Tube vs Solid State Listening Test with the Schiit Freya Preamp
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- Опубліковано 20 сер 2024
- Can you hear a difference? Listen for yourself! Tung-Sol 6SN7 vs JFET mode on a Schiit Audio Freya balanced preamp. See in the comments below for my impression.
Update 11/29/2017: Check out Paul McGowan (head of PS Audio) talking about tube vs solid state front end...great insight! • Where vacuum tubes wor...
Note: Since the Tube and JFET stages in the Freya have different gain, loudness was matched using Adobe Audition to -24LUFS (loudness units relative to full scale), which is a broadcast standard.
Opening theme: Local Forecast - Slower Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License
creativecommons...
Songs for listening test:
"Flamenco" - Adam Ben Ezra
"Goulou I'Rim" - Fanfarai
#tycodogg #schiitfreya #tuberolling
I am surprised by this listening test, and ended up with more questions than answers. Bottom line after many listening sessions with my Yamaha HS80M studio monitors as well as my Audeze LCD-2 headphones is that to my ears, the quad new production Tung-Sol tubes sound identical to the JFET solid state mode in the Schiit Freya preamp! If you can hear a difference, I'd love to hear your thoughts.
So my big takeaways from this listening test and my previous test, "Schiit Freya Preamp - Tube Rolling Quads" are:
1) I thought I wouldn't hear any appreciable difference when swapping tubes. I seriously thought it was a gimmick to get people to buy lots of tubes. I was wrong, and can hear differences in both bass response as well as shifts in the soundstage (my Sylvania tubes shift the vocals/midrange to the center and seem more forward, where the Electro-Harmonix seem to spread the soundstage wider and with more "air"). I have no idea how a tube does this.
2) I thought the big difference would come from switching between tube and solid state on the Freya preamp. Once I finished editing this video though, I was a bit surprised. In my system, my ears could not distinguish any difference between the Tung-Sol tubes and the JFET.
3) So taking what I learned in the previous listening test and this one, I conclude that the new production Tung-Sol tubes very closely match the JFET sound in my system, and to my ears. This makes sense, since the Tung-Sols had the most pronounced bass impact of the 4 quads tested previously, and many people say that solid state amps have a better, more controlled bass response than tube. Perhaps if I compared my other tubes to the JFET, I may hear more of a difference.
Hi, thanks for your channel. I have a Schiit Freya as a pre-amp which I use for headphones. What, in your opinion, is the best tubes for the Schiit Freya and can you give notes why? Also, is it better to match all 4 of these tubes or is 2 fine ? Thank you!
Hi S.P. that's a difficult question to answer. Certain tubes have their strengths which I prefer in my sound system, and everyone's taste is different. What might sound great to me, may sound overly bright or dull to another person, for example. Having said that, I can give you my general thoughts based on the listening tests I have done for my channel:
Quads:
Electro-Harmonix - I love the silky, airy high frequencies these tubes produce in my system. The soundstage seems wide and deep. These tubes won 1st place in my first listening test. Now, I don't know if that's a characteristic of the E-H brand, of if it's because I paid extra for a matched and balanced quad set of these tubes. I just know they sound great in my system and are my overall favorite so far.
Amperex - Even though the tubes are marked Made in Holland, these look identical to the Soviet-made 6H8C tubes that I have, and many people believe they are rebranded Soviet tubes. I care less about where they are made and care more about how they sound. And all I can say is these tubes were impressive with rock music. Very strong, upfront soundstage, with no fatiguing highs. My favorite when I just want to turn up the music and get loud.
CBS-Hytron 5692 - Refined, tight, accurate sound...super smooth and laid back high frequencies. I can listen to these tubes all day and just enjoy the clean sound for hours without stressing my ears out.
Duals:
Shuguang Black Treasures - For duals, these had a great, silky and airy high frequency, similar to the E-H quads above, but did it with only 2 tubes (in the gain stage). If I had to run duals, these would probably be it.
I prefer running quads instead of duals, because I feel that you are hearing more of the brand's characteristics vs mixing and matching. But that's just my opinion.
More to come soon...I have a matched and balanced quad set of JJ Electronics tubes from Slovak Republic that I will be testing next.
Thank you! What type of Electro-Harmonix is it - the model and type? thanks
Platinum matched 6SN7, purchased from Upscale Audio: www.upscaleaudio.com/collections/preamp-tubes/products/electro-harmonix-6sn7
Huh. Very interesting to me. I thought I could detect a bit of difference on the solo bass, but very little at all on the Flamenco piece. A very musically satisfying device, this Freya! Either way.
With the tubes I hear more bass reverb and bass extension which both produce a more 3D sound stage. Thanks for posting!
Yeah the bass just disappears
I'm hearing more headroom and dynamic range in the tubes especially in the mids and bass. Seems to have warmth. Thanks for posting this.
I noticed a difference in bass. The tubes had a smoothness that my ears preferred. I was able to pick out when the tubes were in and out while listening blindly. There also was a sense of sound stage expansion with the tubes in. I hit 9 out 10 times correctly!!
Thanks for introducing me to Adam Ben Ezra, dude is a genius!
Listening with studio headphones and dac amp, the difference is sooo small and barely visible that tubes arent worth it in this case IMO.
Great test friend! Yes, I almost always prefer tubes because the biggest difference is (when tracking or playing thru digital mediums) the tubes slow the audio down (transients become more exaggerated and longer) which in turn is more pleasant to the human ear, from what I can tell. It sort of makes the music longer and taller, with more extended slow lows and a little silkier top.
Wow, awesome! People are so desperately seeking for tubes sounding better that they do hear differences in a youtube video (the "better" tube sound survives the recording equipment, the analog to digital coversion, the youtube compression, the computer sound card...). Amazing!
I mean…. Well Yea…. A difference at one end, is going to be a difference at the other end.. 😂. lol but I could only tell on the first, and that’s just because the lone bass has a more “pronounced” sound with the tube…
@@Borderlinepsycotic That makes sense. Some differences can be heard if they are "different enough". I don't say there aren't any differences in sound, between tubes and solid state. But they are actually difficult to hear through the shelf-speakers+soundcard+dac+you tube compression+adc+mic process.
@@JORDIMB1970 True that, I had on my headphones which is probably the only reason I could “hear” it. I was mainly being cheeky…. lol 😉🤜🏾
The tubes add a certain echo that we can not hear in reality, which sounds a little bit warmer. The solid is a bit vice versa, so it take stg. away from echo but it takes less from neutral sound, then a tube adds to the neutral sound, so that is my point. So it is all up to preferece.
I swear I can hear a difference in the actual timbre of the instruments, especially the percussion instruments. I hear more low end extension, more of the room the instruments were recorded in, and just seems like overall more "sound" if you will from all the instruments. At first I couldn't hear a difference, but after listening several times I can hear it. In the solid state mode it's like you can hear more space between the instruments and in tube mode, it's sound more like you are really there.
First of all, it sounds great solid state. With that said, it’s more convincingly real with tubes. I’m trying to put my finger on it. I think i hear more post-ringing on the heavier notes with the tubes and it gives me the illusion of the room being energized more. I need this in my life.
I think what you refer to as "post-ringing on the heavier notes" is what I describe as a fuller, more rounded bass guitar and kick drum sound with tubes, and this difference is what I most commonly hear when testing tubes vs. solid state. Although I couldn't pick up much difference with the new Tung Sols here, check out my Tungsram tests, which I feel really show this effect.
@@TycoDogg That you for sharing these videos. :)
What you have shown is that high end, quality solid state amplification can rival tube amplification. I found the solid state to be a little thinner with less headroom but fine. The problem is that most solid state amps are a comprise at best with cost as a primary factor in production comprising the sound quality. I find often the speakers used color the sound more than any other factor. Most people wouldn't know the difference.
I don't know about anybody else but I definitely hear a difference. The solid state has more high end, a really pronounced mid, a thuddy low end, and it doesn't sound quite as rounded as the tube. I may be crazy though...
The difference is subtle bur significant. I only own solid state, but I enjoy the tube sound here more. It has been many decades since I joyfully abandoned tubes to avoid the degradation with age issue, but I may get a Freya+ after this.
The tube sound is fuller, more dynamic, and soulful. Solid state output is a bit anemic, but not all that much.
For me, it’s easier to tell when something is missing than when something is added. Even at low volume with poopy phones, when the bass track changed from tube pre to jfet, the soundstage collapsed. Probably even more telling with speakers.
Thank you for this toggled listening comparison! I appreciate the opportunity to close my eyes and see if I could tell the difference without "seeing" the difference. I'm quite familiar with Adam ben Ezra's "Flamenco" track, and so it was perfect for me. There were a couple of places where (eyes open) I perceived a bit more fullness with the tubes, but repeated with eyes closed, I did not correctly identify the same spots. La!
My setup is basic: PC with iTunes serving lossless AIFF files through an Audioquest Dragonfly Black (v1.5 w/current firmware) into a Linn Majik integrated amp (circa 1999) powering B&W CDM1 speakers (similar vintage). My video (Sony BR) comes into the Linn via a SMSL M6 DAC. I was curious about using the Schiit Freya as a pre-amp and the Linn as the amp. I guess I don't need to because >my ears< can't readily detect any difference.
That's worth knowing.
Hi Nataraj, thanks for your insight! I came to a similar conclusion as you, in that I couldn't hear a noticeable difference. But, I think the important distinction is that I couldn't hear a difference between new production Tung-Sol tubes and solid state. This is not to say that there is no general difference between tube mode and solid state mode. The only logical conclusion to this particular listening test is that new production Tung-Sol tubes sound the most like solid state mode to my ears. Maybe others with highly trained ears can hear a difference that I cannot. When you listen to my first quad listening test (new prod. Tung-Sol, NOS Sylvania, new prod. Electro-Harmonix, and Soviet 6H8C), there are audible differences in frequency response and soundstage between the different tubes, and I think if I would have chosen a different tube for this test, you may be able to hear a difference.
Yes, perhaps. I believe one of the reasons I purchased the equipment I did, and never replaced it over these 18 years, is that it reproduces music in a way that doesn't seem like it's altering the signal. It's designed to walk the middle of the road, and do that well. Should you duplicate the video with other tubes, I'll happily repeat the experiment. (No pressure on you!)
Ken Rockwell has an excellent article regarding tubes vs. solid state (kenrockwell.com/audio/why-tubes-sound-better.htm). It's a great read, and as a fellow Electrical Engineer, I appreciate his technical explanations for the subtle differences that I am hearing with these listening tests.
loving my SA300 with a fxaudio preamp and obscure russian lamps. D'on't spend too much guys, I think that most of the people on earth will be more than fine with a 500€ system
listened to this blind, at 1080p and with a pair of HS50M, i couldn't hear any difference at all. maybe my hearing was damaged.
yukio321 same here. I'm sure your hearing is fine. Read my first comment for a possible explanation.
yukio321 Totally agree Mate, I’m listening to the comparison on my Shure 846 in ear monitors and if there were a difference they would reveal it.
if you’ll just listen to the music without being influenced by the picture, it will be very hard to tell the difference.
Could hear the first song easily with only bass but the second one I couldn’t hear blind.
listening through a gumby multibit, freya+ on passthrough and an ageir driving RP-600M's and there's a HUGE difference between the tung sol and jfet on the first track. the second track is harder to tell but still sounds like a bigger soundstage with the tung sol. great video though
Hello! Congratulation for the Test, and the nice music you choose. I believe, the reason for us, not to hear differences is our setup, not your fault!
I, again, hear almost nothing different between rolling, if i have to vote, with very-very hard trying, is maybe little better with the tubes.
Hi Yannis, if you read my comments at the top, I arrived at the same conclusion as you! Don't worry, it just means that the new production Tung-Sols are a very close match to solid state. Try listening to my latest video with the Tesla tubes and you should be able to notice a difference.
Tubes color the bass and solid state is more accurate. 😊 I have both a B.A.T system and a Solid State Emotiva system I like both! Sound-staging is a bit wider with tubes. I hear those differences in both my systems also.
For lack of better terms, tubes sound more liquid and solid state is drier and more muscular. For listen back, tubes win every time for me. Kinda like the difference between cassette tape and CD. Albeit not as drastic
I couldn't really hear much of a difference but hell those tubes looked great.😁👍
Tube sounds sparking and I hear duller sounds in bass Mids and especially treble. Tube Seems more Alive/dynamic and more reverb fir sure.
I had to go back and double check if you used more than one set of tubes, after reading your comments about other brands. And yes, I absolutely picked up the difference, just listening on my Bluetooth headphones (Drop Pandas) while I wash dishes.
That said, I know what to look for. I also have a tube amp that I use with Audeze headphones. For those not picking up a difference, do not focus so much an the frequency response, but instead on the presentation. Tube sound seems to float in the air and give a more believable sense that the music is really happening and in three dimensional space. Lower end solid state systems tend to feel more like the sound is painted on a mural, rather than occupying a real space. Even a very good class A solid state with a good sense of depth and layering, can still feel like the individual sounds are 2D. Like a pop-up picture book. Or the difference between a 3D movie that was converted from 2D, VS a movie that was natively filmed with a stereoscopic camera. If you have a good solid state, don't fret. You'd probably need a tube amp side by side to realize the difference. And I still use my solid state as my daily driver and it's great.
I'm also a headphone guy and that is where I draw these conclusions. I'm just now getting into nicer speaker stuff and I think speakers may lend themselves more to a 3D image without so much help from tubes. But then, DAC, amp and all the BS you go through with the room and positioning are critical...
Also the highs have a smoother presence with the tubes. Particularly with the horns on the second track.
Tubes add a bit reverb which makes it sound like it was recorded in a hall rather than a studio. As much as I prefer the tube sound, SS have more faithful reproduction.
This opinion is the most accurate one, I agree. 🌞
Tube sounds more pleasing to my ears. I look away from the screen and every time got it right when I feel it's the tube sound.
With the first song, I heard more depth of soundstage and more realism, and I think it was due to more bass presence. There was more bloom around the instrument and percussive sounds that made it feel more real. It was definitely noticeable. The second song was pretty much identical to me. Couldn't tell any difference. Maybe it was because there was far more instruments and sounds to hear.
Solid State sounds "smaller", "tighter", "colder" and more "focused". Tubes sound "bigger", "sweeter", "hotter", and more "open". One can claim that both sound good, but there is definitely a difference and isn't subtle... like, at all!
The solid state tone is slightly flat and tinny like cheap headphones and the tube tone seems to relay more of the natural sound of the performance
Listening through Sennheiser HD 280 Pro headphones. With the tubes I perceive a greater low midrange. I closed my eyes and had my wife watch me and the video. I moved my hand whenever the switch occurred and she said I was right on it.
Hi thanks a lot for the very interesting video. I cannot hear big differences. However i love some tubes that i cannot find anywhere and i do not know why. For line stage duties i like a lot the 12bh7. This is a very clean sounding and powerful driver. Imho it marries the good things of tube and solid state. I really deem a great driver.
I heard a difference with my eyes closed sensing the change in the low end, it was more extended and had a different presence with the tubes. The mid range wass more extended when it was solid state. But I do not believe that your equipments resolution is enough to make any final judgment. I believe to judge between a Tube phono pre-and a Solid State phono pre you should be using standalone units. A purest version of a tube pre amplifier sending it's signal to a tube amplifier and Vice versa to have a good A/B test
To my ears, tubes have a better low end quality and definition. But as for the rest, they sound identical.
Hmmm yes, I heard a difference, now…. Was it night and day absolutely not what I heard was a slightly warmer tone from the tubes. I started closing my eyes to see if I can hear the difference when it changed. I open my eyes when I thought I heard it, i was right many times, there was a different but it was so slight. I have the Schiit Frya+ preamplifier myself. I just purchased two 1962 vintage GE tubes in the gane stage. Do I hear a difference? Yes, the GE tubes are slightly brighter than the JJ tubes, not necessarily better. Just a little bit brighter. Same difference with the solid state versus tube test in this one. I think it’s just like viewing the world through a slightly different tint of sunglass, all great just slightly different
I am listening using a pair of IEMs and yes, there are differences.Tubes definitely sound fuller, more lush and musical. Solid state gives better depth, speed and dynamics. But it sounds a bit “dry” for my liking.
You could have the best of both worlds like me and use a preamp tube and be able to switch it on and off lol
I noticed more solid bass with the tube amp and a slight reverb effect, the solid state had less chest sound to it.
sounds good.... you probably need better headphones to be able to hear the difference or you would be wasting a set of tubes... kinda like when a person gets ahold of a nice set of headphones and realizes half of the instruments can now be heard vs his old headphones he has used for 10 yrs... and he claims, I am hearing details from this song I have been listening to for 30yrs and never knew Santana was playing in this song... its like I have a brand new collection of songs to re listen to... ha ha ha
I'm massively disappointed, the tubes mode sounds exactly like straight from the DAC. I used xlr cables to connect the DAC to the Freya and then to the amp. Parallel to the Freya I connected the DAC straight to the amp with an RCA cable. The amp has a switch to select xlr or rca, which allows me to seamlessly go back and forth between the Freya and the DAC. With the volume at about 80% in order to match both sources, they sound absolutely indistinguishable. Not better or worse, literally the same. I could only tell which one was which because I knew what position the switch was in, but sound didn't change in the slightest.
I understand your feeling but don't be disappointed. Out of all the tubes I've ran, the new production Tung Sols sounded the most like solid state mode to my ears. I couldn't tell the difference either. May I suggest trying some NOS tubes like Raytheon or Sylvania and seeing what you think? Be true to your own ears - if you still cannot hear a difference, put your money to better use elsewhere in your system.
@@TycoDogg I tried several tubes actually. First with new production Tung-Sols in the buffer stage and Sylvania GTAs in the gain side. Then tried moving the GTAs to the buffer side and placing RCA 5692s for the gain. Finally tried four Sylvania RCAs. Always indistinguishable from the signal coming straight from the DAC.
I chose to be true to my ears as you said and ended up returning it..
I can hear a difference, but I don't think I could pass a blind test on the difference. The difference is only subtle for my ears. But the greatest limitations in the test setup can be the resolution of amplifier and speakers. Since you are recording off a speaker instead of recording the output from the preamp directly.
I hear no discernible difference on headphones, and I just ordered one of these preamps 😜 Hopefully different tubes will change that.
Tubes for me
I don't like tubes because they add distortion but I also don't dirty or harsh sounding solid state. Need to find a good class A preamp and a clean sounding amp, class doesn't matter, ie AB or D, A gets very hot. Tubes are old and obsolete for a reason lol but people still think they love them.
Just an update, I ordered a quad matched set of the Tung Sols and after about 3-5 minutes of warm up I get a popping sound when turning up the volume on my Frey +, along with a hum in the left channel ,I removed them and reinstalled just to make sure all were seated good same thing, I reinstalled the originals and all was fine.. I got these on e-bay from a reputable company, Of course I called them and the person said to send them back that maybe there not compatible or there is a bad tube , and I would get another set sent out, well even though I put a note in the box requesting a replacement set I got a refund instead. I wont be getting tubes from them next time. So I guess Ill be looking for a different vendor ...
I had something similar happen to me once with another brand of new production tubes. It happens.
@@TycoDogg Can you point me to any other vendor's that you've had good luck with, Thanks for the reply .....
@@moon-light1354 Try Upscale Audio
@@TycoDogg Iv been looking at those, what's your take on the Gold- Platinum - or Stash, I plan on going no cryo...
Solid state has more transparent direct bass fundamental, tube has more depth in mids and highs and subtle harmonics on bass. Both sound great, but have very subtle differences. Dare I say Solid state for ‘clean’ tone and tube for ‘dirty’ tone
Ccan you do a null test video and analyze null spectrum differential between solid state and tube to validate the differences?
God damn that first song was so intense and beautiful. Also, tubes definitely made for a more 3D sound for me.
With the compression that UA-cam uses. There's not really possible to hear a real difference. I ran into my Spectrum analyzer barely any change in frequencies serious need to be able to play it and listen to a live to know the difference. I'm trying to decide what kind of preamp to get reading all kinds of opinions. I just need to go test stuff alive.
Enjoyed your video very much
Hi Larry, thanks for the feedback, I'm glad you enjoyed the video. This particular listening test was interesting in that I've come to the conclusion that new production Tung-Sols come very close in sound to solid state to my ears. Enough so, that I couldn't hear a difference. That's not to say that there are no differences given UA-cam's compression, and I invite you to listen to Genalex vs Tungsram (ua-cam.com/video/-Xbpus2c-_I/v-deo.html) and the EH/Sylvania/Tung-Sol/stock Freya test (ua-cam.com/video/RltJw004j3c/v-deo.html). You should be able to hear differences in these listening tests.
The differences appear to be so miniscule to my ears. If I had to choose, I would go against the grain here and prefer the jfet. It seemed to be just that slightly more cleaner and tighter in the lower end. At one time I thought I caught some noise / distortion in a quiter segment of the music. But really, I would have been better served to just enjoy the music instead of trying to find faults in it.
I could not hear a difference. BUT I am listening on my phone via Samsung buds plus.
they are completely different/separate technology. they will always be a difference on how they sound. solid states are made of silicone with substrate in their wafer state and semiconductance is being done with the amount of doping (impurities mixed on it), requires low voltage/high current to operate in amplifier applications. while vacuum valve tube need a high voltage/low current to operate in amplifier applications, and will produce/add harmonics on signals. tubes is made of alloy metals, it's plate, cathode, grids, heater filaments are all alloyed metals which required heat and high voltages in order for the electron to flow, so comparing them whatsoever is not gonna give you an objective conclusions. In our country before I migrated here in canada, i work there for 15 years as a final test engineer in a semiconductor/microelectronics company.
even over youtube, I can hear a difference. It's a matter of personal preference.
I actually hear slightly more hiss in the solid state and the high mids sound more present. Overall, I think the difference is negligible. I'm listening in studio monitors and can barely hear the difference. I'm more aware of the DC offset when you switch recordings than the recordings themselves. But I always know when it's the SS because it jumps out more.
Since I have this arrangement at home (different brand) I always notice the enormous width of the sound as if you are listening in hall. My unit is the Monoprice 50 watt hybrid with rolled American tubes. I retired a one year old Cambridge Audio amp for the Monoprice because it sounds better with my Canton speakers.
I'm lucky, I invented devices to convert CD to LP sound naturally. Also, Semiconductor to Tube sound! Patent Pending devices! I hope, I will find a company to license and manufacture, bring it to the consumers! But that's the tricky part, hehehe! Many Electronics Engineers are closed minded and focused on calling everything snake oil! Luckily I'm an open minded E.E., the technology is here!!!
These people saying the tubes sound better are fooling themselves. I've done this comparison live. The Freya S sounds dramatically better than the Freya +. The SS version has a much bigger sound stage and imaging. The + model with the tubes rolled everything off very flat. Instruments sounded dead with the tubes. This is through the same speakers and all other components. Blind listening proves it. And every time some tube lover gets all upset because they liked the SS better.
Solid state sounds warmer and richer, deep character development in the mid range roll offs and short range timber performance, on wait, that was last nights movie! Seriously, I cannot hear a difference. I suspect you would need a high resolution system to hear any differences if they exist. Happy holidays to everyone!
Haha good one! I reached the same conclusion as you with this particular listening test. My summary: When operating in their linear region, the new production Tung-Sols' sound is indistinguishable from JFET to my ears. Try listening to my Telefunken test and see if you reach the same conclusion.
without tube, it is cold and hard(still clear). Tube make it warm and soft
Hi just wish to seek your views since you are vastly experienced tube rolling. Just purchased the Schiit Freya +. Am planning to get a sylvania 6sn7 GTA short glass chrome top for my Schiit Freya + all 4 tubes. Is this a good option in terms of raising quality over the JJ stock tubes? Another option am considering is the Sylvania 6sn7 GTAs or JJ stock tubes for buffer stage and eLinlai 6sn7 for the gains. Will this lead to a better performance. Appreciate your advise.
Hi Ramesh, I'm no expert by any means and what I hear may not be the same thing as what others may hear. But I'm happy to give you my opinion. The Sylvanias have a relaxed and laid back presentation that's great for jazz. They help smooth out the sound of speakers that tend towards an upfront, forward sound. The Sylvanias are also plentiful for a NOS tube so they can be found for less money than many other brands. Can't go wrong with adding a set of Sylvanias to your tube collection.
Might be placebo, I can hear a difference in the 'smoothness' of the lower frequencies with the tubes.
how about the distortion of a tube, here is a datasheet of a 5881 power tube:
www.newsensor.com/pdf/tungsol/5881-tungsol.pdf
check out page 4, where overtones and output watts are plotted against load resistance,
a loudspeaker has a much higher resistance in the upper register than its nominal 8ohm description, in these frequencies the tubes produce alot! more distortion, maybe this is a strong factor for the sound:
the spot where the tube puts out the most power hast also the least 2nd order (even order) harmonics and the most third order that sound more crunchy and less warm actually, like more presence. also the area of low distortion is very narrow around 3000ohm to 4000ohm in this case, so a loudspeaker has a wide range of resistance, a 8ohm speaker has maybe 15ohm at the lower bass around the resonance frequency, then ohms go down towards the middle frequencies where it has the nominal 8ohms, around lets say 400Hertz, and then it goes up alot to maybe 20ohms or even more around 10 to 20kiloHertz.
if you compute this higher resistance with the distortion curve in the datasheet of the tube, 20ohms is more than double the nominal 8ohms, so if the tube runs on nominal 4000ohm, the upper frequencies of the loudspeaker actually see more than double that, maybe 10000ohm, which is far outside this datasheet already, where output power of the tube goes way down while distortion goes way up. maybe this is the key. high frequencies sound very present because all the distortion in it, at the say time the level of the highs goes way down.
I hear a to me surprisingly large difference in the first song and no difference at all in the second.
Absolutely no difference in sound!And i have good ear and good headphones!
JFET sounds flatter, especially on the second track.
That was very interesting. I did hear a difference but it was subtle. Maybe with more vocals would be more noticeable. I wonder if it's possible to record the output of the preamp directly, without passing through the speakers and the mic? Like sending the pre-out to a line-in in a computer? Is this possible? Because that'd give us a chance to really hear the output of the Freya without any colorations.
Thank you for sharing.
TUBE MODE IS BETTER, its more real-like
the tubes sound fuller...maybe a little muddier.
I cant hear a difference - which is most surprising.
Agreed in this case. However check out my Telefunken vs solid state comparison and you should be able to hear a difference in favor of the NOS tubes: ua-cam.com/video/sulIxJWGZWg/v-deo.html
Tubes rule all the way...preamp tube, power amp tube...with Quad ESL 63...and BIC woofer...I call it a day...
Since all UA-cam videos are compressed it is really hard to tell. With a lot of so called hybrids the tubes do very little or nothing at all.
Maybe it's in my head but I feel the tubes air some weight or air to the song
Really? You expect us to hear differences through UA-cam compression, on an iPad or pc ? I have the Freya+ and the tube section adds dimension and flesh..
The Freya is very revealing of the tubes used.. great for fine tuning the sound you like.. This is a great preamp that lacks that last bit of refinement.. but is so
Engaging and musical.. you will quickly forgive any shortcomings.. will compete with line stages costing 5x the price.
Could not tell the difference. Closed my eyes and tried to guess. Wrong as much as I was right.
Same here. The new production Tung-Sols are the most similar sounding to solid-state in my opinion. Try the latest listening test with the Tesla tubes ( ua-cam.com/video/Zbe6QqQ9ii4/v-deo.html ), which were one of the most different sounding of all the tubes I've tested, in terms of shifting soundstage.
@@TycoDogg I've been looking at this preamp for some time as I want to add some warmth and color to my self-assembled icepower 200 ASC monoblocks.
My concern is exactly what you demonstrated that there may not be that much difference between the Freya tube and the Freya solid state. I need to listen to you or to Rolling video
@@divadgnol67 I've been very pleased with my Freya, as it's done everything I need it to do, and without any issue. The difference in sound between Tube and JFET Mode on the Freya is entirely dependent on the tubes themselves, in my experience. Tube brands/types fall within a spectrum - from most solid-state like (new production Tung-Sol) to most tube-like (NOS Tungsram, NOS Tesla). The difference is notable but subtle in many cases, often showing up to my ears as shifts in soundstage and increases in the "roundness" and "fullness" of bass guitar and kick drum. Use my videos to gauge for yourself if the audible differences to your ears are substantial enough to warrant the purchase of a tube preamp/amp (making sure you are playing back these videos on a good system and not earbuds through a mobile phone, for example). The Freya is my first experience with tubes in my 2-channel home system, although I've used tube mic preamps for recording in my profession. And the Tyco Dogg channel was created specifically for me to decide via A/B comparison if there really is a difference. Bottom line after doing all the videos so far...a tube preamp will be a permanent part of my home system.
@@TycoDogg thank you so much for the insight and perspective
I have the CambridgeAudio 851N. Will it make any discernible difference to add the Freya as a preamp to it?
Your ears will have to decide that for you. Use my listening tests as a guide. Try to play the audio of my tests through your system. A good preamp should be transparent...it's the tubes that color the sound.
hi what do you mean solid state? passive? or j fet mode ////by the way i have the freya plus and in the jfet mode the gain goes down by about 3 db is this normal? thx
Definitely think the tubes sound more lively
I can never hear any difference between tubes and solid state.
Any comparison to Vincent SA-T8?
With Shure SRH 1340 headphones I hear no differences. I expected to....but I didn’t. Interesting. I’m suspicious now about how the Schiit Freya handles the signal.......?
Thanks for the comment. If you see my pinned comment at the top of the comments section, I'm in agreement with you in that I couldn't hear an appreciable difference between the new production Tung-Sol and the JFET mode. I used both a set of Audeze LCD-2 headphones as well as my Yamaha HS80 studio monitors for playback. However, one must be careful in deciding what this information provides.
To put your suspicions at ease, I put a quad set of Mullard tubes in my Freya and powered up my system in tube mode. Tapping on the voltage gain tubes (the pair on the right), I can clearly hear the microphonics coming through the speakers. Next, I switched the Freya to JFET mode and tapped the tubes again...nothing. Switched back to tube mode...tap tap...the sound is heard again through the speakers.
Based on this test an my other listening tests (in which differences can clearly be heard between tubes and JFET mode), the only logical conclusion (in my humble opinion) is that there is a "spectrum" of "most like solid state sound" and "least like solid state sound" that all tubes fall within. And the new production Tung-Sols fall towards the "most like solid state sound" more than any of the other tubes I've tested. Contrast this with the Telefunken and Tungsram tubes, which I would say fall towards the "least like solid state sound" end of the spectrum.
Excellent. Thanks for responding and clarifying! 👍
i’m listening with Beyerdynamic dt 1350 and the room’s acoustics are very distracting. It’s very hard to hear any differences.
Thanks for posting this review. I also read a thorough owners review on what's best forum- According to that review, with headphones the tube section is ever so slightly veiled with loss of some low level detail, compared to jfet, but the soundstage is much deeper, more evident with speakers. Also the extra gain cd be a problem with some amps ie extra noise, esp with some tubes. Wd you agree with this? I really want to buy this amp, pls convince me :)
My recommendation would be to trust your own ears. For example, some people in the comments below could hear a difference between the new production TS and JFET. I couldn't. That doesn't mean tubes sound the same as solid state for me. It just means that to my ears, I could not hear an appreciable difference between new production TS and JFET in this instance. But if you look at my other videos, you may be able to pickup the differences in sound (check out the Telefunken and Tungsram listening tests, for example). To address the point regarding the tube section being "slightly veiled with loss of some low level detail, compared to jfet." In my opinion, it depends on the tubes being used. For example, the PSVANE tubes in one of my other listening tests were quite bright and edgy to my ears. If you have a speaker system that's more laid back, the PSVANE may be a great choice. For my JBL 4343 studio monitors, however, which are extremely revealing, they weren't working for me. Regarding headphones, I use my Audeze LCD-2s for critical listening of detail...I don't use them to judge soundstage because to me, headphones collapse all the sound to just outside my ears. If you think about external speakers, both ears hear sounds from both the left and right speaker (which helps you to locate instruments in the soundstage) - unlike headphones, which totally isolate each ear from hearing the other channel. As for the point about extra gain leading to extra noise, this is true for any audio device, and with the Freya the gain of the tube stage is higher than the JFET stage. As long as you have decent power amps with a good S/N ratio, this isn't an issue. The only noticeable noise I've heard from running tubes in my system are due to microphonics in some tubes. The Freya is a great preamp that beats all others in the performance/price ratio. Hope this helps.
You don't have to remove the tubes when switching to Jfet mode
Boyan Boev yes, I know this. It serves as a visual cue for viewers.
Solid state sounds thin, tubes sound fuller and warm.
this is the key - thin
these hybrid tube amps and dac... are the tubes just for show or do the tubes really make a sonic difference. i have a vali 2 and i have 3 different brands of tubes along with the stock tube - i think 2 EH and 1 JJ - it all sounded the same to me.. but then again i am 48 years old. i also have ordered a Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB with the appropriate adapter to fit into the Vali 2 on the way.
See my new-production EH vs JJ listening test video here ua-cam.com/video/KPI60HvT-DA/v-deo.html where I had the same basic impression as you.
What I've found out is that to my ears, the new production tubes from Europe/Russia (EH/JJ/TS) sound very similar, although I preferred the EH from the three. Where I've found a noticeable difference is in comparing new production 6SN7 to new old stock 12AU7 and 6CG7 Mullards, Tungsrams and Telefunkens from Europe, and my preference was in favor of the new old stock.
Maybe try finding a new old stock set and see if you hear an appreciable difference to your ears. If not, just stop tube rolling and enjoy the music!
What is the source of the music? Analog or digital. Tubes are better at analog.
no difference for me. listening through Philips x2's
by the way i didnt hear anything about the sovtek tubes are they any good?
I don't hear much of a difference through this video if so very minor difference not worth the extra 300$ for tubs for the + model but again I'm listening to this though UA-cam so dunno thought I'd hear bigger differences tbh
Try listening to my other tests, especially the Tungsram and see if you hear any differences. If you read my comments on this test, you'll find that I couldn't hear any appreciable difference either. It would be incorrect to conclude from this test that all tubes sound similar to solid state. My conclusion was that new production Tung-Sols sound closer to solid state than just about any of my other tubes.
No difference IMO. Quite frankly, I've heard tubes before and rarely notice the difference. I can show people an entire set of stereo equipment for under 1k and it will sound like someone's system costing thousands more.
Hi,
Is it possible to measure the distortion profile in both settings? I think it'd great to measure directly from the Freya output and from the speakers, so we can verify if the differences are kept in reproduction or they are masked by the transducers
Thanks
What if the distortion differences are as inaudible as we are now hearing? But, then again my amp I am listening with sounds like tubes in a good way. Things are advancing.
clearly different : It sounds like the tubes add some warmth to the sound, it's not easy to explain but without the tube it sounded clearer
personal preference -> Tubes
I bought the freya, but on my system the difference between jfet mode and tubes is like day and night. Maybe its the youtube sound, i hardly can tell a diffence in your recording
There is a big difference in gain between the JFET and tube modes, which may or may not account for much of the "day and night" difference you hear. I touch on this in my video description. In this video, the signal levels were adjusted to match in post to eliminate volume differences as a factor in this listening test.
Yes, the volume levels are different. I meant that there is difference in the sound. For example in my setup with the tube mode the sound is more airy compared to the jfet.
I believe the amount of difference depends on the set of tubes being used. In this example with new production Russian Tung-Sols, I could not hear any appreciable difference. But contrast this result with my NOS Telefunken listening test here: ua-cam.com/video/sulIxJWGZWg/v-deo.html and you might hear a noticeable difference.
Another thing is from my point of view, things had to be simple to tell the difference. Just the preamp and amp. You know that here after passing numerous of encoding decoding the fidelity is lost. For example my is system is tube from 250hz up. and for my ears the solid state is loosing in fidelity compare to tubes. Regards for the work you have done.
No contest. I hear a difference
Sounds about the same to me.
I know you used a picture of having removed the tubes to show when the JFETs were playing. But, can you actually play it without the tubes installed?
That's no picture, it's all live video because the recorder is recording both live video and live audio in realtime. So yes, the Freya as you can see is playing in JFET mode without tubes installed. You can leave the tubes in while playing in JFET mode, but the tubes stay on even though they are not being used.
So... if you remove the tubes? You can leave it on 24/7? I like that idea... Well done. Both ways sound excellent.
No diff between the two. I hear differences between tubes in your other vid but these tubes must be very accurate and not real tubey.
Exactly my thoughts as well. To my ears, the new production Tung-Sols sound the most like solid state mode on the Freya.
there is no difference what so ever. if there any difference at all is because of difference in dc blocking capacitors. jfet all really has the miller effect and on oscilloscope and not much of difference at how they distort form tubes.
More depth with valve circuit
More "airiness" to the top end with tubes.
what about octal lisst "tubes"?
where do they fit in? i am about to buy a freya and want to know before i purchase which tubes to worry with
Sorry, I've never tried them. Since the Freya already has a JFET mode that you can switch to, I'm not sure how a solid state device plugged into the tube circuitry is an added benefit from a sound perspective.
still has the 14db gain like tube stage, just running through solid state substitute for the vaccum tube portion
so added gain like the tube stage but no tube to go microphonic and burn out
If the primary decision for buying a Freya is to get higher gain out of it and not for the "tube sound" then that's one way to do it (or buy another solid state preamp with higher output). I believe most people use a tube preamp for another reason, such as getting the "tube sound" as a result of even-order harmonics being generated when a tube is overdriven. Solid state devices (when clipping) do not generate the same harmonics as a tube (when overdriven). Here's an excellent article on the subject from a fellow electrical engineer that may be helpful: kenrockwell.com/audio/why-tubes-sound-better.htm
Well I can understand that for sure. It is worth your reviewing I think however as lots of my reading suggests people really like the octal lisst "tubes" I'm going to be buying a Freya soon and I want tube option but if I can afford it will buy the other for comparison as well
It’s definitely your room, too many reflections...Fix that first and run the test again, please. Also, like I mentioned preciously, if you might want to research the ORTF stereo recording technique...