Joel looks down on women. Just so you know. Don't be fooled by his persuasive words. He mentioned @25:08 that he's a soft complementarian. That's not a good thing. He's making his talking points all about a position of authority rather than simply having a servant's heart open to God's call. He's a misogynist.
Humility gives us the ability to have conviction in our belief system, compassion in the way we communicate, and always keeps us rooted in the context of being a citizen of the kingdom of heaven. - Joel Muddamalle 🔥
haven't watched this podcast in a while but been exploring this question recently. Very greatful for Joel as a guest, I think he's been really helpful in undesrtanding & articulating.
Since a woman could be a pastor in the Old Covenant, a woman can be a pastor in the New Covenant. Simple really. I suggest my short and free essay on Deborah. Men and women are perfectly equal spiritually. She was a pastor, according to the scriptures. This is how the Judges are described in Chronicles, by God. A woman could only be given the authority by God to execute a man for his sin, if women are spiritually equal to men. A Judge could judge homicide cases according to Deuteronomy. Therefore Deborah, as a Judge, could execute a man for his sin. A Judge was cleared to teach from scripture as he/she gave a verdict, according to Deuteronomy. Since in Judges 4, men went to Deborah to be judged, a woman could teach men, even in the Old Covenant in a public setting.
Who told you it was wrong? Maybe you didn't catch it, but Joel mentioned he's a soft complementarian @25:08. That's a subservient approach towards women. He's being a misogynist. God can use anyone he pleases to get his message across however he pleases. Not every woman has the desire to be in the kitchen. Especially in this era. And that's cool. Read Acts 2:17. Read Exodus 15:20
Great podcast. What's interesting is we try to understand vs. just obeying when God literally say don't lean on your own understanding. 1st Corinthians- 14:33. For God is not the author of confusion. Proverbs 3:5-6. Also, we have the 1st century churches on these issues.
6:04 it’s not simply weird. 1 Corinthians 11 - 4 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, 5 but every wife[c] who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, since it is the same as if her head were shaven.
Your wrong read Galations 3:28 ESV There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
@@WhatsOnYourMind. Genuinely curious what you think about this verse though. 1 Corinthians 14:34 "Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says."
@@emptypool7236 MY comment is here: Part 11 PAUL STATES THAT WOMEN SHOULD BE SILENT As in all the churches of the saints, the women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church. -excerpt 1 Corinthians 14 In this matter Paul speaks of the 'law'. There is a small possibility that he is referring to a Roman or local law. If not, then Paul is stating that Christian women were still under the Old Covenant laws. Yet there was no Old Covenant law that states that women should be silent. Then the daughters of Zelophehad...came forward. They stood before Moses, before Eleazar the priest, before the leaders, and all the congregation at the entrance of the tent of meeting, saying, “Our father died in the wilderness, yet he was not among the group of those who gathered together against the Lord, in the group of Korah; but he died in his own sin, and he had no sons. Why should the name of our father be withdrawn from among his family simply because he had no son? Give us property among our father’s brothers.” So Moses brought their case before the Lord. Then the Lord said to Moses, “The daughters of Zelophehad are right about their statements. You shall certainly give them hereditary property among their father’s brothers... -excerpts Numbers 27 These women were not rebuked, even though they spoke before everyone, including Moses. What they asked for was granted to them, because God agreed with them.
1 Timothy 3 says "husband of one wife." I don't want to be insensitive, but it is not that complicated of a question. Both elders and deacons are supposed to be a man..... Just because its cool or functional to have a female pastor doesn't justify it. 1 Timothy 2:12 is rooted in creation therefore its binding forever. Within the context of the church, I think scripture is clear that a man should teach and women shouldn't teach men. Paul when talking about marriage roots it in creation, so we all affirm it doesn't change. Timothy also roots it in creation, therefore it doesn't change.
The word deacon in Greek is διάκονος. Deacon just means servant. It can be used in different ways. Sometimes the Bible uses the word "world" to refer to the whole world (John 3:16), and other times to talk about the ungodly. (1 John 2:15). Other times "world" meant many people around the area. (John 12:19). Therefore its not odd that the Apostle Paul would refer to Phoebe as a deacon, he is not referring to the deacon role. He is simply saying she serves the church. (There is a different from serving the church and having the biblical servant (deacon) role. I could call my grandpa an elder, but that doesn't mean he is an elder in a church. Words have various meanings in different contexts. The key to this whole debate is that when we approach the Bible, we let the didactic or teaching passages clarify narrative passages. So when Paul is explicitly laying out the qualifications for the deacon role he says "husband of one wife." The deacon is supposed to be a man. And if one dismisses this, then you can dismiss that elders don't need to be men either, bc Paul uses the same phrase talking about how an elder must be a "husband of one wife." I think it's a slipperly slope, that being said I think someone can be a gospel believing Christian and disagree, But I do think that scripture is clear. We need to interpret vague passages with clear passages. @@Cdyt593
@@Cdyt593 Strong's #1249: diakonos (pronounced dee-ak'-on-os) probably from an obsolete diako (to run on errands; compare 1377); an attendant, i.e. (genitive case) a waiter (at table or in other menial duties); specially, a Christian teacher and pastor (technically, a deacon or deaconess):--deacon, minister, servant. I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchreae. I ask you to receive her in the Lord in a way worthy of his people and to give her any help she may need from you, for she has been the benefactor of many people, including me. -NIV translation Phoebe is the first, of about 20 or so people Paul mentions in Romans 16. Since a specific person at a specific church is mentioned, then the woman Phoebe, was a deacon. This word is not always translated as deacon however. At least not always in the King James Version.
@@Cdyt593 I then thought it the more needful to get at the facts behind their statements. Therefore I placed two women, called “deaconesses,” under torture, but I found only a debased superstition carried to great lengths, so I postponed my examination, and immediately consulted you. -excerpt Pliny the Younger’s Letter to Emperor Trajan Regarding the Christians about 111 A.D.
I've never heard that women can't be deaconesses since there is no leadership involved in being a servant in the church. I think about Anna who spent her life as a widow serving in the Temple waiting for Jesus. I completely 100% agree with you on elders/pastors/teachers. We as women should never be in authority over or teaching men. I've just never seen in the Bible where it says a woman cannot be a deaconess since a deacon/deaconess is a servant in the church. Servants are not leaders and are not in any position of authority.
@@Rmiller488Which pastor Wenger rightfully divides the word of truth. Not saying you should take his word for it, but, if your interested, watch it, and then search the scriptures to see what he is saying is true. I would say the same for JP here; be a Berean of the word. We should be as wise as serpants and as gentle as doves. God bless.
1 Timothy 2 is very clear women are not able to teach or have authority in the church as elders or deacons. There saved you hours of listening Mike Wingers video.
@@AllforOne_OneforAll1689 You are carving out Scripture to mean what you want it to mean, as that verse comes with an entire chapter of content conveniently left out. Paul actually had women in authority in his ministry. And finally, Christ overrides your misogyny, when Jesus states in Galatians 3:28, And "WE NO LONGER" see each other in our former state-Jew or non-Jew, rich or poor, male or female-because we’re all ONE through our union with Jesus Christ.
@@WhatsOnYourMind. That is you who is doing that. That passage in Galatians is referring to salvation and not church leadership/position. Remember Paul ties a woman's inability to teach and hold authority over a man in the church to creation and not the culture. Stop calling names and get biblical. There's a reason all 12 of Jesus' disciples/apostles were men!
I’ve been struggling for months about this very topic. Our senior pastors wife was just named as associate pastor and it’s dividing the congregation. Joel, I want to thank you for putting this topic in its proper context. Is it worth losing people worshipping our Creator over whatever the motivation might be, pride, selfishness etc? Thanks again for bringing this to light.
(I haven't watched the video.) You need to know 2 things. #1) Understand Deborah and what a Judge was (I have a short free postable essay.) #2) Understand and know, that Paul wasn't a perfect teacher. (That is another free essay.) Commentary with scripture, with limited opinions.
I think you guys need to go to the original Greek for the Corinthians question. The word silent is lalein which refers to speaking in utterances or an unknown tongue
Since a woman could be a pastor in the Old Covenant, a woman can be a pastor in the New Covenant. Simple really. I suggest my short and free essay on Deborah. Men and women are perfectly equal spiritually. She was a pastor, according to the scriptures. This is how the Judges are described in Chronicles, by God. A woman could only be given the authority by God to execute a man for his sin, if women are spiritually equal to men. A Judge could judge homicide cases according to Deuteronomy. Therefore Deborah, as a Judge, could execute a man for his sin.
it is not true to say that because Deborah was a prophet and prophets are leaders, therefore women can be any type of leader including the preaching pastor of a church. The difference between a prophet and the preaching pastor of a church may well be as profound as the difference between a cat and a dog. Therefore the argument simply isn’t relevant or compelling. The role of the “judge” in Israel is not well known. The Hebrew word that is used in Judges 4:4 could equally be translated as “leader” or “defender”. Indeed, “defender” seems like the best option given the context of the story. Deborah’s narrative therefore could be used to provide Biblical justification for Joan of Arc, but it’s less clear that it provides Biblical justification for a female Charles Spurgeon. All we can say for sure was that Deborah was some kind of leader in Israel. It seems she led alongside Barak and that their ministry was one of military defense and deliverance. Deborah was a leader - pastors are leaders, but that does not mean that Deborah was a pastor. She did not preach a sermon, discipline a member or determine a doctrine. Her story, while interesting and inspired, has no bearing on this contemporary controversy.@@8784-l3b
@@Rooples (In case the reader in unaware, the word pastor and the word shepherd are the same word. I prefer shepherd, because it has obvious meaning to the average person.) Major modern English translations like the NASB use the phrasing ...whom I commanded to shepherd My people... In all places where I have walked with all Israel, have I spoken a word with any of the judges of Israel, whom I commanded to shepherd My people, saying, ‘Why have you not built Me a house of cedar?’ -excerpt 1 Chronicles 17 verse 6 NASB translation Some believe that pastor (or shepherd), is a position that was created in the New Covenant. This is not true. In the Old Testament shepherds are mentioned multiple times. Often in a negative way. “My people have become lost sheep; Their shepherds have led them astray. -excerpt Jeremiah 50 For an entire chapter on worthless shepherds, the reader may check out Ezekiel 34. When the shepherd over Israel died, the people went back into sin. That is because the Judge was the most important spiritual leader of this time period. But it came about, when the judge died, that they would turn back and act more corruptly than their fathers, in following other gods to serve them and bow down to them; they did not abandon their practices or their obstinate ways. -excerpt Judges 2 Deborah, full essay read time: 12 minutes, free, postable
@@8784-l3b please pray with humility that God will grant you the wisdom and clarity to see the truth of His word on this topic. The old testament judges functioned differently and Deborah was an exception. Paul related the prohibition of women as 'pastors' all the way to the creation order. God never designed women to have SPIRITUAL headship over men. Definitely recommend Pastor Mike Winger's extensive teaching on this for you to consider. Just search for it on youtube🙂
thank you, it's a hard topic to talk about especially because our colthure today.. don't be worry obout what other people think or want, look at the bible, what God's word is saying. Should Women Be Pastors? no. Should Women teach at church? no. it's super clear from the scripture if you read it without being biased, or having ideas of your own. as you sayed before - if i was on a island and have only the bible to learn from the will of God - what would i think of this isue? the question is not if i can understand it this way, because thats what the text is really saying. the question is: "would i choose to surrender to it, without excuses or not"? Don't be afraid to be different and strange in this twisted world.
Interesting conversation! Ironically, there are still those of us who practice those ordinances today. The head covering, the Holy Kiss (clarification: on the cheek! And only in public with the same gender.) And we only have male pastors. The ladies may give testimonies, teach children's SS class, and participate in the adult class discussion, but the leaders/teachers are men. 😊 Imo it goes hand in hand with submission. Thoughts?💁🏻♀️ I enjoy listening to y'all's discussions, and have definitely benefitted from them. 😊 Keep seeking God!🤍
(I haven't watched the video.) Since a woman could be a pastor in the Old Covenant, a woman can be a pastor in the New Covenant. Simple really. I suggest my short and free essay on Deborah. Men and women are perfectly equal spiritually. She was a pastor, according to the scriptures. This is how the Judges are described in Chronicles, by God. A Judge was cleared to teach from scripture as he/she gave a verdict, according to Deuteronomy. Since in Judges 4, men went to Deborah to be judged, a woman could teach men, even in the Old Covenant in a public setting.
@@8784-l3b I appreciate your comment. 😊 Personally, I believe that when Jesus came to earth, he introduced a new way of living... For example, in the OT it said "an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth" but Jesus says to love our enemies, bless those who curse us, and pray for those who despitefully persecute and use us. As far as women in leadership positions, I think it goes along with submission, that women shouldn't be regularly teaching men. As stated in these verses in 1 Corinthians 14:34,35 & 1 Timothy 2:11-15. I do encourage ladies to go to special women's conferences sometimes, and I found them encouraging as well! (I was actually at 1 last weekend. 😁) It can be very helpful for us as young ladies to follow the verses in Titus 2:3-5 and learn from those who are older. Just some somewhat scattered thoughts of mine at the moment.😉
@@Kings-daughter15 Part 11 PAUL STATES THAT WOMEN SHOULD BE SILENT As in all the churches of the saints, the women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church. -excerpt 1 Corinthians 14 In this matter Paul speaks of the 'law'. There is a small possibility that he is referring to a Roman or local law. If not, then Paul is stating that Christian women were still under the Old Covenant laws. Yet there was no Old Covenant law that states that women should be silent. Then the daughters of Zelophehad...came forward. They stood before Moses, before Eleazar the priest, before the leaders, and all the congregation at the entrance of the tent of meeting, saying, “Our father died in the wilderness, yet he was not among the group of those who gathered together against the Lord, in the group of Korah; but he died in his own sin, and he had no sons. Why should the name of our father be withdrawn from among his family simply because he had no son? Give us property among our father’s brothers.” So Moses brought their case before the Lord. Then the Lord said to Moses, “The daughters of Zelophehad are right about their statements. You shall certainly give them hereditary property among their father’s brothers... -excerpts Numbers 27 These women were not rebuked, even though they spoke before everyone, including Moses. What they asked for was granted to them, because God agreed with them. ________________________________________________________________ PREFACE I have no intention of explaining how the email which I now offer to the web was downloaded to my drive. Readers are advised to remember that demons are liars. Not everything that Boltglue says should be assumed to be true, even from his own perspective. -S. Szpak Email #7 Nightowl, my dear brother Our 'good news' is that this war will end and truth will prevail over falsehood. Their 'good news' is just a lie. Fight the good fight against it. Someday our miseries will end, and the Liar's will begin. Not today. Not tomorrow. But soon. Their so-called 'good news' is how new warriors are brought into the fight against us. Since it is a teaching, the first and most important, do all you can to teach that females can't spread the lie of it. If a female can teach this fake gospel to a male she might meet by happenstance, and he turns to the great lie of the gospel, she might logically believe that she can teach any male anything. The last thing we need! Always teach that females can't teach males, especially adult males, because that would be a sin. Even teach that mothers can't teach their adult sons, as that would be sinful. ICMU! Make sure the females can only teach each other. The blind leading the blind. Teach how it makes perfect sense for some in the inferior gender to teach others in the inferior gender. Of course it's contradictory, but it will work. Trust me. If a female can actually teach well, make sure she can't teach the males. The males are superior, so it wouldn't make any sense anyway. Give our truth, that a female teaching a male anything, is always a sin. This will hinder the spread of knowledge and therefore weaken the males. Teach, if you can get away with it, that a female should never even speak to a male about anything in the Old or New Words or anything spiritual for that matter. After all, if a female says something a male didn't know, she would have taught him something. Teach that this accidental sin is still a sin against the Liar. This will encourage a fearful muteness in the females. They will fear the sin of teaching a male. Let the male teach himself. If he is stupid, all the better. Also teach that it only makes sense for the inferior gender to teach gullible and ignorant and supposedly precious children, everything that is important. As I've said, these animals are really dumb and will not question any of the New Words. They will force any and all New Words to be logical, even if they obviously are not. Males will not bother teaching children, since that is female's work, and also demeaning. Demeaning because children are even lesser beings than females. Both slightly above dogs when you think about it. your Godlike older brother Boltglue
And what would be the qualifications for 'father'? For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers... -excerpt 1 Corinthians 4 KJV -words of Paul If one supports the qualifications of elder, as put forward by Paul, one MUST also accept that the title/position of 'father' is valid and proper in Christianity. Since this is also one of Paul's teachings. But the title of 'father' was expressly forbidden by Jesus. And do not call anyone on earth your father; for only One is your Father, He who is in heaven. -excerpt Matthew 23 -words of Jesus
I’d encourage yall to read the church fathers. Some of these questions about knowing which rules were cultural Vs literal could be solved by knowing the teachings of the Apostles. Without this context, you’re drawing your own conclusions to each verse. By seeing what Ignatius or Justin the Martyr said, you are able to see if your conclusions coincide with the beliefs of the Christ’s ministry in Earth. The faith didn’t just end at the end of Acts.
Soo I just randomly stumbled upon this video. I pose a question for around the 8ish minute mark, in regards to the nephilim. How can the sons of God be angelic beings having children with human women, if, Jesus says that angels neither marry or are given in marriage and that in the resurrection we will be like them? Sooo the implication in my this then dispels their ability to have physical intimacy. Just some thoughts off the top of my head.
Going back to head coverings and culturally specific. I think what we do is we say that there is a principle that is true for all time whereas how Paul executed on that principle was culturally specific.
So does JP believe that demons are the spirits of the Nephilim? Because I'm very interested if that is so. I was always told that demons are fallen angles however, I have met some people that think differently. Yall should do a podcast on demons!
I see no issue with a woman being a pastor of women or children. Titus 2 tells older women to teach younger women. The issue is when a woman is a pastor and/or is teaching and in authority over men. The Bible is very clear that that should not happen.
The responsibility of Adam for what happened is a display of male headship. Women saved in childbirth is saying that in male headship and how God has laid out the authority progression. It’s saying that the pulpit is for man and child bearing is for women. the distinction between roles. Christ is submitted to the father, the man submitted to Christ. The women submitted to the man. the pulpit is for the man and the women to be a home maker.
Bring Joel Muddamalle on OFTEN!! What a wealth of knowledge!!
Joel looks down on women. Just so you know.
Don't be fooled by his persuasive words.
He mentioned @25:08 that he's a soft complementarian.
That's not a good thing. He's making his talking points
all about a position of authority rather than simply having
a servant's heart open to God's call. He's a misogynist.
Humility gives us the ability to have conviction in our belief system, compassion in the way we communicate, and always keeps us rooted in the context of being a citizen of the kingdom of heaven. - Joel Muddamalle 🔥
haven't watched this podcast in a while but been exploring this question recently. Very greatful for Joel as a guest, I think he's been really helpful in undesrtanding & articulating.
Since a woman could be a pastor in the Old Covenant, a woman
can be a pastor in the New Covenant. Simple really.
I suggest my short and free essay on Deborah. Men and women are perfectly equal spiritually. She was a pastor, according to the scriptures. This is how the Judges are described in Chronicles, by God.
A woman could only be given the authority by God to execute a man for his sin, if women are spiritually equal to men. A Judge could judge homicide cases according to Deuteronomy. Therefore Deborah, as a Judge, could execute a man for his sin.
A Judge was cleared to teach from scripture as he/she gave a verdict, according to Deuteronomy. Since in Judges 4, men went to Deborah to be judged, a woman could teach men, even in the Old Covenant in a public setting.
Hi everyone, may the Lord bless you all from Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic! Thanks for sharing this episode!
i do not believe women should be pastors but i appreciate this healthy discussion! love this podcast! also yall r hilarious
Who told you it was wrong? Maybe you didn't catch it,
but Joel mentioned he's a soft complementarian @25:08.
That's a subservient approach towards women.
He's being a misogynist. God can use anyone he pleases to
get his message across however he pleases. Not every
woman has the desire to be in the kitchen. Especially in this era.
And that's cool.
Read Acts 2:17.
Read Exodus 15:20
Great podcast. What's interesting is we try to understand vs. just obeying when God literally say don't lean on your own understanding.
1st Corinthians- 14:33. For God is not the author of confusion.
Proverbs 3:5-6.
Also, we have the 1st century churches on these issues.
6:04 it’s not simply weird.
1 Corinthians 11 - 4 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, 5 but every wife[c] who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, since it is the same as if her head were shaven.
Has to be one of my favorite episodes, thank you for bringing bright minds to us!
Should Women Be Pastors? No
Your wrong read Galations 3:28 ESV There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
@@WhatsOnYourMind. Genuinely curious what you think about this verse though. 1 Corinthians 14:34 "Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says."
@@emptypool7236
MY comment is here:
Part 11
PAUL STATES THAT WOMEN SHOULD BE SILENT
As in all the churches of the saints, the women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.
-excerpt 1 Corinthians 14
In this matter Paul speaks of the 'law'. There is a small possibility that he is
referring to a Roman or local law. If not, then Paul is stating that Christian women were
still under the Old Covenant laws.
Yet there was no Old Covenant law that states that women should be silent.
Then the daughters of Zelophehad...came forward. They stood before Moses, before Eleazar the priest, before the leaders, and all the congregation at the entrance of the tent of meeting, saying, “Our father died in the wilderness, yet he was not among the group of those who gathered together against the Lord, in the group of Korah; but he died in his own sin, and he had no sons. Why should the name of our father be withdrawn from among his family simply because he had no son? Give us property among our father’s brothers.” So Moses brought their case before the Lord. Then the Lord said to Moses, “The daughters of Zelophehad are right about their statements. You shall certainly give them hereditary property among their father’s brothers...
-excerpts Numbers 27
These women were not rebuked, even though they spoke before everyone, including Moses.
What they asked for was granted to them, because God agreed with them.
@@WhatsOnYourMind.That verse is related to us all having the same value in Christ NOT authority and responsibility in the church…
@@WhatsOnYourMind. completely out of context...
1 Timothy 3 says "husband of one wife." I don't want to be insensitive, but it is not that complicated of a question. Both elders and deacons are supposed to be a man..... Just because its cool or functional to have a female pastor doesn't justify it. 1 Timothy 2:12 is rooted in creation therefore its binding forever. Within the context of the church, I think scripture is clear that a man should teach and women shouldn't teach men. Paul when talking about marriage roots it in creation, so we all affirm it doesn't change. Timothy also roots it in creation, therefore it doesn't change.
What do you do with the passage about Phoebe the deaconess in Romans 16?
The word deacon in Greek is διάκονος. Deacon just means servant. It can be used in different ways.
Sometimes the Bible uses the word "world" to refer to the whole world (John 3:16), and other times to talk about the ungodly. (1 John 2:15). Other times "world" meant many people around the area. (John 12:19).
Therefore its not odd that the Apostle Paul would refer to Phoebe as a deacon, he is not referring to the deacon role. He is simply saying she serves the church. (There is a different from serving the church and having the biblical servant (deacon) role.
I could call my grandpa an elder, but that doesn't mean he is an elder in a church. Words have various meanings in different contexts.
The key to this whole debate is that when we approach the Bible, we let the didactic or teaching passages clarify narrative passages. So when Paul is explicitly laying out the qualifications for the deacon role he says "husband of one wife." The deacon is supposed to be a man. And if one dismisses this, then you can dismiss that elders don't need to be men either, bc Paul uses the same phrase talking about how an elder must be a "husband of one wife."
I think it's a slipperly slope, that being said I think someone can be a gospel believing Christian and disagree, But I do think that scripture is clear.
We need to interpret vague passages with clear passages.
@@Cdyt593
@@Cdyt593
Strong's #1249: diakonos (pronounced dee-ak'-on-os)
probably from an obsolete diako (to run on errands; compare 1377); an attendant, i.e. (genitive case) a waiter (at table or in other menial duties); specially, a Christian teacher and pastor (technically, a deacon or deaconess):--deacon, minister, servant.
I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchreae. I ask you to receive her in the Lord in a way worthy of his people and to give her any help she may need from you, for she has been the benefactor of many people, including me.
-NIV translation
Phoebe is the first, of about 20 or so people Paul mentions in Romans 16.
Since a specific person at a specific church is mentioned, then
the woman Phoebe, was a deacon. This word is not always translated
as deacon however. At least not always in the King James Version.
@@Cdyt593
I then thought it the more needful to get at the
facts behind their statements. Therefore I placed two
women, called “deaconesses,” under torture, but I
found only a debased superstition carried to great
lengths, so I postponed my examination, and
immediately consulted you.
-excerpt Pliny the Younger’s Letter to Emperor Trajan Regarding the Christians
about 111 A.D.
I've never heard that women can't be deaconesses since there is no leadership involved in being a servant in the church. I think about Anna who spent her life as a widow serving in the Temple waiting for Jesus.
I completely 100% agree with you on elders/pastors/teachers. We as women should never be in authority over or teaching men.
I've just never seen in the Bible where it says a woman cannot be a deaconess since a deacon/deaconess is a servant in the church. Servants are not leaders and are not in any position of authority.
Pastor Mike Winger made a whole video series about it called Women in Ministry. I would check it out
My advice is getting the truth from scripture and trusting God.
@@Rmiller488Which pastor Wenger rightfully divides the word of truth. Not saying you should take his word for it, but, if your interested, watch it, and then search the scriptures to see what he is saying is true. I would say the same for JP here; be a Berean of the word. We should be as wise as serpants and as gentle as doves.
God bless.
1 Timothy 2 is very clear women are not able to teach or have authority in the church as elders or deacons. There saved you hours of listening Mike Wingers video.
@@AllforOne_OneforAll1689 You are carving out Scripture to mean what you want it to mean, as that verse comes with an entire chapter of content conveniently left out. Paul actually had women in authority in his ministry. And finally, Christ overrides your misogyny, when Jesus states in Galatians 3:28,
And "WE NO LONGER" see each other in our former state-Jew or non-Jew, rich or poor, male or female-because we’re all ONE through our union with Jesus Christ.
@@WhatsOnYourMind. That is you who is doing that. That passage in Galatians is referring to salvation and not church leadership/position. Remember Paul ties a woman's inability to teach and hold authority over a man in the church to creation and not the culture. Stop calling names and get biblical. There's a reason all 12 of Jesus' disciples/apostles were men!
Joel is super smart, interesting stuff to think about!
By the title alone, I know it’ll be a good conversation!
I’ve been struggling for months about this very topic. Our senior pastors wife was just named as associate pastor and it’s dividing the congregation. Joel, I want to thank you for putting this topic in its proper context. Is it worth losing people worshipping our Creator over whatever the motivation might be, pride, selfishness etc? Thanks again for bringing this to light.
(I haven't watched the video.)
You need to know 2 things.
#1) Understand Deborah and what a Judge was (I have a short free postable essay.)
#2) Understand and know, that Paul wasn't a perfect teacher.
(That is another free essay.)
Commentary with scripture, with limited opinions.
This was so helpful. Thank you!
I think you guys need to go to the original Greek for the Corinthians question. The word silent is lalein which refers to speaking in utterances or an unknown tongue
It’s pretty clear cut in Titus 🤷🏼♀️
25:50, I think the term youre looking for is headship.
I'll tell you what, the Bible does in fact say that a woman can be a pastor, but only so long as she is the husband of one wife.
😅good one
Since a woman could be a pastor in the Old Covenant, a woman
can be a pastor in the New Covenant. Simple really.
I suggest my short and free essay on Deborah. Men and women are perfectly equal spiritually. She was a pastor, according to the scriptures. This is how the Judges are described in Chronicles, by God.
A woman could only be given the authority by God to execute a man for his sin, if women are spiritually equal to men. A Judge could judge homicide cases according to Deuteronomy. Therefore Deborah, as a Judge, could execute a man for his sin.
it is not true to say that because Deborah was a prophet and prophets are leaders, therefore women can be any type of leader including the preaching pastor of a church. The difference between a prophet and the preaching pastor of a church may well be as profound as the difference between a cat and a dog. Therefore the argument simply isn’t relevant or compelling.
The role of the “judge” in Israel is not well known. The Hebrew word that is used in Judges 4:4 could equally be translated as “leader” or “defender”. Indeed, “defender” seems like the best option given the context of the story. Deborah’s narrative therefore could be used to provide Biblical justification for Joan of Arc, but it’s less clear that it provides Biblical justification for a female Charles Spurgeon.
All we can say for sure was that Deborah was some kind of leader in Israel. It seems she led alongside Barak and that their ministry was one of military defense and deliverance. Deborah was a leader - pastors are leaders, but that does not mean that Deborah was a pastor. She did not preach a sermon, discipline a member or determine a doctrine. Her story, while interesting and inspired, has no bearing on this contemporary controversy.@@8784-l3b
@@Rooples
(In case the reader in unaware, the word pastor and the word
shepherd are the same word. I prefer shepherd, because it has
obvious meaning to the average person.)
Major modern English translations like the NASB use
the phrasing ...whom I commanded to shepherd My people...
In all places where I have walked with all Israel, have I spoken a word with any of the judges of Israel, whom I commanded to shepherd My people, saying, ‘Why have you not built Me a house of cedar?’
-excerpt 1 Chronicles 17 verse 6 NASB translation
Some believe that pastor (or shepherd), is a position that
was created in the New Covenant. This is not true. In the Old Testament
shepherds are mentioned multiple times. Often in a negative way.
“My people have become lost sheep;
Their shepherds have led them astray.
-excerpt Jeremiah 50
For an entire chapter on worthless shepherds, the reader may
check out Ezekiel 34.
When the shepherd over Israel died, the people went back into sin. That is because the Judge was the most important spiritual leader of this time period.
But it came about, when the judge died, that they would turn back and act more corruptly than their fathers, in following other gods to serve them and bow down to them; they did not abandon their practices or their obstinate ways.
-excerpt Judges 2
Deborah, full essay read time: 12 minutes, free, postable
@@8784-l3b please pray with humility that God will grant you the wisdom and clarity to see the truth of His word on this topic.
The old testament judges functioned differently and Deborah was an exception.
Paul related the prohibition of women as 'pastors' all the way to the creation order. God never designed women to have SPIRITUAL headship over men.
Definitely recommend Pastor Mike Winger's extensive teaching on this for you to consider. Just search for it on youtube🙂
thank you, it's a hard topic to talk about especially because our colthure today..
don't be worry obout what other people think or want, look at the bible, what God's word is saying.
Should Women Be Pastors? no.
Should Women teach at church? no.
it's super clear from the scripture if you read it without being biased, or having ideas of your own.
as you sayed before - if i was on a island and have only the bible to learn from the will of God - what would i think of this isue?
the question is not if i can understand it this way, because thats what the text is really saying.
the question is: "would i choose to surrender to it, without excuses or not"?
Don't be afraid to be different and strange in this twisted world.
Interesting conversation!
Ironically, there are still those of us who practice those ordinances today.
The head covering, the Holy Kiss (clarification: on the cheek! And only in public with the same gender.) And we only have male pastors. The ladies may give testimonies, teach children's SS class, and participate in the adult class discussion, but the leaders/teachers are men. 😊
Imo it goes hand in hand with submission. Thoughts?💁🏻♀️
I enjoy listening to y'all's discussions, and have definitely benefitted from them. 😊 Keep seeking God!🤍
(I haven't watched the video.)
Since a woman could be a pastor in the Old Covenant, a woman
can be a pastor in the New Covenant. Simple really.
I suggest my short and free essay on Deborah. Men and women are perfectly equal spiritually. She was a pastor, according to the scriptures. This is how the Judges are described in Chronicles, by God.
A Judge was cleared to teach from scripture as he/she gave a verdict, according to Deuteronomy. Since in Judges 4, men went to Deborah to be judged, a woman could teach men, even in the Old Covenant in a public setting.
@@8784-l3b
I appreciate your comment. 😊
Personally, I believe that when Jesus came to earth, he introduced a new way of living...
For example, in the OT it said "an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth" but Jesus says to love our enemies, bless those who curse us, and pray for those who despitefully persecute and use us.
As far as women in leadership positions, I think it goes along with submission, that women shouldn't be regularly teaching men. As stated in these verses in 1 Corinthians 14:34,35 & 1 Timothy 2:11-15.
I do encourage ladies to go to special women's conferences sometimes, and I found them encouraging as well! (I was actually at 1 last weekend. 😁) It can be very helpful for us as young ladies to follow the verses in Titus 2:3-5 and learn from those who are older.
Just some somewhat scattered thoughts of mine at the moment.😉
@@Kings-daughter15
Part 11
PAUL STATES THAT WOMEN SHOULD BE SILENT
As in all the churches of the saints, the women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.
-excerpt 1 Corinthians 14
In this matter Paul speaks of the 'law'. There is a small possibility that he is
referring to a Roman or local law. If not, then Paul is stating that Christian women were
still under the Old Covenant laws.
Yet there was no Old Covenant law that states that women should be silent.
Then the daughters of Zelophehad...came forward. They stood before Moses, before Eleazar the priest, before the leaders, and all the congregation at the entrance of the tent of meeting, saying, “Our father died in the wilderness, yet he was not among the group of those who gathered together against the Lord, in the group of Korah; but he died in his own sin, and he had no sons. Why should the name of our father be withdrawn from among his family simply because he had no son? Give us property among our father’s brothers.” So Moses brought their case before the Lord. Then the Lord said to Moses, “The daughters of Zelophehad are right about their statements. You shall certainly give them hereditary property among their father’s brothers...
-excerpts Numbers 27
These women were not rebuked, even though they spoke before everyone, including Moses.
What they asked for was granted to them, because God agreed with them.
________________________________________________________________
PREFACE
I have no intention of explaining how the email which I
now offer to the web was downloaded to my drive.
Readers are advised to remember that demons are liars. Not everything that
Boltglue says should be assumed to be true, even from his own perspective.
-S. Szpak
Email #7
Nightowl, my dear brother
Our 'good news' is that this war will end and truth will prevail
over falsehood. Their 'good news' is just a lie. Fight the good
fight against it. Someday our miseries will end, and the Liar's
will begin. Not today. Not tomorrow. But soon.
Their so-called 'good news' is how new warriors are brought into the
fight against us. Since it is a teaching, the first and most important,
do all you can to teach that females can't spread the lie of it. If a
female can teach this fake gospel to a male she might meet by happenstance,
and he turns to the great lie of the gospel, she might logically believe
that she can teach any male anything. The last thing we need! Always
teach that females can't teach males, especially adult males, because
that would be a sin. Even teach that mothers can't teach their adult sons,
as that would be sinful. ICMU!
Make sure the females can only teach each other. The blind leading
the blind. Teach how it makes perfect sense for some in the inferior gender
to teach others in the inferior gender. Of course it's contradictory, but it will
work. Trust me. If a female can actually teach well, make sure she can't
teach the males. The males are superior, so it wouldn't make any sense anyway.
Give our truth, that a female teaching a male anything, is always a sin.
This will hinder the spread of knowledge and therefore weaken the males.
Teach, if you can get away with it, that a female should never even
speak to a male about anything in the Old or New Words or anything
spiritual for that matter. After all, if a female says something a male
didn't know, she would have taught him something. Teach that this
accidental sin is still a sin against the Liar. This will encourage a
fearful muteness in the females. They will fear the sin of teaching
a male. Let the male teach himself. If he is stupid, all the better.
Also teach that it only makes sense for the inferior gender to teach
gullible and ignorant and supposedly precious children, everything that is important.
As I've said, these animals are really dumb and will not question
any of the New Words. They will force any and all New Words
to be logical, even if they obviously are not.
Males will not bother teaching children, since that is female's work,
and also demeaning. Demeaning because children are even lesser beings than females.
Both slightly above dogs when you think about it.
your Godlike older brother Boltglue
We want to use 1 Timothy 3 for qualifications for leadership but ignore 1 Timothy 2 about women not preaching and exercising authority.
And what would be the qualifications for 'father'?
For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers...
-excerpt 1 Corinthians 4 KJV
-words of Paul
If one supports the qualifications of elder, as put forward by Paul, one
MUST also accept that the title/position of 'father' is valid and proper in
Christianity. Since this is also one of Paul's teachings.
But the title of 'father' was expressly forbidden by Jesus.
And do not call anyone on earth your father; for only One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
-excerpt Matthew 23
-words of Jesus
We also ignore 1 Timothy 2 in how women are to dress and be saved.
I’d encourage yall to read the church fathers. Some of these questions about knowing which rules were cultural Vs literal could be solved by knowing the teachings of the Apostles. Without this context, you’re drawing your own conclusions to each verse. By seeing what Ignatius or Justin the Martyr said, you are able to see if your conclusions coincide with the beliefs of the Christ’s ministry in Earth. The faith didn’t just end at the end of Acts.
BE VERY Clear NO NO NO women should not be pastors. Dont go around it.
Yeaaa they did not make it clear lol
Soo I just randomly stumbled upon this video. I pose a question for around the 8ish minute mark, in regards to the nephilim. How can the sons of God be angelic beings having children with human women, if, Jesus says that angels neither marry or are given in marriage and that in the resurrection we will be like them? Sooo the implication in my this then dispels their ability to have physical intimacy. Just some thoughts off the top of my head.
Going back to head coverings and culturally specific. I think what we do is we say that there is a principle that is true for all time whereas how Paul executed on that principle was culturally specific.
Going to BeSo Live and i feel like i need to take a nice pair of Jordans to this church😂
I would watch Mikes Video, super in depth,caring and presented with humility. You guys are awesome.
So does JP believe that demons are the spirits of the Nephilim? Because I'm very interested if that is so. I was always told that demons are fallen angles however, I have met some people that think differently. Yall should do a podcast on demons!
Get someone who would just say there point. I think good things were said but I want to hear from both sides of the table.
@27:16 when somebody busts in JP’s house to hurt his wife, he’ll be greeted by JP and his hidden piece 🤣
I see no issue with a woman being a pastor of women or children. Titus 2 tells older women to teach younger women. The issue is when a woman is a pastor and/or is teaching and in authority over men.
The Bible is very clear that that should not happen.
The responsibility of Adam for what happened is a display of male headship. Women saved in childbirth is saying that in male headship and how God has laid out the authority progression. It’s saying that the pulpit is for man and child bearing is for women. the distinction between roles. Christ is submitted to the father, the man submitted to Christ. The women submitted to the man. the pulpit is for the man and the women to be a home maker.
Nope
No
No