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Toxic Forgiveness
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- Опубліковано 29 вер 2021
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Forgiveness - my least favorite "F word!"
So often forgiveness is presented as an obligation and a moral necessity - but is it, really? Let me know what you think!
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I love this game! I think I tried it before and I didn't get into it until I tried it again a few months ago! 😁
In my experience, people push forgiveness upon us because they’re uncomfortable. Their comfort shouldn’t be a priority in our healing 💚🤙🏻
This! Forgiveness is for and about you, and that step comes later in the healing process, if it needs to come at all. Forgiveness comes when you are ready to let go of anger/pain. Getting to that point takes *ages* you shouldn't be pushed for moments or weeks after someone does something that requires forgiveness.
Exactly. Some people do NOT deserve forgiveness. Asking someone to forgive a molester is like asking someone to forgive a rapist who deserve to be locked up for life…….
And honestly, anyone that tries to force you to forgive and judges you if you chose not to, is part of the problem. If you don’t want to forgive someone who, let’s face facts here, is a fûcking sack of flesh that is essentially a monster, then it is your choice….. and is the right thing to do. Someone who molests others only deserve to have their body be butchered in some way.
As someone who was also in an abusive relationship that left me with C-PTSD, I've always heard that it's some powerful motion to forgive and that's it's the only way forward to live your life. Funny how everyone says there's no one treatment for everyone, but forgiveness is somehow a cure-all for every person.
Allowing myself to believe it's okay to NOT forgive him for sexual, mental, and physical abuse was the most powerful and freeing moment I've had regarding this. Having people trying to make me forgive him just reopens the wounds I've healed from and does me NO good.
As someone in the same boat, you are so seen. And you know what? I'm not going to even consider forgiving her unless she asks for it. Which she won't, so I won't.
What's a whole lot harder, at least for me, is forgiving *myself*. It's something I'm still working on, 10 years later.
@@andrewjuby6339 Oh yeah, definitely there with you. I wish you the absolute best luck and I hope you get there soon
@@WillowtheRainFawn The biggest step for me was when someone told me that the behavior I was describing was actual abuse. For so long I thought I was just being a whiner about a bad breakup; learning that how I was reacting was, in fact, completely natural given the circumstances was a huge breakthrough for me.
@@andrewjuby6339 I can imagine it was an extremely appreciated moment there. Validation can really help more than so many realize
Right? In the moment that my therapist said “maybe you need to take revenge” SO MUCH anger and pain left me. That was the moment when I started to move on.
Forcing forgiveness is a form of victim blaming. It puts all of the weight of responsibility on the victim instead of the perpetrator. Good on you for calling your own shots and not giving in to the pressure. Forgiveness is not the only way to move forward from trauma. May you find your own peace ❤.
I'm a survivor of childhood parental abuse. I absolutely agree with you that a horrific number of people present forgiveness as an obligation on the one harmed with no consideration to the harm it does and no effort to ensure the one who's done harm makes amends and acts in a way that shows anything resembling true remorse.
I have literally lost track of the number of people who've plain tried to bully me into forgiving them "because it's your parents, you Have to Love Them" and after this long I tend to respond with a detailed description of what they are asking me to forgive. (Its amazing how fast they suddenly decide to mind their own business!)
I found the whole concept of an obligation to forgive crazy. I've moved on, I've succeeded and had a freaking awesome life, but my parents do not ever deserve forgiveness for things done that cannot be undone.
I came to the conclusion that the ones demanding I forgive had probably done some pretty shitty things themselves and were peddling the cult of forgiveness in the hope that they would never be held to account themselves.
Yep, I've very easily been able to weed people out of my life because they expect me to forgive without the original issues being resolved.
And considering that these people gaslight in other ways, it's just another way to pile more gaslighting abuse on people.
Forgiveness was absolutely the last thing on my list post-abuse. When you can’t even feel your emotions enough to get angry at the person who wronged you and people are already asking you if you forgive them, I firmly believe that that is those people prioritizing their own comfort over your mental health tbh
Such an important thing to talk about! I really wish there was more emphasis on caring for people after they’ve been through trauma rather than putting more emotional weight on them
Well said
As an abuse survivor, I was always mad at the way forgiveness was presented to me. It was used both religiously and socially as a victim blaming tactic. I was required to forgive my abusers, even though my parents were actively and continually going to abuse me. It made me so mad. Using the help of my therapist now, I know I don't need to forgive to heal. I can peacefully detach and move on without it. And I'm not less than for not forgiving them. Forgiveness is a personal journey and it's great some get a lot out of it, but I don't. I can't forgive someone who doesn't know or care how they horrifically abused me, has no plans to change, and is not pursuing help. I cannot forgive someone who cannot even try to do any of those things (an attempt goes a long way, I know people aren't perfect, but my abuse was real and I'm not releasing someone from the consequences of that because others feel I'm "supposed to" (as a note I'm speaking for consequences of their actions, I have no desire to pursue any revenge. I know their actions will bring about any appropriate karma. Honestly I hope they realize they are unhealthy and heal, but I know that unlikely for them). Personally I'm peacefully detaching with the help of my therapist at my own pace, I'm not going to feel the pressure of others wanting me to be over my decades of pain. So thank you for giving people like me a voice. I agree forgiveness can be so meaningful and helpful to some and that's amazing, but for me I do not want to pursue that. I'm focusing on healing myself first and that's it.
And it's SO NICE to hear someone else who feels similarly to myself. This video was so helpful. Thank you for helping me feel heard.
Your words echo my sentiments exactly! Forgiveness has to be authentic and earned from the wrongdoer taking responsibility for their ill actions and showing genuine remorse...
Forgiveness CANNOT nor should ever be faked out of external pressure and guilt exerted by others. "Virtue signallers" who feign moral superiority by preaching forgiveness, especially in the case of serious harm, are victimizing the victim twice, and as you put it, are "victim blaming."... So glad, you are have support in achieving detachment from those who wronged you... The best!
I love how you put words to the very real and very disturbing experience of having so much taken from you when you’re in an abusive situation and to then turn around and be expected or feel required to give “the gift” of forgiveness - exacting more from the victim for the sake of the abuser is absurd. It’s so violating after you’ve already been violated.
I've had several different traumatic events in my life and for many years I felt like I had to forgive those people. Because of that, I didn't allow myself to feel any of the anger or the pain of what happened. I didn't allow myself to grieve because that would mean acknowledging that they had done something wrong (which they had). I thought forgiveness was the only way to move on when, in fact, it was preventing me from moving on. I think forgiveness can be a wonderful thing once you get to a place where you're ready for it. But, like you said, there's no time-line for that.
This is such an important conversation. One of my closest friends in college was harassed over the phone by her abusive ex for months while he was going through AA because one of the steps is to ask for forgiveness. She didnt want to have to speak to him because of the trauma he put her through and obviously a few months after the last time he physically assaulted her she didn’t forgive him - definitely such a harmful thing to tell people they need to give or get
this right here is the truth. step eight should be about taking responsibility but they use it as an excuse to violate boundaries and blame other people's unwillingness to forgive them for their not being sober
I think when they are going through steps that may involve other people like that it should be handled differently. Like maybe a letter through the mail. I think the step is valid in that by asking forgiveness you are admitting to yourself and the other person that you did wrong but the step is to ask forgiveness not receive it. Harassing someone defeats that purpose. A letter would give the wronged person a sense of power in that they might never open it but even this may open wounds not yet healed.
Steps 8 and 9 of the 12 steps are ; ؛ 8. Made a list of persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others. ‘ Nothing in the 12 steps involves asking others for forgiveness, only ‘making amends’ when doing so would not injure that person or others. The abusive ex in this situation was also abusing the 12 steps!
@@signespencer6887 Sounds like you're much more experienced in this than me but I came here to say this. I guess a lot of it comes down to where the person is and also perhaps to some extent their sponsor. So important anytime any of us acknowledge wrong doing or ask for forgiveness that that's our side of it and anyone we may have hurt can do whatever they want with that information including refusing to respond to it. No one has to forgive anyone for anything.
@@mightymyra well, asking for forgiveness can easily feel like harassment and further injury, and especially if done repeatedly “ for several months” as Hannah describes. And especially if it is not preceded by a full confession and acknowledgement of the damage done. Any responsible sponsor would definitely discourage such behavior and, indeed, would suggest extreme caution and tact in approaching a victim of abuse. Note that bee are talking about step 9…. The alcoholic should have already gone through the first 8 steps before even considering approaching the victim. It sounds like this guy was misusing AA to continue to abuse Hannah’s friend. And no one has the right to demand forgiveness from anyone. Also forgiveness is something the victim does to free themselves from bitterness and ruminating on their wrongs. It is accompanied by appropriate boundaries to prevent recurrence of the wrong behavior. Forgiveness does not include restoration of the relationship.
I think forgiveness can be considered toxic positivity when used in the way you're describing.
I had a similar experience to you. My friends were more concerned about "have you forgiven?" than about how am *I* doing after such a traumatic experience. I actually lost a lot of friends because I felt unable to forgive (and thus "forget" - AKA: not talk about it) right away.
The church I belong to has a booklet designed for survivors of abuse, and I really like the take it has on forgiveness and I've found it helpful for me. It suggests that if the thought of forgiving someone causes you pain right now, set that step aside and focus on other parts of healing. I really like that. I personally see forgiveness as basically giving that pain and that anger to God and trusting him to handle it, and I find that it can be very healing for me. I also find that it's a continuous process that takes years, and sometimes it has been important to set that aside and focus on healing in other
I wish religious organizations during my childhood had spoken about forgiveness in this way!
How do I find that booklet? Is it like widely available?
May I ask what church you are a member of?
I no longer believe in god and so giving the pain away isn't an option for me. I found, for me, that I couldn't continually go thru the forgiveness process... It was just too traumatizing. The initial trauma was bad enough and so I made peace with not forgiving.
That's how I got through my trauma and I think we each have to decide what is right for us.
@@Kymberlee_W I really appreciate your insights! All of our healing journeys are different.
This one drives me crazy. I'm dealing with recovering from something that happened in 2019 with a family member and it was violent on their part. Everyone makes me out for being the bad guy for not forgiving/forgetting and just going on like it never happened. So, no I don't think you have to forgive your abusers and even if you do it doesn't mean they need to be in your life.
You're absolutely right!.. Trying to force forgiveness or guilt someone into forgiveness, not only doesn't work since you can't force something that has to be authentic and earned -- but is also downright cruel. It's abusing the victim twice, while exonerating the wrongdoer.
Did they apologize? Then that needs to happen. The talk about forgiveness.
In the end, I realized that forgiveness meant forgiving myself for whatever happened. Life, Karma, the Universe will take care of the debt created by those who hurt and use people for their own gain or purpose.
Very true, it took me a long time and started to lose my faith with the internal conflict I was struggling with. It was until I forgave myself that I was able to be at peace for the traumas I have suffered. It is easier saod than done, but the release is incredible 💕
Exactly 💯👍💕
Forgiveness doesn't heal my childhood trauma and anger that I experience. It doesn't heal what I'm going through. Forgiveness is like a half empty word sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. I kind of don't believe in that too much.
I feel like the closest thing is trying to forget that the said person did something to you, if they happen to be in the same room, but you can still glare at them and let them know that you remember. And if they look scared, good.
@@julielovesmcr it hard because I'm doing therapy, which is fine because I want that help. But I can't confront that person about what they caused me to experience mentally and emotionally or anything because they are deceased. 😅 It's a awkward thing.. at some point I just don't care but the anger and hurt is just lingering inside me.
Thank you!! I can relate so much to what you spoke of. I myself am on a healing journey from sexual trauma, and I’m sick of being pushed to forgive. I hear it everywhere, self righteous people using this blanket statement of forgiveness, “do it for yourself, it will free you, you are poisoned until you forgive”. While I’m over here going, how can you say that when you have no idea what it’s like in my position. I am poisoned because I was raped, not because I can’t forgive. You’re totally right, it’s a process and a journey, some days I can forgive and others I can’t. I might get there in time but I don’t think there’s on right way towards healing and blanket forgiveness is not it.
I honestly believe that forgiveness is absolutely NOT necessary. And not even good. What is necessary is boundaries. Put up the boundaries that protect you. And then you work on yourself and learning to be happy, to live with what happened. But you do NOT have to forgive anyone for some heinous thing they DO TO you. Nope, just nope!
@Dori MD ♪ Forgiveness is ONLY for people who apologize and make major amends and promise never to do -blank- again. Then 'maybe' I might forgive someone if they really seem genuine. If they do the same thing again, then giant boundaries and zero forgiveness. Period. Forgiveness is NEVER for someone who doesn't apologize or makes amends. Ever. I follow the 'once bitten, twice shy' rule of thumb...
Especially when they are not even sorry for what they did to you!
SO MUCH THIS, JO!!
Being told I "have to forgive" legitimately enrages me. I am not obligated to give anyone a pass on bad behavior - EVER. The person who did something horrible doesn't automatically DESERVE my forgiveness. The whole idea that forgiveness is the only way to have peace or be whole again is, for me, complete crap. (Caveat, I am an athiest. So religion-based justification means nothing to me.)
Now IF it works for you - great. You do you.
I can get past what happened and learn what not to do and how much fault I may or may not have had in what happened. It doesn't consume my life after some time to analyze and therapy, if needed. I don't require forgiving someone else for me to move on and flourish.
Presenting forgiveness as the one true way to heal is toxic to a lot of people.
I see forgiveness two different ways. Attitudinal forgiveness has nothing to do with the offender. It is a matter of choosing not to hate, letting go of internal bitterness towards the offender. Wishing what is best for them. I ask myself, do I really wish this person ill? Do I hope he has pain and sufferings? Do I want some sort of revenge? If the answers are no. I know I've forgiven. I've released anger and bitterness towards the offender and put trust in justice, weather on this earth or in the afterlife. Justice will come to him. And yes, this is a process and sometimes must be done repeatedly over a long period of time. This kind of forgiveness takes place within myself and is not conveyed to the offender in any way. It's really none of his business. The second kind of forgiveness is transactional. It happens when an offender feels genuine remorse, apologizes, and then makes changes to his behavior that demonstrate this remorse. If, and only if, this happens, restoration of the relationship can start to occur...slowly and with boundaries that protect yourself. It is perfectly justifiable to forgive someone attitudinally, and never speak to them again because they have not changed enough to justify transactional forgiveness. Attitudinal forgiveness is for the physical and mental well being of the victimized because holding on to bitterness and hate is damaging to one's body and mind. It has nothing to do with any kind of conversation with the offender. This distinction has helped me to feel at peace with drawing boundaries when dealing with people who are not able to interact in a healthy way.
Forgiveness and acceptance are two different things. Forgiveness can only happen when repentance, change and restoration happens FIRST from the other person.
Bitterness is a tiny little seed that can take root and destroy your life. So many times religion gets caught up in the “rules” rather than the humans that we are. (And I love Jesus)
You are incredibly strong to have overcome the horrible things that have happened to you. You can now use your platform to help heal and help others heal and know how to live their best life. (You don’t have to use the word “forgiveness”) I’m sorry humans hurt you. Humans can be nasty monsters.
Well said.
Rules are what make religion. Without the strict rules you are free to pray and form your own relationship
@@truckingwithtramjam right. Religion gets caught up in rules making you “bad” or “good”. God called us to love. Not be the rule keepers.
@@EA5TVVOOD thank you
I hope I don't come across as antagonistic, though I'm curious- I've heard many christian teachers use similar wording as you in emphasizing what "humans" have done. I'm guessing to draw a distinction between individuals and Christianity or the Church or God. I've heard a lot of christians say that you can't blame the church for what humans have done and I do agree that humans can be nasty monsters. Yet I was raised believing that the Church isn't a building or even an institution, the Church is the people of which it's made. I don't mean to presume so many of your opinions from your short comment, but I am curious about your take. Is anger toward "the church," warts and all, ever warranted?
I was also in an abusive relationship. When I got out of it it took about 2 years to realize just how abusive and controlling it was and I was drowning in self loathing. I hated the girl - the literal CHILD - who "let" herself be victimized. It was a really dark time in my life. I haven't forgiven him, I don't know if I have it in me after everything that happened over those 7 1/2 years. But I've forgiven myself. I was the only person I needed to forgive to start feeling okay and begin healing.
I love how you articulated this. Forgiveness can be a wonderful, liberating, healing tool but it's not the most important or the only valid one and it's okay to not forgive the person/people who harmed you. It's okay to never forgive them. It's perfectly fine and okay to never offer them that forgiveness and move on with your life. I haven't forgiven the men who traumatized me, I don't think I ever will, but I've come to terms with that and I'm okay with it. That's what matters.
It sounds an awful lot like the people pushing you to forgive had their own guilt or denial or need to restore social harmony and were placing that burden on you. That instinct may have been useful in tiny isolated hardscrabble villages where disharmony threatened collective survival, but we can afford to be better.
ALSO, I have to add that premature forgiveness (whether as a reaction to pressure or not) can often be mistaken for a desire to not WANT to feel the emotional trauma of injury. That's physical, emotional, and/or spiritual injury. And invalidating emotions like pain, anger, outrage at indignity, etc. by shoving a garbage can lid on them and declaring instead that they've been evaporated by forgiveness only delays the emergence of those emotions later. YOU CAN'T LET GO OF WHAT YOU DON'T FIND IN YOUR POCKETS.
Having been through severe narcissistic abuse in the workplace and still working with some of the people who betrayed me and targeted me, I have learned that I need to focus on myself. Whether forgiveness comes in time is not my concern. I think sometimes it's easier to throw a blanket of mercy over a situation than to go through the healing process. Not that that is wrong. Sometimes, it's okay to just walk away. But eventually, we're going to have to deal with the trauma.
I can’t speak to abuse or any of that type of trauma, but I resolved to forgive the driver responsible for killing my daughter, pretty much the moment I heard about the accident. That doesn’t mean I actually forgave him right away, but that I intended to go through the process that would allow me to forgive him later.
Forgiveness requires genuineness, and you can’t offer that when you’re still hurt, confused, and reeling from the pain, etc; when it’s all you can do just to survive the next moment and take your next breath. No, I think forgiveness is something that can only truly be offered after you’ve had some time to process your pain and grief. I’ve also been taught the following from my previous church about forgiveness:
Forgiveness is personal and shouldn’t be coerced.
Forgiveness is a process, and your forgiveness sometimes needs to be revisited (something brought up in the video)
Forgiveness should never be publicly offered to an unrepentant offender. You should strive to forgive them in your own heart/mind, but to offer them forgiveness when they are unrepentant is most likely more harmful than good.
Forgiveness doesn’t remove the consequences of what the offender did. It won’t magically heal your hurts (it might help, though).
Forgiveness is more about you than it is about the offender. Holding on to bitterness and hatred toward another person is poison for your soul, ultimately.
Just because you forgive someone, that doesn’t mean you are required to make yourself vulnerable to be hurt by them again.
Scott, I’m so sorry for your loss. It feels almost empty to say that but I just wanted to at least say something.
@@dietcokewithcherry I appreciate that. It was several years ago, so it’s not a fresh trauma.
I'm so sorry you were pressured to do something so big so quickly without compassion for your pain and healing process. That wasn't right. Even in the community of faith, I think we sometimes forget that forgiveness costs the forgiver. What has been important for me to know is that forgiveness doesn't always mean reconciliation or restoration. It doesn't mean what happened was ok in any way. It also doesn't mean forgetting. To me it is deciding to stop swallowing poison and expecting the person who hurt me to be hurt by it. It is a very hard thing and something I struggle with from personal trauma every day. It is less a matter of that it is right to do it, for me, and more of a desire to expel the poison of hatred and hurt so I can heal. You're very right. It is a process, a choice, and nobody can tell you how long it will take. Be well, Jo 💜
I think the phrase about swallowing poison hoping it will hurt the other person is also toxic. It’s still putting pressure on yourself to forgive and to rid yourself of hurt and anger. There’s nothing wrong with allowing yourself to feel these emotions, it’s actually healthy! When you allow yourself to process those unpleasant emotions is when you can let them go naturally!
They're somethings I don't ever think I'll forgive, I just try to not dwell on them as there's nothing I can do about them and these people aren't worth my energy.
Something I have learned when explaining to my religious family my relationship to the other person who sexually assaulted me was that while I forgive (because I genuinely do) that doesn't mean there isn't consequences to what they did still. Forgiveness doesn't mean what happens disappears. It doesn't mean that something didn't happen.
Former Catholic, dealt with my own similar trauma. The most I had to forgive was myself, of feeling responsible for the situation.
That said, as a cross stitcher, I immediately laughed, because I know more people (myself included) that have stitched swear words than we have things about forgiveness, lol.
I’m so glad I’m not the only one who feels this way!
I haven't watched the video yet, I've only seen the title, and I'm already so relieved. I've been looking for years for a concise way to describe my view on forgiveness and "toxic forgiveness" is so, so perfect. Thank you for that. Now I'll actually watch the video.
Jordan the one issue you didn't address on forgiveness is forgiveness of one's self! Many people who have been victimized by others find blame in themselves! Many times this is unfounded, but the human mind isn't always rational after a traumatic event! I would challenge those who are suffering this to find forgiveness for themselves as soon as possible! This should hopefully help foster improved mental health and healing!
I felt this way after I was assaulted a few years ago. I felt like it was partially my fault because even though I had told the person no on several occasions, I should have limited contact with them as a friend much earlier. Thankfully, I was able to forgive myself pretty early in the process and recognize that the only person at fault was my assaulter, who chose to disregard my wishes and take advantage of me when I was vulnerable.
There are people I don't think I'll ever forgive. And that's okay! This is something I've been working on, understanding that I can't just forgive everyone.
Thank you very much for saying this! You have no idea how much it means for those of us who need to know that forgiveness is a choice. I have forgiven someone for assault and yet cannot forgive my parents for hurt that they caused me. Everyone is different and only the person wronged has the right to bestow forgiveness or not. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for this video! I feel validated
Forgive and forget? I am not that forgetful, despite my brain injury. And i rather get even than to forgive a missdeed ;)
And yes I am more of the old norse (populary called viking) mindset. ^^
A few years ago, I went to an Amanda Palmer concert for her There Will Be No Intermission tour, and she talked about being sexually abused by a boyfriend when she was a teenager. She then talked about how, years later as an adult, she received an email from him where he apologized for what he did and asked to be forgiven and she forgave him. This story was very upsetting and triggering for me because I had also been sexually abused as a teenager and I am not in a place to forgive him. I struggles with the concept of forgiveness a lot and I still do to be honest. For me, I think about letting go/working through trauma rather than forgiving the perpetrator. Especially since, like you said, there is nothing they can do or say to make what they did okay. But I also don't need to let the memory of what they did continue to hurt me all these years later.
That was a really dumb thing for her to do. For all she knows, it might have inspired him to try with her again. She should have ignored the email. That wasn't simply forgiveness, it was opening up the door to evil. But nobody knows the difference. They just know they have a social obligation to forgive to make everyone happy. It makes me sick thinking that she allowed this person back into her life to some extent, and that she relished it.
My experience is that certain people and groups use forgiveness to turn the tables and blame the victim. Someone hurt me deeply, in a very awful way, but then I was expected to forgive him instantly - and when I couldn't, suddenly *I* was the problem. The conversation moved from "I'm sorry he hurt you" to "you need to forgive him" to "it's a sin to not forgive". Instead of support, I received scorn because I had been traumatized. Now, I actually find peace in not forgiving. To me, it feels like giving forgiveness is giving a piece of myself, however small, to that person. When I acknowledge "I don't have to forgive this person and I won't", I can close the door without feeling like they took yet another piece of me. That's just my perspective, I understand that lots of people find forgiveness helpful.
I think forgiveness is a part of the healing process regardless. However, it's also very important to remember that forgiveness is not the same as excusing bad behavior. The harm they caused is valid and trust shouldn't just be given back as if they never did anything. Especially where crime is involved justice can be met with mercy but should still be served.
Regarding forgiveness, I feel defining terms in the discussion is CRUCIAL. For me, it entails ceasing to be actively angry. Similar to debt forgiveness, I cease to actively "collect" on my grievance by maintaining anger and a desire to actively collect on balancing the books of the injury. THIS IS NOT ABSOLUTION. It isn't pardon, it isn't saying no debt ever existed or that something isn't owed. I'm just personally not collecting, and it usually occurs when I understand why something happened. I'm not saying no debt ever existed, again -- just that neither my mind or spirit are actively attempting to collect. AND IT DOES NOT REQUIRE ME TO PARDON, ABSOLVE, OR ENGAGE IN ANY SOCIAL COMMUNION WITH THE PERSON, INSTITUTION, OR ENTITY INVOLVED.
I understand that, though I think of it more as acceptance. For me, I accept what happened so I can move on with my life and feel better. I don't do it for the other person; if it is something particularly bad, I don't think they deserve forgiveness.
I think we grew up in very different Christian circles, I can't imagine talking to someone about forgiveness right after they've gone through a traumatic event. that's a conversation for maaaybe a best friend for maaaaybe like months or years after the event. Yes its necessary, but its not easy and it definitely doesn't equal restoration. Its more of a release of anger/desire for revenge. Kind of like you said at the end.
6:00 really sums it up for me. You don't have to forgive anyone. You just need to move on. Not dwelling in hate is the most important thing to me. Abusive relationships automatically makes the abuser a bad person. Generally, there are bad people, grey people, and good people with bad moments but you don't have to keep going back to that event to categorise them to move on. You just have to focus on you.
To me, forgiveness to others is something that’s earned. Forgiveness to myself and the mistakes that I’ve made and the hurt that I’ve put myself through is much more important to me. Especially when going through trauma, a lot of times our brains think we could have changed what happened if only we had done x y or z. Forgiving myself for not doing that, for not knowing how to protect myself or not being able to is far more important than forgiving the people that have wronged you.
I feel this so hard. I was abused my whole childhood (in every way, but including rape) by my father until he decided to drop off the radar when I was 15 (only to reappear when I was 19) and the churchy people in my life absolutely prioritized forgiveness. When I finally revealed the extent of what had gone on with my father to Mom at about 18 she started taking me to counsellors... doing their on-campus practicum at a private Christian university campus. My first counsellors wanted me to forgive in order to heal. No! No, he doesn't have my forgiveness. I forgave myself of all the undue guilt I was carrying and over the years as I've grown and healed I've learned to thrive and be happy despite him. I no longer hate him, I'm not angry, but there will never be forgiveness. I'm not angry because he doesn't deserve that emotional energy and I can't change the past. I don't hate him because as someone who's gone on to study psychology and after hearing all the stories of his childhood come out of the woodwork I understand why he is the way he is and I actually pitty him. But I will never trust him again. I do not love him. I will never choose to be within a city block of him. He will NEVER, EVER meet my daughter. He has no right to have contact. I feel like forgiveness would open those doors he doesn't deserve access to.
I struggle with conversations around forgiveness because I have trouble understanding what people mean when they talk about it. I also grew up in a conservative church, and for them "forgiveness" was a "wipe the slate clean" kind of thing. It was inseparable from forgetting, as in "forgive and forget." I do not value that concept of forgiveness at ALL. Even a little bit. I mean, ok, with little things sure, we can make up and just put the whole thing behind us, but big things? Serious traumas? No way. If someone truly hurt me I will never wipe their slate clean, nor do I see any reason to do so.
But then, years after I left that church, I started seeing people talking about forgiveness as simply letting go of their own anger towards the person who hurt them. They will never forget it and it doesn't mean they are declaring it all to be ok, only that they are choosing to no longer carry that anger with them. And... I guess that makes sense? Like, as a thing to do? But I have a hard time parsing that as "forgiveness." Like, the way I wanted to type it was "they let go of their anger towards the person who hurt them, but they don't just forgive what that person did" which is confusing, because that's supposed to be a version of forgiveness. That said, I do think that letting go of anger can be a worthwhile thing to do, but only when you're ready to do it. Trying to force it doesn't help anyway.
I don't know if I'm adding anything with this comment, but I find the topic interesting. Thank you for making this video.
Miss Jo, I am amazed by your ability to speak about abuse. From one who has lived with much trauma and abuse. You have given me words and ideas that I cannot always know need to be shared in therapy. My own therapist does not push forgiveness ever. But is willing to talk about it if I bring it up. Like you I have days when my abuser should be xxxxxx and other days when I feel free from the harm done by my abuser. Please continue to share. Blessings.
The purpose. Of “forgiveness” is to say I will no longer be victimized by the person who harmed you. No one can say when you are ready to do that. Saying I forgive you to an abuser does not need to be said to anyone directly. It is said only where and when you want to say it. Forgiving does not entail forgetting or condoning the things done to to you. To often we give to much power to the perpetrator to continually make us his or her victim. Saying I forgive the person who hurt me takes back the power given the perpetrator. This is the way I was taught forgiveness works. Forgiving or not forgiving is a personal decision. No one should try to force it to happen. I hope that this helps you and the others understand forgiveness. In short forgiveness is a personal decision to permanently let yourself off the hook for what has been done to you. However no one can tell you when or if you should forgive and it is never easy to do. Stay happy and well Jo and the same to those commenters struggling with forgiving.
I always felt first, forgive yourself. In the sense of not blaming yourself for being the subject of abuse or trauma. Second, accept what the person did/occurrence happened. This act of acceptance does not equate it to permission or forgiveness. It allows you to not obsess, get into a tortuous loop, to move away from this "thing". This horrific thing, this person-monster, does not define YOU. As for forgiveness, that depends on so many factors. I agree with Jo, ultimately bestowing forgiveness is up to the person who experienced the trauma.
This video is so healing. I feel so similarly and appreciate the permission to not feel the pressure to forgive.
Because of the way my childhood trauma is I grew up to be a person who forgives everyone all the time and can't get angry at people. For me healing isn't about forgiving, it's about realizing when I don't want to forgive and allowing myself to feel angry and wronged
I love June's Journey - so absorbing and great if you suffer from anxiety!
It really is!!
I see where your coming from. I hear you hun. I was emotionally abused by my first husband he was an alcoholic and he passed 12 years ago on the 28th. I can tell you it still effects me. I think most people believe that its forgive and forget it happened. No not at all. Forgiving that person (for me) is remembering what happened but releasing the pain they caused. You can forgive A person and never actually speak to them or see them again. Its hard I don't always feel l succeeded in accomplishing the goal but that's my road you know.
Forgiveness is a very complex concept…but it is not about trivialising what someone has done to you or saying that it caused you hurt, it is not something that needs to be done publicly, it’s not about what others think you should do.
But I feel it’s a way to help let go of the hurt you have felt, by forgiving you are saying the hurt that someone has caused you will no longer affect my life, allowing you to start to heal, come to terms with what has done and is a way of distancing yourself from the person who caused you the hurt.
I've never been able to work out what the word "forgiveness" exactly means because so many people use it all the time and seem to mean different things. I think some people in the context of trauma and similar use it as a synonym for "no longer thinking daily about it", when I don't think it means the same thing at all. Then there are the people who use it to mean "no longer irrationally blaming *yourself* or hating *yourself*". It's just such a vague word.
I just want to come out of the woodworks to say: Thank you for saying this. Thank you for speaking out about this and sharing how this has effected you. The pressure of forgiveness for any and all trauma is so heavy and great that I have never been able to figure out how to explain this myself.
And, while we might be strangers, just know that I've been watching your videos on and off lately, and you've brought me a lot of comfort. Just know that I'm glad that you exist and I'm glad that you are here. Thank you. For everything you do.
Omg this spoke to me. You don’t need to forgive to heal like I so often hear
I found this video very comforting. I find that forgiveness can be a useful tool but to me, some things aren't forgiveable, there is a line. Have I forgiven the ex partner who frequently subjected me to physical and verbal abuse? Yes, because she shows remorse and it's helped me get passed it. Have I forgiven the men that broke into my house, damaged my property, confonted me in my bed and stole my car leaving me traumatised and financially compromised? No! I doubt they've shown a shred of remorse and three years later I'm still suffering the mental and financial cost of their actions and I don't believe forgiving them will help ease that. Another superb video Jo. Thank you x
Thank you! I was assaulted by a youth group leader in college, and forgiveness has been difficult for me.
THANK YOU so much for speaking about this. I have severe mental illness that has royally screwed up my life thanks to childhood trauma bc of maltreatment. The hyper focus on (abuser/perpetrator) forgiveness in the trauma recovery spaces/conversations makes me extremely uncomfortable and seems very toxic. And maybe like spiritual bypassing.
I am so sorry Jo that the church failed you and hurt you. I can relate. One thing that I have taken from my experience is that the church is not God. People who call themselves Christians and then do what he did are not Christians. We Christians want to help but many time we hurt by what we say to devastated people. May God comfort you and show his self to you.
I feel like I found your channel exactly when I needed it. Forgiveness hasn’t been talked about directly in my family much, but your video got me thinking about how much it was really pushed on me. It wasn’t a moral obligation; forgiving didn’t make me a good person. It was simply something I was SUPPOSED to do. I’m 29 years old and my parents are still pushing it. Just a week and a half ago, I had an exchange with my dad about it. He said that my grandma seemed sad that I don’t talk to her and he said the implication was that she knew she messed up but didn’t know what to do to make things right. I simply said “I don’t know if she can make up for a lifetime of horrible treatment.” That made my dad very angry because she never hit me, so I shouldn’t have any problems with her! I should forgive everything else! Hell, I never should’ve had issues with the other things to begin with. He would not drop it until I agreed that he was right and that I should fix my relationship with my grandma, so I left.
But that’s just the most recent example of me being expected to forgive people for anything and everything with no thought given to how I’m feeling or how/if I’m recovering. Your videos seem to speak to a lot of stuff I’m going through right now and I just want you to know that you’ve helped at least one person. You’ve helped me feel stronger in standing up for myself and understanding how to communicate certain ideas to others.
Thank you.
A very close friend of mine just sent the link for this video to me. I am pretty sure "forgiveness" has been presented to me in very similar/toxic ways. I cried watching this because I realized that that had been bad advice when I was told to and that I had been valid to feel hurt... So thank you for helping me realize I don't need to forgive those people for the truma they have caused me.
I'm now pushing that upon myself. So incredible what the society do to us.
Holy crap Footless Jo over here just sittin' down and talking about real life personal controversial big heavies to an unknown internet audience like that's just a thing a human person can totally do...
Which is totally is! And more folk seem to be doing so, and we as humans have this capacity, and that's great and everything but still * holy crap * sittin' in front of a camera and spitting those words out and uploading the darn thing and inviting discourse in UA-cam comments?!?!!?!
So badass.
I feel like the concept of forgiveness is important yet misunderstood especially in a religious standpoint. We want to be like god and god forgives all! But what a lot of religious people especially ones who haven’t gone through substantial trauma, forgiveness can take a heck of a long time to do so. Even if there is no forgiveness ever for something that’s ok too! We aren’t god, we are human!!
I’m glad to hear someone talk about this!! Thank you for the video!
After many years of having my mother in my life, because I was told she was different, and had grown, and changed, and that I needed to forgive her, and all the weird complex things around childhood trauma... I realized that I had never taken the time to ask how I felt. I had spent 25 years ignoring myself and my feelings. Realizing that I didn't have to forgive her was so freeing. Now she's not in my life. And I'm really glad.
I know this isn't what this video is about, but I just wanted to thank you for saying, "I was in an abusive relationship... that involved sexual assault." I've been in that place as well, but I've also had many abusive friendships that did not involve sexual or physical assault and the amount of people that recognize that kind of abuse is appallingly low.
Agreed. I've been in abusive friendships myself.
Yes!! Thank you for saying all of this!! I hate how people always say "forgiveness isn't for them it's for you" and I admit I still don't fully get that. I don't like forgiveness shaming, in that we are often pressured to forgive. We're led to believe this will instantly help us move on and make it all better. It seems like a band-aid in my opinion. I do believe certain things aren't forgivable, and if a person does something to you that's bad enough, you don't have an obligation to forgive them if you don't feel they are worthy or it's good for you either. I'm new here and I've been binging your videos at random for the past few weeks. I love what I'm seeing, so thank you!
I agree with you. I think the actual concept of forgiveness is also something that a lot of people don't actually really think about or analyze. As it has been explained to me, forgiveness is letting go and not letting whoever hurt you take up any more space in your mind. However, when someone has done something that has hurt you deeply, forgiveness is a tall order. I've never been assaulted or anything, but there are a couple of people in my life who have done some really bad things, things that other members of my family have urged me to forgive. It's a very difficult thing to forgive when the subject of your ire hasn't really had to much deal with any consequences of their actions.
Hello there, my lovely internet friend! Thanks for dealing with this topic. This is something I've struggled with growing up with abusive parents. I just wanted to share a few thoughts that have been helpful to me. Just FYI, I've chosen to remain Christian, but I'm not trying to convert anyone or anything and more power to all of you on your religious journeys!
In any case, the first thing that's been really helpful to me is thinking of forgiveness not as an emotional state but simply as giving up the right to vengeance. And that's not even to say giving up the right to all justice; only the right to do the same thing to someone else as they did to you. And, for what it's worth, that's how I interpret a lot of what Archbishop Desmond Tutu of South Africa (who did a lot of work building the country post-apartheid) writes about forgiveness. For him, it seems to simply mean not seeking to do the same harm to someone else as they did to you. Reconciliation is another question and another concept entirely.
Second, the famous/infamous (depending on your perspective) quote about forgiving your enemies "seventy times seven" times is in Matthew 18 (specifically, Matthew 18:21-22). In that very same chapter, just a few verses before, Jesus talks quite a bit more about how to deal with people who sin against you. And the conclusion, in Matthew 18:17, is that you can treat them "as a Gentile and a tax collector." That is to say, as someone who isn't a member of your community. So, like, don't do something crazy like behead them or anything, but you also don't have to interact with them. So, whatever "forgiveness" means in verses 21-22, it doesn't mean to act like nothing happened, because Jesus just said it was okay to cut them out of your life, even.
At least, these are my interpretations. My apologies if I got something wrong. But I hope this is useful to someone!
Holy crap. I've coined that very term myself. When I was a teenager, my brother was having violent rages on a regular basis. There were a range of reasons for this, none of which was caused by immediate family. When I confided in a friend's mother what was happening, she said "Have you tried forgiving him?" I was shocked. While he never actually hit me, he was damaging property and came close to hitting me on more than one occasion. I was scared of him. I hated the concept of forgiveness from that point on. Forgiveness isn't something you can just do if you're dealing with trauma. It takes time and healing.
On 15 March 2019 two mosques in my city were attacked by a white supremacist. 51 people were killed. In the aftermath of those events, a wise Muslim man who had lost his wife in the attacks spoke out about forgiving the shooter. He said that forgiveness was about not carrying anger and bitterness in his heart. For the first time in my life, long after I'd left evangelical Christianity, I understood what forgiveness was. When it was framed in that way, suddenly it got a whole lot easier to stomach. It can't be forced on a person to do. You have to get to it in your own time. It's not about giving the other person an excuse or an out. It's about healing. What evangelical Christianity had failed to teach me, this wonderful Muslim man taught me through his words in the media. Funny how that happens.
You help validate so many feelings that I have a hard time putting the right words together to say 💕
Forgiveness for me is about processing trauma. I cannot forgive until I allowed my body and mind to release it.
Releasing it is talking about it, writing about it, doing healthy physical activities. And if I have to, I walk through those memories and name what scared me the most, but also name the positives of that same time period to build myself up.
Like I stood up for myself, I said no, I chose to love myself first and do what is best for me. Things like that.
Forgiveness only comes after making peace.
Whoa!! I didn't realize this. While I have a lot (a lot, a lot) of issues with my own tradition, I was brought up with an emphasis on repentance, and forgiveness only comes into it when someone has truly repented, apologized and done some sort of repair. And even then, it is not a given that forgiveness can be or should be granted. And in no way is it anyone else's place to tell someone else how that person should deal with forgiving a situation in which they came to harm. For heaven's sakes! I mean - even a casserole is more helpful! (I come from a tradition where in practical, not necessarily theological terms, problems, stress and pain are solved with food).
Jo your right people can forgive or not forgive within there own time frame. You have nothing to be ashamed of or to feel guilty about. You were violated and hurt. No one has a right to do this to anyone. Even verbal abuse is wrong and can have a traumatic effect on someone. Your strong just like many people who have gone or going through abuse. It's good to hear you open up about it. Keeping it inside can tear a person apart. Everyone needs to vent and move away from abusive situations. I too am going through a similar situation.
Having grown up in an ultra-catholic environment forgiveness is a loaded word for me. It brings in religion and obligations. I like to use the term letting go. I am in the process of healing from the abusive childhood I had. Part of that healing involves letting go of the rage and horror and terror and despair. Language is a big part of this. I no longer refer to them as 'my abusers'. They're not mine, I don't want them any more. They are people who did unconscionable things to me and I am letting them go. Loved this video, love your channel.
I totally understand what you feel about forgiveness. Some people think that your just have to forgive to get better, calm your heart and be happy. But it's not so simple. I think, the most difficult thing to do but also the most important is forgive yourself. Obviously not about the fact or the situation because sexual assault is NOT the victim's fault but forgive yourself to have trusted, to have been vulnerable, careless, to have been in denial or traumatic amnesia. And, above all, forgive ourselves for the consequences it has on us and our current attitudes
Yes, forgiveness can be toxic!!
In my experience the following must be in place for forgiveness to make sense:
(if you still are around the person)
- BOTH parties must give FULL apologies with all bad actions fully admitted to and a promise not to do them again.
- You must believe that both parties can actually follow through--aka, they are not rigid/static people who cannot change.
- Both parties must wipe the slate 100% clean and never bring up past shit again.
(if you are no longer around them)
- SOMEBODY ELSE must acknowledge that the event actually happened to you
- You must feel like forgiveness will help YOU internally, not the other person, the world, god, etc.
I make the active choice to look at forgiveness as a double edge sword because you forgiving someone who hurt you could actually be setting up for them to hurt you again you don't owe it it's not a obligation I've been seeing a lot of shows recently highly forgiveness as a process!
I'm so happy you made this video because I hope it'll help people understand that they don't owe anyone forgiveness!
I was at one time an Evangelical Christian. So I know of what you speak.
For the last three decades, I have been an Orthodox Jew. We have a different view of forgiveness. During the High Holidays (which we just went through) you should go to anyone you have wronged, try to make it right if possible and then ask for forgiveness. So, if someone comes to you and asks for forgiveness and tries to repair the hurt, you are supposed to forgive them. But there are exceptions to this forgiveness.
I couldn't agree more with your comments.
I really needed to hear this and I thought I'd heard it all. Thank you. It's comforting knowing I don't need to forgive
Excellent topic and presentation Jo! I'm not religious and never have been but have had that (if you don't forgive, you aren't a good whatever) thrown at me occasionally. I don't worry too much about those situations. To me, the choice to forgive should be based on whether it will help me feel better and should never be an obligation. Over time, I've come to realize that 'just letting go' works well in most situations. If I can let go in a healthy way, then it won't bother me anymore. I have never called that 'forgiveness' though. There are a couple of people who will never be forgiven or let go. What they did was so far beyond any acceptable boundary, that it will never happen. That said, I don't carry around a bunch of anger or hatred toward them because that simply doesn't do any good - and it's unhealthy for me. They just won't ever be allowed to come back into my life in any way. I've been 'judged' for that by some friends and relatives, but to me that's their problem not mine. I know I've made the right decision for me. That's all that matters.
I am like you Jo. My father did a horrible thing to me last year and I really had to sit with myself and see things from his point of view a bit. I found the compassion to at least understand him. Some days I forgive him, and some days I do not. I was ill over christmas and he contacted me because he found out about it. I was civil to him, but even though in some ways I forgave, I can never forget. He wanted me to, but I can't.
Jo you are surrounded by people who love you, take all the time you want.
luv
Thank you for this. I was assaulted twice (more really for not being able/capable of saying no) and I struggle so much with the concept of forgiveness. Especially the Lord’s Prayer - I feel like weeping whenever I say it or think about it.
But I’m also guilty of caring around grudges towards people, specifically around money lent, that I wish I could forget and forgive - as I know I’ll never see that money again, despite needing it now.
I’m also carrying so much hurt from other people. My best friend at the time was friends with my second assailant and tried to talk me out of pursuing it with the police. She’s since broken off our friendship for a comment I made publicly about that and all the police reports I had to file on top of the rape for witness tampering.
Now I sit in this hole that I seem to have dug for myself, afflicted by multiple chronic conditions and limited social interaction and don’t have anyone to call my best friend (other than my husband, who is also my carer) and feel so alone. I’m not an amputee, but have fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue syndrome, liver disease (not from alcohol) plus many more.
Your videos cheer me on and also force me to realise how much I’m missing as I am a slave to my conditions.
Having been subject to significant trauma and abuse myself I've also had to walk this road myself. Something that I have found important for myself is to understand and realise that forgiveness is for me not for those who have contributed to trauma and abuse. Forgiveness for me is about letting go of the need to get even or seek revenge. It doesn't have to be voiced to the person who had wronged me and there is zero need for me to like / respect / frankly to have anything more to do with that person in the future, those things are independent of forgiveness and need not figure into it.
Forgiveness is our act of giving up revenge, not forgetting. Forgetting is a separate act. I was molested when I was seven years old and raped when I was 10. My stepfather sometimes beat me to unconsciousness. My first wife was physically abusive and knocked me down a number of times. I have given up my right for revenge of those people. I have not forgotten what they did to me and I understand it is not safe for me to be around them. Those are two different things. Just because you forgive doesn’t mean you forget. The issue that happened once I for gave them was that though I remembered what was done and realize it’s not safe to be around them those things didn’t dominate my days. So in the long run it helped me.
I’m glad you’re going to therapy to get help. That’s what I did and I found a therapist who helped me out quite a bit. For that matter they’re still helping me out with dealing with over 26 years of Parkinson’s symptoms.
I wish you well.
The way I take it: You can't erase the pain or what you (or others) have done, but little by little you can try and out-way the bad with the good. It's a way to move on, forgiveness or not.
I am sorry you went through that. Sadly, churches are often a place where predators are given unfettered (and even praised) access to vulnerable people.
In my own case, I sought help from a church I trusted at a difficult time in my life. I didn't think I had problems with forgiveness because forgiving was something that was easy for me to do. I didn't realize how my quickness to forgive and overlook things actively harmed the people I care about the most. God took us through a rough time and we have learned a lot about how predators get away with abuse. We confronted some of the people we thought we friends when we had concerns but we were "encouraged" to not ask such questions and a pastor I had sought help from even expressed "shock" and "how dare you" accuse such "stalwart men of God" of covering up some absolute evil. After that I can no longer simply trust that any church is just trying to do their best, nor is it wise to ever seek help from a church again.
However that doesn't mean I don't believe in God and that He is good, just that I can see a little more personally how easy it is for good to become corrupt, and how humble people can quickly become prideful and deceived.
I’m obsessed with your lip and eye color. It’s very flattering on you!
Awww thank you so much!!
I was bullied for six years from first grade to sixth grade. While all of the boys from my class took part in it to some extent (from laughing along, poking me with pencils, insulting me, making fun of me, stealing my stuff, etc.) there was this one boy who was the main bully, the worst one of the bullies. The bullying ended when we all had to change schools for seventh grade since our school only had the first six grades because that boy was not in my class (I specifically requested that he would not be in my class since we got to make requests about who we wanted in our class. I think it was two people who you wanted and didn't want).
Years later I have not forgiven that boy. You know why? Because I'm still struggling with the results. I'm still struggling with my self-worth and image. I'm still dealing with insecurity and self-doubt. I'm still struggling. It's not like I hate that boy or want him to suffer. I just don't want him in my life since all those years of bullying make being around him uncomfortable and awkward. If we came across each other on the street I would walk past him without a second cleanse (partially because he would not look like my bully since he would be an adult man). Another factor is that I never got a genuine apology from him. Sure I got those "teacher made me apologize for this" apologies that did not mean anything since he would just continue doing the things he apologized for doing in the first place. The fact that I had to say that I forgave him even when I didn't, made me mad. Why should I forgive him when he doesn't regret doing it and just keeps doing it again afterward?
You are not obligated to forgive someone. Whether they regret it or not, whether they apologize or not, it does not matter. You can live your life without forgiving someone that harmed you. As long as you don't spend every single moment of your remaining life sheading in anger and hatred because someone harmed you, you're good. There is nothing wrong with not forgiving someone. No one is entitled to your forgiveness. Forgiving someone is your choice and no one else has any say in it.
Thank you, the word forgiveness is synonymous for me with other abusive buzzwords because its only ever been presented as a dismissal of my pain,
I don't want to forgive my abusers for what they did to me, I suffer no years later and will go on suffering for the rest of my life, I'm sick of people siding with my abusers by demanding forgiveness play a part in my healing journey, I don't WANT to forgive them until they EARN my forgiveness
I agree with you 100%. Many people just care about how they look in front of their church buddies. They want to look as much alike as how they picture a saint or at least have the people percieve that.
My father always managed to look like a saint in church while taking everything from his wife and children during their divorce.
I personally don't care about wether he is forgiven by anyone or not.
I personally completely eliminated him from my life and can live perfectly with that. No need for further thoughts.
I grew up with an alcoholic father and a codependent mother. It took my mother 17 years to finally leave my father. He wasn't abusive towards us because he would be dead (my mother's words) if he ever laid a hand on us. But his alcoholism definitely left a mark on us. The day that my mother left him, we were coming to our old place to pick up some of our stuff to bring to our new place, but when we got there, my dad was drunk. My mother told him that she was done, he was not moving with us. She even mentioned that he broke my sister because of this because my sister didn't want to loose him. It hurt because, my mother knew that I was hurting too because of him, but whatever.
She has asked if I would ever forgive him and I always say no because I am done with him taken advantage of me forgiving him and pull another drunken stunt.
Thinking about this often makes me feel selfish because everyone says that I should forgive him, but I can't trust that after I forgive him that he will get better. I don't even know if I want to forgive my mother because she stayed with my father for years even though I begged her to leave him because his drinking was hurting all of us.
Thankfully, she finally left him, but just the thought of forgiving him makes me feel angry. Being told that I don't need to forgive him because it is MY choice, makes me feel a little bit better.
I cut contact with my abusive family in early 2020. The lifelong abuse they put me through permanently interfered with my brain development and also set me up for future abusive situations. I was abused by one person I ended up engaged to, and later on married a different person who I didn't even realize until years later was also abusive (because relatively speaking, it wasn't "as bad").
I will never forgive any of the abusive people I was in relationships with, nor will I ever forgive my parents. I've been asked "What if they self-reflect and feel genuine remorse and change into better people? Wouldn't you want a relationship with your parents then?" The answer is always no. Even if somehow they became completely different people than they've been my entire life, it's too late. I already tried reconciliation many, many different times, and they had zero interest in anything other than making excuses and blaming me for being hurt and "unable to let go of the past."
None of them deserve forgiveness from me. None of them can take away the harm they inflicted or the damage they caused. I have no ability to reduce future harm they might cause others either. That part is hard to live with. It's painful. But I also don't need to forgive myself. I didn't set myself up for the situations I ended up in. I didn't know at the time that I deserved more respect than I was getting, that I deserved to be treated well by those who chose to have me special in their lives without that better treatment being an apology for violent anger. It's not my fault I didn't know either. I am not to blame for being abused, so there's nothing I need to forgive myself for there.
I actively hate the idea of forgiveness because the meaning is vague and changes person-to-person. I won't forgive myself for being harmed. I'll instead learn how to heal and grow and better protect myself in the future. I'll learn how to grieve and work through grief. I'll learn how to love myself as I am now, not based on what my past contains.
There's no need to call any of that forgiveness though. It's a lot better to just say what I mean.
One thing I wish people would know is forgiving doesn't always mean forgetting.
My dad emotionally abused me, and those memories are not ones I can get rid of because they had too big of an impact on me.
What I feel forgiveness is is being willing to move on from that hurt and/or set it aside.
And like you said, there is no timeline for reaching that point.
I think you touched on this if I understood you properly-- Because of how obligatory and urgent forgiveness was in the Christian circles I was raised in, I now struggle to understand what genuine forgiveness even is. There were so many times I just "forgave" someone reflexively, whether it was a huge or tiny offense. It never really felt like I chose forgiveness. As a result, I'm not sure what choosing forgiveness actually looks like. You mentioned the idea of researching forgiveness- have any recommendations?
Forgiveness often comes much later (years, possibly decades later in some cases), and after you have properly honored other emotions.
I fully agree that forgiveness is a tool of healing for the victim, not a "get out of jail free" card for the perpetrator. Sometimes i feel like forgiveness may not even be the best word, but for me it's about being able to move on and live your life without constantly feeling and being stuck in the hurt that was caused. Being able to leave what happened in the past but still never forgetting it and the lessons you learned from that experience so that it hopefully never happens again. You are also never obligated to voice your forgiveness to the person that hurt you. You can choose to if you think it will help you but you should be er be forced to because again, it should be for you and not for them.
Wow thank you, I have been struggling to forgive some one who really hurt me.
It was as if I could not move on. However now I can simply move on to more important things to me. Thank you.
For me, the struggle is forgiving myself for being hurt and having PTSD and forgiving the people, friends, loved ones, who, while well-intentioned, made that worse. If forgiveness means that I won’t feel hurt any time I’m reminded of what they said or did, then, I’m not sure if I’ll ever be able to forgive them. If it means continuing on in my relationship with them, in spite of that hurt, then, yes. Feelings aren’t a choice, how you reach to them is.