What's the best revenge moment in all of fiction!? Watch my exclusive video on writing intense emotions go.nebula.tv/hellofutureme + LFSC's video on incorporating your character's ghost into the story (looking at Star Wars: Fallen Order!) ~ Tim
Not specifically moments, but stories. One of my favorites isn't focused around the revenge of the protagonist, but the antagonist. Law Abiding Citizen, with Jamie Fox and Gerard Butler. Mostly because you can empathize so much with Butler's character, and the commentary about how broken/abusable the justice system is. Honorable mentions would be Code Geass, which isn't wholly focused around revenge but has good elements of it in the course of grander corruption arcs. And Lucky Number Slevin, which plays it well as a twist angle. Can't wait for On Writing & Worldbuilding 3!
I'm a huge fan of Digimon Tamers. When Takato force evolves Gelomon into a living doomsday to kill Bealvamon for killing Leomon, Jarys Digimon, is traumatically cathartic because of how much I saw myself in Takato. It did a lot to force me to confront how destructive my anger can be and to try and find healthier ways of expressing it then lashing out. It is all too easy to hurt those you care about when you rage. I do my best to stop when my anger swells and confront the consequences before I lose control.
Can think of two, but aren't the main antagonists on their Revenge Arc. Star Trek: Wrath of Khan, we see how Khan getting his revenge of Khan costs him everything, after he had everything he wanted. But more so how it shows a jaded view of how Kirk lives, comes in solves the issue of the week, cost him nothing major, and jets off, and that isn't what happens in this film, but allows us to look at Kirk through new light. And Batman: Mask of the Phantasm, Andreas revenge is a reflection of Bruce's quest, on how it cost her every possible moment of happiness, where Bruce's quest for vengeance morphing into Justice has allowed him to not fall into the same trap.
I think there is something really important in Katara's revenge arc, going through it allowed her to forgive Zuko. The man who killed her mother is not worthy of forgiveness and Katara isn't a person who can kill him but confronting that shows her how much Zuko is trying to change for the better, how he is worthy to be forgiven instead.
@@shadowofchaos7675 I would like to express the caveat that you shouldn't simply decide by yourself that someone isn't worthy of forgiveness, look at what Katara had to go threw to come to that conclusion, how much she had to first understand the person who killed her mother. If she had simply decided by herself she wouldn't have been able to forgive Zuko, never would have understood that she wasn't able to kill him because it would take too much of herself to do so. In the end the man wasn't worth it and time has found its own way of punish him.
For Jon Wick, it was never about killing the dog. It was what the dog represented. His wife was that one ray of sunshine in his dark and bloody life. So when she died, the dog was a way for him to have someone with hi, so he wouldn't be alone again. Killing the dog took away his final connection to his wife, and someone had to pay. Beautifully done.
(Spoilers for John Wick 4) Like the dog was always a joke but it was all about its connection with his wife at the end of it all. When he said he wants ‘Loving Husband’ on his gravestone, it really hit me that he was driven by his grief.
Yeah, yeah I think we all know that... but it doesn't change the fact that he starts killing what hundreds of people for a fucking dog... I mean, I am going to be honest some guys breaking into my home beating the shit out of me, stealing my car and killing my pet, yeah I would also be pissed and someone like John Wick has the means to get his revenge... but the focus on the dog was so extreme that it left you wonder why so much death...
@@jackwriter1908 you have to remember that this guy is assassin underground secret Society of assassins or violence and killing, is so common place that he is probably more than numb to it I really don’t think John has the greatest coping skills, so him going berserk over a fucking dog, is kind of on point for the character they’re trying to portray He has absolutely nothing left in his mind, and a peaceful life is pretty much dragged out from beneath him, because he has no ability to stop himself from lashing out and giving into his base desires
@@JA-lr5ix oh no I understand that he is a killer and for him killing a bunch of people who have nothing to do with it would be normal. I mean in the second movie he is "forced" to kill a friend of his, because of some rules (which he later breaks anyways) and after that decides to kill all of his friends men as well... _I don't want to do this, I am sorry. But he said I have to kill you, to be free. And now I kill every last one of your men as well, free of charge._ The problem is that for the watchers he is starting to kill dozens of people for a fucking dog. No matter how little he could care about murdering people, for the audience it is still a little jump from: _You killed my dog._ to _Now I will kill every last one who has some connection to you._
Carrie for me is such a fantastic example of a revenge story because it’s almost less a revenge and more of a tragedy. Carrie’s revenge isn’t just a thing happening because she was bullied, but because her entire life both in her home life and school, she’s been abused, isolated, looked down upon, but this date at the prom was the one moment she felt she could be accepted. And on her way there, she’s cautious, she’s sure this is some trick and that any moment the rug is going to be pulled out from under her. But as the night goes on, she becomes more hopeful, she begins to let her guard down, and when she gets elected prom Queen, the book goes into so much detail explaining how happy Carrie is, how she’s finally going to be accepted by others and maybe those days of being isolated and shamed will finally be over. (The movie also shows this phenomenally, Carrie’s actor did amazing in that scene at really selling that emotion) Then suddenly, the pig blood spills on her, and it’s tragic, not only because of it ruining Carrie’s night, but because even though we know it was this jealous girl and her shitty boyfriend that did it, Carrie’s entire understanding of the night unravels as she wonders if EVERYONE was in on it and if this was another trick on her. Right when she thought she had a chance of hope, it’s violently shattered. And Carrie snaps.
Southern Raiders is one of my favourite episodes of TV ever and I really adore the journey Katara takes through it. Drives me up the wall when people say Zuko just wanted her to kill someone to suck up to her and she listened to Aang in the end. Zuko helped her find closure, whatever decision she made. Ultimately she chose her own path and I thought it was extremely meaningful.
Unpopular Opinion: I don't think The Southern Raiders is that great, mainly because of Zuko, the whole point of it was so Katara could forgive him, he helped her find closure but his intent was so she would forgive him, also isn't forgiveness kind of what he sought from The Gaang a few episodes ago, all of a sudden, he's on forgiveness is the same as doing nothing. I just never liked that part and it holds the episode back for him, if he said that he was trying to rewrite his wrongs and that Katara needed this to gain closure, he doesn't need to say it out like this but you get the point, no question it'd be a Top 5 Episode but as it stands, it's still a great episode but not Top 5, don't @ me.
Sweeney Todd is one of my favorite revenge stories - the film doesn’t fully give you the same sense as the stage show. Great examination of how class and access turns Sweeney’s personal rage into out and out nihilism. The class angle is what makes it stand out to me.
Beadle Bamford tells judge Turpin at court that the child must have done something to warrant a hanging. Judge Turpin responds with "Who in this world has not." I think Judge Turpin knows exactly what he's done without knowing how it's affected others. This is portrayed a little more in the actual stage production than it is in the film. All this to say that killing Judge Turpin is not necessarily a bad thing, Sweeney is just doing it of his own accord since the legal system can't or won't do anything for him. Favorite musical with an excellent display of character and motivations. Everyone's out for themselves and "We all deserve to die." At least Sweeney was self aware.
Being a nerdy swedish kid, I read quite a few of the icelandic sagas. They are mostly about revenge. Because those icelandic early medieval farmers were a maffia society and the vendetta was their basic societal structure for sanctioning unwanted behavior. Doing your best to get vengeance for wrongs isn't a great dramatic resolution, or a tragic failure, it is as natural as laughing at a funny joke or crying over a dead family member. It's just what you do. These stories are mostly tragedies though. Stories where the initial beef is trivial, feuds go on for generations and the main protagonists are both "the good guys" or what passes for it in late viking society. Their conflicts are understandable, their actions are justified (more or less) but the outcomes are often gigantic shit-showers. For the people who wrote these stories, the revenge arc wasn't fiction, it was a fundamental part of their society and culture, and they knew from personal experience exactly how dysfunctional it was. Anyway, in your personal life, if you ever feel wronged and entitled to some vengeance, move on. Forgiveness isn't the panacea it's cracked up to be, it generally doesn't bring closure or makes you feel better. But it isn't quite as harmful as spending your time and emotional energy thinking on how you were wronged and on sadistic fantasies about what you're going to do to the bastards for it. Now, if chance should serve you up a good opportunity, by all means, throw a good old kick in the balls. That might indeed give you some satisfaction, or so I've heard. But don't tell yourself it's for justice or making the world a better place. And definitely don't spend your time stewing in your lust for it.
Yeah the anime series Vinland Saga is based on one of those sagas and it's really good. Had never seen a revenge story like the one depicted there before
Yeah, as an icelandic kid, I often noticed just how many of the sagas were about revenge, and as you stated, not just one killing or anything, these revenge killings went on for many generations. But society has changed, I haven't felt the urge to avenge anyone in my family, at least not yet
beautifully said. Its almost a sisiphian situation, we start the movie at the top, while the boulder is starting to fall off, and the pushing up was the backstory
Kaz Brekker from Six of Crows, anyone? I’m not usually for characters whose main goal is revenge, but Kaz was so well written. One reason I kept reading was to figure out why he wanted revenge so badly since you go for so long not knowing. And it just shows how much sacrifice and toiling his done for years to try to get to a place where he can find what he thinks will emotionally heal him (though it can be argued that he doesn’t even want emotionally healing since he’s so wrapped up in the darkness of what he’s been through and what he wants). Anyway, great video, as always!
Something about the phrasing "Roy Mustang, who wants revenge for the death of his coworker" is sending me. You're absolutely correct but it's also just the funniest way you could have summarized it
In Full Metal Alchemist-Brotherhood, the best part about the multiple revenge arcs and stories is that they are all different and is a master class in how not to do the normal revenge arc: *Spoilers* -Whinry . Never knew she wanted revenge and given the chance and every excuse and as much as she wanted it, she can’t do it. She freezes up and is then being comforted by Ed when he tells her she couldn’t because have was made for a different thing - Scar. He has the strongest arc as he does do revenge killings but it doesn’t help. He wants to die more and more and even twice tells Whinry that she has the right to do him. But she can’t. He is told by his elders and then Whinry that it is evil. He runs into many people and learns that there is more then revenge. But ultimately learns he has to move past it. Make no mistake he still feels the need to revenge but let’s it go. And the irony is that he ultimately kills the person that was arguably the being most responsible for it but to save the world. All at a cost of accepting the unacceptable. - Roy- hunts down his quarry and then is forced to see in no uncertain terms what his revenge will cost him. And even though he wants it, needs it like his next breath, he learns how big the cost is and how many will pay the price and he backs away. But not one person does a false equivalence. Not one person really forgives and not a bit of forgetting happens. Revenge is complicated and tragic and the author makes it clear there is no balancing the scales.
Having just watched it it does feel a bit like there is some forgiveness. It preaches that the Ishvalan people have to in effect forgive and assist the rest of the country after the atrocities they experienced. The correct way to survive after your people have been genocided is to protect the people and change their perception by being a good person or a pristine example to them. You can not be angry, spiteful or unaccepting when you have to the best version of yourself constantly. This is where i think the anime also falls apart in its otherwise very thorough exploration of the minority experience after immense injustice.
@@olo4704 I think the he anime is very complicated and it is great to talk about it abit but I will point out characters ask and admit where they stand on this point. And it is pointedly said that that is no forgiveness for especially for wantons murder. While all the military is apologizing and work to try to make things better; scar and the isbalans never say they forgive. The elders say as much that you don’t have to forgive and they have to abide and rebuild . I think the isbalans had a pov that was best stated by BSG2k - The war is over; we have to go and start having babies. Roy certainly did not forgive and Hawkeye made it clear that Envy was only going to be on the road to hell no matter what. Even Whinry does not forgive what Scar did and doubles down that murder is wrong no matter what. The thing you see over and over is the persons that did the wrong apologizing and trying to make at least make amends.
@@olo4704 honestly that is Not what i saw in that arc. I didnt See forgiveness on the Side of the ishbalans. i saw an attempt to move on and work with the amestrians. But Not Out of forgiveness but Out of sheer necessity. Because scar carrying Out His Revenge doesnt save His people, it only makes them more vulnerable. Not working with the amestrians Just isnt an Option, because ishbalans are a minority, and they do Not have the means, the Power, the Money or the infrastructure to rebuild their Nation without amestris letting them do it. I didnt even See the need to be a pristine minority. The Last scenes Show scar in traditional Outfit teaching His own people. He has to Work with the Military to do that, but moving on from Revenge and forgiveness are Not the same Thing. Noone forgives. They do what they have to to have a Chance. Which is Frustrating but also one of the realest Explorations of what IT means to be in that Position. It is Not a fairytale of taking back your country after it and it's culture have been destroyed. Its about trying to rebuild, but the Framework has changed. Maybe one day ishbal will regain its Independence, but at the end of the Show, 8 years after the war of exterminatipn, that is Not a feasible Option.
A great thing to keep in mind with revenge plots (can't remember where I heard it from) is that revenge is rarely ever what a person or character actually wants but what they do want feels impossible to get now so revenge is the second best option to them. If they are seeking revenge for the murder of their family then they might have just wanted more time with their loves ones. If they are seeking revenge for a way they have been hurt personally maybe they just want the other person to understand the pain they caused them. So if these things seem impossible (the family isn't coming back or the target of revenge seems incapable of remorse/consequences).... what would that revenge seeker do if they are proven wrong and the thing they thought they couldn't have they actually can.... or even just being confronted by other characters with making them acknowledge what it is they actually want instead of that revenge.
This made me think of the movie, Bullet Train. It's all about revenge (though it's not initially framed that way) and though it's basically an action comedy that keeps you laughing throughout, it has a lot to say about how the pursuit of revenge twists the lives of even those who are only peripherally connected to the inciting event(s).
Aang is probably supportive about Katara not taken revenge on the guy that killed her mother because he would have killed those sand benders if Katara didn't stop him.
I'm trying to write a fantasy character whose whole whole deal is sorta like that. His mother was a murderer, and she was executed for that when he was about ten. He actually agrees with that; he knows she was a monster and that he probably wouldn't have survived to adulthood if he was left with her. No, what he has an issue with is that the state only did the easy part. They dealt with the murderer, but she wasn't the only one who was punished. A monster she might have been, but she was still all a young child who was completely left on his own after her death had. He had to effectively raise himself in the underworld because of the justice system's actions. And so far as he's concerned, that's not justice. Not at all. He absolutely hates most of the more civilized world, feeling that they're a bunch of hypocrites, caring about justice for - venegeance against - the wrongdoers, which is great, but never caring at all about protecting the innocent. They're happy to deal with the adult murderers, but they're not willing to worry about their children. They care about attacking the people who victimize prostitutes, but they do nothing to protect the women themselves. Kasim, as one of the victims of that exact mentality, starts out trying to fill that one role that everyone else refuses to.
@@kingofhearts3185 It's the result of another weird (I hope) setup within the same story. I was playing with the Chosen One trope, and what I ended up with was your typical prophecy about the chosen hero slaying the monster or saving the world or whatever, I haven't decided that part yet, and part of the prophecy is that the chosen hero will come to the city this character - Kasim - lives in and destroy it. The leadership of this city are understandably perturbed by this. They end up turning to Kasim - that character I was talking about in the previous comment - and saying, essentially, "It's fate for this to happen. You're a criminal. You're an expert on breaking the rules and getting away with it. Well, now we need you to scam fate. Call it community service." Kasim is our main character, not the chosen one. His job is to stop the chosen one. I wanted there to be some detailed conflict between him and the city leadership, and I wanted him to have some reasonable motive. The previous rant about him believing that justice, as practiced by the state, tends to deal with the symptom rather than the actual problem, was what I came up with. From there I turned him into exhibit A of his own ideology. Even he agrees that his mother is better off dead, but he still thinks the city is evil for leaving her children to the mercies of the underworld.
Gus Fring, in Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul, has one of the greatest examples of fictional characters revenge character arcs and storylines in any medium of fiction.
When you mentioned justice and revenge, it reminded me of a quote from a book that's stuck with me. I can't remember it word for word, but it was something to the effect of "Justice and revenge are not the same thing. Though sometimes they can have the same outcome".
'Okay, I'll do the bed last.' Man, that's amazing writing right there. I'm tearing up at that line and I don't know if I would have understood it the same way a dacade or two ago. There's so many small things in those memories, so much love. I never lost a child, but I've lost people. And... doing the bed last? I've been there. Of course it's not always a bed. Sometimes it's a box of favourite chocolates where only one or two have ever been eaten in a futile attept to cherish it for longer. Sometimes it's banged up shoes with holes and rips that should have been thrown out years ago and you even remember mocking, so they would maybe go into the trash... These physical imprints can break your heart. You have perfectly caught the fleeting little things that make it so damn hard to make the bed, so god damn final. Truly amazing work!
Can we have On Writing videos on Comedy and Romance? Comedy is hard to writer, so if we could get tips on how to include jokes alongside action or dramatic moments, that'll be great. And Romance arcs are very common but not always done well. Some of my favourite stories are Avatar and Harry Potter, but Romance isn't exactly their greatest strength, to the point where people prefer making their own pairings with the characters. Contrast this with Percy Jackson, in which the canonical romance of the main character is the most popular, something I don't see in most other fandoms.
22:56 I Saw the Devil is another great example of this. The film is essentially about a serial killer who kills the pregnant fiancé of a NIS agent (basically S. Korean CIA). He’s able to track down the serial killer, but rather than turn the information he found over to the authorities or even just kill the guy, he starts stalking and randomly attacking and torching him but leaving the serial killer alive so he can torcher him all over again. It's a very good but very dark look at how the drive for revenge can destroy someone.
like all your videos, this is great advice not just for revenge. those intense emotions will be useful for so many different situations. Thanks for another great video ... they are so rewatchable too. Thanks heaps you've taught me a lot.
I feel like revenge stories that focus on letting go of the revenge or getting it then feeling empty/disappointed afterwards do have their merit, but they kinda started being everywhere and people got sick of them. In the instances where revenge is satisfying, which feel increasingly rare, they get pretty enthusiastic responses. I think it's why he count of monte Cristo and inigo's revenge in the princess bride kinda stick with us. Sometimes it feels good and justified. Letting go of the grievance done to you is not the only option, nor is it always the correct option.
Something you said in the video made me think of a recent epiphany I had. I was trying to think of ways to make my characters more active, and every action I thought of was rather cliche. So I started thinking about the most interesting characters I've ever read and how they acted. The answer is that their actions, even the small ones, were unique. And the objects they attached importance to were also unique. A man who lost his parents as a child and still mourns them is not unique in fiction. A man who obsessively carves their faces into every hard surface so he won't forget what they look like? That's somewhat interesting. The more specific the action is to a particular character, the more interesting that character.
My favorite revenge story off the top of my head is probably "Lady Snowblood". Yuki was literally born to take revenge so she doesn't even get a chance at a normal life, and I find it interesting how each of her targets has the kill made unsatisfying in some way.
One of the most important things I ever read (I wish I could remember where I read it!) was a character struggling to process their emotions “remembered…that anger is a secondary emotion.” We’re never angry just because something makes us angry, we’re angry in reaction to another emotion that came first; we’re angry because we’re hurting, we’re angry because we’re scared, etc. (I found that much more helpful from both a writing & personal angle than something like “the emotion behind the emotion,” because when you feel something so strongly it often feels like that’s all you are-your grief, your fear, your anger-there’s no *room* for anything else. Being able to go, “Okay, but *why* am I angry? What about this triggered that reaction?” has really helped me grow as a person, a communicator, and as both a creator & consumer of stories.)
This is exactly what George Lucas was trying to express in his prequel films, but he never really got across. It's at the heart of the pseudo Buddhist philosophy of the Jedi. Anger is just a cover for another emotion: fear, or grief or powerlessness.
Nie Huisang's revenge in The Untamed combines so many of the most delicious elements here: it brings him peace to avenge his brother, he exposes a master manipulator who's Imposter Syndrome leads to at least 40-50 deaths, he gets the main couple back together by orchestrating the return from the dead of one of them, and he gets to go a little disproportionate on the man who forced his brother to maintain ties with his killer by destroying his ability to trust. No one's doing it like Nie Mingjue's didi
I'm glad you brought up Tyrion's corruption after killing Tywin in the books. One of the other things I like about aSoIaF is that the whole 'revenge is bad' theme isn't just conveyed through the morally wrong actions that the characters take, but also through it just not being worth the practical cost. In her speech to the sand snakes, Ellaria Sand points to how Oberyn killing the Mountain is ultimately meaningless to her, because it resulted in his death, and though she points out how hollow it is to continue to pursue vengeance when all the people directly responsible for the Martells' suffering are dead, her argument is less about whether it's morally right and more about how she doesn't want to lose her children.
This video helped to get some clear thoughts about my NaNo-projects this year. Both of them deal with the topic of revenge, giving a revenge stroy to a major side character that gets heavily intertwined with the MCs storyline, bringing it all together. I think your video gave me some insight I can take with me and think about to better bring the first draft to an end - as for one of those stories I didn't even know where it should end *lol*
It is proper weird imagining Keanu Reeves as a full on vengeful killing machine. Especially when he is the kindest, softest, sweetest person, morally righteous you'll ever meet. He is a good guy in real life. But John Wick is one scary guy.
@@Duiker36 I know what acting is. It is inhabiting a different role. Playing a character other than yourself. I was saying that so many actors don't do this. They play exaggerated versions of themselves. Take Dwane "The Rock" Johnson for example. He plays himself. A good example of an actor would be someone like Daniel Day-Lewis. He plays different roles. When I see a performance by him, I don't think "Hey that's Daniel Day-Lewis". Keanu Reeves is doing proper acting as John Wick, as he is playing a character as opposed to just playing himself.
One of my favorite revenge stories is from Octopath Traveler. Primrose's entire storyline is about getting revenge for the murder of her father, but a major part of the storyline is what she's willing to endure to get that revenge and the question of whether there will be anything left of her when she's done. You can see and feel the emotional impact of what she'd facing while hunting her father's killers, but also the turmoil underneath as she gets closer and closer to ending the chase.
This was probably one of the most helpful videos I've ever watched for characterizing and developing the characters of my book, and the ironic thing is that it's because I've decided the main character actually doesn't want revenge, at least personally, he's been pretty sheltered all things considered and is only acting as an undercover assassin essentially because the people he loves have had it that rough and want revenge, but that really shows that he chameleons to what others want instead of his own wants and feelings,, which is mirrored in that his powers are to copy other powers, so he's essentially a knockoff of anyone else's powers, and a knockoff of the rest of the rebellions motivation,,, paired with the fact that the person he's tasked to kill is actually innocent and not the one who has caused all the strife,, he finally breaks out by refusing to enact the revenge, even if those he love want it, since he has that layer of removal since he was too young to really remember his parents or loved ones dying at the hands of the corrupt government like the others in the rebellion,, so he has the unique viewpoint where he can sympathize more with the future monarch who hasn't actually done anything wrong himself and see that if he killed the prince, it would just result in more radicalization and not actually fix the problem,,, and chaos ensues
For me, it’d be because the motives are a bit... eh? Most of the time it seems bad for me is when the motive is petty, and makes said character with the motive seem... childish? Which is fine if it’s a childish character learning to mature or something (or an actual teenager or child), but most of the time it’s characters who are portrayed as smart or similar, but end up doing/saying things that contradict that (That being said, writing child characters, or characters who’re more intelligent than you, or similar would be an interesting topic, beyond me at least) So you get a person who is portrayed as reasonable, but has the dumbest reason/goal for revenge Something like if a character’s sibling dies or something, they decide to become a dark lord and inflict the same pain into the world It’s a flaccid reason, which as they’re portrayed with reason/intelligence, should be able to figure out That being said, if a villain/revenge character is meant to be boring/only have one motive for a good reason, it can work The problem is when there’s no good reason and the character is meant to be interesting (The best example I’ve seen is Sasuke from Naruto, he’s supposedto be portrayed as a complex character, but just comes off as dull to most people)
get you, exactly for that reason I hated revenge plots as a kid, it seemed just so stupid, by now I found a few select ones that where good for they where actually interesting! The worst thing about Sasuke is the lack of in universe consequences and the real world consequence of this supposedly cool guy getting copy and pasted into endlessly many stories . . . There are exactly 2 cases I am aware of, that managed to writhe that sasuke typ of character well and interesting. Example Yuu Kanda from d gray man who apears have the exact same flaws, but then you learn despite him looking the oldest from the main 4, is actually the youngest and was a tube baby so he genuinly lacks the experience and maturity to make better informed decissions, he acts childish as hell? Well, he is a child and on top of that forced to act as a child soldier by the people who wronged him . . . even more importently though is, that he gets character development. Belivabe character development and proves beyond a doubt, that he wants to do better! He aknowlages the errors of his pasts and is willing to sacrifice everything to make it up without having a sudden 180 degree turn around. He still struggles, but he shows effort and gets results nd it does not stand opposed to who he was before, he was not beyond redemption, he was just a mess.
I was just reading Hamlet. It's fascinating how his obsession and hesitation build into this downward spiral. The deaths are inevitable, and that makes his arc all the more tragic.
Hey @HelloFutureMe! My favorite revenge moment? Toss up between Inigo in The Princess Bride and The Legend Of Luke from the Redwall series! So happy that you're publishing a novel! I haven't checked out your writing guides yet, but plan to because I’m always reading them! Have some stuff on some online platforms, but also wrote a full-length story. It might be up your alley! Keep up the great work👍✍️📝
I know that revenge is often portrayed as a bad thing and with many unforeseen consequences (rightfully so), but there is something very cathartic about good old fashioned revenge. Odysseus getting revenge at the end of his journey by murdering everyone has something cathartic about it
yeah, cause mass murder is such a great thing . . . the only cases where I aprove of revenge is when there actually comes something good out of it, if it actually is about justice and does make things better for people! Like "promising young woman" she uses karmic justice to get people to see where they where wrong and get them to want to improve, to be better and crime not to go unpunished! She does not go on a murder spree, he punishments are relative to the offense and she backs of the moment her victim gets the point! Most importendly though, she does not take her grief and anger out on innocent people!!! And still she does not get glorefied for it!!!
@@SingingSealRiana I probably could have worded that better, but revenge doesn’t always have to result in murder sprees. Odysseus was simply the first example I could think of where his revenge was not realy portrayed as a bad thing with unforeseeable consequences. I guess a different example of this would be Rocky 4, where Rocky fights for revenge and wins in the end, but doesn’t kill his opponent like he did to Apollo. He got his revenge but also forgave him
@@scarletcroc3821I never really interpreted the slaughter of the suitors as revenge. Though From the point of view of Telemachus it definitely is because he directly had to put up with them. But for Odysseus I interpreted as mostly business especially because it’s portrayed as divinely sanctioned. The suitors broke the laws of hospitality (which I get the sense were a big deal culturally) by ‘overstaying their welcome’ to put it mildly.
@@scarletcroc3821 to be fair, the suiters are framed as very very disrespectful and unlikable, while odysseus is through all hells and feels like deserving of sacrificing g them to final get his home and peace back. Both together make no one that upset about their demise but still, it is about to spread and escalate between the suiters families and odyssey until deus ex machina Athena tells all of them of and odyssey barely complied, so revenge corrupts is even there part of the narrative!
Carrie I don't think ever had a sense of community with those around her. To me it is very much a story in the vein of 'the child not nurtured by the village will burnt it down to feel the warmth'.
Might be in the minority here, but I've always liked revenge stories where the character gets their revenge and instead of feeling empty o aimless afterward, they feel fulfilled then go on to live a happy or at least somewhat meaningful life life. Vengeance doesn't always need to be portrayed as a hollow path to self-destruction... as long as the character is smart about it and actually has some kind of goal beyond attaining it.
Couldnt agree more. Hell, my personal idea is to find out if you're not alone in seeking vengenance against this person. We need more stories of a group of revenge seekers, like Orient Express, The Boys and Big Fat Liar.
Agree they can be much more interesting especially if they come in the context of a different culture than your typical English written stories. Also really enjoy when the revenge actually grows out beyond just one act and becomes a mission to destroy or change the systems that enabled the initial catalyst for the revenge, The Boys is a great example
Exactly! You see them so rarely too, it's frustrating... One series I like in this regard is the anime "Moriarty the Patriot" - a lot of the people the main characters help get revenge do seem to find catharsis or at least some form of closure and as a result. Though it should be noted that the character William (who is the main mastermind behind these various revenge plots) isn't "fulfilled" so much as he resolved - he views his actions as neccesary, seems genuinely pleased that the people he's helped found some peace as a result, and thus doesn't regret his actions, but seems unable to view himself as "good" because of them all the same, and instead considers himself to be a neccesary evil. So while the show certainly frames revenge as cathartic for the people who were wronged, it also shows it as self-destructive for William.
I completely disagree to me seeking revenge is just the adult version of throwing a tantrum they can't cope with whatever bad thing happened to them so they freak out and break things.
I've utilized the properly placed 'Glib' reaction and evolve it into an in person 'Ghosting'. I've always considered the erasure of acknowledgment exceptionally powerful, but difficult to navigate, with ancillary character support and properly developed mindset of the recipient character & reader is an art . . .
I was typing out a comment about Stieg Larsson's Millenium trilogy when you started talking about it and I agree so much about Lisbeth's revenge being cathartic for her. Every time in her life she tried to get justice, she was punished for it. Watching her succeed and eventually get vindicated was so tremendous after learning everything she went through for no fault of her own.
Your writing analysis videos like this give so much information. This is gold! But I'm often left thinking: yeah, I cannot do that. I cannot posibly craft or write a complex story like Tim describes 😅 I guess is trial and error from here. Still, I appreciate these videos so much! Thank you ❤ (When I have money I would love to buy your worldbuilding books)
One of the best revenge stories I've experienced is the K-Drama My Name which combines everything you mentioned with excellent action and very neo noir atmosphere. I barreled through it twice in the weekend it came out.
Thank you for talking about revenge stories. I’ve been contemplating a revenge story but wasn’t quite sure what the elements around it were. This made it easier to get a better idea on how to go about it😊
I've had an idea for a story for... something like a decade at least. And I think your video just gave em the tools to turn that from an idea to something I can actually write. Might not be perfect, but it will be leagues better than what I could have done until now. I can actually picture the steps between the only two elements I had : the beginning and the ending. Hell, I can even picture how to detail better those two as well... Thank you, Tim.
As GRRM says, "the only thing worth writing about is the human heart in conflict with itself." You put people in challenging situations - be that grief, horror, whatever - and see how they react. We can't relate to a space monk fighting an evil emperor. We can relate to a young man trying to rescue his father, and to believing the best of people who don't believe it of themselves. We can't relate to a man killing 73 men in a couple of days of violent bloodletting. We can relate to a man's grief of losing his wife, dog and car in short order. If we didn't see the inciting incident of John's grief, the movie would be nothing more than well coreographed violence porn. It would be a terrible movie. Emotions are what we relate to. The best stories give us emotional characters and/or plots, and that's what gets us hooked.
For FMA with Roy Mustang: it's actually a great (and rare) example of the other characters acknowledging Envy needs to die but don't want Mustang to do it himself because of how much his rage is destroying him. Envy resultantly killing himself in despair at his failure is actually way more satisfying than if Mustang had just annihilated him.
In the Dishonored franchise, revenge is pretty much the only option, but the games make the player choose which kind of revenge to take. The more lethal revenge leads to a horrific fallout while the non-lethal revenge (which leads to dishonoring the target the same way the entire conspiracy dishonored the protagonist) leads to eventual peace and order.
28:12 My favorite example of this cliche is in one of the Transformers IDW comics. Ratchet (the old Autobot medic) and First Aid (his understudy) are discussing Pharma (basically Joker, as a Transformer medic), who has done a myriad of horrible things up to this point, and there's this exchange: Ratchet: No. If we kill him, we're no better than him. If we kill him, he wins. First Aid: Yeah, except we are better than him and he doesn't win. He doesn't anything. He's dead. That's the point.
I once heard this regarding Kill Bill and revenge stories: revenge is bad becouse is not about fixing an injustice or preventing furter crimes, is about a person who lost the sense of power or control over their life, reclaming that sense of control throught violence. In Kill Bill the Bride murders a mother almost besides her doughter becouse reclaming control was more important to her than the emotional well being of a child. And after making her an orphan she tells her that she will wait for her once she is old enough for her own revenge becouse the Bride knows she just wronged the girl in a similar way to how she was years before, but it doesn't matter, reclaming power is more important now that doing the right, moral thing. In John Wick, the story isn't really about vengence, becouse for all the shit the kid did to John, a phone call would have been enough to get justice. John didn't wanted justice, he wanted to mourn, and his anger, his impotence in front of the, aparently very long agony of his wife, broke him, and violence was the only way he knew how to express the trauma of his lost and the feeling of impotence. He couldn't save his wife, he couldn't save his dog, but he can kill a shit ton of people to feel like he is doing something, and there are a shit ton of gangsters who clearly deserve to die. Ultimately, revenge is evil, becouse is inherently an egotistical act, the reclamation of a lost sense of control throught violent means at the cost of that of the others, deserving or not. While justice on the other hand is a more complex act with multiple objectives, giving the victims a sense of security, preventing the repetition of the original crime and even looking if the original perpetrator can be rehabilitated or not. Justice is a complex comprehensive aproach, while revenge is an egotistical, narrow minded one. Of course, that doesn't mean that the two of them can't get mixed, which makes revenge stories so moraly interesting, where does the line between justice and revenge lies?
exactly this, revenge in the commen sense just spreads hurt, it harms you, those who care about you, whoever you target and a lot of people that had nothing to do with it! Characteristic for it is, that nothing good comes from it, no one is protected or saved and you do not get anything back, except maybe your sense of control. Justice or "good" revenge are situations, where you can get something back or punish someone in a way, that helps people. Make the recipient see where they did wrong so they will want to do better, make sure someone can not target other people again those typ of things. Taking away someones power to hurt others, give people closure. The thing about justice is, that it is proportional and that it does not harm innocent parties! One of the few revenge stories I like is Promising young woman, for her main focus is on getting people to aknowlage what they did wrong. she gives them a chance to show they are aware, a chance to show regret and if that is not fruitful, she constructs a situation where they feel the consequences their actions had on someone else but in a safe way. She tricks them to feel a small portion of the suffering they caused so they would act differently if ever in a similar situation again and still, her revenge is framed as consuming her life. And then there is leverage, where a team of illegal professions offer their services to desperet people who can not get justice, protection what ever by normal means, to then swindle steal and trick bad people to help their clients. They do genuine good and the punishment inacted is proportional to the offense
I recently started a D&D campaign with the goal of playing a character out for revenge, since I usually play Lawful Good characters. The conclusion I came to is to not portray the desire for revenge as unjust. My character watched his entire family die brutally for reasons they didn't deserve. They deserve justice. The problem is instead, what pursuing this revenge to its fullest would cost him. He's torn between wanting to alleviate his grief and anguish and give in to his anger and hatred, and honoring his family for who they were. His family were bards, artists, performers. They loved life, song, family. To reflect this, the DM has basically given me a choice: leaning more into revenge would give my character features similar to a Paladin, to reflect his absolute dedication to his mission, while leaning more into honoring his family would let him access their abilities. Its been a blast to explore the constant back and forth emotions he feels as he grapples with the intense guilt and grief
V for Vendetta is fantastic and I do my best to watch it every November 5th. I love Magneto's revenge in X-Men: First Class so much. He's killing Nazis which is always fun to see, and his revenge is incredibly damaging and self destructive (we literally see him almost drown in it) and Charles does his best to show Eric that he isn't just the monster he was made into; but Magneto ultimately decides revenge is what he wants and that deep down he is the villain.
3:22 - This is unrelated to anything really, but something that I find interesting here is how the POV character clearly views these lists or shortcomings as the _women's_ faults or lacking and things that the other women were for sure in any way responsible for and that were not completely outside of those other women's own control, but realistically-speaking that's not necessarily an accurate or true opinion/perception of those women or their situations at all. Also, I find the word "undisciplined" an extremely odd/unusual and almost incongruent choice of words to insert here, unless perhaps if it is being utilized more in a sense of being 'unprincipled' or something. (It all seems to combine and set a certain kinda stage really well, I think!) 😊 Just a few random thoughts that came to mind during the reading of that particular passage of text; but maybe that's just me!
I think one of my favorite revenge stories is 91 Days, a little-known anime that sees a man joining the mafia to take it down from within after they killed his family. It hits all the Shakespearian revenge tragedy beats in the best way as he throws everything away in the name of revenge the deeper in he gets.
Such a great video, per usual. Reminding me of lots of great media. I always enjoy your break downs and how you find things i overlooked on my watch and i get greater appreciation for it! Thank you.
Naomi Alderman's "The Power" does all of this beautifully at both a micro and macro level. Without spoiling details for anyone who's only watched the show, multiple interconnected stories show women reclaiming power from the men who have victimized them, with offenses ranging from workplace microaggressions to deeply upsetting instances of abuse/assault at both the individual and governmental level. At first this is all presented in a way that makes it incredibly satisfying, but then over time, many of these women use their newfound power to commit the same atrocities against men. Alderman even tells us from the beginning that this is where the story will go by opening with 1 Samuel 8, in which Israel asks for a king and is essentially warned that even a good person will abuse the power of a throne for their own benefit. It's a powerful example of a revenge story (or in this case multiple stories that form a revenge narrative) that never invalidates the reasons for seeking revenge but does warn against the corruption that stems from simply turning abusers' own tactics against them.
One of my absolutely favorite movies ever is sympathy for lady vengeance. It asks the question of what revenge is and what justice is and what the intersection of them is in a just utterly beautiful way, showing that forgivness is not always an answer, and portraying revenge as a downright purifying force, while still acknowledging the weight it has. When contrasted with the rest of the revenge trilogy it becomes even more pogniant, in my opinion, the first two movies condemning revenge as a concept, showing its corrupting influence both on the one who carries on the revenge and the one who receives it, then the third answering with an amendment on how revenge can become justice if executed with measure, and how it's sometimes the only way someone can move on. I highly recommend watching the revenge trilogy to anyone who wants to explore the concept in their own art. I think the three movies' different perspectives on the subject complement each other rather nicely, with lady vengeance bringing it all together on a wonderful, oddly optimistic conclusion.
So this is why I had a writers block. Thanks! Now I at least know why and what I need to do to continue. I am trying to write a revenge story, I want the MC to fail at its first attempt, but I don't know where to go from there. I only had a general sense of where I want the story to go, but not a good reason to do so.
Red dead redemption 2 had the best outlook of what revenge is and does and it was with one line Revenge is a fool game and that is what made look at these stories differently
@@stur3366 not neccesarily Sadie is the only one who ended up happy its because she wasn't a full blown outlaw but her entire plot point aas revenge and helping Arthur she also wanted to Avenge Arthur the difference between her and John is that she left the country most ikely
Ignoring the many critiques that I have of the movie, Monkey Man really was intensely satisfying, seeing revenge played out where personal revenge and justice aren't in conflict and where the revengee has to learn, but is still fundamentally concluded to be right by the text.
My favorite revenge moment is in Joe Abercrombie's 'Best Served Cold' We are told the best thing the main character's brother did in his life was cushion her fall when she was betrayed by her lieutenant and the Duke of Orso. At the end of the book when it is too late to take any other path it becomes apparent that her brother was planning a coup and the Duke's hand was forced.
The more and more I see of the world the more Irealize that all revenge ultimately comes down to fear, and a desire to reassert a sense of control. This is really clear in AtLA, because each of the kids have an arc about accepting fear and a lack of control. But really it's true about all revenge, real or fictional. No matter how angry you are, what you really want back is a of control and safety. Revenge is a confession of weakness, of vulnerability.
I'm not generally a fan of westerns, but one of my favourite revenge stories is the 2010 movie based on True Grit. It strikes a solid balance of showing revenge as something that can make a person (especially one for whom the law does not adequately function) feel restored or free, and as something that wears them down. Mattie grows as a person on her quest for vengeance, often for the better, but she's exposed to a lot of ugliness in the world that shouldn't have been hers to bear, and she suffers a lot for her revenge. I've been revisiting Star Wars (and especially The Clone Wars, which I LOVED while it was airing, and finished when they wrapped it up at season 5, but since then they made a couple more seasons!!! I'm a couple episodes into season 6, and I really hope we see Ahsoka again, and that Fives and Rex end up okay, since those three are some of my favourite characters in Star Wars) recently, and one subplot that's been jumping out at me that had never captivated me before is that of Boba Fett. I've only seen his story as shown in the prequels, The Clone Wars, and the original trilogy, but man. I find Boba Fett to be a really good example of consumptive (as opposed to restorative/healing) revenge. Jango Fett was a hard man teaching his son how to succeed in a hard kind of life, but it's obvious the two were incredibly close, and Boba Fett doesn't seem to have close relationships with anyone but his father (he's VERY conflicted in how he feels about other clones). So not only is seeing his father killed the way he was inherently very traumatic for Boba Fett, but in that moment he's basically lost the only person he had a strong emotional bond with. OF COURSE the kid wants revenge. But his desire for revenge drives him into worse and worse situations, until he's getting choked out by Aurra Sing and told to shoot innocents, and until he's wound up in prison and has lost everything. He loses so much in his quest for revenge, and I think he would've lost himself entirely if it wasn't for the semblance of a found family (maybe not a loving one, but at least a stable one) he creates with the Krayt's Claw, and particularly in his relationship to Bossk (who seems to have taken Boba Fett under his wing; he makes sure Boba Fett doesn't get beat up when they're in prison, and lets Boba stay on his ship, and the two kind of dip in and out of each other's lives all the way to Empire Strikes Back. Bossk also tries to murder Boba Fett and steal his shit every now and then, but he otherwise seems to genuinely care about Boba Fett's wellbeing and enjoy his company, so I wonder how much of that is selfish ruthlessness and how much is blue and orange morality. It's a little hard to tell). In Boba Fett's quest for revenge, and in his journey to become his own person (not his dad, not another clone, but himself), he becomes somewhat lost in the shadow and the memory of his father, which he doesn't seem to move out from until he's an adult. It's a fascinatingly tragic story, and one I wasn't expecting to be so interested in.
Ellie murder rampage is going to be more brutal in the HBO adaptation because it's going to be Lyanna Mormont on a murder rampage avenging Oberyn Martell head getting crushed. The funny thing is the show staring Bella Ramsey with the highest kill count is Hilda with a calculable kill count of 473 and a possible incalculable kill count of zillions. The possible incalculable kill count of zillions comes from the Time Worm erasing alternate timelines. The most painful moment in Hilda isn’t a death, it’s The Deerfox episode being an Appa’s Lost Days painful emotional gut punch & a Bye-Bye Butterfree painful emotional gut punch.
I want them to do something different with the show next season. Part 2 had some good elements (like exploring Seattle and the "rat King" boss), but because nobody wants Ellie to leave the farm to go after Abby the ending is very unfulfilling
Hello Future Me, don't you know I have school to do?! I can't resist this, forgot studying!! Haha, the On Writing series is too good!!! Note for weebs: Love the Sasuke revenge arch where he comes to realize his brother who he had been hunting down to kill had really loved and was doing what he could in such a messed up situation to protect him. A beautiful moment that always makes me cry and an interesting twist on a revenge arch where the person who had caused the hurt was really good and now this hatred that had been built up all these years needs to be released elsewhere or it will consume Sasuke. Also plays into the themes of war and the cycle of hate in that show. I know Naruto is seen as a mid-anime made for kids but the themes deeply resonate with me and I found the storytelling so compelling and meaningful.
These stories are important, because they expose the lie. The only path to healing is in forgiveness, but so many tragedies spin around a person's unwillingness and inability to forgive. Our morbid curiosity draws us to stories of pain, but perhaps the main reason these stories are so cathartic is because they give us a chance to see the whole picture, and choose the better option in our own lives. Our world is unjust, and more anger and hate cannot fix it. Turning the other cheek may seem like weakness, but meekness is the power to break the cycles of hate.
The problem with 'good zombie' shows is that you're right. They're NOT about zombies, because if they were, people would see how stupid the characters would have to be to let that problem get as out of hand as it does. It's why they NEVER show the Zombie Cataclysm, because the stories fall apart the moment they do. And a lot of the times, you don't even need zombies to get the same story. Not so with Revenge. Revenge is an emotional response, which makes it personal.
I think that this might have been the reason why movies started introducing fast zombies. Its a lot easier to believe that the situation could get so bad if humanity doesn't have as much time to react to it. Actually though, I can think of at least one instance in which the zombie cataclysm is shown, which is the novel of World War Z by Max Brooks. It shows it from the very beginnings of the outbreak, to attempts to keep it under control and out of public knowledge, which allows the situation to deteriorate with few attempts to keep it under control, to full on panic when people realise just how bad the situation actually is. I personally think it's an excellent read.
I think it would be interesting to start the story one or two generations after the Zombie Cataclysm, when there's been just enough time to forget what the world was like before and how exactly it fell.
@@richardwarnercool1 We have weapons, Zombies don't. It would never get that far out of hand. Ever. Especially in America, which has the most firearms per household. Nothing so far can outrun a bullet. And we have too much Zombie lore and know how to eliminate them now for them to be a threat. Not to mention that Zombies are all magic. There is no agent on earth that can stop body decomposition to actually have them be a threat in summer or winter weather. Especially not Canadian/Northern winters.
Vinland Saga has a good revenge plot, how the character's obsession with setting up the circumstances of the perfect revenge and how the pursuit of it ruins their life
![On Writing: Killing Characters! [ Harry Potter | Stephen King | Terabithia ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/treB4kuyMHk/mqdefault.jpg)
![On Writing: Killing Characters! [ Harry Potter | Stephen King | Terabithia ]](/img/tr.png)
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What's the best revenge moment in all of fiction!? Watch my exclusive video on writing intense emotions go.nebula.tv/hellofutureme + LFSC's video on incorporating your character's ghost into the story (looking at Star Wars: Fallen Order!)
~ Tim
Not specifically moments, but stories. One of my favorites isn't focused around the revenge of the protagonist, but the antagonist. Law Abiding Citizen, with Jamie Fox and Gerard Butler. Mostly because you can empathize so much with Butler's character, and the commentary about how broken/abusable the justice system is.
Honorable mentions would be Code Geass, which isn't wholly focused around revenge but has good elements of it in the course of grander corruption arcs. And Lucky Number Slevin, which plays it well as a twist angle.
Can't wait for On Writing & Worldbuilding 3!
I'm a huge fan of Digimon Tamers. When Takato force evolves Gelomon into a living doomsday to kill Bealvamon for killing Leomon, Jarys Digimon, is traumatically cathartic because of how much I saw myself in Takato. It did a lot to force me to confront how destructive my anger can be and to try and find healthier ways of expressing it then lashing out. It is all too easy to hurt those you care about when you rage. I do my best to stop when my anger swells and confront the consequences before I lose control.
Not the deepest, but Inigo Montoya defeating Count Rugen, that whole scene was just brilliant.
Can think of two, but aren't the main antagonists on their Revenge Arc.
Star Trek: Wrath of Khan, we see how Khan getting his revenge of Khan costs him everything, after he had everything he wanted. But more so how it shows a jaded view of how Kirk lives, comes in solves the issue of the week, cost him nothing major, and jets off, and that isn't what happens in this film, but allows us to look at Kirk through new light.
And Batman: Mask of the Phantasm, Andreas revenge is a reflection of Bruce's quest, on how it cost her every possible moment of happiness, where Bruce's quest for vengeance morphing into Justice has allowed him to not fall into the same trap.
Your videos are incredible😊😊😊😊❤❤❤❤
I think there is something really important in Katara's revenge arc, going through it allowed her to forgive Zuko. The man who killed her mother is not worthy of forgiveness and Katara isn't a person who can kill him but confronting that shows her how much Zuko is trying to change for the better, how he is worthy to be forgiven instead.
it also shows forgiveness is not like eating candy - you cant give it to everyone
@@shadowofchaos7675I cannot express how much I love this metaphor
@@sleeepingfiish13 Neither can I.
exactly!
@@shadowofchaos7675 I would like to express the caveat that you shouldn't simply decide by yourself that someone isn't worthy of forgiveness, look at what Katara had to go threw to come to that conclusion, how much she had to first understand the person who killed her mother. If she had simply decided by herself she wouldn't have been able to forgive Zuko, never would have understood that she wasn't able to kill him because it would take too much of herself to do so.
In the end the man wasn't worth it and time has found its own way of punish him.
For Jon Wick, it was never about killing the dog. It was what the dog represented. His wife was that one ray of sunshine in his dark and bloody life. So when she died, the dog was a way for him to have someone with hi, so he wouldn't be alone again. Killing the dog took away his final connection to his wife, and someone had to pay. Beautifully done.
(Spoilers for John Wick 4) Like the dog was always a joke but it was all about its connection with his wife at the end of it all. When he said he wants ‘Loving Husband’ on his gravestone, it really hit me that he was driven by his grief.
Yeah, yeah I think we all know that... but it doesn't change the fact that he starts killing what hundreds of people for a fucking dog... I mean, I am going to be honest some guys breaking into my home beating the shit out of me, stealing my car and killing my pet, yeah I would also be pissed and someone like John Wick has the means to get his revenge... but the focus on the dog was so extreme that it left you wonder why so much death...
@@jackwriter1908 you have to remember that this guy is assassin underground secret Society of assassins or violence and killing, is so common place that he is probably more than numb to it
I really don’t think John has the greatest coping skills, so him going berserk over a fucking dog, is kind of on point for the character they’re trying to portray
He has absolutely nothing left in his mind, and a peaceful life is pretty much dragged out from beneath him, because he has no ability to stop himself from lashing out and giving into his base desires
It always kills me the way that poor beagle dragged herself to John and then dies...
@@JA-lr5ix oh no I understand that he is a killer and for him killing a bunch of people who have nothing to do with it would be normal.
I mean in the second movie he is "forced" to kill a friend of his, because of some rules (which he later breaks anyways) and after that decides to kill all of his friends men as well... _I don't want to do this, I am sorry. But he said I have to kill you, to be free. And now I kill every last one of your men as well, free of charge._
The problem is that for the watchers he is starting to kill dozens of people for a fucking dog. No matter how little he could care about murdering people, for the audience it is still a little jump from: _You killed my dog._ to _Now I will kill every last one who has some connection to you._
Carrie for me is such a fantastic example of a revenge story because it’s almost less a revenge and more of a tragedy. Carrie’s revenge isn’t just a thing happening because she was bullied, but because her entire life both in her home life and school, she’s been abused, isolated, looked down upon, but this date at the prom was the one moment she felt she could be accepted. And on her way there, she’s cautious, she’s sure this is some trick and that any moment the rug is going to be pulled out from under her. But as the night goes on, she becomes more hopeful, she begins to let her guard down, and when she gets elected prom Queen, the book goes into so much detail explaining how happy Carrie is, how she’s finally going to be accepted by others and maybe those days of being isolated and shamed will finally be over. (The movie also shows this phenomenally, Carrie’s actor did amazing in that scene at really selling that emotion) Then suddenly, the pig blood spills on her, and it’s tragic, not only because of it ruining Carrie’s night, but because even though we know it was this jealous girl and her shitty boyfriend that did it, Carrie’s entire understanding of the night unravels as she wonders if EVERYONE was in on it and if this was another trick on her. Right when she thought she had a chance of hope, it’s violently shattered. And Carrie snaps.
Southern Raiders is one of my favourite episodes of TV ever and I really adore the journey Katara takes through it. Drives me up the wall when people say Zuko just wanted her to kill someone to suck up to her and she listened to Aang in the end. Zuko helped her find closure, whatever decision she made. Ultimately she chose her own path and I thought it was extremely meaningful.
Unpopular Opinion: I don't think The Southern Raiders is that great, mainly because of Zuko, the whole point of it was so Katara could forgive him, he helped her find closure but his intent was so she would forgive him, also isn't forgiveness kind of what he sought from The Gaang a few episodes ago, all of a sudden, he's on forgiveness is the same as doing nothing.
I just never liked that part and it holds the episode back for him, if he said that he was trying to rewrite his wrongs and that Katara needed this to gain closure, he doesn't need to say it out like this but you get the point, no question it'd be a Top 5 Episode but as it stands, it's still a great episode but not Top 5, don't @ me.
Sweeney Todd is one of my favorite revenge stories - the film doesn’t fully give you the same sense as the stage show. Great examination of how class and access turns Sweeney’s personal rage into out and out nihilism. The class angle is what makes it stand out to me.
The film is one of my favorite movies of all time tho
Beadle Bamford tells judge Turpin at court that the child must have done something to warrant a hanging.
Judge Turpin responds with "Who in this world has not."
I think Judge Turpin knows exactly what he's done without knowing how it's affected others. This is portrayed a little more in the actual stage production than it is in the film.
All this to say that killing Judge Turpin is not necessarily a bad thing, Sweeney is just doing it of his own accord since the legal system can't or won't do anything for him.
Favorite musical with an excellent display of character and motivations.
Everyone's out for themselves and "We all deserve to die." At least Sweeney was self aware.
Being a nerdy swedish kid, I read quite a few of the icelandic sagas. They are mostly about revenge. Because those icelandic early medieval farmers were a maffia society and the vendetta was their basic societal structure for sanctioning unwanted behavior. Doing your best to get vengeance for wrongs isn't a great dramatic resolution, or a tragic failure, it is as natural as laughing at a funny joke or crying over a dead family member. It's just what you do.
These stories are mostly tragedies though. Stories where the initial beef is trivial, feuds go on for generations and the main protagonists are both "the good guys" or what passes for it in late viking society. Their conflicts are understandable, their actions are justified (more or less) but the outcomes are often gigantic shit-showers. For the people who wrote these stories, the revenge arc wasn't fiction, it was a fundamental part of their society and culture, and they knew from personal experience exactly how dysfunctional it was.
Anyway, in your personal life, if you ever feel wronged and entitled to some vengeance, move on. Forgiveness isn't the panacea it's cracked up to be, it generally doesn't bring closure or makes you feel better. But it isn't quite as harmful as spending your time and emotional energy thinking on how you were wronged and on sadistic fantasies about what you're going to do to the bastards for it. Now, if chance should serve you up a good opportunity, by all means, throw a good old kick in the balls. That might indeed give you some satisfaction, or so I've heard. But don't tell yourself it's for justice or making the world a better place. And definitely don't spend your time stewing in your lust for it.
Forgiveness and not seeking revenge aren't the same thing, you dont have to forgive, but dont waste your time
Yeah the anime series Vinland Saga is based on one of those sagas and it's really good. Had never seen a revenge story like the one depicted there before
@@patrickripleyiii134 yeah, you can let go without forgiving. it just means you don't give it all that energy any more
@@patrickripleyiii134 Exactly!
Yeah, as an icelandic kid, I often noticed just how many of the sagas were about revenge, and as you stated, not just one killing or anything, these revenge killings went on for many generations. But society has changed, I haven't felt the urge to avenge anyone in my family, at least not yet
John Wick is not an ordinary man he is a retired assassin.
I don't think it's a corruption arc, It's the interruption of a untold redemption arc.
beautifully said. Its almost a sisiphian situation, we start the movie at the top, while the boulder is starting to fall off, and the pushing up was the backstory
I love this "the interruption of an untold redemption arc." There's so much a writer can do with this idea.
Oh my, that, that is perfectly said! It actually makes things so much more sad and tragic.
I totally agree. Won Jick is an ordinary man though!! XD
Kaz Brekker from Six of Crows, anyone?
I’m not usually for characters whose main goal is revenge, but Kaz was so well written. One reason I kept reading was to figure out why he wanted revenge so badly since you go for so long not knowing. And it just shows how much sacrifice and toiling his done for years to try to get to a place where he can find what he thinks will emotionally heal him (though it can be argued that he doesn’t even want emotionally healing since he’s so wrapped up in the darkness of what he’s been through and what he wants).
Anyway, great video, as always!
"brick by brick"
That was an amazing story, so much better than Shadow and Bone.
Something about the phrasing "Roy Mustang, who wants revenge for the death of his coworker" is sending me. You're absolutely correct but it's also just the funniest way you could have summarized it
I can't tell you how hard I roll my eyes when the "I can't do that or I'm just like the bad guy!" part shows up.
"i will love for you to support human creators" that is indeed a quote
In Full Metal Alchemist-Brotherhood, the best part about the multiple revenge arcs and stories is that they are all different and is a master class in how not to do the normal revenge arc:
*Spoilers*
-Whinry . Never knew she wanted revenge and given the chance and every excuse and as much as she wanted it, she can’t do it. She freezes up and is then being comforted by Ed when he tells her she couldn’t because have was made for a different thing
- Scar. He has the strongest arc as he does do revenge killings but it doesn’t help. He wants to die more and more and even twice tells Whinry that she has the right to do him. But she can’t. He is told by his elders and then Whinry that it is evil. He runs into many people and learns that there is more then revenge. But ultimately learns he has to move past it. Make no mistake he still feels the need to revenge but let’s it go. And the irony is that he ultimately kills the person that was arguably the being most responsible for it but to save the world. All at a cost of accepting the unacceptable.
- Roy- hunts down his quarry and then is forced to see in no uncertain terms what his revenge will cost him. And even though he wants it, needs it like his next breath, he learns how big the cost is and how many will pay the price and he backs away.
But not one person does a false equivalence. Not one person really forgives and not a bit of forgetting happens. Revenge is complicated and tragic and the author makes it clear there is no balancing the scales.
Having just watched it it does feel a bit like there is some forgiveness. It preaches that the Ishvalan people have to in effect forgive and assist the rest of the country after the atrocities they experienced. The correct way to survive after your people have been genocided is to protect the people and change their perception by being a good person or a pristine example to them. You can not be angry, spiteful or unaccepting when you have to the best version of yourself constantly. This is where i think the anime also falls apart in its otherwise very thorough exploration of the minority experience after immense injustice.
@@olo4704 I think the he anime is very complicated and it is great to talk about it abit but I will point out characters ask and admit where they stand on this point. And it is pointedly said that that is no forgiveness for especially for wantons murder. While all the military is apologizing and work to try to make things better; scar and the isbalans never say they forgive. The elders say as much that you don’t have to forgive and they have to abide and rebuild .
I think the isbalans had a pov that was best stated by BSG2k - The war is over; we have to go and start having babies.
Roy certainly did not forgive and Hawkeye made it clear that Envy was only going to be on the road to hell no matter what. Even Whinry does not forgive what Scar did and doubles down that murder is wrong no matter what. The thing you see over and over is the persons that did the wrong apologizing and trying to make at least make amends.
@@olo4704 honestly that is Not what i saw in that arc. I didnt See forgiveness on the Side of the ishbalans. i saw an attempt to move on and work with the amestrians. But Not Out of forgiveness but Out of sheer necessity. Because scar carrying Out His Revenge doesnt save His people, it only makes them more vulnerable. Not working with the amestrians Just isnt an Option, because ishbalans are a minority, and they do Not have the means, the Power, the Money or the infrastructure to rebuild their Nation without amestris letting them do it. I didnt even See the need to be a pristine minority. The Last scenes Show scar in traditional Outfit teaching His own people. He has to Work with the Military to do that, but moving on from Revenge and forgiveness are Not the same Thing. Noone forgives. They do what they have to to have a Chance.
Which is Frustrating but also one of the realest Explorations of what IT means to be in that Position. It is Not a fairytale of taking back your country after it and it's culture have been destroyed. Its about trying to rebuild, but the Framework has changed. Maybe one day ishbal will regain its Independence, but at the end of the Show, 8 years after the war of exterminatipn, that is Not a feasible Option.
A great thing to keep in mind with revenge plots (can't remember where I heard it from) is that revenge is rarely ever what a person or character actually wants but what they do want feels impossible to get now so revenge is the second best option to them. If they are seeking revenge for the murder of their family then they might have just wanted more time with their loves ones. If they are seeking revenge for a way they have been hurt personally maybe they just want the other person to understand the pain they caused them. So if these things seem impossible (the family isn't coming back or the target of revenge seems incapable of remorse/consequences).... what would that revenge seeker do if they are proven wrong and the thing they thought they couldn't have they actually can.... or even just being confronted by other characters with making them acknowledge what it is they actually want instead of that revenge.
This made me think of the movie, Bullet Train. It's all about revenge (though it's not initially framed that way) and though it's basically an action comedy that keeps you laughing throughout, it has a lot to say about how the pursuit of revenge twists the lives of even those who are only peripherally connected to the inciting event(s).
Aang is probably supportive about Katara not taken revenge on the guy that killed her mother because he would have killed those sand benders if Katara didn't stop him.
26:56 government failing to bring justice is sadly a classic that happens too many times
I'm trying to write a fantasy character whose whole whole deal is sorta like that. His mother was a murderer, and she was executed for that when he was about ten. He actually agrees with that; he knows she was a monster and that he probably wouldn't have survived to adulthood if he was left with her. No, what he has an issue with is that the state only did the easy part. They dealt with the murderer, but she wasn't the only one who was punished. A monster she might have been, but she was still all a young child who was completely left on his own after her death had. He had to effectively raise himself in the underworld because of the justice system's actions. And so far as he's concerned, that's not justice. Not at all. He absolutely hates most of the more civilized world, feeling that they're a bunch of hypocrites, caring about justice for - venegeance against - the wrongdoers, which is great, but never caring at all about protecting the innocent. They're happy to deal with the adult murderers, but they're not willing to worry about their children. They care about attacking the people who victimize prostitutes, but they do nothing to protect the women themselves. Kasim, as one of the victims of that exact mentality, starts out trying to fill that one role that everyone else refuses to.
@@ceinwenchandler4716 Very interesting take
@@kingofhearts3185 It's the result of another weird (I hope) setup within the same story. I was playing with the Chosen One trope, and what I ended up with was your typical prophecy about the chosen hero slaying the monster or saving the world or whatever, I haven't decided that part yet, and part of the prophecy is that the chosen hero will come to the city this character - Kasim - lives in and destroy it.
The leadership of this city are understandably perturbed by this. They end up turning to Kasim - that character I was talking about in the previous comment - and saying, essentially, "It's fate for this to happen. You're a criminal. You're an expert on breaking the rules and getting away with it. Well, now we need you to scam fate. Call it community service." Kasim is our main character, not the chosen one. His job is to stop the chosen one. I wanted there to be some detailed conflict between him and the city leadership, and I wanted him to have some reasonable motive. The previous rant about him believing that justice, as practiced by the state, tends to deal with the symptom rather than the actual problem, was what I came up with. From there I turned him into exhibit A of his own ideology. Even he agrees that his mother is better off dead, but he still thinks the city is evil for leaving her children to the mercies of the underworld.
Man, I've missed these kind of videos. While I do enjoy the other content, these writing videos are always amazing.
Gus Fring, in Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul, has one of the greatest examples of fictional characters revenge character arcs and storylines in any medium of fiction.
When you mentioned justice and revenge, it reminded me of a quote from a book that's stuck with me. I can't remember it word for word, but it was something to the effect of "Justice and revenge are not the same thing. Though sometimes they can have the same outcome".
'Okay, I'll do the bed last.'
Man, that's amazing writing right there. I'm tearing up at that line and I don't know if I would have understood it the same way a dacade or two ago.
There's so many small things in those memories, so much love. I never lost a child, but I've lost people. And... doing the bed last? I've been there. Of course it's not always a bed. Sometimes it's a box of favourite chocolates where only one or two have ever been eaten in a futile attept to cherish it for longer. Sometimes it's banged up shoes with holes and rips that should have been thrown out years ago and you even remember mocking, so they would maybe go into the trash... These physical imprints can break your heart.
You have perfectly caught the fleeting little things that make it so damn hard to make the bed, so god damn final.
Truly amazing work!
Can we have On Writing videos on Comedy and Romance?
Comedy is hard to writer, so if we could get tips on how to include jokes alongside action or dramatic moments, that'll be great.
And Romance arcs are very common but not always done well. Some of my favourite stories are Avatar and Harry Potter, but Romance isn't exactly their greatest strength, to the point where people prefer making their own pairings with the characters. Contrast this with Percy Jackson, in which the canonical romance of the main character is the most popular, something I don't see in most other fandoms.
That would be awesome! Comedy is so hard to write 😅
22:56 I Saw the Devil is another great example of this. The film is essentially about a serial killer who kills the pregnant fiancé of a NIS agent (basically S. Korean CIA). He’s able to track down the serial killer, but rather than turn the information he found over to the authorities or even just kill the guy, he starts stalking and randomly attacking and torching him but leaving the serial killer alive so he can torcher him all over again. It's a very good but very dark look at how the drive for revenge can destroy someone.
like all your videos, this is great advice not just for revenge. those intense emotions will be useful for so many different situations. Thanks for another great video ... they are so rewatchable too. Thanks heaps you've taught me a lot.
I feel like revenge stories that focus on letting go of the revenge or getting it then feeling empty/disappointed afterwards do have their merit, but they kinda started being everywhere and people got sick of them. In the instances where revenge is satisfying, which feel increasingly rare, they get pretty enthusiastic responses. I think it's why he count of monte Cristo and inigo's revenge in the princess bride kinda stick with us. Sometimes it feels good and justified. Letting go of the grievance done to you is not the only option, nor is it always the correct option.
Something you said in the video made me think of a recent epiphany I had. I was trying to think of ways to make my characters more active, and every action I thought of was rather cliche. So I started thinking about the most interesting characters I've ever read and how they acted. The answer is that their actions, even the small ones, were unique. And the objects they attached importance to were also unique. A man who lost his parents as a child and still mourns them is not unique in fiction. A man who obsessively carves their faces into every hard surface so he won't forget what they look like? That's somewhat interesting. The more specific the action is to a particular character, the more interesting that character.
ayyo this is a very helpful piece of information that i just added to my revenge character notes lol thanks
My favorite revenge story off the top of my head is probably "Lady Snowblood". Yuki was literally born to take revenge so she doesn't even get a chance at a normal life, and I find it interesting how each of her targets has the kill made unsatisfying in some way.
One of the most important things I ever read (I wish I could remember where I read it!) was a character struggling to process their emotions “remembered…that anger is a secondary emotion.” We’re never angry just because something makes us angry, we’re angry in reaction to another emotion that came first; we’re angry because we’re hurting, we’re angry because we’re scared, etc.
(I found that much more helpful from both a writing & personal angle than something like “the emotion behind the emotion,” because when you feel something so strongly it often feels like that’s all you are-your grief, your fear, your anger-there’s no *room* for anything else. Being able to go, “Okay, but *why* am I angry? What about this triggered that reaction?” has really helped me grow as a person, a communicator, and as both a creator & consumer of stories.)
This is exactly what George Lucas was trying to express in his prequel films, but he never really got across. It's at the heart of the pseudo Buddhist philosophy of the Jedi. Anger is just a cover for another emotion: fear, or grief or powerlessness.
Nie Huisang's revenge in The Untamed combines so many of the most delicious elements here: it brings him peace to avenge his brother, he exposes a master manipulator who's Imposter Syndrome leads to at least 40-50 deaths, he gets the main couple back together by orchestrating the return from the dead of one of them, and he gets to go a little disproportionate on the man who forced his brother to maintain ties with his killer by destroying his ability to trust. No one's doing it like Nie Mingjue's didi
I'm glad you brought up Tyrion's corruption after killing Tywin in the books. One of the other things I like about aSoIaF is that the whole 'revenge is bad' theme isn't just conveyed through the morally wrong actions that the characters take, but also through it just not being worth the practical cost. In her speech to the sand snakes, Ellaria Sand points to how Oberyn killing the Mountain is ultimately meaningless to her, because it resulted in his death, and though she points out how hollow it is to continue to pursue vengeance when all the people directly responsible for the Martells' suffering are dead, her argument is less about whether it's morally right and more about how she doesn't want to lose her children.
I've been struggling with a book where one of my characters is dealing with this. This has helped me a lot, thank you.
Bro, the answers you provide in this vid are key to reconsidering my own story. Thank you, sir.
Perfect timing. I'm actually doing a revenge story currently. Always good to do research.
This video helped to get some clear thoughts about my NaNo-projects this year. Both of them deal with the topic of revenge, giving a revenge stroy to a major side character that gets heavily intertwined with the MCs storyline, bringing it all together. I think your video gave me some insight I can take with me and think about to better bring the first draft to an end - as for one of those stories I didn't even know where it should end *lol*
Merphy's narrations are always just sooo ✨️✨️✨️✨️✨️
It is proper weird imagining Keanu Reeves as a full on vengeful killing machine. Especially when he is the kindest, softest, sweetest person, morally righteous you'll ever meet. He is a good guy in real life. But John Wick is one scary guy.
Acting!
@@Duiker36 I know what acting is. It's just that most actors play exaggerated versions of themselves.
@@The482075 You know, I was joking before, but you have convinced me that you do not know what acting is.
@@Duiker36 I know what acting is. It is inhabiting a different role. Playing a character other than yourself.
I was saying that so many actors don't do this. They play exaggerated versions of themselves. Take Dwane "The Rock" Johnson for example. He plays himself. A good example of an actor would be someone like Daniel Day-Lewis. He plays different roles. When I see a performance by him, I don't think "Hey that's Daniel Day-Lewis".
Keanu Reeves is doing proper acting as John Wick, as he is playing a character as opposed to just playing himself.
@@The482075 I've heard John Wick is Keanu's way to portray grief, each movie being a different stage of it. He's lost people he loved too.
One of my favorite revenge stories is from Octopath Traveler. Primrose's entire storyline is about getting revenge for the murder of her father, but a major part of the storyline is what she's willing to endure to get that revenge and the question of whether there will be anything left of her when she's done. You can see and feel the emotional impact of what she'd facing while hunting her father's killers, but also the turmoil underneath as she gets closer and closer to ending the chase.
Holy catfish, I never thought I’d see the day Octopath got appreciation in Tim’s comments. Today’s a red-letter day.
This was probably one of the most helpful videos I've ever watched for characterizing and developing the characters of my book, and the ironic thing is that it's because I've decided the main character actually doesn't want revenge, at least personally, he's been pretty sheltered all things considered and is only acting as an undercover assassin essentially because the people he loves have had it that rough and want revenge, but that really shows that he chameleons to what others want instead of his own wants and feelings,, which is mirrored in that his powers are to copy other powers, so he's essentially a knockoff of anyone else's powers, and a knockoff of the rest of the rebellions motivation,,, paired with the fact that the person he's tasked to kill is actually innocent and not the one who has caused all the strife,, he finally breaks out by refusing to enact the revenge, even if those he love want it, since he has that layer of removal since he was too young to really remember his parents or loved ones dying at the hands of the corrupt government like the others in the rebellion,, so he has the unique viewpoint where he can sympathize more with the future monarch who hasn't actually done anything wrong himself and see that if he killed the prince, it would just result in more radicalization and not actually fix the problem,,, and chaos ensues
For me, it’d be because the motives are a bit... eh?
Most of the time it seems bad for me is when the motive is petty, and makes said character with the motive seem... childish?
Which is fine if it’s a childish character learning to mature or something (or an actual teenager or child), but most of the time it’s characters who are portrayed as smart or similar, but end up doing/saying things that contradict that
(That being said, writing child characters, or characters who’re more intelligent than you, or similar would be an interesting topic, beyond me at least)
So you get a person who is portrayed as reasonable, but has the dumbest reason/goal for revenge
Something like if a character’s sibling dies or something, they decide to become a dark lord and inflict the same pain into the world
It’s a flaccid reason, which as they’re portrayed with reason/intelligence, should be able to figure out
That being said, if a villain/revenge character is meant to be boring/only have one motive for a good reason, it can work
The problem is when there’s no good reason and the character is meant to be interesting
(The best example I’ve seen is Sasuke from Naruto, he’s supposedto be portrayed as a complex character, but just comes off as dull to most people)
get you, exactly for that reason I hated revenge plots as a kid, it seemed just so stupid, by now I found a few select ones that where good for they where actually interesting!
The worst thing about Sasuke is the lack of in universe consequences and the real world consequence of this supposedly cool guy getting copy and pasted into endlessly many stories . . .
There are exactly 2 cases I am aware of, that managed to writhe that sasuke typ of character well and interesting.
Example Yuu Kanda from d gray man who apears have the exact same flaws, but then you learn despite him looking the oldest from the main 4, is actually the youngest and was a tube baby so he genuinly lacks the experience and maturity to make better informed decissions, he acts childish as hell? Well, he is a child and on top of that forced to act as a child soldier by the people who wronged him . . . even more importently though is, that he gets character development. Belivabe character development and proves beyond a doubt, that he wants to do better! He aknowlages the errors of his pasts and is willing to sacrifice everything to make it up without having a sudden 180 degree turn around. He still struggles, but he shows effort and gets results nd it does not stand opposed to who he was before, he was not beyond redemption, he was just a mess.
I was just reading Hamlet. It's fascinating how his obsession and hesitation build into this downward spiral. The deaths are inevitable, and that makes his arc all the more tragic.
Hey @HelloFutureMe! My favorite revenge moment? Toss up between Inigo in The Princess Bride and The Legend Of Luke from the Redwall series! So happy that you're publishing a novel! I haven't checked out your writing guides yet, but plan to because I’m always reading them! Have some stuff on some online platforms, but also wrote a full-length story. It might be up your alley! Keep up the great work👍✍️📝
I know that revenge is often portrayed as a bad thing and with many unforeseen consequences (rightfully so), but there is something very cathartic about good old fashioned revenge. Odysseus getting revenge at the end of his journey by murdering everyone has something cathartic about it
yeah, cause mass murder is such a great thing . . . the only cases where I aprove of revenge is when there actually comes something good out of it, if it actually is about justice and does make things better for people!
Like "promising young woman" she uses karmic justice to get people to see where they where wrong and get them to want to improve, to be better and crime not to go unpunished! She does not go on a murder spree, he punishments are relative to the offense and she backs of the moment her victim gets the point! Most importendly though, she does not take her grief and anger out on innocent people!!! And still she does not get glorefied for it!!!
@@SingingSealRiana I probably could have worded that better, but revenge doesn’t always have to result in murder sprees. Odysseus was simply the first example I could think of where his revenge was not realy portrayed as a bad thing with unforeseeable consequences. I guess a different example of this would be Rocky 4, where Rocky fights for revenge and wins in the end, but doesn’t kill his opponent like he did to Apollo. He got his revenge but also forgave him
@@scarletcroc3821I never really interpreted the slaughter of the suitors as revenge. Though From the point of view of Telemachus it definitely is because he directly had to put up with them. But for Odysseus I interpreted as mostly business especially because it’s portrayed as divinely sanctioned. The suitors broke the laws of hospitality (which I get the sense were a big deal culturally) by ‘overstaying their welcome’ to put it mildly.
@@scarletcroc3821 to be fair, the suiters are framed as very very disrespectful and unlikable, while odysseus is through all hells and feels like deserving of sacrificing g them to final get his home and peace back. Both together make no one that upset about their demise but still, it is about to spread and escalate between the suiters families and odyssey until deus ex machina Athena tells all of them of and odyssey barely complied, so revenge corrupts is even there part of the narrative!
@@scarletcroc3821 sadly I am not familiar with that example, sounds like choosing getting justice over revenge?
I'm proud of you! I can't wait to buy your novel
Carrie I don't think ever had a sense of community with those around her. To me it is very much a story in the vein of 'the child not nurtured by the village will burnt it down to feel the warmth'.
Might be in the minority here, but I've always liked revenge stories where the character gets their revenge and instead of feeling empty o aimless afterward, they feel fulfilled then go on to live a happy or at least somewhat meaningful life life. Vengeance doesn't always need to be portrayed as a hollow path to self-destruction... as long as the character is smart about it and actually has some kind of goal beyond attaining it.
Couldnt agree more. Hell, my personal idea is to find out if you're not alone in seeking vengenance against this person. We need more stories of a group of revenge seekers, like Orient Express, The Boys and Big Fat Liar.
Agree they can be much more interesting especially if they come in the context of a different culture than your typical English written stories. Also really enjoy when the revenge actually grows out beyond just one act and becomes a mission to destroy or change the systems that enabled the initial catalyst for the revenge, The Boys is a great example
Yeah, like in The Escape Artist
Exactly! You see them so rarely too, it's frustrating...
One series I like in this regard is the anime "Moriarty the Patriot" - a lot of the people the main characters help get revenge do seem to find catharsis or at least some form of closure and as a result. Though it should be noted that the character William (who is the main mastermind behind these various revenge plots) isn't "fulfilled" so much as he resolved - he views his actions as neccesary, seems genuinely pleased that the people he's helped found some peace as a result, and thus doesn't regret his actions, but seems unable to view himself as "good" because of them all the same, and instead considers himself to be a neccesary evil. So while the show certainly frames revenge as cathartic for the people who were wronged, it also shows it as self-destructive for William.
I completely disagree to me seeking revenge is just the adult version of throwing a tantrum they can't cope with whatever bad thing happened to them so they freak out and break things.
I've got your first two books on writing, so I'm looking forward to the third one, and your original!
I've utilized the properly placed 'Glib' reaction and evolve it into an in person 'Ghosting'. I've always considered the erasure of acknowledgment exceptionally powerful, but difficult to navigate, with ancillary character support and properly developed mindset of the recipient character & reader is an art . . .
I think Beef on Netflix is one of those shows that actually sold to me the corruption of revenge and it making you as bad as each other
I was typing out a comment about Stieg Larsson's Millenium trilogy when you started talking about it and I agree so much about Lisbeth's revenge being cathartic for her. Every time in her life she tried to get justice, she was punished for it. Watching her succeed and eventually get vindicated was so tremendous after learning everything she went through for no fault of her own.
Your writing analysis videos like this give so much information. This is gold! But I'm often left thinking: yeah, I cannot do that. I cannot posibly craft or write a complex story like Tim describes 😅 I guess is trial and error from here. Still, I appreciate these videos so much! Thank you ❤ (When I have money I would love to buy your worldbuilding books)
One of the best revenge stories I've experienced is the K-Drama My Name which combines everything you mentioned with excellent action and very neo noir atmosphere. I barreled through it twice in the weekend it came out.
"Hello....my name is Inigo Montoya.....you killed my father.....Prepare To Die....."
Was really hoping to see Vinland sage season 2 be discussed here, I think it's an extremely unique revenge story.
Thank you for talking about revenge stories. I’ve been contemplating a revenge story but wasn’t quite sure what the elements around it were. This made it easier to get a better idea on how to go about it😊
I love your "On Writing" videos, they helped me a lot.
I've had an idea for a story for... something like a decade at least.
And I think your video just gave em the tools to turn that from an idea to something I can actually write. Might not be perfect, but it will be leagues better than what I could have done until now. I can actually picture the steps between the only two elements I had : the beginning and the ending. Hell, I can even picture how to detail better those two as well...
Thank you, Tim.
This type of content is my favorite that you put out. Just pure writing.
As GRRM says, "the only thing worth writing about is the human heart in conflict with itself." You put people in challenging situations - be that grief, horror, whatever - and see how they react.
We can't relate to a space monk fighting an evil emperor. We can relate to a young man trying to rescue his father, and to believing the best of people who don't believe it of themselves.
We can't relate to a man killing 73 men in a couple of days of violent bloodletting. We can relate to a man's grief of losing his wife, dog and car in short order. If we didn't see the inciting incident of John's grief, the movie would be nothing more than well coreographed violence porn. It would be a terrible movie.
Emotions are what we relate to. The best stories give us emotional characters and/or plots, and that's what gets us hooked.
For FMA with Roy Mustang: it's actually a great (and rare) example of the other characters acknowledging Envy needs to die but don't want Mustang to do it himself because of how much his rage is destroying him. Envy resultantly killing himself in despair at his failure is actually way more satisfying than if Mustang had just annihilated him.
In the Dishonored franchise, revenge is pretty much the only option, but the games make the player choose which kind of revenge to take. The more lethal revenge leads to a horrific fallout while the non-lethal revenge (which leads to dishonoring the target the same way the entire conspiracy dishonored the protagonist) leads to eventual peace and order.
Whoo Hoo! Volume 3 is coming! Looking forward to getting that one for my collection Tim! Excellent work!
28:12
My favorite example of this cliche is in one of the Transformers IDW comics. Ratchet (the old Autobot medic) and First Aid (his understudy) are discussing Pharma (basically Joker, as a Transformer medic), who has done a myriad of horrible things up to this point, and there's this exchange:
Ratchet: No. If we kill him, we're no better than him. If we kill him, he wins.
First Aid: Yeah, except we are better than him and he doesn't win. He doesn't anything. He's dead. That's the point.
I once heard this regarding Kill Bill and revenge stories: revenge is bad becouse is not about fixing an injustice or preventing furter crimes, is about a person who lost the sense of power or control over their life, reclaming that sense of control throught violence. In Kill Bill the Bride murders a mother almost besides her doughter becouse reclaming control was more important to her than the emotional well being of a child. And after making her an orphan she tells her that she will wait for her once she is old enough for her own revenge becouse the Bride knows she just wronged the girl in a similar way to how she was years before, but it doesn't matter, reclaming power is more important now that doing the right, moral thing. In John Wick, the story isn't really about vengence, becouse for all the shit the kid did to John, a phone call would have been enough to get justice. John didn't wanted justice, he wanted to mourn, and his anger, his impotence in front of the, aparently very long agony of his wife, broke him, and violence was the only way he knew how to express the trauma of his lost and the feeling of impotence. He couldn't save his wife, he couldn't save his dog, but he can kill a shit ton of people to feel like he is doing something, and there are a shit ton of gangsters who clearly deserve to die. Ultimately, revenge is evil, becouse is inherently an egotistical act, the reclamation of a lost sense of control throught violent means at the cost of that of the others, deserving or not. While justice on the other hand is a more complex act with multiple objectives, giving the victims a sense of security, preventing the repetition of the original crime and even looking if the original perpetrator can be rehabilitated or not. Justice is a complex comprehensive aproach, while revenge is an egotistical, narrow minded one. Of course, that doesn't mean that the two of them can't get mixed, which makes revenge stories so moraly interesting, where does the line between justice and revenge lies?
exactly this, revenge in the commen sense just spreads hurt, it harms you, those who care about you, whoever you target and a lot of people that had nothing to do with it! Characteristic for it is, that nothing good comes from it, no one is protected or saved and you do not get anything back, except maybe your sense of control.
Justice or "good" revenge are situations, where you can get something back or punish someone in a way, that helps people. Make the recipient see where they did wrong so they will want to do better, make sure someone can not target other people again those typ of things.
Taking away someones power to hurt others, give people closure. The thing about justice is, that it is proportional and that it does not harm innocent parties!
One of the few revenge stories I like is Promising young woman, for her main focus is on getting people to aknowlage what they did wrong. she gives them a chance to show they are aware, a chance to show regret and if that is not fruitful, she constructs a situation where they feel the consequences their actions had on someone else but in a safe way. She tricks them to feel a small portion of the suffering they caused so they would act differently if ever in a similar situation again and still, her revenge is framed as consuming her life.
And then there is leverage, where a team of illegal professions offer their services to desperet people who can not get justice, protection what ever by normal means, to then swindle steal and trick bad people to help their clients. They do genuine good and the punishment inacted is proportional to the offense
I recently started a D&D campaign with the goal of playing a character out for revenge, since I usually play Lawful Good characters.
The conclusion I came to is to not portray the desire for revenge as unjust. My character watched his entire family die brutally for reasons they didn't deserve. They deserve justice.
The problem is instead, what pursuing this revenge to its fullest would cost him. He's torn between wanting to alleviate his grief and anguish and give in to his anger and hatred, and honoring his family for who they were.
His family were bards, artists, performers. They loved life, song, family. To reflect this, the DM has basically given me a choice: leaning more into revenge would give my character features similar to a Paladin, to reflect his absolute dedication to his mission, while leaning more into honoring his family would let him access their abilities.
Its been a blast to explore the constant back and forth emotions he feels as he grapples with the intense guilt and grief
V for Vendetta is fantastic and I do my best to watch it every November 5th. I love Magneto's revenge in X-Men: First Class so much. He's killing Nazis which is always fun to see, and his revenge is incredibly damaging and self destructive (we literally see him almost drown in it) and Charles does his best to show Eric that he isn't just the monster he was made into; but Magneto ultimately decides revenge is what he wants and that deep down he is the villain.
3:22 - This is unrelated to anything really, but something that I find interesting here is how the POV character clearly views these lists or shortcomings as the _women's_ faults or lacking and things that the other women were for sure in any way responsible for and that were not completely outside of those other women's own control, but realistically-speaking that's not necessarily an accurate or true opinion/perception of those women or their situations at all. Also, I find the word "undisciplined" an extremely odd/unusual and almost incongruent choice of words to insert here, unless perhaps if it is being utilized more in a sense of being 'unprincipled' or something. (It all seems to combine and set a certain kinda stage really well, I think!) 😊 Just a few random thoughts that came to mind during the reading of that particular passage of text; but maybe that's just me!
I'm writing a screenplay and this take just inspired me so hard! thank you so much for your work!
I think one of my favorite revenge stories is 91 Days, a little-known anime that sees a man joining the mafia to take it down from within after they killed his family. It hits all the Shakespearian revenge tragedy beats in the best way as he throws everything away in the name of revenge the deeper in he gets.
Good stuff. I can’t wait until Vol 3.
Considering my current project, this is a very well timed release
Im writing 3 stories right now. One of them a revenge arch. Thank you. I will pick up volumes 2&3 of in writing
The final part of Larsons trilogy is genuinely the most satisfying end of a villain, I uave ever listened to.
Such a great video, per usual. Reminding me of lots of great media. I always enjoy your break downs and how you find things i overlooked on my watch and i get greater appreciation for it! Thank you.
Naomi Alderman's "The Power" does all of this beautifully at both a micro and macro level. Without spoiling details for anyone who's only watched the show, multiple interconnected stories show women reclaiming power from the men who have victimized them, with offenses ranging from workplace microaggressions to deeply upsetting instances of abuse/assault at both the individual and governmental level. At first this is all presented in a way that makes it incredibly satisfying, but then over time, many of these women use their newfound power to commit the same atrocities against men. Alderman even tells us from the beginning that this is where the story will go by opening with 1 Samuel 8, in which Israel asks for a king and is essentially warned that even a good person will abuse the power of a throne for their own benefit. It's a powerful example of a revenge story (or in this case multiple stories that form a revenge narrative) that never invalidates the reasons for seeking revenge but does warn against the corruption that stems from simply turning abusers' own tactics against them.
Well made, as always. The first short in my debut album is a revenge story!
The Northman is great for a revenge story, it really explores some of these points...it's hard to say why without massive spoilers though!
Did you know that The Northman was directly based off of the Norse saga that inspired Halmet?
"If you seek revenge you should dig two graves."
So happy for you (to hear about the book)!!
One of my absolutely favorite movies ever is sympathy for lady vengeance. It asks the question of what revenge is and what justice is and what the intersection of them is in a just utterly beautiful way, showing that forgivness is not always an answer, and portraying revenge as a downright purifying force, while still acknowledging the weight it has.
When contrasted with the rest of the revenge trilogy it becomes even more pogniant, in my opinion, the first two movies condemning revenge as a concept, showing its corrupting influence both on the one who carries on the revenge and the one who receives it, then the third answering with an amendment on how revenge can become justice if executed with measure, and how it's sometimes the only way someone can move on.
I highly recommend watching the revenge trilogy to anyone who wants to explore the concept in their own art. I think the three movies' different perspectives on the subject complement each other rather nicely, with lady vengeance bringing it all together on a wonderful, oddly optimistic conclusion.
26:17
It's pronounced "Steeg", not "Stye-g" for anyone wondering
So this is why I had a writers block. Thanks! Now I at least know why and what I need to do to continue.
I am trying to write a revenge story, I want the MC to fail at its first attempt, but I don't know where to go from there.
I only had a general sense of where I want the story to go, but not a good reason to do so.
Gotta say, pretty pumped about Writing and worldbuilding volume 3 🤩
Great video. I’ve always wondered why we all love revenge stories so much considering revenge is not morally okay.
I thought I was watching the wrong channel because it took so long for the Avatar scene.
Red dead redemption 2 had the best outlook of what revenge is and does and it was with one line Revenge is a fool game and that is what made look at these stories differently
Everyone that seeked revenge in the rdr series all ended up dying and losing everything.
@@stur3366 not neccesarily Sadie is the only one who ended up happy its because she wasn't a full blown outlaw but her entire plot point aas revenge and helping Arthur she also wanted to Avenge Arthur the difference between her and John is that she left the country most ikely
Ignoring the many critiques that I have of the movie, Monkey Man really was intensely satisfying, seeing revenge played out where personal revenge and justice aren't in conflict and where the revengee has to learn, but is still fundamentally concluded to be right by the text.
My favorite revenge moment is in Joe Abercrombie's 'Best Served Cold'
We are told the best thing the main character's brother did in his life was cushion her fall when she was betrayed by her lieutenant and the Duke of Orso.
At the end of the book when it is too late to take any other path it becomes apparent that her brother was planning a coup and the Duke's hand was forced.
I'm sorry, grabbing the lights just cracks me up every time!
The more and more I see of the world the more Irealize that all revenge ultimately comes down to fear, and a desire to reassert a sense of control. This is really clear in AtLA, because each of the kids have an arc about accepting fear and a lack of control. But really it's true about all revenge, real or fictional. No matter how angry you are, what you really want back is a of control and safety. Revenge is a confession of weakness, of vulnerability.
This was a really good video and very helpful with the revenge story I'm working on!
I'm not generally a fan of westerns, but one of my favourite revenge stories is the 2010 movie based on True Grit. It strikes a solid balance of showing revenge as something that can make a person (especially one for whom the law does not adequately function) feel restored or free, and as something that wears them down. Mattie grows as a person on her quest for vengeance, often for the better, but she's exposed to a lot of ugliness in the world that shouldn't have been hers to bear, and she suffers a lot for her revenge.
I've been revisiting Star Wars (and especially The Clone Wars, which I LOVED while it was airing, and finished when they wrapped it up at season 5, but since then they made a couple more seasons!!! I'm a couple episodes into season 6, and I really hope we see Ahsoka again, and that Fives and Rex end up okay, since those three are some of my favourite characters in Star Wars) recently, and one subplot that's been jumping out at me that had never captivated me before is that of Boba Fett. I've only seen his story as shown in the prequels, The Clone Wars, and the original trilogy, but man. I find Boba Fett to be a really good example of consumptive (as opposed to restorative/healing) revenge. Jango Fett was a hard man teaching his son how to succeed in a hard kind of life, but it's obvious the two were incredibly close, and Boba Fett doesn't seem to have close relationships with anyone but his father (he's VERY conflicted in how he feels about other clones). So not only is seeing his father killed the way he was inherently very traumatic for Boba Fett, but in that moment he's basically lost the only person he had a strong emotional bond with. OF COURSE the kid wants revenge. But his desire for revenge drives him into worse and worse situations, until he's getting choked out by Aurra Sing and told to shoot innocents, and until he's wound up in prison and has lost everything. He loses so much in his quest for revenge, and I think he would've lost himself entirely if it wasn't for the semblance of a found family (maybe not a loving one, but at least a stable one) he creates with the Krayt's Claw, and particularly in his relationship to Bossk (who seems to have taken Boba Fett under his wing; he makes sure Boba Fett doesn't get beat up when they're in prison, and lets Boba stay on his ship, and the two kind of dip in and out of each other's lives all the way to Empire Strikes Back. Bossk also tries to murder Boba Fett and steal his shit every now and then, but he otherwise seems to genuinely care about Boba Fett's wellbeing and enjoy his company, so I wonder how much of that is selfish ruthlessness and how much is blue and orange morality. It's a little hard to tell). In Boba Fett's quest for revenge, and in his journey to become his own person (not his dad, not another clone, but himself), he becomes somewhat lost in the shadow and the memory of his father, which he doesn't seem to move out from until he's an adult. It's a fascinatingly tragic story, and one I wasn't expecting to be so interested in.
All your lights died at the very end?? This is just the start of your revenge arc, against the power company!
Ellie murder rampage is going to be more brutal in the HBO adaptation because it's going to be Lyanna Mormont on a murder rampage avenging Oberyn Martell head getting crushed. The funny thing is the show staring Bella Ramsey with the highest kill count is Hilda with a calculable kill count of 473 and a possible incalculable kill count of zillions. The possible incalculable kill count of zillions comes from the Time Worm erasing alternate timelines. The most painful moment in Hilda isn’t a death, it’s The Deerfox episode being an Appa’s Lost Days painful emotional gut punch & a Bye-Bye Butterfree painful emotional gut punch.
I appreciate this comment 😂
I want them to do something different with the show next season. Part 2 had some good elements (like exploring Seattle and the "rat King" boss), but because nobody wants Ellie to leave the farm to go after Abby the ending is very unfulfilling
Hello Future Me, don't you know I have school to do?! I can't resist this, forgot studying!! Haha, the On Writing series is too good!!!
Note for weebs: Love the Sasuke revenge arch where he comes to realize his brother who he had been hunting down to kill had really loved and was doing what he could in such a messed up situation to protect him. A beautiful moment that always makes me cry and an interesting twist on a revenge arch where the person who had caused the hurt was really good and now this hatred that had been built up all these years needs to be released elsewhere or it will consume Sasuke. Also plays into the themes of war and the cycle of hate in that show. I know Naruto is seen as a mid-anime made for kids but the themes deeply resonate with me and I found the storytelling so compelling and meaningful.
I like revenge that doesn’t end in death but sometimes there is something else that strips the person on their identity, dignity or reputation
These stories are important, because they expose the lie. The only path to healing is in forgiveness, but so many tragedies spin around a person's unwillingness and inability to forgive. Our morbid curiosity draws us to stories of pain, but perhaps the main reason these stories are so cathartic is because they give us a chance to see the whole picture, and choose the better option in our own lives.
Our world is unjust, and more anger and hate cannot fix it. Turning the other cheek may seem like weakness, but meekness is the power to break the cycles of hate.
That rain sound effect at the end nearly put me to sleep, damn
The problem with 'good zombie' shows is that you're right. They're NOT about zombies, because if they were, people would see how stupid the characters would have to be to let that problem get as out of hand as it does. It's why they NEVER show the Zombie Cataclysm, because the stories fall apart the moment they do. And a lot of the times, you don't even need zombies to get the same story. Not so with Revenge. Revenge is an emotional response, which makes it personal.
Covid disproved humanity was smart enough.
@@Byakurenfan After Covid I'm more willing to believe the stupid choices horror movie characters make.
I think that this might have been the reason why movies started introducing fast zombies. Its a lot easier to believe that the situation could get so bad if humanity doesn't have as much time to react to it.
Actually though, I can think of at least one instance in which the zombie cataclysm is shown, which is the novel of World War Z by Max Brooks. It shows it from the very beginnings of the outbreak, to attempts to keep it under control and out of public knowledge, which allows the situation to deteriorate with few attempts to keep it under control, to full on panic when people realise just how bad the situation actually is. I personally think it's an excellent read.
I think it would be interesting to start the story one or two generations after the Zombie Cataclysm, when there's been just enough time to forget what the world was like before and how exactly it fell.
@@richardwarnercool1 We have weapons, Zombies don't. It would never get that far out of hand. Ever. Especially in America, which has the most firearms per household. Nothing so far can outrun a bullet. And we have too much Zombie lore and know how to eliminate them now for them to be a threat.
Not to mention that Zombies are all magic. There is no agent on earth that can stop body decomposition to actually have them be a threat in summer or winter weather. Especially not Canadian/Northern winters.
Great video, loved it as a whole. But reducing the death of Maes Hughes to "The death of Mustang's Co-Worker" is doing the man dirty.
Saying "the death of his best friend" would have given too much away for people that haven't seen it, I'm guessing.
Vinland Saga has a good revenge plot, how the character's obsession with setting up the circumstances of the perfect revenge and how the pursuit of it ruins their life