The Problem with Lore Decks
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- Опубліковано 19 вер 2024
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#yugioh #joshuaschmidt #yugiohtcg
Albaz (Abyss) lore launched 10 different archetypes or engines: Branded, Bystial, Despia, Dogmatika, Icejade, Swordsoul, Tri-Brigade, Therian, Spright, and Springans
Next, Visas launched 4: Tearlaments, Kashtira, Mannadium, and Scareclaw
Now, Sinful Spoils launches 5: Snake-eyes, White Forest, Goblin Biker, Diabellestar, and Azamina
From a lore standpoint, Albaz represents a clear high point, introducing decks and splashable engines with a variety of playstyles. To me, if they're going to go down the lore route, do it like they did with Albaz.
It's not even good for Lore reasons, the lore already stated the snake eyes were eliminated by Diabelstar. It's dumb
I'll go a step further and say that the lore is another extra reason to remove Snake Eyes.
If you think on the Diabellstar lore in acts it would be:
Act 1:Snake Eyes
Act 2: Azamina
Act 3 : something else
WE ARE ALREADY ON ACT 2 OF THE LORE. SNAKE EYES IS NO LONGER A THING.
But for some ungodly reason Snake Eyes is still the dominant force in the TCG. Snake Eyes being good literally makes the story-gameplay integration worse.
They should let Snakes Eyes be while they were relevant on the lore, and now that we've moved on, banish them into oblivion and focus on the Azamina instead.
@@ze2896"snake eyes no longer a thing"
It will stay relevant until the end of the story, poplar is a snake eyes and he is diabel's side kick, he can reunite with others and become a New dragon, you have to wait for his next revolution aka its replacement for casual lore players before konami consider banning it.
No they wasn’t snake eyes will live forever
@@r3zafulpoplar being her side kick doesn’t really mean anything
Like literally even if flameberge was her friend do you really think konami wont ban him at some point
People kept on coping that Konami wont ban firewall dragon because its the ACE main monster and they did
Konami is milking snake eyes just like milked firewall and many others even though
Snake eyes part in the lore literally ended
Flameberge was killed in silvera trap artwork
And the other snake eyes were killed in recilea spell artwork
Except poplar because he was born from the sinful spoil gem making him a part of the lore
Snake eyes was just poorly designed we dont need to talk about anything else
Fucked up thing is, the lore isn't even ABOUT the Snake-Eyes, it's about Diabellestar. The simple solution would be to print more Sinful Spoil cards that AREN'T Snake-Eyes support.
The issue isn't lore archetypes inherently, it's Konami deciding to make them generic. Older lore archetypes like Duel Terminal had specific material requirements for a fair number of their cards, there were a couple exceptions which came about by tribes working together for a combined card like Lavalval Chain. Lore archetypes, as a whole were predominantly limited to their own archetype and couldn't really be splashed around for longevity and abuse.
What caused them to change it was simply Albaz being so outrageously bad that no one wanted to use him.
Tell that to Shaddoll, people were throwing this shit in Branded as a budget build in 2021. And before that, people were combining it with Dogmatika and Invoked.
And there's genex
The main source why they start to make lore meta trend
(Because the archetype was so bad even with so many support,everyone start complaining about it)
@@justice8718 Even then with Branded, it still focuses on running its own stuff with very few non-Albaz fusions mixed in. Like Branded is very self contained. Branded itself is just very adaptive as an archetype hence why it never dies.
@@dragonmasterxyz3544 branded is an archetype barely glued together and desperately trying to throw out Albaz if they ever get the chance.
Banning key parts of lore doesn't stop the new lore from being fun.
The problem I think is that sets in card games are typically designed a full year in advance. They likely have archetypes put togather around cards for lore a year before one of them becomes a problem. If they ban a key card that links cards between different archetypes planned, suddenly a whole slew of cards they are going to print in a couple months are unplayable.
@@CatManThree Azamina would still be good with just diabellstar/sinfulspoils even if they crippled snake-eyes by banning SE flamberge or even SE ash.
@@JackHugeman Of course. But when the enablers are cards built to be central to multiple decks like diabel herself it creates a problems.
Snake Eye's lifespan has been WAY longer than 6 months. That deck came out October of last year. And Poplar released at the beginning of February. That's 11 months if youre including the first wave release, and 7 months if you're only considering pure.
Yeah but Snake-Eye wasn't good before poplar, so most people just look at the poplar date. It's the same deal with branded and them getting branded fusion. Branded wasn't really a deck before that, but then branded fusion made the deck explode onto the meta scene as the best deck.
Snake eyes wasn't doing anything until poplar dropped.
It's nonsense to count the first wave since they weren't playable back then. Diabellestar and the oss package has been broken since day 1 tho
Only meta thing about snake eye first wave was diabelstar package in other fire decks the snake eye deck itself only became real with poplar and promethean princess release
@@jimtsap04well to be fair that package was winning tournament already are part of the best deck of that format
Snake Eyes isn't even the main focus of the lore.
It's Diabellstar, Diabellze and the sinful spoils. The entire thing starts with her wrecking Flamberge's temple and stealing poplar. They could easily hit it at this point by banning Flamberge or something and boosting it's other lore decks (though White Forest is already decent and Goblins get like 3 new cards in ROTA).
The problem is that Konami are clowns so they haven't done that yet
Is this lore in the newest Yugioh show or where can it be found?
@@Zappacuda it's told through the cards artwork, effects and names you can find videos on youtube explaining the lore and how there told.
@@justanothercommenterwithan9089 Geez, needa find me them channels then
@@justanothercommenterwithan9089 This is the most annoying thing to me tbh. They act like this lore crap is so important but where is the lore material being promoted outside of a book or two every so often to tell us these things happened? If they actually made some shows or movies or other promotional material outside of japan, i'd at least get it but they don't so it's really just them feeling themselves while they set the game on fire.
@@Zappacuda Golden Nova is the most well known dude for that but a lot of other smaller creators love to figure out the lore as well
Azamina doesn't even NEED Snake-Eye to be good😭I tinkered around with Azamina Chimera, genuinely one of the cooler decks I've played and also Azamina has White Woods synergy if I'm not mistaken... so yea... pls kill Snake-Eye
also if I recall correctly, wasn't it that Azamina has like nothing to do with Snake-Eye besides the fact that they're tied to Diabellstar?
@@CMaxoknight31 yes it’s more consistency cards for snake eyes because the azamina cards get you Diabellstar, Diabellstar gets you snake eyes
I have been saying that through the stream, Azamina supports Sinful Spoil, not Snake-Eyes. Konami could've easily killed SE even though it is "in" the archetype.
@@Sachi000 I mean, in other occasions you could have said that enemy archetypes having synergy was by bad design. But Sinful Spoils is designed to help the archetypes in Diabellstar's lore.
To say "it is Sinful Spoils support" is indirectly to say "it is Snake-Eye/White Forest support."
@@Sachi000The problem is that Sinful Spoils support IS Snake-Eye support. It’s the same lore, and the Sinful Spoils cards that are used are literally just Flamberge turbo via Diabellstar.
hell nah, the panties bots are now speaking german
As long as they aren't speaking Vietnamese.
Everyone Gangsta Until Pantie Bots Starting Speak German.
@@MeriliremBecause they speak for the trees?
lets be honest here. Lore deck or not, Konami needs to stop it with the insane power leaps in card design. Its clear the banlist isn't made to balance the game. Its made to push product. and if you don't like the way the lore decks play, then tough SH*T apparently. 10,000+ card and an eternal format and Konami still can't find a way to make the game interesting other than power creep.
people hate me for this but konami really should have designed things more like kash, like getting handtrapped to death in kash isnt frustrating cause something like fenrir pass is still strong especially if you also have handtraps and your opp used up their hand stopping your combos.
but whats frustrating is konami decided that card design should just follow the mathmech/cyberse pile style of design where as long as you got enough extenders its just gonna still let you end on the same board.
konamis card design starts to feel even worse in formats with mulcharmies and maxx c, like sure if we go by the OCG, its looks like its great that everyone is mostly still just using them to make it an engine vs engine game but then you run into the problem of later on when they start making good non-engine again or how something like tenpai is just gonna use that to draw into the non-engine outs
Blame the OCG. They have been designing cards daround cards like Maxx C. The damn cockroach dictates how cards are designed in the OCG
@@emperor_23897 And the worst part is that it's a creation of the TCG
@@yaminegira9239i dont know why you guys like this, people already transitioned to ryzeol and malice because they are already bored playing snake eyes etc. Yugioh was primarily designed with roleplay fantasy as its main goal, competitive or not it can be addresssed later.
It's crazy that we've been having this same argument for 20 years straight
The problems is that Diabellstar is a mandatory use in snake eyes.
So the Azamina cards being a “lore extension” to the sinful spoils cards…
If snake eyes is playable (no flamberge ban) it’ll dominate the meta again 100%
diabellstar is not going to be hit, but flamberge could be killed and it'd be fine
@@NinthSettler the new banlist will only happen at the VERY earliest in December, most likely only next year.
What I’m saying is that this banlist was terrible because snake eyes is still at full power with rage of the abyss. We needed to either see the flamberge ban or the bonfire ban.
I don’t understand why the original ROTA (reinforcement of the army) is limited, and bonfire that is literally a pyro monster ROTA is fine at 3. Makes no sense whatsoever
@@sul7718bonfire is HOPT, and ROTA is not
@@sul7718 ROTA isn't once per turn, but I agree, bonfire should be at 1.
@@patadanaboca758 ROTA isn’t once per turn, ROTA is LIMITED! You can Only have one copy of it in your deck.
That’s what I mean
Imo the real dilemma to this lore archetype is the main girl, Diabellstar, is an omni searcher. So unlike branded and visa starforst archetype forcing you to put in a situation brick for lore reason, sinful spoils archetype does not suffer from it. And the problem became worse when the very first deck of the lore is a Tier 0 deck....
Very good points. People constantly forget that even if they dont like a deck, if konami hasnt reprinted the cards, it's not going to get killed. I also think people don't realise how hard a stranglehold the ocg has over the tcg. They have to ask the ocg whenever they do anything - banlists, tcg exclusives, prizing... Etc. It reflects badly on the tcg side because we think 'oh they're just being negligent as usual,' but they inherit a lot of problems and their hands are somewhat tied. It doesn't make sense that the tcg side would be working so hard to balance the game, removing omni negates and floodgates (which the ocg still has) which the ocg side created and were left with, and yet be completely oblivious to the other aspects
The problem isnt lore decks in of themselves, but how pushed certain lore decks have been for seemingly no reason lately. Tearlemants had no justification for how pushed they were, neither did Snake Eyes.
Tearlaments is the opposite of "pushed". They are functional but balanced on their own, don't combo well with other lore-centric decks like Kash or Mannadium, and don't benefit from Visas supports.
Meanwhile you get stuff like Fenrir (generically good, 1 card combo) or Arise-heart (macro on legs) that reads like custom card, yet people whine about Tearlaments because the Ishizu cards broke them.
@@lotus_emanon Tearlaments are one of the most broken decks ever printed idk what youre on about.
Kash had reason for being pushed, not a good reason for the extent of push but a reason none-the-less. Hence why I didnt bring it up. It is just as bad as Tear regardless, if not worse due to how easy it is to just toss fenrir into any deck.
Both suck ass.
@@CatManThreetear isn’t even that broken. While the Ishizu cards, which are really Tear gets its teeth from, have two cards banned and two limited.
Tear have only 1 card banned and it’s an extra deck monster. And three limited so it’s a lot more playable than the Ishizu deck.
In the lore the Snake Eyes are little demons that everyone hunts for. There's nothing stopping them from releasing a wave of little Fiends and Illusions that vibe with Diabell (Diabellstar's sister) or the Goblins and "generically" support the other lore decks (kinda like a reverse Zefra).
Instead we have all this stuff funneling around the Black Witch.
I beginning to think this year was a bad year to get back in to Yugioh.
Bad in terms of card design but the people are way better than pre-2019 by a long shot imo
What about super heavy samurai they got murdered after a month 😟
Real
This isnt a lore problem its a design problem. Branded can go into synchro plays but Branded fusion locks you out of it WHY in Gods green earth does Snake Eye not have a single lock that stops future lore cards to not interact with them. I just want Konami to design cards in such a way that past cards can suddenly become broken I don't want hand trap simulator. Generic extra deck cards should be good but they shouldnt be so good that every deck wants to turbo into them because if you do you win.
there are 2 main issues with snale eyes and frustrations with card design in general.
1: good decks are made excessively generic beyond human comprehension, just look at promethean don't needing fires at all to summon.
2: they make absurd restrictions on every thing they don't want to be the top deck. why are decks like mimighoul, not even talking about how good the card even is in general, getting a card who's entire gimick is to say your boss monsters are now mine but then konami says fuck you that would mean you could use our good cards made to destroy your garbo deck so it cannot activate its effect making the entire card obsolete. same for malice having a card TRAP CARD that only summons going second from the extradeck a card when the opponent has full set up so to compensate in the case the card could be good can'T the monster activate its effects.
it'S just bafeling how konami designes cards in a way that clearly shows they don't want people to play the game how those people like it if it deviates by just a little from what they want
Mimighoul was made by the tcg team instead of the ocg team. Can't blame that on the ocg designers
I've also noticed that certain decks like rescue-ace, purely, unchained and shs were hit to not be meta INSTANTLY and harshly. Whereas tear, Kash and now snake-eyes are getting small irrelevant slaps over 2 or 3 banlists before being killed. It definitely makes it feel like the former decks were never intended to be meta so they wanted to instantly remove them from contention as soon as people figured out a way to make them so
@@KeshavKrishnan as far as i know are tcg exclusive just tcg guys saying the ocg people what they want and the ocg still designs the cards just not the deck identity
@@spyro2002That's because players can't be allowed to have mutilple good, affordable, viable choices under the tcg's sales model and still make the most profit. Artificial scarcity and the illusion of choice are by design. The players then reinforce the flawed system by saying it's bad and how it always is, yet still buy in.
A way to remedy this is the free up space on the banlist that would give players something to buiod outside of whatever makes the most profit. Instead the recent banlists hit some omnis, hit tome of the turns skips(but not all of them for some inane reason) and brought back like 4 non factors, and 2 toxic cards. It genuinely has a bunch of cards sitting on the list that don't need to be there and would be a great way to stoke player interest in deck building.
Yeah I mean... Opportunities for player creativity tend to either require finding generic cards to break and abuse, or borrowing archetypes and engines that weren't intended to be connected... These creative opportunities tend to be where a lot of unexpected power lies, and also seem to repeatedly get squelched out. More and more over time, Konami has shifted from a place of "here are unique cards; now you tailor make your deck how you want to suit you" to "here are the three new decks. They use these 40 cards, these are the combos, here's the game plan, and you make this endboard." It's gone from "Create A Character" to "CHOOSE your character" as like a fighting game metaphor...
One issue I have with the TCG balancing is the infrequent banlists.
Because they are rare banlists need to hit hard and frequently there are long stretches where one deck is far above the others.
Master Duel managed to keep Diabell/Snake Eye decks relatively close to other decks the whole time.
Yea it'd have been nice if they were a little harsher and allowed the deck to drop a bit more before a new wave of support, but the frequent banlists still allowed to never let Snake Eye reach t0 on MD.
Meanwhile in the TCG overbearing decks are often overbearing for several months, before anything is done to them, in the case of Snake Eye leading to barely a breather before the new support hits.
This whole concept is flawed because constantly power creeping your game is not good design and meta decks shouldn't need to be so overpowered that you must "kill them" after a set amount of time. Meta decks should just be a sidegrade or a slight bump above and not completely over shadowing competition. It's not Lore decks' fault.
Going over to other games, it really feels like that's sadly just what Yugioh is.
the worst part is if you're power creeping the game you shouldn't (ususally) need to kill the previous best deck because it's now no longer the best, but Konami doubles down and will release a new deck 125% stronger than the previous best deck then also ban the top 5 previous best decks just to force everyone to play the new one.
powercreep is constant in ALL tcgs. even with ones who has rotation. Constant powercreep is both unavoidable and good for the business, and any tcg, as much as you dont want to admit it, is a business that has to support itself and bring its owner a loaf of bread
@@digitalstatictvits what every tcg is.
@@JackHugemanthat is true, Konami making pseudo-rotation by banning old best deck while releasing new even bester deck is kinda meh from both business and gameplay perspective.
I largely agree with your points, especially regarding this new wave of SE support being unprecedented in Yugioh's history. However, I don't think a straightforward relationship exists between lore affinity and deck synergy. For instance, the Swordsouls helped Albaz and Ecclesia while Despia was their enemy, so why does Albaz synergize so much better with the latter than the former? Why does a Tear deck summon Rulkallos and Kaleidoheart onto the same field when they should be enemies lore-wise? If Konami wants lore affinity to correlate with deck synergy, they certainly haven't been consistent about it. I think the decision to have Azamina support SE is greed, plain and simple.
Albaz is for fusion strategies and he and aluber used to be one being. Aluber is the manipulator behind despia. He wants to obtain the power from albaz. Branded fusion depicts the scene where they fought which lead to them becoming alba lenatus, so they did "fuse" as depicted and makes sense for albaz to important in the card text. Aluber even absorbs some of albaz's power before they get help from the Sword soul ( this is shown in branded lost).
Kaleido was oppressing the other tearlaments. Rulkalos only protects other aquas from destruction by battle and this excludes kaleidoheart because he is a fiend which fits with him being an invader who was oppressing them.
Azamina does not directly support SE, but sinful spoils. Sinful spoils themselves related to the corruption of Diabellestar's family/friends and she is searching for Sinful spoils, which is why she searches the cards. Flamberge contained a Sinful spoil and the jewel in its eye broke to release Poplar (as depicted in oss).
I would say that they have actually done a good job so far. Goblin riders is the only one I think was done poorly because the rank 6 is stated to have consumed sinful spoils power, but the archetype is not tied to sinful spoils cards at all at the moment.
I always interpreted it as the Evil Despia characters (Aluber, Cartesia, Quem) essentially using Albaz's powers against his will
Iirc this even happened with Aluber taking away Albaz's ability to fuse until he gets it back suddenly when rescuing Ecclesia.
@@nojetplane Yeah. Aluber absorbs some of albaz's power in branded lost. I icejades help him transform into mirrorjade and then he and lubellion fuse into alba lenatus during the Clashed. Albaz is expelled and his diamond in his head is gone in the ashened albaz artwork, showing all the power has been taken. Aluber users that to summon the bystials and transform.
I don't think quem used it
It's not "Snake-Eyes lore", it's "Sinful Spoils lore". There are other Sinful Spoils besides Snake-Eye, such as the one-off non-archetype examples like Silvera, it's just that Snake-Eyes happens to be the best deck to actually utilize the Sinful Spoils/Diabellstar engine by a huge margin. The actual story portion of Snake-Eyes in the Sinful Spoils storyline ended with Poplar being born.
I don't know why Konami didn't just give Azamina some maindeck cards and put a lock on them that would disable use of Snake-Eyes alongside them; even a Dark lock, so you can't go into them until after you're already done with your Fire plays, and thus can't insulate those plays with an omni-negate.
Lorewise, they have nothing to do with Snake-Eyes, besides existing in the same universe (and not even at the same time). If OSS were hypothetically banned, they wouldn't even have a gameplay connection and would have to search other "Sinful Spoils" cards instead. None of the Azamina cards mention the "Snake-Eye" archetype by name, nor have overt synergy with level 1 Pyros.
If anything, them not going all-in with Diabellstar/Sinful Spoils by giving powerful "Sinful Spoils" named cards to Goblin Bikers and White Forest was another design failure.
Agree. OSS is the problem!
They don't put locks on these cards because they want them to be able to be splashed with other decks that use Sinful Spoils. If you put a dark lock on the Azamina cards then suddenly they're more awkward to use with the White Forrest cards. Just because Snake Eyes use them best doesn't mean nothing else in the lore can use the Azamina cards either
The issue is as you said, the power level of the snake eyes cards and OSS. Not that there's a lore archetype that happens to connect to snake eyes through Sinful spoils.
They put lock on more diabellze support
Did it see any meta play?
No?
Then you're already get your answer
if this format was healthier i think i wouldnt care that much how long it lasted. theres just too many cards that encourage/create unfun play patterns that need to be cleaned up and i think i'd be fine with snake-eye remaining the best deck if enough of those were gone
cough cough shifter
Snake eye in its current iteration is indeed way less toxic, the problem is azamina on the horizon and before that we still have to contend with a comparatively much less hindered yubel as the likely best deck
@@hatster401 except, you can’t say you would be ok with snake eyes remaining if Konami banned other blow-out cards and mention shifter at the exact same time. Does shifter suck? Yes, 100%. It REALLY sucks. However, shifter very much can keep snake eyes and fiendsmith in check. I only wish it kept tenpai in check as well, but that fucking deck MAINS shifter, even while having multiple effects that revolve around the graveyard. Beats me.
My feelings towards the recent August list is the fuckin Darth Vader comic panel meme where he goes "This is... acceptable."
The september banlist should have 100% killed snake eyes. I'm not sorry. We're having over a year of OSS and Snake-Eye with a rescue ace variant. Sinful Spoils was a mistake in card design on par with Links and me saying links were a mistake is coming from a person who plays Trickstar and Marincess, two link focused decks. Visas was riding the thin line at Tear and Kash, with Kash gumbles format 2 before they banned Diabolosis about a month or two after the deck came out. The most dominant albaz lore decks were Tri-Brigade (the lyrilusc and zoodiac versions which died at the banning of simorgh) Branded/Despia (which would be more interesting without having to puppet lock but has major counterplay and chokepoints) and Swordsoul (which were getting to be powercrept as soon as Spright and Tearlament were released) Tear is still a rouge option now, Kash is pretty much dead as a stand alone deck once they finally banned Arise-Heart. Snake-Eyes has been the best deck far longer than Kash and Especially Tear, who was still really good in spite of kash existing as effectively a counter.
Tl;Dr: Snake-Eyes needed to die on the september list but didn't, how else is konami going to sell a likely rarity gouged Azamina when ROTA comes out. Snake-Eye/Azamina/Fiendsmith one of the best decks in the OCG after all and a tier 0 format is all the big mouthed players wanted anyways. "Too many decks to side against" argument anyone? Cry about it. The varied formats are the lifeblood ot the game because they allow for more creativity and casual fun.
Why they killed tear after few month while snake eyes is dominating everything during almost 1 year
It's insane to me that they still have yet to directly ban a single Snake Eyes/Sinful Spoils card after almost a year i the game while Tear got Kit banned after 6 months.
@@AnRuixuan snake-eyes has only been tier 1 for 7 months, the deck did nothing prior to poplar.
and full power tear was way stronger than snake-eyes is currently, kitkallos needed to go.
Because tear was actually tier zero, and even after the slaughter list it was STILL top meta for months on end after ariseheart got banned until poplar release and millers ban
@@JackHugeman While yes, snake-eyes as a deck has been the best deck in the format for “only” 7 months (a month longer than Kitkallos even existed in the TCG anyway), Diabellstar and OSS were in some of the top decks since release (Rescue Ace mainly, but Sinful Spoils Infernoble has tops).
So I feel like it’s more than fair for people to ask for some amount of impactful hits akin to what they did with Tear.
They hit tear hard after “a few” months, yes, but in no way did they kill it at the time. It was still very much the top tier deck, and I think it was for at least a year. Even then, people kept playing tear even after the limits to the names. Only after the hits to the millers did players FINALLY look at other decks to play.
I kind of disagree with him at @9:22
I think this is very in line with prior card design in the past few years, with the difference being how strong snake eyes is at base. The Azamina cards only support snake eyes by virtue of original sinful spoils snake eye. It's not that snake eyes has something to do with all of them, it's that Diabellstar has something to do with all of them. For example, Azamina also supports White Forest, because it has Susurrus of the Sinful Spoils; however that effect is just not as strong as normal summon ash. In fact you could argue it supports White woods better than snake eyes because it lets you put appropriate level illusions on board, apart from direct white woods support. Biker didn't get support by means of an Azamina card, but they got 3 separate support cards, one of which is fantastic for the deck.
Visas lore was actually very similar in this regard. Mannadium liberally uses Scareclaw and often runs perlerieno just because its searchable through amaritara and in turn searches Visas. Kash ended up being mostly separate, like Goblin bikers. Branded does much better with despia and bystials, but Spriggans, Icejade, etc, have very little to do with it.
The truth is that Azamina is Diabellstar/Sinful spoils support, but sinful spoils supports snake eyes, which is really strong, so they're all going into snake eyes.
My thoughts are that the problem is how broken they typically are. Tearlaments was the most broken deck we have ever had. Snake-Eyes is an even bigger gold mine for Yugioh because they hit it ever so slightly each time to appease the people, release more broken support immediately afterwards, and then Snake-Eyes is able to have a bunch of different fire cards slotted into it.
All 3 make it a problem. And on top of that there's a wide group of people who deny that it was ever tier zero.
The thing about Azamina working with Snake-Eyes isn't even a case of them being lazy with the lore, it actually runs COUNTER to the lore because the Azamina are enemies while Snake-Eyes is sort of more like the "main character" archetype. Even as a lore progression it's counterproductive to the story, like if Ally of Justice were made to have synergy with Worms.
One of the problems with lore decks is that Konami has seemingly aimed to make them busted because they want the lore protag to be the "face" of the game for a period (except for Visas who got neglected) in lieu of a non-Rush anime. They don't need the deck to be fun/interesting so that it's something that can be showcased in the anime (like Elemental HERO which is popular not so much because it's a strong deck but because it was fun to watch in GX). You can't really do that with a lot of recent lore decks, everything involving them needs to happen on the table.
So, if they DO want the deck to be appearing frequently in player's minds so in order to do that they just make it OP. "We REALLY want people to buy Branded so we will keep printing support for it until everyone is mere exposure effect biased into thinking it's great lore."
Near the end of Branded they released Magikey which some people were expecting might be the next lore but the deck being aggressively mediocre probably is part of why it got dropped, if there were any plans on it being a lore series.
It also sucks because Konami deliberately picks winners and losers. When you look at Mannadium being just an "okay" deck and that being the capstone of the Visas Starfrost lore it kind of puts a bad taste in your mouth, especially when you look at all the attention Konami has placed on the lore both preceding and following Visas Starfrost, it makes it seem like something with great potential got squandered as a "holding pattern" or a "testing ground".
What they are doing right now is basically like them not hitting tear hard enough, because they made tear kash a secret rare and want to sell it.
That would have been outrageous.
The only thing that made this whole thing somewhat bearable is the fact that Diabellestar is at least hot.
Konami execs: We know. That's why we won't stop
Most recent example I can think of is Tear, already a Tear 1 deck straight out of POTE, getting Rulkallos and Cryme in the next set. This is completely disregarding the Ishizus since they were non-lore "incidental" support
Every new deck will always get 3 waves of initial support, doesnt matter if it's competitive or not, they're not going to stop on wave 1 just because it's Tier 1 on release nor they'll print more support because it's on the same tier as shit like Nemleria
I'm still waiting for my Visas support his story/lore are not finish yet we still missing pendulum Visas😂.
Get in line, im still waiting for more World Chalice lore
@@dvastget in line waiting for more ice barrier/gishki lore
They made Visas deck way too strong so now they are stuck because they don't know how to continue the lore without destroying the meta again
@@dvast wait world chalice lore ended. it had a full wrap up and everything.
@@dvast We're getting dream absorber in ROTA, we got Vesper Girsu last set, and Starry Dragon's cycle in AGOV. You've been waiting weeks.
The problem with Snake Eye is that it is THE first deck in the lore. Like this is if Dogmatika was THE best deck in the branded lore and got support until the end. Branded as a deck at least got released after the second half.
Reminds me of older games, Like maybe. Snake-Eyes is the new power level every basic deck is supposed to be at. Instead of killing snake eyes they just going to print 15 of em
Thats what should have happened with Tearlaments
@@ThunderflySc2 Agree. Makes no sense the bans they do half the time imo. Like everyone calling for flamberge ban, I dont like Snake-eyes either, But banning flamberge kills the whole decks identity. So the answer should be, Lets give VS another link, Or make it so stake can be searched ffs.
Make the lesser decks able to keep up. If we all have 1 card combos its gotta to to something like, who manages resources better, or timing traps etc will become more important. Not just, I made 5 negates play through that with 6 effing cards 🙄
No, absolutely not. The current power level is not only unsustainable, but also inherently limiting card design. The only way every deck can rise to match Snake-Eyes' power is to simply function in a similar manner TO Snake-Eyes. Having the future of YGO just be Snake-Eye decks with a different coat of paint is a surefire way to kill the gane entirely.
@@ThunderflySc2The thing is peak tearlament is 5x stronger than SE...
It is the strongest deck of all time
@@mohdawad7339 Yes it was, stronger, my point still stands. If we can have decks equally as strong as peak tearlaments would be better than the handtrap wars that SE type of decks are promoting
IMO the issue with decks like snake eyes, is their boards are so layered you cant just use a boardwipe or two to start your plays, and their combo's are so resilient that you absolutely need to open something like 4 hand traps just to have any hope of playing next turn. I was a huge advoate of banning somthing like Fire princess instead of the consitency hits like popplar or ash because it would meaningfully reduce the ceiling of the deck instead of making its recurring advantage engine dead after the first turn(Because lets be real, it wont matter if you just win on the crackback), and it doubles as an absurdly flexible interruption that gets around boardwipes and triggers graveyard effecs like flamberge or amblowhale.
Ban original sinful spoils.
That's literally all you have to do.
Orcust is a historic example at the end of MR4
Labrynth didn't even get all the cards introduced in the original lore lol
Snake eyes won’t die like it does in lore
Something somewhat relevant I think is that the duel terminal stuff (earlier on at least) was designed to be played against eachother on an arcade cabnet.
I feel like stuff like this really works best in the context of limited formats, its why Magic's block system worked so well. A series of 2-3 sets taking place within one locations centered around a running story, and desugned around being played against other cards from the same block. Magic would have stuff like "block constructed", where you could only play cards from a given block.
(Edit:some grammar)
The background music is very close (if not the same as) my ringtone, and I got majorly baited while listening to this video on headphones.
10/10, absolute cinema
I think the biggest issue is that "Sinful Spoils" covers every archetype in the lore at once, other than Goblins. So if any Azamina or any future archetypes are created in the story, they will inevitably include something that supports "Sinful Spoils", which is a boost to Snake Eye.
The worst part about this is that the Snake Eyes role in the lore is over. Poplar is the only one left (I think), so Flamberge has no reason to stick around if story is the main concern.
Still waiting for Skull Servant and Worms support 😢
My main frustration with this entire situation -Joshua Schmidt
Another issue I have with this is the fact it's always popular lore archetypes getting contiuous support whereas less popular ones are left to be forgotten.
Archetypes such as Branded or Visas ones don't really have a more compelling lore or artwork than many others in the game...they are simply popular cause they have been strong enough to be meta-defining or competitively good at least for a decent amount of time. That's why most people play them. On the other hand, the reason as to why lots of other lore archetypes happen to get no attention from Konami is that they lack said strength, which means in turn they lack a large dedicated playerbase, despite having compelling lore and artwork, despite having fun playstyles. Now, Konami could very easily boost these archetypes popularity by printing actual good support for them, expanding further onto their lore in the process...and yet they won't. Easier to just print the 986736th card mentioning "Fallen of Albaz".
Makes sense I mean Jurrac the dinosaur deck finally got support after I think 11 years I read somewhere. Like that’s ridiculous i understand to release product for more current decks, but then you run the risk of those new decks always being strong because older decks aren’t being power crept to be able to compete
Don't think the issue here is necessarily lore decks that can support each other. But rather what card those chose that ties them together. The Visas lore focuses around the namesake card and the 1500/2100 statlines. Tearlaments having some synergy with Visas Amritara I don't think was necessarily a problem.
The problem with Azamina is the fact the factor they use to tie them together were the Sinful Spoils and Diabellstar. Which bridge into the Snake-Eyes. If anything, the problem are the Sinful Spoils IMO rather than Azamina itself.
They're allergic to hitting new secret rares
I think that we had enough of Snake-Eyes already. There's no need to keep pushing the same deck in the meta again and again with even crazier supports.
But for me, the real problem lies in the overpowered generic Extra Deck cards that they keep releasing.
Really, what can Snake-Eyes do (and a lot of other decks in fact) without extra deck cards like Promethean Princess, I:P, S:P and stuff? I believe it would be an OK deck/engine, but not that dominant.
The upcoming Azamina would be fine as well (even for the lore I think) if their Extra Deck cards weren't somewhat "generic", and if they weren't powercreeping the game (again).
Or if they just were their own thing, and weren't design to function so well with Snake-Eyes.
it's because shaddoll, qliphoth, tellarknight, etc. are just continuation of the duel terminal saga
hence the similar card designs of not mixing into each other
Azamina is not snake-eye support. It's a sinful spoils support. Konami could have made it so that the deck doesn't support snake-eye if they just banned Original. But alas, they probably thought keeping original would make them more money forcing snake-eye players to go for the Azamina engine in ROTA
Banning original kills the whole deck and Konami knows keeping the deck alive makes them money.
@@hatefulgaming1800 banning original kills any connection between diabellstar-sinful spoils lore with fire decks
The trap. For the lore decks taking over can also have a simple answer. There is no new anime to fill these packs with. So nearly every card has to have “meaning” other than “used by MC’s rival”
It's firewall all over again. Bros got plot armor.
I actually like the idea of a interconnected lore archetypes which makes a deck slightly better with every new set like Branded Despia, but the difference is Despia needed multiple waves of support including a Structure Deck with probably the most broken Fusion Spell of all time just to make it somewhat Tier 1,5ish in comparison to that Snake Eyes which was already pretty good at its first wave and got with its second wave so over the top broken, that nobody wants to see this deck anymore.
Also the fact that Snake Eye dropped so early in Master Duel, which makes it feel even bigger and people have gotten more tired off it
i like the idea of lore decks, but i don't know why they always release them with so varied power levels, one is always the meta deck the others are mid and other borderline unplayable, and now that 1 pile deck gets all the support while the others don't just made the problem even worse worse.
got it adding jurrac meteor to all lore decks.
In case anyone forgotten, we also had True Dracos that have been meta for at least 3 years straight.
Also, regarding lore decks, you can continue the lore without giving support to a top tier deck. Branded is quite the example, it received continuous support in terms of lore, but not directly to the Branded deck (Swordsoul, Spriggans, Therions etc). The Azamina cards are both relevant to the lore AND Snake-Eyes, and this is where Konami dropped the ball.
Apparently ryzeal and maliss compete with snake eye (shifter decks unfortunately)
Shiftermania is running wild, people even want full power Ka$htira back so they can run that with Shifter too. Ryzeol is also a Protos Deck iirc, so it has the whole Ritual Beast anti-meta setup.
I think rather than the continued release of lore related cards, the much bigger issue is they are way too afraid to ban them or meaningfully hit them on the FnL list. Same thing happened with the what, 1.5 years of Not-Firewall bans because it was the anime ace monster at the time? I feel like there are a lot less people who will care about the story cards not being suitable for competitive play than Konami thinks, since I don't think most casuals even go to locals. I'm in favour of them continuing to make these long stories and big archetypes of continued support to tell that story, they just need to nut up and bite the bullet when they go too far. If the main appeal of these cards is the story, I don't think the competitive viability/legality of the cards is going to impact those sales much. People who want to play casually and/or just enjoy them for that story are going to buy the cards anyway and those same people will play those suboptimal decks post-ban even if they do go to locals just because they like the story. The only thing that continuing to break the same archetype does is push the comp players to buy more of a given product, which they can do with literally any card they want. They could print a random one-off card that makes Triamid broken tomorrow and it would probably result in a similar bottom line percentage off the competitive community.
There's definitely a marketing consideration of Lil' Timmy having a bad time because he goes to locals and they tell him he can't play X card, but I honestly have trouble believing that is this giant issue they need to sacrifice the integrity of their long-term playerbase for. I played Magic for like 12 years with friends, family, and classmates before one of us even *thought* about going to FNM or that there was a ban list to begin with, it's just not something the primary demographic for the anime or the lore stuff is affected by nearly as much as people think.
Yeah zoo never got legacy support despite all the other archetypes in their receiving support after link era
The lore with Snake-Eyes is that they are supposed to be a subsect within the lore of Diabellstar, she's very clearly the main character alongside Diabellz who are supposed to be Konami's Bayonetta and Jean.
Snake-Eyes, Goblin Biker, White Forest and Azamina are supposed to be backdrops to them...
I dunno where people are getting the idea that Snake-eyes are the focal point of the lore.
Because snake eyes is the best lore deck and diabellestar is basically a glorified one for one for them
Lore decks feel like they hold you hostage
I can't stop laughing at the thumbnail after seeing that "This is no bueno" tweet
Azamina is so splashable that even a deck like Branded can use the engine. Azamina would sell even if they hit Snake Eye harder
If they banned oss there won't be any connection to snake-eyes anymore, azamina is sinful spoil support not snake-eyes, there just happens to be a sinful spoil that goes into snake-eyes so oh well
The problem is that Azamina had no right being linked to Sinful Spoils. White Woods were related lore-wise, but weren’t interactable. Azamina could have easily been mechanically seperated, but no.
It's 2 years of guarenteed pack filler/Meta defining and nothing in between
Duel Terminal didn't have lore focus in card design and artworks? DT1 had Ally of Justice monsters that outright said in their flavour text that they were modelled after other monsters and their whole playstyle was specifically made to try (and fail) to counter Worms, and 1 or 2 monsters that did in fact have cross-archetype effects. DT2 gave us various monsters who were obvious fusions of specific in-story characters with types/attributes from both archetypes to reflect that, on top of all the Lswarm virus shenanigans. DT3 gave us the Zefra Archetype, which is as cross archetype as you can get. You can pretty much map out Gishki Noellia's whole story off of card arts alone.
If anything a lot of the early Duel Terminal archetypes had the issue of trying to stick TOO close to lore at the detriment of game design. Ally of Justice being the best example where they literally don't do anything unless they're against a light deck lol
If Badass Goblin Biker gets its name localized and butchered, we riot
Agreed.
The proper hits should have been flamberge banned if you just wanted to tune down the deck , and oak banned if you wanted snake-eyes pure to no longer be a thing, also ash to 1 for complete deck murder , thats it , that way diabelstar , wanted , poplar and original sin can retain its place as generic fire support but no body spam link deck is a tier 1 threat as a result
Main issue with lore decks us they can never balance their compatibility with the rest of the game. This usually wind up 1 of 2 ways.
The archetype is incredibly zeno-phobic to the point of being too constraining, killing the deck on release or destroying any chance of it sticking around.
2. The archetype is incredibly generic, having near 0 restrictions, and having extensive access to every good generic card.
Combine this with powercreep, and bad card design, and we get stuff like snake-eyes.
It would be a whole lot different if flamberge or diabelstar was released on a final set of the lore
can we talk about the problem of bootlicking konami next?
The last time i remember a meta deck passing by with no major hits waw invoked dogmatika shadoll, everyone and their mother was screaming for meltdown aleister winda schism bans etc. But none of that happened and the deck just naturally faded out.
Time for a ygo cinematic universe maybe even a manga
Maybe they are doing this, just to make sure that other decks will be as good as snake-eyes and snake-eyes is the new stadard? Imagen how much Power-Creep we have in the last 6 years of YGO.
Idk spright was a lore deck and it got elf banned making it a lot worse while barely even affecting tearalament. It's like they pick and choose what decks they want the year to revolve around.
Branded started this I think. World legacy had some cross over cards, but I’m not using crusadia cards in a crawler deck (not counting the single trap) where as branded has like 7 cards that cross over into branded. The big problem there is that the branded lore has 2 synchro decks, a fusion deck, whatever sprite is, the main deck therions, the xyz deck and an anti extra ritual with dogmatics. Meanwhile snake eyes all feed back into snake eyes and nothing else and it’s sucks.
The tie would have been broken if they had banned Sinful Spoils Snake Eye (normal spell).
The main reason I think Konami didn't axe Sanctifier yet is because of lore reasons, there is basically no other explanation
Albaz lore is complete but not Aluber lore, it is very possible that we will get EVEN MORE cards to search with Aluber and they wanna keep all the albaz cards around to sell those
I dont want decks to just die, even if it's clearly the undisputed top dog
I would like to point out:
Any card that is relevant to any large plot line in the anime, manga, and/or card lore is inherently less likely to get hit.
This would apply to (but is not limited to) cards like Firewall Dragon, Borreload Savage Dragon, Diabellstarr the Black Witch, Hot Red Dragon Archfiend King Calamity, and Super Polymerization.
The branded comparison isn't that good, and I personally hate branded as a deck. The abyss/albaz lore also included relevant archetypes such as Swordsoul, Spright, Tri brigade, Dogmatika, Despia and Bystial, and a few less relevant ones like Therion, Icejade and Sprigans, meanwhile, did you know Goblin Biker is in the same lore as snake eyes? Yes, that deck that has done less than nothing in competitive play.
Thank you Dogmatika.
Next up. Even more Lore Decks.
In my opinion how it should work, the protagonist, in this case Diabellstar, should be a good and flexible engine, which can be used with many archetypes of their lore. That way you can freely hit the dominant deck while also leaving options in which to play the main character of the story. So far it seems that only one archetype from the story is both good and working with the main character. You'll never run Albaz without the main branded deck. Visas only sees use in manadium despite having interactions with the other decks. So far, Diabellstar seems the most versatile, and she could be played with white forest or the upcoming one, but snakeeyes are too oppressive to let that happen.
Planning a deck to have a certain life span before forcing it out with a banlist hit sounds like set rotation with extra steps
Last insta nuke list was PePe where we only had it for 1 YCS and it was killed on the spot. The hard part is finding the right line between allowing people to play with new cards and then removing the problem from the format. Card design is the problem, Snake-eyes, Kash, Tear, Spyral, ect... has all just been a victim of card design and pushing 1 card do it all combos.
We really were spoiled with Branded
Not all "best decks" are equal. Just because something else will be the best deck when you remove the current one, doesn't mean it will be anywhere near as oppressive.
For me it doesn't really matter what deck is the best, as long as that deck doesn't do anything super toxic - like Kash locking all the zones. If one deck dies, another replaces it, and in the tcg people aren't really that open to playing anything that isn't the best deck of the format. Idc if it's a snake-eyes or yubel deck I'm playing against. If they kill snake-eyes and yubel, the new ocg archetypes will just be that much stronger compared to the rest of the decks.
8:05
I do really like the Agents lore, and there's so much around them but they got left in the dust + could use way more, you're right!
This isn't the first time ,during DABL format and Formats before Tearlaments was the best deck in the tcg and then with MAMA we got Ishizu.Just because they didn't belong together lore wise doesn't mean they weren't meant for each other!
a comment against the "they wont kill a deck as soon as its good" is superheavy, deck didnt even have a month of being good before they took it out back and killed it. they couldve hit some of the generic ED boss monsters then but they hadnt reprinted them yet so they decided to kill the archetype instead. and now look where we are, all those crazy ED boss monsters that made the engine broken are banned and scarecrow is still banned so now theyve killed a good archetype immediately after it became good and killed the ED boss monsters that made it broken. The only reason snake eyes lived is cause lore, no other reason at this point.
Or any other of a million reasons konami might have.
The best decision in ROTA was giving Goblin Bikers a level 6 to meet the hard summon requirement for one of the fusions
Watch for September 23rd since the OCG banlist dropped there. Konami needed to do a nuclear banlist this time for the OCG otherwise the meta will be the same even with the addition of Ryzeal and Maliss
The length of time a deck stays on top is partly down to what time of year it is released. You usually have to get to the next tins so Konami can cash in reprints before a deck is killed. I suspect Snake Eyes won't last much past Rage Of The Abyss.
I got recommended this video from watching a duel terminal lore video today, so perfect timing I um …..guess.