@@EvelynH-tj1qt Depends on how big your yard is. Suburban backyard on a cul-de-sac? Nah probably not a good idea. Bat-fuck nowhere where your closest neighbor is a mile away? Fuck it bring out the 50 bmg.
the barrel easily weight more than ammo, itll weight as much as a few mags. if you could shorten it by a few inches without losing accuracy that will allow you to hold even one more mag it will be worth it.
It’s actually been addressed in G11’s development and what we commonly hear repeated now are just outdated info. There was a rather recent development too in the form of the caseless variant of the LSAT LMG. It was fairly competent but was not pursued further as CT showed more promise.
Once we can figure out more powerful batteries, I think electric weapons like railguns or coilguns will solve the ammo weight issue. I know we are nowhere near that yet, but I look forward to advancing tech.
I think in Italy you need to have a gun license and or a gunsmith license (for producing receivers and such) but I'm no Italian so take my word with a grain of salt
It's not much harder than starting up a restaurant or a driving school really, but like any new "company" it requires quite a few expenses and time, so I would only do it if my viewers are interested enough. But apparently they are😉
Textron has actually already addressed both issues you’ve brought up with CT. It’s actually one of the three entries of the US NGSW program that’s set to conclude around 2021, though likely extended due to current events. Firstly, because the CT case is polymer, it expands and forms a seal over the chamber and over the chamber to barrel gap, allowing all gas to be funneled down the barrel. This, coupled with the effective heat insulation of the case material, has lead to an increase in bullet performance down range. Second, Textron’s rifle entry into the NGSW program does feature a linear moving chamber that gets pushed down by a pair of tracks connected to the “bolt” carrier. As the carrier recoils, it pulls the tracks back which are curved downwards after the initial straight lines, forcing the chamber downwards and aligned with the next round in the magazine. As the bolt comes forward, it pushes the next round into the chamber and the first out, ejecting it through the ejection chute and the chamber is allowed to rise up under spring tension after the reload is fully completed and the tracks become straight again.
Lassi Kinnunen I’m fairly certain both have been evaluated during LSAT and this is just further reiterations based on the military’s needs. There are quite a few articles done by TFB if you search the LSAT tag that talk about it quite extensively
Personally haven't looked in to or heard about these tests, and while it sounds good, I suspect that in the real world they will become jam-o-matics. Not only would I suspect that it is vulnerable to any problems in large production polymer processes, but ejecting long straight wall cases tends to create problems, and pushing them totally through seems like a recipe for mechanical failures. I look forward to reading the results.
I've seen models of them. They are far more complex than your average military rifle, which is usually a bad thing. Also we don't know if these issues have been addressed or they just claim to have been. That's why they are being tested c:
Tank shells have a casing that burns up when the shell is shot, so you are left with only the metal cap. This is important since there's not enough space inside the turret to hold a whole bunch of spent casings. Maybe some rifle ammo will go that route
I'm wondering how the pressure curve in that last round would look like, since the powder ignition pattern and gas flow in the chamber would be so different than in conventional ammunition. Great quality content from you, as always. I already subscribed to your channel a long time ago, but I really hope you get way more subscribers. Your really deserve it. Have you considered doing a collaboration video with bigger channels like Forgotten Weapons or C&Rsenal? I would believe your highly detailed and technical approach would go in line with their type of content, and their higher subscriptor numbers would mean good publicity for your channel. Greetings from Argentina!
hey there, thanks for the kind words. I'd love to collaborate with such channels, but I'm afraid they're too big to be bothered doing a collaboration with me. I would really love to though
@@oliverpasztor788 another Brit has a video about a "belt-fed lever-action bull-pup" chambered in .44mag modified from a Ruger rifle if I remember correctly.
Oh it worked well with a 3 round burst before the recoil hit the shooter with the g11 and it was more accurate then the standard g3 also you would have 3 single staked magazines with 50 rounds each on the gun the other 2 where spare mags so instead of carrying them have them on the gun already And it’s just fun to think about that if all the plastic parts from the g11 are gone you just have a giant peace of gears one barrel with a recoil spring on one side of the barrel and on the other the gas piston and the chamber is a rotating wheel with square holes in it and a plunger that pushes the round out of the chamber if there is a potential misfire also the cleaning kit is just in the grip and it’s just a brass brush to clean the chamber from the hold where a round would leave the chamber if it nisfired
Idea - Casings that burn, melt, or vaporize from the heat of the propellant, and are vented out of the barrel or an actuating vent instead of a traditional extractor. I assume the casing would be significantly lighter than the normal metal kind, and would still be able to prevent heat transfer like a normal casing does.
This idea was experimented by The Steyr ACR (telescopic plastic cased ammo) and the HK G11 (Completely caseless ammo) . The big problem is that both had Major problems of Propellant Cook-off on both and a problem unique of the Steyr ACR which was fragmented cases that endangered bystanders and the user.
Imagine reloading your magazine under fire in a fox hole and everyone is yelling at you to hurry up meanwhile every 3rd round of careless ammo you insert breaks.......
That is why the G11's ammo came in plastic cases not unlike Candy Pez dispensers. You stuck them on the end of a G11 mag and it fed them in when you pushed on the back of the case of ammo.
@@MichaelCorryFilms and I probably should've added this. But the 3d printed trounds aren't exactly Perfect either, they're just adaptors to Normal rounds.
@@gagejohnathan9641 Yeah, I've seen the issues you are talking about with the plastics cracking, etc. and an adapter really isn't the point. I do think it would interesting to experiment with. There were apparently aluminum casings made and I wonder if some of the infused 3d plastics may work.
@Ra Mo lol I'm pretty sure we do stuff like lead free ammo because we're a part of NATO. I sincerely doubt that plastic casings would be allowed. But who knows maybe I'm wrong.
I for one would love to see you get a gunsmithing license to try out these weird designs. Maybe consider taking an inspiration from Halo's SMG since iirc it uses square caseless ammo
Many sci-fi weapons say they use "caseless ammo", but given the fact an art director/3D designer doesn't necessarily have to be a mechanical engineer or a gunsmith I doubt most actually work.
Another great video ! I hope this channel gets the recognition it deserves as I don't know of many more firearms channels that present the topic in such interesting and intelligent ways !
I still feel this channel is incredibly underrated. Get that license. I look forward to seeing what comes next! Till then I will continue recommending this channel to people.
The high capacity Volcanic pistol of the late 19th century used the hollow bullet as the powder case. It was underpowered - there isn't enough room inside the bullet if you're using black powder. I think the idea could be tried again with smokeless - since smokeless powder has about three times the energy density of black powder. A fast powder like Bullseye would make the most sense. Even so, a modern version would not be a magnum. Primerless, electric ignition has been successfully done, there used to be an electrically ignited muzzle loader on the market. A modern, electrically primed version of Volcanic pistol could work, the ammo could save a lot of weight.
@@deandeann1541 Calling the volcanic underpowered is a bit like calling the universe big. It's true, but not a powerful enough descriptor. Modern .22 LR has about twice the power of the original Volcanic repeater. Smokeless powder can reach maximum chamber pressures about three times as high as black powder but that doesn't mean the bullet has three times as much energy on target. Furthermore, the limitations of the design on the Volcanic pistol and ammunition mean much lower chamber pressures are safe to use. At best you're probably looking at a 30% increase in muzzle energy but that's pretty optimistic and it's still not even close to .22 LR. And to compete with modern pistols it has to be semi-automatic or at least double action like a revolver. It sounds possible to make one that is reliable but it would be more expensive to produce. Especially if it's electronically fired (Which I've seen done before but it still required a primer to reliably ignite the gunpowder and it was a dismal failure commercially.) It sounds like a cool novelty project but I don't think it's in any way practical to have a really expensive pistol that's less powerful than .22 LR, with ammunition that is actually heavier than .22 LR, and is potentially unreliable. The advantage for such a handgun is that you wouldn't be leaving a little brass case I guess.
Russians did that with the VAG-72/73. Basically is was like the Gyrojet but the primer was made to disintegrate releasing all the gasses quickly rather than over time.
If the weight to propellant ratio of the rocket ball was fixed. Perhaps by using soild copper or aluminum bullets that can still engauge the rifling, the velocity jump should bring it on par with say a 9mm. A blow forward design could be used to rechamber the rifle, but then you run into the problem of making the rifle heavier than the ammo weight saved
your explanation about CT ammo makes textron's bid in the NGSW program make much more sense, I didn't know how much more fitting that design was to plastic cased cartridges. thank you!
I just found this channel and it’s exactly what I’ve been looking for. I don’t want to watch people shoot huge guns at wacky things over and over again. I just want to learn about the guns and such. Very interesting channel. And I hope you get your license!
If you actually end up getting a manufacture license, go with the up-down as in your model and make it a gas-action Toggel lock......... Yes you can all hit me, but hey, rule of cool
One of the more interesting ideas I saw for a case-less round can be compared to a naval gun. It used a compressed pellet of powder and an interesting action to first feed and chamber the bullet, then seat the pellet and close the breech. Electronically fired and single shot, but it worked.
Here's an idea for a cartridge for a "muzzle loader" that could fire at speeds comparable to a breech loader. The cartridge and the barrel are one and the same. The cartridge is extended and the bullet is seated deeply in it so the cartridge can act as the barrel. It would lock into some base with a trigger in it to fire the round. After that you simply pull the whole cartridge out, discard it, and insert a new one. Let's say the base that the cartridge is attached to has a steel tube to support the cartridge where the pressures are the highest. Perhaps it also has some locking lugs on it so you could twist it into place. The cartridges would be fairly heavy and expensive but it fills all the criteria. It is a self contained cartridge that is inserted into the "muzzle" of a tube that is permanently sealed on one end (except for maybe a small hole for the ignition source to go through if the cartridge lacks a primer) but can be reloaded at the speed of a single shot breach loader. This idea would probably work best for pistols where the pressures are lower and the barrel lengths are shorter. That would save on weight through both a thinner cartridge and a shorter cartridge. Edit: fixed quotation marks
Metal Storm Limited's MAUL project has a very similar intent to this. The rounds are stacked in the barrel, with each layer of propellant being electronically activated by the pull of the trigger. They're projects are worth a read.
@@suprtroopr1028 I heard about it. It is not unlike a modern version of the Chamber's Flintlock Machine Gun. It was invented in the 1780s and used in the war of 1812 on the USS Constitute. It could fire 120 rounds a minute for about 2 minutes. So really when anyone says "they never could have predicted automatic weapons" they are wrong, they were well aware of the possibility. Especially the Founding Fathers of America as it was shown to them by the inventor. No surviving documents of its efficacy on the USS Constitution are known to exist.
I would build the catrige out of an Material that get fully burned by Shooting. Like cellulose or something. After each shot, the ammunition get fully burned up. I know there are some problems too, but its a way to make a stable catrige and protect the powder a little from heating.
Another weird one would be the Daisy caseless ammo from the 60s (I think). It was made and sold commercially, with no military attempts that I am aware of.
@@flightlesschicken7769 yup, that is my understanding as well. Daisy wasnt licensed as a firearms manufacturer. The "VL" ammunition looks like a green feed pellet stuck on the back of a 22 bullet. There is some for sale locally right now.... wonder it it works still :p
For your proposed closed breach weapon you could stack caseless ammunition similar to the multiprojectile civil war era weapons. Theoretically you could stack as many shots in the barrel as you have room and touch off each charge in sequence. Alternatively there was one design where the center of each projectile had a small passage which allowed each round to be automatically lit by the one ahead of it. You could have a 50 shot automatic with no way to stop it :p
I think you gave us a big clue to a potential solution of the challenge with the segment on cookoff. Use a ramrod to strip off a caseless round from a magazine ahead of the open end of the barrel and push it to the closed end. Remove the ramrod. Use a method of rapidly heating the closed end of the barrel above cookoff temperature. Magnetic induction could be used, or just conduct heat into the barrel by contacting it with an already heated block of metal. After firing, remove the heat source and rapidly cool the barrel some way (contact with a heatsink block) to prevent immediate cookoff of the next round inserted with the ramrod. If the barrel remained strong enough to withstand ignition pressures while also being made from a material that is less susceptible to magnetic induction of heat, a small heatable "primer" element could be inserted into the rear of each caseless round instead. That means you don't have to heat the barrel directly and could sustain fire for longer. Maybe the whole propellant mixture could be made to allow for induction heating. p.s. before something explodes make sure the magazine has a cover to prevent cookoff of all the ammo at once, since it has to be close to the open end of the barrel. edit: or steal metal storm's idea and use electrical ignition.
The cookoff issue was actually already addressed in the development of the G11, the outdated info has just stuck around similar to outdated info that the railgun is fragile. Textron who developed the CT ammunition seen at the first part of the video also designed a caseless variant during early stages of the LSAT program, it was not pursued but they had no issue with what people typically consider to be the common design problems of caseless ammo.
@@andywuhu6720 yeah, first thought i had too... Ram rods, just push forward, then rearwards, pick catridge from tube mag, retractable ram rod seems a good debug tool
The up-and-down action has been successfully implemented before too on Madsen weapons. The 1888/1896 self loading rifle and the Madsen MG. Forgotten Weapons had some great videos covering them. It doesn't work exactly the same and still requires an ejector, but it could be inspiration for how something like that might work mechanically.
4:33 mn look at the the empty cases flying, imagine there were conventional metal case, i'm sure it would looks like this if you are firing on the moon or an other planet with less gravity :)
As an American I can confidently say I'm a pretty big gun nut and I gotta say this video is such an interesting and informative video I love it and I hope you obtain proper licenses so you can test these interesting ammo types
Caseless sounds really cool conceptually but after watching this laundry list of shortcomings and special considerations, it's easy to see why brass, steel and aluminum dominate the ammo world. Good examination of the topic to be sure.
@@etherealceleste You can sell it provided you didn't build with the intent to sell. You just need to mark the firearm in accordance with 27 CFR 472.92
@E-Tron Yeah I'm aware. BATFE opinion letters change on a whim, and the "safe" advice it to just serialize it. This is the what 80% receiver companies will tell you to do.
I had designed a SPW(Special Purpose Weapon) almost like the gyrojet, but in fact, it would work as a regular gun, but the "case" would be projected with the projectile. It's like a long 9x19mm with propellant and the primer as a single part, and the gun was meant to be an open bolt SMG
Muzzle-loading Gatling gun? I'm imagining a caseless cartridge, pushed down the barrels with automated ram rods. However, having a magazine full of caseless ammo, near the MUZZLE, would be terrifying!
Dont blink when you shoot, trust me it will help and its better to fix it before it becomes a bad habit. I look forward to seeing the future of these new types of ammo, awesome vid.
Solution to the closed-at-one-end barrel problem: fixing a firing pin at the base of the barrel, and each action of the trigger would propel a bullet down the barrel to the rear, igniting the powder (kind of like a mortar) Super efficient and super wonky but it would work
I was thinking something similar. You would push the charging handle forwards, and the trigger pull releases the "bolt" and pushes it back, grabbing a round from a mag and pushing the round to the rear where the firing pin is. Only problem is rifling, the projectile would have to be finned or something, or the barrel and cartridge geometry would be really wonky Another solution is that the round is like a Rocketball, and an electromagnet pulls the round backwards to the firing pin.
Sei molto intelligente Carlo perché UA-cam America/Inghilterra è più vasta di UA-cam Italia e questi video sono di un qualità molto alta e anche un italiano che non conosce l'inglese (non è il mio caso ma ) può capire i concetti che spieghi, continua così .
So to shed weight from ammo, you want to add complexity and weight to the firearm. There's a great phrase that describes this issue, "If it isnt broke, DONT fix it."
I always learn a lot from your channel. You present the information concisely and in a straightforward manner. I really appreciate what you do, thanks!!
Pump-action slamfire with a telescoping barrel. Inner section of barrel strips the cartridge from the magazine, pushes it down inside outer barrel until it hits a fixed firing pin at the bottom. Cartridge is loaded and ejected at the muzzle of the outer barrel and fired at its breech, whilst the breech of the inner barrel moves up and down as the gun cycles. Sort of like some improvised slamfire pipe guns, but turned into a repeating action.
Task and Purpose made a good point that the main goal of lower weight isn't for the soldier, but for logistics. Less weight = less $ in fuel to transport.
This was great. Good to see someone actually look into how caseless worked instead of just repeating fuddlore. I would point out that the heat taken out by the cases is pretty small though.
For military rounds are being made out of different materials in order to lighten the loads of those who have to carry them. But for two main reasons. One more can be carried And two they cannot be recycled by opposing forces
When caseless ammo is mentioned, my mind immediately goes back the the 1850's and the Volcanic pistol. I can't help but think that it's just not a viable option because it's been experimented with for over 160 years without success.
I have had an idea for a Way to shoot caseless ammunition, in which when the ammunition is pushed into the chamber of the gun, the bolt that pushes it in is actually partially hollow, so it surrounds the ammo, and the firing pin is at the back of the cavity in the bolt, so when it fires the recoil of the gun will naturally push the bolt and the firing pin back to reload a new round. A working version of this will probably be more complex than this but I think it gives you an idea of what I’m talking about.
7.62×38mmR for Mosin Nagant M1895 revolvers is cased telescoped ammo, and the construction of the casing and the barrel movement makes MN the only revolver that can be silenced. Plus its XIX century technology
Found your channel after falling into a UA-cam rabbit hole of discussion over the catastrophic failure incident jnvolving Kentucky Ballistics. I really liked your approach in examining/deconstructing what happened when the rifle exploded so I'm checking out your other vids. Keep up the great content. SUBSCRIBED
First thing that comes to mind is the principle used in mortars - the projectile itself acts as a casing - contains and protects the propellant until ignition. Would also benefit from being fin stabilized, as I imagine grooves would complicate loading) Would love to see your project) I'm sure you will get the license you want - It's such a big stepping stone for your creativity, cheers!
Really cool video you even touched on the gyrojet but you forgot about the tround it was originally used in the dardick but also up scaled to .50 and tested by the navy. It was a cool electric fed open chamber weapon. The rounds simply rolled into the “chamber” fired and were pushed out by the next round. The advantage was no horizontal cycling so a higher fire rate. it was a interesting idea but ultimately didn’t really go anywhere either.
Practical polimer cases would open up the gates for 3d printed ammunition, the Achilles heel for 3d printed guns, now that a process for rifling barrels through electro etching has been perfected.
i know you already gave the answer but from my understanding, your challenge would be a muzzleloader. in that case, a grorified "roman candle" firework would be the only solution i can come up with. i think there was a product in that area called metall storm or something. i mean axially stacked caseless amunition rods where you basically muzzle load an entire magazine and then set off individual rounds electronically would be pretty efficient.
I'd argue there was a caseless ammunition weapon project that reached a further point than the G11. The Daisy V/L, it reached production with 23,000 made; there was a brief time when you could have walked into a store and bought one. In fact, it wasn't even considered a firearm so no background check or license, then the ATF happened. You can still find the guns and ammo if you know where to look.
Excellent video. But as an American, I don't know that I"m crazy about any of these designs. Currently, it is very easy for any American to load and reload ammo because of how simple everything is and how durable most brass cases are. From what i can see and from what I can understand, all of these "innovations" would make it much harder on the average citizen while giving only small benefits to the military. Still, your explanation is great and it is a fascinating subject.
The caseless idea could work. Casting the round like before but marginally thinner then applying a coat of more thermally stable compound on the outside. Like a case, but with the idea of the less stable interior's ignition consuming the casing, with the only spent material from the chamber needing to be maybe the primer cap. There was also electronic guns that stored all the rounds of the weapon within the barrel. Some crazy mounted weapons containing hundreds of those tubes firing off thousands of rounds in a mere second layering down an artillery like hail of bullets.
There is a type of ammunition where the entire explosion is kept in the case and the explosion smacks a captive piston, the piston smacks the projectile, the projectile flies out. This has the benefit in that no expanding gas is expelled so it is quieter and clean.
@@Backyard.Ballistics I found an article on the firearm blog (TFB). Called POTD: Silent Piston Cartridge 7.62×42 It shows a good cutaway. Its like a pipebomb with one end allowed to slide.
You forgot about “trounds” that the dardick pistol used. They were a modified version of a polymer cased bullet that we’re triangular to operate in the dardicks odd design.
For the first design you should look up "trounds" essentially what you made but triangular and would load in a revolving mechanism which would eject out the side and then load from a magazine like a gattling mechanism. With caseless you could use electronic firing rather than a conventional primer to eliminate that component from the design. Would love to see you do testing of these but may not be worth getting the paperwork, just find a local fan with the paperwork to help you out
for telescoped polymer, why not make your moving chamber be like a gatling style rotating block, with pistons that are moved by a cam as the block rotates. Those pistons would handle both the extraction and the loading. Possibly the same way as your animation, but with the whole mechanism rotating around in one direction, instead of your design with partial rotation in one direction, stopping for a piston, and then rotating back the other way.
I could see a folded aluminum/alloy cartridge being a good solution for belt fed machine guns that normally use a lot of heavy ammo. They are already heavier and more complex, so you could probably find a way to create "permanent belts" that sadly would have to be sent back, but could be sent back and re filled for re use. Which in a military application is totally plausible I think. They could get more powder behind them for less weight and length, and also a longer barrel in a shorter frame. use a gas system to push out that little nub and eject it, or have it be a little bit more mechanical on a sorta sliding belt link type of thing
Telescoped looks to be the way to go but the feed system is what I keep coming back to. The G11 used a rotating feed mechanism but the one Dardick designed still strikes me as being viable with a certain amount of polishing. The fact that you have a rotating cylinder does create a possibility for a gas leak but having mostly independant loading, firing and extracting stages strikes me as being potentially more reliable than the push through variant. Just one of those idle thoughts that run through my head at night when I'm trying to get to sleep...
Perhaps we need to take a step back first before moving to semi automatic designs. What if you took the case telescoped idea and put it in a revolving cylinder? Perhaps the cylinder itself is disposable and holds several caseless ammo inside like one big case telescoped cartridge but all share the same frame, if that makes sense. It would basically be like a modern day cap and ball revolver, albeit you just use a new cylinder when you want to reload. This wouldn’t have any practical military use sure but would it be a practical option for commercial use as a budget self defence firearm?
Nevr really thought of a non conventional cartridge with the absence of a shell. But it is a very interesting idea and i can see the military trying to save weight. That was always a problem with weapons fully loaded when you carry a pack. For instance the reason many GI's preferred the M1 carbine to the M1 Garand because the carbine weighed 5.5 lbs the empty weight of an M1 Garand was 10.5 lbs. So lighter bullets with a proper lighter carbon fiber gun for instance would be quite a weight loss over steel.
Maybe if you separate the bullets and the propellant entirely and feed them into the barrel separately. If you use a liquid propellant you can use a fuel injector, like in a vehicle, to ensure a precise amount of fuel is added for each shot.
Conventional Polymer cased, telescopic polymer cased, and a steel/brass hybrid cased is currently being tested for the NSGW program. They are now in the development trials for Textron, General Dynamics, and sig sauer. Final production trials are being held next spring to choose a winner. Finger crossed for the Textron bid. Using polymer casing would increase the possibility of using higher pressure rounds in the future, which would normally burst a brass case.
Sounds like a good idea however the issue with that design is way to many moving parts which means way more likely to jam or fail. The smallest imperfection in the casing or a little bit of dirt and it jams
“We don’t fire the round, we fire the whole bullet! That’s 67% more bullet!”
-someone from Portal 2
Cave Johnson i assume
@@ihatethatyoutubedisplaysyo8106 That sounds like something Cave Johnson would say lol.
@@nice8D no, he literally said that
@@ihatethatyoutubedisplaysyo8106 :)
... per bullet!
Please do get the license! I hope it isn't too expensive
Sadly it is quite expensive, especially for certain levels of license.
@@EvelynH-tj1qt Come to Texas, bro, you can have all the weapons you want and fire and modify them in your backyard
@@jeffr3773 I live in the U.S. and while you can't fire them in your backyard I can shoot them anywhere not in a city pretty much.
Well if you have enough land that is
@@EvelynH-tj1qt Depends on how big your yard is. Suburban backyard on a cul-de-sac? Nah probably not a good idea. Bat-fuck nowhere where your closest neighbor is a mile away? Fuck it bring out the 50 bmg.
"We've got to be careful"
*hits it with a hammer*
I subconsciously flinched
Its a bullet extractor. The primer is not impacted
Lol, imagine if there was a Powder Actuated Hammer. Of that design.
@@jatpack3 yeah but it was just funny timing
That takes apart the round and just leaves the primer you have to press out
“Reduces weight of rifle and ammunition” *LOOKS AT FOLDED ROUNDS* This accomplishes neither of these things!
but we folded it in half , so its smaller, therefore it weighs less :D
@@hellsonion514 It still carries the same weight, its folded, not cut.
@@yeahoklol7848 BUT. WE. FOLDED. IT. IN. HALF. SO. IT'S. SMALLER. :|
Is...is this 'Katana' logic? Jesus.
the barrel easily weight more than ammo, itll weight as much as a few mags. if you could shorten it by a few inches without losing accuracy that will allow you to hold even one more mag it will be worth it.
Well it seems there are very good reasons why caseless ammo isn´t more common. Thanks for explaining Carlo.
Kraut space magic was the closest that it ever came to being
It’s actually been addressed in G11’s development and what we commonly hear repeated now are just outdated info. There was a rather recent development too in the form of the caseless variant of the LSAT LMG. It was fairly competent but was not pursued further as CT showed more promise.
Because there is no case for it, once the pros and cons are weighed up.
@@rickoshea8138 solid pun
Once we can figure out more powerful batteries, I think electric weapons like railguns or coilguns will solve the ammo weight issue. I know we are nowhere near that yet, but I look forward to advancing tech.
I hope you get that license! How easy is it build/design firearms legally in Italy? Do the laws vary across regions?
Gun laws are all the same across Italy. I dunno about that license but I'm pretty sure it's shall-issue, it's probably a burocratic mess tho
I think in Italy you need to have a gun license and or a gunsmith license (for producing receivers and such) but I'm no Italian so take my word with a grain of salt
@@notme1998 Dovrà aspettare qualche anno che il questore firmi un documento e nel mentre pagare qualche tassa a caso
It's not much harder than starting up a restaurant or a driving school really, but like any new "company" it requires quite a few expenses and time, so I would only do it if my viewers are interested enough. But apparently they are😉
We are noth a Federal country dude XD laws are the same for all the country u silly
"If this gets enough like ill go get a license to produce my own weapons for your entertainment and criticizm" what a god
Textron has actually already addressed both issues you’ve brought up with CT. It’s actually one of the three entries of the US NGSW program that’s set to conclude around 2021, though likely extended due to current events.
Firstly, because the CT case is polymer, it expands and forms a seal over the chamber and over the chamber to barrel gap, allowing all gas to be funneled down the barrel. This, coupled with the effective heat insulation of the case material, has lead to an increase in bullet performance down range.
Second, Textron’s rifle entry into the NGSW program does feature a linear moving chamber that gets pushed down by a pair of tracks connected to the “bolt” carrier. As the carrier recoils, it pulls the tracks back which are curved downwards after the initial straight lines, forcing the chamber downwards and aligned with the next round in the magazine. As the bolt comes forward, it pushes the next round into the chamber and the first out, ejecting it through the ejection chute and the chamber is allowed to rise up under spring tension after the reload is fully completed and the tracks become straight again.
Andywuhu basically it’s the same as the styer acr action
Zocker 94 yeah kinda
Lassi Kinnunen I’m fairly certain both have been evaluated during LSAT and this is just further reiterations based on the military’s needs. There are quite a few articles done by TFB if you search the LSAT tag that talk about it quite extensively
Personally haven't looked in to or heard about these tests, and while it sounds good, I suspect that in the real world they will become jam-o-matics. Not only would I suspect that it is vulnerable to any problems in large production polymer processes, but ejecting long straight wall cases tends to create problems, and pushing them totally through seems like a recipe for mechanical failures. I look forward to reading the results.
I've seen models of them. They are far more complex than your average military rifle, which is usually a bad thing.
Also we don't know if these issues have been addressed or they just claim to have been. That's why they are being tested c:
Tank shells have a casing that burns up when the shell is shot, so you are left with only the metal cap. This is important since there's not enough space inside the turret to hold a whole bunch of spent casings. Maybe some rifle ammo will go that route
I'm wondering how the pressure curve in that last round would look like, since the powder ignition pattern and gas flow in the chamber would be so different than in conventional ammunition. Great quality content from you, as always. I already subscribed to your channel a long time ago, but I really hope you get way more subscribers. Your really deserve it. Have you considered doing a collaboration video with bigger channels like Forgotten Weapons or C&Rsenal? I would believe your highly detailed and technical approach would go in line with their type of content, and their higher subscriptor numbers would mean good publicity for your channel. Greetings from Argentina!
hey there, thanks for the kind words. I'd love to collaborate with such channels, but I'm afraid they're too big to be bothered doing a collaboration with me. I would really love to though
@@Backyard.Ballistics I would suggest contacting them. Worst case scenario, they don't reply. Keep up the good work, regardless!
@@Backyard.Ballistics contact Bloke on the range or Armorer's Bench, they are much smaller and I believe they are both European channels.
@@oliverpasztor788 another Brit has a video about a "belt-fed lever-action bull-pup" chambered in .44mag modified from a Ruger rifle if I remember correctly.
Oh it worked well with a 3 round burst before the recoil hit the shooter with the g11 and it was more accurate then the standard g3 also you would have 3 single staked magazines with 50 rounds each on the gun the other 2 where spare mags so instead of carrying them have them on the gun already
And it’s just fun to think about that if all the plastic parts from the g11 are gone you just have a giant peace of gears one barrel with a recoil spring on one side of the barrel and on the other the gas piston and the chamber is a rotating wheel with square holes in it and a plunger that pushes the round out of the chamber if there is a potential misfire also the cleaning kit is just in the grip and it’s just a brass brush to clean the chamber from the hold where a round would leave the chamber if it nisfired
By far one of the most interesting and informative gun channels. Criminally underrated.
Idea - Casings that burn, melt, or vaporize from the heat of the propellant, and are vented out of the barrel or an actuating vent instead of a traditional extractor. I assume the casing would be significantly lighter than the normal metal kind, and would still be able to prevent heat transfer like a normal casing does.
This idea was experimented by The Steyr ACR (telescopic plastic cased ammo) and the HK G11 (Completely caseless ammo) . The big problem is that both had Major problems of Propellant Cook-off on both and a problem unique of the Steyr ACR which was fragmented cases that endangered bystanders and the user.
Battleship cannons loaded their propellant in silk bags which burnt up in the explosion. Probably doesn't scale down well though.
@@nerd1000ify British tanks use charge bags as well.
Imagine reloading your magazine under fire in a fox hole and everyone is yelling at you to hurry up meanwhile every 3rd round of careless ammo you insert breaks.......
That is why the G11's ammo came in plastic cases not unlike Candy Pez dispensers.
You stuck them on the end of a G11 mag and it fed them in when you pushed on the back of the case of ammo.
Don't forget the "Trounds" of the Dardick open chamber system..
Rounds that are so old the damn plastic made to Hold the bullets and powder Is unstable now.
@@gagejohnathan9641 If only the technology existed to reproduce shapes and powder...
@@MichaelCorryFilms and I probably should've added this. But the 3d printed trounds aren't exactly Perfect either, they're just adaptors to Normal rounds.
@@gagejohnathan9641 Yeah, I've seen the issues you are talking about with the plastics cracking, etc. and an adapter really isn't the point. I do think it would interesting to experiment with. There were apparently aluminum casings made and I wonder if some of the infused 3d plastics may work.
"We have a serious plastic problem in the world!"
- makes plastic bullet casings -
@Ra Mo lol I'm pretty sure we do stuff like lead free ammo because we're a part of NATO. I sincerely doubt that plastic casings would be allowed. But who knows maybe I'm wrong.
@Ra Mo there are a lot of us who are bad people but there are a lot of us who aren't.
Nothing like ending our existence 30 rounds at a time.
@Ra Mo China dumps more plastic and causes more pollution than all of the other leading countries combined
@@anonymuos1592 India too
I for one would love to see you get a gunsmithing license to try out these weird designs. Maybe consider taking an inspiration from Halo's SMG since iirc it uses square caseless ammo
Many sci-fi weapons say they use "caseless ammo", but given the fact an art director/3D designer doesn't necessarily have to be a mechanical engineer or a gunsmith I doubt most actually work.
You didn't called him Gun Jesus : (
I must do penance now...
@@Backyard.Ballistics for penance you must fire 250 rounds from a zip 22
@@thomastruant8837 eternal damnation
@@thomastruant8837 now thats crual!!!
@@SouseMouse I'd say it's about a half damnation
Another great video ! I hope this channel gets the recognition it deserves as I don't know of many more firearms channels that present the topic in such interesting and intelligent ways !
Ahhhh. My first Italian UA-camr. I always get Dutch ones.
For the longest time I was searching for videos on caseless ammo. Thanks for finally featuring them.
Your channel is criminally underrated.
I still feel this channel is incredibly underrated. Get that license. I look forward to seeing what comes next! Till then I will continue recommending this channel to people.
I was thinking about longer bullet which is the case: it's hollow, filled with powder and sealed by the primer.
The high capacity Volcanic pistol of the late 19th century used the hollow bullet as the powder case. It was underpowered - there isn't enough room inside the bullet if you're using black powder. I think the idea could be tried again with smokeless - since smokeless powder has about three times the energy density of black powder. A fast powder like Bullseye would make the most sense. Even so, a modern version would not be a magnum. Primerless, electric ignition has been successfully done, there used to be an electrically ignited muzzle loader on the market.
A modern, electrically primed version of Volcanic pistol could work, the ammo could save a lot of weight.
@@deandeann1541 Calling the volcanic underpowered is a bit like calling the universe big. It's true, but not a powerful enough descriptor. Modern .22 LR has about twice the power of the original Volcanic repeater. Smokeless powder can reach maximum chamber pressures about three times as high as black powder but that doesn't mean the bullet has three times as much energy on target. Furthermore, the limitations of the design on the Volcanic pistol and ammunition mean much lower chamber pressures are safe to use. At best you're probably looking at a 30% increase in muzzle energy but that's pretty optimistic and it's still not even close to .22 LR.
And to compete with modern pistols it has to be semi-automatic or at least double action like a revolver. It sounds possible to make one that is reliable but it would be more expensive to produce. Especially if it's electronically fired (Which I've seen done before but it still required a primer to reliably ignite the gunpowder and it was a dismal failure commercially.)
It sounds like a cool novelty project but I don't think it's in any way practical to have a really expensive pistol that's less powerful than .22 LR, with ammunition that is actually heavier than .22 LR, and is potentially unreliable. The advantage for such a handgun is that you wouldn't be leaving a little brass case I guess.
Russians did that with the VAG-72/73.
Basically is was like the Gyrojet but the primer was made to disintegrate releasing all the gasses quickly rather than over time.
If the weight to propellant ratio of the rocket ball was fixed. Perhaps by using soild copper or aluminum bullets that can still engauge the rifling, the velocity jump should bring it on par with say a 9mm.
A blow forward design could be used to rechamber the rifle, but then you run into the problem of making the rifle heavier than the ammo weight saved
With a caseless design, one wonders about the feasibility of electrically fired ammo, doing away with primers as well...
It's impossible to find primers in usa right now🤷♂️
And reducing cost, that would be nice. Interesting as always.
your explanation about CT ammo makes textron's bid in the NGSW program make much more sense, I didn't know how much more fitting that design was to plastic cased cartridges. thank you!
7:24 "Kraut Space Magic" :D
Chillout Yankee. WWII is long gone no need for slurs
@@almerindaromeira8352 What. Who cares?
@@almerindaromeira8352 it's a direct quote of Ians title for the G11 video
I just found this channel and it’s exactly what I’ve been looking for. I don’t want to watch people shoot huge guns at wacky things over and over again. I just want to learn about the guns and such. Very interesting channel. And I hope you get your license!
If you actually end up getting a manufacture license, go with the up-down as in your model and make it a gas-action Toggel lock.........
Yes you can all hit me, but hey, rule of cool
You are one clever-minded, inventive little dude. You know that? I do appreciate the engineering style of your presentation.
Did you get your license yet?
One of the more interesting ideas I saw for a case-less round can be compared to a naval gun. It used a compressed pellet of powder and an interesting action to first feed and chamber the bullet, then seat the pellet and close the breech. Electronically fired and single shot, but it worked.
i would love to see you build a gun with non conventional ammo mate!
Regardless of how unsuccesful it was, the caseless ammo G11 is a sexy machine and the concept is awsome.
Here's an idea for a cartridge for a "muzzle loader" that could fire at speeds comparable to a breech loader.
The cartridge and the barrel are one and the same. The cartridge is extended and the bullet is seated deeply in it so the cartridge can act as the barrel. It would lock into some base with a trigger in it to fire the round. After that you simply pull the whole cartridge out, discard it, and insert a new one.
Let's say the base that the cartridge is attached to has a steel tube to support the cartridge where the pressures are the highest. Perhaps it also has some locking lugs on it so you could twist it into place.
The cartridges would be fairly heavy and expensive but it fills all the criteria. It is a self contained cartridge that is inserted into the "muzzle" of a tube that is permanently sealed on one end (except for maybe a small hole for the ignition source to go through if the cartridge lacks a primer) but can be reloaded at the speed of a single shot breach loader.
This idea would probably work best for pistols where the pressures are lower and the barrel lengths are shorter. That would save on weight through both a thinner cartridge and a shorter cartridge.
Edit: fixed quotation marks
Metal Storm Limited's MAUL project has a very similar intent to this. The rounds are stacked in the barrel, with each layer of propellant being electronically activated by the pull of the trigger. They're projects are worth a read.
@@suprtroopr1028 I heard about it. It is not unlike a modern version of the Chamber's Flintlock Machine Gun. It was invented in the 1780s and used in the war of 1812 on the USS Constitute. It could fire 120 rounds a minute for about 2 minutes. So really when anyone says "they never could have predicted automatic weapons" they are wrong, they were well aware of the possibility. Especially the Founding Fathers of America as it was shown to them by the inventor.
No surviving documents of its efficacy on the USS Constitution are known to exist.
@@flightlesschicken7769 it's a shame when hardware like that vanishes to time
@@suprtroopr1028 I believe there are exactly two surviving examples of it. There is a Forgotten Weapons episode on them. I would recommend it
I would build the catrige out of an Material that get fully burned by Shooting.
Like cellulose or something.
After each shot, the ammunition get fully burned up.
I know there are some problems too, but its a way to make a stable catrige and protect the powder a little from heating.
Another weird one would be the Daisy caseless ammo from the 60s (I think). It was made and sold commercially, with no military attempts that I am aware of.
They had to stop selling it because it reclassified as a firearm, right?
@@flightlesschicken7769 yup, that is my understanding as well. Daisy wasnt licensed as a firearms manufacturer. The "VL" ammunition looks like a green feed pellet stuck on the back of a 22 bullet. There is some for sale locally right now.... wonder it it works still :p
For your proposed closed breach weapon you could stack caseless ammunition similar to the multiprojectile civil war era weapons. Theoretically you could stack as many shots in the barrel as you have room and touch off each charge in sequence. Alternatively there was one design where the center of each projectile had a small passage which allowed each round to be automatically lit by the one ahead of it. You could have a 50 shot automatic with no way to stop it :p
I think you gave us a big clue to a potential solution of the challenge with the segment on cookoff. Use a ramrod to strip off a caseless round from a magazine ahead of the open end of the barrel and push it to the closed end. Remove the ramrod. Use a method of rapidly heating the closed end of the barrel above cookoff temperature. Magnetic induction could be used, or just conduct heat into the barrel by contacting it with an already heated block of metal. After firing, remove the heat source and rapidly cool the barrel some way (contact with a heatsink block) to prevent immediate cookoff of the next round inserted with the ramrod. If the barrel remained strong enough to withstand ignition pressures while also being made from a material that is less susceptible to magnetic induction of heat, a small heatable "primer" element could be inserted into the rear of each caseless round instead. That means you don't have to heat the barrel directly and could sustain fire for longer. Maybe the whole propellant mixture could be made to allow for induction heating.
p.s. before something explodes make sure the magazine has a cover to prevent cookoff of all the ammo at once, since it has to be close to the open end of the barrel.
edit: or steal metal storm's idea and use electrical ignition.
The cookoff issue was actually already addressed in the development of the G11, the outdated info has just stuck around similar to outdated info that the railgun is fragile. Textron who developed the CT ammunition seen at the first part of the video also designed a caseless variant during early stages of the LSAT program, it was not pursued but they had no issue with what people typically consider to be the common design problems of caseless ammo.
@@andywuhu6720 The above comment was supposed to be a reply to the challenge at the end of the video.
D W oops, sorry. Thought you were talking about caseless
@@andywuhu6720 yeah, first thought i had too... Ram rods, just push forward, then rearwards, pick catridge from tube mag, retractable ram rod seems a good debug tool
The up-and-down action has been successfully implemented before too on Madsen weapons. The 1888/1896 self loading rifle and the Madsen MG. Forgotten Weapons had some great videos covering them. It doesn't work exactly the same and still requires an ejector, but it could be inspiration for how something like that might work mechanically.
I wanna know what the magazine’s for folded cartridges would look like
Good presentation ... well presented ... much to consider here.
4:33 mn look at the the empty cases flying, imagine there were conventional metal case, i'm sure it would looks like this if you are firing on the moon or an other planet with less gravity :)
If there was less gravity recoil would be greater
@@abyssstrider2547 sure maybe in off to quickly raise him , with a burst i think
@@abyssstrider2547 Yes im pretty sure with the moon gravity with only one burst the shooter would be raised up
As an American I can confidently say I'm a pretty big gun nut and I gotta say this video is such an interesting and informative video I love it and I hope you obtain proper licenses so you can test these interesting ammo types
Can't wait for warzones to be filled with plastic instead of metals
Caseless sounds really cool conceptually but after watching this laundry list of shortcomings and special considerations, it's easy to see why brass, steel and aluminum dominate the ammo world. Good examination of the topic to be sure.
me, an american: "what do you mean, you need a license to make a gun!?"
Lol Americans still need a license to make a firearm
@@kaleberg1528 Nope. (as long as it is never traded/sold and only for yourself individually)
@@etherealceleste You can sell it provided you didn't build with the intent to sell. You just need to mark the firearm in accordance with 27 CFR 472.92
@E-Tron Yeah I'm aware. BATFE opinion letters change on a whim, and the "safe" advice it to just serialize it. This is the what 80% receiver companies will tell you to do.
I had designed a SPW(Special Purpose Weapon) almost like the gyrojet, but in fact, it would work as a regular gun, but the "case" would be projected with the projectile.
It's like a long 9x19mm with propellant and the primer as a single part, and the gun was meant to be an open bolt SMG
This makes me think of the the Nagant revolver.
I just sold one a few weeks ago........I could never find ammo for it.
Muzzle-loading Gatling gun? I'm imagining a caseless cartridge, pushed down the barrels with automated ram rods. However, having a magazine full of caseless ammo, near the MUZZLE, would be terrifying!
An even more crazy idea - we use the BARREL as the PROJECTILE... 🤣
I love this channel
Wow. Incredible. Exactly what I was looking for, thank you.
Please, study the history of the Daisy VL system.
I'm so happy UA-cam brought me to you. This is my third video in a row and I definitely subscribed. Loooove the accent. All the best
where can i send design ideas for unorthodox cartridges? i call my the 'fat reverse rim fire'. i have made a simple drawing i would like to send
You can of course send it to backyardballisticsco@gmail.com
Dont blink when you shoot, trust me it will help and its better to fix it before it becomes a bad habit. I look forward to seeing the future of these new types of ammo, awesome vid.
Are you italian?
He is
PLEASE BUILD THESE it would be such an interesting video
Solution to the closed-at-one-end barrel problem: fixing a firing pin at the base of the barrel, and each action of the trigger would propel a bullet down the barrel to the rear, igniting the powder (kind of like a mortar) Super efficient and super wonky but it would work
I was thinking something similar. You would push the charging handle forwards, and the trigger pull releases the "bolt" and pushes it back, grabbing a round from a mag and pushing the round to the rear where the firing pin is. Only problem is rifling, the projectile would have to be finned or something, or the barrel and cartridge geometry would be really wonky Another solution is that the round is like a Rocketball, and an electromagnet pulls the round backwards to the firing pin.
you are quite close to the solution, but mine didn't need any fancy mechanics at all...
Sei molto intelligente Carlo perché UA-cam America/Inghilterra è più vasta di UA-cam Italia e questi video sono di un qualità molto alta e anche un italiano che non conosce l'inglese (non è il mio caso ma ) può capire i concetti che spieghi, continua così .
So to shed weight from ammo, you want to add complexity and weight to the firearm. There's a great phrase that describes this issue, "If it isnt broke, DONT fix it."
I always learn a lot from your channel. You present the information concisely and in a straightforward manner. I really appreciate what you do, thanks!!
Pump-action slamfire with a telescoping barrel. Inner section of barrel strips the cartridge from the magazine, pushes it down inside outer barrel until it hits a fixed firing pin at the bottom. Cartridge is loaded and ejected at the muzzle of the outer barrel and fired at its breech, whilst the breech of the inner barrel moves up and down as the gun cycles. Sort of like some improvised slamfire pipe guns, but turned into a repeating action.
Ah yes, G11, the Kraut Space Magic.
Ahhh the 'G11- Kraut Spacemagic Video' ^^ good crossreference. that alone was worth a like
Task and Purpose made a good point that the main goal of lower weight isn't for the soldier, but for logistics. Less weight = less $ in fuel to transport.
This was great. Good to see someone actually look into how caseless worked instead of just repeating fuddlore.
I would point out that the heat taken out by the cases is pretty small though.
What a great video.
So much information. You are very knowledgeable, and you conveyed that information in an eloquent, easy-to-understand way.
For military rounds are being made out of different materials in order to lighten the loads of those who have to carry them.
But for two main reasons.
One more can be carried
And two they cannot be recycled by opposing forces
When caseless ammo is mentioned, my mind immediately goes back the the 1850's and the Volcanic pistol. I can't help but think that it's just not a viable option because it's been experimented with for over 160 years without success.
I have had an idea for a Way to shoot caseless ammunition, in which when the ammunition is pushed into the chamber of the gun, the bolt that pushes it in is actually partially hollow, so it surrounds the ammo, and the firing pin is at the back of the cavity in the bolt, so when it fires the recoil of the gun will naturally push the bolt and the firing pin back to reload a new round. A working version of this will probably be more complex than this but I think it gives you an idea of what I’m talking about.
I liked and sub'd as soon as you mentioned the licensing. I would enjoy watching this a lot.
US Army: Why can’t you just be normal?!
AAI, HK and Colt: _screams in CTA, Caseless and Duplex_
7.62×38mmR for Mosin Nagant M1895 revolvers is cased telescoped ammo, and the construction of the casing and the barrel movement makes MN the only revolver that can be silenced. Plus its XIX century technology
Found your channel after falling into a UA-cam rabbit hole of discussion over the catastrophic failure incident jnvolving Kentucky Ballistics. I really liked your approach in examining/deconstructing what happened when the rifle exploded so I'm checking out your other vids. Keep up the great content. SUBSCRIBED
First thing that comes to mind is the principle used in mortars - the projectile itself acts as a casing - contains and protects the propellant until ignition. Would also benefit from being fin stabilized, as I imagine grooves would complicate loading)
Would love to see your project) I'm sure you will get the license you want - It's such a big stepping stone for your creativity, cheers!
Really cool video you even touched on the gyrojet but you forgot about the tround it was originally used in the dardick but also up scaled to .50 and tested by the navy. It was a cool electric fed open chamber weapon. The rounds simply rolled into the “chamber” fired and were pushed out by the next round. The advantage was no horizontal cycling so a higher fire rate. it was a interesting idea but ultimately didn’t really go anywhere either.
Practical polimer cases would open up the gates for 3d printed ammunition, the Achilles heel for 3d printed guns, now that a process for rifling barrels through electro etching has been perfected.
i know you already gave the answer but from my understanding, your challenge would be a muzzleloader. in that case, a grorified "roman candle" firework would be the only solution i can come up with. i think there was a product in that area called metall storm or something.
i mean axially stacked caseless amunition rods where you basically muzzle load an entire magazine and then set off individual rounds electronically would be pretty efficient.
It's known as "superimposed loads" and was done historically, albeit not with a long paper cartridge.
Eh? Where did he give the answer?
I didn't really :-P
RIP JStark... can't ignore the signal
I'd argue there was a caseless ammunition weapon project that reached a further point than the G11. The Daisy V/L, it reached production with 23,000 made; there was a brief time when you could have walked into a store and bought one. In fact, it wasn't even considered a firearm so no background check or license, then the ATF happened. You can still find the guns and ammo if you know where to look.
Excellent video. But as an American, I don't know that I"m crazy about any of these designs. Currently, it is very easy for any American to load and reload ammo because of how simple everything is and how durable most brass cases are. From what i can see and from what I can understand, all of these "innovations" would make it much harder on the average citizen while giving only small benefits to the military.
Still, your explanation is great and it is a fascinating subject.
So happy to see your channel continue to grow, keep it up. Your content holds my attention every time
The caseless idea could work. Casting the round like before but marginally thinner then applying a coat of more thermally stable compound on the outside. Like a case, but with the idea of the less stable interior's ignition consuming the casing, with the only spent material from the chamber needing to be maybe the primer cap. There was also electronic guns that stored all the rounds of the weapon within the barrel. Some crazy mounted weapons containing hundreds of those tubes firing off thousands of rounds in a mere second layering down an artillery like hail of bullets.
There is a type of ammunition where the entire explosion is kept in the case and the explosion smacks a captive piston, the piston smacks the projectile, the projectile flies out. This has the benefit in that no expanding gas is expelled so it is quieter and clean.
I will try to replicate that in the future ;)
Sounds like Simunitions, but they’re deliberately low velocity, since they’re used for force on force training.
@@Backyard.Ballistics I found an article on the firearm blog (TFB). Called POTD: Silent Piston Cartridge 7.62×42
It shows a good cutaway. Its like a pipebomb with one end allowed to slide.
@@509Gman I found the reference!
POTD: Silent Piston Cartridge 7.62×42
There is an article on the firearm blog (tfb).
You forgot about “trounds” that the dardick pistol used. They were a modified version of a polymer cased bullet that we’re triangular to operate in the dardicks odd design.
I liked the video Ian made on that pistol and i must say that ammo might have been a success if the casing was brass or steel instead of polymer.
For the first design you should look up "trounds" essentially what you made but triangular and would load in a revolving mechanism which would eject out the side and then load from a magazine like a gattling mechanism.
With caseless you could use electronic firing rather than a conventional primer to eliminate that component from the design.
Would love to see you do testing of these but may not be worth getting the paperwork, just find a local fan with the paperwork to help you out
for telescoped polymer, why not make your moving chamber be like a gatling style rotating block, with pistons that are moved by a cam as the block rotates. Those pistons would handle both the extraction and the loading. Possibly the same way as your animation, but with the whole mechanism rotating around in one direction, instead of your design with partial rotation in one direction, stopping for a piston, and then rotating back the other way.
I could see a folded aluminum/alloy cartridge being a good solution for belt fed machine guns that normally use a lot of heavy ammo. They are already heavier and more complex, so you could probably find a way to create "permanent belts" that sadly would have to be sent back, but could be sent back and re filled for re use. Which in a military application is totally plausible I think. They could get more powder behind them for less weight and length, and also a longer barrel in a shorter frame. use a gas system to push out that little nub and eject it, or have it be a little bit more mechanical on a sorta sliding belt link type of thing
Telescoped looks to be the way to go but the feed system is what I keep coming back to. The G11 used a rotating feed mechanism but the one Dardick designed still strikes me as being viable with a certain amount of polishing. The fact that you have a rotating cylinder does create a possibility for a gas leak but having mostly independant loading, firing and extracting stages strikes me as being potentially more reliable than the push through variant.
Just one of those idle thoughts that run through my head at night when I'm trying to get to sleep...
I'm glad you showed the excuse for ammunition PCP
Perhaps we need to take a step back first before moving to semi automatic designs. What if you took the case telescoped idea and put it in a revolving cylinder? Perhaps the cylinder itself is disposable and holds several caseless ammo inside like one big case telescoped cartridge but all share the same frame, if that makes sense. It would basically be like a modern day cap and ball revolver, albeit you just use a new cylinder when you want to reload.
This wouldn’t have any practical military use sure but would it be a practical option for commercial use as a budget self defence firearm?
"It would break apart if mishandled"
*Proceeds to try and break it for a long time*
If you can break it with your fingers (even if it does require some effort) it is almost guaranteed to break frequently in any real world scenarios.
Nevr really thought of a non conventional cartridge with the absence of a shell. But it is a very interesting idea and i can see the military trying to save weight. That was always a problem with weapons fully loaded when you carry a pack. For instance the reason many GI's preferred the M1 carbine to the M1 Garand because the carbine weighed 5.5 lbs the empty weight of an M1 Garand was 10.5 lbs. So lighter bullets with a proper lighter carbon fiber gun for instance would be quite a weight loss over steel.
don't forget stacked ammunition like the Metalstorm! its technically just caseless, but its multiple projectiles in one "round"
Would love to see this guy get a licence and see what stuff he comes up with
Maybe if you separate the bullets and the propellant entirely and feed them into the barrel separately. If you use a liquid propellant you can use a fuel injector, like in a vehicle, to ensure a precise amount of fuel is added for each shot.
Conventional Polymer cased, telescopic polymer cased, and a steel/brass hybrid cased is currently being tested for the NSGW program. They are now in the development trials for Textron, General Dynamics, and sig sauer. Final production trials are being held next spring to choose a winner.
Finger crossed for the Textron bid. Using polymer casing would increase the possibility of using higher pressure rounds in the future, which would normally burst a brass case.
Sounds like a good idea however the issue with that design is way to many moving parts which means way more likely to jam or fail. The smallest imperfection in the casing or a little bit of dirt and it jams
Wonderful video. As a firearms enthusiast I love this type of research.