@@foggyforest2625 Eren is a weird one. I don't think he really fit as an antihero in the first 2 thirds, just a standard hero, but then after, let's just say I'd call him more a villain. ~ Tim
@@HelloFutureMe - Though I haven't finished AoT as of yet, I'm inclined to disagree. Even when Eren is objectively doing the right thing, even when his actions don't cause harm to anyone else and serves the greater good, at the core his actions are always motivated by his singular desire for vengeance. When he's not fighting, he's just waiting and preparing for the next battle, intent on destroying his enemy with extreme prejudice. Maybe his motivation isn't really challenged by the narrative at first, but it's always there, consuming his every waking and sleeping moment to the point that it's all he lives for, and he can't conceive of anything beyond it. At least that's my impression.
I swear the UA-cam algorithm hates good content sometimes, this is one of my favorites of yours! Serious question- does it help/show engagement if I just have the video on loop at all? I'll just leave it up if so, this vid does not deserve to die :(
I think I'd have to agree with Momo on "meow?" being the best antihero out there Also wow, Graham the wizard, who likes cats (or is it Graham, the wizard who likes cats...?) sure has gone through quite the emotional arc in recent times
Zuko doesn't just have mommy issues, he has daddy issues and sister issues, too. At certain points in the series, he even has uncle issues. Zuko doesn't just have mommy or daddy issues, he has 'whole dam family issues'.
He has the "growing up with psychological issues, in a family that has psychological issues, that doesn't acknowledge dealing with psychological issues" issues...
there's this tumblr post i love that says something along the lines of 'daddy issues make you a people pleaser, mommy issues make you a sociopath' and someone reblogged it with a picture of zuko and azula and i have never forgotten it.
The interesting thing about V, at least in the comic, is that he is a anarchist mirror to the fascist government. In fact, the chapter he is introduced is titled “The Villain” and that text is next to him in the panel. That is something the movie kind of missed on; V apologizes to Evey in the movie over what he did to her and claimed it was necessary, comic V never does. He’s a monster the state made him and knows he has no place in the world that people will create once he has torn down the system. I think the Wachowskis softening him a little wasn’t wrong, but felt like it wasn’t the point.
Interesting, did not know that. So kinda like the bounty hunter in firefly, in that show he even states there is no place in the world he seeks to create for monsters like him.
@@HelloFutureMe “V For Vendetta” the movie broadly follows the plot of the comic, but the Wachowskis changed much of the setting and particularly the politics. Alan Moore was interested in Anarchism versus Fascism in the context of Thatcher’s UK, the Wachowskis were interested in Bush era War on Terror politics and how freedom can be surrendered for security. Also, the comic has much grubbier a world and has more characters suffering in it. That explores the theme. But for V himself, it his hard to argue that Evey was anything other than his instrument to get revenge on the people who destroyed him and to be his replacement for when it becomes time to build a new society. The Wachowskis’ V is much more human in my view for lack of a better word.
Anti heroes with inner demons need humanizing moments. Without those demons interfering with the plot, they turn into Mary Sues, but if they don't have those moments that turn them from tropes to people, they're literally just a lump of angst.
As OSP rightly put a while back, antiheroes are pretty difficult to get right without having them go either full hero or full villain. But hey, I guess that just makes them a good writing challenge 😊
I try never to think of my characters as Hero , Anti-hero, or a Villain, because it's very easy to start writing about "Tropes rather than people" as you so eloquently put it. Though, if I had to pick a favorite anti-hero, it would probably be Butcher from the Boys. (the Show.)
@@Aranoura In full honesty, I probably would have chosen another name if I had taken more time to think it out. This one doesn't really feel like it represents my personality very well. Glad you like it though.
He goes from sympathetic villain to antihero, his whole job narratively for a long time is making Arya a worse person and showing her that her world isn't for heroes.
One anti-hero that I've loved recently is Luthen from Andor. His speech in episode 10 really sets his character. He knows that he uses immoral, sometimes even 'bad' methods to fight the Empire. Luthen is fully aware of who and what he, willing to give up his personal peace and comfort so that the rest of the galaxy can get theirs.
@@TheSuperRatt *Rolls eyes* Just read the lore. The SW Galaxy is a shitty place, and things were better off for 99% of the galaxy under the empire, compared to the periods before and after.
@@GoldenSunAlex yes, things went great once they instituted slavery. military spending continued to skyrocket after war ended, and firing squads were sent to every protest
@@GoldenSunAlex Palpatine orchestrated both sides of a war so that the senate would give him emergency powers, which he continued to abuse until he had accumulated enough military power to declare himself emperor. This does not sound legitimate to me.
A comment to get lost in the sea: Merlin (BBC) may not have the best writing, BUT DEAR IF IT DOESN'T GO HARD ON THE THEMES. And when you talked about hero-to-anti-hero/villain & the tragedy involved in it, it just made me remember it. Morgana is an anti-hero who goes full villain and Merlin is a hero with the moral of an anti-hero. And if you watched the show, you would know what I am talking about! (I just had to say it. Is so much fun to read-too-much into this show, because it lets you. Is a family show, but it lets you, since is also a tragedy.)
Yeah I always liked how Morgana's fall arc is just so inevitable too. You can morally follow her every step of the way and come to the conclusion you might do the same. Very compelling character.
It kills me watching the show knowing that nearly everything in the final season could be fixed if Merlin could bring himself to be nice to a desperately lonely kid who just wants some positive reinforcement
@@Ouvii She was done for me when she genuinly believed to have claim to the throne on the basis of her heritage while denying Uther as her father at the same time. It was so ridiculous.
Personally, I'd say Kratos is unironically a damn good anti-hero. This is especially present in the two most recent games, where in the former, he's cold to his son and to others, but gives life lessons to his sons. As compared, in the latter game, he becomes someone worth praise.
I never read Artemis Fowl and I have a question about it:Why is he named Artemis? I mean I am from India and there's a lot of men named after goddesses here but they usually have suffixes like 'servant' or 'foot' to make the name masculine but Artemis doesn't seem to have any like this. So... I am just a curious guy who wants to know why is such.
@@CaptainvonDore Well, yes, normally it's the same in western languages, and a lot of traditional names do have different suffixes based on gender, but Greek deities have never really been popular namesakes in western Europe or the English-speaking world, and since ancient Greek is also not a widely spoken language I suspect it's probably unlikely that those gendered naming conventions would've popped up (or stuck around) in relation to those particular names. More notably though, there is actually a somewhat corny bit in the third book where the villain makes fun of Artemis by saying "isn't that a girl's name?" and then at the end when Artemis inevitably outsmarts him he explains that yes, it is the name of a female goddess, but she's also the goddess of the hunt and Artemis does think of himself as a sort of hunter (he genuinely says "I hunted you" to the guy, which is perhaps a bit over the top but it seemed cool to me when I was like 13).
Worm plays this very well especially because you are in the antihero's head the whole story and while she acknowledges she isn't the best, she's really, really good about not thinking about it. One of the most striking moments being one of the "interlude" chapters from someone else's perspective and it's clear just how terrifying she is. It's abundantly clear if you stop and think about what any of the fights would actually look like but because the main character is so at ease with it, it doesn't really hit you until you see it through someone else.
Worm is one of the best depictions of an anti-hero I have ever read. She does so much bad, and even evil stuff, but she is genuinely convinced that doing so is for the best and thinks she is making the best choice she can. It's a very compelling narrative.
20:23 "Characters don't have to be likeable, they just need to be interesting". Thank you. I write mostly Villain Protagonist stories, this is what I like and am satisfied with writing about. Sometimes they more on the grey side, sometimes they in the black and white universe, sometimes they pure 80', or just Chaos Champion in Warhammer 40k or Age of Sigmar. But I really try to make them interesting and matching the universe/theme I try to go with, whitout going to the side of anti-hero or "hero, but the badge is wrong" or "anti-hero at worst but everyone else is a psycho". They are villains, main character villains, they are not symphathethic nor likable, they will have humanising characteristics and I try and work really hard to make them interesting, have something that reader would go "Ok, I wonder what happens next?". Because I love fictional villains, wheter it's Cobra Commander, G1 Megatron, Skeletor, Hannibal Lecter, Lucius the Eternal, Doctor Doom, clan Tzimisce or comic book Thanos.
I'm also attempting to write a villain protagonist, but in such a way that the reader doesn't quite realize that the protagonist was a villain all along. Epistolary first person is my attempt to disguise it, since then the reader isn't just limited to the protagonist's thoughts but to what they write, but it's definitely a negative arc and definitely one that is going to cause a lot of chaos as people fight about whether the protagonist is an antihero who does what they think is right or a full blown villain on a mission.
How dare you make Roy Mustang out to be good to only Hawkeye!?! He's the absolute best!!! And he's more than good to just Hawkeye. His care for his friends and subordinates is incredible. He is so caring... just has the wrong career path - so he's trying to fix it. Colonel Mustang deserves so much more respect than people give him 😭
Don't know man... I feel like Mustang is kinda overrated; Now don't get me wrong, he is a great Character, but I would had been much more satisfied if I had seen him resent what he has done in Ishval, like Hawkeye and especially, Major Armstrong... But, we never got that. Honestly, I can't say a single thing Scar did wrong (except Killing Winry's parents, but he was sought of out of his mind from PTSD) but he is treated much worse than Mustang.
@@yuvrajganguly what are you talking about?! He totally resents it. It's a recurring theme for him. He absolutely hates what he did during the war. But he has a plan to fix it, which, while flawed, is better than wallowing in self-pity. But you are correct. Scar gets unnecessary amounts of hate.
@@Nariasan I just wished to see that more in the forefront; like when I think about Major Armstrong, I remember that he withdrew from the line as he so much hated harming civilians, but for Roy, it kinda gets overshadowed by his ambitions, personality and scenes like the rage moment.... And hardly any Mustang fans mentions the atrocities he has committed
@@yuvrajganguly I'm a Mustang fan and I mention it all the time. It's actually why I'm a fan of his, because I feel Arakawa-sensei did a fantastic job with his character. Also, the amount of Royai fanfics that focus on it are numerous, too. You're mistaking Armstrong's discharge for PTSD as him withdrawing from the fight. He didn't withdraw at all - no consciously anyway. He was, by all accounts, dishonorably demoted for his inaction due to PTSD.
@@yuvrajgangulyUmm- scar tried to kill two teenage boys. The Elric brothers were like ten when his family was killed. They were completely innocent and he just decided to kill them multiple times.
I think one of the consistent traits that I've seen in successful anti-heroes is that they are very competent. I'd be interested if there are any examples where that is not true.
Yeah they have to be in order to counter how they might be reluctant, or a barely functioning addict, or just trying really hard to make up for a mistake they made.
Favorite Anti-hero: Guts from Berserk phenomenal story, with Guts' arc bringing it all together. He goes from not knowing anything but violence to finding friends, a goal, and a reason to keep struggling
I adore the Artemis Fowl plug--especially since someone made a movie whose protagonist had a very similar name, but claim they didn't see why a kid's story should be about an anti-hero. That said, Artemis is also a perfect example of an anti-hero with foils. Holly the cop from the morality view, but also Butler as the more experienced anti-hero just doing his job. Such a good series!
Have you seen Hadestown? It is one of the best examples of an idiot plot/tragic hero I've ever seen. It's incredibly well written and the music is phenomenal!
Okay, this is weird, I was listening to the album just earlier today. I agree, absolutely phenomenal. (Also there was a comment from someone who had previously thought that Hades' line "I conduct the electric city!" was "I can dance the electric shimmy!" which is hilarious.)
Really like the term "gritty fatigue." It's why I stopped watching Walking Dead pretty early and could barely finish the first season of True Detective.
There are a vast multitude of antiheroes to chose from, but I'm going to tentatively say my favourite is Homura Akemi from Madoka Magica. And actually, Kyoko Sakura from the same series too, notable given the different trajectories their arcs end up on.
I think one of my favorite things is we basically have his character arc being starting as an anti-villain who overtime shifts over to anti-hero. Artemis was never going to be a Steve Rogers type of hero, but the amount of growth he goes through over the series is amazing and it's wonderful how he helps expand the worldview of his eventual friends as they expand his.
I don't know if it count at all, but one of my personal way to distinguish a Hero from an Anti-Hero is the way they handle their Inner Demons, a Hero wants to face them (and if the Inner Demons win, then the Hero becomes Tragic One), Anti-Hero, instead, learns how to live with them.
I always find it weird when people talk the ending to the last of us and frame it as unexpected, jarring or morally grey. When the game came out people all over the web were declaring they couldn't believe what happened, and what Joel did. But then when I actually learned what happened I remember thinking, how could anyone imagine this story wrapping up in any other way?! Of course Joel was going to save Ellie. What would have been crazy is if didn't. If you spent all that time building that relationship and the he just let her die. I didn't understand why were people freaking out about this. It's also weird that people would consider saving her, wrong in anyway. Stopping the brutal murder of an innocent child? How abhorrent! Sure they are doing it to TRY and cure the cordyceps, but they explain not only is this not guaranteed, but it's not even the first time they have done this, and are still no closer to figuring it out than before. More likely than not Ellies death would be totally meaningless. If anything, in this situation, Joel is the Hero and the Fireflies are the anti-heroes who are doing the wrong thing for the right reason. It's been a while since I have seen the ending, but I don't even think Joel has to kill that many people or any at all. It is the players actions that determine how much of a bloodbath the scene becomes. Maybe not, but either way, I never saw this as a morally grey choice or a shocking outcome am always confused when it is described as such.
The last of us and the pair of anti-heros in Joel and Ellie are such difficult and wonderful characters. The adaption that is on at the moment is giving us some really good takes on the story and characters as well. Love your work mate.
@@TooSweet353 You'd be surprised. Of the people I personally know, more of them dislike the show than like it (though it's mostly due to personal preferences rather than any perceived flaws in the storytelling) Even though I love the show and acknowledge that it's a masterpiece. I still think it's sometimes suffocatingly American in its storytelling, it's so dry, bleak and (mostly) unempathetic, much like its setting (it really doesn't make me wanna visit Albuquerque). There is this bleakness in its atmosphere that makes it hard to get through. And while brilliantly filmed end effective, it doesn't FEEL good to watch in the same way something like Dune does.
A version of a character archetype I enjoy, that I feel is often put under the umbrella of antihero, is characters that do good or bad completely dependent on how they feel in the moment, though still don't end up villians. Probably the biggest example being Deadpool, but some versions of Harley Quinn would also be an example.
I honestly take Deadpool as the quintessential anti-hero because he is clearly able to walk the line of villainous acts but he's always better than the villains he fights. The reason I hold him as the one to strive for is he's not edgy about it. He has very good reasons to do what he does but he does so with an honest personality.
Congrats on One million subscribers, watched loads of your videos and love you so much even though I'm aussie. truly one of the greats Your aussie mate
Biggest problem with mainstream media and their characters is writing characters like checking off boxes, not actually writing someone who could very well be a real human being. Its like with villains… write a tragic backstory, make them irredeemable, bam. As opposed to writing a human being it’s a character who has to check boxes to be considered “good” to people.
Captain America /does/ believe that the ends justify the means in Civil War. That's sort of Tony's whole argument, that the ends don't justify the means because of the unnecessary loss of life, while Cap doesn't want government oversight because he learned in the previous movie not to to trust the government and so he justifies the unnecessary death in order to avoid what he deems the greater evil
I have this character in one of my stories, who I feel like comes under this category BUT his is a more special case of being groomed by an evil man since childhood to do these bad things, and his arc is about him realizing this abuse, coming to terms with it and overcoming it and therefore finding out who he is BEHIND that 'bad person' the evil man made him become
Another good example of a flat antihero is Lelouch from Code Geass; his willingness to do whatever it takes is consistent throughout the story, he sacrificed everyone in some shape or form to free the world from Brittania, even himself.
Yes. I kept thinking of Lelouch listening to this. His end goal is quite noble - wanting to create a peaceful world for his sister - but he manipulates others and uses morally questionable actions to achieve that goal. Plus there are many aspects to his character. He does have his softer moments - mainly when he's interacting with Nunnally - & even some funnier moments which primarily happen when he's keeping up his schoolboy persona (the cat chase around the school is a big example).
Your "why are cities where they are" video gave me the kick to finally try out this worldbuilding thing a while back. I probably won't ever actually write the book, but you totally just made me realize the main character is an antihero...
I feel like the negative arc could apply to Solo Wing Pixy from Ace Combat Zero. He starts as your sole wingman and ends with you killing him in a dogfight to stop him from launching nukes for the goal of destroying countries and their borders for a terrorist organisation he joined during his midgame disappearance.
I'll say as somebody who loved the series as a kid, and recently started a reread as a 30 sometime adult; I definitely think it's worth a try at least. For as much as the author is just using real world mythology and legends he matches to build a really cool world with the mix of magic technology you have, and just all the little details that make it more three-dimensional then it could have been. And before that you have a really fun cast that we get to see so much from. The plot of the first one is Artemis fowl kidnaps a fairy to try to save his family's fortune, and we basically have a dual protagonist for that book with Artemis himself and his kidnapped victim. Holly herself is a great character, the first female captain in LEPrecon with a big chip on her shoulder thanks to that. It in part makes me think somebody saw Die Hard and went why can't we have a story with both central characters as protagonist, because yeah there's a lot of John McClane energy to Holly.
OSP talk a lot about smoking/drinking as an antiheroic trait, and how it's become counter to what we think of traditionally heroic; where as in the 50's and 60's it was normal so it wasn't an antiheroic quality.
I’m so proud of you that you made it to 1 million! 🎉🎉🎉 congratulations. It’s been such an amazing journey since the how to train your dragon days and I’m glad I’ve been along for the ride. 😊
A favourite anti-hero is Amos Burton from the Expanse (books and show). He's no-nonsense in a very blunt way. His backstory (no details because spoilers) means he grew up in a world where death and violence were just facts of life. He once says "I haven't felt fear since I was 6 years old" and the reaction to that unsettles him. He actively seeks out good people, because he knows he isn't capable of making good choices. In book 5 he has a moment where he acts on his instincts, and is questioned on it by someone he's met. His reflection is that he has lost his moral compass, and so needs to get himself back to his crew. Because they guide him. He's not a thug, he doesn't flex and he doesn't even really do threats. If he says "Do X or I'll Y" it's not him trying to intimidate someone, its cause and effect. Do this and we have no problem. If we have problem I deal with you. That's how his world has always worked. He lacks that wider value system. Except when it comes to kids. He'll look after kids. You don't fuck about with kids when Amos is around. And if he considers you his people, he's yours. In book 3 there's a woman who shows him kindness and thanks him for looking after her. He just looks at her and says "Nothing's going to happen to you." It's not a reassurance, it's a fact. He has decided that he will not let anything happen to this kind woman. She can be scared if she wants, she can be calm, that's helpful. But either way, he's not letting anything happen. He's just such a fantastic character.
This just what I needed to help write my anti hero in my book! I've been struggling to make him... not cringe, but this helps me understand things I should try to make him less cringe.
And frankly, this is the literal director mission statement of The Last Of Us. The whole point of the series, the theme that supercedes all, is exploring how LOVE (something we would think of as being unambiguously good) is actually more complicated. Not just white, but black and all shades of grey in between. Love is responsible for the best things that happen in our world, but also responsible for some of the worst things that happen in our world, especially interpersonally. Love can push you to do great and terrible things. This is why Joel and Ellie are some of the best anti-heroes you can find in media, their arcs are defined, dynamic, but it doesn’t lead to them becoming the perfect little person, or arguably even particularly good ones, at least not healthy ones, yet always well-intentioned ones, they believe themselves righteous, passionately so, or they are driven by intense love, love that is sometimes even laced with trauma, grief and abandonment. You’d be hard pressed to find a single trait about either of them that couldn’t both be considered positive and negative at once, that’s driven them to do both good and bad things. And for this, they are so fundamentally human to the core, they repel tropes, more complicated than all the tropes you could assign to them put together. Phenomenal characters.
Eric Draven from The Crow. Watch it every October 30th. There's something so compelling about the story of a soul that can't rest, not because he was brutally murdered, but because his fiancee was too, the night before their wedding. It's one of my favorite movies ever.
I made a set of 14 super powered characters based on the 7 Virtues and vices, but only gave any characterization to just the embodiment of gluttony, to the point that she's an antihero with a long and storied backstory and the only one of either group that matters at all. She's cannibalistic, eats without hesitation, and far too often jumps to murder first and ask questions never. However, she grew up watching heroes in theatre, which she'd often sneak around to watch, and wants to be a hero herself. She also draws a hard line at hurting children. But she's also mentally childish herself, and views being a hero like a game, and winning involves finding and killing bad guys. To her, the easiest and most black n' white way to find a bad guy is if they hurt kids. She later on draws another line at slavery, because she witnessed first-hand in the US how it hurts kids. She becomes an American war hero, and then a hero in her homeland too, albeit under different names. Her life calms down, she makes a friend, aaand friend dies. Over 200 years of existing and she's made 1 friend, who quickly gets murdered. This motivates her to go back to doing her "hero work" and hunting down villains, all while laughing and smiling the whole way through, never explaining why she's killing these people, and gets labeled a serial killer. People who once respected and admired her now fears her, not that she could ever see a difference to begin with. Eventually, she finds out that not only is her reality just a video game, but that she's been the antagonist of the story the whole time, which drastically changes her behavior patterns, as she uses genre savviness to find, and get a literary upper hand over, the various protagonists (ironic, as she's illiterate). Though, her values do degrade over time, due to the knowledge that "none of this is real," and she gets a new goal of ending the game to break out of it, to get to the "real world" and become a "real hero."
That sounds like a whole load of fun! I'm imagining Gluttony like a "good" twin to a particular character from Alice Isn't Dead, who is just this terrifying force of hunger and destruction, saying at one point, "I could take you apart using only my teeth." I feel like you could also turn this into a collaborative work, if you wanted to keep working on Gluttony and have other writers work out the other characters.
The Bartimaeus Trilogy ! Pretty underated young adult fantasy series in my opinion. One of the reasons I enjoyed it so much was that both main characters are anti heroes and it makes their relationship so entertainjng. And then the end of their arc ...
Pausing after you bring up the anti-hero often slotting into the lancer role easily. Now here's an usual twist - what about fitting the anti-hero into the heart role instead? I mean, you see the self-destructive behaviors of Tony Stark, Lisbeth Salander - they're struggling with things. Now imagine a heart-strong character. Hyper empathy and sorely lacking the tools to cope with it. Is this the skeleton for an anti-hero as the Heart of a Five Man Band?
My favorite antihero is whomever I am into now (and Tony Stark). So now, both Hob Gadling and Eric H. Marid (a.k.a. Nightlord). The former is a man who refuses to die and lives however he likes, including as a mercenary, a seadog, the bookkeeper for the triangle slave trade, and a history teacher. He never does anything purposefully evil but is a gray look into what immortality could do to the average Joe. Eric is a self-aware evil creature of the night, but he tries to not kill the innocent and protects children (often really violently). Eric loves imperfectly, makes dimension-shifting mistakes, tries to be a good king in the second book, and fights for good but is often selfish. I didn't think I'd like this story, but it has one of the best humanity-self-inserts I've ever listened to (a family member owns the audiobooks I'm rapidly going through).
Vegeta from DBZ is one of my favorite anti heroes. He goes from being a major antagonist who was sent to destroy Earth and became Goku's main rival, before claiming Earth as his home, having a wife and kids, and becoming one of the Z-Fighters charged with safeguarding Earth.
And now comment #3, BB Edition. Walter White is what I consider an antihero when excluding what other people seem to have settled on as a definition. He's very much a bad guy with good intentions as our PoV character, rather than a good guy with questionable motivations (which I consider just a flawed hero, not an antihero).
One of my Favourite Superheroes is Darkwing Duck. He is (In his 1990’s version, the new one, though very enjoyable, has smoothed over some less amiable parts of his personality) a glory-hawk first and foremost. He tries to do the right thing, but in the most self-centred way possible, concerned more about his public image and popularity than with the best way to try and end a crisis. To the point where he actively pushes away help, in order to get the credit for himself. And seeing the MASSIVE divide in how good he actually is at superhero work and how good he thinks he is makes the show an absolute blast.
WHAT why did it take so long for youtube to tell me you posted this! heres a comment for the algorithm and also to show my appreciation for everything you do!
I think Jessica Jones, the show especially for me, was so amazing because of how the main villain was used. Kilgrave served as an avatar of Jessica's alcoholism, and her view of abuse and addiction as a whole. His powers, and her struggle against them, served as a literal manifestation of her inability to deny her alcoholism. It controlled her, harmed her, and yet she was powerless to resist it if it even remotely was within her sphere.
I have an idea for an anti-hero protaganist who is a deserter from the army, and is living out his life in a distant city state in a downward spiral of crime and drinking. He is overcome with the shame of abandoning his men to die to save his own life, and thinks of himself as a coward. While he doesn't care about his life, he is still driven by his self preservation instincts. The story will ask questions of what it means to be brave, and at what point does the will to survive outweigh heroic aspirations. There will be a redemption arc where he will ultimately have to choose between staying alive and fighting for something. I just need a plot now.
A great example of anti-heroes complicating the arcs of others is Miller from the Expanse. He starts out as a foil for the main character but eventually the main character starts become more and more like him, to the point of almost costing him key relationships. Vague post but I'm trying to avoid spoilers. READ/WATCH it!
I’d love to see your thoughts on Captain Flint and Long John Silver from Black Sails. They’re both a study on hero/antihero and an excellent partnership/enemyship with lots of shifting facets throughout the seasons
Years ago, I wrote a post on a writing forum about this very topic. I wish I could remember what I wrote, because the forum died and I did not bother to archive my posts. The way I see it, an anti-hero is a character without the "classic" qualities of a traditional hero, but a hero nonetheless. They are not attractive, or brave, or role-models, or good friends, or strong, or law-abiding citizens, etcetera, but they do good deeds and fight evil, even for their own reasons, and that separates them from classical heroes and actual villains. Another thing is that they are not simply "edgy, brooding and motivated by vengeance." There are dozens of completely valid reasons to become an anti-hero, like survival, or an erroneous sense of justice. And there are dozens of edgy and brooding heroes (many versions of Batman and what we call a Byronic hero) and anti-heroes that are not edgy and brooding (Alucard from Hellsing is just edgy, but never broods. Shinji Ikari is just brooding, but not edgy.)
For me the perfect antihero is well....one of the first. Guts from Berserk is a complicated individual to say the least. From my perspective he's the most real and human character I've ever seen, you can't use words to describe him.
![On Writing: The Darkest Hour Trope [ Avatar | LOTR | Doctor Who ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/c2S7zjfs0aU/mqdefault.jpg)
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**heyo, this video is kinda dying and I'm not sure why, but any comments/shares/like help!
Why u didn't mention Eren :/
Edit: maybe bc it contains too much spoilers... understandable
@@foggyforest2625 Eren is a weird one. I don't think he really fit as an antihero in the first 2 thirds, just a standard hero, but then after, let's just say I'd call him more a villain.
~ Tim
@@HelloFutureMe - Though I haven't finished AoT as of yet, I'm inclined to disagree. Even when Eren is objectively doing the right thing, even when his actions don't cause harm to anyone else and serves the greater good, at the core his actions are always motivated by his singular desire for vengeance. When he's not fighting, he's just waiting and preparing for the next battle, intent on destroying his enemy with extreme prejudice. Maybe his motivation isn't really challenged by the narrative at first, but it's always there, consuming his every waking and sleeping moment to the point that it's all he lives for, and he can't conceive of anything beyond it. At least that's my impression.
I swear the UA-cam algorithm hates good content sometimes, this is one of my favorites of yours!
Serious question- does it help/show engagement if I just have the video on loop at all? I'll just leave it up if so, this vid does not deserve to die :(
I think I'd have to agree with Momo on "meow?" being the best antihero out there
Also wow, Graham the wizard, who likes cats (or is it Graham, the wizard who likes cats...?) sure has gone through quite the emotional arc in recent times
"It's more important to tell a human story, than an anti-hero one."
OK 😊
“Katara is motherly, Zuko misses his mom…”
*Points accusatorially at Freud*
“HE CAN’T KEEP GETTING AWAY WITH IT!”
Kid named Zutara
This must stop.
*Freud tries to speak*
NOT EVERYTHING IS ABOUT MOMMY/DADDY ISSUES
Zuko doesn't have mommy issues. He has daddy issues. And sister issues... He has a great uncle though.
@@davidmauriciogutierrezespi5244 Well, Freud did say "sometines a cigar is just a cigar".
Zuko doesn't just have mommy issues, he has daddy issues and sister issues, too. At certain points in the series, he even has uncle issues. Zuko doesn't just have mommy or daddy issues, he has 'whole dam family issues'.
He has the "growing up with psychological issues, in a family that has psychological issues, that doesn't acknowledge dealing with psychological issues" issues...
Here's the thing about issues;
When there are enough then it becomes volumes!
He also has great grandfather issues as well
there's this tumblr post i love that says something along the lines of 'daddy issues make you a people pleaser, mommy issues make you a sociopath' and someone reblogged it with a picture of zuko and azula and i have never forgotten it.
That's why he ends up with a group if friends that are like family 👍
The interesting thing about V, at least in the comic, is that he is a anarchist mirror to the fascist government. In fact, the chapter he is introduced is titled “The Villain” and that text is next to him in the panel. That is something the movie kind of missed on; V apologizes to Evey in the movie over what he did to her and claimed it was necessary, comic V never does. He’s a monster the state made him and knows he has no place in the world that people will create once he has torn down the system. I think the Wachowskis softening him a little wasn’t wrong, but felt like it wasn’t the point.
Interesting, did not know that. So kinda like the bounty hunter in firefly, in that show he even states there is no place in the world he seeks to create for monsters like him.
I have heard the comic is verrrrrry different!
~ Tim
@@HelloFutureMe “V For Vendetta” the movie broadly follows the plot of the comic, but the Wachowskis changed much of the setting and particularly the politics. Alan Moore was interested in Anarchism versus Fascism in the context of Thatcher’s UK, the Wachowskis were interested in Bush era War on Terror politics and how freedom can be surrendered for security. Also, the comic has much grubbier a world and has more characters suffering in it. That explores the theme.
But for V himself, it his hard to argue that Evey was anything other than his instrument to get revenge on the people who destroyed him and to be his replacement for when it becomes time to build a new society. The Wachowskis’ V is much more human in my view for lack of a better word.
@@RedDragon-og8wn had the exact same parallel in my mind reading that comment!
Also in the comics V doesn't make society better. If anything he turns a functioning fascist regime into a dysfunctional anarchy.
Anti heroes with inner demons need humanizing moments. Without those demons interfering with the plot, they turn into Mary Sues, but if they don't have those moments that turn them from tropes to people, they're literally just a lump of angst.
I can relate to the last bit
So Shadow the Hedgehog?
"A hero would sacrifice you to save the world but a villain would sacrifice the world to save you" Quite an underrated statement
Okay cool so now I know I'm an antihero. 🙃
As OSP rightly put a while back, antiheroes are pretty difficult to get right without having them go either full hero or full villain. But hey, I guess that just makes them a good writing challenge 😊
Eren Jeager is the best anti hero
@@LuisSierra42 Eren is the best Eren ever written
I completely agree!!
Osp also misses why lots of peopel think the punisher is an antihero.
169 nice
I try never to think of my characters as Hero , Anti-hero, or a Villain, because it's very easy to start writing about "Tropes rather than people" as you so eloquently put it.
Though, if I had to pick a favorite anti-hero, it would probably be Butcher from the Boys. (the Show.)
I like your name
@@Aranoura In full honesty, I probably would have chosen another name if I had taken more time to think it out. This one doesn't really feel like it represents my personality very well.
Glad you like it though.
tbf Butcher is only so good because of Karl Urban. But yeah, I kept thinking of hi the entire video
One of my favorite anti heroes, if he can be classified as such, is The Hound from GoT.
Same! I especially love his interactions with the Stark sisters
Agreed! When he covered Arya's eyes in the beginning to save her from seeing something traumatic, that showed a lot about his character
He goes from sympathetic villain to antihero, his whole job narratively for a long time is making Arya a worse person and showing her that her world isn't for heroes.
@@Kitty-nq6dc you mean neds beheading? that was another guy
@@vivvy_0 Na, when Robs body has his Wolfs head attached to it.
One anti-hero that I've loved recently is Luthen from Andor. His speech in episode 10 really sets his character. He knows that he uses immoral, sometimes even 'bad' methods to fight the Empire. Luthen is fully aware of who and what he, willing to give up his personal peace and comfort so that the rest of the galaxy can get theirs.
Eh, I'd argue that he was more of an anti-villain. He was fighting against a legitimate government (democratically approved) that brought peace.
@@GoldenSunAlex Are real fascists' boots too dirty for you to lick?
@@TheSuperRatt *Rolls eyes* Just read the lore. The SW Galaxy is a shitty place, and things were better off for 99% of the galaxy under the empire, compared to the periods before and after.
@@GoldenSunAlex yes, things went great once they instituted slavery. military spending continued to skyrocket after war ended, and firing squads were sent to every protest
@@GoldenSunAlex Palpatine orchestrated both sides of a war so that the senate would give him emergency powers, which he continued to abuse until he had accumulated enough military power to declare himself emperor. This does not sound legitimate to me.
A comment to get lost in the sea: Merlin (BBC) may not have the best writing, BUT DEAR IF IT DOESN'T GO HARD ON THE THEMES. And when you talked about hero-to-anti-hero/villain & the tragedy involved in it, it just made me remember it. Morgana is an anti-hero who goes full villain and Merlin is a hero with the moral of an anti-hero. And if you watched the show, you would know what I am talking about!
(I just had to say it. Is so much fun to read-too-much into this show, because it lets you. Is a family show, but it lets you, since is also a tragedy.)
Yeah I always liked how Morgana's fall arc is just so inevitable too. You can morally follow her every step of the way and come to the conclusion you might do the same. Very compelling character.
It kills me watching the show knowing that nearly everything in the final season could be fixed if Merlin could bring himself to be nice to a desperately lonely kid who just wants some positive reinforcement
@@Ouvii
She was done for me when she genuinly believed to have claim to the throne on the basis of her heritage while denying Uther as her father at the same time. It was so ridiculous.
Personally, I'd say Kratos is unironically a damn good anti-hero. This is especially present in the two most recent games, where in the former, he's cold to his son and to others, but gives life lessons to his sons. As compared, in the latter game, he becomes someone worth praise.
Artemis Fowl was my whole childhood (also congrats on 1mil🎉)
If only some HollyWood producer decided to make a movie out of it
@@LuisSierra42 If only
@@LuisSierra42 Tim Burton, Christopher Nolan, maybe Del Toro? Or Peter Jackson perhaps
I never read Artemis Fowl and I have a question about it:Why is he named Artemis? I mean I am from India and there's a lot of men named after goddesses here but they usually have suffixes like 'servant' or 'foot' to make the name masculine but Artemis doesn't seem to have any like this. So... I am just a curious guy who wants to know why is such.
@@CaptainvonDore Well, yes, normally it's the same in western languages, and a lot of traditional names do have different suffixes based on gender, but Greek deities have never really been popular namesakes in western Europe or the English-speaking world, and since ancient Greek is also not a widely spoken language I suspect it's probably unlikely that those gendered naming conventions would've popped up (or stuck around) in relation to those particular names.
More notably though, there is actually a somewhat corny bit in the third book where the villain makes fun of Artemis by saying "isn't that a girl's name?" and then at the end when Artemis inevitably outsmarts him he explains that yes, it is the name of a female goddess, but she's also the goddess of the hunt and Artemis does think of himself as a sort of hunter (he genuinely says "I hunted you" to the guy, which is perhaps a bit over the top but it seemed cool to me when I was like 13).
Worm plays this very well especially because you are in the antihero's head the whole story and while she acknowledges she isn't the best, she's really, really good about not thinking about it. One of the most striking moments being one of the "interlude" chapters from someone else's perspective and it's clear just how terrifying she is. It's abundantly clear if you stop and think about what any of the fights would actually look like but because the main character is so at ease with it, it doesn't really hit you until you see it through someone else.
Worm is one of the best depictions of an anti-hero I have ever read. She does so much bad, and even evil stuff, but she is genuinely convinced that doing so is for the best and thinks she is making the best choice she can. It's a very compelling narrative.
Yes this, everyone talk about Worm more please. It is especially good at how it develops the ideas of right and wrong.
I'm interested, but also imagine simply googling "worm book" will not narrow things down much. Who wrote it?
@@hughcaldwell1034 it's a web serial, written by Wildbow.
@@hughcaldwell1034 You can also look up 'parahumans' or 'wildbow' (the series and the author).
20:23 "Characters don't have to be likeable, they just need to be interesting". Thank you.
I write mostly Villain Protagonist stories, this is what I like and am satisfied with writing about. Sometimes they more on the grey side, sometimes they in the black and white universe, sometimes they pure 80', or just Chaos Champion in Warhammer 40k or Age of Sigmar. But I really try to make them interesting and matching the universe/theme I try to go with, whitout going to the side of anti-hero or "hero, but the badge is wrong" or "anti-hero at worst but everyone else is a psycho". They are villains, main character villains, they are not symphathethic nor likable, they will have humanising characteristics and I try and work really hard to make them interesting, have something that reader would go "Ok, I wonder what happens next?". Because I love fictional villains, wheter it's Cobra Commander, G1 Megatron, Skeletor, Hannibal Lecter, Lucius the Eternal, Doctor Doom, clan Tzimisce or comic book Thanos.
I'm also attempting to write a villain protagonist, but in such a way that the reader doesn't quite realize that the protagonist was a villain all along. Epistolary first person is my attempt to disguise it, since then the reader isn't just limited to the protagonist's thoughts but to what they write, but it's definitely a negative arc and definitely one that is going to cause a lot of chaos as people fight about whether the protagonist is an antihero who does what they think is right or a full blown villain on a mission.
Is your stuff available somewhere? I need more villain protagonists in my life.
I smiled so wide when you held up the Artemis fowl books. That series really doesn't get the widespread love it deserves!
How dare you make Roy Mustang out to be good to only Hawkeye!?! He's the absolute best!!! And he's more than good to just Hawkeye. His care for his friends and subordinates is incredible. He is so caring... just has the wrong career path - so he's trying to fix it.
Colonel Mustang deserves so much more respect than people give him 😭
Don't know man... I feel like Mustang is kinda overrated; Now don't get me wrong, he is a great Character, but I would had been much more satisfied if I had seen him resent what he has done in Ishval, like Hawkeye and especially, Major Armstrong... But, we never got that. Honestly, I can't say a single thing Scar did wrong (except Killing Winry's parents, but he was sought of out of his mind from PTSD) but he is treated much worse than Mustang.
@@yuvrajganguly what are you talking about?! He totally resents it. It's a recurring theme for him. He absolutely hates what he did during the war. But he has a plan to fix it, which, while flawed, is better than wallowing in self-pity.
But you are correct. Scar gets unnecessary amounts of hate.
@@Nariasan I just wished to see that more in the forefront; like when I think about Major Armstrong, I remember that he withdrew from the line as he so much hated harming civilians, but for Roy, it kinda gets overshadowed by his ambitions, personality and scenes like the rage moment.... And hardly any Mustang fans mentions the atrocities he has committed
@@yuvrajganguly I'm a Mustang fan and I mention it all the time. It's actually why I'm a fan of his, because I feel Arakawa-sensei did a fantastic job with his character. Also, the amount of Royai fanfics that focus on it are numerous, too. You're mistaking Armstrong's discharge for PTSD as him withdrawing from the fight. He didn't withdraw at all - no consciously anyway. He was, by all accounts, dishonorably demoted for his inaction due to PTSD.
@@yuvrajgangulyUmm- scar tried to kill two teenage boys. The Elric brothers were like ten when his family was killed. They were completely innocent and he just decided to kill them multiple times.
Not the Graham the Wizard story we deserve, but the one we need ✊
I believe that he can find his inner love for cat driving him again, he is interesting, i miss old graham, weep
I think one of the consistent traits that I've seen in successful anti-heroes is that they are very competent. I'd be interested if there are any examples where that is not true.
Yeah they have to be in order to counter how they might be reluctant, or a barely functioning addict, or just trying really hard to make up for a mistake they made.
Favorite Anti-hero: Guts from Berserk
phenomenal story, with Guts' arc bringing it all together. He goes from not knowing anything but violence to finding friends, a goal, and a reason to keep struggling
I adore the Artemis Fowl plug--especially since someone made a movie whose protagonist had a very similar name, but claim they didn't see why a kid's story should be about an anti-hero.
That said, Artemis is also a perfect example of an anti-hero with foils. Holly the cop from the morality view, but also Butler as the more experienced anti-hero just doing his job. Such a good series!
Have you seen Hadestown? It is one of the best examples of an idiot plot/tragic hero I've ever seen. It's incredibly well written and the music is phenomenal!
Okay, this is weird, I was listening to the album just earlier today. I agree, absolutely phenomenal.
(Also there was a comment from someone who had previously thought that Hades' line "I conduct the electric city!" was "I can dance the electric shimmy!" which is hilarious.)
Fun fact: the two characters in the opening skit? Both played by the same guy. *sigh* yet another great performance ignored by the Academy 😔
My mind is blown🤣
Really like the term "gritty fatigue." It's why I stopped watching Walking Dead pretty early and could barely finish the first season of True Detective.
There are a vast multitude of antiheroes to chose from, but I'm going to tentatively say my favourite is Homura Akemi from Madoka Magica. And actually, Kyoko Sakura from the same series too, notable given the different trajectories their arcs end up on.
Congrats on 1M subs man 🎉
I really do wish they made an Artermis Fowl movies or tv show it would of been so good.
Yeah, I would have loved an Artemis Fowl movie adaptation. Shame it never happened.
They did, though...
(It wasn't good)
@Longshot97 No, they didn't, there is no Artemis Fowl movie.
@@longshot9757 Hahahahahahahahahah.
That was a fine jest, but please, there is no Artemis Fowl Movie Adaption
I think one of my favorite things is we basically have his character arc being starting as an anti-villain who overtime shifts over to anti-hero. Artemis was never going to be a Steve Rogers type of hero, but the amount of growth he goes through over the series is amazing and it's wonderful how he helps expand the worldview of his eventual friends as they expand his.
I don't know if it count at all, but one of my personal way to distinguish a Hero from an Anti-Hero is the way they handle their Inner Demons, a Hero wants to face them (and if the Inner Demons win, then the Hero becomes Tragic One), Anti-Hero, instead, learns how to live with them.
It's so funny that you went from TLOU2 to Full Metal Alchemist and played a clip of Lust since Lust shares a voice actor with Abby
I always find it weird when people talk the ending to the last of us and frame it as unexpected, jarring or morally grey. When the game came out people all over the web were declaring they couldn't believe what happened, and what Joel did. But then when I actually learned what happened I remember thinking, how could anyone imagine this story wrapping up in any other way?! Of course Joel was going to save Ellie. What would have been crazy is if didn't. If you spent all that time building that relationship and the he just let her die. I didn't understand why were people freaking out about this. It's also weird that people would consider saving her, wrong in anyway. Stopping the brutal murder of an innocent child? How abhorrent! Sure they are doing it to TRY and cure the cordyceps, but they explain not only is this not guaranteed, but it's not even the first time they have done this, and are still no closer to figuring it out than before. More likely than not Ellies death would be totally meaningless. If anything, in this situation, Joel is the Hero and the Fireflies are the anti-heroes who are doing the wrong thing for the right reason. It's been a while since I have seen the ending, but I don't even think Joel has to kill that many people or any at all. It is the players actions that determine how much of a bloodbath the scene becomes. Maybe not, but either way, I never saw this as a morally grey choice or a shocking outcome am always confused when it is described as such.
The last of us and the pair of anti-heros in Joel and Ellie are such difficult and wonderful characters. The adaption that is on at the moment is giving us some really good takes on the story and characters as well.
Love your work mate.
This was the exact moment Tim became a Breaking Bad fan.
Bravo, Vince!
I told you you would like Breaking Bad. I told you so. I TOLD YOU SO.
Who wouldn't? In my opinion one of the greatest TV shows/series of all time.
This was the exact moment Tim became a Breaking Bad fan.
Bravo, Vince!
He needs to watch BCS now to get the whole story
me imagining a granny's voice xD
@@TooSweet353 You'd be surprised. Of the people I personally know, more of them dislike the show than like it (though it's mostly due to personal preferences rather than any perceived flaws in the storytelling) Even though I love the show and acknowledge that it's a masterpiece. I still think it's sometimes suffocatingly American in its storytelling, it's so dry, bleak and (mostly) unempathetic, much like its setting (it really doesn't make me wanna visit Albuquerque). There is this bleakness in its atmosphere that makes it hard to get through. And while brilliantly filmed end effective, it doesn't FEEL good to watch in the same way something like Dune does.
A version of a character archetype I enjoy, that I feel is often put under the umbrella of antihero, is characters that do good or bad completely dependent on how they feel in the moment, though still don't end up villians. Probably the biggest example being Deadpool, but some versions of Harley Quinn would also be an example.
I honestly take Deadpool as the quintessential anti-hero because he is clearly able to walk the line of villainous acts but he's always better than the villains he fights. The reason I hold him as the one to strive for is he's not edgy about it. He has very good reasons to do what he does but he does so with an honest personality.
Respect for how your content has consistently matured over time. Really enjoying your recent content.
CONGRATS ON 1 MIL SUBSCRIBERS YOU DESERVE 100 MIL!!!!
Congrats on One million subscribers, watched loads of your videos and love you so much even though I'm aussie. truly one of the greats
Your aussie mate
Biggest problem with mainstream media and their characters is writing characters like checking off boxes, not actually writing someone who could very well be a real human being. Its like with villains… write a tragic backstory, make them irredeemable, bam. As opposed to writing a human being it’s a character who has to check boxes to be considered “good” to people.
9:40 the chart leading to Levi is poetic
Yeah, i wonder why he didn't mention Eren in this video
Congratulations on hitting one million subscribers!!
Wait you're telling me Taylor Swift did not come up with the concept of an anti-hero?
Lol I was also waiting for a mention.
😂
Congrats on 1 million subs!!!!
Been watching for a year now. Love this format.
Captain America /does/ believe that the ends justify the means in Civil War. That's sort of Tony's whole argument, that the ends don't justify the means because of the unnecessary loss of life, while Cap doesn't want government oversight because he learned in the previous movie not to to trust the government and so he justifies the unnecessary death in order to avoid what he deems the greater evil
I have this character in one of my stories, who I feel like comes under this category BUT his is a more special case of being groomed by an evil man since childhood to do these bad things, and his arc is about him realizing this abuse, coming to terms with it and overcoming it and therefore finding out who he is BEHIND that 'bad person' the evil man made him become
“Edgy” and “gritty” are so overdone… great video as always. I wish more mainstream cultural productions listened to the kind of advice you give.
Another good example of a flat antihero is Lelouch from Code Geass; his willingness to do whatever it takes is consistent throughout the story, he sacrificed everyone in some shape or form to free the world from Brittania, even himself.
Yes. I kept thinking of Lelouch listening to this. His end goal is quite noble - wanting to create a peaceful world for his sister - but he manipulates others and uses morally questionable actions to achieve that goal. Plus there are many aspects to his character. He does have his softer moments - mainly when he's interacting with Nunnally - & even some funnier moments which primarily happen when he's keeping up his schoolboy persona (the cat chase around the school is a big example).
Your "why are cities where they are" video gave me the kick to finally try out this worldbuilding thing a while back. I probably won't ever actually write the book, but you totally just made me realize the main character is an antihero...
0:16 FAVORITE MOMENT
I feel like the negative arc could apply to Solo Wing Pixy from Ace Combat Zero. He starts as your sole wingman and ends with you killing him in a dogfight to stop him from launching nukes for the goal of destroying countries and their borders for a terrorist organisation he joined during his midgame disappearance.
Not mentioning Eren as definitely the best anime anti-hero is basically a war crime
No- I’m sorry but there’s just so many amazing anti- heroes in anime. Though I’ll admit I haven’t watched or read ATOT.
I never read Artemis Fowl as a kid, and I’m starting to think I really need to.
Update: I’ve listened to the first two books now, and I love them.
I'll say as somebody who loved the series as a kid, and recently started a reread as a 30 sometime adult; I definitely think it's worth a try at least. For as much as the author is just using real world mythology and legends he matches to build a really cool world with the mix of magic technology you have, and just all the little details that make it more three-dimensional then it could have been. And before that you have a really fun cast that we get to see so much from.
The plot of the first one is Artemis fowl kidnaps a fairy to try to save his family's fortune, and we basically have a dual protagonist for that book with Artemis himself and his kidnapped victim. Holly herself is a great character, the first female captain in LEPrecon with a big chip on her shoulder thanks to that. It in part makes me think somebody saw Die Hard and went why can't we have a story with both central characters as protagonist, because yeah there's a lot of John McClane energy to Holly.
@@RenaDeles That does sound interesting. Thanks!
Holy shit the point you made about anti-heroes depicted as smokers is so true, right off the top of my head I can think of at least a handful!
OSP talk a lot about smoking/drinking as an antiheroic trait, and how it's become counter to what we think of traditionally heroic; where as in the 50's and 60's it was normal so it wasn't an antiheroic quality.
I’m so proud of you that you made it to 1 million! 🎉🎉🎉 congratulations. It’s been such an amazing journey since the how to train your dragon days and I’m glad I’ve been along for the ride. 😊
A favourite anti-hero is Amos Burton from the Expanse (books and show).
He's no-nonsense in a very blunt way. His backstory (no details because spoilers) means he grew up in a world where death and violence were just facts of life. He once says "I haven't felt fear since I was 6 years old" and the reaction to that unsettles him. He actively seeks out good people, because he knows he isn't capable of making good choices. In book 5 he has a moment where he acts on his instincts, and is questioned on it by someone he's met. His reflection is that he has lost his moral compass, and so needs to get himself back to his crew. Because they guide him.
He's not a thug, he doesn't flex and he doesn't even really do threats. If he says "Do X or I'll Y" it's not him trying to intimidate someone, its cause and effect. Do this and we have no problem. If we have problem I deal with you. That's how his world has always worked. He lacks that wider value system.
Except when it comes to kids. He'll look after kids. You don't fuck about with kids when Amos is around. And if he considers you his people, he's yours. In book 3 there's a woman who shows him kindness and thanks him for looking after her. He just looks at her and says "Nothing's going to happen to you." It's not a reassurance, it's a fact. He has decided that he will not let anything happen to this kind woman. She can be scared if she wants, she can be calm, that's helpful. But either way, he's not letting anything happen.
He's just such a fantastic character.
*TIM:* "The ANTIHERO!"
*SUBTITLES:* "the anteater"
Imagine useing Campfire to plot out a fanfic 🤣
Thank you for the awesome videos and books...you're a great resource for writers/creatives!
This just what I needed to help write my anti hero in my book! I've been struggling to make him... not cringe, but this helps me understand things I should try to make him less cringe.
And frankly, this is the literal director mission statement of The Last Of Us. The whole point of the series, the theme that supercedes all, is exploring how LOVE (something we would think of as being unambiguously good) is actually more complicated. Not just white, but black and all shades of grey in between.
Love is responsible for the best things that happen in our world, but also responsible for some of the worst things that happen in our world, especially interpersonally. Love can push you to do great and terrible things.
This is why Joel and Ellie are some of the best anti-heroes you can find in media, their arcs are defined, dynamic, but it doesn’t lead to them becoming the perfect little person, or arguably even particularly good ones, at least not healthy ones, yet always well-intentioned ones, they believe themselves righteous, passionately so, or they are driven by intense love, love that is sometimes even laced with trauma, grief and abandonment. You’d be hard pressed to find a single trait about either of them that couldn’t both be considered positive and negative at once, that’s driven them to do both good and bad things. And for this, they are so fundamentally human to the core, they repel tropes, more complicated than all the tropes you could assign to them put together. Phenomenal characters.
Yes, Taylor Swift, it IS exhausting always rooting for the anti-hero, but I regret nothing ✨
Eric Draven from The Crow. Watch it every October 30th. There's something so compelling about the story of a soul that can't rest, not because he was brutally murdered, but because his fiancee was too, the night before their wedding. It's one of my favorite movies ever.
I made a set of 14 super powered characters based on the 7 Virtues and vices, but only gave any characterization to just the embodiment of gluttony, to the point that she's an antihero with a long and storied backstory and the only one of either group that matters at all.
She's cannibalistic, eats without hesitation, and far too often jumps to murder first and ask questions never. However, she grew up watching heroes in theatre, which she'd often sneak around to watch, and wants to be a hero herself. She also draws a hard line at hurting children. But she's also mentally childish herself, and views being a hero like a game, and winning involves finding and killing bad guys.
To her, the easiest and most black n' white way to find a bad guy is if they hurt kids. She later on draws another line at slavery, because she witnessed first-hand in the US how it hurts kids. She becomes an American war hero, and then a hero in her homeland too, albeit under different names.
Her life calms down, she makes a friend, aaand friend dies. Over 200 years of existing and she's made 1 friend, who quickly gets murdered. This motivates her to go back to doing her "hero work" and hunting down villains, all while laughing and smiling the whole way through, never explaining why she's killing these people, and gets labeled a serial killer. People who once respected and admired her now fears her, not that she could ever see a difference to begin with.
Eventually, she finds out that not only is her reality just a video game, but that she's been the antagonist of the story the whole time, which drastically changes her behavior patterns, as she uses genre savviness to find, and get a literary upper hand over, the various protagonists (ironic, as she's illiterate). Though, her values do degrade over time, due to the knowledge that "none of this is real," and she gets a new goal of ending the game to break out of it, to get to the "real world" and become a "real hero."
That sounds like a whole load of fun! I'm imagining Gluttony like a "good" twin to a particular character from Alice Isn't Dead, who is just this terrifying force of hunger and destruction, saying at one point, "I could take you apart using only my teeth."
I feel like you could also turn this into a collaborative work, if you wanted to keep working on Gluttony and have other writers work out the other characters.
The Bartimaeus Trilogy ! Pretty underated young adult fantasy series in my opinion. One of the reasons I enjoyed it so much was that both main characters are anti heroes and it makes their relationship so entertainjng. And then the end of their arc ...
Pausing after you bring up the anti-hero often slotting into the lancer role easily.
Now here's an usual twist - what about fitting the anti-hero into the heart role instead? I mean, you see the self-destructive behaviors of Tony Stark, Lisbeth Salander - they're struggling with things. Now imagine a heart-strong character. Hyper empathy and sorely lacking the tools to cope with it. Is this the skeleton for an anti-hero as the Heart of a Five Man Band?
That opening is beautiful & priceless.
My favorite antihero is whomever I am into now (and Tony Stark). So now, both Hob Gadling and Eric H. Marid (a.k.a. Nightlord).
The former is a man who refuses to die and lives however he likes, including as a mercenary, a seadog, the bookkeeper for the triangle slave trade, and a history teacher. He never does anything purposefully evil but is a gray look into what immortality could do to the average Joe.
Eric is a self-aware evil creature of the night, but he tries to not kill the innocent and protects children (often really violently). Eric loves imperfectly, makes dimension-shifting mistakes, tries to be a good king in the second book, and fights for good but is often selfish. I didn't think I'd like this story, but it has one of the best humanity-self-inserts I've ever listened to (a family member owns the audiobooks I'm rapidly going through).
Season 2, episode 5 of Tim's Descent Into Madness is looking pretty good, I rate 4/5 drinking problems
I love missy from doctor who because her “redemption arc” just essentially goes from villain to anti-hero 😂
Honestly, I just have huge softspot for "villain to antihero" characters. I don't even know why, I just love most of them
kelsier from misborn is my favorite example of an antihero. he uses morally shaky methods to accomplish a moral good, because of his fucked up past
my favorite Anti-hero is Bilbo because he is disgruntled and doesn't want to be there
Mr. Inbetween is an amazing example of anti hero story. Highly recommend it!
Vegeta from DBZ is one of my favorite anti heroes. He goes from being a major antagonist who was sent to destroy Earth and became Goku's main rival, before claiming Earth as his home, having a wife and kids, and becoming one of the Z-Fighters charged with safeguarding Earth.
Please never stop making stuff
Congrats on a million and loved the video. Here's one for the algorithm.
First for patreon privileges
lol
When you talk about characters who just WON'T STOP BEING EDGY, I immediately thought of Ringil from "The Steel Remains"
And now comment #3, BB Edition. Walter White is what I consider an antihero when excluding what other people seem to have settled on as a definition. He's very much a bad guy with good intentions as our PoV character, rather than a good guy with questionable motivations (which I consider just a flawed hero, not an antihero).
"I am that guy." - Amos Burton from The Expanse
A close second would be Miller - "I didn't kill him because he was crazy. I killed him because he was making sense."
Oh welcome back from your break!! Great video like always :D
One of my Favourite Superheroes is Darkwing Duck.
He is (In his 1990’s version, the new one, though very enjoyable, has smoothed over some less amiable parts of his personality) a glory-hawk first and foremost. He tries to do the right thing, but in the most self-centred way possible, concerned more about his public image and popularity than with the best way to try and end a crisis. To the point where he actively pushes away help, in order to get the credit for himself.
And seeing the MASSIVE divide in how good he actually is at superhero work and how good he thinks he is makes the show an absolute blast.
WHAT why did it take so long for youtube to tell me you posted this! heres a comment for the algorithm and also to show my appreciation for everything you do!
My favourite anti-hero is 90s/00s-era War Machine, right up until the Eidolon suit. Thanks for asking!
Congrats on 1 million subscribers mate :)
I think Jessica Jones, the show especially for me, was so amazing because of how the main villain was used.
Kilgrave served as an avatar of Jessica's alcoholism, and her view of abuse and addiction as a whole. His powers, and her struggle against them, served as a literal manifestation of her inability to deny her alcoholism. It controlled her, harmed her, and yet she was powerless to resist it if it even remotely was within her sphere.
really glad that you mentioned Avatar, it really knows how to implement flawed characters
ARTEMIS FUCKING FOWL ❤️
Anyone remember JR Ewing from Dallas on TV in the 80’s? I think he’s the first anti-hero I encountered as a kid.
I have an idea for an anti-hero protaganist who is a deserter from the army, and is living out his life in a distant city state in a downward spiral of crime and drinking. He is overcome with the shame of abandoning his men to die to save his own life, and thinks of himself as a coward. While he doesn't care about his life, he is still driven by his self preservation instincts. The story will ask questions of what it means to be brave, and at what point does the will to survive outweigh heroic aspirations. There will be a redemption arc where he will ultimately have to choose between staying alive and fighting for something. I just need a plot now.
TLOU show has been amazing so far
Anti villain video soon? My favorite is Kreia I think she's the perfect example of it. My favorite anti hero is Revan. Both star wars characters
A great example of anti-heroes complicating the arcs of others is Miller from the Expanse. He starts out as a foil for the main character but eventually the main character starts become more and more like him, to the point of almost costing him key relationships. Vague post but I'm trying to avoid spoilers. READ/WATCH it!
I sacrifice thy blood and children to the gods of the algorithm, for truly I am the anitest of heroes
I’d love to see your thoughts on Captain Flint and Long John Silver from Black Sails. They’re both a study on hero/antihero and an excellent partnership/enemyship with lots of shifting facets throughout the seasons
I didn't even realize this video was uploaded until 3 days later. Great job, algorithm.
Years ago, I wrote a post on a writing forum about this very topic. I wish I could remember what I wrote, because the forum died and I did not bother to archive my posts.
The way I see it, an anti-hero is a character without the "classic" qualities of a traditional hero, but a hero nonetheless. They are not attractive, or brave, or role-models, or good friends, or strong, or law-abiding citizens, etcetera, but they do good deeds and fight evil, even for their own reasons, and that separates them from classical heroes and actual villains.
Another thing is that they are not simply "edgy, brooding and motivated by vengeance." There are dozens of completely valid reasons to become an anti-hero, like survival, or an erroneous sense of justice. And there are dozens of edgy and brooding heroes (many versions of Batman and what we call a Byronic hero) and anti-heroes that are not edgy and brooding (Alucard from Hellsing is just edgy, but never broods. Shinji Ikari is just brooding, but not edgy.)
Yaaaaay - Summary Time With Momo the Cat! 💗
(Great essay, thank you!)
For me the perfect antihero is well....one of the first. Guts from Berserk is a complicated individual to say the least. From my perspective he's the most real and human character I've ever seen, you can't use words to describe him.