People seem to think that more horsepower is better, here we're seeing that it's not true. Miatas dont have a lot of power which means less time on the brakes and more full throttle runs.
ND2 is a good 500-600lbs lighter. Even though the s2000 has more power it's also lugging along the equivalent of 3 extra adults sitting in the car :) . To top it off ND2 has a broad hp/torque curve so it pulls all the way through, not just at 7,000+ like the S2000. ND2 is like a steerable/daily driver Elise. Not as hardcore as the Elise but pretty darn good at doing both street and track.
@@ag4allgood miata is a gripy car from its own. it doesnt need the wing because of the weight. plus the miata engine gives more torque from lower rpm than the s2000 does. the only disadvantage for honda is the less top speed because of the wing. in corners had to be closer to miata but the honda driver pushed hard and tires died. you can easily hear the tires screaming. miata isnt a joke!
So many people commenting on either ND2 or S2k when I say both! You can appreciate and want to own both as most people who enjoy driving should. The AP1 redline and vtec is something to behold along with possibly the best shifter I've ever felt. The ND2 has such a better low down tq and linear powerband. The weight advantage in the ND2 is also something not to ignore and makes daily driving at 35mph on streets a joy.
As an owner of an ND2, its just a better car all around. Sorry but S2K owners will always find ways to justify their car when it gets beat by MX5s. May the MX5 crowd always stay open minded and humble. Its the best enthusiast group by far with knowlege and positive attitude. You were out there set to "beat a mazda". At no point was your S2K on that MX5s mind. He was probably just having a good time doing his personal best. You could probably do the same if you focused on just doing your personal best and possibly could have netted yourself a better time that day.
Those ND2s are no joke, still wish they had more power, 200NA would make that car amazing. I was getting my butt kicked on Sat by NDs in my non areo S2.
A company called BBR GTI in the UK announced on their facebook page that they are working on a remap + exhaust package which exceeds well over 200hp. They are developing camshafts too to make another 10-20hp too.
At 181hp it's already faster than S2000. Not sure what's so magical about 200hp besides it sounds like a good number. Remember it's also 500-600lbs lighter than S2000. You can get to 200hp+ with tune and exhaust.
@@kumsman: If this gen miata engine is anything like the previous engines than full exhaust and a tune will gain you nearly nothing. NA and NB miata best results from a full exhaust and a tune if you can find anyone who will tune your stock ecu is 5-8HP no joke. Hopefully this new engine will be better for naturally aspirated builds than the old ones. Also I second the motion that a miata all generations thus far would be perfectly balanced with a 200hp engine.
Lots of excuses in the video text... it IS Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca after all. Nice driving! It looked great. The ND and ND2 are excellent cars. I've now weighed my Stock Canadian ND Club with Cloth Interior, ragtop (no RF) - 2189lbs no driver, 1/4 tank of fuel.
I was there in my lowly ND1 running novice. I met him briefly but didn't want to bug him as he was always tinkering with his car. Heard from others that he was running MCS 2 ways/r888r/RR/swaybars. The ND2 engine does make a big difference on the straights. Time difference between the global cup cars for nd1 vs nd2 are around 2 seconds at COTA.
After watching this video, I am more proud to say that my first brand new car was a 2019 Mazda MX-5 that I bought last year on September, I think that I was one of the first in my country (Mexico) and also in the world!
Aside from it's still being lightweight, the ND2 has its 6th gear at 1:1 ratio. Although it has a very short 1st gear ratio of 5. 087 and 2nd gear ratio of 2.991, you still can go 0-60 mph still in 2nd gear. It has a very broad power band. You can stay in gear, say in 3rd gear going through corners and has enough oomph while other cars are busy heel and toeing and downshifting losing time! In short, you don't have to shift a lot even in racing, if you have too! The new ND2 is something.
Remember guys the ND also has about 20 years of R&D over the S2K. It came out in 99 and changed very little over its 10 year run, other than minor suspension tweaks over the years to address the oversteer issue that scared people or caught out unsuspecting / inexperienced drivers. Either way both are great cars, not knocking either. But one definitly has time on its side while the other has been out of production for some time now.
The s2000 is just plain heavy. The ND2 is stupid light and with the bump to 180hp it will dominate. And its motor will most likely respond well to mods just like the Honda K series motors! Good job Mazda!
Zygrene ...exactly! And I really do care about your impressions and opinion as I regard you highly in comparison to a lot of your fellow UA-cam colleagues....
Love how you thrash your S2000 around. Nice shifting. The miata is usually my go to car to argue with when discussing tracking your car. I always tell people with 500hp cars that that power doesn't matter much on a track. All that being said, I'd still take an S2000 over an nd anyday. Both amazing cars regardless
Power won't completely compensate for a major lack of experience/skill, but it still counts for something at Laguna haha. All the uphill straights are a struggle with anything less than 200hp. Maybe even 250hp!
I'd argue 500hp matters... in the right hands. Very few people can throw 500hp around competently. I don't think I could either. 300hp is a handful already.
@@youtubasoarus True. Stay tuned for my video of driving my buddy's modified E46 M3 here the same day. ~300whp vs ~200whp makes a BIG difference on the main straight and from turn 5 until the corkscrew. Also puts a lot more stress on the brakes because the cornering speed of the M3 (no aero but much better tires) is still similar to my S2000, meaning I have to brake earlier and harder for every single corner. So yeah, more power definitely takes some getting used to.
Yup. Too fast into the slower corners and fighting understeer rather than powering out past the apex. Impressed by that Mazda but there's another video on an ND2 keeping up with a 911 GT3 RS on the Nurburgring thanks to superb driving.
@@AliTaylor777 As much as being a good driver helps, track knowledge is KEY on the Nordschleife. Probably more than any other race track in the world because of the number of corners and overall length of the track. My friend races professionally for a team in Germany and he managed 8 minutes 50 seconds in his STOCK ND1 1.5 L Miata from BtG (his lap is on UA-cam). He'll be the first to tell you it's all about knowing the track and your car in order to have confidence to push the car to its limits. There's a lot of people who drive far more powerful cars at the Ring that don't want to wad up 300.000 euro of metal and end up on UA-cam which is the right attitude to have towards any track but especially the Nordschleife where there is little to no run-off.
andre surles I had a s2000 before selling it and getting a nc Miata with 2.5 swap. S2000 is a fun car, but the nc Miata’s capabilities were just much more. And the nd Miata is even better. I can put it like this. S2000 is a $10k chassis with a $20k engine. The nd Miata is a $25k chassis with a free economy engine.
Nice video. And obviously horsepower figures mean less in relation to an MX-5 and speed. ND1 is faster at 155hp than the previous 167hp NC. ND2 is a bonafide sleeper.
Why is this even suprising?? The ND2 is almost 17 years newer in design and development over the S2000. It's key advantage thou is it's power to weight, along with the latest in chassis tech it's no surprise close to stock S2000's struggle to catch them.
True but it's not always true that cars get better with time. Sometimes they get worse. Also the Miata starts at $26k...and that's after 17 years of inflation. An s2000 today would easily be over $50k. It's amazing that Mazda made this car so light and good while keeping the price this good. That is something that is very difficult to do.
The difference is noticeable, without really any added weight the extra horsepower makes a huge difference, now they just need to release some forced induction for the ND2. I have an ND2 and it's Garage mate will kinda make the 181 seem small when the Z will be sitting next to it.
For Speed Ventures down here in socal, it's standard procedure at every event to pre grid everyone by lap time with the exception of the first session.
I think you're understeering on turn five because you're over slowing and then compensating by being on the power too early before the apex. Like Takumi, roll the water around the brim of the cup.
Janis Pusmucans PS4S is a street tire that can rival the cup 2, but since the cup 2 R replaced it and that focused so much more on dry grip, i would say it kills you in the rain now
Are you sure cup 2R 'replacing' cup2? Imho it's another tire released/sold/complementing in parallel. At least i still can easily find/buy "normal" cup2. Though if only wet grip is main focus/priority, PS4S will obviously do better then cup2. In PS4S class I guess there also are conti sport contact 6 and goodyear f1 supersport.
I don't care much about wet grip on track, I just need enough wet grip to feel safe driving to/from the track on the freeway. I hear NT01 are really sketchy in the wet. Not sure about A052. PS4S isn't grippy enough for me and Cup 2 is too expensive, also not sure they are made in my size 255/40/17
Give the Michelin Pilot Super Sports a try if you haven't already. I drove a track-prepped BMW M235i that was equipped with these tires at Circuit de Spa-Francorchamps (completed twenty-four laps) and the Nurburgring Nordschleife. They also had good highway manners when I drove the car round-trip from Nurburg to Stavelot, Belgium.
@@chron151: MPSS are almost same as MPS4S, just with worse wear and less wet traction. If MPS4S were no go for choice, my bet is that MPSS won't do either, for same reasons.
I think your main problem was that you were overdriving a lot... Too fast on corner entries, too early on the throttle, especially on slower corners... Better tires will just postpone the bad habits. You will be faster, but that won't solve the over driving. I'd stick with the same tires and try to improve on those before going for something else. That would improve your driving and laptimes a lot more on the long run.
1:46 is quick at Laguna Seca, especially without a lot of horsepower. Have you driven the track before? (No, not simulated . . . just staying on throttle over the crest before turn 1 is difficult to do.)
@@Firebert79TA I haven't lived in the US long enough to do Laguna Seca no. But I do have quite a few years of experience on many different tracks, in north america, europe and japan...
@@Firebert79TA not sure... somewhere in between not counting back when I was gokarting. If we count entire weeks at a time on the nurburgring, it goes up pretty quickly...
Doesn't even matter which is better, but the fact that the S2k has risen so much in value over the last few years, is the reason why you should sell and pick up the newer and better in every way except motor ND2
So sell the car that's going up, and buy a car that's going down in value? That makes no sense to me. The S2K literally pays you to own it. Unless S2000 prices go down for some reason, in the long terms it's cheaper to own both instead of trading one for the other.
@Sergio Who cares? If you're drag racing S2Ks and Miatas, that's like doing autocross in a Funny Car or getting a Kawasaki Ninja for towing and hauling.
@Sergio Imo if you want 300hp in a Miata, you don't really care about preserving the numbers-matching engine anymore. And if you want 800hp, either car is s huge mistake in the first place.
i love both cars, but can we just appreciate that the current mx-5 is of the same spirit as the S2000? I thought we'd never see an equal to that again. I mean, i'm sure there are S2000-fanboys who will never admit to that, but it really is a gift from Mazda, that in this day and age they made the car the way they did, and said fuck the system- Driver first.
If you use more of the track/use a wider apex you can carry greater speed through the corner since its less stressful on the tires and chassis. Some tracks have dangerous curbs though so it’s not always advisable.
On your tire question, next step up go for NT01 / maxis RC1 then Toyo RR if more is wanted. NT01 can take a beating and keep sticking. Good tires to keep tracking on
I am not an expert by any means but it does seem like you are shifting early, especially since the s2k can rev to 9k. I think you aren’t hitting peak power, which always comes in late with Honda’s. I know it puts more wear on the engine, but hey, that’s racing.
I'm surprised to hear you say your tires left you after 10:00 minutes? And the weight difference really showed, plus that missed shift. Anyway, I suggest '0' toe, and add 2 psi to front tire and minus 1 to two psi in back. My thought is to balance grip front/back to gain neutral steering. If it works, you should be able to keep your speed going through turns. Good luck.
And when the S2000 came out many thought the s2000 is a lowly car that's trying to compete with a Boxster. It never really did beat the Boxster S. The vtec everyone praises comes on so high in the rpm range that around town below 5,000rpm the S2000 feels like a Civic. Not everyone wants to rev to 6,000+ at every light. That gets old very quick. Try not to think of the Miata as a lowly car. A small lightweight car is a big deal! BTW I don't consider the S2000 a lightweight car.
Great video. The speedsf challenge is a lot of fun! I keep having people say I should come meet you. I was in a 600lt, gt2 rs, and lp-570 superlegerra that day, so didn't have much extra time outside of coaching. Are you going to Sonoma with speedsf 24/25? I'll be driving the 25th. Maybe see you there.
Awesome sounds good! If you and any friends want to come up the 25th I’ll be going race pace with the green gt3rs and the acr both have been on the channel a lot and should be fun to watch. Challenge race that day too :). If not see you in June!
i agree turn 9 is the one corner that if everything else has become boring, turn 9 hasn't. It's such high speed and the camber is kinda bad so its pretty fun. Ido want something like this thats raw. My dad has an nd miata but its a bit small and slow for my liking. Its made me realize that these types of cars are way more fun than faster pedestrian cars for some reason. S2000 is too expensive for what it is though not sure if you have any suggestions for similar cars. Mabye a 981 porche or something? E92 m3s have insane engine just way too much weight although mabye e46 is tempting
That's interesting, i have gotten around 5,000 miles on the RE-71r Tires on my 350z and the tires still have some tread left above the wear bars. That include a track day with 4 20 minute session and a Time Attack Event with 7 15 minute session. However, I noticed the tires getting louder after some time. With the tires only lasting 3,500, that sounds like the car had alot of camber.
That's impressive! I expected you to blow past that Miata... maybe he has the driver mod? Seems silly but I've seen "inexplicable" things on track, making me go "how tf...", that only having the driver mod can explain. For tires, I'd suggest RE71r if you wanna go fast. Their life is stupid low. They're okay in the rain in my experience, as long as you're familiar with the S2000's spirit, which you are. I've always set my pb's with Hankooks so I'm partial to that brand... I also appreciate their slightly longer life. In my experience, RE71r's last 1 or 2, maybe 3 events going all out at their peak grip levels. However, I am not familiar with how Laguna Seca wears down tires.
The s2k body is quite old. Aero drag goes up exponentially with speed. Back when when mazda was crushing it on endurance racing with rotaries there was a prototype that got banned because the power to weight was too good but the power to drag ratio was so poor that it probably would never have been competitive anyways.
ST40 doesn't seem to make much of a difference (if at all) in outright stopping power, keeping in mind my tires are probably the limiting factor in braking. But the benefit is zero fade, whereas my old stock calipers/rotors with just pads and fluid would fade a bit after 10-15 min of hot lapping.
After hearing your comments about tires falling off and I change my recommendation to Ventus RS4's and have a second set of wheels that have RE71-Rs for the street and rain
Do RS4 hold up better to heat? I had them on my S2K a couple years ago but I was too slow of a driver to really get an accurate opinion on them on track
@@Zygrene yes, way better. They're not good in the rain and I really wouldn't recommended them for autocross, but you'll get your money's worth and more on road courses.
@@Zygrene for example, I wore a brand new set of RE71-Rs down to the beater bars in two days of 5 20-minute sessions. My next set of tires were RS4s, and lasted almost two years - and I'm doing at least 12 events a year, some are open track time (long sessions)
Did really good by the looks of things. I know you wanted to catch that Miata but I think concentrating on the track and your car is more important. Target locking is a bitch. Get so focused on what the other guy is doing you're not noticing yourself and what you're doing, saw you faltering a bit because of it. We all get that. But anyway, great laps! I thought you came in hot on the second to last corner but you took it really well, cars seems really setup well. Amazing what that car can do. I wonder what the brakes looked like afterwards! :) Wish I could get out there to have a few laps myself. Heh. Really enjoy your enthusiasm and getting out there so consistently.
I believe you’re off on your Miata chassis codes. There’s no such thing as an ND2, the ND is the newest model. The codes go in this order: NA, NB1, NB2, NC, and now ND. The NB2 started in 2001.
No I do believe he is correct in calling it ND2. As you're unaware, the ND is already in its 2nd revision, thus "ND2". This latest revision bumps horsepower up to 181hp and also has a higher redline. You should check out the latest reviews --the car has gone from great to excellent!
That’s news to me, I knew that it got the increase in power and redline but they never said originally that it would be called the ND2. Kinda weird how when they updated the NA and NC that they didn’t add the 2.
@@robwebb780 welp, you may have a point as to whether the ND2 moniker is official. I don't actually know if it is. But it's safe to say that regardless, it is now commonly accepted that ND2 refers to the power-bumped version.
Awesome driving. "Slow is faster. Be smooth." Idk who told me that, but it's true. Concentrating on taking your time and hitting all the right spots results in better times than trying to go "fast." You got a little hung up trying to catch the Miata, and it cost you time. But like I said, awesome driving! I must have clocked thousands of laps at Laguna Seca in Gran Tourismo, and you're damn good.
Boring and turbo shouldn't even be in the same sentence. But its a sad state of things and what the auto industry has become. Turbo used to mean performance not eco green fuel economy. Luckily we still have fun cars from the 80s/90s/00s to remind us what turbos were(once) about.
@@Zygrene an AP2 has shorter gearing? That's one of the changes they made with the newer BRZ. I have a 2013, but Engineering Explained changed his S2K rear diff and likes it a lot but he also Supercharged his.
@@cjones7854 It has the same final drive (but reinforced).. 5th and 6th are actually longer gears in the Ap2 (barely), but the secondary gear before the final drive is shorter. So effectively, you get shorter gearing in the lower gears, and similar gearing in 5th and 6th.
ooo interesting... I'll have to check those out! If they have the same or slightly more peak grip but (more importantly) better endurance, for about the same price, they will be a hell of a tire.
I know you are considering moving to a new chassis is the c5 corvette on your radar? Also as far as home alignments I found this kit ill be purchasing soon check it out looks promising Tenhulzen Auto 3300 2-Wheel Alignment System All-in-one Tool (Camber/Caster/Toe Plates) www.amazon.com/dp/B00PKI0YSU/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_44BXCbMB1NGH7
Found the ND2 owner's Instagram if anyone's curious about his setup! instagram.com/nd2mx5/
Awesome video once again! Would be super cool if you could get an interview w the driver and his car after you battle them on track :)
ua-cam.com/channels/ONp2b2SaaojUY7aOiBy_RA.html
^^^ His youtube channel :)
People seem to think that more horsepower is better, here we're seeing that it's not true. Miatas dont have a lot of power which means less time on the brakes and more full throttle runs.
@6:25 He killed his aero too with the root down
The ND2 in it's natural habitat is an apex predator.
ND2 is a good 500-600lbs lighter. Even though the s2000 has more power it's also lugging along the equivalent of 3 extra adults sitting in the car :) . To top it off ND2 has a broad hp/torque curve so it pulls all the way through, not just at 7,000+ like the S2000. ND2 is like a steerable/daily driver Elise. Not as hardcore as the Elise but pretty darn good at doing both street and track.
I think he should have driven an ap2. Im pretty sure the ap1 is slower than ap2.
That's exactly how I feel about my ND: "a daily-able Lotus."
S2000 keeps vtech and torque from 6-9k rpm
don't let the S2000 people hear this they will cry.
@@Kimoharoun yeah the ap2 is faster and has more torque, i had both and I loved the ap2 more, my ap1 had more sentimental value though
Mx5 owner... was expecting the ND to get whupped... happy to see it keep away from the s2000
ND had no wing on the back either like the S2000 did.
@@ag4allgood so??? the wing gives more grip
@@MrTAKIS1984 Yea so it decreases the S2000 track time ! Put a wing on the ND THEN compare them ! Make it fair.
@@ag4allgood miata is a gripy car from its own. it doesnt need the wing because of the weight. plus the miata engine gives more torque from lower rpm than the s2000 does. the only disadvantage for honda is the less top speed because of the wing. in corners had to be closer to miata but the honda driver pushed hard and tires died. you can easily hear the tires screaming. miata isnt a joke!
Next video: I sell the S2000 for an ND2 Miata.
Edison wow
So many people commenting on either ND2 or S2k when I say both! You can appreciate and want to own both as most people who enjoy driving should. The AP1 redline and vtec is something to behold along with possibly the best shifter I've ever felt. The ND2 has such a better low down tq and linear powerband. The weight advantage in the ND2 is also something not to ignore and makes daily driving at 35mph on streets a joy.
Exactly how I feel I have an ap2 and a ND2 lol I daily the ND2
As an owner of an ND2, its just a better car all around. Sorry but S2K owners will always find ways to justify their car when it gets beat by MX5s. May the MX5 crowd always stay open minded and humble. Its the best enthusiast group by far with knowlege and positive attitude. You were out there set to "beat a mazda". At no point was your S2K on that MX5s mind. He was probably just having a good time doing his personal best. You could probably do the same if you focused on just doing your personal best and possibly could have netted yourself a better time that day.
Those ND2s are no joke, still wish they had more power, 200NA would make that car amazing. I was getting my butt kicked on Sat by NDs in my non areo S2.
A company called BBR GTI in the UK announced on their facebook page that they are working on a remap + exhaust package which exceeds well over 200hp. They are developing camshafts too to make another 10-20hp too.
Go check Orange Virus Tuning. Pretty much the most solid and cost effective way to get power out of a Skyactiv
@@gerardjoaquino8856 Didnt see the new ND listed but it is brand new so maybe in a few months.
At 181hp it's already faster than S2000. Not sure what's so magical about 200hp besides it sounds like a good number. Remember it's also 500-600lbs lighter than S2000. You can get to 200hp+ with tune and exhaust.
@@kumsman: If this gen miata engine is anything like the previous engines than full exhaust and a tune will gain you nearly nothing. NA and NB miata best results from a full exhaust and a tune if you can find anyone who will tune your stock ecu is 5-8HP no joke. Hopefully this new engine will be better for naturally aspirated builds than the old ones.
Also I second the motion that a miata all generations thus far would be perfectly balanced with a 200hp engine.
Lots of excuses in the video text... it IS Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca after all. Nice driving! It looked great.
The ND and ND2 are excellent cars. I've now weighed my Stock Canadian ND Club with Cloth Interior, ragtop (no RF) - 2189lbs no driver, 1/4 tank of fuel.
I was there in my lowly ND1 running novice. I met him briefly but didn't want to bug him as he was always tinkering with his car. Heard from others that he was running MCS 2 ways/r888r/RR/swaybars. The ND2 engine does make a big difference on the straights. Time difference between the global cup cars for nd1 vs nd2 are around 2 seconds at COTA.
Yep his tires and suspension (and light weight) definitely made up for the ~60hp power gap
Picked up my ND2 last Friday, its fuckin awesome
After watching this video, I am more proud to say that my first brand new car was a 2019 Mazda MX-5 that I bought last year on September, I think that I was one of the first in my country (Mexico) and also in the world!
Aside from it's still being lightweight, the ND2 has its 6th gear at 1:1 ratio. Although it has a very short 1st gear ratio of 5. 087 and 2nd gear ratio of 2.991, you still can go 0-60 mph still in 2nd gear. It has a very broad power band. You can stay in gear, say in 3rd gear going through corners and has enough oomph while other cars are busy heel and toeing and downshifting losing time! In short, you don't have to shift a lot even in racing, if you have too! The new ND2 is something.
The ND2 is the better car. Period.
Remember guys the ND also has about 20 years of R&D over the S2K. It came out in 99 and changed very little over its 10 year run, other than minor suspension tweaks over the years to address the oversteer issue that scared people or caught out unsuspecting / inexperienced drivers.
Either way both are great cars, not knocking either. But one definitly has time on its side while the other has been out of production for some time now.
The s2000 is just plain heavy. The ND2 is stupid light and with the bump to 180hp it will dominate. And its motor will most likely respond well to mods just like the Honda K series motors! Good job Mazda!
Honda needs to update the s2000 for sure.
We learn that the young don’t modify or give up on upgrades, S2K is an excellent product. Hope you don’t give up in it.
Damn. He is surprisingly extremely fast. Was very surprised you couldn't catch him.
Finally, ND2 is appearing on your channel.....👍👍👍
I know! The press release was such an "I told you so" moment since I specifically asked for a 180hp 7500rpm ND in my review of the ND1 haha
Zygrene ...exactly! And I really do care about your impressions and opinion as I regard you highly in comparison to a lot of your fellow UA-cam colleagues....
@@fragu123 that's very flattering, I will take that to heart when filming the ND2!
Zygrene ...when do you think we will be able to see the video?
@@fragu123 I'm hoping to film it in early May, so look for the video by mid May!
Love how you thrash your S2000 around. Nice shifting. The miata is usually my go to car to argue with when discussing tracking your car. I always tell people with 500hp cars that that power doesn't matter much on a track. All that being said, I'd still take an S2000 over an nd anyday. Both amazing cars regardless
Power won't completely compensate for a major lack of experience/skill, but it still counts for something at Laguna haha. All the uphill straights are a struggle with anything less than 200hp. Maybe even 250hp!
@@Zygrene agreed
I'd argue 500hp matters... in the right hands. Very few people can throw 500hp around competently. I don't think I could either. 300hp is a handful already.
@@youtubasoarus I hear ya brotha
@@youtubasoarus True. Stay tuned for my video of driving my buddy's modified E46 M3 here the same day. ~300whp vs ~200whp makes a BIG difference on the main straight and from turn 5 until the corkscrew. Also puts a lot more stress on the brakes because the cornering speed of the M3 (no aero but much better tires) is still similar to my S2000, meaning I have to brake earlier and harder for every single corner. So yeah, more power definitely takes some getting used to.
Slow down to go faster, looks like you are over driving the car. Tires will help, but you’ll help more than the tires.
Yup. Too fast into the slower corners and fighting understeer rather than powering out past the apex. Impressed by that Mazda but there's another video on an ND2 keeping up with a 911 GT3 RS on the Nurburgring thanks to superb driving.
fuck off you've probably never raced on a track, acting like you know something about racing
@@AliTaylor777 As much as being a good driver helps, track knowledge is KEY on the Nordschleife. Probably more than any other race track in the world because of the number of corners and overall length of the track. My friend races professionally for a team in Germany and he managed 8 minutes 50 seconds in his STOCK ND1 1.5 L Miata from BtG (his lap is on UA-cam). He'll be the first to tell you it's all about knowing the track and your car in order to have confidence to push the car to its limits. There's a lot of people who drive far more powerful cars at the Ring that don't want to wad up 300.000 euro of metal and end up on UA-cam which is the right attitude to have towards any track but especially the Nordschleife where there is little to no run-off.
@@xXilisminusXx , quite the opposite. Done my fair share in my youth, and some rallying too. Bit of a family tradition...
andre surles I had a s2000 before selling it and getting a nc Miata with 2.5 swap. S2000 is a fun car, but the nc Miata’s capabilities were just much more. And the nd Miata is even better. I can put it like this. S2000 is a $10k chassis with a $20k engine. The nd Miata is a $25k chassis with a free economy engine.
400 lbs weight difference in favor of the Miata is significant!
I recommend the RA1. Long lasting, get more grip as they wear, and good rain tires
Wow. Awesome video. Thank you for the upload!
Nice video. And obviously horsepower figures mean less in relation to an MX-5 and speed. ND1 is faster at 155hp than the previous 167hp NC. ND2 is a bonafide sleeper.
speed relaes to horsepower torque curb weight aerodynamics gearing
Why is this even suprising?? The ND2 is almost 17 years newer in design and development over the S2000. It's key advantage thou is it's power to weight, along with the latest in chassis tech it's no surprise close to stock S2000's struggle to catch them.
True but it's not always true that cars get better with time. Sometimes they get worse. Also the Miata starts at $26k...and that's after 17 years of inflation. An s2000 today would easily be over $50k. It's amazing that Mazda made this car so light and good while keeping the price this good. That is something that is very difficult to do.
I bet this ND2 owner doesn't wish he had more power hehe
The Nd2 is just new tech. A 20 year difference in engineering & technology.
ND Miata's are a blast. I havent driven the ND2 but my ND1 felt fast enough.
The difference is noticeable, without really any added weight the extra horsepower makes a huge difference, now they just need to release some forced induction for the ND2. I have an ND2 and it's Garage mate will kinda make the 181 seem small when the Z will be sitting next to it.
Miata is always the answer
ND2 driver > you
Lol
JapapaBeatz I’m just trolling him, I’m a subscriber lol
😂
@@nd1262 You are not wrong though
For Speed Ventures down here in socal, it's standard procedure at every event to pre grid everyone by lap time with the exception of the first session.
I think you're understeering on turn five because you're over slowing and then compensating by being on the power too early before the apex. Like Takumi, roll the water around the brim of the cup.
How about a modified S2000 vs a Type R on that course?
Everybody knows top down adds 50 hp man!
Yep!!
Nice driving! Fun to watch
Mx5 might not be for drag but for sure they are track cars, pulling away with almost 100 hp less? Sick af
Pretty sure the ND2 has 181hp vs like 221hp in the s2k? Considering the mx5 is also like 200kg lighter this makes sense
Great video. Looked like a lot of fun.
Hmm, how about Cup2 for tires? Also how about playing more with tire pressures for onsite handling adjustments ..
Janis Pusmucans PS4S is a street tire that can rival the cup 2, but since the cup 2 R replaced it and that focused so much more on dry grip, i would say it kills you in the rain now
Are you sure cup 2R 'replacing' cup2? Imho it's another tire released/sold/complementing in parallel. At least i still can easily find/buy "normal" cup2. Though if only wet grip is main focus/priority, PS4S will obviously do better then cup2. In PS4S class I guess there also are conti sport contact 6 and goodyear f1 supersport.
I don't care much about wet grip on track, I just need enough wet grip to feel safe driving to/from the track on the freeway. I hear NT01 are really sketchy in the wet. Not sure about A052. PS4S isn't grippy enough for me and Cup 2 is too expensive, also not sure they are made in my size 255/40/17
Give the Michelin Pilot Super Sports a try if you haven't already. I drove a track-prepped BMW M235i that was equipped with these tires at Circuit de Spa-Francorchamps (completed twenty-four laps) and the Nurburgring Nordschleife. They also had good highway manners when I drove the car round-trip from Nurburg to Stavelot, Belgium.
@@chron151: MPSS are almost same as MPS4S, just with worse wear and less wet traction. If MPS4S were no go for choice, my bet is that MPSS won't do either, for same reasons.
I thought that the S2000 would have done better, guess it's time to get rid of my 07 AP2 with 40K miles on it..........(Not!)
Do you take it easy on your girlfriend so its prime for the next guy?
@@hackdeez1075 Ya, prime & old.
I think your main problem was that you were overdriving a lot... Too fast on corner entries, too early on the throttle, especially on slower corners... Better tires will just postpone the bad habits. You will be faster, but that won't solve the over driving. I'd stick with the same tires and try to improve on those before going for something else. That would improve your driving and laptimes a lot more on the long run.
1:46 is quick at Laguna Seca, especially without a lot of horsepower. Have you driven the track before? (No, not simulated . . . just staying on throttle over the crest before turn 1 is difficult to do.)
@@Firebert79TA I haven't lived in the US long enough to do Laguna Seca no. But I do have quite a few years of experience on many different tracks, in north america, europe and japan...
@@traxnada I can't tell if that means you've done 3 track days or 300.
@@Firebert79TA not sure... somewhere in between not counting back when I was gokarting. If we count entire weeks at a time on the nurburgring, it goes up pretty quickly...
@@traxnada Yep, one lap on the Nordschleife is like the equivalent to three laps at Spa.
Amazing driving man! You really make it look easy.
Doesn't even matter which is better, but the fact that the S2k has risen so much in value over the last few years, is the reason why you should sell and pick up the newer and better in every way except motor ND2
So sell the car that's going up, and buy a car that's going down in value? That makes no sense to me. The S2K literally pays you to own it. Unless S2000 prices go down for some reason, in the long terms it's cheaper to own both instead of trading one for the other.
@@JETZcorp yes.
@Sergio hahah is that why the fastest s2k's have a K-series under the hood? The value of Miatas has also skyrocketed and they're only going to go up.
@Sergio Who cares? If you're drag racing S2Ks and Miatas, that's like doing autocross in a Funny Car or getting a Kawasaki Ninja for towing and hauling.
@Sergio Imo if you want 300hp in a Miata, you don't really care about preserving the numbers-matching engine anymore. And if you want 800hp, either car is s huge mistake in the first place.
i love both cars, but can we just appreciate that the current mx-5 is of the same spirit as the S2000? I thought we'd never see an equal to that again. I mean, i'm sure there are S2000-fanboys who will never admit to that, but it really is a gift from Mazda, that in this day and age they made the car the way they did, and said fuck the system- Driver first.
Lotus: Hold my beer!
did the nd2 driver even know about the "s2000 vs nd2" video or was he just doing warmup laps? ;PPPP
Very consistent, I love it! I’m still at around 1:50 at Laguna. I need to follow you at the next SpeedSF event.
Have you considered doing a gear change so you can pull 4th going up Rahal straight?
Why is the S2000 driver on the side of the track (speed bumps) so often ?
Most cars in races hit those bumps. Its nothing new.
If you use more of the track/use a wider apex you can carry greater speed through the corner since its less stressful on the tires and chassis. Some tracks have dangerous curbs though so it’s not always advisable.
Watching this to see what times I should expect with my K24A2 NA Miata!
That sounds like the most fun car in the universe, short of maybe a rotary-swapped MR2.
Miata
Is
Always
The
Answer
On your tire question, next step up go for NT01 / maxis RC1 then Toyo RR if more is wanted. NT01 can take a beating and keep sticking. Good tires to keep tracking on
I am not an expert by any means but it does seem like you are shifting early, especially since the s2k can rev to 9k. I think you aren’t hitting peak power, which always comes in late with Honda’s. I know it puts more wear on the engine, but hey, that’s racing.
I have the 2.2L AP2 motor that revs safely to 8200 rpm. Not the 2.0 AP1 that can rev to 9k
Did you want streetable and rain, then I recommend the RE71-Rs.
I'm surprised to hear you say your tires left you after 10:00 minutes? And the weight difference really showed, plus that missed shift. Anyway, I suggest '0' toe, and add 2 psi to front tire and minus 1 to two psi in back. My thought is to balance grip front/back to gain neutral steering. If it works, you should be able to keep your speed going through turns. Good luck.
prontopac those federals are garbage tires.
The Nd2 is the new s2000! Who would of thought that the lowly Miata would be this capable.
And when the S2000 came out many thought the s2000 is a lowly car that's trying to compete with a Boxster. It never really did beat the Boxster S. The vtec everyone praises comes on so high in the rpm range that around town below 5,000rpm the S2000 feels like a Civic. Not everyone wants to rev to 6,000+ at every light. That gets old very quick. Try not to think of the Miata as a lowly car. A small lightweight car is a big deal! BTW I don't consider the S2000 a lightweight car.
Instead of buying an ND2. I got an ND1 then supercharged it! It is now at 202wHP!
That is good comparison, can't wait to get to Laguna with NC 2.5 and see what lap times it will make.
Looks so fun! 👍 could the massive wing have contributed to the understeer?
I think it was the alignment. My car didn't understeer this badly before, even with the wing
Great video. The speedsf challenge is a lot of fun! I keep having people say I should come meet you. I was in a 600lt, gt2 rs, and lp-570 superlegerra that day, so didn't have much extra time outside of coaching. Are you going to Sonoma with speedsf 24/25? I'll be driving the 25th. Maybe see you there.
We should definitely meet soon! I don't have any track days lined up for May, but let's plan for June
Awesome sounds good! If you and any friends want to come up the 25th I’ll be going race pace with the green gt3rs and the acr both have been on the channel a lot and should be fun to watch. Challenge race that day too :). If not see you in June!
How is the the LP-570 on track? Do you think the RWD version would be a better performer?
Feel like you were shifting too soon and not dropping gears soon enough
He could have been on full race slick, you should have been catching him on the uphill or the straightaway.
Looking at his Instagram, I believe he was on MCS coilovers and Toyo RR. Either that or Nitto NT01.
I was on RRs :)
Nash Ramar noice!
love that track great video!
Great driving!! Out of curiosity what is your average lap time?
In the S2000 I was averaging 1:46. I assume the ND2 was very close.
i agree turn 9 is the one corner that if everything else has become boring, turn 9 hasn't. It's such high speed and the camber is kinda bad so its pretty fun. Ido want something like this thats raw. My dad has an nd miata but its a bit small and slow for my liking. Its made me realize that these types of cars are way more fun than faster pedestrian cars for some reason. S2000 is too expensive for what it is though not sure if you have any suggestions for similar cars. Mabye a 981 porche or something? E92 m3s have insane engine just way too much weight although mabye e46 is tempting
I'm curious to see how an AP2 would do. Since they have more grunt and are a little more controllable.
I have an AP2 motor swap but the longer AP1 gearing. AP2 is definitely less twitchy though
Sounds phenomenal.
RE71R are great dry and wet, fully streetable. Do not last long though.
That's what I've heard. I had em on my NSX and the rears were gone after 3500 miles of street driving.
That's interesting, i have gotten around 5,000 miles on the RE-71r Tires on my 350z and the tires still have some tread left above the wear bars. That include a track day with 4 20 minute session and a Time Attack Event with 7 15 minute session. However, I noticed the tires getting louder after some time. With the tires only lasting 3,500, that sounds like the car had alot of camber.
How it the nd2 faster than the s2000 when it has around 60 less hp?
400 lb difference makes up the HP gap. The other factors like driver skills equalize the remaining gap.
That's impressive! I expected you to blow past that Miata... maybe he has the driver mod? Seems silly but I've seen "inexplicable" things on track, making me go "how tf...", that only having the driver mod can explain. For tires, I'd suggest RE71r if you wanna go fast. Their life is stupid low. They're okay in the rain in my experience, as long as you're familiar with the S2000's spirit, which you are. I've always set my pb's with Hankooks so I'm partial to that brand... I also appreciate their slightly longer life. In my experience, RE71r's last 1 or 2, maybe 3 events going all out at their peak grip levels. However, I am not familiar with how Laguna Seca wears down tires.
the ND has proven to be much faster on track than one might expect. very good chassis and broad powerband for a 4cyl.
The s2k body is quite old. Aero drag goes up exponentially with speed. Back when when mazda was crushing it on endurance racing with rotaries there was a prototype that got banned because the power to weight was too good but the power to drag ratio was so poor that it probably would never have been competitive anyways.
Hopefully rainy season is over.... get a052!
@zygrene how hot was it this Sunday at Laguna? And what was the weather like last time you went?
What did you think of the ST40? What did you run before? Any difference?
ST40 doesn't seem to make much of a difference (if at all) in outright stopping power, keeping in mind my tires are probably the limiting factor in braking. But the benefit is zero fade, whereas my old stock calipers/rotors with just pads and fluid would fade a bit after 10-15 min of hot lapping.
Vtech always wins, as he’s passing the Miata on a cool down lap lol
No shit :)
Qualified?
After hearing your comments about tires falling off and I change my recommendation to Ventus RS4's and have a second set of wheels that have RE71-Rs for the street and rain
Do RS4 hold up better to heat? I had them on my S2K a couple years ago but I was too slow of a driver to really get an accurate opinion on them on track
@@Zygrene yes, way better. They're not good in the rain and I really wouldn't recommended them for autocross, but you'll get your money's worth and more on road courses.
@@Zygrene for example, I wore a brand new set of RE71-Rs down to the beater bars in two days of 5 20-minute sessions. My next set of tires were RS4s, and lasted almost two years - and I'm doing at least 12 events a year, some are open track time (long sessions)
Did really good by the looks of things. I know you wanted to catch that Miata but I think concentrating on the track and your car is more important. Target locking is a bitch. Get so focused on what the other guy is doing you're not noticing yourself and what you're doing, saw you faltering a bit because of it. We all get that. But anyway, great laps! I thought you came in hot on the second to last corner but you took it really well, cars seems really setup well. Amazing what that car can do. I wonder what the brakes looked like afterwards! :) Wish I could get out there to have a few laps myself. Heh. Really enjoy your enthusiasm and getting out there so consistently.
I believe you’re off on your Miata chassis codes. There’s no such thing as an ND2, the ND is the newest model. The codes go in this order: NA, NB1, NB2, NC, and now ND. The NB2 started in 2001.
No I do believe he is correct in calling it ND2. As you're unaware, the ND is already in its 2nd revision, thus "ND2". This latest revision bumps horsepower up to 181hp and also has a higher redline. You should check out the latest reviews --the car has gone from great to excellent!
That’s news to me, I knew that it got the increase in power and redline but they never said originally that it would be called the ND2. Kinda weird how when they updated the NA and NC that they didn’t add the 2.
@@robwebb780 welp, you may have a point as to whether the ND2 moniker is official. I don't actually know if it is. But it's safe to say that regardless, it is now commonly accepted that ND2 refers to the power-bumped version.
Can’t beat a Miata! Miatas are beasts
The s2000 is way too heavy for what it is.
Pretty good IMO, nice driving
That miata is hard to beat its fast turn in and corner speeds
Zoom zoom! ND2 FTW!!!🤩
BFG Comp 2s. I've loved the 2 sets I have had. Or get Michelins if they're in the budget.
Thumbs up on comp2s, the wet grip is also incredible
Awesome driving.
"Slow is faster. Be smooth." Idk who told me that, but it's true. Concentrating on taking your time and hitting all the right spots results in better times than trying to go "fast." You got a little hung up trying to catch the Miata, and it cost you time.
But like I said, awesome driving! I must have clocked thousands of laps at Laguna Seca in Gran Tourismo, and you're damn good.
Are you on stock Ecu ?
Yup stock AP1 ECU
The NT01s are great man, I'd highly recommend them
Nice I was there 4/20 Sat and did a 1:46.87 in my Audi S3 I was pretty darn stoked with that.
You need more power. Time to get a sos supercharger. There great for track use. It would really wake up your car.
Hi Benton I am Fenton
@@Zygrene that's so random it's funny 😂
I look forward to being able to get my hands on a MX5.
The answer is always...
VTEC!! Kidding lol. Skyactiv-G is pretty legit.
Have to add, I so miss that VTEC sound in a world of boring turbos and pointlessly heavy hybrid gubbins.
Boring and turbo shouldn't even be in the same sentence. But its a sad state of things and what the auto industry has become. Turbo used to mean performance not eco green fuel economy.
Luckily we still have fun cars from the 80s/90s/00s to remind us what turbos were(once) about.
If my math is right, the S2K should still have the power to weight, so that ND must have some mods.
Don't forget, the ND2 has a broader torque curve, so while our friend here is having gearing trouble, the ND2 has the advantage.
@@aisu8481 haha and that's with my 2.2L F22C swap too. AP2 gearing would help me stay in the power band better.
@@Zygrene an AP2 has shorter gearing? That's one of the changes they made with the newer BRZ. I have a 2013, but Engineering Explained changed his S2K rear diff and likes it a lot but he also Supercharged his.
@@cjones7854 It has the same final drive (but reinforced).. 5th and 6th are actually longer gears in the Ap2 (barely), but the secondary gear before the final drive is shorter. So effectively, you get shorter gearing in the lower gears, and similar gearing in 5th and 6th.
RE-71Rs for sure, call brad at TireRack
Who's Brad? Will I get the homie hookup? 🙂
Try falken azeniz rt615k+
Looks so fun.
Make a mariner blue one already
Federal has the new 595RS-PRO check t hose out.
ooo interesting... I'll have to check those out! If they have the same or slightly more peak grip but (more importantly) better endurance, for about the same price, they will be a hell of a tire.
What about a Miata with a K swap? Does VTEC still win then?
😁
Imagine miata with the 200hp k24...
Not everyone likes vtec. It's like a turbo that comes on at 6,000 rpm. That's a lot of lag and really doesn't feel special below that.
Ya Skyactivtec 😂
I know you are considering moving to a new chassis is the c5 corvette on your radar? Also as far as home alignments I found this kit ill be purchasing soon check it out looks promising
Tenhulzen Auto 3300 2-Wheel Alignment System All-in-one Tool (Camber/Caster/Toe Plates) www.amazon.com/dp/B00PKI0YSU/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_44BXCbMB1NGH7
I gave up on the new track car idea. Sticking with the S2K a while longer. It's fun trying to chase down faster/newer cars!
Lol so you won by the Miata stopping.. oh you Honda guys are something else