Therapy & Theology: Commonly Debated and Misunderstood Bible Verses About Women
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- Опубліковано 2 лис 2022
- Welcome to a new series of Therapy & Theology: "Let's Stop Avoiding This Conversation: 6 Topics Women Have Big Questions About."
Join Lysa TerKeurst; her licensed professional counselor, Jim Cress; and Proverbs 31 Ministries' Director of Theological Research, Dr. Joel Muddamalle, for a conversation about therapy and theology.
In Episode 3, we focus on commonly debated and often misunderstood verses in the Bible that seem to silence women.
If you missed Episode 2, click here to watch now: • Therapy & Theology: Th...
Related Resources:
Want more wisdom as you navigate hard relationship dynamics? Find practical next steps, powerful scriptures and timely guidance on how to set realistic, healthy boundaries in Lysa TerKeurst's new book, Good Boundaries and Goodbyes. In the pages of this book, Lysa's personal counselor, Jim Cress, also provides therapeutic insight surrounding the topic of boundaries, helping you confidently apply what you read. Order here: www.p31bookstore.com/collecti...
Ready to take a personal next step in finding a Christian counselor? The American Association of Christian Counselors is a great place to find the right fit for you and your circumstances.
Has the "Therapy & Theology" podcast helped you personally gain a fresh, biblical perspective for what you’re facing? Tell us about it by commenting below.
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"I don't understand why the anatomy of my body would dictate the value of my words." 🔥🔥🔥Thank you for tackling this difficult issue. YES.
What if the Samaritan woman had been silenced?!! Whew, so powerful!!!
Thank you for watching, friend!
The Samaritan woman came before the church … just like the thieves on the cross - Jesus has the authority to see one in paradise but the Bible has certain conditions such as … baptism…is baptism necessary? What if someone gives their life to Christ on their death bed - I don’t know the answer to that because God is the authority .. but for the rest of us .. baptism as a gesture of what Christ went through as in the death, burial and resurrection ..rising to anew… a cleansing, off with the old.
Lisa, your communication style and knowledge has been so healing for me, that I could not imagine a world where you were silenced. I thank the Lord for you because you go into scripture so deeply and honestly that it has been so helpful to me and countless other folks who need Jesus. I know you don’t walk on water, but you certainly point to the one who does!!! ❤🙌🏼🙌🏼🙌🏼🙌🏼♥️ I am in debt to you for your transparency and integrity.
Thank you for watching, friend!
@@OfficialProverbs31Ministries no interacting?
So helpful… “have you considered this?” “with a posture of humility”
Thank you for watching, friends!
Thank you so much for speaking up for women. The silencing of women in abuse, especially by religious leaders, needs to stop. When I was in an abusive relationship that was horribly destructive to my mental, physical, and spiritual health, I reached out to my pastor, and was told that it was God’s will that I stay in that relationship, because God does not like divorce. I suffered almost 2 years of additional abuse after that conversation, because I was fearful of leaving and upsetting God.
Praying for you, friend!
Spiritual abuse of so many leaders that I reached out to. I am a prophetic Bible teacher and apologist of the faith through experiences that God landed me in and I have Never been set apart as a Leader by a church. Yet because of my clear understanding of the Word when I was faced with getting help from Pastors for abuse in my home they all landed it on me as having “talked too much”. In other words I deserved the abuse.
If you are having difficulty getting through this I recommend joining Leslie Vernicks Conquer group opening in April. Bless you. ❤
I stayed 20 years believing for a miracle. The Miracle was God cut the marraige facade off. Yes the beginning was full of religious oppression and I still get family saying forgive and forgey. Forgive whay? Still lies and I dare not say or I'm not Christian. Your talks are the closest to understanding some of my experience in the church and family, now grown children who SHIELD their dad and eat his lies up like candy. I foynd Peace in Christ long ago, but circumstances prevail. 😊
@@shelleyd9910I'm so sorry you went through that after trying to reach out for help 😞.
I've been married to narcissis for 23 years. It's got to every abuse the last 10years 😢.
I'm not good either I've done my wrongs. But to be tormented along with the kids is going too far. I have to stay because I have no where to go and want to live with my babies. 3 adults and 3 minors. I always live in fear 😢.
But I know the Lord has a plan 🙏.
Wanted to encourage others to go check out Leslie as well. I've read her book on Destructive Marriage and learned so much in such a compassionate way.
I too recommend to get in her new group too, it starts May 1st go now!
It will be a charge of I believe 30bucks a month. Which I'm not even sure I can get because husband has all he money. But she has so many other good resources and podcast and free talks. So check her out even if you can't get into the group. God bless 🙏
Excellent conversation. Joel’s insights were so helpful for me in thinking about the context of Timothy. How he and Lysa connected how Jesus and Paul, treated women and encouraged their communication and participation in ministry really connected the dots for me and encouraged me.
I am so glad you teach! I have two of your Bible studies and your podcasts help me with my healing journey and loving others more! You are incredibly talented and used by Jesus! 1 Corinthians 13 🫶🏾
Well put by all
My father died. We were in that fighting the clock to get things done as the clock ticked and were in grief. My sister in law was good friends with a woman pastor. She said that her friend would be willing to do the funeral. I came from a background where women were not allowed to pastor but this was not the place to have that conversation. The funeral service was of such Bible grounding and yet so about my Dad that I thought it should be watched by people going into ministry. A couple of days later I went to work at my Christian nonprofit organization. I was still absolutely racked with grief because I had gone back too soon. My boss is a pastor. In my absolute grief of losing my Dad he let me have it for allowing a woman to preach the service. I told him the decision was made by the family and couldn’t without causing major problems as we prepared for Dads funeral. He screamed at me and told me I should have made an issue of it and insisted that a man preach the funeral service.
It is one thing to hold a position and another to be so judgmental about it that we become emotional abusers.
I've been studying this topic on and off for Years because I have felt a strong calling on my life to teach God's word since I was really young. I have story upon story where it was being seen by everyone except in my church where that was a big no no. I lived so surpressed and stifled and CONFUSED about why I was so intrinsically convinced that I had this in me, but it was wrong. I asked God to take it away and in the last 5 years finally accepted that I couldn't shake it and began to listen to the side of the conversation where women maybe don't need to remain on the sidelines as an overarching rule or principle for all people in all times.
You've presented all the things I've discovered in looking into the context in such a simplified and beautiful way!! Thank you for doing this.
Thank you for watching, Michelle! We're glad this video was helpful to you.
You can do any number of teaching roles. One caution: it is wrong to ignore historical context, but it is equally wrong to believe that everything in the Bible only applies to that historical context. The only Scriptural role that is explicitly limited to men is the role of elder. And those are still Scripture and not applicable only to the culture and context of the day, but were rules for how churches are to be organized. But merely teaching God’s word, becoming a theologian, or similar roles are not at all restricted. If you take on the role of both an elder and a teacher, that would likely not be in line with Scripture, but having a teaching ministry in general would not be.
Mike Winger has several videos on this topic, very documented and respectful. Worth watching!
Thank you for boldly taking the time to address these scriptures. I think all married couples as well as sisters in Christ should sit down and watch this. We need to learn how to navigate through church politics together. Humble conversations are the best.
Thank you for watching, friend
WOW! What if Deborah had been silenced!!!
Thank you for taking this subject on!
I have been struggling with this question for a long time. And I’ve felt the way that she does but I was so afraid of being disobedient to God. I love the expertise and fair dialogue in so much love and honor to God’s whole word.
Thank you for watching, friend!
GOD DOES NOT REQUIRE FEAR :) from us! If your fearing THAT IS NOT GOD!
Beautifully said. The fruit of your ministry says it all to me. You have blessed me greatly with your teachings. I genuinely love the three of you. God bless yaz
We're glad you're here!
I so appreciate Jim Cress confessing his past. I listened intently to his words before but now my confidence in his words has grown even more.
🥀My Soul Finds Rest In God Alone;
My Salvation Comes From Him.
He Is My Rock And My Salvation;
He Is My Fortress, I Will Never
Be Shaken. 🙏 ~Psalm 62:1-2~ ❤️
🥀 Without Faith It Is Impossible To Please God. 🙏 ~Hebrews 11-6~ ❤️
I really enjoyed this and listening to everyone's input and perspective. I agree that these verses get completely taken out of context.
I will share this with my husband one day. I will pray about it because we have heated debates about some of these verses and I do not agree with all he says. I find confidence that I am ok with not agreeing with him.
I think he can learn from this and like you all mentioned, this is not the stop of this conversation. We all need to do our research and have a teachable spirit.
Thank you.
Blessings to each of you. 🙏
Thank you for watching, friend. We're glad this video was helpful to you.
This talk and all of your explanations and sharing brought so much light for me . Lisa’s statement at the end brought me to tears . I may have a lot to share that is valuable, but am silenced constantly and am afraid to share . To even think God would want me to speak up is so moving to hear . 😭🙏
I love this conversation, I’ve had a few women challenge me about my calling. I love all of your heart posture to have these important conversations.
Wow…this was such a needed conclusion to the part 1-I felt like there was so much unfinished business…what Lisa said about Jesus’ character being the final filter on the value of women. May God’s will be done on earth as it is in heaven and will be someday!
Thank you for watching, friend.
The Jezebel spirit must have been alive and well at the temple of Artemis, and who else was enabling those women? The men? Oh no, we will be precious when including them. Just leave the blame with the women, they are an easy scapegoat. Lay all the sin at their feet
"We will know them by their fruits" love, not, peace, patience, kindness, goodness," and last but not at all in the least, " SELF CONTROL" do you hear that, you who say women are to remain silent? Do you like hiding behind the apron strings of your mother and your wife?
To be clear, discussions about what roles women are allowed to perform in the Church has NEVER had anything to do with the value of women. Jesus serves a different role than the Father and the Spirit serve. Does that make Jesus less valuable than the Father or the Spirit? Of course not. So, please don’t read “value” into Scripture when looking into what Scripture teaches about roles. Just because the Bible restricts the specific role of elder to men doesn’t imply or mean women are any less valuable or critical members of the Church as a whole. Note that not even Jesus assigned women to the role of Apostle, either. There are mistakes to be made on both sides when approaching this complicated issue, but the biggest mistake is to start off by thinking that any such restrictions on roles devalues women in any way. That simply is not true.
I agree with you that we can sometimes be both right. We must listen to God and your voice has meant a lot in my life so thank you for being obedient to God.
Than you for watching, friend!
How can 2 things, that contradict one another, be right? God doesn't ever contradict himself - so that would be impossible in this case...
Yes, I don’t agree that it is possible for mutually exclusive ideas to ever “both be right.” That is post-modern, anti-truth nonsense. However, both may be wrong, and so both sides need to approach Scripture with humility and an openness to being proven to be wrong from Scripture itself. And in my experience, even with supposedly “unsolvable” issues debated for centuries, in reality the Bible makes it clear which side is actually best supported by Scripture.
These podcasts are changing my life. Thank you, Lysa, Dr. Joel, and Jim! You are a blessing.
Thank you for watching, Sheila!
@@OfficialProverbs31Ministries I know you are busy but a robot 🤖 could answer these for you!
Thank you so much for shining a light on this book in the bible. I was curious as to why Paul wrote it and you unraveled it so beautifully here.
I too had an encounter with our Lord Jesus Christ after a near death accident and that forever changed my life for which I have such a depth of gratitude that God gave me a second chance at life. Since the accident, He has lead me on a wonderful journey of learning, wonder, joy, appreciation, love and much more.
I thank you all and God Bless you and I pray more people come to knowing our Lord Jesus Christ, our savior.
Thank you for watching, JoJo!
So glad you have been obedient to God and let your gift be used by him. Your teaching and personal testimony has been such a blessing to me.
Thank you for watching, Tracy!
Thank you Lisa and team. My faith in Jesus has grown so much because of several incredibly female pastors and Bible scholars. A fantastic book to consider is The Making of Biblical Womanhood by scholar, Dr. Beth Allison Barr.
Wow ! How necessary was this video for me. Gods time is perfect! Thank you Lysa, in this short time I’ve been listening you your teachings, God is making a healing ❤️🩹 process in my heart. Just waiting a few more days to get your book in Spanish.
This series is really phenomenal. I so appreciate the questions discussed. I also am grateful for the specific expertise brought to the table, each bringing their insights for examination and clarification. I am learning a lot. Praise the Lord!
Thanks for watching, friend!
Wow, ❤ Thank you so much for such an informative and encouraging session/chat! I feel like I sat down with a coffee and my Bible with friends. This is incredibly helpful and eye opening. I’ve personally held back a lot, ,mainly because I was confused about the context of many scriptures . Thank You for your honesty and gentleness too. I love how you demonstrate to us how to have an open dialogue regarding sensitive issues in a loving and respectful manner! I really needed to hear this. Now I can apply it. 😊❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤
Thank you for watching, Trish!
“I don’t understand why the anatomy of my body should dictate the.value of my words.” Bingo Lysa!. I spent most of the early part of covid seeking answers to this as well. An.understanding of Artemis worship really helps to sort out that Adam first, then Eve verse because you realise the culture it was written in. “Adam” or “humanity” was not the name given to man but the collective word. And God did not breathe into the woman separately, her life was within Adam. Artemis worship flipped that so it was important to make the distinction in Paul’s letter.
Thank you so much for all of these videos. So very appreciated & helpful.
I was widowed at age 23 after 14 months of marriage and had 17 single years thereafter to puzzle over Jesus', view on my position in his kingdom in view of "all scripture" (Timothy). Although he lifted women up, I still am encouraged to apply his humility (Phil 2) as Lysa does. Thank you for addressing this.
One time that Jesus said "no" to a woman's comment was to the one who blessed his mother for her womb and breasts rather than for her dedication to his Word (Luke 11:27&28).
Thank you for watching, Betty!
Lisa I'm reading your new book and I'm a couple steps behind you in life. I wish I could talk to you on the phone!! Your a wonderful sister and I thank you for sharing your life with us! ❤️
Thanks for watching, Alysa!
This was a much needed conversation
Thank you for watching, Shae!
Titus 2: 3 - 5 another letter from Paul, tells that older women or older Christians can teach the younger women.
I have to absolutely confirm what Lysa heard God say to the woman who believes that women should not teach. The Holy Spirit is our guide. He performs a very personal work in each of us. There is a time to gather stones and a time to throw them. He brings conviction to one person because that is what she needs to do at that time in her life. The one who was supposed to be teaching wasn't. Unfortunately, the one who wasn't supposed to be teaching was actually trying to do so, without recognizing her own disobedience. This happens ALL the time.
Certain things are always wrong. But the church causes so much damage by making certain things commands for all time for all people. God had a covenant with Israel, but eventually sent them into exile. Why are women expected to be more faithful than God?
I was a rebellious and self-indulgent person before coming to Christ. God taught me to submit to my husband and trust Him with the results. He blessed an prospered our family as a result.
Now it is time for my husband's sanctification, but he is not willing to get help for our marriage, so it is time for me to leave.
God has opened the door wide to leave, but many accuse me of disrespect and refusal to submit. None of them understand anything about the context of our marriage.
No one has asked me questions about why, even though God's word warns us that every man's cause seems right until his neighbor examines him. They all believe my husband.
We do God such disservice and do such harm to His children by drawing little boxes around Him and limiting Him to operating within our simple rules. We strain out the gnat and swallow a camel by encouraging and institutionalizing one-sided, abusive marriages, rather than encouraging each person to display God's image to their full capacity.
Thank you for your podcast. It always encourages and comforts me at a time when very few of the important people who have been important in my life want anything to do with me except to lecture.
Thank you for watching, and for sharing part of your story with us, friend.
I just want to let you know your ability to expound and reason here in this comment is very balanced. I think you have a lot to give and I hope God gives you a platform to do so. This journey is not what we would choose, rather like Hoseas. But the breaking of our hearts in alignment with what breaks Gods heart seems to create deeper wisdom. Bless you.
Amen…. Thank you I have been asking God to show me and give me wisdom and discernment in theses verses. So thankful for all of you and your teachings! God is so good and faithful!
We're so glad this helped you!
This is an important discussion to have, and I certainly would not discount the historical information Joel refers to, but it is important to also see the big picture of how Paul teaches,, Which is to present universal principles within the context of more local or temporal situations. This is repeated over and over in first and second Corinthians, for example. I would be extremely cautious in jumping to the conclusion that Paul had temple prostitution or any Ephesian cult of women in mind, when he doesn’t make reference to either of those things, whereas in Corinthians, he does make reference to specific problems and gives the relevant universal principle. At the same time, and understanding of how Paul teaches in general principles helps us avoid extreme applications, such as saying a woman should not seek counseling based on this passage. But by comparing this passage to the other New Testament passages about the role of women in the home and in the church we do come to understand the broader enduring principles, which are that women should not be in obvious permanent leader ship roles over men in either the church or the home. absolutely no problem with women teaching women or youth the Bible with men listening in. Fine to pray and share as well. In that sense, Scripture is like a jigsaw puzzle, where as you put all the pieces together with regard to a specific topic the picture becomes more clear, but we must be careful not to discount certain pieces or relegate them to unobscured corner when that is not where they are intended to fit.
Thank you for watching, friend.
I think that maybe some women were being disruptive by asking questions that needed to be answered later by their husbands or in private by another person. Paul was trying to set boundaries in order for the church to move forward without chaos.
@@dawnoesterling3645 there were forced “in a way “ to ask their male friends, family, husbands -- because they were not taught/educated. Therefore advice was to French biased in beliefs, during Paul’s writings.
Great discussion btw 😊
Exactly. Paul mentions current issues in other letters. Even addressing that someone was sleeping with their mother in law! But I would have to think that, if what he was addressing was a current issue, he would have said so. But he says "For" or because and goes to Creation order. I'm not convicneed of Joel's interpretation because I don't see a oneness or equality in verses 12-13. In fact, Paul actually says a first and second, which by definition means order, not a flattening out. Thank you for pointing us to the importance of reading and understanding Scripture as a whole.
Thank you!
Thank YOU!!🎉
Thank you for watching, friend!
Thanks Lysa! ❤
Thank you for watching, friend!
Wow this was really powerful! Thank you to you all for such a God living talk at the table! Really is an intriguing conversation to have so many thoughts come across and really opens up allot of who we should be for the Lord. Love listening to you all and am in the OBS of Lysa’s book Boundaries and Goodbyes and it is opening up my eyes!! ❤😊
We love having you be a part of our community! Thanks for watching, Penny!
The enemy would love for us to be silent.
Paul also names several women that are blessed and deacons too.
The sexism by Biblical translators means the words in Greek Paul used for Pheobe are translated “servant” and “helper” instead of “Deacon or Minister” and “overseer or manger” in all other circumstances.
3 Things Satan offered Eve in the Garden of Eden. 1.Knowledge- The tree of knowledge, good and evil. 2. Pleasure- Eva saw that it was delicious to eat" and... 3. Autonomy- liberate ourselves from the authority of God. "To follow the dictates of his heart. That is why the scripture takes us to Adam and Eve the biblical design. The human being was already created in his image and likeness. first lie. There is an order that God gave to women and a place. Let's look at what instructs us in Proverbs? The pious and prudent woman. Let us teach our children. In addition to the other examples already mentioned in today's topic regarding the women of the Bible. Our prayer is that we embrace the biblical, loving and original design of our Father. Blessings 🙌
Thank you for watching, friend.
I love that you broke all this down. Yes and Amen! Satan who also knows scripture wants Gods word silent and possibly comes in the form of other women wanting other women silent…
Thanks for watching, Heather!
Thank you for the Progran and giving your point of view on what you understand about it.
Paul message on the New Testament was for the Church at that time, and also for all Churches in the future, it’s a Biblical Model that shows on different times, and different cultures.
Example, when Paul revert back to the times of Adam and Eva, it was used as a model, an example, a Fixt reference to compare to.
Just like the end times, it will be like in the times before the Flood, on Noah’s days.
Woman professing, and telling others about their testimony, the Bible does not equate it to been officially the Preacher, Pastor, Rabbi of any Biblical sound congregation.
What we think or feel, does not determine what God shows or teach in His word.
God’s words are never up for debate.
And the confusion comes there sometimes.
I've always said Fathr is a many Faceted God. Thank you for sharing.
What???? This is definitely not Christian. I assume you are a new ager of some form?
I like your response to the person asking why you didn't demand a seat at the table. I would add 1. Demanding and throwing tantrums is not becoming and not mature as we are called to be mature in Christ and as the secular author of the Game of Thrones series had in the TV show where the father said, "Anyone who says, 'I am the king' is no true king"
2. Jesus Himself owns the table. so who are you really demanding from and Jesus Himself says to MEN debating the same idea that the first shall be last and the last shall be first.
I have a couple of questions…if women were so uneducated, then why were PRISCILLA and Aquila discipling Paul? Why in the world do you make the leap from “women should be silent” (in terms of church) and apply it to “what if the Samaritan woman had been silent? What if Mary had been silent?” That is an incredible leap. There’s more to this verse, in the context of the whole chapter, than is being hit on. I appreciate all of the research you say you did but would appreciate more if you shared from people who tend to land on both sides of the fence (egalitarian and complimentarian). This is coming across very heavy in the egalitarian department and I don’t think that’s biblical.
I think though that you are correct when you say it has to do with order in the church. And it’s taken back to genesis to remind us of the order God laid out. Not a “hierarchy”, but a chain of command that reflects the Godhead.
Has there been abuse in the church? Absolutely. But do I agree with your interpretation of the verse? Not really. I don’t think that Keener’s thoughts hold much water. And on this, I will refer to Pastor Mike Winger and the incredibly long and extensive series he’s been doing on Women in Ministry. He’s read sources from both sides of the fence, has SHARED those resources and has taken in sources even from the time that Paul wrote. It’s fascinating, to say the least. (By the way, I completely believe that women are to be in ministry and I believe that it is biblical. That women should be pastors and elders? No. But let’s not at all take the leap from “women aren’t to be pastors” to say “women shouldn’t be in ministry”. That’s a leap that there is zero biblical evidence for).
In English Bibles the greek words used to describe Phoebe by translators as “servant” and “helper” were always otherwise used for men and translated “overseer or manager” and “deacon or minister”.
Agreed! To say that those who disagree want to "silence" women isn't helpful to the conversation that started off seeking charity.
Donna Howell's book The Handmaiden Conspiracy is a good book to read on this topic. She has done quite a bit of research.
Thanks for watching, friend!
Absolutely. I got some great understanding from her material.
Just because someone has done a lot of research does not mean he or she has strong arguments. Don’t make that mistake. Just look at the number of even “New Testament” scholars who deny Jesus rose from the dead, deny miracles happened, etc. Many arguments laid out in these types of books have proven to be fallacious. Always read with a critical attitude, double checking whether what she is arguing not just “feels good,” or aligns with what you already agree with, but whether or not the evidence she is citing is valid, other evidence is not being suppressed, and the conclusions she draws are actually supported by that evidence. These are just cautions as I have not read her book in particular, but I have read far too many books by supposed scholars who clearly read their biases into Scripture and twist it to fit.
Where are show notes with Dr Mudamalle’s paper that we can access? Did not find on podcasts either. Thanks
Hi Cindy! Here's where you can go to download the resource discussed in the podcast: proverbs31.org/read/resource-library/resources/2022/10/17/i-still-have-questions-about-the-value-of-women?THPOD
To say that Paul was talking about "oneness" in reference to the Hebrew understanding of creation is a dishonest interpretation. Paul clearly was referring to the distinction of when they were created. Adam first, then Eve. That is distinction, not oneness. I don't have a problem with women teachers. Most women were not educated in Paul's day. Times have changed. But to appeal to Scripture in a different way than it states is not appropriate.
I appreciate Dr. Joel Muddamalle's studies and would like a copy of the study he mentioned in this episode. I looked in the show notes but cannot find them. Can you tell me where I can find it? Thank you kindly
Hi Kat! Here's a link to download that resource: proverbs31.org/read/resource-library/resources/2022/10/17/i-still-have-questions-about-the-value-of-women?YT&THPOD
OK, this is where I had to pause. Help me understand the difference between the culture surrounding the Corinthians and the culture of our day. Women wearing elaborate jewels, prostitution, declaring themselves superior to men? Doesn't that sound like the world we live in today? Maybe it's not so specific to that particular culture, but a result of being in a fallen world. In other words, all Scripture is applicable to all people at all times.
I listened to your podcast today for the first time- interesting that it was this topic. I understand your podcast to say women with knowledge can teach, but what are your thoughts on women holding decision making roles within the church?
I think Dr Joel has been very clear in the first part of this six part series. If a woman was considered equal by God in the garden, equal by Jesus in the Gospels and equal by Paul throughout his ministry, that question is already answered. Women are equal, God needs us to be heard and neither are to rule over the other. Women have value as persons by virtue of being made in Gods image and a crucial role of bringing stability to society. Male & Female are two witnesses on earth of the glory of God regardless of whether they are married or just co-labourers.
Also look at the Prov 31 woman. She made all the decisions for the household and the family merchant business, including buying land. Deborah made all the judicial decisions over Israel for a season.
I hope this question gets Joel’s input in another episode.
Judges Chapter 4 you have the ruler of Israel a woman. Read Ch4 and 5. Important Decisions were made by her as she was prophetic. Even battle decisions. She told the commander what to do.
At 20:52 Joel refers to his work that would be made available. Where can I find this?
Hi Tami! Here's a link for Joel's paper. proverbs31.org/read/resource-library/resources/2022/10/28/i-still-have-questions-about-what-makes-a-woman-resilient?YT&
1 corinthians 7:5 during seperation what would be the process and what is concidered mutual consent? At what point should a married couple that is seperated be coming back together for intimacy? Therapy and theology could you unpack what consent should look like and please explain what does coming together look like, what should we know and how should we address the text about coming back together so the devil doesnt tempt you? Confusing.
I don’t understand why Paul wouldn’t mention Artemis. I get they every one there would get it, but the Holy Spirit allowed him to put it in generically in such a way that most of
Church history would misunderstand? I mean, even the early church fathers who lived close to that culture seemed to misunderstand.
The book of Acts mentions the temple of Artemis and his encounter with the people who worshipped her.
So glad to see this topic. We need more of this discussion.
So many verses in The Bible confuse me. When I read or listen to them, if I keep them in the story that is being told they make perfect sense. When I hear them used in someone's sermon, the question always comes to mind and that is, "Is this verse being used out of context to show what they are preaching about". I have asked a couple of pastors about the latter but I do not get straight answers.
(I haven't watched this video.)
If you are referring to questions about gender and
what women can or can't do in a church setting, then
I suggest my short essay on Deborah.
My wife asked me listen to this podcast. I opened my Bible to follow along so that I could see what is being discussed. In looking at 1 Timothy 2, it seems to me that there are some leaps being made. First, I don’t see the “oneness” in the text of 1 Timothy 2 that Joel describes. I agree that God made man and woman equally in His image. But that’s not Paul’s argument at all in verse 13-14. However, what Paul does mention is an order, which points to a headship. This is not a hierarchy of authority but rather accountability. God has ordered it in that way in the family.
Which leads me to the second concern: if what is being described by Joel is true, how does that carry over to marriage? God has certainly laid out a husband as the head while both are equal in dignity and value. In Ephesians 5, Paul directly connects this to husband is the head of the wife as Jesus is the head over the church. Then in 1 Timothy 3, the elders oversee the church and 1 Peter 5 says pastor shepherd the flock of God. Just as with marriage, the pastor does not have a higher value over the other believers, but does have a responsibility and accountability to God (James 3:1). As image bearers, everyone is equal. But in the church and the family, God has ordained male headship accountability. Men and women are equal but different roles. Paul points to the order in 1 Timothy 2. I don’t see any “flattening out” of that, as described in the podcast. It would have been nice to actually walk through verses 12-13 to demonstrate it from the text.
The third point is then the reference of support for this interpretation by looking at the Trinity. There is certainly an equality and unity within the Godhead. They are all equally God. However, there is also an order and submission as well that I didn’t hear referenced. The Son submits to the Father. He only does the Father’s will. The Spirit proceeds from the Son and Father and doesn’t draw attention to Himself, only testifies of Christ. So while they are equal in nature, they are not equal in roles. Same with the family. Same with the church. Is it “devaluing” or “silencing” to say that the Son submits to the Father or that the Spirit has a different role from Christ within the Trinity? So why use that language towards complementarians?
Finally, after talking about not weaponizing language, there are several shots taken at those who disagree. First, yes I know that there has been abuse and I 100% denounce that. It's not Christ-like, at all. But, to say that there are those who want to “silence” women, as if that’s what Complementarianism is about? Second, it was also said that there are those who are theologically dishonest. I’m hoping that was a blanket statement that some on both sides do that and not a shot at those who disagree. Lastly, I looked for Joel’s paper referenced because I hoped that some of my questions above would be answered in it. But I was surprised when I found the link, that the paper is titled: “I still have questions about the value of women”. That title itself is begging the question that those who disagree question the value of women. I fully agree with seeking charity and you guys’ approach was one of humility, which I appreciated. But with word choices and titles, there were several shots at the other side.
Just wanted to give some honest feedback.
Cool. My wife and I learnt this about 5 years ago. Jonathan welton taught this and also mentioned cult of Diana. Woman to be silent not women.
Those men do not allow the brothers and sisters in through that door 🚪 Christ spoke of nor do they enter in either! Very important for today message! It’s still ongoing but not for long as we SHIFT INTO a new Earth! It’s coming soon to a locality near all of US!
This is why Lysa is the moment. Period.
Thank you for watching, friend.
beLIEve!! NO KNOW KNOWLEDGE:) there is wisdom in a multitude of counsel!
Re. the 1Cor 14:26-37 passage, clearly it cannot be Paul who wrote that bit. Paul wasn't stupid enough to believe that "they must be in submission as the law says", because the Law says no such thing.
A far more likely explanation is that it was a quote from their letter to Paul, that Paul is addressing. The clincher here is the very next word after that bit (V36). In Greek it looks like an "n". It is a disjunctive conjunction. "Disjunctive" means that it expresses a clear choice between two mutually exclusive things. It is usually translated "or" or "what". But if a few words are added to help translate it, we could have, "That is simply not true. Did the Word of God originate with you (men)? Or are you the only people (men) it has reached?"
Now it totally makes sense. Neither "or" nor "what" in any way do it justice. Just my thoughts. And my wife says that I have been known to be wrong.
He mentioned his position paper and putting it in the show notes. I don't see that?
Hi Sabrina! Here's a link to Joel's paper: proverbs31.org/read/resource-library/resources/2022/10/17/i-still-have-questions-about-the-value-of-women?YT&THPOD
In 1 Timothy 2:14 it says Adam was not deceived. So is it saying Adam when he reveled against GOD. Cause I have a friend that believes that it is wrong for a woman to be pastors or teach the Bible.
Your friend wants to twist the meaning of the scriptures to get his girlfriend to be 100% submissive to HIM.
Actually 9/11 in my setting would be 9th November
Thank you so much for your explanation of why you are teaching. God has given me the gift of knowledge and I struggled with th misconceptions of women teaching men. Why would God give me such a gift as this if I can only use it with women? That didn’t make sense to me, so I researched it, like you I have a passion for sharing my testimony and knowledge of Gods word. Thank you for affirming what I have discovered also.
Thanks for watching, friend!
I love this show, please keep the episodes coming.
IT IS CALLED (DIVISIVE) The word you struggled to find! Period HE CAME TO BRING A SWORD/wordS which cuts through the fat of contentions! Deal with the one looking at you in the mirror! Your answer is in you not in another man to look up to for the answers! GOD DEALS DIRECTLY NOW because IT IS ✅ FINISHED!
I think that possibly the Greek unbeliever women would come and ask questions similar to the serpent's questions, with similar motives. I see a lot of people who are animus to God ask questions like that. I.e. "Is God really fair if there is so much evil?"
Women who'd want to learn would not be interrupting the church but listen. I don't believe that Jewish women were rowdy and uncultured. People of those days were much more somber.
Also, women did not study Torah and Prophets and the whole OT, but now they do! Now women know it and are equally under His grace and have the anointing(Holy Spirit) in them that teaches them as ApPaul says.
I feel I was discouraged from staying in the word because nobody needs it from a woman. 😞
The way Lysa approaches this subject carefully is wise. Why is it delicate? Pride. It’s a triggering topic because of spiritual abuse. I’m sorry you have faced obstacles and pain in your journey to teach the truth.
There is a brokenness in the church on gender. Eve is an example of deception and gives females a tainted reputation. In my past experiences, this provides criticism about females on Issues like: women shouldn’t teach men, submit to their husbands (w/o context), and women are considered secondary in the hierarchy of the family. I am disappointed in this obtuse treatment of women. Hurting people in the name of control and extremism is factious. Let’s be gentle, kind and give grace toward each other.
When will individual women be able to DEFINE THEMSELVES.
define themselves how? by who they say they are or who God says they are? Who also defines their role? themselves or God who made them?
Well you make the good and interesting point why a woman might not be permitted to teach. The bible doesn't say such except in referencing to in certain churches the women there were busy bodies spreading nonsense (as mike winger covers in his thorough look on this matter) but it never says because women are less intelligent. It is unhealthy men with an unhealthy outlook who say their own interpretive opinion most often that because Eve and women in general were more deceivable, they need to be taught by men. Men are also deceived. Deceit, a type of temptation, a form of it is never gender specific. Satan uses different tactics when it comes to the sexes in how to employ temptations, but temptation and deceit is never gender specific. In fact, like I commented on Mike Winger's long look at these passages (11-12 hours long) that this often pastoral male notion that women are more deceivable is nonsense. It is rather mixed up with being gullible and gullible and deceived are two different things. In fact, the devil had to pull out deceit because the enemy knew that Eve was no dummy. That he had to use practical and spiritual Pros (leaving out the cons)
There is no male without the female and vice versa.
I think that forgiveness is good but less not be a carpet where someone wipes their feet all over you over and over again.
This is seriously amazingly beautiful ☝🏼🙌🏼🙏🏼🫂
Thank you for watching, friend!