I’m sorry. We were trying something out that I thought might be engaging…. But I failed to consider all the different ways that people watch. I don’t think we’re going to do that again.
As a university student who is trying to understand the maths behind the hobby better, this channel has been both enjoyable but extremely insightful to how I enjoy consuming my learning. I think this video could be relabeled or at least subtitled a dive into Sustained and Lethal hits as well, since it tackles the fundamental "number sense" around the intuition of the two keywords. Hoping to see videos on the factions that I play (Chaos Knights, Chaos Daemons, Tau, Votann), but these are all amazing. Hope to see more videos in general, huge fan here.
Thank you so much for your support. I love sharing math stuff with people and 40K is such a rich topic for that. I’ll be incorporating more general math hammer stuff, let me know what topics you’re interested in.
@@warphammer-mathAwesome! Would love to see a video on when it’s best to use the newly nerfed “Armour of Contempt” since we have to choose one unit that’s shooting us. I specifically play Votann but I think the maths on any “AoC” type strat would be nice. I still struggle to understand when it’s best to use Void Armour
There are a few models out there with T14 or higher: Manta T14 Hierophant T14 Stompa T14 Phantom Titan T14 Reaver Titan T14 Warbringer Nemesis T14 Warlord T16 But in a practical sense, yeah. It’ll never really happen
It's so good with Bigger Shells for Bigger Gitz and Dakka, Dakka, Dakka. Full re-rolls, +1 to wound, +1 dmg. (I think sustained is the obvious choice 99% of the time)
@@warphammer-mathAlso as a suggestion for another target. How about a Norn Emissary on its Singular Purpose objective. Also also! Lol I would love to see a comparison of the Damage output of a Norn Emissary and a Norn Assimilator again on a singular purpose target.
Other cool tagets: The non-demon primarchs. Try shooting at Big Gully or Lion "The First//the Lion//Primaris Angelus Mortis" El'Jhonson (can you tell which I like more?)! There is a few more cool characters like the Silent King or the C'tan Shards... I know that they are mostly way less tanky than the actual tanks and monsters but trying to figure out scenarios where for example the Lion and his guards could kill Mortarion or how easy it actually is to kill the "Avenging Son" Robot Guilimarsh. Or just select a single unit as your baseline, one that is so expendable its part of the lore. Show us how many Gretchen the weapon would kill, explode some Guardsmen... There are many cool scenarios that in addition to math and simulation also have a story element. ^^ If I could wish for a video it would be a primarch gauntlet. A tournament of 1v1 simulations who wins most among the brothers we have data sheets for. (Maybe trying to off-set their cost differences with a few thematic guards or second in commands).
That…. Is totally something we have discussed. I love the idea of setting up a bracket. Gonna take a little doing though. I really want to make this happen. Fantastic idea!
Pitiless Cannonade unfortunately requires the target to be below half strength but the same scenario occurs in pactbound with Abaddon giving you the rerolls. These deathballs are super expensive to run in games but they can be super fun (not for your opponent lol).
Love your videos, thanks! The enemy I most want you to test against is a 3-unit of Blight Haulers. They are just really hard to kill, and taking out a unit of them in a cost-effective way seems nearly impossible especially once Deathguard buffs and debuffs come in. They seem to be able to take a lot more damage than a cursory look at their profile would imply.
Obliterators can trade up really well 160 points for two with a wide variety of shots but d3 melta on 3+ to hit with dmg 4 melta 2 is the best for blights then maulerfiends are devastating when they get close with 4 melta shots and then the fists
@@christophertidwell2422 2 Obliterators using the Melta profile only have a 31% chance of killing a Hauler, 21% if they are in range of the -1 to hit aura. That's not really trading up. Maulerfiend is better, at 56/36% chance of killing a Hauler, but at 130points that's not exactly trading up either. Between their lethal hits melee and Meltas he probably won't survive the clapback. But I'm playing Eldar, so neither of those options is really for me anyway!
a great super tanky target to put down would be a ca-tan shard. it doesn't really matter which one. T 11, 4+ save with a 4+ invuln. half damage. then feel no pain 5+.12 wounds I'm pretty sure it is one of if not the most tanky thing in the game
Perfect. A friend was telling me how he is planning an IW army with vindicators out the wazoo. Sharing this with him. P.S. did you know it’s based off the Sturmtiger
Oh no sh*t! I didn’t know what a sturmtiger was until I just now googled it (I’m not great at history stuffs) but it TOTALLY looks like the vindicator!
Hay I'm building the admech combat patrol ATM and I've got questions that I think you maybe able to help with namely the two pteraxii squads and which is the better load out 👍 been loving the content btw 😊
Great work, there used to be tons of meta discussion like this in older editions but it's seem to have fallen by the wayside! I suggest taking a look at ork shooting in general to show how the 5+s aren't as bad as they seem when you have volume of shots to back it up
Knights get a 5+ invuln against ranged attacks and potentially a 5+ or 6+ feel no pain from detachment, so that's a bit optimistic that it will one shot a castellan.
When wounding on 4s sus vs lethal likely gives the same expected damage but sus introduces more variance. It's essentially do you want one 100% shot or 2 50% shots? With the latter you have a 25% chance of bouncing and a 25% chance of 2 wounds. In summary of you need to spike high goto sustained, if you need consistency go lethals when wounding on 4+
I completely agree with your analysis. So something like. If you expect to kill your target… lethals, if you’re hoping to roll hot, sustained. I like it.
Dumb thing to mention and not sure if it is on purpose but the audio channels are not left and right balanced (top fellow right lean, bottom fellow left lean) if this was done on purpose to hear you both when speaking at once makes sense just might be worth a mention.
Also going with a warpsmith seems weird. Adding him boosts costs by 37.5% and only boosts offense by 25% or ~21% if you are pack bound zealots ignoring his unimpressive and short range shooting. Similarly his healing adds some durability but unless pacts or early moderate enemy shooting gives early wounds with several turns to heal, he will have a hard time getting a37.5% boost to durability. Plus he is slowing down a shortish range tank with his 6 inch move.
Totally a sound argument. When you are fishing me makes a bigger difference. Healing can be pretty awesome…. But I agree it doesn’t seem like an auto include. I like having him, or a tech marine, as a model tagging along that doesn’t mind giving up shooting to do actions.
In my games, you ain't got time for no Warpsmith! You wanna advance that thing forward before anyone can blow it up. You take Renegade Raiders and get those things in range, then kill them before they can kill you. +1 to hit is nice, but if that guy can't keep up, he is of no use to you. After I read the Horus Heresy story, "Ironfire", this was the only way to play Iron Warriors, as far as I was concerned! I always enjoy your videos. 👍💥
Warlord titan has toughness 16 if I remember correctly, but practically nothing has more than 13 toughness, since it’s basically impossible to actually take one in a real game.
You are going to get a million comments saying this but abandon gives an 6” aura of reroll hits so you can do the zealots helbrute combo with full rerolls to hit!
On this Video I only have audio on my left ear
It’s weirdly split between the 2 guys
Yeah, was an experiment. Don’t think we’re are doing that again. Thank you for the feedback.
good feedback, noted!
Comments for the comment gods!! Love this channel keep em coming and keep having as much fun as you guys are love it
Love the channel, loved the video
(As a listener with only one headphone your L/R panning killed me!)
I’m sorry. We were trying something out that I thought might be engaging…. But I failed to consider all the different ways that people watch. I don’t think we’re going to do that again.
4:00 you underestimate my power to roll 1s
Dude - I feel this
@@daynoart you cant talk danyno u chose orcs!
I didnt think mathhammer can be so entertaining, great presentation makes a huge difference!
thanks viktorvh you rule!
As a university student who is trying to understand the maths behind the hobby better, this channel has been both enjoyable but extremely insightful to how I enjoy consuming my learning.
I think this video could be relabeled or at least subtitled a dive into Sustained and Lethal hits as well, since it tackles the fundamental "number sense" around the intuition of the two keywords.
Hoping to see videos on the factions that I play (Chaos Knights, Chaos Daemons, Tau, Votann), but these are all amazing. Hope to see more videos in general, huge fan here.
Thank you so much for your support. I love sharing math stuff with people and 40K is such a rich topic for that. I’ll be incorporating more general math hammer stuff, let me know what topics you’re interested in.
heck yeah dankimus! thanks for sharing :D
@@warphammer-mathAwesome! Would love to see a video on when it’s best to use the newly nerfed “Armour of Contempt” since we have to choose one unit that’s shooting us.
I specifically play Votann but I think the maths on any “AoC” type strat would be nice. I still struggle to understand when it’s best to use Void Armour
the only Time where a vindicator or any other Strenght 14 weapon will wound on a 4+ it's again Fellhammer siege Host detachement because of the rules
Minus 1 to wound?
There are a few models out there with T14 or higher:
Manta T14
Hierophant T14
Stompa T14
Phantom Titan T14
Reaver Titan T14
Warbringer Nemesis T14
Warlord T16
But in a practical sense, yeah. It’ll never really happen
@@TheGreatOldOneJay Thanks Jay, very kind of you to bring this info to light but in such a nice and reasonable way! you rock dude!!!
Stompa has T14, would love a video detailing the possible dmg output that a stompa could do, dakka dakka dakka
It's so good with Bigger Shells for Bigger Gitz and Dakka, Dakka, Dakka. Full re-rolls, +1 to wound, +1 dmg. (I think sustained is the obvious choice 99% of the time)
as an iron warrior I find this very interesting mortal. you will have to come with us and meet our primarch.
Love the content but switching to the dark mode infographics is the absolute best! My eyes thank you so hard!
It’s my preference too, I’m glad you’re into it.
@@warphammer-mathAlso as a suggestion for another target. How about a Norn Emissary on its Singular Purpose objective.
Also also! Lol I would love to see a comparison of the Damage output of a Norn Emissary and a Norn Assimilator again on a singular purpose target.
the best firstborn tank
I think it might just be the best goddamn tank ever...
Just had a sus 1 vindicator bounce off mortarion doing 3 damage last night. So sad…
More chaos content for the glory of the dark gods
Agreeeeeed 🔥👌👌
Other cool tagets:
The non-demon primarchs. Try shooting at Big Gully or Lion "The First//the Lion//Primaris Angelus Mortis" El'Jhonson (can you tell which I like more?)!
There is a few more cool characters like the Silent King or the C'tan Shards... I know that they are mostly way less tanky than the actual tanks and monsters but trying to figure out scenarios where for example the Lion and his guards could kill Mortarion or how easy it actually is to kill the "Avenging Son" Robot Guilimarsh.
Or just select a single unit as your baseline, one that is so expendable its part of the lore. Show us how many Gretchen the weapon would kill, explode some Guardsmen... There are many cool scenarios that in addition to math and simulation also have a story element. ^^
If I could wish for a video it would be a primarch gauntlet. A tournament of 1v1 simulations who wins most among the brothers we have data sheets for. (Maybe trying to off-set their cost differences with a few thematic guards or second in commands).
That…. Is totally something we have discussed. I love the idea of setting up a bracket. Gonna take a little doing though. I really want to make this happen. Fantastic idea!
Comments for the comment gods, likes for the like throne!
17:26 Abbadon has a 6' bubble of reroll hits.
Ohhhh that would be a nice option - especially because your vindicator has to be within 24” anyway
Warp smith is much better just give +1 to hit for 2+
@@christophertidwell2422I think he is referring to the part where they wanted to reroll to fish for 5+ lethal/sustains in pactbound
@@christophertidwell2422 It mathematically is strictly worse because of Crit 5s. Warpsmiths aren't in any GT winning list. Just Abby
Pitiless Cannonade unfortunately requires the target to be below half strength but the same scenario occurs in pactbound with Abaddon giving you the rerolls. These deathballs are super expensive to run in games but they can be super fun (not for your opponent lol).
Love your videos, thanks!
The enemy I most want you to test against is a 3-unit of Blight Haulers. They are just really hard to kill, and taking out a unit of them in a cost-effective way seems nearly impossible especially once Deathguard buffs and debuffs come in. They seem to be able to take a lot more damage than a cursory look at their profile would imply.
Obliterators can trade up really well 160 points for two with a wide variety of shots but d3 melta on 3+ to hit with dmg 4 melta 2 is the best for blights then maulerfiends are devastating when they get close with 4 melta shots and then the fists
@@christophertidwell2422 2 Obliterators using the Melta profile only have a 31% chance of killing a Hauler, 21% if they are in range of the -1 to hit aura. That's not really trading up.
Maulerfiend is better, at 56/36% chance of killing a Hauler, but at 130points that's not exactly trading up either. Between their lethal hits melee and Meltas he probably won't survive the clapback.
But I'm playing Eldar, so neither of those options is really for me anyway!
Friggin Deathguard! I feel your pain.
a great super tanky target to put down would be a ca-tan shard. it doesn't really matter which one. T 11, 4+ save with a 4+ invuln. half damage. then feel no pain 5+.12 wounds
I'm pretty sure it is one of if not the most tanky thing in the game
Def gonna try that!
T13 is the max not any bane blade nor knight have higher
laughs in WAAAGGGGHHHHH from atop my T14 stompa
@@henaz77 of course it could only be an ork thing🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉
@@henaz77or my T14 Phantom Titan
Perfect. A friend was telling me how he is planning an IW army with vindicators out the wazoo.
Sharing this with him.
P.S. did you know it’s based off the Sturmtiger
Good luck!
Oh no sh*t! I didn’t know what a sturmtiger was until I just now googled it (I’m not great at history stuffs) but it TOTALLY looks like the vindicator!
@@daynoart yeah I had the same reaction. Btw, it’s a poorhammer meme, someone mentioned that when one of its host declared his hatred of it.
Hay I'm building the admech combat patrol ATM and I've got questions that I think you maybe able to help with namely the two pteraxii squads and which is the better load out 👍 been loving the content btw 😊
Dont forget about Abbadon!!! Reroll all hits aura makes everything extra lethal!!
The repulsor executionner with Anvil siege force not moving is a fire platform I think can take a LOT of things😉😉
comment for the comment god. praise be the almighty algorithm.
Great work, there used to be tons of meta discussion like this in older editions but it's seem to have fallen by the wayside!
I suggest taking a look at ork shooting in general to show how the 5+s aren't as bad as they seem when you have volume of shots to back it up
That’s a fantastic idea!
Yes more Warhammer Mathematics yes yes YES!!!
Id love to see one of these videos covering the forgefiend!!
It's pretty specific, but could you do some crisis suit squads at different ranges in Retaliation Cadre?
Knights get a 5+ invuln against ranged attacks and potentially a 5+ or 6+ feel no pain from detachment, so that's a bit optimistic that it will one shot a castellan.
When wounding on 4s sus vs lethal likely gives the same expected damage but sus introduces more variance.
It's essentially do you want one 100% shot or 2 50% shots? With the latter you have a 25% chance of bouncing and a 25% chance of 2 wounds.
In summary of you need to spike high goto sustained, if you need consistency go lethals when wounding on 4+
I completely agree with your analysis. So something like. If you expect to kill your target… lethals, if you’re hoping to roll hot, sustained. I like it.
never really wanted a Vindicator as i hated the model.
BUT then they made the HH Vindicator, and i converted it for my CSM army :D
All about the conversions!
WOOOOO MATH TIME AT 1 AM LETS GOOO
Dumb thing to mention and not sure if it is on purpose but the audio channels are not left and right balanced (top fellow right lean, bottom fellow left lean) if this was done on purpose to hear you both when speaking at once makes sense just might be worth a mention.
I’d love to see how these damage combos stack up against ctan with their half damage, 4 invuln, and 5+ fnp
Definitely a highly requested target. I think I don’t have a choice :)
Also going with a warpsmith seems weird. Adding him boosts costs by 37.5% and only boosts offense by 25% or ~21% if you are pack bound zealots ignoring his unimpressive and short range shooting. Similarly his healing adds some durability but unless pacts or early moderate enemy shooting gives early wounds with several turns to heal, he will have a hard time getting a37.5% boost to durability. Plus he is slowing down a shortish range tank with his 6 inch move.
Totally a sound argument. When you are fishing me makes a bigger difference. Healing can be pretty awesome…. But I agree it doesn’t seem like an auto include. I like having him, or a tech marine, as a model tagging along that doesn’t mind giving up shooting to do actions.
I can't remember, did somebody mention a warpsmith at some point?
lol.
In my games, you ain't got time for no Warpsmith! You wanna advance that thing forward before anyone can blow it up. You take Renegade Raiders and get those things in range, then kill them before they can kill you. +1 to hit is nice, but if that guy can't keep up, he is of no use to you. After I read the Horus Heresy story, "Ironfire", this was the only way to play Iron Warriors, as far as I was concerned!
I always enjoy your videos. 👍💥
Yeah, especially true when you can advance and shoot!
Not sure if it's just me, but the stereo audio balance seems to be a bit off and coming mostly through the left ear? Although it's good quality
Please fix the audio! its skewed to the left
The only problem is the incredibly short range for the tank
Yeah…. Does a good job of controlling a portion of the board…. But I definitely want to deal with it at range with my bright lances if possible.
Warlord titan has toughness 16 if I remember correctly, but practically nothing has more than 13 toughness, since it’s basically impossible to actually take one in a real game.
I’ve never played a game bigger than 2k points. Would love to play a giant game with so big walkers one day.
Instead of the bloodthirster can you use the Great Unclean One.
I’m trying to change it up… but I do see him on the table more often.
Comment for the comment God!
Just pop smoke in defense 😅
You are going to get a million comments saying this but abandon gives an 6” aura of reroll hits so you can do the zealots helbrute combo with full rerolls to hit!
Hell yes! Dane will be pleased.
Would love to see some tau math
I’ve got a friend I’m trying to convince to play tau. I’ll see what I can do :)
@ the facts around tau breacher squads have been interesting for me to try and explore
@ also, great job on leveling up the presentations each video. They keep getting better and better.
Are you two Twins?!
Just brothers! I love that guy!