Schiit Freya Preamp - Tube Rolling Duals Listening Test
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- Опубліковано 8 вер 2017
- Matching duals, including: CBS-Hytron 5692, Shuguang Black Treasure, PSVANE CV181-TII, and Sophia Electric. Listen for yourself as we load up the Schiit Freya gain stage and pass high-resolution music through the fully balanced 2600W system.
#tycodogg #schiitfreya #tuberolling
First thoughts:
With a Schiit Audio Freya preamp, when tube rolling with matching duals, Schiit recommends installing them in the voltage gain stage vs. the output buffer. On a Freya, the gain stage are the right-side tubes. I think matching quads makes a bigger difference than matching duals, but that's cost prohibitive for these tests with high-end tubes.
You need a very revealing playback system with extended highs and lows to hear these minute differences. If changing matched quads (as in my video, “Schiit Freya Preamp - Tube Rolling Quads Listening Test”) has a subtle (maybe 5%) difference between some tubes, tube rolling with matched duals cuts that subtle difference in half.
Here’s a quick test to see if your low frequency response is capable - at the beginning of the 2nd song (from 06:20 to 06:50) there is a very low frequency pulse that is seen in the far left bar of the spectrum graph (top meter on the Surface Pro). This pulse extends down to 20Hz on my Behringer Ultracurve Pro RTA display. At first I thought one of the performers was tapping their foot on a carpeted platform perhaps, but the pulse doesn’t seem to match the song tempo. My guess is that the mics are picking up the kickdrum from another studio room performing for a different session. At any rate, if you don’t hear that pulse, your playback system does not exhibit extended bass response down to the lowest audible frequencies.
So lets get on with my listening results:
Tube noise:
I believe tubes should be addressed individually for microphonics, and that you can’t broad-brush a particular manufacturer for this. Having said that, my new production Tung-Sols, with a very “solid state” sound (loads of bass response, as found in my quad review), seem to have become more microphonic in a short time. You can hear a “tube pop” in the right channel at 02:44, and the “noise signature” changes for the better at 02:56 when the dual CBS-Hytron 5692s are swapped in.
Now, how the heck does a 60-year old pair of tubes outperform new production? Does the old adage, “They don’t make them like the used to?” ring true for vacuum tubes? To try and answer this question, you have to place yourself in both tube factories at the time these tubes were made. The CBS-Hytron 5692s were made in the late 50s. WWII was over, but still fresh in the minds of Americans. These 5692s were purpose built for critical military applications, where a part failure has very high stakes. They were over-designed for rugged reliability in harsh environments. If you’ve ever held a 5692 tube, it feels different in your hand compared to other 6SN7s. It’s heavier and more solid compared to most other tubes, which feel delicate in comparion (like a light bulb). In order to earn the JAN (Joint Army Navy) designation, samples had to pass a strict QA process or the whole batch is rejected. I believe the people who built 5692 tubes took pride in their work, understood what was at stake if one failed, and didn’t settle for “good enough”.
Contrast this with the new production Tung-Sols. Today’s tube industry is a niche market. There are no longer military applications for tubes (that I know of). I’ve heard that nothing gets wasted, and that tubes that aren’t quite up to spec are sold in secondary markets for cheap. Lives are no longer on the line if a new production tube fails...so stakes are much lower. All of these things are reflected in the final product.
Sound quality:
First off, these tubes have more in common than they have differences. They all sound good in my system and will get you 90% of the way. Any differences that I picked up are slight and subjective. The sound I prefer may not be to your liking, and vice versa.
CBS-Hytron 5692 (1st Place). Low noise floor, with no pops, ringing or any other strange microphonics that some of the other tubes exhibited. Just a nice, smooth, consistent layer of “tube hiss” below the music as a reminder that you are indeed listening to tubes and not solid state. Midrange vocals are full, with tight and well-controlled high frequencies that are not the least bit harsh. Musical, refined and well-controlled, disciplined sound. I want to buy another matched pair and make this a quad set!
Shuguang Treasure CV181-2 (2nd Place). Slightly more forward high frequencies compared to the 5692, and they are well controlled and not fatiguing. Although it may not show in the music choices for this listening test, the Shuguangs have an airy, wide feel about them which I enjoy. These are my favorite of the Chinese tubes that I own.
Sophia Electric 6SN7 Grade A (3rd Place). These can actually be tied for 2nd place with the Shuguangs but for different reasons. As mentioned in my previous listening test against the vintage Raytheons, these had a great, extended bass response that I enjoyed. The highs are more laid back than the Shuguangs, which makes for long and easy listening sessions on my all Alnico JBL 4343s studio monitors. Owners of JBLs with alnico magnets know all too well that the last thing you want is a tube with an emphasized high frequency edge, which makes the Sophia Electrics a great choice for everyday listening.
PSVANE CV181-TII (4th Place). If you have a system that leans towards the more laid back, non-bright side, the PSVANEs might be just the ticket for you. Unfortunately, I couldn’t recommend them for my system. The JBL compression drivers from the 1970s are huge monsters (Google search a JBL 2420 driver). Extremely efficient and revealing. Couple that with the Alnico magnet structures of the early generations and you’ll understand why a more warm-sounding tube is preferred. The PSVANE tubes are bright and give a pronounced edge to vocals. I can see these being fatiguing with my JBL 4343s.
TUNG-SOL New Production 6SN7 GTB (For Reference Only). I decided to include the Tung-Sols as a reference to my previous listening tests. Of my matching quad sets, the Tung-Sols most closely matched the sound of solid state, with great bass response. They wouldn’t be my first choice for critical listening though, being rather noisy and microphonic.
Judging from the pics you've elevated the tubes with sockets savers. Two questions. 1 Where did you purchase the savers and 2. have you had any issues with them with respect to either installation in and/or removal from the Freya? My current favorite 6SN7 pairings with the Freya has early 1950s NOS National Union GTs in the gain section with Sylvania GTAs (also NOS, circa 1953) as followers. (An aside. I actually prefer the NUs over the often much pricier 1940 vintage gray glass KenRad VT231s in my Cary SLP-05. Ken Rads win for the monster bass but the NUs have the more fluid over tonality. I've yet to test the Ken Rads In the Freya.) Early 1950s Tungsol GTs (not the round plate, the ones made concurrently with the so called mouse ears) combined with mid `50s CBS/Hytron GTs produces a bit less bass compared to the NUs and etc. but is equally liquid and clear. RCA GTs (mid 40s vintage, so more or less equal to VT231s) in the gain sound great when paired with Sylvania GTBs. (Quality vintage RCAs - 1940s especially - have that great "sounds like tubes" sound.) In my opinion, Sylvania GTBs wipe the floor with modern/Russian made Tungsols - and can often be had in NOS condition for more or less the same price. (The new Tungsols aren't by any means bad, just ordinary sounding.)
Hi Scott RS, thanks for your valuable insight. The socket savers were from Parts Connexion in Canada. Don't buy the ones from Antique Electronic Supply, as those are too wide to drop down through the Freya chassis openings. To install the socket savers, I just partially attached them to a tube, and then used the tube as a holder to install. How do you like the Cary preamp? I was considering the SLP-05 because it has balanced outputs like the Freya. NOS Tung-Sols are on my wishlist, but I think I need to invest in quads vs duals going forward to maximize any sonic difference to my ears. NOS matched quads of Amperex Holland and 6SN7W Philips USA are slated for the next listening test.
The (now $9,000.00 retail) Cary is all that and more in terms of both sound and construction. Though both are 6SN7 based, there's just no way to compare it to the Freya. Even so, the Freya just kills the Cary in terms of value. (I'm actually looking to purchase a second one for use in another part of my house.) I've tried both quad/matched Sylvanias (both early 1950s GTAs and mid 50's GTBs) and quad/matched CBS/Hytron GTs in the Freya and preferred those same tubes in combination with others. That said, I would certainly be interested in hearing your perspective on your own quad sets. (Though note, per the 6SN7 reference page: "ALL Amperex tubes on the market are Russian relabels. The Ameperex tube looked suspiciously like a Sovtek, right down to the 'flying saucer' getter. Amperex catalogs have been checked and verified to prove that Amperex never made a 6SN7 tube."
Hi David, I don't know for sure if the Shuguang's ceramic base clears the Freya opening. I use the socket savers because I do a lot of tube swapping for these videos and don't want to wear out the Freya's sockets.
Hi there. Thanks for this video. Are these the socket savers you recommend?
www.partsconnexion.com/SOCKET-74489.html
Inquiring minds (and those interested in trying out those Shuguangs in the Freya) want to know. Thanks so much!
Despite the obvious limits of listening through UA-cam, this was actually very well done and helpful. Personally I really liked the Sophia Electrics. Thanks!
Thanks for the kind words. Much appreciated! It's surprising to many people that there is actually enough resolution in 4K UA-cam to hear much of the tube differences, as long as the audio is handled appropriately in recording, editing and exporting.
I'm with you. Those Sophia's just made the music come alive. More body in the music than the others in the video, a smoothness, and extensions in mids and lows. Maybe not as detailed in the highs but certainly not rolled off...just laid back and relaxing. Definitely what I'm looking for to balance out my slightly over revealing preamp and monitors.
those sophia electric look like re-labeled tj full music. i have IDd a few of their tubes as rebrandedfn TJ full music. this one sure looks like it.
Great video and lots of hard work!
Thanks Doan, much appreciated!
Another wonderful video. This one’s harder to choose.
A great choice of music, Ms Carla Lother's rendition of Spanish Harlem does the song proudly. You have great playback gear, so all the tubes you have, present an easy relaxed sound. The least warm sound came from the Tun-Sol - it was good, low distortion but the midbass had a little less body behind it- but it was good none the less. Thanks for the explanation of each tube - it's type, maker, application, and the other details -It's important to me as a HiFi guy and as a kit builder Thanks for your video editing and your hard work. Gman777
Another useful video, thank you. There is quite a noticeable difference between those tubes, and I definitely had a couple I preferred (interestingly, I just listened to that recording this past weekend, so it was a fine choice for me).
Tyco Dogg, thanks for putting some great-sounding stuff on here. I myself could not discern any decisive differences between these hi-end tubes ( thought I might prefer the CBS a bit -- more well-balanced overall, maybe?) . I suppose I'd go with any based more on price than sound quality.
Do you really think so? Because I moved the visuals out of view to try to hear any differences so I wouldn't be biased and I couldn't here any difference.
There is no difference at all!
@@eatdrinkwineguy I have very good ears and i am listening to other videos on youtube and hearing a lot of difference in many of them.Here not at all!
I liked the ps bane the best! Great vid, I bet that was lot of work!
Those created the most tubey sound to my ears. The bass sounded far more resonant than the other. I like it but I could see others thinking it was too much.
This is cool. Great to have found this.
Thank you so much for your insightful tube rolling. I really appreciate your attention to detail in setting this up so that the tubes can be evaluated properly. One aspect of tubes that should also be taken into account is tube reliability which is another topic all together in deciding which tube to purchase. From my evaluation listening through a pair of Etymotic Research ER4 earphones and my personal sound bias, I would rate the tubes based on sound as follows.
1) PSVANE CV181-TII
2) Shuguang Black Treasure
3) CBS-Hytron
4) Tung-Sol
5) Sophia Electric
Thanks for the kind words, Peter! And thank you for contributing to the discussion.
Wow tube rolling is kinda like amp rolling....
Nice video!
The Hytrons were great, the Sophia electrics added this glow around the vocals that I just loved. The shugangs seemed a bit sibilant to me
This guy has me listening to Carla lother now. I just pulled her up in my Rhapsody account. Tongue sold tubes are amazing in every way. It's like adding THX sound system to your system
Spanish harlem at its best :) even on my SS setup it sounds divine.. cant imagine with tubes
Outstanding
The military tubes are somewhere between neutral and a warm natural to my ears... Weird but a good sort of weird. That might be my favorite of all I've heard you record. Almost exactly like tung-sol but more airyness in the highs but not quite as much as those JJ tubes. Those are actually really nice I enjoy those tubes.
Agree, GregLH0. The 5692s were very well behaved in the upper-midrange and highs. I enjoyed the sound so much that I bought another 5692 pair. Due to their unique triple mica spacer construction, microphonics is very low, even beating the new production Tung-Sols in this regard. Stay tuned for the next listening test which includes a very hard to find pair of NOS Tungsram, which sound very good.
e s
Thanks 🙏
CBS JAN clear winner in soundstage, transparency. Voices more immediate and closer. I've tried them all in my MFA Luminescence and found Hytrons near as good as my #1 matched Sylvania '52 Badboys, true quiet ones being very difficult to get.
Our Take: 😎🌳😎🌳
Tungsols=Well balanced in all frequencies.(Medium Width) Nice 👍
Jan-Chy 5292=Warm base lots of Harmonics (Huge width)
PsVane= Warm Base/Mids-Medium Harmonics (Medium width)
Black Treassure=Soft warmth/Pretty Mids-soft Harmonics (Low/Medium width)
Sophia Electric=Warm Base + mid Harmonics (Large width)
jan 5692 highs and lows well balance especially the lows very smooth
CBS 5692 ftw! I used my HD800s for the vid.
The JAN 5692 sounded a little softer in there tone and a little more open but not by much the PVSANE also very nice, the differences were minimal so again it comes down to synergy with your system and cost of course.
I like the sophia electrics the best, but I could live with four tung-sols.
I use PSVane in my Freya+ ... it was one of the bigger leaps of improvement I’ve experienced ... over the noisy JJ Tesla tubes the preamp came with. One thing I notice though, the larger Chinese HIFI tubes just barely fit into the pin sockets before the glass bulb gets stopped by the casing.
Socket savers can help with the clearance issue in the Freya. I use the one from Parts Connexion which clears the chassis opening. One thing I noticed with the Psvanes is that they sound brighter to me, and would pair nicely with speakers having a more laid back, relaxed sound. I wouldn't recommend using them with speakers that use efficient high frequency drivers and/or ones with metal domes, as they sounded a bit harsh on my JBL 4343s.
Thanks for the info on the socket savers. The PSVanes pair nicely with my warm sounding LP12 deck and fairly neutral Gallo loudspeakers. Ironically I’m in the process of building a high efficiency set of horn-loaded units. We’ll see I guess 😁
I like the PCVane. But all are pretty decent. The Sophia are nice, never had a chance to appreciate them.
Hell she's got a lovely singing voice and unusual for these days you can understand every word she says 😆👍 All the tubes sound pretty good.
Does anyone else notice considerable noise when using the tube stage? Tried a few different tubes, and I just can't get it down to "whisper quiet" which Schiit claim on their website.
How do you get the tubes to stand up so high? Everywhere else I see a pic of the Freya the tube bases seem to recess.
Probably using a socket saver as the Freya is reputed to be rather fragile (sockets mounted on board). This way you can roll tubes without risking permanently damaging the original socket.
Hi there! I'm looking to get my first headphone setup, I really fancy a tube amp setup but i want something budget friendly. I have a computer with optical out and i thought a good setup could be the Schiit Modi coupled to the schiit Vali with the Massdrop AKG K7XX headphones. My main use will be jazz, rock, classical & to connect it to my ps4 to game, as it also has optical out. Do you think this set up is worth it? Or is there anything you would change or add to get the most out of my money? Maybe invest more on headphones might be really worth it? What do you think?Thanks!!
Maybe even switch out the Valis tube with a higher grade one? What do u think?
Great Work - Thank you. What software do you have going on your screen. I want to see that while I am listening to music also. many thx - Cheers'
Thanks! It's Foobar2000
Hi Mr Tyco, thank you for the clear audio recording. I have KEF LS50Meta, which tube do you recommend. I prefer detailed sound with sparkles. BTW, the tube on the left did not change, are those buffer? Sorry I am totally new to tube amp.
Hi Dave, for airy, clean top end, I like the Electro-Harmonix tubes, which were tested in another video. Of the tubes in this video, the Psvane had more top end but sounded edgy on my speakers. If your speakers are more laid back you might enjoy the sound of Psvane. As for why the tubes on the left of my preamp didn't change, that's the output buffer stage. When testing dual tube sets with the Freya, swapping out the voltage gain stage (tubes on the right) is what you want to do.
At a best bang for the buck, PSVaine all the way. The Sophia Electronics we're the best sounding.
5692 followed by the Sophia. But in the comparison video with the Raytheon NOS, I preferred the Raytheon.
Treasures and Sophias were the best.
Hello, from your tests so far, which 6SN7 tubes do you prefer for warm holographic sound? New and old production. Thank your help and for the great videos
Thanks Ouafi! For a warm sound, the NOS Sylvanias are nice and they're not too difficult to find. Raytheon is also warm sounding to my ears. For that wide and airy sound, which you may think of as holographic, the new production Electro-Harmonix are hard to beat.
@@TycoDogg Thank you for your prompt reply. In this video, you seem to recommend Hytron 6SN7. How do these sound compared to Sylvanias? I also have the possibility to buy PVSANE treasure if they are any good
@@OSQQ123 CBS-Hytrons are nice if you can find a good set. They can be pricey and hard to find. As for new production Chinese tubes, I like the sound of the Shuguangs best
Hi! It is not entirely correct to ask a question about holographic sound to the owner of JBL, he may not understand you. If you have Spendor/Harbeth/Dynaudio or something similar, then only then the interlocutor can understand what you are asking. I will try to answer your question. Tung-sol are quite holographic, more balanced than cheap Chinese Shu-guang, however, there is more holography in Shu-guang (I have 6ns7 Triode amplifier tubes), in the HF area they are worse and generally less balanced. There is a discussion of CV181 Psvane tubes on the Stereonet forum, I want to say that the holography completely disappeared in my amplifier when I installed these tubes, I found several people who own the same tubes, and they fully supported me in my conclusions. I also installed the shower version of Psvane 6sn7 with a white base and it showed the presence of holography, but the sound is terrible, so I stay away from the Psvane tubes. Judging by the sound in this video, I would be looking for a warm holographic sound from Shuguang or Sophia, which I liked the most of all the tubes. However, I cannot objectively evaluate the sound in this video in that setup. I will add that Tung-sol is not an ideal tube for my taste, although it is very good. Good luck!)
Gold base Psvane, wow!
Wonderful share! I am in need of assistance in knowing how to determine what tubes will work in this phono preamp unit. How do you know these four tube options you selected would fit/work? Thanks!
Thanks MK. Your best bet is to use the tube model(s) recommended by your preamp manufacturer. As for the brand and using NOS vs new production, that's a subjective decision and totally up to you and your ears.
Wonderful. Thank you! I must restate how impressed my wife and I are with your A/B sound listening videos comparing tube sets: very enjoyable and very helpful being introduced to different tubes.
I appreciate the kind words, MK! It's easy to fall into the tube rolling trap, since there are so many choices and price points. I hope these videos offer some sort of objective A/B comparison so my channel viewers can make an informed decision using their own ears.
Your videos are both informative and highly entertaining. Thanks for your reply!
I believe that Schiit was wrong in the construction of this preamplifier. I have one and I love it, but I believe the project has been misguided when it comes to matching the tubes.
As for the gain tubes (right side, next to the XLR inlets), Schiit recommends the 6SN7, but they say it works with the 6SL7 as well. The fact is that the 6SL7, although not a famous tube, has twice the gain of the 6SN7, that is, it allows the same volume level to be achieved with a smaller scale of the knob.
On the other hand, with regard to the outlet tubes (on the left side, next to the XLR outlets), these must be the 6SN7. As these tubes control the output impedance, if we use the 6SL7 the preamplifier will not be able to control virtually any modern amplifier on the market. This in terms of impedance. But, the 6SN7 on the outputs turn it into a preamp that plays much more than it costs. In terms of matching the project, 6SL7 at the inputs (which amplify the signal) and 6SN7 at the output are the best combination.
However, if gain or more power is not essential, eventually using better 6SN7 in the gain stage can result in something superior.
Sophia, but to be honest I wouldn't pay whatever the difference between the cheapest and most expensive is for any of them.
The difference in sound quality isn't enough to justify the difference in cost imo.
I my self liked the bigger tubes in certain instances. I just started to tube roll. Started with my hybrid amp with tubed preamp stage to electronic main stage. Pre amp original are JAN 5654w and I recently bought a matched pair of 403B. I’m planning to obtain two more matched pairs. A Russian made 6✖️1n-EB tubes and Voskhod Rocket 6J1P-EV/ 6ZH1P-EV Matched couples. Russian. What do you think? Should I or am I just being picky? Will I hear actual gains or not. I would like to hear of your experience with these tubes if possible.
Your system sounds quite enjoyable. Unfortunately, my experience is limited to 6SN7 and 12AU7 type tubes. As long as they sound good to your ears, that's all that matters.
Wouldn't it make more sense to just run the line out directly into the audio interface that way it comes through as transparently as possible because micing a speaker cabinet is revealing more the speaker and mic then the preamp. Ive done a video with a schiit loki in this way and it makes for an excellent way to get a feel for the sound. making it far closer to as it were in your own setup.
Very good review! And very relevant to my current quest. I have the Freya + with Tung-Sols. I have a Chord Quetest DAC and 99% of listening is USB streaming. I was contemplating the Psvane tubes for the output stage as a potential upgrade. Based on the review I am wondering if spending close to $300 is a cost effective upgrade?? What is your opinion on the tubes I should try and is it worth it?
Thanks Bill! The question you have to ask yourself is what different type of sound are you looking for other than what you're currently hearing with the Tung-Sol tubes. In my experience the Psvane tubes sounded bright to me through my speakers, and my JBL4343s are very revealing on the highs, so it was too much for my liking. If your speakers are smooth with relaxed/laid back highs, the Psvanes may sound great in your system.
@@TycoDoggI have Golden Ear Triton IIs. Bass and soundstage are my driving parameters. Where would you purchase the Psvanes. Viva hs in the last view days had about a 30% increase, Amazon prices fro Psvane are still the same. Do you have any experience with buying from thE Psvane store.
@@billstrum3203 unfortunately, we'll be seeing markups across the board on tubes due to the current events happening right now. My experience with Tung-Sols is that they have excellent bass, but sounded nearly identical to the solid state mode on my Freya. I liked the soundstage and airy highs on the Electro-Harmonix, but might be difficult to purchase without paying a big markup. My general recommendation is to only buy tubes that have been tested for microphonics.
@@TycoDogg There is a major difference between the solid stage mode and the tube mode (Tung-Sols). I hear a much more defined and broader soundstage and more depth. I use the solid state mode for talking head TV shows.
I have seen discussions on microphonic issues with some tubes after some period of use. What Freya candidates are considered microphonic "safe" I have dampers on my Tung-Sols, is this just wishful thinking as a microphonic damper?
i notice no change in voice at all. in the instruments a little bit, this may be due to the volume increase in the song.
from all your testing, what ended up as your favorite?
Hi Timothy that's a great question. I'm hoping to summarize all my personal findings in an upcoming video.
@@TycoDogg I am using quad rca for now. So far best match.
#1 Sophia electric #2 JAN 5692. I really thought the JAN tubes would be the clear winner.
Hi Tyco Dogg:
Can you tell me in which exactly page do you bought the Psvane TII series vacuum tubes?
I'm concern about the chinese pirate tubes.
Thank you.
Hi Epigmenio, this is just my opinion, but I think the bigger concern is not about non-genuine tubes, but rather the actual test performance of the tubes you are buying. Performance can vary greatly between tubes of the same brand. You may find a great price for the same tube, but the tube could have been sold by the manufacturer to a secondary market because they didn't test well. This is why I pay extra for matched and balanced tubes, if such testing is available. If you're interested in purchasing the exact Psvane TII tubes used in this test, let me know and I'll sell you my pair.
Thank you for your answer and I completely agree with what you say. It is the reason that I ask you (beg you) to tell me where you bought them so I don't take the risk of purchase pirate or badly tested tubes.
Thanks for the offer, unfortunately I need different types of bulbs than yours. I need four KT88 tubes.
Thanks again.
Try Grant Fidelity: psvanetube.com/wordpress/store/products/kt88-tii-quad/
Warm regards.
@@TycoDogg I need one Psvane TII tube only... I want to try it with my Darkvoice 336SE amp. I use Sennheiser HD-600-650 and 800 with it. If you still have them pls write me your contact details noyandemirtas@gmail.com
Any chance you could make the original files available out of UA-cam? You may or may not be aware of how much post processing UA-cam dose.
Excuse the late reply. For a couple of reasons, I'm hesitant to share the master file: 1) The listening test master video files are 3-5Gb in size. 2) I'd rather not risk any legal issues with distributing licensed music. If I ever decide to do a listening test using royalty-free music, then maybe I would provide a download link, but no promises. IMHO there is plenty of audio quality present in the UA-cam version to hear differences if they're there.
To my ears the Tung-Sol sound the best, I have them in all my BAT audio equipment and amplifiers. I have the PSVane in my Felisk Euphoria headphone amp.
Can you do a review on the 6sn7 electro harmonix gold pins tubes?
@Tyco Dog That was a great review. Appreciate your comments and how you rate them.
I have a question. My amp is not balanced it uses Single ended RCA.
Do you think there is much of a difference in the sound quality between the Frey’s and the Saga?
Thanks for the kind words, Clark! Although I can't speak about the sound quality of the Saga because I don't own one, I am a fan of Schiit products and their company philosophy. They also have great customer service after the sale. I say buy the Saga with confidence, and when the tube rolling bug gets you, step up to the Freya and enjoy a quad set of fine tubes.
@ Tyco Dogg Thanks
Can anyone tell me with certainty what sampling frequency this UA-cam video is playing back at (when in high resolution mode)? I've read that it can be 44.1 or 48khz, not higher. But how would one know if a particular video is 44.1 or 48 unless the uploader tells you? I don't want to be resampling.
The original uploaded video is 48kHz...not sure what YT does as far as any sample rate conversion.
ok so I got an tube buffer from yaqin with some Klipsch rf-83 horn speakers , i have some psvane 6sn7 hifi tubes on it, its very exaggerated and tiring when listening, my setup is Yamaha-as1200 , yaqin tube buffer with psvane 6sn7 hifi brown base, and a Hegel hd12dac with a Mac mini and usb, and the Klipsch fr-83 , I can hear the tube buffer helps a little bit, maybe a little softer on the top end and little more 3d soundstage wider. I want some warm sounding top endt tubes with holographic wide soundstage and maybe some gooey sirupy nice sound and also detailed, I can lose some LF range because its to muddy in LF with those speakers to much Bass
what can you recommend ? regards Leif Norway
Hi Lief, I too have found the Psvane tubes too bright for my ears with my JBL 4343s which also are horn loaded. I haven't used the Psvanes in my system since this review. I would think they are ideal for a more laid back speaker, like ones with a soft dome tweeter...definitely not a metal dome and not horn loaded. You might want to try a NOS Sylvania or RCA which are said to have a more relaxed character that might complement your more forward-sounding Klipsch speakers.
The Sophia Electrics are my preference, I wish they weren’t sold out
Whats your opinion on the Psvane vs the rest? It's difficult to judge from a UA-cam video.
What about against the Shuguangs?
Have the valves their minimum burning time?
I have a pair of Shuguangs CV-181-Z and I really like them A LOT, but I'm doubtful about them vs the Psvanes. I like very much also Psvane valves, but havent tried their CV-181-Z valves.
Hi Pedro, please read my pinned comments for a complete review of the tubes in this test, including the Psvane.
@@TycoDogg I'm sorry for my ignorance. What is a pinned comment?
@@pedroluisguillemain5683 Look for the comment that I posted about 3 years ago that starts off with, "First thoughts: With a Schiit Audio Freya preamp..." For every listening test that I made on my channel, I have my detailed review in the comments section.
FR difference comparison would be the best way to show what rolling does. In audacity invert one tube then mix it with the stock tubes, this have the least amount of bias.
Personally I enjoyed the PSVANE tubes. I found myself noticing more space/clarity and breath. Would you recommend this as a phono preamp or do recommend others? I like the price point.
I take that back after listing with my Grado headphones the PSVANE was flat on the Base, good treble not so much the base. Thanks for the review! The PAN tubes sounded very balanced.
It's just my opinion, but anyone using a more neutral sounding system can consider PSVANE tubes if they favor new production tubes made in China. They are a brighter sounding tube, and I've mentioned in the past regarding my JBL 4343 studio monitors, my system sounds better with tubes that are not overly bright. So, while the PSVANE may not be suitable for my system, another more relaxed, laid back system may really shine with these. Regarding your phono preamp question, I don't believe the Freya has a phono stage...all its inputs are line level. Maybe check their website to be sure.
@@TycoDogg Do you have a reccomendation for a Marantz 3250b + 170dc combination? Wise to add a Schiit tube amp to that and then which tubes?
Never used tubes before but curious.
@@nobnobog8870 Hi, it's just my opinion, but your speaker choice and personal listening preferences should have more weight in determining the tubes you want to run. If you wanted to get into tube rolling with your Marantz setup, then a tube preamp can be added - hook up your sources to the preamp and enjoy. Are your speakers on the bright side, or more relaxed and smooth? In my experience, PSVANE tubes are bright, Sylvanias are laid back. I'd avoid pairing bright speakers with a bright-sounding tube, or you risk getting too much edginess in the sound. Personally, I prefer the 12AU7 or 6CG7 tubes (using appropriate adapters) over the 6SN7 tubes in my Freya...more choices, less microphonics. It's important to keep your tube rolling expectations in check, however. It's not a night-day difference, but more like a 10% difference that's only noticeable when you do an A-B comparison. Still, I enjoy the experience and blending of old-world craftsmanship with modern tech. Best of luck.
Maybe a dumb question but the Freya+ would have to go before my 3250b pre-amp right? Also the NOS Telefunken ECC82 sound well on your other video but very expensive. If i am going to buy such special tubes in the end i hope i won't get some fakeys.
Guitarist recovers from mistake well at end of song?
Focusrite was great )) PSVANE seems has a bit wider stage (more details, an opposite phase of 2nd harmonic?..) Sophia was less confident at low end.
JAN 5692 are most organic and balanced.
I agree they sounded the most neutral, but the Shuguang Black Treasure have a lovely rich midrange that sounde great in this instance (UA-cam compression etc.).
I thought that You Tube compresses the sound regardless on videos. Is this not the case? If so how is it really possible to tell any real difference. This is a serious question not a complaint.
This is a great question. Based on my 15+ years of experience as a video editor for broadcast and streaming, just about every video/audio format available to consumers is compressed. That includes Blu-ray, 4k Blu-ray, Dolby Cinema, IMAX, satellite TV, Netflix, etc. The only major difference is the amount of compression. It's a balance between quality and practicality. Unless you are actually sitting in front of a live performance, a purist can say everything else is a compromise. I don't know of a source for streaming pure uncompressed audio over the internet, and certainly that probably won't happen when it comes to audio/video because a truly uncompressed audio/video file is gigantic. The bottom line is this: If you have a great playback system for watching my UA-cam videos and you can't hear any differences at all in any of my videos, you probably will be disappointed in spending money on tube rolling...just sit back and enjoy the music, because that's what it's really all about.
Tyco Dogg TIDAL HI-FI streams uncompressed audio
Hello Sir. May I know which kind of tungsols did you use in this video, coz there are different kinds of tungsols. Thanks a lot 💖
New production 6SN7
I'm really having a hard time picking out the difference... .on my XDA-2->Freya+ ->Vidar ->RP-600Ms. Hearing tubes in person would/could/should be easy to hear. The XDA-2 is not exactly a detail monster, so it could be that. The other thing I've found is that quick a-b is not always the best way to hear differences. Sit with a tube for a week and then switch. It will be like night and day.
Try my Tesla tube listening test (Tube vs Solid State III). So far, that test provided one of the best examples of audible differences to my ears.
Psvane were the only ones I noticed had a different sound.
On the Freya+, if I need to upgrade the tubes do I need to change all four or just one pair?
You can either do matched pairs (added to the gain stage - front left and rear-left) or matched quads.
Match pairs or quads for better quality sound?
@@TycoDogg Hi I value new knowledge you give from.your videos. You seem very well versed with schiit freya amps and I hope i can get your views. I am intending to get a Schiit Freya + amp connected to Node 2i Bluesound and connect it to my XTZ A 2-300 power amp. You think this would make a signifcant audio difference compared to connecting my Node 2i with my Onkyo AVR RZ 830 reciever to my XTZ Power Amp? Appreciate your thoughts.
@@rsmeshramesh6914 I appreciate your kind words. Unfortunately, I don't have any experience with the other gear you mentioned, but they all seem capable of delivering good sound. In my opinion, the biggest gains in sound reproduction come from your choice of speakers and the effort to control room modes via absorption/diffusion panels, more than any electronic component.
@@TycoDogg Thanks for your response. I have set up some acoustic panels in my home. And have a set of Klipsch speakers RP6000f and a Marantz UD 7007 SACD/CD/Blueray player. Now am just looking at this whole world of preamps and a digital streamer to further enhance my sound quality. So chanced upon this Freya + which you have presented as a preamp which is getting rave reviews eslewhere too. I have always been i intrigued by tube sound signature; but have never gotten them. All my equipments in terms of amp and power amps are solid state. So this is the first time am thinking of venturing into tubes as in Freya + preamp. Never got a preamp before too. Hope it will enhance my audio journey.
did anyone else think the tung sols sounded best?
It would be nice if you put links in the description as to where to purchase the listed tubes.
While that sounds like it might be a good idea on the surface, I don't want to give the impression that I endorse certain vendors. "Buyer Beware" has never been more true when it comes to tubes, especially NOS. I've had great luck buying used tubes off of eBay, and have had a terrible experience buying brand new tubes from a "reputable" tube vendor. A buyer must educate themselves and do their homework when buying tubes in order to minimize the chances of a bad experience.
@@TycoDogg I thought it would be a source because I can't find the Sophia 6SN7
Hi, what is the difference between left side tube vs right side tubes? Someone recommended GTA and GTB tubes, which side the tube go?
The tubes at the front-right and back-right positions are the gain stage, and are said to have more of an effect on the sound compared to the front-left and back-left tubes, which are the output buffer stage. 6SN7 GTAs and 6SN7 GTBs are interchangeable and I personally don't think I would hear any difference between GTA and GTB, with everything else being equal.
@@TycoDogg thx so much, finally making some sense to me.
@@TycoDoggDogg what do you recommend for the tubes for the schiit Freya?
@@timothy-audiostuff5289 that's a tough question to answer, because everyone hears differently and has their own preferences. Also sound systems are so diverse as well. For this reason, I never put my personal preferences at the end of my listening test videos. Everyone should be free from my influence, to choose for themselves what sounds good to them. One day soon, I'll do a "Tyco Dogg's Best Tube Choices" video, because I definitely have tubes that I favor for certain types of music. I recommend just watching all of my videos, and if a set of tubes stand out to you, take a closer look at them.
@@TycoDogg From reviews I read, GTA gives better imaging and GTB is warmer. To achieve better imaging, put it on the right position with GTA?
Thank you for doing this, oh man... I was about to buy the Schiit Freya, but don't know which tube to buy... then you came along! Thank you x 10. In your experience, which tubes provides the best bass response? I find most tube preamps weak in bass (it does not need to be House Music Bass of course). And if you can point me to where I can get your recommendation, I would be very grateful.
You're welcome, Barney. Personally, the NOS Tungsram 6CG7s from Hungary are my favorite when it comes to deep, strong bass. Unfortunately, they can be difficult to find (I sourced my quad set from 2 different sellers in Italy). For tight, punchy bass, the new production Genalex 12AU7s from Russia are my choice. Note that adapters are required to use 6CG7s and 12AU7s in the Freya. If you stick with 6SN7 tubes, the new production Tung-Sols sound very similar to solid state. As for the statement about tube preamps lacking bass, I don't find that's the case with the Freya. I have a couple of songs in my playlist that reach down to 20Hz (verified by the RTA on my Behringer) and they really work the dual 15" subs. Try checking with Upscale Audio or other tube vendors that test and match each set - it's worth the extra cost. Good luck!
thank YOU! Where can one get the adaptors? What words should I use to search for these adaptors, that would fit the Freya? Sorry, I'm a noob/virgin here, wrt tubes. And if you would have to pick only one for best bass, would it be NOS TUNGSRAM 6CG7 or the GENALEX 12AU7?
The Ken-Rad VT-231 staggered plates has the reputation of being king of bass when it comes to 6SN7's. I got a pair for my Freya Plus gain stage and have to agree.
I use a pair of GE 6SN7GTA in the buffer stage.
@@kenwynn9561 It's not easy to Ken-Rad VT-231, if you come across let me know. How much did you pay for it?
@@wiebl5266 Got mine from Malaysia, a matched pair from 1943 in original cartons (US Army Signal Corps.) cost me £250 for the pair. Pre Amp Tubes last a long time, so still value for money in my opinion.
😎💯
Thanks tight production but what about your opinion ? your the audio file guy.
My detailed opinion is pinned in the comment section of every video.
Hi Tyco, nice review!!. I'll buy a socket savers for my Freya. Would you tell me exact number part in Parts Connexion? Thanks
Thanks Faraon! I think these are the ones: www.partsconnexion.com/SOCKET-74489.html
Thank you Tyco. Warm regards.
Faraon Regio will the socket saver change the sound quality at all? I think it is a good accessory.
I think i could here some diffence but its difficult to isolate. If you played the same 10seconds of song back to back it would be easier. I enjoyed listening very much. Thank you.
Thanks for the feedback and your suggestion, which I'll try on the next test. I invite you to check out my latest listening test using the Tesla tubes and you might be surprised at the difference in soundstage.
@@TycoDogg This was a fun video.
@@TycoDogg I listened to your suggested video. Wow. Those tesla tubes are sweet.
Nice demo. Would be better if the two songs were more varied.
Now lets see the test on a "real" tube preamp. The Schitt is designed to act and sound more like a SS than any tube amp on the market. Even with tubes the charts show it displays almost NO harmonic distortion in levels most people can hear. I know that amp, having owned one, and tubes do help a bit, however, I'd like to hear that test done with, say a Canary CA-906 or a Cary, or DeHavilland, or Aric...just an idea. The test and equipment you have is good, but again, to display any real sonic differences of the tubes, (beyond what people imagine themselves to hear,) more harmonic distortion will be needed. Even better, would be actually measuring their outputs showing comparisons, say with a Fourier Transform (FFT), or a typical frequency spectrum response display. Thanks for the interesting test. Excellent choice of music by the way, but also perhaps a symphonic piece would help too.
Well, this just made it obvious to me I don't need to worry about which tubes I use as my ears couldn't distinguish any differences. Age I guess.
Try one more listening test, the Tesla tubes (ua-cam.com/video/Zbe6QqQ9ii4/v-deo.html) and if you cannot hear the shifting soundstage when switching between tube and solid state, then I'd recommend spending your money on other audio components like speakers (which will actually make more of a sonic difference than anything else).
Tyco Dogg Will try. Thanks for the response.
needs to be the same audio section repeating for each tube to properly compare
they all sound the same
I prefer the PSVANE CV181-TII tubes. A fuller sound with better micro resolution... :)
BTW Tyco, Get a nice PrimaLuna tube amp for your mids and highs and change your life! lol
Salvatore, that's a great idea! I just re-visited their website and see that their new Evo 400 has XLR inputs. Might have to do some research.
I would buy a sugden for me
@@TycoDogg and it'll change your bank account... Regular price $4,499.00 !
Sophia electric sounds better dynamic and opened sound
And also grossly overpriced.
Sophia best
What exactly the Focusrite do? In term of connection?
It provides digital to balanced analog audio conversion and volume control.
Black treasures no contest.
Hey boss, just got the ShuGuang CV181-Z tube and no markings of GF Select... are the GF a one time deal?
Hey Tony, you might be right. I don't see the GF Select grade on the Grant Fidelity site anymore. Maybe send them an email?
@@TycoDogg thanks, I'll get a hold of them.
Funny, the CBS didn’t cut it for me, there’s almost like a bloom in the sound which I’m not a fan of. But otherwise, my ranking came in the same as your…
1) Shuguang Black Treasure
2) Sophia Electric
4) PSVANE
3) Tung-Sol
5) CBS
Dude can someone tell me WHERE you get those legit Treasures from ? There are no shanuangs with "gf select" on the internet, all I can't find are ones without that and ones that look like knock offs on ebay
Hi Jason, it looks like Grant Fidelity no longer offers this particular tube. Maybe contact them to find out for sure? It's basically a Shuguang tube that has been QC tested and confirmed as matched. If another vendor offers this service then it should be equivalent in performance.
Buffer on the right, gain on the left
Incorrect. Refer to Freya manual p.3.
Would you recommend Psvane 6SN7 ?
For systems with a neutral, laid back, relaxed speaker profile, I think the Psvanes will match.
@@TycoDogg I mostly do streaming. And recently I bought the YAQIN SD-CD 3 as tube buffer. I never used tube before, just want to see if this will add some ingredients to the sound. I stream music from Lumin streamer. The YAQIN will be added in between the Lumin and my integrated amplifier. Lots of people talk about the stock tube is not good from the YAQIN, so I want to hear from you with your expertise advice. Will this PSVANE 6SN7 a good fit or I can use other tubes for the YAQIN?
@@ceddy1031 while I can't speak specifically about your tube buffer as I have no experience with it, in my experience I'd match the tube to the speakers first, and then to the type of music I'm listening to. In my system, the JBL 4343 speakers are extremely efficient and revealing in the midrange-to-ultrahigh frequency range and did not pair well with the PSVANE tubes, which tend to sound bright in comparison to other tubes. This pairing gave my system an edginess to the music that I didn't really care for. Read my original pinned comments for a more detailed review of the tubes in this listening test.
Sophia electric just sounds fast but less quality tugsol sounds balanced haha
tung-sol sounds the best
There are about 50 tube switches in the video. If you don't mind I have to ask how did you edit the music to play perfect? Unless I'm mistaken, for each of the 50 tube changes you had to 1. rewind the song 2. swap tubes 3. let the next tubes warm up 4. match levels 5. play the song again 6. sync the song AND video perfectly in post editing so as not to have any of the transitions audibly detectable. Or did you play the music all the way thru with each of the many tube permutations and capture just 5 seconds from each one, stringing them together for the 8 minutes of continuous music? On my RME ADI-2 to Benchmark AHB2's /KEF R5 I cannot detect any difference at all between any of the tubes even though I do think some should sound different. I know the youtube CODECs truncate the resolution. To avoid a placebo effect from the tube switches I listened to the entire music section a few times with my monitor off, still no changes. Tyco is busy so if anyone has ideas I'd like to hear them. Thanks-
Check out my UA-cam video called:. "Tyco Dogg's How To: The Making of an Audio Listening Test" which should answer your questions. ua-cam.com/video/RPUtCs-jPoU/v-deo.html
At least to my ears, tube rolling its a waste of money... or the UA-cam compressed audio not showing the differences, nice video though.
Totally valid comment. Thanks for the honesty. What I've discovered on this channel is that differences in sound between tubes can range from zero to fairly significant. But that's *MY* truth as my ears hear it...others may have a different truth. In the end, all that matters is to enjoy the music on an audio system that makes one happy.
Yes, there is a limitation on UA-cam (youtransistor?) along with the limitations of the cheap af bluetooth headphones I’m using. But differences are noticeable, and this gives me a direction of where to waste my money!
Let me tell you something.I have very good ears and experience at listening carefully.Here there is no difference at all!I can hear the difference even on UA-cam,but specifically in this video there is no difference at all.
I'd be interested in seeing if you feel the same way regarding the listening tests with Teslas (ua-cam.com/video/Zbe6QqQ9ii4/v-deo.html ) and Tungsram (ua-cam.com/video/-Xbpus2c-_I/v-deo.html ).
@@TycoDogg What are these?Youtu.be?Non correct addresses mate!
@@beslemeto Please try the links again...UA-cam got confused with the close parenthesis at the end.
@@TycoDogg In the first link with Tesla Nos tubes i hear the tubes give you deeper bass and thicker more spacious musical sound while the SS sound cleaner.That effect of the tubes can be reached with very cheap Op-Amp switches if you have a source with swappable op-amps.I have some creative sound card of which i replaced the op-amps and the sound is phenomenal now.Same effect if not better than these tubes...In the second link the Tungsram tubes are better.Better bass,richer and more musical sound again,but not by much.This is what i hear here on youtube.Clearly these tubes are not changing or enhancing the sound by much...Source,preamp and power amp match for sure will have much higher effect on enhancing the quality or should i say the "flavour" of the sound than swapping tubes.
@@beslemeto Thanks for your opinion. Mind if I ask what is your playback system (speakers/headphone/amp/audio interface/etc.)? Just curious.
Wow..is it wrong I can't tell the difference in the slightest detail? Just happy I own one of these clash of the titans.
Hi Tony, how are you listening to this UA-cam video? Can you describe your playback system? I do agree that tube rolling can be an investment with "diminishing returns" in that some differences (if any) can be quite subtle. The fact that the new production tubes in this test are all Chinese made might also factor into them having very similar sonic characteristics. If you look at my latest listening test (Genalex vs Tungsram), the Genalex tubes reminded me of the Electro-Harmonix from my first listening test, and both are Russian made.
@@TycoDogg PC/Topping D10/ coaxial to AudioGd 11.28/ tried it with HD6XX, Hifiman 400i, and custom Fostex .. I was tired last night so maybe that factored into it all sounding the same, great video, I posted it on Head Fi Facebook page.
@@TonyFernandezjkdjedi awesome, sounds like a very revealing setup, and thank you for posting to Head Fi. I frequented their board quite a bit a few years ago, and were the reason why I bought my Audeze LCD-2s. What I remember about this listening test (and what stood out to me the most) was slightly more edgy highs with the PSVANE tubes than the Sophia and Shuguang. Great if you have neutral, laid back speakers, not so great if you have very dynamic and live sounding speakers (like my JBL4343s). Check out my latest listening test (Genalex vs Tungsram) and let me know if you can hear more of a difference between those tubes (especially in the kickdrum sound on the first track).
Anyone ever found fake Shuguang tubes? I've seen a few different types of print on the same black tube. I wonder if someone in China has "borrowed" the blueprint and is selling fakes on eBay and Amazon
Shuguang Black Treasure sounded best to me.
Agree!
for someone with extensive listening with quality solid state amps, ALL these tubes sound decidedly different BUT they ALL sound very much alike. Tube rollers need to relax and just enjoy the sound of a quality tube and kit.
I found the Freya+ to diminish the sound to much no matter what tubes I used, to me its like the screen door effect from video! They don't cost a lot but they are not worth more then asking and you would be better off finding a good used Prima Luna 100 for $1400 - All the reviewers are full of it.
Cant belive how Bad the Jan fair compared to the Psvane...
Yes - seemed thin compared to PSvane
What Phil Spector ain't good enough for you?
I heard no difference at all
The differences are more like, recording with the door open or shut instead of like a sound dampened room vs a room with good wood acoustics.
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