make it seem more intimidating than its stats would tell.
Yep. The Challenger downgraded the engine from a 400 to a 240, Removed the small lasers, Up the armor to 15 tons, Add 4 large and one medium laser and a bunch of heat sinks. Loved that issue of Battle-Technology.
I feel that 5 flamers would have been a much better choice than the small lasers. The effective range would still be nonexistent but it could probably shut down or cook most of the enemies getting close pretty quickly.
Flamers weigh a ton each, though. It could only hold 2 and a half of them.
Unless you run vehicle flamers, then you can run 3.
"A fast assault mech with all-energy slots? Stick it with flamers and you have a murder machine."
*Has only five slots*
"Fuck this"
Charger: *80 tonne scout mech*
Steiner: "WE'LL TAKE YOUR ENTIRE- Oh, oh, oh no, nonono, actually, on second thoughts you can keep it..."
I like this mech, but there's a version where they covered it in rocket launchers, which is awesome. Honestly, I think they are focused on the wrong thing. I look at the Charger and think "Hey, wanna be an even bigger version of the Firestarter?" Because the two mechs are actually more similar than people realize. It's this weird proof of concept mech, assigned probably on the battalion level, for a niche job. I think if you loaded it up with flamers and got it to act like the Firestarter, you'd find that it would make a much better reputation for itself.
I literally *just* bought one a couple days ago in Mechwarrior 5, after selling some scrap mechs thinking it looked cool.
"Wow look at all those energy hard poooiii...they're all small..."
Like the Cicada, it's not a terrible design, just one in desperate need of Lost Tech or a minor alteration to its engine power.
Anything that needs at least clan tech to be a reliable design probably needs to go back to the drawing board
Edit: that said, I love this thing
The Assassin is the same story. An xl or even a light engine can turn that maligned 40 tonner into a real battlefield ninja. Get enough spare tonnage to upgrade to a large laser and it's going somewhere.
Holy crap, dont get me started. 34 year Btech veteran here and last year, i got MURDERED by a guy who brought FIVE Chargers.
He had 3 normal ones, then a 3LL variant with the AC20 variant.
Well, the 3 normal ones charge ahead at 8 running and I HAVE to ignore them to focus on the AC20 and LL "high priority" targets in the second wave.
BOOM...kicked me to death, 2 and 3 at a time. A mech that heavy is too armored to take out quickly. So...it gets to you, en masse, and hurts. Hurts alot. At a range of 1, the kick combined with five small lasers strips TWO tons of armor off your guy. Not bad for the BV
Definitely a 1 trick pony and I see how to beat it now, BUT....i had never seen the tactic and it worked. If this was real life. I'd be dead.
Dead by charger. And people would be giggling at my funeral .
There is a whole lot to critisize Charger for, especially it`s original release, but it has a few tricks going for it. Charger can scout, get ambushed and survive relativelly untouched while withdrawing. No other contemporary mech can boast the same, and on the more personal note, I love tinkering with Charger, slightly downgrading it`s engine to 300 can allow to fit a PPC allowing him to be somewhat of a sniper with good maneuver and survivability. If you splash XL engine, ferro fiber armor and DHS... well, with all the energy hardpoints you get a monster mech capable of melting downright anything with a speed nearing a medium mech, That is something to look for, if you can survive in the Charger untill then.
Steiner would disagree with that assessment. An Atlas can do that as well :D
This is exactly what I do in MW5. An energy boat with either 3 PPCs or Binary Lasers (via mods) and then round it out with a bunch of medium lasers, extra armor and DHS. It can out Awesome any Awesome.
If you have to do that much work to make a mech viable then the original design is shit.
@@Nabo42 I mean, it is, when an assault get`s outgunned by a Commando you know you fucked up, but it has it`s uses.
@@bezyn2291 lol anything has a use but the best thing you can do with a Charger is sell it and buy something better
Ah yes, an 80 ton mech COULD mount a 400 rated engine. To quote another franchise.... your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
This mech is the homebrew champion of the lostech method of swapping engines, from the Challenger of Battletechnology magazine, to the Hatamoto series of mechs in canon, to the Black Stallion battlemech of ye olde Solaris 7 fan site.
If you're playing pure BV, the Charger is actually pretty good for 3025. A charge from a Charger can wreck a lot of mechs on the field, and it has very effective punch and kicks while carrying no ammo bombs.
Agreed
I would be an interesting idea to make the charger another ten tons heavier, give it a shield and a sword to make it into a melee mech of sorts for urban combat. Not only would the charger become its name's sake as it charge's into combat but also the age of swords and boards would have, finally, come.
It sounds cool, but would only MAYBE work in the succession wars era. Post-Clan, mechs in its weight class tend to mount ridiculous alpha-strike firepower that would out-damage its one little sword swing by like 500%. And those piddling small lasers aren't going to close that gap even if you make them pulse.
@@dark7element Post-Clan gives you Spiked armour, TSM, superchargers, XL engines, and XXL engines. 80 tons is also the largest mech that can wield a mace.
I'll grant you that the 1A1 Charger is just awful, but the A5 with the AC/20 is a brutal mech.
In universe its extremely rare, and cost the Capellans far too much to retrofit. They only did it as domestic Assault Mech production was almost non-existent.
Indeed
@@BigRed40TECH "you go to war with the mechs you have, not the mechs you want" And the succession wars are the epitome of that.
“Where is your god now”
Charger pilot upon getting an a5
"I have seen the promised land!"
Inner Sphere: The clans brought in new technology that can make amazing things happen.
Charger: So I can finally work!
In it's era, the Charger works wonders in the roll of disrupter. Let it get in close to the heavies, and a lot of their firepower suddenly stops being as useful. LRMs, Gauss Rifles, long range autocannons and PPCs all become very unwieldy when the target gets in close. And a lot of the things that have those weapons don't often have hands. So the charger hangs out until it can get close, and when it can get where it wants to, it can suddenly tie up a whole lance of otherwise very dangerous mechs. And they can't get away. The Charger out speeds them, and it out punches them in the most literal sense. And it doesn't care if you put a terrible pilot in the hot seat. Terrible ballistic skill? You aren't missing out on much damage. Terrible piloting skill? As long as you can make the mech run and stand up, its all gravy. So it can certainly have it's uses, you just have to know how and when to toss it into the mix.
Wells Technologies: Hey everyone, we just built an assault scout mech!
Star League member states: A what?
Wells: An 80-ton scout that can recon the area *and* survive enemy fire! Who wants to buy the first production run?
Star League member states: *glancing at each other nervously*
It looks like Master Chief had a romantic night with a Zaku.
The only good thing to come out of the Charger was the Hatamoto-Chi.
The 3049 upgrade is actually pretty potent. An LRM-20 plus 5 medium pulse lasers is pretty nasty.
@@Tallus_ap_Mordren Still only has 10 tons of armor though. Not good enough for an assault mech.
@@Nabo42 while it only has 10 tons of armor, that armor is Ferro-Fiberous.
The upgrade really doesn't make it a good assault mech, but it compares favorably with other fast, heavy mechs. There aren't too many 3050 inner sphere 5/8 movement mechs that can outgun it.
@@Tallus_ap_Mordren I will concede the 3050 refit is a significant improvement. Honestly, it's one example of why I prefer that era; a lot of pre-clan IS mechs are hot garbage until lostech is recovered.
I'm playing through Mechwarrior 5 and just landed in a system, they had a Charger for sale...I bought a Dragon instead lol
Fair
Ironicly my introduction to the Charger happened in the MWO where it's a very competitive 80 tonner. When I first saw 1A1 in M5 it scared me until I realized that it had laughable armament. Then the 1A5 returned my faith into the chassis being the proper AC20 carrier.
The entire reason that the Charger exists is because of tabletop mechanics. Charging damage is one tenth of the mech's weight, multiplied by how many hexes the mech moved before inpact. The 80 ton Charger with a 400 rated engine (the largest available) was the only mech that could charge for more than 60 points of damage, since it was capable of running 8 hexes per turn. Joke or not, this was usually enough to knock the target down, and the damage potential exceeded the alpha strikes of every mech in the 3025 rules. Now you know why it's called the Charger :P
"To call the Charger a failure is an insult to other failures."
The Charger in a single sentence.
The Charger almost, kind-of-sort-of works on paper: it's a recon mech that can take fire. It supposed to be big enough and heavy enough to reconnoiter heavily defended areas and escape with its data. It's lightly armed because the designers wanted to discourage the pilot from engaging enemy forces and encourage them to run the hell away. But, as you point out, mechs like a Wolverine or Shadow Hawk have as much armor, have the same speed - but also have jump jets, and they actually have weapons enough to discourage lighter, faster mechs that might pursue them from giving chase.
A Phoenix Hawk is nearly half the weight of a Charger, but could easily chase down the massive mech _and_ bring it down without ever getting close enough for the lumbering behemoth to shoot back.
I'm immediately put in mind of Tex's story about the Baron-Class destroyer from the Warhammer episode of Tex Talks Battletech and how the Baron was supposed to be this bold, paradigm shifting new fast attack ship, which instead proved to be hot garbage. Hot garbage that was pitted against the Taurian Concordat's Concordat-Class heavy frigate, which out-performed the Baron in practically every way and for a fraction of its price.
I don't think the Phoenix Hawk could take a punch from the charger.
@@gary9346 Considering that its faster, more agile and jump capable, while being better armed, I don't think the Charger would get close enough to punch a Phoenix Hawk
In an open field with no terrain features, maybe.
@@gary9346 But, that's the point, the Charger isn't _fast_ enough to catch a Phoenix Hawk. If the charger got close enough to punch, it's 5 small lasers _could_ do a lot of damage. But the 'Hawk could run or jump away before the Charger even gets within a hundred meters and keep pecking away with it's large and medium lasers.
The Charger, as fast as it is for an assault mech, isn't fast enough to evade most medium and small mechs, and it's too lightly armed to kill any small mechs pursuing it while they chip away at its armor.
A Shadow Hawk, Wolverine, or Griffin is just as fast as Charger (and with Jump Jets!). They have just as much armor as a Charger. And they can blow away any lighter, faster mechs that might try to chase them because they have actual GUNS. So they are much better suited for the job of scouting heavily defended areas than an 80-ton mech armed with five pea shooters.
I forgot how bad the Charger was in terms of just….everything.
But like the Inner Sphere Houses before and during the Wars, their greed got them too ahead to thinking anything would work.
Until they made the Charger.
In MWO the standard Charger variant comes with a 50% bonus to the range and cooldown of small lasers, and it's still bad.
The thing I really hate is the guns. The cicada also has 2.5 tons of weapons, but it at least has a couple medium lasers. 5 small lasers might theoretically have slightly more damage potential, but only at point blank range. At point blank range you won't even use two of them because the punch is so much stronger.
The charger is basically the inverse of the urbanmech; in that they're each trying to do a roll that is more suited for another weight class and they're about as good at fulfilling that role when you strip away all the fangasming.
Well, I would rather pilot a charger then an urbs. At least I would get into the fight before the rest of my lance dies ;)
@@ragimund5502 Also depending on how you use it the charger is arguably more survivable then the urbs since you have enough speed that you are marginally harder to hit then the urbanmech.
Beyond that, the charger simply does more then the Urbs; it can scout, melee, raid... all good things which people so often forget when they're gushing over the perfect scenario for the urbanmech which happens... 1 in a hundred times?
Definitely
Uh huh, then you put a single charger against a legion of urbies. The urbies strength isn't in fighting, it's drowning their enemies under a tsunami of cheap disposable units
@@ironboy3245 Ok, so putting aside how mechwarrior's aren't free the easy asnwer to the urban mech spam is to spam warrior attack helicopters, against which they're completely and utterly impotent owing to the fact that they don't have the range to shoot back and they don't have the speed to disengage. Sure it'll be a long, slow shitty game as I plink you to death with my AC2 but you're the one who thought that playing a swarm was a good idea.
It's incredible to me that Charger even manages to have a fairly high BV score. Like if it was only equal points to a low-offense light mech, why not use it as a scout or put it on the table and go punch stuff? But nooo.
In battletech a bad mech is known as a tractor :-) the first charger is definitely one :-) there are some OK variants but the original chargers only real use is infantry suppression :-) a mech I've avoided for years and only seen on the battlefield a couple of times:-) great vid as always :-)
I'm such a weirdo mutant of a Battletech fan that I love LAMs, quads and even the Banshee...
And even I've never found a use for the stock Charger. It's so dang under gunned it struggles even against Lights & even vehicles!
In large unit campaigns, the Charger is pretty decent. Everyone ignores it and then it charges or melees some big baddie and MUST be dealt with… for very low BV. Chargers are how you control what happens on a battlefield.
Whenever I see an assualt mech in MW5 earlygame I panic, when I see it's actually a charger I laugh.
I'm doing a lets a play on MechWarrior 5 Mercs and I positioned 2 Shadow Hawks on the west side of a defense zone. I went east with my other mech to mop up some enemies, then 2 chargers and some vehicles spawned on the west side. I didn't feel they were in immediate danger but, when I got there, I saw to my horror that both chargers ran straight up to one of my shadow hawks and beat the living shit out of one. The pilot died and I had a huge repair bill from it coring! ^_^ Chargers were used right that day and I completely underestimated the melee capability they could deliver. Great video, I've been liking the mech videos love to hear about all their variants and technological growth.
An 80 ton light mech?
I think I'll pass.
I am terrified of these things lol. A friend had this monster outfitted with MASC and supercharger, so as my fafnir rounds a corner street I take a football tackle from one of these fuckers at a 14 hex line. The charger didnt survive the impact but neither did my fafnir.
The CGR-1A5 and subsequent CGR-SA5 descendent are ironically some of the best brawlers designed. I head-cannon them as precursors to the Sunderer omnimech's primary configuration.
The prospect of a Charger armed with a sword is a fascinating one. For prolonged combat against multiple Lances it would be as useless as any other charger. But the image of a 100t assault (any 100 tonner) frantically backpedalling and alpha striking whilst a Charger with a sword the size of an Enforcer sprints at it is hilarious. The Charger probably wouldn't make it, but if it does...
Shame it runs too cool for triple strength myomer. Otherwise that would be even more dangerous. Faster AND double damage.
The Charger needs some work to be battle worthy. Put in 2 ER L Lasers and 3-4 M Lasers, ferro fibrous structure, as much armor as you can fit in and shit ton of double heat sinks, you get a high speed, close-in laserboat brawler nightmare that can chase down any mech party and run circles around them while melting their mechs to slag.
I think I once tried to configure a Banshee to do this role in HBS Battletech, as I wasn't aware of the existence of the Charger (the game was effectively my introduction to Battletech as a setting, so my knowledge was very limited). I believe I tried to make it work a few times before giving up and just using an Atlas instead.
Ah yes... The Charger... the answer to a question no one actually asked.
The saddest part of this tale is that the only success this thing can clam is the development of the Hatamoto-Chi, its TRUE successor!
Its good that bad mechs exist, at least from a lore persepctive. Thank goodness we have BV for force prep instead of C-Bills, and at least this thing can carry a lot on smash and grab runs.
I like them for narrative games a lot.
The biggest upside to the Charger is it's tabletop advanced rules. The Supercharger makes it a wonderful brawler if you can utilize the full movement distance.
First time I picked it up on my scanner I nearly jumped cause all I saw was just the assault mech icon, then I realised it had only small lasers
in the original game I used a Charger quite a lot. It would be in my Scout lance, using it as the big Target to hit while I used a commando, Wasp and Jenner to hit the offending unit. The Medium Lance would arrive to start hitting targets with My heavy/Assault lance taking out the large targets. The reality of the company I used was I could take on a heavier company and still win. Taking on Clan Mechs was a big ask for 3025 Mechs but in a Batchall of my company vs an Assault Star I would normally come off best.
UK BattleTech Leagues were great fun. Top Ten bouts were tough. One on One was always more fun with light mechs, as that was generally tactics games rather than slugging matches. We fought Battalion and Regiment combats, those were Weekend fights.
I found the computer game versions to not understand the roles. Urban Mechs were BRILLIANT but in game were dead weight.
I once took on a building in a battle of attrition with a Charger.
The building won.
If you want to have a fun night, do a charger only mech brawl for the original 3025 design. It may not a great design in the larger scope of things but vs it's own, provides an interesting match.
Okay but it's not an awful punch bot.
Sure, but it can be outdone in that respect by more heavily armed counterparts. Even the Banshee is better. lol
@@BigRed40TECH oh for sure, it's only redeeming qualities are it's ability to punch and it's low bv.
@@Lady-Santiago this. If I take it, I use it to try to disrupt whatever plan the opponent has. If they're foolish and ignore the terrible Charger, you can always run in and start kicking legs out or punching rear armour bubbles.
Besides, who doesn't love wrecking someone with an awful piece of junk? The lulz are totally worth it.
I feel the CGR-1A1 would be awesome for a re-imagined game of American Football on Solaris.
They fixed up the charger pretty good in MWO. The small lasers are quirked up something unreal - with the quirks, skills and maximum targeting computer, the rate of fire is faster than micro pulse lasers, the range is 280 meters, the duration is almost a half a second, and the cool down is almost half a second. It's a lot of fun.
This is what happens when you try to make an Assault mech behave like a light mech. Just let the big guys stay in their lane. You need a decently armored, decently armed speedyboi? Try a dragon.
Love the battle tech uploads! Nice job 👍
The most viable way to use a Charger in a unit composition is as a forward observer. It is fast enough to get into a good forward position to spot for indirect fire LRM units. It has enough armor (unlike other recon mechs) to stand still and spot while taking fire (without giving up much/any firepower), giving the LRMs the best possible accuracy.
Any light elements that want to try and engage it had better do so extremely carefully and only if they win initiative, because if they wander too close then the Charger can rush out of cover and snap their leg off like a twig with a well placed kick, or just plough into it with a devastating charge.
Once its armor starts to fail it then has enough speed to disengage back to friendly units who can swat at any pursuing light elements.
In a campaign setting it is also viable as a platform for upgrades. Replacing 2 or 4 of the small lasers with medium lasers gives it equivalent firepower to other dedicated recon 'mechs, while it boasts double or triple the survivability in terms of damage capacity. In a flat out exchange with another lance's recon element burping out medium laser shots, it will almost always outlast its opponent in a 1v1 engagement allowing ample time for the rest of both forces to show up and swing the tide in either side's favor.
If advanced technology becomes available and upgrade kits or even custom variants are allowed, you can really start to have fun with the chassis, utilizing XL engines, high energy weapon loadouts, double heat sinks (you can fit 16 DHS in the engine for zero space), and ferro-fibrous armor with barely a dent in its internal critical space available.
Yes, it is a cautionary tale of the military industrial complex trying to figure out any way to make a buck by answering a question nobody asked, but it's still a battlemech, and if you underestimate it it can and will allow a determined mechwarrior to kill you.
The thing about the Charger is you only need two things to turn it from weird laughing stock to Jason Voorhees-level terrifying.:
1) A skilled pilot. On tabletop, a 3 in piloting should be the minimum. That's because you also need...
2) To put the Charger in a large, metropolitan city. With a good pilot, you'll be making those PSRs for running and turning on pavement no problem.
If you have these two things, your Charger is now a martial arts movie star, crippling his opponents with devastating melee attacks that often seem to come out of nowhere. I'm going to challenge my son to a city fight in MegaMek to determine how effective this might actually be.
Just because it sounds good on paper, doesn't mean it will work
You mean like communism that never worked in real life.
I love the Charger's evolution using lostech to make what is essentially a revival of the Thug; the Hatamoto-Chi. It's like a kid you call weak in middle school, and then kicks your ass years later.
The art immediately made me think it was a dope medium, maybe on the lighter side...then I heard it, "Assault mech at 80 tons."
WAT.
Yea, it's 80 tons of fun. And by fun, I mean useless.
It's an 80 ton coffin with a reactor in it. lol
Niche mech that can be really fun to use upon occasion. Ive run one in games where I paint an area with smoke and let this guy just stand in it. No one goes into that smoke. No one even comes close. Suddenly I have an area that the opposing player wont enter and that means he takes the long way around. Is it a great strat for most games? Not really, but if you need to hold a particular spot even for a few turns this can be one way to make it happen.
Oh and if you want to be truly mean strip the weapons, add a hatchet, adjust the pilot to an 8 gunnery with a much lower piloting skill. You can make a zombie mech that can easily terrify your opponent. Definitely not a great all arounder, but it suddenly becomes an amazing guard mech.
Awhile back I redid "advanced technology" using a similar approach used for primitive tech, and wound up with a Charger that actually would have made sense, on the drawing board, but with the tech cut off would have resulted in what we ended up with.
I wasn't thinking it couldn't be worst than the Ant, then you got to the armament. Holy hell, it has less firepower than some power armor.
The Charger or: How I learned to stop worrying and put lipstick on a 80-ton pig.
The Hatamoto-chi, Capellan AC20, and Drac LRM fist version of this are pretty good.
I don't view the Hatamoto-chi as a Charger, and it will be covered seperately :)
@@BigRed40TECH Isn't ther ealso the version with an arm mounted LRM as well.
I remember playing the Charger mech with XL400 engine (16 double heatsink in engine / 32 sinking total) (Endo chassis and ferro armor) armed with 3 ER PPCS. It could constantly chain fire it's PPC's without overheating, and it was fast. At that point it was much better than a stock Awesome.
I just saw one of these for the first time in MW5. Original fit. Truly it is the Magikarp of Mechs.
I love the charger as a blank slate, i strip it and go from there, the glass cannons I've made are really fun
thats why i like lore videos! i didnt' knew that the charger was such failure! i i've been using the charger-3k on MW5 for ages !
The Charger strikes me as a mech that would be used to break in new pilots as a quasi hazing ritual in mid level merc units. It's like " So you wanna be a MechWarrior huh? Somewhere in this city is a Hunchback. Bring me back a trophy and you're in ."
Not getting what the problem is. Slap some TAG or some kind of electronic warfare unit on there and you've got something that is hard to stop and incredibly fast for its size and armor. Also, it can punch like nobodys business.
I recall Tex saying at one point that the Charger isn't a bad mech _per se,_ but rather is just a niche mech that performs a specific function and shouldn't be taken out of that role. Which... I mean, I guess? But if if you're a mech designed with a single purpose in mind and you're getting outperformed by multi-role/general purpose mechs, than I think there's an argument to be made for you not living up to the design philosophy.
All stuff I used to love in BT. The idea that machines had real tradeoffs in performance and capabilities. Made lance builds such a big deal. The clan tech kinda made that less so.
I like both, but I prefer Succession Wars :D
-this mech has 5 small lasers!
-and?
-What do you mean "and"? Do you expect an assault mech to have more than this?
-.. Dude. I know light mechs with more weapons...
"5 small lasers may seem to be unpowered, but you've forgotten that this is an 80-ton assault mech, and it's 400 standard engine will provide so much power, that those lasers will act as if they were large lasers!"
You see I find it kind of sad just how close the charger was to being a really good Mech. Downgrade the engine a small amount and u can stuff it with medium lasers. Suddenly you've got a terrifying brawl mech that can charge at you at honestly terrifying speed. While still fulfilling what I'd call 'aggressive scouting'
Sadly they just went far too far into the engine.
I almost always use a charger for a time in mw5 games. Like the cicada the base versions just went too far into dreams of speed to the point of diminishing returns
It was p beastly in that one novel about the guy who used it to win solaris games
The Challenger variant is surprisingly good but nothing beats the sheer pants shitting hilarity of a Charger with melee weaponry. The stock variant however is only really there for moral support unless you channel your inner Clay Matthews and just rush down and tackle everything smaller than you.
Gib Berserker. lol
@@BigRed40TECH Stupid mechs require stupid tactics. The Banshee is another one that's good fun to just play linebacker with.
And yet, I have to gun down like 3 of these every time I find myself crushing dirt in a MW5:war zone. My usual thought? Oh great. So that'll hit the salvage table. Couldn't they send something I can add to my lance?
Funny thing is, I've been fiddling with a similar design. Saw the thing on the Battlemaster and asked, what if it was faster? So, shrank it to 80 tons, went to an XL 400 engine with FF armour and jump jet. One large ER laser, six medium lasers and a quad of machine guns.
Not a cheap Mech by any means.
But the idea was more a sort of command Mech that could keep up with faster formations. Initial tests weren't bad, but it does have a lot more firepower than this thing does.
I didn't know that "Domestic Assault" was a real word...
House Liao, the only House that *couldn't* commit Domestic Assault-Mech production.
See? They are morally superior. :P
The Charger is what you call a Nightmare for infantry. Imagine an 80 ton mech with speed of a scout mech running towards you, stomping fighting positions flat, ripping bodies out of windows, playing baseball with a tank turret that was ripped out, turning your fleeing buddies into ash via disco lasers. Mech on Mech, yeah this thing loses to even an Urbanmech. But, Mech on poorly armed infantry? Why do you think the DCMS uses it so often with giant Katanas? This thing is a people masher.
A single Firestarter will wreck Infantry's shit more than a Charger will. The Charger will likely do better against heavy vehicles, however.
It can give a pretty impressive PowerPoint presentation, though.
I love the charger, and I love how its inclusion, along with other "Bad Mechs" make battletech so Good as a world. I still love modifying the thing extensively though.
I love the Charger because it can be such a meme on the tabletop. Especially if you Orbitally Deploy it.