Lost LETHAL Japanese Jujutsu submissions (Jujutsu 1913)
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- Опубліковано 5 вер 2024
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Great video! Even though I spent a lot of time translating each page, your commentary is an excellent overview of what is in the book, so I found it quite interesting.
Which book?
I first studied Judo in the early 1960's and many of these techniques were taught by my Japanese sensei in NYC. At age 13 I spared with a WW2 Marine Corps veteran. It was his first day back on the mat since his service. I stepped in for a throw and found myself on the "torture rack" with a hand chop headed for the front of my neck. I blocked it, he pushed me off his leg, apologizing profusely. It was a flashback to hand to hand combat in the Pacific. He bowed off the mat and never came back.
It's too bad that he didn't come back, but as a son of a war veteran I can understand why. He was probably worried that he would accidentally kill or permanently injure you or someone else.
@@wendellbenedict4793 Exactly! He also told us he never went into a bar or any situation that could result in a tussle. Right after his WW2 discharge he did injure someone severely in a bar fight, but fortunately for him, it was self defense and didn't go beyond the policeman telling him to get out of there! Law enforcement was different in NYC in the 1940s.
@@arnoldcohen1250he was daydreaming then,no enlisted men would have received enough unarmed training to be effective.
@@scarred10 I wasn't clear. He had been a career marine, mostly stationed in the Pacific region and was a Judoka long before the war started. He was in the equivalent of marine recon with extensive combat experience (probably the reason for his lasting and dangerous reactions). So, he wasn't your usual enlisted man. I hope this fills out the story for you.
Some of this is true ancient Jujutsu which the samurai's would have used on the battlefield to end their opponents.
If just highlights the difference between watered down sports combat and battlefield techniques.
Thanks for your work, Chadi. I appreciate your open mindedness and thoughtful research into the traditional arts. Many people have gotten trapped in the mindset that modern MMA is the ultimate study for all applications.
MMA sparring is absolutely necessary for effectiveness, whether you use sport or these classical jujitsu techs but you'll find these almost impossible to do on a trained opponent for the simple reason they were never sparred with.The reason for the mma mindset surge is 27 yrs evidence of non sparring arts not working.
Only some people, the rest of us know better. Good luck with your practice.
Laoshr 60
Ching Yi Kung Fu Association
@@scarred10 Oh, it's the old "Everyone who doesn't do MMA doesn't spar" fallacy again. And, what does "doesn't work on a trained person" mean?
@@cyberserk5614 I never said do mma,I said spar mma rules,ie full contact all takedowns allowed and striking on the floor,this is as close as you get to real life.A trained person is someone who actually goes full force in sparring and can grapple.
Those techniques are not lost, they're currently used in training special forces with some adaptations for being more effective.
Hi Chadi....the "torture rack" technique is often demonstrated in military hand to hand combat manuals especially WW2, i believe this technique is in some of William Fairbairns books.
Thanks for posting another very informative video.
Train hard....fight easy
Best regards
Stefano.
Do you know if it was shown in movies too?
@@shokkerkhan5758 Hi Shokker Khan......it may have been used in one of the John Wick films but i am not sure?
@@shokkerkhan5758 I believe that Chuck Norris did it in the movie Delta Force 2, but I could be wrong since it has been many years since I watched it.
Fascinating! Sometimes I wonder just how much of the 'new' self-defense and sport techniques we see these day are really just old forgotten work being re-discovered.
Same.
I do think with the advent of the internet & with the popularity of grappling that there's new things being invented.
Back in the 90's before the UFC is when I started & after grappling exploded onto the world I'm seeing new things that have to be new.
My former teacher Kyu Ha Kim always said to master the basics. There's truth to that but imo there's mastering things NOBODY else understands that goes far.
Master the basics for street fights & defense.
Move onto advanced grappling for other grapplers.
I'm a judoka & these moves are all shown in modern judo.
Crazy to think these moves go this far back.
I haven't done judo in a while, but I've moved to more of an mma submission grappling style.
I learned tgis in hapkido. But in my bjj / judo training its extremly fround apon.. is the scissor leg take down.. i know dannaher spoke on it.. but I love the take down.. buts its extremly hard to train live... where their any standing locks or throws like the scissor take down considdered deadly.. i love these old videos.. great content ..
When I trained Capoeira We did scissors all the time, even there is a correct way to fall to not break a leg. Never seen a capoeira fighter break a leg with this technique.
ua-cam.com/video/DMT0NrFayYc/v-deo.html
You can train the scissor takedown, but for safety, make sure your uke's legs are in a relaxed posture so they dont get injured on the takedown.
@@dianecenteno5275 Exactly!
Ura Jime at 6:15 I never saw in BJJ but learned it in a Hapkido article in a mag...
Bah, we use kani basami all the time in sparring and randori. As long as you have both a grip on uke, and a post on the floor, it is perfectly safe. Certainly as safe as any other throw done against a resisting opponent. It is when you leap into the throw, and uke's legs are bearing most/all of your weight that it becomes very dangerous.
Great content as always Chadi, I am looking forward for more JJJ content
If you're looking for "lost" submission, etc. I've got plenty of recorded techniques for you to look at if you're interested.
@@skurt3637 Still uploading but got plenty more to come.
ua-cam.com/users/KyushinRyuSchoolofJujitsu
@@kyle9648 if you really make videos about these lost subs I will watch them all!
@@justafloridamanfromthe75thRR if you look up Kyushin Ryu School of Jujitsu on UA-cam. Thats where the videos are uploaded
As always, very informative and sobering regarding the power of martial arts in actual situations.
The Ashi Yori looks like a Texas cloverleaf from a less optimal angle. The breaking mechanisms are that of a calf slicer, where you use their own shin on the other leg to slice the calf. This is usually done from honey hole, which allows you to really apply your back into the submission.
I was about to say the same
Me*looks at dummy*
Dummy*starts sweating*
Thank you for sharing.
🤙🏻
The torture rack look like a move in pro wrestling called the BACK BREAKER. Plus I see moves that resemble the fujiwari armbar , full boston crab,HALF/SINGLE LEG boston crab, etc. So it definitely a possibility that catch wrestling borrowed from japanese jujutsu which then went into pro wrestling. And yes pro wrestling also used the armbar(also called the cross armbreaker). I do know that they also used the sleeper hold. Which was used in american catch wrestling while british catch wrestling GENERALLY forbid choke.
Brother your channel is awesome.. I been a subscriber the very first time I watched two of your videos. Good research, awesome sources, very consistent and along the lines of what I would think Kano would like, very academic…. Good job Brother.. I try to order all of the books you recommend…💪🏾
Can you share the old footage you were playing in your presentation as part of the links down below ?
I learned daki kubi as a kid but we addinionally jammed our fist in the collar to block the artery more effectively. It makes it kinda safer since the opponent taps faster or goes to sleep before damage to the neck. I also learned yubi zume but by wrapping the thumb around the foot and compressing the metatarse into a medio-lateral arch you decrease the leverage needed for a break. Great vid as usual.
Koshi Hishigi is the Backbreaker Stretch
That was EXACTLY what I was thinking.
Oh my god! haha Most of those techniques are so dangerous that I understand why the japanese at the time of birth of kodokan didnt want nothing to do with jujutsu haha. Kano-shihan was really smart in changing the the techniques and name of his art.
100%
The techniques are only dangerous if practiced in competitions or Randori, don't think dangerous think effective
There is a difference.
Thanks Chadi
Best regards,
Stefano
Great video as always Chadi ! These are very dangerous techniques indeed
The “Ashy Yori” is used in BJJ. My gym is primarily a No Gi competition gym that focuses on MMA. I am only a mid level BJJ blue belt and am no expert in leg locks. Now we were training a few positions that end up in a similar situation as this “Ashy Yori” position. A clear modification from the one in the photo that we do is to move more over to left hip and bring the right heal over on the hip of the opponent and bring the knee in. That will lock the position. Now for submissions there are multiple options from this position: one is the straight ankle lock with the top leg, a calf slicer from the bottom leg on the top leg, and the heal hook. I’m sure there are more. We have a few high level brown belts that are down right thugs at catching these submissions from this exact position. Sometimes they just make it there goal in life to setup this situation up and exploit it as often as possible. I believe this position is referred to as “the honey hole” in the BJJ / MMA community.
This is the real jujitsu from the Japanese.
I train in Taijutsu founded by Maasaki Hatsumi and we train in Takagi Yoshin ryu Jujutsu
Glad you went over this. After I read it, "Enma, Lord of Hell" was my favorite move in the book.
Excellent efforts on your part. You are always distinguished in your choice and in the topics presented, in addition to the professional people you choose. I wish you success. You are a legend
🙇🏻♂️
@@Chadi Does this book have any throws not existing in Judo?
7:12 I think this move explains one technique bunkai in Heian Godan. Great material. Thank you.
Ashi Yori is a heel hook, this type of heel hook without the gable grip was very popular in pancrase. Back in the 90s the standard grip wasn't the gable grip, people did all sorts of stuff. You grab the foot and twist it but you also use you hips to twist. To understand the difference between this heel hook and a toe hold you'll have to do it yourself because it's hard to explain
The heel hook and toe hold are nothing like each other ,toe hold is a pure twisting ankle lock and heel hook is a twisting kneelock.
@@scarred10 the toe hold attacks the knee as well and the heel hook also attacks the heel and the knee.
@@hasanc1526 toe holds cause sprained ankles,not knees and heel hooks always the knee is injured.You cannot attack the heel because it's not a joint ,the ankle is the joint.
@@scarred10 you're clearly a beginner, you can literally break knees with toe holds and BREAK ankles with heel hooks
@@hasanc1526 I'm an orthopedic physician Associate who began grappling in 1995.You will virtually never see a fractured knee or ankle from any leg lock,torn ligaments is the injury.
Ashi yori looks like a less effective variation of the leg smash in the saddle. It is set up as they defend the heel hook. It's a heel hook/knee bar/calf smash combo
All these techniques were part of Japanese Koryu techniques which were actually used in warfare, so to brush them off as useless is madness. They were pressure tested in battle and are both effective and deadly.
I'd say they're mostly useless
and there is no evidence they were ever used successfully in battle. How often are you going to be without at least a knife in those situations. I dont believe they sparred either a whole lot,kata would be more likely.
@@scarred10 It is hard to corroborate evidence that specific technoques were ever used in battle and to reflect on how such techniques were practised; here, the training techniques of the classical ryu as practised and preserved in Japan today might help: a mixture of kata and randori.
It is ironic that, as a modern audience, we try to apply a modern understanding to a historical paradigm: we know that these battles were not streamed on multimedia global platforms to audiences, nor were there judges marking and awarding victories...indeed, there were no referees to intervene, nor commentators, nor the media circus to analyse the application of strategy and techniques. Instead, within battles, we would expect that there were numerous unwitnessed hand-to-hand combat actions where only survival would have likely been recorded. The pictures here do not show the participants in Japanese armour but instead show applications in a Meije-era gi, so how can a modern audience make judgements on the effectiveness of a battlefield technique removed from its specific situation?
More importantly, I doubt that any ryu would have kept such techniques if the technique had no practical function, even during periods of relative peace in Tokugawa-era Japan.
However, the accounts of Japanese battles do suggest warriors able to resort to unarmed techniques when facing both armed and unarmed opponents. How far these techniques, as presented here, are removed from the actual techniques is a moot point: techniques adapted for training are often differentiated by requirements for progression in skill level within the ryu, with the techniques used in battle representing the highest and ultimate level of skill.
@@scarred10 You seem to be arguing this over and over. Tell me: if the techniques were useless, and never used in battle... why did they exist then, in your mind?
@@hardcaliber19 tradition that was never challenged,why do you think useless arts still exist now.The moves are just theory that worked in katas.In battle they used weapons and brawling like in the early mma most likely,all the kata out the window.
@@scarred10 Ahh, I see now. Brainwashed by mma.
Go find the video where Brian Stann and Gabriel Gonzaga went and trained with the marines. Watch the section where these famous mma fighters tried to run the marine gauntlet. They were "killed" over and over by smaller, weaker marines. Simply because they tried to apply their mma fighting skills in what amounts to a battlefield environment.
You have no knowledge; you're just guessing. And your guesses and assumptions are obviously tainted by your modern biases.
The samurai had hundreds of years of actual battlefield experience to figure out what worked and what didn't. I don't buy for a second that "useless" techniques survived for centuries simply for the sake of tradition.
You are just looking at this through the lense of modern cage fighting. Because something doesn't work well as a "submission" does not mean it doesn't work.
Shinya Aoki vs. James Wisniewski. Please go see what a standing joint lock does to someone in an mma context. That is a simple waki gatame, and it basically ended Wisniewski's career. No chance to tap. Just instant, grievous bodily injury.
The range, context, and rule set of modern mma has nothing... NOTHING... to do with the realities of warfare. You can't circle around outside fighting range, sizing up your singular opponent, looking for openings on a battlefield. Attacks were committed, singular strikes which either succeeded and killed/maimed your target, or you were likely killed or maimed yourself. As such, the techniques and strategies were very different.
If you want to argue that certain techniques are *impractical* in single unarmed combat, particularly in a sportive context, I'm all in for having that discussion. But arguing they are "useless" and "don't work" is silly, reductive, and simply comes from a lack of knowledge.
Ashi Yori is mechanically the same as a Texas Cloverleaf. Still fairly in common in BJJ and CW, it breaks the knee like a knee bar with rotation, and is very painful because Uke's knees are grinded together
Thank you
I do agree that such techniques aught to be used sparingly. And should not be used in competition. However the military must train in these aspects unarmed combat as it would insure personal survival. Thank you Chadi for sharing your wisdom. 👊👍
5:55 It is the "leg lock # 4" in the video game WWE SmackDown! Here Comes the Pain. The breaking mechanism is like twisting a bunch of spaghetti sticks.
Great video Chadi. Very informative. As always.
ive seen daki kubi used in mma, if you look up kim couture vs sheila bird on youtube you will see this submission
3:48 I keep forgetting that you're actually being funny from time to time. This made me giggle😁
Excellent video! Thanks for sharing...
Peace and harmony,
Sensei Maharaj 😊
Thank your for your work.Your channel is one the best, on wrestling topic
Always Excellent Chadi and I'm waiting for YOUR book .
Great job as always! Thank you!👍💮
4:15 The Camel Clutch. I said it before. The most important person in martial history is Vince McMahon. He preserved so much of martial knowledge.
Carlos Gracie was actually very fond of the camel clutch, it features heavely in old time GJJ promotional photos and videos
Very interesting video. I know it's still practiced, but I've almost considered JJJ to be a "lost" martial art because of the popularity of BJJ. There are some very interesting and unique submissions in this martial art that I feel would work just as well, if not better, in MMA than BJJ especially since it's not really used in modern MMA fighting so many people wouldn't know what was happening or think of how to defend against those submissions. Somebody with a black belt in JJJ who also knows at least the defense side of standard BJJ could be an extremely successful submission fighter in modern MMA competition.
excellent video !!
Thank you
Definitely going to show this to my professor.
Thank you Chadi. I'm always grateful for what you do for the martial arts community. It is now 2022 and I wonder if the Dragon Scrolls have been translated? What is contained within them, do you know?
Peace.
I have learned almost all of those techniques in my judo training. My judo sensei have teached those moves as part of "daito ryu aikijujutsu".
Most of judo sensei claims judo is a improved jujutsu, but to me sounds more like judo as the sport competition system (rules, philosofical background and graduation) and jujutsu as the proper technique
Even the "jutsu" word meaning "technique" in japanese always sound me in this way.
Lost forbidden deadly jiujitsu techniques=catch wrestling
I was just about to say. Jujutsu was pretty much like wrestling before judo came along. Because they didn’t use gi in Jujutsu.
Been wondering why there was no straight ankle lock with the figure four being taught in my BJJ academy. Now I know why. Thanks
The modern version of the toe hold is more effective, because the ankle is weaker to the side than the top
@@kempbrown4402 that’s true. But different positions offer different entry’s. I’m going to try and work in this into maybe a transition from a scramble or a position to rotate into something else from
Because if you've ever tried it you can feel how weak it is
@@user-nb8dm1gz2t what do you mean if you ever done it before? How can you prove this week?
Great job chadi
"Lost LETHAL Japanese Jujutsu submissions"
Can't be lost I seen it on tv.....
Ashi Yori is a leg lace
We do the neck twist in a self defense technique in Kenpo karate lol.
We also do the torture rack in a self defense technique. As well as the back breaker.
We also do the ura jime lol
Very interesting martial arts coverage,and commentary.Self defense, and battlefields differ.Who is the referee?
Learnt all of these in my traditional jujutsu classes
Reminds me the old shin gin Hawaii jujitsu submit w intent 2 kill .... o cobra kai no mercy
Excellent research 👌
Thank you
Ooh, that Koshi Hishigi! That is only for fighting Batman.
music reference: RŮDE - Eternal Youth
4:36
i tried googling this and nothing relevant came up!
I don't see how this can do anything before the person fights out of it! if you drop someone on your knee like that fine (assuming your bone doesn't break under their weight)! that doesn't sound like what is happening here!
There was a "teacher" in Greece that liked very much Kubi hineri and one day he killed one of his students! Ofc he went to jail for life but I ain't sure if the parents of the kid took revenge?! That was in the 90s era if I ain't mistaken..
I really like Japanese jujutsu and I like to see more
im definitely trying the knee on neck to scissor-wristlock on the mean purple belt at BJJ tonight.
Most of these techniques look like old pro wrestling holds. I wonder how much was shared between old catch and jujutsu and how much was developed independently?
YES !!
0:33 On the cover, bottom right. I just Googled standing triangle choke.
Bellator MMA Moment: Jessica Eye's Standing Arm Triangle Choke
I remember learning se shigi and kubi hineri. Most of my classmates didn't want to learn.
Locks 1, 2 and 4 are still used really commonly
Some of theese are not lost,just very hard to apply
exactly, probably the reason why they sort of faded out of mainstream. In theory they work but in practice, probably not as realistic to get.
@@Polentaccio you are aware that all these techniques are exactly the same and catch wrestling. Jujutsu looked like wrestling back then. Why do you think they look so similar?
bro the walls of jericho 6:19
Also known as the (FULL) BOSTON CRAB. There is also the SINGLE LEG/HALF boston crab(also known as the canadian maple leaf). A move(single leg boston crab) by Lance Storm who was a student of the HART FAMILY who knew CATCH WRESTLING. And I did see a single leg boston crab in the video also.
Quite a few of these are still in regular use in BJJ
Those still practice in right places.
Yes they sure do, we practice the majority of what was shown
@@eddiewilliamsmentalist cool. Could it be seen somewhere?
@@vano-559 yes, we train at Dyserth in North Wales UK. our lineage goes back to Gungi Kouzami and Yukio Tani. unfortunately you will never see our work on any social media only by turning up would it be seen
I attend bjj classes like for a year and some months now, im a white belt, so im pretty noobie but this submissions although pretty painful seem not practical. I mean why would you use a boston crab style submission having so many better choices from that position (may be it works better with people using armor? XD), the same thing with that abductor choke :S i know an almost identical submission but you even have to use one hand to reduce the space to be effective. Please enlighten me! do someone manage to do something like this?. All the standing ones seems sick though and the toe hold is a classic at higher belts XD
Se Hishigi is a rougher version of the Camel Clutch.
please comment on the judo olympics. Perhaps you could do like a voice over narration or a "react video".
is that guy on the cover doing the cobra clutch
You can find just as much ground techniques in Aikido, Aiki jujutsu, and Hapkido as in other koryu jujutsu. At the end of the day, they are all self defense techniques practiced in kata-format. Wrestler crushes all in less than a minute.
Not necessarily
@@josephyepez1896 it is true. All these arts do not have the realistic ground fighting format. Also they practice their grappling techniques in kata-like fashion.
@@alter5057 not all of them. You’re speaking, like you understand the martial art better than most people. You actually don’t. And what’s sad is that you like the evidence to prove your point.
@@Shadowrulzalways what I said is a fact, and anytime you look up a real japanese jujutsu, koryu jujutsu i mean, not those punching/kicking grappling sport jujitsu made in the west, you will understand what I mean.
Yes you would use these lethal techniques in a life and death fight,,,I trained in kodokan ju jitsu for 30 years,,,and we teach these self defense lethal techniques. I was also a police officer and we have lethal techniques that we can use to stop a suspects deadly actions.
You better realize it’s a dangerous world out there and that you may have to disable or use lethal force to stop the suspects deadly actions.
Techniques worked, hence they were passed down
Kubi Hineri 首捻りが危険すぎる⚠️😱
Ran out of dudes willing practice with.
I was about to say something about George Floyd and the Hiza Jime, but it's best to keep quiet. It's a hornet's nest.
For Chadi's sake, no!
You basically did mate... lol
Did the dude pass out?
Banned in Judo perhaps. In Ju Jitsu we teach self defense. All of these are open game in my school. On the street you do what you need to in order to stop the fight.
Probably not that effective but I am guessing Ashi yori is an attempt to push up from the heel while you push down on the top crossed leg in order to stress the ankle over the bottom leg shin bone. So a compression submission sort of deal with the possibility of popping the ankle when done fast. In practice though... probably not happening. A lot of it does look like catch though. The more I learn and see, the more I like catch to be honest. The emphasis from getting off your back as fast as possible and controlling from the top is not a bad habit to have.
A lot of these are pulled off in bjj
se hishigi is the camel clutch, ura jime is boston crab.......i knew all those moves were real
Looks like Hapkido
I kind of use the shrimp choke
Bjj is like Tkd. In it for the money
are you French bro?
I believe he is, mentioned it in a live chat if I recall.
8:30 ???
Brucelee move
Lol, any choke is lethal if you do it long enough. 🤣
Real jujutsu from Japan only to destroy the body. Not watered like Brazilian if it qualifies as war technique. I trained for 15 years and I was always invited to train with bjj and always was told I couldn't think ankle of wrist or choke. These guys always want to roll. I was training in jjj to start punching and using knives, weapons. I stopped training with these Brazilian people that just cared about the money. I guess the monetary needs are bad in south America. I trained with Japanese masters.
Not legal techniques, merely just aggressive partnered yoga. Great video.
These techniques have been lost for a good reason, they are outdaded ineffective obsolent attacks that would never work on a modern high level grappler or even on a decent hobbyist. Even the killer whale choke/ spine lock is slightly inferior to that of pro wrestling's boston crab, as in the boston crab you secure the legs under your armpits, which creates a tighter lock, and the legs are better secured.
🤣🤣🤣 Thank you for the humor!
Yeah cranking someone's head off, really ineffective.
Ineffective? I completely disagree. These are lethal combat strikes and locks.
Thanks Hulk Hogan!...they weren't lost, they were banned due to being extremely lethal for competition/everyday life, the above techniques were tested on the battlefield over 100's of years(the ultimate pressure test) in a life and death setting, many people lost their lives using and adapting what they were taught. a process of elimination and modification for what worked, they would of wiped the floor with today's grappler's and hobbyist, as you put it.
@@RenegadeRanga it's called neck crank and only low level practitioners do it until they learn to do the strangleholds properly.
I do most of these techniques everyday in my academy. Half of them are not effective against a strong/athletic opponent. Purple belts or higher would laugh at this shit, 😄
2:45
ua-cam.com/video/3-EvZC238R8/v-deo.html
Very Interesting. Judo is like genetics. It loses certain genes to become something else. A wolf becoming Lassie Come Home.
This is completely useless in MMA
I would dare you to prove me wrong on that with actual proof. Look up the MMA match where Kim Coulture used one of those techniques and won. 😂
Remember, old Jujutsu looked like wrestling with strikes. I mean, it’s parent arts were wrestling arts. Jujutsu didn’t have gi training or techniques either. Judo started the gi training. Now Judo’s training methodology is better, but it’s techniques are no different than jujutsu. Judo’s only difference is in training methodology and in philosophical motivation.