Negative MODALITY: How Negative Harmony Transforms Modes [Music Theory]
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- Опубліковано 20 сер 2024
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#negativeharmony #negativemodality
As promised, finally we have the video on Modes and Negative Harmony!
In this video we see what happens when we apply Negative Harmony to modes. We also see:
- An intro to one of the most important tools to understand modes: the Order of Brightness, and
- The reason why Negative Harmony is (and should) be called "Negative". And yes, I changed my mind on this point since previously I preferred 'inverted harmony'.
- And as usual, you can get tons of ideas on how to write music by taking previous melodies and progressions and running them through Negative Harmony
(Seriously, if you write music or even think about writing music, these videos on Negative Harmony are giving you all the secret weapons that are not yet widespread in the music writing community. Don't miss them!)
You can see all this in the video here.
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Greatest content on earth. This information is just mindblowing
i feel decadent filling my mind with games like this while people are starving in 3rd world countries.
@@commentfreely5443 about time you noticed. Now do something about it or otherwise it's worthless. Hi, from México.
Always excellent, thank you.
Remember kiddies: 4152637. It is the order of brightness by mode number. It is also the order of chords on the Circle of 5th/4ths (put 1 on C and you get 4152637 = FCGDAEB, the key of C). It is also the tuning of equitone instruments like guitar (except the c+f high strings are moved over a half step to b+e so we can easily make barre chords). So it is therefore the pattern of 7 strings/notes in the 3 notes per string pattern that everyone should learn.
so sharps are bright?
I dont mean to be so off topic but does any of you know a tool to get back into an instagram account..?
I somehow forgot my password. I would love any assistance you can give me.
@Mathias Jaxson Instablaster ;)
@Callan Bentlee Thanks for your reply. I found the site thru google and I'm in the hacking process now.
Takes quite some time so I will reply here later with my results.
@Callan Bentlee It did the trick and I actually got access to my account again. I'm so happy:D
Thank you so much you saved my account !
My brain just shat a gold brick,... great stuff , seriously
For anyone interested, one thing I haven't really seen explained anywhere that made this concept much easier to "calculate" quickly is this: To transform a mode, simply move the root up a fifth and play the same series of whole and half steps but descending. So take C phyrgian: C Db Eb F G Ab Bb C...move up a fifth to G and in descending order, follow the same whole/half step sequence (half, whole, whole, whole, half, whole, whole): G F# E D C B A G, which rearranges to C lydian: C D E F# G A B. Hope this helps someone!
Phrygian ought to move to an adjacent mode (Aeolian or Locrian), though ...
This really helps visually and practically, thank you!
Actually when you flip the locrian you are adding one more sharp to the lydian and you get a lydian chromatic scale, you get 2 lydian tetra chords (1 2 3 +4) so you are getting 1.- A B C# D# 2.-E F# G# A# and you could say its actually brighter than lydian cause all the notes want to resolve upwards.
I recommend the book from George Russell "The Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization" if you are interested on this. Good job with your videos and pursue to new sounds, music and theory. Love them!
Don't think I agree with you but I would be interested to hear your reasoning. When you flip the Locrian, you are indeed adding one more sharp to the Lydian, but that sharp is the #1. Lydian #1 is equivalent to Locrian shifted up by a semitone (e.g. A Lydian #1 is A# Locrian). Don't see where a Lydian Chromatic Scale comes into this.
@@EclecticSceptic Lydian Chromatic Scale is more than an octave scale, 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7 #8 is one of them, you are using two lydian tehtrachords. Lydian chormatic scale is a scale made up of superimposing 5ths's
It's a complex topic but George Russell "The Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization" book explain everything of this scale.
@@josedelaparra9981 OK but I don't see how this explains anything. Surely the Lydian scale itself is just a subset of that then? I think there is a much more direct and clear way to explain why the negative harmony transformation cannot be applied to the Locrian mode.
I'll copy-paste my reply to someone else below (i.e. how I would explain it):
I don't know how you did it but the way I worked it out was: If you take Dorian as the neutral mode with 0 brightness, then you see that the sharps that are added to Mixolydian, Ionian, Lydian are (in order) #3, #4, #7. Describing these scale degrees of Dorian as number of semitones from the root, we see that 3rd - 7th - 4th is 3 semitones - 10 semitones - 5 semitones. This is an increase of 7 semitones (perfect fifth) each time, as in 3 + 7 = 10, 10 + 7 = 17 (or 5, because 12 notes), 5 + 7 = 12 (or 1). So the next entry in the sequence of sharps is #1, making #3, #7, #4, #1. This means the next brightest mode is Lydian #1.
Out of interest if you keep following this pattern, the sharps are #3, #7, #4, #1, #5, #2, #6 (and then the cycle just repeats). The same is true of darkness/flats, it just happens in reverse, namely b6, b2, b5, b4, b7, b3. Interestingly, if you consider how the scales are transformed step-by-step when a sharp is added, it goes like this: Dorian - Mixolydian - Ionian - Lydian - Locrian - Phrygian - Aeolian - (back to Dorian). And for flats it goes the other way. This is just going around the circle of fourths (e.g. D - G - C - F - B (tritone) - E - A - D - ...), of course, since if you arrange the scales in order of brightness/darkness you just get the circle of fifths (Lydian, Ionian, Mixolydian, Dorian, Aeolian, Phrygian, Locrian ... F - C - G - D - A - E - B).
I treat Locrian’s negative as Lydian Augmented: Lydian but one degree sharper (the negative root, or fifth factor of the tonic) than Lydian. That spelling Gb F Eb Db Cb Bb Ab (Gb) lends a C Locrian scale with the root degree flattened and C# D E F# G A B (C#) lends a C Lydian augmented scale with the root degree sharpened, especially when both are actually Lydian augmented and Locrian spelt on Gb/F#, seems to fit this. They act similarly too: whereas Lydian (tonicized Lydian augmented & negative of Phrygian) is fairly functional as a tonic, Locrian is not, and whereas Lydian augmented is fairly dysfunctional as a tonic, Phrygian (tonicized Locrian & negative of Lydian) is.
Jacob Collier makes it a practice not just stopping at one sharp added to the lydian mode. You can keep going around that circle of 5ths until you add infinite brightness 😁
Quell'intro - con te che appari da destra a salutarci con le dita svolazzanti a mò di colibrì - è magica. Grande Tommaso!
So happy this video is a thing. I like using modes a lot, and when I found out about negative harmony, I used it a lot too. But it did always nag me, that it certainly worked well, but I didn’t immediately see *what* was actually happening. I gotta admit, the one downfall to understanding and using music theory for me, is that now when I *dont* know why something is working, I have sort of a hard time accepting that it simply does. I finally accepted that with negative harmony used on modes, but hey I guess this video scratched the itch I’ve been ignoring for a long time haha.
Your technique is great!!
Lots of symmetry in the evaluation of the modes.
Thanks
Simply AMAZING! You sir are "A Beautiful Mind" when it comes to music theory. If you haven't seen the movie, you have to check it out.
Thank you! Not only I have seen the movie. I actually met John Nash at a conference in 2005 ;-)
@@MusicTheoryForGuitar oh WOW! What an honor it must be to have met such an extraordinary person. Don't ever stop sharing your knowledge, it would be a huge loss if we lost access to your knowledge of theory. Thanx for your teachings. I've learned more from a few of your lessons than I have in 30 years of reading and teaching myself. Thank you.
I've been thinking about the Locrian mode (as well as modes that don't have a natural 5th in them), and I've decided to post my main idea here so that people can try it and see whether it "works". I'll try to keep this brief.
Let's work with a tonic of C. The stable pitches (which I'll incorrectly call notes) in the major scale are C, E, and G. What else do these notes have in common? They are the first three notes that appear in the overtone series of C (which runs C, C, G, C, E, G, B♭, C, ...)
In fact, we could look at this is just taking the first two notes in the overtone series, and using them to define how we "flip" notes to create Negative Harmony, with the "happy accident" of having the next stable note (E) be exactly between the first two in the scale (C and G).
If you flip across C-G, and you start with a scale or mode that does not contain a natural 5, then the new scale will not have the tonic in it. The only way that you can flip notes and end up with the tonic being in the new scale is to choose the tonic and a note that is in the old scale.
That might suggest that we should flip C and G♭ whenever we have the Locrian scale, but G♭ is not a stable note, so we would ruin the active/stable note dynamics that make Negative Harmony work with the major scale. So what do we flip C with?
Here's the idea: We should flip it with a note that appears early in the overtone series, which is also in the scale.
This means that if we have a scale (again with tonic C) that does not have a G in it, but does have an E in it, we should swap C with E (so that D and G♭ remain the same).
If there's no G or E, we should swap C with the next note in the series, B♭. (This is how we would handle the Locrian mode.) That means we would swap C with B♭, D♭ with A, D with A♭, E♭ with G, E with G♭, and keep the B and F as-is.
Now comes the reason why I post this on the Internet: I'm not sure whether this sounds good to the population in general. That's where you come in; try it, and see what you think.
Hi.
Sounds intersting.
But can explain it more simple?
@@vadimzitsermusicianvlogcha3870 Tommaso has a video on Negative Harmony at ua-cam.com/video/qHH8siNm3ts/v-deo.html ... If you watch it, then my comment should make more sense.
C Locrian: C Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb
C Locrinv: Bb A G F E D B - Bb Cb D E F G A - 1 b2 3 #4 5 6 7 - Bb Lydian b2?
out of curiosity, when i flipped locrian in negative harmony, (A Bb C D Eb F G), i got the E Lydian scale (this one's in correct order: E D# C# B A# G# F#) which really took me by surprise
Edit: I think I understand why this happened. If looking at this graph of modes and where they flip to, since the seven modes are not equal therefore it will happen that there will be a remainder one, that locrian actually flips to a scale _brighter_ than A Lydian which is theoretically E Lydian but if you think abt it like it's a scale in A, a scale brighter than A Lydian is A Lydian #1 or A# Lociran. But we're not thinking of it as A# Locrian i mean, it's a lot more pleasant to use E Lydian, well, maybe for me i guess
Edit 2: so now upon reaching farther to the end i realized that he did already show this and i wasted my effort lmao
Finding stuff out and reaching a deeper understanding is NEVER wasted effort ;-)
I don't know how you did it but the way I worked it out was: If you take Dorian as the neutral mode with 0 brightness, then you see that the sharps that are added to Mixolydian, Ionian, Lydian are (in order) #3, #4, #7. Describing these scale degrees of Dorian as number of semitones from the root, we see that 3rd - 7th - 4th is 3 semitones - 10 semitones - 5 semitones. This is an increase of 7 semitones (perfect fifth) each time, as in 3 + 7 = 10, 10 + 7 = 17 (or 5, because 12 notes), 5 + 7 = 12 (or 1). So the next entry in the sequence of sharps is #1, making #3, #7, #4, #1. This means the next brightest mode is Lydian #1.
Out of interest if you keep following this pattern, the sharps are #3, #7, #4, #1, #5, #2, #6 (and then the cycle just repeats). The same is true of darkness/flats, it just happens in reverse, namely b6, b2, b5, b4, b7, b3. Interestingly, if you consider how the scales are transformed step-by-step when a sharp is added, it goes like this: Dorian - Mixolydian - Ionian - Lydian - Locrian - Phrygian - Aeolian - (back to Dorian). And for flats it goes the other way. This is just going around the circle of fourths (e.g. D - G - C - F - B (tritone) - E - A - D - ...), of course, since if you arrange the scales in order of brightness/darkness you just get the circle of fifths (Lydian, Ionian, Mixolydian, Dorian, Aeolian, Phrygian, Locrian ... F - C - G - D - A - E - B).
I think negative harmony is pretty amazing. But how could one do the negative harmony of a piece of music, in which there is a common chord / pivot chord modulation? I keep on thinking how this could be done, since those common chords do not a have well defined root? How may one perform the negative harmony of that piece of music in a way such that the transitions between keys still sound smooth enough?
What I mean is: "In which key are the chords of a diatonic pivot modulation from C major to G major? Are they in the key of C major, G major, both or none of them? What is the root of that key?". Maybe it does not really matter for the modulation itself, but if the root of the key is C it would produce one negative harmony, but if it is G then a different negative harmony would be produced. For instance, suppose there is a pivot chord modulation from the key of C major to the key of G major, and E minor is one of the chords in that modulation. Now, if one considers C major to be the key in that part of the piece of music, then applying negative harmony to that E minor chord would produce an A-flat major chord. Yet, if one considers G major to be the key instead, then applying negative harmony to the E minor chord would produce a B-flat major chord. So, by applying negative harmony to a whole piece of music in which there is a pivot chord modulation from the key of C major to the key of G major, where E minor is one of the common chords in this modulation, would this chord be substituted by an A-flat major chord or a B-flat major chord?
I see Locrian as the great communicator, associated with Mercury (Serpent, forked tongue, etc.)
Even though we typically view it linearly and at the very end (the last mode), I tend to visualize the music spherically in which locrian coils around the center like you'd see DNA or something. It moves in and out of the other modes and doesn't have any particular properties of it's own in the way we typically see brightness but it acts as a bridge. It seems kind of silly that people try to write songs in Locrian, it just seems like a lack of understanding and visualization of the function of the mode. It may be the most useful of all the modes actually because it connects things together, but is just too unstable on it's own. Same as you see in alchemy regarding quicksilver. Just a fun little correspondence that helps me visualize, I hope this helps someone else too and that I'm not being too vague lol
How do you connect things together with locrian mode?
Very cool lesson. Keep up the great work! Thanks!
There is another way to look at changing modes using negative harmony, it's by inversing the intervals. For example : ABCDEFGA or A aeolian which is w, h, w, w, h, w, w becomes w, w, h, w, w, h, w. that's ABC#DEF#GA or A mixolydian. So A Aeolian becomes A Mixolydian and vice versa, A Locrian becomes A Lydian, A Ionian becomes A Phrygian and A Dorian stays the same. In this version, the brightest mode which is the Lydian becomes the darkest one which is the Locrian and the neutral mode is the Dorian.
EVEN EASIER: A is 9 semitones above C, E is 4 semitones above C, so:
A->E that means 9>>4, 9+4=13
D-> B 2>>11 ; 2+11=13
G>>F# 7>>6 ; 7+6=13
C>>C# 0>>1 ; 1+0=13
F>>G# 5>>8 ; 5+8=13
A#>>D# 10>>3 ; 10+3=13
basically numbers add up to C# or 13
which is inverting each note with respect to C+ or G-
C Phrygian has 4b, C Lydian 1#, they add up to 3b
C Ionian has 0b, C Aeolian 3b, add up to 3b
C Mixo has 1b, you need C with 2b to make 3b >> so C Dorian
Greatness! Thank you!
Thank you! This is great. I am a newbee to your site. I want to check out more and subscribe. So much interesting to learn.
Wow! Very interesting! It makes you think how infinite music is. Awesome 👏🏻
It really never ends :-)
And this is all using the Chromatic Scale. There are other tunings out there, too.
If you change perspective and say that since the original root of A locrian is transformed to E, E is now the new root of the scale- then the new scale is E lydian
Following this same logic:
A lydian = E locrian
A ionian = E phrygian
A myxolydian = E aeolian
A dorian = E dorian
With E as the new root, each mode becomes an exact mirror of itself with the exact opposite level of brightness (A lydian is brightest mode but it turns into E locrian, which is darkest mode)
Really cements the whole negative aspect of negative harmony even better
Poor locrian just wants to fit in with the other modes.
Real musicians only use the locrian mode. ^-^
The Eternal Outsider.
Yeah, like Pluto, Locrian mode gets downgraded all the time. Joe Henderson's Inner Urge is a great song to hear Locrian in action. The thing is, it's hard not to hear Locrian as a suspension of a b9 chord or a diminished suspension of a 7b5 chord. Even trying to hear it as an inversion of a dominant 9 only works in context.
@@aylbdrmadison1051 real gay musicians
I really think locrian mode of a post-tonal mode.
And think of all posibiilities from Atonal music.
The tonal and modal system are not perfect. If they were they would include locrian mode as a tool for composing.
Great video by the way
Brilliant!!!! 👏👏👏 Very clear and easy explanation.
Wow, what a great lesson 👍
Love your videos 😃
It would be nice to listen to examples.
I agree. it would give it context. atm, to me, its just gibberish I cannot get my head quite around.
play them yourself, thats the whole point!
Listen to Joe Henderson's Inner Urge if you'd like to hear the closest thing to a true modal Locrian chord. It's the first chord in the song. It's an F#7b5. Kinda sounds like a C Lydian though. But it does have a darker sound than Lydian with the F# in the bass.
I'd really like a video of you elaborating your point about the locrian mode.
Thanks for all the content!
5th mode of hungarian minor is double harmonic major.
Negative harmony for Hungarian major is Hungarian major mode 5.
Alt nat6 nat7
Thanks. Excellent, as always. I only wondered (perhaps a silly question) why “brightness” is equated with number of sharps.
Not a silly question at all :-) If you compare the sound of the modes (for instance, by playing the 'same' chord progression in each of them, like I IV V) then you can tell that the modes with more sharps sound 'brighter'. The theoretical definition is there only to reflect how our ears perceive them.
Brightness/darkness, or happiness/sadness are just descriptions of higher frequency/lower frequency.
So brightness equates to: higher vibration frequency (pitch in music) or more sharps/less flats.
Awesome! And Locrian has always been an oddball in my mind, and now even more-so..lol
My question is how to apply this?. For example if I play A Lydian chord can I play A Phrygian melody on top?....or E Phrygian?
Love it
how about a video explaining the use of active and stable tones and the difference between consonant/ dissonate intervals. how can we use them? which one to use when building tension?
And also a comment abt Locrian, I will agree that it's hard to establish Locrian as an independent mode without sounding unstable. Definitely the only way this could quite be achieved is modal interchange. Like, say you're in minor and then bring in that b5. Mostly found in rock and metal obviously.
Magma uses a lot of ♭5s and ♭2s, so there's probably a Locrian mode lurking behind a lot of their compositions.
A few questions:
- Why is C half-sharp taken as the mirror here? Why not the root? If we take the root, we get to see Dorian's symmetrical structure better since it flips to itself. Also, Ionian's properties seem to reflect very well into Phrygian (for example the tendency of the 7 to resolve into the 1, and so the b2 resolving into the 1). So that suggests that taking the root is more accurate.
- In that case, isn't it just mirror harmony? So effectively, what is the exact difference between mirror harmony and negative harmony? And if it is the placement of the mirror, then why exactly does the mirror at the 2-halfsharp / 3-halfflat work better for negative harmony?
Because the 1-5 axis preserves the tendency of the notes: ua-cam.com/video/qHH8siNm3ts/v-deo.html ; transforms scales in a predictable and logical way: ua-cam.com/video/5Z2MUPXG5tA/v-deo.html ; and it's also the practice used by musicians like Collier and Coleman. Taking the axis at 1 is of course possible (and some people call it mirror harmony - use is inconsistent though), but then you lose all the nice properties of Negative Harmony that actually help you to make music. Have a look at my playlist on negative harmony for more info.
Sei veramente grande Tommaso,adoro i tuoi video qui sul Tubo ed i tuoi corsi sono sicuramente fantastici,peccato che per le mie finanze siano troppo cari,se un giorno decidessi di farli in formato PDF e quindi più "abbordabili" fai un fischio! 😉
I'm just gonna spend some quality time with the locrian mode now. ^-^
Very interesting as always.
Now, I come to think about it, this is not quite correct given that the root of the chord in negative harmony changes as well. So... A ionian gone negative does have the same notes as A aeolian but it works more like an E dorian given the change in root.
As for the locrian mode, this method doesn[t work because (as you so elocuently pointed out) it doesn´t have a 5th. I would imagine that there could be a way to create a negative locrian by playing arround with the axis to compensate.
Thanks for your great videos
Ho un sacco di domande...Dove la si applica questa armonia? E soprattutto in che modo? Non si può applicare quando si suona? Grazie se mi rispondi 🤗
Its soooo coooooool 😱👌🏻🎶🔥
Funny, haven’t you given an explanation of negative harmony where Lydian and Locrian, Ionian and Phrygian and Mixolydian and Aeolian are the conjugate pairs and Dorian is self-conjugate?
Yes of course. That turns out to be the theory of undertones, which is not negative harmony (though some people think it is), and has several 'problems' when used for actual musical applications. You can get this by flipping the notes using the tonic as axis. But then you lose all the nice properties that make Negative Harmony useful.
It'not negative harmony but "mirror Harmony" ;
lydian (mirror) locrian
ionian (---) phrygian
Mixolydian (----) Aeolian
Dorian = dorian... etc, etc.
The axis for mirror is the tonic (Tommaso explaination).
Very interesting for polytonality but Negative harmony is different!
MusicTheoryForGuitar they probably think it is because “negative” can also mean that the leading tone to the root is leading in the opposite direction.
@@MusicTheoryForGuitar That's also because NH is a permutation of the pitches that leaves none fixed, and the other negative harmony referred to by Ruhf has two fixed points (the tonic and the ♭5).
It's easier to visualize when starting with the C major scale..
Great Video! But one point made me curious: For what reason we start sorting the inverted notes all of a sudden? Speaking from a chord-based view here. Shifting to a darker or brighter mode will always result in similar chords but I thought the idea of negative harmony was also to substitute other chords - sometimes one that is far away on the fretboard - and not the ones which are just (if at all) a half step up- or downwards the fretboard away.
We might be making the same point.
It mostly flips major to minor in triads, but with 4+ chord tones, the negative gets odder, but maintains the same level of stability of the chord. As he said, this was only 1% of the possibilities.
I kinda don't like it, cus if I'm not wrong, if you invert them over the root axis, the lydian goes to locrian, and so on, and dorian inverts to itself. It's just nicer symmetry in the system. But whatever 😂, I still love the content.
I have another theory sir. When you reversed the intervals of the mode so (1 = 1)(b2 = 7)(2 = b7)(b3 = 6)(3 = b6)(4 = 5)(#4 or b5 = b5) ect..
For exemple if you take Lydian scale (1 2 3 #4 5 6 7) and reversed the intervals you find (1 b7 b6 b5 4 b3 b2), whish correspond to Locrian scale. If you make this process for all the mode, you find : Ionian/Phrygian, Dorian/Dorian, Lydian/Locrian, Mixolydian/Aeolian. That's weird that Dorian have no reversed but that's it, maybe It's the more neutral mode.
See these two for why one way of reversing the notes makes more sense than the other:
ua-cam.com/video/5Z2MUPXG5tA/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/KZzqjHrlugY/v-deo.html
@@MusicTheoryForGuitar Ok thanks for the answer, that's make more sense now. Interesting, so "my" theory seem make more sense logicaly but not functionnaly haha. Music is really mysterious and contain a lot of paradox. I will try the two methods of negative harmony to see what work the best on context. Thanks again ;)
Sir...can u give me explanation..How to make Chord Progression from Borrowed Chord (Modes)???
What about Bjork's Army of me? It's locrian, basically
I love this concept and want to use it in everything. Even to a lesser extent, I even figured it out on my own, but one thing confuses me though. In this video, you rotated in 5ths but in your "How To Write Chord Progressions With NEGATIVE HARMONY", you rotated chromatically. I would think this was a static technique but you changed the "constant" (in lack of a better term). Why the change?
If you check what notes are exchanged, both cases are exactly the same.
@@MusicTheoryForGuitar I will look into that. Thank you for the reply.
I noticed that, too. Then I realized that using the circle of fifths allows you to draw the axis anywhere you want. The root note is then the note right before the axis travelling clockwise (so the fifth is the next note on the other side of the line). Now you can use any garden-variety circle of fifths to compute the negative harmony note transformations for every key.
I guess technically you can do this with a chromatic circle of notes, too, as long as you consider the note in the "11:30" position as the root. However, circles of fifths are much easier to come by!
I am a former Professor of Music. Now I produce bands and still am a composer for many different musical projects. It is still just "Chromatic Inversions", what don't you have a video on Palindromic scales and/or "Mirror" Harmony?
Thanks for this. It's interesting but i'm as useless as before because i have no clue of even one possible application for this. Can someone give me an example?
ua-cam.com/video/heISdRNnEnw/v-deo.html
@@MusicTheoryForGuitar Thank. I love your teaching style and the fact we're learning some real gems from you! Maximum respect !
Please help me understand, I'm lost ! Shouldn't you be using the A-E axis only to transform A Ionian ? In a different video, you explained that the axis of transformation for negative harmony depends on the key you're in. My understanding is that A Ionian is in the key of A, A Dorian is in the key of G, A Phrygian is in the key of F, A Lydian is in the key of E, A Mixolydian is in the Key of D, A Aeolian is in the key of C, And A Locrian in the key of Bb. So I really don't understand why you're using the same A-E axis to transform 6 modes which are not in the key of A. Is there something wrong with my understanding of modes or negative harmony.
By the way, I want to use this occasion to thank you for all your videos. I always find that your videos are the most easy to understand on UA-cam whatever the musical concept is. You have this great ability to give a context for each concept and your give audio exemples for each point you make. Do you still have slots available for private lesson ?
Do not confuse the mode with the parent (major) scale :-) The tonic of A Dorian is A, and the 5th is E, so the axis is A-E. Or if you prefer, A Dorian is not in the key of G: it's in the key of A (Dorian). Just like A aeolian (=natural minor) is in the key of A minor, not C major.
For lessons, write me at tommaso@musictheoryforguitar.com so I can see what you need.
@@MusicTheoryForGuitar thank you so much for your reply! So if I understand what your saying, one can transpose any kind of scale using negative harmony based on an axis between its tonic and its fifth, as long as it is a perfect fifth? So, in that case, can we still transform, for exemple, A Locrian mode using The A-E axis, even if the fifth is Eb ? Locrian is really a strange beast !
For the lessons, I'll send you an email to introduce myself and explain my needs!
Once again, thank you so much for all the amazing videos and knowledge you have been sharing with all of us! It is hard to imagine the amount of time you must have put into this !
When we say that A locrian belongs to the Bb key, shouldn't the band that divides the circle of fifth be between Bb and F?
Yes I fully understand, this video, my only question is how do you come tothe conclusion of starting the converted mode on different notes, is there a specialway of wich note shoulpoint to its relative mode note??? please
I didnt knew u could apply mods yo a Guitar wow
If I invert or take the mirror immage of the of Ionian It would turno to Phrygian,lydian would turno to locrian,mixolydian would turn to aeolian and Dorian would be a palindromo.So I'm wondering if there Is an application for this concept since It differs to what you are explaining negative harmony to be...
Thanks
So with a minor key, which is in between the dorian and aeolian modes, you don't get a normal major key (ionian mode) back, but something which combines that with elements of mixolydian too. I was wondering why negative harmony versions of songs in minor keys sometimes sound a little weird. I don't think we're very attuned to mixolydian.
"minor key, which is in between the dorian and aeolian modes" Why would that be?
Heyy, I understand that you exchange the root for the fifth, but the other exchanges no. Please could anyone explain me, for example, why does B is exchanged with D or why F# is exchanged with G? I don't understand the other exchanges...
This circle axis is a tool to tell us what notes are swapped. Negative harmony is a theoretical tool to facilitathe the math. C overtones series, or any note, follow the same math Pattern. Negative harmony uses the same path pattern but going below, calculated Undertones (they dont exist, not a observable phenomenom) to see how harmony wound sound like if the overtone series actually went lower. This axis is a cheat tool.
I was interested in negative modality as a means to broaden the palette of chords available when composing in a mode, but now I suspect that this isn't in general possible. We know (from your earlier videos) that negative harmony can often be used to substitute chord functions in Ionian. For example, given the chord progression G C in C major, we can substitute Fm for G, and it resolves rather well onto C. We still perceive C as the tonal center of the piece. In other modes, however, the tonal ``center of gravity'' is weak. If I have a progression in F Lydian, such as F G Em, then I have to keep playing chords with the raised fourth in order to maintain the Lydian tonality. If I take from F Phrygian E-flat minor, which is the negative modal substitute for G, and play F E-flat m Em, then my progression doesn't sound recognizably Lydian. It might sound cool, but it won't sound dreamy and Lydian, and it will probably obscure F as a tonal center. So it seems that I am out of luck if I want to expand the palette of chords in F Lydian. Even so, if what I've said is true, I still wonder whether negative modal harmony might be put to good use. What say you, Tommaso?
If you want to expand the chord palette IN Lydian AND you want to use notes OUTSIDE of Lydian, then you are asking for a contradiction (assuming I understood the question). Negative Harmony gives you a contrasting color, not a similar one. But yes, these chords are still usable in an F Lydian progressions - and of course they won't sound like Lydian. The same happens with major/ionian and minor/aeolian.
@@MusicTheoryForGuitar Yeah, I suppose what I was saying is that we can import other chords into major without blurring the tonal center too much, but that we can't do so for the other modes, since they're inherently less stable. That makes my point much more concisely! On an unrelated matter, I wonder what you think of so-called ``axis theory'', where all 12 triads are divided into tonic, subdominant, and dominant functions. Perhaps I will encounter this in your Chord Mastery course, but if not, it would be nice to hear any thoughts. Thanks again for another thought-provoking video!
music theory for power metal
As always, I love your content, but why did you flip the A to E in Locrian? I feel like it should have flipped to Eb, otherwise the axis isn't actually bewteen the root and fifth of the scale, which would in this case be a diminished fifth.
If you flip it the same way as you did with the others (between the 1 and 5 of the scale), the negative harmony transformation of A locrian is just A locrian again.
It's only if you move the fifth of locrian up to a perfect THEN flip it that locrian would flip up a half step.
That's an interesting idea.
Although, having said that, your way of tying the pivot to the key instead of the scale highlights the spiral of brightness, or that locrian is actually lydian #1, and is therefore also an even brighter scale...
It appears like Negative harmony is well-defined for scales that do have a P5, while there are two possible 'extensions' for scales that do not have a P5. Clearly the two extensions have different properties. Very interesting, thanks!
@@MusicTheoryForGuitar I've commented at another of your webpages about this. What happens is that you get two fixed pitches (if the tonic is C, they're A and E♭), which is a lot like "mirror harmony".
EVERYBODY GOES LIKE "IHI CANT USE LOCRIAN BECAUSE HE DOESNT HAVE A PERFECT FIFTH"
LEMME TELL YOU SOMETHING. YOU DONT HAVE IT EITHER AMD I STILL LIKE YOUR VIDEOS
Your theory is very interesting, but when you flip positive modes into their negative equivalents you change the tonic, as in A vs E in your examples. Why should you rephrase the negative modes so they start with A? A scale is supposed to begin with the first degree in all cases, including negative scales, so the negative equivalents of A-based modal scales should be E-based modal scales, in my opinion. If you do so, the bright-turns-to-dark theory doesn't work any more, or does it? I'd like to know your opinion. Thanks!
Sure, it's in the second half of this video: ua-cam.com/video/KZzqjHrlugY/v-deo.html
Ok now the second half of the video really turned negative harmony upside down for me. I’ve been watching the negative harmony series. Trying to put this all together. I was hoping there was some shortcut that I could quickly pull out a negative harmony chord while improvising. When you broke down what each NH translated to. I then though if the NH of Dorian is Mixolydian, then in the C Ionian scale, would Dm become Em in the NH? But it doesn’t, it becomes Bbm. What you don’t show in this video is how the mode needs to be cut in half to find the NH. Say Phrygian. Where is the split in the circle to find NH for each chord in that scale.
the NH split: the 1 of the mode always becomes the 5 in the mode, and vice versa.
If you let the root be the point of transformation, minor through Locrian replace Dorian-Phrygian.
Is there any advantage in doing that?
@@MusicTheoryForGuitar Not that I know, except seeing how each in a pair is the inversion of the other (12Tone and Ian Ring's Exciting Universe website taught me that)
Thanks - just making sure. I prefer to do the inversion as I do because 1. it's the version actually used by the musicians who popularized negative harmony and 2. because major modes go into minor modes and vice versa.
I don’t fully understand what you mean by bright and dark modes according to the amount of sharps in the mode.
An A Ionian has more sharps than a C Ionian. Both are the ionian mode witch sounds the same in any key. It’s the happy pop mode. Sharps only matter if you look at it as notes (letters), but if you don’t ever look at it as notes, then you won’t have sharps. Example 1, 4, 5. Sharps don’t change the character but modes do. But if you play the modes in their original position, none of the modes will have a sharp and they will still have dark or bright sound to them (according to what mode).
You can transport a song into a different key one half step and it will be the same mode and will now have a different amount of sharps but it won’t sound brighter or darker or different because most people won’t even know it was one step higher in tune. Btw, you are way more knowledgeable about music theory than I am, this is why I am learning from you. I have learned more and understood more theory from you than anyone else so far.
It was just this one thing that doesn’t click for me.
X lydian has always more sharps than X ionian, regardless if X = A, B, C, F#, G#, etc..
What about F Lydian?
A flat is a negative sharp so F Lydian has 'one more sharp' than F Ionian.
Pivot chords explanation please ? And scale modes modulation can any one explain what the purpose of pivot chords
I really like the vid, it’s a cool concept, but I have to disagree with your idea of the way it should be ordered. I agree with the order of the modes, lyd, ion, mixo... but I disagree on the #4, #3, #2... basis.
I think it should be ordered based on overall brightness, based on the reciprocal mode of each. For example,
The inversion of Dorian, is Dorian. So that should be the 0. Cause it’s neutral, and every other mode should be +3, +2, +1, and -1, -2, -3.
The concept of sharps just doesn’t make sense, because you could take the key of C, rather than A for instance, and in that key, C Ion, would be 0#. Just thought I’d give my two cents, it just seemed to make more sense to me this way.
The sharps are relative brightness (for scales that have the same tonic), not absolute brightness.
MusicTheoryForGuitar ohhhhhh, that makes sense. thanks for replying!
Now I remembered the famous legend when you play a particular album backwards you will hear some kind of satanic message.
It can be worse: it can sound locrian!
HAHAHA, yes!
Дякую! )
A few observations. Someone help me with my breakdown in logic. Each mode represents a “relative” major scale, or Ionian mode. For example, A-Lydian, used in the video, is the 4th mode of the key of E major (E Ionian), not A-major, so why wouldn’t you redraw the circle for E major and draw different lines to different notes? This would obviously produce the parallel minor, E minor. The relative major of E minor is G major, which would produce A-Dorian, not A-Phrygian. Also, in another video, you drew the chromatic scale clockwise, instead of the Circle of 5ths, then divided the circle horizontally, not vertically, which worked out the same. I don’t understand that.
The root of A Lydian is A. Not E :-) I don't know when and where this "relative major scale" idea started, but it's misleading. Modes are scales in their own right, that happen to be relative to a major scale. So what? :-) A minor is relative to C major, but the root is A, not C.
MusicTheoryForGuitar I see your point. This is new theory for me. Something I have noticed that may be of interest. If you raise all the notes in any key by a minor third, you end up with the new key that your diagram produces. Let’s use A-major for example. If you raise all the notes in the key of A-major by a minor third, you end up with the notes in A-minor, the parallel (not relative) minor, which is diatonically the key of C-major. And, if you raise all those notes a minor third, you get the notes in C-minor, diatonically the key of Eb-major....and so on. This produces the same results as the diagram you give. Except, it doesn’t work with the modes for some reason.
On Planet Pluto, they use the Locrian mode almost exclusively.
HAHAHA :-)
Super Locrian
Well, maybe that's the reason why has been sucked from the Solar System and now is not a planet anymore.
Tommaso, dove vivi? E' possibile avere lezioni personalizzate, magari in piccoli gruppi?
How does this work with modes outside of the major scale?
Do you mean like Harmonic minor or Melodic minor? I'd be curious too.
Because all 4 minor modes were included (they are 4 of the modes). Remember there is no "minor key" really, just 12 major keys and their minor and major modes. For example "the key of A minor" always refers to the relative minor mode of C key, which is the A aeolian mode, which was shown in this video along with all modes starting on A.
Exactly what I wanted to know. Theoretically, as long as the mode has a perfect 5th, it is worth giving it a try.
It is impossible to create a harmonic or melodic minor variant of the circle of fifths. So we need to use the regular circle of fifths. If I take the A harmonic minor scale and mirror it, I end up with the G# Dorian b2 which is the 2nd mode of melodic minor. I haven't tried other scales yet.
The go crazy. HarmMinor creates HarmMajor (Major B6) and MelodicMinor creates MelodicMajor (Major b6 b7)
Interestingly, HMajor has more behaved modes, you can name them based on the natural major, in the same order. But MMajor behaves like if you started from Mixolydian (cuz of the b7) and you get some weird inverted modes like MMajor bVI: 1 2 3 #4 #5 6 7. It is PHRYGIAN b1. For real.
10:00... Zappa?
No. He used the Lydian mode a lot (spelled CDEF♯GAB not CDEFG♭AB). Dorian would require a D♭ instead of a D.
In your another video where you explain negative harmony, while flipping C becomes G, D becomes F, A becomes Bb. So why they are in a different order here? Why you changed the axis? Can we flip the notes around any axis we want? Either i couldn't get the point or you messed up everything in this video
Flipping is always between the 1st note of the key and the 5th note of the key.
In the key of C, CG.
In the key of A, AE.
@@MusicTheoryForGuitar oh sorry. I forgot that we are in a different key here. Thanks for your reply!
I don't understand the difference between D# and Eb. I thought it's the same note?
It's the same sound, but its name depends on the scale/tonality you use. Some scales use sharps and other flats to name the same notes.
Look for the 12 major scales over the circle of 5ths, and you'll notice the pattern.
为何全是中文标题又没有中文字幕？
Locrian = mixolydian b5
Nope
bcdefga - locrian
b=d
c=c#
d=b
e = a
f=g#
g=f#
a=e
e f# g# a b c# d = mixolydian
now is good :>
Try Phrygian ♭5.
Help! I seem to be getting ion to phr when I flip A Major?
Oh wait - E phr but A Aeol.. Lol
A locrian is still E lydian
Doesn't Dorian Flip Itself?
Let's take D Dorian. In order for the Dorian mode to flip itself, the D has to be mapped to D. But Zillio's Negative Harmony doesn't have any pitches that are fixed. (This is referred to as "mirror harmony" in other places on this page.)
Locrian is always the lonely guy
Why do we need to study this....can someone pls make me understand the necessity of this modes... ???
You don't "need" to. Negative Harmony is an interesting thing that opens more options.
Has anyone tried his paid course and can talk abour your experience with it?
www.musictheoryforguitar.com/music-theory-students.html
PLEASE RESPECT LOCRIAN
Locrian doesn't fit the system? Well, I didn't see *that* coming. [/sarcasm]
This matching of modes is confusing. Melody and Harmony should not conflict with each other. Major-phrygian, lydian-locrian, mixolydian-aeonian, dorian-dorian should be the right matching in any case. If you listen to a song converted from major scale by negative melody/harmony, you can clearly identify that it is a Phrygian song with chord progression similar to minor scale (but valid for Phrygian), rather than a aeolian song.
It's totally wrong, because on modal harmony you don't use tonic/dominant relation, you only reverse the intervals ! So Ionian has Phrygian as a negative, Lydian has Locrian, Mixolydian has Aeolian and Dorian has Dorian !
Look on Ron Miller's book
Playlist for you that will explain - if you watch all the videos - why you don't just 'reverse' ('invert' would be more correct) the intervals: ua-cam.com/video/1b4tImOwBI4/v-deo.html
#Locrianacceptance
Is this the guy from virtual barbershop? lmao
I guess what you do cant be universally true to other keys than A. You take A as the ground and counts sharps but the A has already sharps because the sharps are related to the C key. So if you switch to any other key everything you explain here flips to an other relation between modes.
It works in every key. Just be sure to flip the notes on the axis between minor and major 3rd of the scale.
so uh....
how do I write music with negative harmony exactly instead of just writing using modal interchange like a musician would anyway? 😂
Uh.. this way? ua-cam.com/video/heISdRNnEnw/v-deo.html :)
@@MusicTheoryForGuitar 😂😭 ACTUALLY thank you. Oh my.
My pleasure :)
Hi Tomasso, if you would like a deeper insight into this subject please send me a personal messsage. I have authored a paper that explains diatonic modal symmetry that a Physicist and guitar teacher would appreciate. /Greg
Well, I am very curious about that :-) Could you send your article (or a link for it) at tommaso@musictheoryforguitar.com ? Thanks :)
Music college? Naaaaa watch this channel
My mind is already tired... this is like a rival between christian science and real scientists. Idk which sounds more correct.
Negative harmony is not a rival to 'normal' harmony. The two are perfectly compatible.
this is witchcraft lol
HAHA, it kinda is :)