@@johnmorris1009impossible to know :/ oversight possibly.. if so.. not the worst! It really all depends how you look at it. I imagine there was countless versions as the later story evolved. It's a case off.. over thinking of the reader and the possibly genius of tolkien :D
I understand the resentment that mortal men felt. Elves got it all. They are forever young. They don't get sick. They have excellent vision & hearing. They talk to birds & animals, perform magic , & they are all good singers. They are even ambidextrous, for Pete's sake. Eru can take the "gift of man" & stuff it in his ethereal nether regions. I want to be an elf!
The Numeonor shared many of these qualities, but yes, lacked the one that they desired the most. The gift of men was not a curse, it truly was a gift, albeit a gift that was hard to understand. Its sort of a perspective type of thing. :D
What a way to kick off the Morning! Excellent video as always. Long theory approaching! The ban on Numenor never seemed entirely fair to me. Though technically Men and Dwarves could not go to Valinor, it was a technological hinderence, only the elves and later Numenoreans could build such ships during the second age (as far as Tolkien describes). There was no ban on them, the Valar likely presumed that they would not have any interest or means of going. The Numenoreans, on the other hand, were banned as early as Elros choosing mortality, which over time might have been seen as some sort of bias against them in particular. Through their human ancestors I like to think the half-elves were already mortal, albeit extremely long-lived. That Elros and his people should be banned some years after him choosing mortality seems almost cruel, as the ban likely prevented him from visiting his parents. I would not be surprised if his parents lost track of the passage of time and never saw him again. The Falmari of Tol Eressea are mentioned as the most common visitors, as the Telleri built most of the ships. With their lands further from the shoreline, the Noldor and Vanyar likely had less of an incentive. This raises the clear issue of the Numenoreans likely subconcsiously trying to raise themselves up to the level of the West. By only allowing visitors from Valinor to Numenor and not vice versa, there was an unequal relationship / power dynamic. The limitation on diplomatic interactions likely strained relations, as if the elves did not like something they could just leave and never visit again (when this eventually happenned it must have led to further frustration, even if the Numenoreans were responsible for beginning their persecution). Considering the fallability of the elves during the 1st Age, they are likely the fools responsible for branding Aman the "Undying Lands" instead of a more accurate Land of the Undying, Lands of the Immortals. Just a minor distinction that could prevent men from thinking that the land was what made people there immortal. If the Valar allowed some men to enter the lands as ambassadors it would have become apparant that they died sooner, which would have detered the Numenoreans from ever visiting again. I am definitely overthinking it, but the Valar could have handled the matter much better than letting the Numenoreans go down a slippery slope. When Sauron was captured, they should have reached out to Ar Pharazon so that Sauron is delivered to the Halls of Mandos where he can't cause any harm. Perhaps even allow Pharazon to deliver him to Aman himself, so he might experience himself that the lands do not make its inhabitants immortal. It was actually a wasted opportunity, not reaching out to him.
Glad you liked it. Its cool, Its one of the reasons i make the videos, to explore lore and possibilities with the community. Completely agree, the ban always seemed unfair, especially, if its true, the keenest eyes among the Númenóreans (far-sighted in early days) could actually see the vision of Avallónë, the haven of the Eldar upon Eressëa, easternmost of the Undying Lands which the less informed numenoreans assumed was Valinor, it really played on their minds. Yes, the Teleri or falmari as you aptly put it, seem to be the only true interaction or exchange the numenor had with the west in respect of craft, plants and gifts etc. It would of been interesting to see numenorean Ambassadors visiting Aman, describing what they saw, and perhaps becoming overwhelmed by the beautiful and reality of their mortality. Its hard to tell how they would of reacted. Numenoreans are an unpredictable and ambitious people and they are not easily detered. In fact, if i was to apply my imagination to it, I dare say this would of lead to something darker (which I have had a few thoughts on for a future video). You make a good point, the capturing of Sauron was a turning point and an opportunity lost, but by the time this happened, the majority of the numenorean people were shadows of what they once were and frankly the eldar at this stage were kinda sick of them. The biggest changes of course, the neglect and eventually banning of religious cermonies in which the Númenóreans worshipped Eru upon the mountain of Meneltarma . Punishable by death during Ar-Pharazôn time, but the kings had started to neglect them after Tar-Ancalimon ( next ruler on my list) which is not something you want to do, the valar are not always watching, but Eru was. When it comes down to it, in my opinion, Aman should not off been left visible in the world. I often felt it was an indulgence of eru Ilúvatar, allowing it to remain upon the Earth, especially after the whole business with the Morgoth and the Silmarillions. Its created a very large temptation for man from Numenor to middleearth. But sayings all this, I do understand the Ban. It was an attempt to help focus the race of men and make them understand that middle-earth was their home and their paradise. Numenor allowed them to find the very best of themselves, but instead of sharing this with middle-earth (especially during this time), they became invaders of it. They did great things, this cant be brought into debate, but they went about it with such brute force. And its clear the Valar knew, the numenor could deal with suaron and destory him, even the ring, if they trusted themselves, and could find a way to find contentment with what they had. but.. this I'm afraid did not happen.
@@hansgruber3045 Although I believe you have highlighted a bad habit i started from Atanamirs rule with "Valar". I will make a note to avoid that in upcoming videos.
Definitely the biggest candidate of who to become the Witch-King.
You have a wonderful Tolkien lore channel. Hope the subscriptions pick up!
Thanks:) appreciate it. If there ever was one. But the dates wouldn't match for him to anything but the king.
The timeline doesn't match up. He was long dead.
@@BeginningofDays Tolkien did give two dates for when his reign ended though. Often seen as an oversight, unless there was deliberate reason for it.
@@johnmorris1009impossible to know :/ oversight possibly.. if so.. not the worst! It really all depends how you look at it. I imagine there was countless versions as the later story evolved. It's a case off.. over thinking of the reader and the possibly genius of tolkien :D
I understand the resentment that mortal men felt. Elves got it all. They are forever young. They don't get sick. They have excellent vision & hearing. They talk to birds & animals, perform magic , & they are all good singers. They are even ambidextrous, for Pete's sake.
Eru can take the "gift of man" & stuff it in his ethereal nether regions. I want to be an elf!
The Numeonor shared many of these qualities, but yes, lacked the one that they desired the most. The gift of men was not a curse, it truly was a gift, albeit a gift that was hard to understand. Its sort of a perspective type of thing. :D
What a way to kick off the Morning! Excellent video as always.
Long theory approaching!
The ban on Numenor never seemed entirely fair to me. Though technically Men and Dwarves could not go to Valinor, it was a technological hinderence, only the elves and later Numenoreans could build such ships during the second age (as far as Tolkien describes). There was no ban on them, the Valar likely presumed that they would not have any interest or means of going.
The Numenoreans, on the other hand, were banned as early as Elros choosing mortality, which over time might have been seen as some sort of bias against them in particular. Through their human ancestors I like to think the half-elves were already mortal, albeit extremely long-lived. That Elros and his people should be banned some years after him choosing mortality seems almost cruel, as the ban likely prevented him from visiting his parents. I would not be surprised if his parents lost track of the passage of time and never saw him again.
The Falmari of Tol Eressea are mentioned as the most common visitors, as the Telleri built most of the ships. With their lands further from the shoreline, the Noldor and Vanyar likely had less of an incentive. This raises the clear issue of the Numenoreans likely subconcsiously trying to raise themselves up to the level of the West. By only allowing visitors from Valinor to Numenor and not vice versa, there was an unequal relationship / power dynamic. The limitation on diplomatic interactions likely strained relations, as if the elves did not like something they could just leave and never visit again (when this eventually happenned it must have led to further frustration, even if the Numenoreans were responsible for beginning their persecution).
Considering the fallability of the elves during the 1st Age, they are likely the fools responsible for branding Aman the "Undying Lands" instead of a more accurate Land of the Undying, Lands of the Immortals. Just a minor distinction that could prevent men from thinking that the land was what made people there immortal. If the Valar allowed some men to enter the lands as ambassadors it would have become apparant that they died sooner, which would have detered the Numenoreans from ever visiting again.
I am definitely overthinking it, but the Valar could have handled the matter much better than letting the Numenoreans go down a slippery slope. When Sauron was captured, they should have reached out to Ar Pharazon so that Sauron is delivered to the Halls of Mandos where he can't cause any harm. Perhaps even allow Pharazon to deliver him to Aman himself, so he might experience himself that the lands do not make its inhabitants immortal. It was actually a wasted opportunity, not reaching out to him.
Glad you liked it. Its cool, Its one of the reasons i make the videos, to explore lore and possibilities with the community. Completely agree, the ban always seemed unfair, especially, if its true, the keenest eyes among the Númenóreans (far-sighted in early days) could actually see the vision of Avallónë, the haven of the Eldar upon Eressëa, easternmost of the Undying Lands which the less informed numenoreans assumed was Valinor, it really played on their minds. Yes, the Teleri or falmari as you aptly put it, seem to be the only true interaction or exchange the numenor had with the west in respect of craft, plants and gifts etc.
It would of been interesting to see numenorean Ambassadors visiting Aman, describing what they saw, and perhaps becoming overwhelmed by the beautiful and reality of their mortality. Its hard to tell how they would of reacted. Numenoreans are an unpredictable and ambitious people and they are not easily detered. In fact, if i was to apply my imagination to it, I dare say this would of lead to something darker (which I have had a few thoughts on for a future video). You make a good point, the capturing of Sauron was a turning point and an opportunity lost, but by the time this happened, the majority of the numenorean people were shadows of what they once were and frankly the eldar at this stage were kinda sick of them. The biggest changes of course, the neglect and eventually banning of religious cermonies in which the Númenóreans worshipped Eru upon the mountain of Meneltarma .
Punishable by death during Ar-Pharazôn time, but the kings had started to neglect them after Tar-Ancalimon ( next ruler on my list) which is not something you want to do, the valar are not always watching, but Eru was. When it comes down to it, in my opinion, Aman should not off been left visible in the world. I often felt it was an indulgence of eru Ilúvatar, allowing it to remain upon the Earth, especially after the whole business with the Morgoth and the Silmarillions. Its created a very large temptation for man from Numenor to middleearth. But sayings all this, I do understand the Ban. It was an attempt to help focus the race of men and make them understand that middle-earth was their home and their paradise. Numenor allowed them to find the very best of themselves, but instead of sharing this with middle-earth (especially during this time), they became invaders of it. They did great things, this cant be brought into debate, but they went about it with such brute force. And its clear the Valar knew, the numenor could deal with suaron and destory him, even the ring, if they trusted themselves, and could find a way to find contentment with what they had. but.. this I'm afraid did not happen.
why did he live so long if he was mortal
because he was Numenorean, gifted with long life.
Valor and Manvee?
Are you asking about the pronunciation? or are you asking what they are?
@@BeginningofDays pronunciation. isnt it valar and manwe?
@@hansgruber3045 well, the odd misprouncation happens. Tough to avoid at times. I believe I hit the end of valar abit of key :P.
@@hansgruber3045 Although I believe you have highlighted a bad habit i started from Atanamirs rule with "Valar". I will make a note to avoid that in upcoming videos.
@@BeginningofDays Haha ;)