Keeping up with dailies/weeklies, grinding, and getting fomo'd left and right instead of just exploring the world and chatting with strangers kills the fun for me.
Agree. MMORPGs used to be much more fun for me because it used to be new world to explore with hidden magical things hidden everywhere. Now everybody know every bumfuck about it and gameplay changed from exploration to doing tasks to optimize their characters.
There's still some MMOs that actually care about the gameplay from level 1, instead of just grinding up to max when "the game begins". I'm thinking mainly GW2, where no expansion has ever added higher level gear and literal exploration gives you literal experience points.
@@Obelion_ The funny thing is that no they weren't, at least not really. WoW had to up the daily cap from 8 to 25 when they added more dailies in the original TBC. Then dailies became a staple in WoTLK, but they were generally optional. You could power game through them in a month, or spread them out over a longer period. There wasn't so much a race to max it out super fast to keep up with the meta. Then Cata, and mop tied reputation to them. So if you wanted the best gear you had to do dailies every day, 8-20 of them, on top of your dungeons and raids. Part of Activisions plan to increase engagement. Get more players playing every day while bleeding subs. So yeah, they've been around since 2006ish, but for someone like me who started with EQ1, they weren't always a thing.
There's two main reasons for that as well. 1. Games are easier or well documented so you don't need to ask questions or coordinate with your group. 2. Combat has become so action oriented and gameplay so face-paced that it leave very little time for chatting.
@@mattmason8474 None, it's based on the person themselves, I have created a raiding community with 10 static groups in final fantasy 14, I am talking with almost all of these members which are 80 of them btw. And the discord is also at 300 people, I am actively improving the community talking with people having people interact with the community trying to make it feel alive. And mean while I come across a lot of different kinds of people, some are very social while others are just not into talking or are anxious and only like to dm me because they feel safer that way. Humans are diverse and some people like being social other don't. If for some reason you think you don't like playing mmo's anymore because of the I am not talking to strangers, either do something about it or you might ask if that's the real reason.
Have you tried talking to others rather than waiting for them to talk to you? I make sure every group I join I say hi, people are much more social when you are social too. I have good chats and do mutliple keystones with the same players. I had a guy who had completed 180 20+ keystones... doing +10's with us for 3 hours just because we were social and had a laugh. A complete stranger.
@@kwando472 True but I think there`s more to it. Its great that you created those groups and that you interact with them, but you are all just doing the same one thing and thats the only thing the game lets you do together. Yes, there are some other stuff too, but it's still a very limited interaction compared to what it could be if the game wasnt so theme parky. The game`s design is a bit at fault, as there is very little reason or tools to do anything together other than that. Everyone basically has to do the exact same things Only difference is whether one of you is a healer and the other is a dps. The only content in the game is what the devs create, and there is very little room to use your imagination and create new things yourselves. You are kind of forced to do those things if you want to progress and the game has only one point which is to progress... so you are a raiding community... because thats the only community that can exist. See what I mean? I am sure its great, but it could be much more.
It's a _TERRIBLE_ argument. I had more fun playing game with strangers and meeting new people and _making friends_ with people in a guild. It had nothing to do with my local friends. I didn't even play _any_ MMOs with local friends.
One of the biggest disappointments of adult life, for me, was finding out just how hard it is to make new friends as an adult. I mean actual friends, and not just people you're cordial with.
I feel u brother, I just started my first work last year and damn I hate how my colleagues is bringin each other down just to kiss ass with our boss, like bro we're all eventually gonna get a raise you don't have to kiss ass and spread rumors about other people to be above them, this adulting sucks for real.
I've tried to throw some parties with people I work with, invite like 14 people, and get maybe two of them to show up consistently. I made three pounds of dip and spent four days eating it because no one showed up that time.
Don’t think it’s necessarily hard to make new friends it just people usually have their friends established by adulthood and they don’t really want more close friends. So it can be hard for someone new to the area, job, etc to break into those friend groups
I agree with some of what you said Josh. Absolutely, a life without responsibilities (middle school or whatever) made ALL games more enjoyable. I used to kick it with the boys on Modern Warfare 2,, some of my favorite gaming memories are from those after school COD sessions. But - I do think something very real is at play here, and not just simple nostalgia. My favorite MMO memory is of playing runescape back in 2005, and I still actively love and enjoy the game today. The thing is, even oldschool runescape is extremely different from playing it in 2005 despite the game taking on the 2007 reboot. Everything is based on grinds, XP Gains, not wasting XP, and minigames are completely dead content. Nobody plays the game for "Fun" anymore, and I think a large part of that is because of how available information is. Players used to fear a quest like Monkey Madness, saying how incredibly hard it was, and the sight of another player holding a dragon scimitar meant they were super knowledgeable. Nowadays, nobody would ever just walk around the world and create their own adventure in their own way... they would never mine coal at a completely inefficient spot. The access to endless guides, wiki pages, and overexaggerating of how important it is to be a high level rather than just having fun is what makes the experience so much different. When everyone is a huge noob, and has no idea what they're doing, the social aspects of the game such as the minigames, chatting with people in a major city, and world events like the party room seem like a fun thing to do, not a waste of XP.
Part of it is the availability of information, but I also think our own ability to process that information plays a part. Guides and walkthroughs and in depth analysis existed for RS even way back in the early 2000s. But as kids we simply weren't concerned with looking for those things, and less likely to be able to apply the information even if we got it. We're adults now. We optimize, because that's what life has taught us to do. We can't help finding the best XP/hour, or most efficient routes, the best gear for a particular boss. Our time is at a premium, and that extends into our recreational activities.
Exactly I think survival games are a perfect example of this. They start of nice and super immersive until a huge clan with way too much free time tske over the server. You're whole play time from that point out is about progressing instead of exploring and having fun. Mmos are no different they start of fun but after a while everybody is just racing to the endgame, everything you do needs to serve some purpose. It also doesnt help that we've seen every type of game a 100 times already, its damn near impossible to create a new fresh mmo experience
Thank you! I had a similar experience trying to get back into the game. I played Runescape for 7 years it was absolutely amazing simply because how easy it was to talk to people and meet friends, hell I still talk with my old guildmates I met back in 2004 despite quitting the game back in 2011. I tried to play the game again multiple times, nobody talks to random players anymore, the game was back but not the community.
@@botousai The you that's finished reading this is different than the one who started reading this. Both of those "you" are dead by the time you read this.
@S p So you're wrong...you had friends in the game because you made them in the game. Just because you didn't bring your irl friends into the game didn't mean you didn't have friends in the game
Ha, I work a 32 hours job and it's still more time investment than school was ^^ But at least nowadays my mom doesn't come in to turn of the N64 because I played for an hour xD
Saddest thing is: Since my third last year in school i have such a hard time making friend and trusting anyone that i NEVER made friends online or in games and ALLWAYS played EVERYTHING singleplayer. For 14 years now. The concept of making friends in games is absolutely alien to me
I used to love this mmorpg called Dofus, until they kept changing it and making it worse. I played it for over 10 years I think. Way too many good things to list about it, but 1 great memory I have was this weapon I had. A bow. It was pretty high level but barely did any damage, and was expensive to make. It was very hard to use: you had to change your stats (for the worse?) to equip it. Why use it? It took money from people you hit with it. Their actual game money. Leaves their bag and goes into yours. I found this guy I hated, AFK out in the middle of nowhere. I attack him in PvP, he's still afk. I start making these healing barriers around him, like a cage. I start shooting him, stealing his money. The barriers (giant carrots actually) heal him every turn. He stays AFK for like 28 MINUTES! The bow steals a random amount 1 to 5,000, I stole like 80,000 before he came back. He started cursing at me and attacking the carrots surrounding him because he's stuck in a carrot cage lol. I can't remember who won, I think I did. But the important thing is I got some really funny revenge and a lot of money from someone who was a jerk to me, and I will remember it forever
Holy shit. I never wanna come across you pissed off in any game. If you didn't know who I was, then I would be fine randomly wandering into you, but I never wanna get on your bad side after reading that. Got a feeling you would find a way to screw someone over even if it wasn't in Dofus. Even without a money stealing bow, I bet you would find a way.
Lol I remember you and your guild, also loved to play Dofus but I feel like many other game developers they fell into the trap of fixing what wasnt broken, see WoW, Runescape - also I read somewhere that they lost 30% of the playerbase when switching to Dofus 2.0
They're all with their friends on discord or something. When you think about it, stuff like guilds were features originating in games when apps like that didn't exist. That WAS your social app, most likely. Nowadays the social/community aspects of gaming can be done better by 3rd party apps, to the point where some guilds have their own discord server now. Times change, man.
They're all with their friends on discord or something. When you think about it, stuff like guilds were features originating in games when apps like that didn't exist. That WAS your social app, most likely. Nowadays the social/community aspects of gaming can be done better by 3rd party apps, to the point where some guilds have their own discord server now. Times change, man.
@@MrpotatoChips It would be nice if there were more MMOs out there for people that like being social and those that want to hide in their little bubble.
I don’t think social apps like discord are a benefit to that end at all though. One of the big draws of an mmo like WoW was that it was such an organic way to meet people on your little adventure. For everything else discord and the likes are good for, fine.. But it does tend to be overly cliquey. In an MMO though? It has no place and its a tragedy that ppl would be stuck in their own discord server
I love that game, Id love to see him review it, but, thats awesome, I always wanted to play games with my dad, and he did play dc universe online with me a few times, which was awesome, but he just wasn't really a gamer and didn't really understand a lot of it, so it just didn't work out, but I guess I'm just saying i think its really cool that you did that
this i can say honestly thre wasa time where suvivability and leveling was 120 in wow - this i can say made me stick around killing bosses w enough challenges- i went back yes w better PC hardware and still had friends...Dying more felt like crap the game felt more like work in SL - expansion wow- today i look @ the game try to enjoy and felt a greater disconnect then a reconnect i still have time in my life work money etc balance despite a few things going up here and there still didnt come back due the fate of fun.. having 350 to 600k health was more satsifying then 52k ... ah yes a memories i wish to relive . as for graphics it felt real enough and cartoon enough.
I remember playing WoW as a kid with my dad and just goofing off or exploring while he went through the tedium of keeping my ass alive lol. Then when I got my ex to play WoW for the first time, she wanted to goof off and run around too. Looking back, I really regret trying to get her to do quests, because It didn't click with me that she was experiencing the game the exact same way I used to, and the way I wish I could again.
I still remember 11 year old me (I’m in my 20s now) running downstairs to tell him I’d finally hit level 20 (I was obsessed with making new characters so that was an achievement at the time)
@@laoch5658 and of course that became the norm cause everyone wanted to be that guy, so just playing the game and talking to ppl stopped being the focus for mmo rpg's. they've been trying to bring that back, but going it solo and min maxing everything and speed running content has just permanently damaged the mmo rpg landscape and design philosophy. the only mmo rpg that ive come across that still holds old mmo rpg values important while being progressive is Final Fantasy XIV. been having a blast grouping with and talking to the community there, they're super active and really nice. they dont mind at all if you're new or a returning veteran they are always willing to help and talk, its honestly really refreshing. an mmo rpg where you can finally take your time, oh and the stories in FFXIV are INCREDIBLE! they're SO good!.
@@laoch5658 Both are extremely important; Without a drive to play a game but still having friends you just jump to a different game to be with them and have a good time, but if you have the drive and no friends then it's only a matter of time until you're lonely in the game and give up on it unless you reaaaally like soloing forever.
The reason I enjoyed MMOs more back in the days is that there wasn't this huge apparatus of online resources surrounding them, and terms like "meta" didn't exist. Your progress and prowess ingame depended more on your own imagination and resourcefulness than your ability to consume walkthroughs and videos on class builds and boss strategies.
Yeah, that's one of the big reasons why "the magic is gone". In the days of old, you'd have to ask other players about not only secrets, but also just regular gameplay features (especially if tutorial sucked, which was quite often the case), and then you could develop your own style and share your wisdom. Now, you're usually kindly directed to a wiki or a youtube tutorial.
@@KubinWielki Right? Remember when it was cool to share some knowledge because you were there before? Or people were nice enough to take you somewhere and show you the ropes a bit. Now it's grind to max level, grind for gear, etc. It's linear with no chance of exploration. The best memories I have from video games are where I can tell a story about how I got into a situation and got out or died.
Availability is never the servant of possibility. You don't have to look anything up if you don't want to, even if it grants other players an advantage. You can still play like a total idiot if that is your solemn choice.
1000%, i find this also with path of exile. ive found that with me and my friends theres a big pressure to just follow an optimal guide that, whilst looking and playing cool, is passive in your development of it. no creativity, no personal touch, just follow the guide and clear as fast as possible.
Yup this is the thing the author imo totally underestimates. I think this invalidates his whole video. The design principles have changed a lot. Games used to be made exclusively by the game developers. These days the marketing departments have more input than the devs. Before this change that was gradual, games were designed for fun. Now they are designed -just like social media- to make you spend as much time as possible, and to to make people buy microtransactions. It is very important to realize that fun is no longer the main goal. Fun is but a tool to help you get addicted at some points. The video author with his emotional take imo was a bit pedantic, and mostly missed the point.
Also the players are trying to find fastest route through the games to the "top tier" "end game content", demolishing the need for low-mid-level questing. Which the companies are doing their best to serve and monetize.
I downloaded the MMO from my heavy gaming years(There's still a few hundred people that play it,) and I was caught off guard by how much it had changed. Basically, all of the things I loved about it we're gone and replaced with "Daily missions" and "Solo friendly content". I even tried playing a legacy server, but that required jumping through so many hoops to get a buggy version of the game I remember, that nobody really even plays.
I downloaded classic wow thought it was gona be so great for a few days it was then it hit me this was made for 2004 era and it should stay there . It didn't have the same magic as where I didn't know what the hell I was doing and the style is so outdated let alone I dont have a whole day like I did when I was younger 🤣
More free time and specifically looking at WoW (my first love MMO), way less RNG-locked progression. Even after I stopped having hours every night to give to the game, I still enjoyed logging on and slowly plugging away at personal goals. Then those personal goals became time-sensitive RNG-based things I may never see the right daily or mob spawn to complete and I just can't care enough.
As I grow older I realize this doesn't just applies to MMOs it applies to single player games as well, I can't tell the last time I had a truly 'magical' experience playing a game like I did when i was younger
I thought about that too, but now that I think for a bit - I really did have intense or emotional experiences playing the following (off the top of my head, but a long read. *TL;DR:* there are still plenty of very high quality and incredibly imaginative games that can very much give you that "magical" experience): God of War reboot (a cinematographic masterpiece and a satisfyingly challenging game). The Witcher 3 (the Ciri story...wow...). Detroit: Become Human (overall choices I made for the story). It Takes Two (co-op with my missis - I've never played a game created with such imagination and attention to detail!). The Wolf Among Us (A visual masterpiece running on a twisted version of the tales of old). Monster Hunter World + Iceborne and Generations Ultimate (lots of co-op with the missis). Mafia 1, 2 & 3 (the stories are just so good and I really like the mafia premise). Bioshock Infinite (The story and just how lifelike Elisabeth felt as an in-game character). DOOM 2016 and Eternal (just badass gameplay at break-neck speeds). Just Cause 3 (surprisingly satisfying progression that allows for more and more grandiose destruction). Kena: Bridge of Spirits (excellent story and tight gameplay). Diablo II Resurrected (this one''s clearly nostalgia xD). HITMAN reboot series (best Hitman games ever, extremely fun to replay and unlock new items). Hades (the story, the music, the writing, the gameplay, the everything... First and ONLY game I've ever got 100% achievements for on Steam)! Prey 2017 (very immersive if you're a stealthy person. Very cool story!). Wolfenstein reboot series (Old Blood / The New Order / The New Colossus - Uber difficulties just feel right!). Valheim (co-op with the missis again. A lot of fun moments spent building a very nice base). Undertale (very unique game). Metroid Dread (I've never played Metroid games, but I tried the demo and liked it a lot. Bought the game and wasn't disappointed!). Diablo III (spent like 400h+ SOMEHOW on the Switch faming seasons and gear for my barbs...). The Legend of Zelda: The Minish Cap (bought some old Game Boy advance games to experience as I've never had one. The Minish Cap is a very clever game that was just the right amount of challenging and intuitive that it was a delight to progress through). Zelda Breath of The Wild (a modern era Zelda game that rewards ingenuity. Like SERIOUSLY - it's very satisfyingly interactive in many ways that aren't even obvious at first to a gamer). Super Mario Odyssey (My first try at a 3D Mario game after getting it as a gift for my Switch. One of those great Nintendo games again). Superliminal (it's a wacky experience that challenges your perception. A technological marvel!). Cyber Hook (I got hooked...). Slay The Spire (I didn't think I was into card games, but this one is very well made and just keeps pulling me back in for more). Beat Saber (it's a VR one, but a total must). BPM (you just can't stop...). Minecraft (lots of co-op and birthdays during covid spent playing with the missis and friends). Terraria (it's actually not at all like a "2D minecraft" and also impressed me just how good it is!). Spyro Reignited Trilogy (I have not played the PS1 originals, so this was a new game for me - a very fun, great quality platformer). Dusk and Ion Fury (probably also somewhat nostalgic by their graphical nature?). And so many more... West of Loathing, the new South Park games, Forza Horizon 4... For me, anyway. Have you tried any of those? Thoughts?
A semi recent one I could think of is 'Hollow Knight'. Not many modern games actually let me recapture that childhood sense of wonder, where you just get lost exploring a beautiful new world. Like not trying to get too serious, but its upcoming sequel is one of the only things I'm looking forward to in life rn. 'Dark Souls 1' is definitely up there as well. You've probably already heard about the combat and lore being good, but the huge interconnected map and focus on unlocking organic shortcuts make the place feel more real. Later titles use disjointed maps you warp between which made it feel too gamey for me to get the same childhood feeling. 'Rain World' left a huge impact on me with its setting and brutal survival mechanics. You play as a mutant animal in a post apocalyptic setting just struggling to find food, shelter, and not be eaten as you uncover more about the past. I literally haven't been able to beat it, but I keep coming back because the world is that immersive. 'Monster Hunter: World' could be a runner up if you haven't played a Monster Hunter game before. Definitely a bigger timesink like 100hr+, which I get not everyone has time for. Older games like Freedom Unite are great too, but World is the most accessible. 'The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild' is good too. I think the big draw for for me is a focus on exploration, so there's a bunch of other Metroidvanias that sort fill that hole. If you've already tried 'Hollow Knight' and want more, maybe try: 'Momodora: Reverie Under the Moonlight' is great, and only like 8hr playtime. 'La-Mulana' this one's brutally difficult and not for everyone, though definitely very rewarding if you're into it. Depending on how much you're willing to look up guides, the playtime can vary wildly. 'Axiom Verge' this plays like a more modern version of the original 'Super Metroid', and does a lot to subvert Metroidvania genre tropes for people that are hyper familiar with the genre like me. Heck, just play 'Super Metroid' or 'Castlevania: Symphony of the Night' if you haven't before. Metroid Dread too.
Single players definitely give a lonely depressive feeling. I believe there are few exceptions though..games like Dark Souls...or this one masterpiece psychopathic gem of a game called Kenshi
Had the same feeling, I really thought I wouldn't enjoy games as I used to anymore. Then I played Elden Ring and it gave me that exact feeling back. You just gotta find the right game, and that's tough with all the dogshit garbage that gets shipped as AAA these days.
I came here expecting someone to confirm my bias against modern mmo's and how they're so watered down or hold your hand the whole way.. but instead got some pretty wholesome feedback and perhaps even an epiphany on why I don't really enjoy mmo's anymore: adulting is hard, makes you an impatient SOB, and takes a lot of your time now.
I used to think I had that problem. But then along came some games that had me right back where I was in my early adult years, among them a rather simple game called Bastion. That made me realize that there was indeed something wrong with the games I play, not with me. It's worth digging for the good stuff, and a lot of games are indeed not as good as "they used to be".
Or maybe your life is better now and MMOs just seem not a fun escape anymore. After all if you have a shit lonely life but on an MMO you are awesome and have friends, you will remember more fondly then when you have a good life and IRL friends then MMO does not need to provide for that relief and they will seem more boring.
@@vincentlee7359 Or you could think there are young people having a shitty childhood. Maybe you could help them while you last. In fact it would help them and you. Just a hint of purpose in life.
@@ItsJustMe0585 Depends... even though my best years of gaming experience were in my High School, I've had some amazing never-before gaming experiences long after graduating. Some games can still catch you, if you let them... and the accessibility of them is much higher than it was in the "olden days". For me it was Space Engineers a year ago... the thrill of being in a ship, in what seemed to be like a scene taken out of startrek, out of fuel, being grabbed by the gravity of the planet... being in the shadow, wihout access to solar, slowly burning the Ice in storage to make new fuel, hoping it would last, slooooowly gainig altitude, hoping the fuel won't run out before we run out of the gravity... We managed to survive, but barely... that was on par with some of the greatest experiences from Azeroth ;) Also the bizzare moments that games like Sea of Thieves can get you into can be as much thrilling, if you have the right company. Don't expect to relive the moments from 10 years ago... but don't give up on making new awesome ones. The good times aren't limited to the past...
For me what changed was the rise of 3rd party voice chat. I always had a wonderful time being my character typing at people but now a days people require you to sit in a voice channel so they can tell you how bad you are at the game before booting you.
This happened to be in Dragon Nest. Carved my way to cap and basically got grilled by a tryhard in a discord chat because I wasn't playing "to the guilds standards" as I just wanted to have fun. I left and really didnt play again.
@@zodiartsstarrothen you wouldn’t have liked old MMOs 😂😂 “playing to the guilds standard” isn’t new. Back in 03 people were saying that. Then they would murder your character which would make you lose yourself and xp
Wow 2006. It was friends. It was the novelty. I was blown away by undercity, like I was TOTALLY lost in Tirisfal Glades. I felt the foggy cold on my skin, I smelled the graveyards, I felt the exhaustion of running around. I LITERALLY explored the Barrens for days. These days are gone.
100% agree. And I disagree with the video because I think that feeling, our feeling of immersion, was a result of the game itself and its design, not the moment in our lives. I'm older, but I still have plenty of free time. The problem is that MMOs feel formulaic, optimized, rote, and focused on scheduled gratification. To use WOW as an example, MMOs have become a math problem on how to keep people subbed, with a carefully timed stream of arbitrarily delayed reward systems, like raid release schedules and mechanics like Renown and Soul Ash caps, Artifact Power and Azerite. Servers have merged into massive faceless millions, instead of the relatively small communities where even normal players could develop a name and reputation. MMOs are very different creatures than they used to be, and it's not something that can be hand-waived away by the fact that I have kids and bills. I can still stay up until 1am playing MMOs. My best memories aren't necessarily from an all-nighter. The games have become corporate, and lost their soul in the process.
One of my best memories of wow is literally just leveling in the barrens on my first character. The world was so vast and there was so much beauty in watching the sunrise over ratchet. Truly an immersive feeling that I haven’t felt since exploring new zones in WoW in wrath and before
I played WoW again for a while a couple of years ago and definitely missed being able to find someone to team up with just by hanging round just outside a dungeon for a few minutes (although back then it worked better than it should have because there were only a couple of players on my server who'd already made it to level 60)
@@quickdudley well, you can. There are social guilds and communities in WoW. Just go, find one that suits you and blast on. You're just trying to find excuses to praise old times and bash new.
I dont hate guilds it just the fact I hate people love me because I dont want them to hurt me in the future. That why I play by myself and only make jokes with the mens..... I just want to be positive all the time but Nostalgia and the negative over take me over time..... Man life is complicated.
@Balkan Rifle No I really think he meant life sucks for a lot of adult people. But if yourself find meaning and maybe hapiness in your new priorities, all the power goes to you obviously. Most people haven't quite figured how to do this yet according to my own observations.
It's the exact opposite for me. I never had friends in the game and I have way more free time now, but it's not fun for me anymore. When my life was shit, Azeroth was a better place to be. My life is infinitely better now and so the game just feels like a treadmill of chores. Thanks for helping me put it into words.
I kinda have both your and his view? I do believe having less time in my lifestyle made me want to play MMOs less, but it's also the c h o r e s. The daily missions specifically are so tiring... It's repeating the same thing, over and over again. That's why I drop most MMOs very quickly, I didn't like the gameplay, how much grinding I had to do, Dragon Nest and DDTank(I don't know if this game counts as MMO) were the only one's that I kept playing for long due to their somewhat unique gameplay, but man repetitiveness grew old. I agree with the video and how social aspect was important for a lot of people, but it's only partially true for me.
Hey I'm Cen from Project 1999. Just wanted to say my experience from the olden days was the enjoyment in fearing the world itself. There is a joy in traveling on an adventure where death has consequences, and leaving the city gates is scary because the monsters out there are strong and will kill you. When you put a team together in town and actually make it to your next destination the thrill is incredible. It's the lack of fear that ruins newer games for me. Fear is exciting.
I hated Borderlands 3 for this same reason. There was no challenge or fear of dying like in BL2. I could just stand and look at some of the bosses in BL3 for quite a while before having to worry about dying. The stupid thing about it was that only after you finish the campaign(~40-50 hours) then you could adjust the difficulty to make it a challenging experience and it immediately became a much more fun game.
I completely agree. Other than fallout 76 not having NPCs, I felt that the experience was addicting at launch because the world was brutal and resources were limited. Now the game is piss easy and sucks even though they added NPCs. Legendaries ruined that game big time.
I went back to project 1999 to play EQ in like 2009 after not liking MMO's for 10 years. Yep, it was better than the modern MMO's of the time. It had nothing to do with nostalgia, free time, or friends. EQ definitely has more challenge and you're afraid to die deep in a dungeon. I played WOW the first month it came out and got to 60 in like 2 weeks solo face tanking mobs with a rogue and never played it again. Death is/was meaningless in MMO's. I honestly don't even know now since I haven't played any in a while except Wildstar for a month or two like 7 years ago.
In the end, all past is worthless. The past is only useful with regards to the future. Your memories help guide your path in your life going forward. I used to miss the past so much. But I've realized that only the present counts. Best of luck to you guys. Realizing our inevitable single directioned passage through time is not an easy cake to swallow.
Man I feel you here I am in the middle of my office working hours, got lunch break, decided to browse UA-cam and this was recommended only to be reminded how old I am now.
My favorite parts of MMOs from childhood (I was aged 9 when I started playing Everquest) was just being lost and immersed in the world. That game had no hand holding at all, online resources were non-existent or scarce, so it was a big, scary, uncharted world, no maps, no markers, with wandering terrifying enemies that scowled at you, ready to attack, but it was incredible to explore. Getting helped by veterans, getting my first platinum piece, exploring Ak'Anon, discovering the Necromancer's guild behind several hidden walls in the sewers of Qeynos.. Riding the boat for the first time and zoning into sea, stopping at an island that was way outside of my league, and going to another city. Joining random groups in the early teen levels and exploring dungeons because you couldn't really survive on your own and it was always dangerous.. Comparing to my experiences in WoW, FFXIV, GW2 leveling & dungeons where, for the most part, you just zip through as fast as possible, solo your way through or group and gather up mobs, AOEing them and healing through all damage with ease. *I still play and enjoy those games immensely,* it's just different and less memorable to me. The slower pace and difficulty is really only found at end-game raiding with a guild that is unfamiliar with content, I still hold memories of raiding in WoW: Legion in 2016 with close friends pretty dear. The exploration and wonderment of EQ back then was incredible, I'll agree it was definitely enhanced by being a child at the time, but I'll disagree that it's the same; times have changed. Modern MMOs are not really scary and VERY, VERY hand-holdy, they're downright afraid of challenging the player until the very end. I kind of wish they would have a self-imposed difficulty slider - let me underlevel myself for a loot boost or something while I'm leveling. Instead the gameplay is to play solo through the slog of unchallenging story quests for dozens of hours in FFXIV, Ark Online, BDO, New World and others. Still, a few modern games, not MMO's, have invoked that childlike exploring and curiosity for me: Outer Wilds, Tunic, and to an extent, Death Stranding. I beat Outer Wilds over a year ago, I'm 32, and I still think of my experiences in that game on almost a weekly basis. It's frustratingly memorable, I'm wishing I could forget it so I could play through again fresh.
I played EverQuest on Project99 for a few months recently and honestly, I did feel some of that magic. I went in with the intention of not reading any wikis or forums, and all the players I met were so friendly! It was always "Oh you don't know where that city is? Follow me, I'll show you!" or "Hey, I see you're taking a lot of damage. Here, try this shield!". I have no idea how the population was like beyond the few areas I saw, but it really felt like the perfect setting for anyone who wants to pretend it's 1999 and jump into an MMO completely blind. Also, it really warms my heart that this is the third mention of Outer Wilds I've seen in this comment section. That game is just so, so wonderful and special.
ME TOO, back then everything was NEW, gaming was new, online was new, online gaming was new, gaming PC's were new, and to first experience that all while everything was new was just AMAZING> And doing it all on Dial up 56k was awesome lol, then upgrading to DLS, EPIC>
The only mistake this video def made is saying it was because life was "Better" and not just accommodating. For many mmo players, they got into their first game because of the exact opposite. Life was terrible for them. Be it lack of friends or fulfilling goals, they needed an escape. Mmos provided all that and then some at the click of a button. Hell, I'm sure we've all met people that can flat out admit their guild mates were at one point the highlight of their days, or their mentors that gave them reasons to live. Now that veteran players have passed the chapter in their life and must look at mmos as video games instead of social portals, is it really a surprise things were just "better" back then.
I remember my first guild, LegendZ, the guild I joined because it was accomodating to newbies back in Dragonball Online, I played it back in 2013 as a 14 and could figure out how to play japanese games without understanding a single word, one of my favourite memories from that game was me and my guild mates getting together for a mock ingame wedding with our guild master and vice master, after that my voice guild leader said since she would play the game less and the guild would probably disband that she would get the members cash items as a last hurrah, I asked if I could a Yardrat Costume as I thought it was both not very expensive and cool looking since I already had sunglasses, Loved that costume after that and I wore it from that point onward after the guild disbanded and until the servers closed but I didn't care I even had old guildmates ask if I wanted to join our friend guild Uprising but I wanted to stay a vagrant, I think I was lv 45 by the time the guild disbanded because after I had gotten to lv 50 and leveling up got harder I decided to hang around low level areas and help new players and low level players, I had a pet that could party teleport as a skill which helped players get to areas for quest since I could teleport and fly at the time so I could bring the practically anywhere but I simply helped them with quests that had them fighting super bosses at the low levels to make it easier for them as i could pull the aggro yet also dodge hits since I was so much higher leveled I continued with this mindset into other games like Digimon Masters online where once I got high enough I would spend my free time logging on just helping people, i like to think I made their day a little better in both games, i don't play mmos much anymore as I just can't get into them anymore but that's fine I'll come back when something calls to me(Blue Protocal)
I know this is an old comment on an old video but what you said resonated a lot. I began playing Guild Wars 2 when life was downright unbearable and it was that escape route and the people I met on there who literally inspired me to keep getting up every single day that made it so much fun. Achieving something together felt meaningful and significant. Now that chapter has long past and I got my life in order, and I can barely enjoy the game. Those people have stopped playing, and I don't feel I get anything out of it anymore.
@@lunahemera6387 Glad you got to share. Might be a bit old but hell, people stumble across these type of videos all the time. You really got no clue how many people will scroll across comments like these and walk away with newfound perspective.
World in constant financial crisis for the last 10 years, global lockdown due to the covid pandemic, even kids today are not as carefree as we used to be, they can't even go out for a walk today without wearing a mask for example. This makes for a very different setting than the one we lived in 10-15 years ago.
He depressed me about the dating talk. I always wondered why other women couldn't interest me like my first. And honestly, I don't even want to date again because I feel like it will never be like the first one I was with. Maybe I'm that way with MMO's too. None have recaptured the magic I had with WoW. I feel like it's foolish to even try. I'm not going to waste time and money on other MMO's (or not even modern WoW).
This is a big true. It’s literally the ability to play uninterrupted for 12-15 hours with 0 responsibilities that allows you to escape and live in the world. Most of us who are older now; wives, children, jobs, homes, etc. You can’t fall into the world as deep when these things are constantly taking you out. As I’m writing this my wife literally asked me to help her do something. I can’t even write a comment lol
ya but our parents fell into those games while raising us our lifestyle hasn't changed inflation has forced us to give up some of our hobbies to stay alive.
100% this! my MMO career now basically boils down to just doing mundane solo things, because I can never get 15 uninterrupted minutes to do any kind of group content.
You are absolutely spot on about the outside lifestyle being the bigger influence. I have gone back to playing the game I left in 2004, Everquest, because I reconnected with someone I played with back then and he enticed me to try it again. I even went back to my old server, Firiona Vie. And, there was a much smaller guild than in the past, but a regular night of grouping if only for a couple hours. We expanded to a couple other grouping nights to fit our schedules and linked up with another diminished guild for a regular grouping session. It rekindled the joy in the game because of the people. I've rolled up new characters as well as dusting off some of the old characters I had (some had gotten a 'bump' to level 85). I have been enjoying playing again, but it much much smaller time blocks than I did years ago. The game has changed, yes, and a lot of the early levels are heaps easier, but it's still possible (as a subscriber) to "level-lock" after you hit 51. The reason for the leveling being faster is a legitimate development decision. The producers of the game want to get players into the new content, the new expansions you pay for. Thus, the time-to-level is to get into the higher levels is roughly the same as it was when the level cap was lower. I'm not sure if the leveling curve is the same on progression servers as it is on 'normal' servers or if they're toned down as well as having content locked until certain marks are hit, either time or population related.
Eh Warhammer online was decent, but really had a bunch of issues with being quite stale. I think another issue was balance, and I think your comment kind of touches on the balance issue.
@@MsHojat Balance wasn't a problem, I had 3 accounts. 1 with all chars maxed out, best gear. 2 with random chars i leveld and deleted over and over again to enjoy t2 and 3 while helping out newbs organizing pvp groups. 3 with t1 twinks fully kitted out. So I have a quite clear understanding of the balance between the factions and classes. And while it never was perfect, it was perfectly serviceable at all times even when people were complaining 247 about supposedly broken classes. Most balance complaints came from people getting outplayed without them noticing. Even the whole faction number imbalance stemmed from people following blindly a few videos/threads proclaiming order as overpowered. So overall quite standard for an mmo. Stale content, well it was a mixed bag with quite a lot stale pve quests that I couldn't agree more but pvp quests and pvp in general I found really entertaining. Sadly mythic put the game on the back burner directly after release and the skeleton crew focused on the wrong priorities, so it never got the content it deserved to have more of.
this literally shows his hypocrisy and stupidity. bikes haven't actually gotten worse. they got better. however, games today have actually gotten worse. dumbed down to fit a wider audience. look at New World from amazon. They promise one thing, then realized it was too niche for profits. So they completely changed their minds and took the game into a new direction. A generic direction. which proves video creator is a moron.
@@ProbablyFilth games are getting worse with being easier like mmo on moblie with auto attack/walking without even trying and buying mount/outfits without grinding for it or adding bots in games like fortnite or coming out with AAA game being broken like fallout 77 , cyberpunk , anthem , WWE 2K20 , Warcraft III: Reforged , Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 5 and so on ....... every decade more AAA Games come out broken
This may hold true for some people but for me its something else. As a kid I was limited to 1 hour of computer time a day and I had no friends, currently as an adult I could dedicate 8-10 hours or more a day to games while stuck inside if I wanted and I have a tight group of friends to play them with but I'm not getting the enjoyment I once had. A huge part of why old MMOs felt so great was because the world was full of mystery. Playing your first MMO as a kid before UA-cam and streaming you didn't know what to expect in this massive world. You were used to playing single player games with maybe the occasional LAN or online if you were lucky. The idea that thousands of other people from around the world were all playing with you was novel for the time. Jumping into an MMO now cant capture that feeling because you have reviews, UA-cam videos and streamers spoiling it for you. You've got all the information and secret about the game one google search away. You know how MMOs work and you've been playing online games for years. The Mystery is gone and it wont come back. Its really sad but at least those of us that experienced it can look back on the memories we made fondly. I feel bad for the newer generations who wont be able to experience things like old MMOs and the old internet.
4 роки тому+4
They can't spoil the game for you if you don't watch the videos.
10000% this. Its the mystery, the adventure, the desire to explore untouched territory. Now every streamer with a prereleased copy launches a full review and easter eggs in 10 secs 10 months before launch date. RUnescape, all you had was the online forums, that you had to UNLOCK to figure out how to do certain quests. World of Warcraft was a completely different beast entirely. Wizard101 was also really good at this, as the only hints you had were on forums. I think we can recapture the MMO landscape if an MMO companies straight up Ban ingame footage on youtube. Therefore, you are stuck only using forums and your brain.
You also have more jerks playing and bullying the noobs when they are trying to learn about the game(s) they are playing and not wanting to rely on wiki or UA-cam. It sucks because the jerks take all the fun out of it. I play Wizard101 and am a high level and even though I am at 115 there are jerks who STILL call me a noob or jump into the battles and try to tell you how to play because they think others are idiots. It's really stupid and idiotic. I help those who need help and am nice to everyone who is respectful. That is how it should be. Play like you are a kid. Not like you are a bossy little jerk.
That feeling you mentioned...returning from school and turning on the old pc... I've been chasing that feeling for the last couple decades... Everything's gone meta now. I just want to pick up the most fun looking weapon I find and then die a hundred times at the first miniboss because I CAN. That's my idea of fun, bumbling around and realizing a week into the game that a ranger doesn't do sword and board. I sincerely feel that this is your most relatable video ever. Almost like a poem by Shane Koyczan.
we look to the future because we want something new that provides a challenge. when you make the same game over and over and never expand upon it, it becomes easy. worse when you simplify a game to make it easy to hit a wider audience. we want to recapture the past by having a game that is a challenge, that presents a fun experience. new games cannot do this. because they aren't fun and they don't present a challenge. worse, give a child today who loves pokemon, the old red/blue version. they will quit saying its too hard. guaranteed. ive seen it plenty of times with family members and friends who have kids. they don't like hard games. so how do you make money when kids today aren't forced into that challenge? you make it easy. which is why today's games suck.
The only way to fully enjoy an MMORPG again is to look at Key Factors: #1 Finding a group of people that keep you coming back to the game. People that you can create awesome new memories. #2 Try to enjoy each game as it is, instead of trying to chase the past. Instead of trying to find ways it's similar to your Old Love....find ways it Differs so it becomes NEW Love. #3 Be realistic about how much time you can realistically devote to said MMORPG. An then look for games that you can speed through (Having a subscription to STar Wars: The Old Republic will get you to Max Level REAL quick). That or find a game where you feel may give you lots of smaller reward, instead of a BIG reward that may take 10+ hours to get into. To know what Epic Fights/Dungeons that you'll have time for or not. #4 Think about what you really want and need from an MMORPG. Are you someone who kept playing fantasy titles, because of your OG MMORPGs, but maybe want to try something free? Do you need a game where you do NOT need to subscribe to have fun, or be FPS without too much of a Fee to Play? Do you want type of people might you want to play with? Try to find all those different variables that makes a game Fun and Fulfilling as well. Both Short AND Long Term.
@@goblinphreak2132 I agree that a lot of AAA games are dumbed down, but there are plenty of games that aren't. Sure, some of 'today's games' suck, but guess what? So did a lot of games 20 years ago. There has never been a shortage of terrible videogames, and I wish people would stop acting like it was some recent development. If you don't like simplified mainstream videogames (which is understandable) then don't play them, its literally that simple. At no point in the history of videogames have you been more spoiled for choice.
As someone who's played MMOs for nearly twenty years - starting in his 30s as a married man with an established career - the biggest change I've seen in the genre is the change from just having fun to chasing the achievements. At its core, MMOs are about cooperation with an online family; when the bar for success is low-to-moderate, you don't have to be picky about who's in that family. Maybe your solid performer won't play without his low-performing wife; in a low-bar scenario, that's okay. But when you're chasing achievements and legendary modes, suddenly, you have to start excluding people and the "clench factor" for those who remain goes up. Instead of relaxing with a few drinks, now you need to be wired and have your shit together. So what happens when you're a hardcore player who suddenly develops age-related disabilities? You're tossed out on the side of the road. "Sorry man, hope you get better, but we can't carry you anymore." That hurts. And it further hurts when you go to a social guild with some moderate success that's constantly losing its best people to progression guilds, because you're little more than a feeder guild. At a point in time, you realize that the sense of belonging and comradery you had has been lost, because of pointless achievements and gear reskins that people think are so important.
Achievements ( as a design system ) are very damaging to the games we play today, especially mmo/virtual worlds type because they ( as well as many other design decisions ) take away yet one more decision from the player - the decision to decide on what is an achievement for me. That is a very big decision, game defining in a sand box type of a game i would say and its taken away by some arbitrary system that tells me what is and what isnt worth doing, its basically a system that tells me what is fun and what is not ... and thats scary. And as you said - it can even spark some toxic situations between players that want to play together.
Spot on I’ve been playing mmos since my mid 20s and I was always working. My best memories are from Everquest and Daoc cause those games make you have to work together. New mmos are single player games with other people in them. The old mechanics are outdated and qol is nice but some of it is just silly and too much.
True. With all the mechanics, different builds, and stuff you have to play MMORPG as your second Job to get ahead. I remember playing Lineage 2 and even though was grindy AF, it was fairly easy and straightforward to play. If you want gear, just logging in once in a while to your clan, play sieges on weekends, and some small raid parties used to be enough to get the gear. Hell, my dad and I got up to grade A equipment (when S was the highest one) all by ourselves in like 3 characters, and we just had fun killing mobs and spoiling them for mats. Now the grind is boring AF, since all you do is repeat the same dungeons hoping RNJesus gives you the piece you are looking for. It's much more fun when you had a "to-do list" to get the item you wanted. Recipe: Check Key Mats: Check A gazillion normal Mats: Check = Profit.
@@Dev003x I agree. I was a raider in wow in top 150 guild at some point. Then the guild disbanded because leadership got bored. Suddenly I was going to guilds with much lower rank and being scapegoated into being "the one who holds progression back" not because I was a bad player, but because every guild I joined had the inner clique who "can do no bad" and outsiders who were assigned the worst jobs and blamed for everything. I tried 3 guilds until I called it quits, seeing the same pattern over and over and again. I tried to be nice, helpful, cooperative, do the "b* jobs" to climb the social ladder, to not avail. I was ditched 3 times after months of loyalty, 2 times at the very last boss of the current raid, which I then killed with another guild proving myself I can do it... but I was sick and tired proving people I'm not a donkey and being told times and times again "yknow you're actually a donkey, bye". My SO quit not so long after, again the guild disbanded due to officer burn out and the saddest farewell people told to the guild was "shame we're disbanding, this was the only guild without people being homophobic, transphobic, women haters, n-word spammers or making anal jokes". Then I realized how low has the bar sunk. I guess I'm too old to mesh with the "cool kids" anymore.
Every MMO ive played in the last few years was just a solo experience with other people running around. I remember playing DDO back in the early 2010s and in every tavern was full of people, all talking in chat and trying to get things going. People were wayyyy more interactive with eachotehr back then and i dont know what changed.
Kelpy G you hit the nail on the head! I completely agree. In addition, I don't think it's a "your life sucks" as Josh seems to constantly hammer home, it's that games are designed significantly differently in that you're the hero now, a God like entity that no longer really requires a group to do things, that interaction has been engineered out of gaming is just sad.
Have you tried playing FFXIV? Things are going on 24/7 here. And I'm not some young first time MMO player. I played Everquest before PoF, when Yakeshas were the end all be all of weapons. You just have to put yourself out there. I mean, ESO actually has people RPing in taverns all over the place, and often.
well, here is mine, well, two of mine, both from swg: first, moving in one of the bus planet, and made the mistake of putting on the master tailor title. the next 30 minutes was almost enough to move 30 meters. got bombarded constantly with requests of cloth. the last guy was in a search of a tailor for a ring, or to be precise, two rings, for an ig wedding, talked about a few minutes, while made the rings and renamed them for the two participants name. when was the last time you bought rings for weddings in an mmo from an other player, and not from an ig irl money using store? Second is similar, someone from a chat asked for bunch of cloth, told him to go to my house (more option with the proper tools and we can trade the items to try on) than for nearly 30 minute, he try various cloth, asks for ideas and combos for colors and designs, literally like an actual shopping, it was an almost true rpg event, not just a bs-ing for best armor stat and moving on.When was the last time you went on shopping useless items to look cool, not from the ig irl money using store, but from an other player.
Oh, man, you brought tears to my eyes when you were describing the joy of playing in early childhood, jumping into bed when the sun rises through window and you realize that is already morning and you have 2 hours of sleep before school. It hit me with memories of almost 20 years ago, me and my guild playing Ragnarok Online.
Nah, I have more friends now than back then when I was lonely as hell and depressed, yet I am not having fun now, especially not while playing with my friends who just focus on doing checklists and stupid mobile game-like chores. But you are right, its not the game. Not me either. Its the way we play these games. We watch Twitch and UA-cam videos about the game, absorb all the info and perfect strats, and then just work on "finishing" the game. Back then, when you played Everquest, you were lost. We can't go back to that time, information is thrown at us and you can't escape it, and games are designed now around you having absorbed all this info anyway. Thats why to this day the most fun you will have with a MMORPG is on launch day for the first few hours before everyone figured everything out already. You can still relive those glory days.. . For about 5 hours on a game's launch. After that, you go on UA-cam, you go on Twitch, you go on Discord and its information overload, no more secrets, no more thinking required, just do what this dude or that guide say, check off the tasks, and thats it. And even if YOU ignore that stuff, your friends and 90% of the playerbase won't, so it still affects you. When you join a group to finish a dungeon, you better already know everything in that dungeon or the group will hate you. No social interaction required, its all about efficiency. And that's why MMORPGs are your part time jobs now, not games.
THANK GOD. FINALLY. IVE BEEN SAYING THIS AND MORE FOR YEARS. THANK GOD SOMEONE FINALLY GETS IT. There is even more to what you say, trust me. You are correct though.
@@AvgiEfexis You clearly dont understand then. Its a community game. Sure, it may help with his personal experience just slightly, but it makes a huge difference when the whole population is fixated on knowing and doing things perfectly and getting to end-game as fast as possible. Take Classic WoW for example, in some guilds they FORCED you to get world buffs to raid or you'd either get kicked from the raid or even the guild. Didn't use DeadlyBossMods? Better to fill that slot with someone who has it. Didn't use questie to level up as fast as possible? Then, "you're playing the game wrong". No matter what way you look at it, being bombarded with information is the WORST thing you can do to an MMO community.
@@poisonated7467 maybe i play mmo differently than most people, i casually play them with my friends, my knowledge came from them telling me personally and vice versa, we don't really watch or read guides and strats to be perfect, bcs it feels more like a chore than having fun, we don't really play to be the top, we just.. idk having fun exploring together. i guess your perspective about how to play mmo and friend group that you play with matters too. at the end of the day, some people like the current state mmorpg and some people don't, and that's fine, just enjoy it our own way.
@@AvgiEfexis I would encourage you to go try the private server Project 1999 for Everquest then. I think it will change your mind on MMOs, but besides that P99 recaptured my love for MMOs after playing WoW for 15 years. WoW was my first and favorite MMO. P99 EQ took that spot within two weeks of playing it. It taught me a TON about MMO game design and game design in general. Oh, and bring some friends along because the world of Norrath isn't so forgiving. =)
To a certain extent, I agree that older games are not necessarily "better" games. However, the argument that this is because of changes in our individual lives is not accurate either. As others have pointed out, some people actually have more free time now than they did when playing the old school MMO of their choice back in the day. In my opinion, the problem with MMOs is largely tied to a greater cultural shift that has occurred beyond gaming. The entire world is increasingly about instant gratification. The focus is on the destination, not the journey. The MMOs of 20 years ago reflected a different time in our entire culture, in which the internet was still relatively new and everything occurred at a far slower pace (again, not just talking about video games here). I believe that the reason people feel so passionate and nostalgic for those early MMOs is because they represent a unique period in human history; the internet was now something stable and prevalent enough that we could play in persistent online worlds with hundreds or thousands of other people, but the internet culture had not yet become the cynical tool that it is today. So yes, I also long for the old days of MMOs. I fondly remember logging in just to explore a random part of the world or to hang out in town with friends. We *existed* in these early online gaming worlds in a way that we do not now. This, I believe, is the core of the nostalgia people feel for those games. They weren't just "games". So yes, the modern MMOs may objectively be better "games", but they cannot hold a candle to the experience of existing in a living, breathing fantasy world.
Many years have past..................but, I STILL remember the quintessential moment in gaming: Warcraft, some 10 years ago. The scene, a dungeon run. A group of hardcore players, talking in game about the challenging run to be made and.................wait for it.................. here comes "Leeroy Jenkins" !!!!!
@@SephirusOakborn retrowave!!! i love soo much synth! my lately years get a eletronic music to pure synth retro vapor waves styles... is much more fun than the new shithole outthere
My husband and I started playing mmo’s in our 30’s. We had full time jobs, a child, our own home, dogs, a cat and even a horse. Lots of responsibilities. We started playing WoW with our son in 2005 and the magic of that game pulled us in just as it did those of you who were younger without all those responsibilities. So it’s not solely due to age/level of outside responsibilities! We still play mmo’s today, but I agree the magic of those early days is gone.
I started playing video games back in the early 80's. In college I really got into MUD's. I use to run a BBS and had turn based games people could play against each other. Everything was so new and exciting. Today that newness is gone. Do not get me wrong, I love playing games like Black Desert Online, Guild Wars 2, The Elder Scrolls, etc - but they are all kind of the same. Been there done that. Shoot, I remember when playing my Sublogic Flight sim on my TRS-80 was so exciting with its 5 FPS and maybe 100 x 100 resolution in the stunning color of white on black. Man, that was sooo fun.
UO, EQ, AO, AC, The Realm, Meridian 59 ALL Came out during a time when talking to people on the internet was a new and exciting thing. We may have grown up and have busy lives now but the entire sociology of interacting with people on the internet has changed and the strata of that is something MMOs fall under.
This so much. People tend to point at the lack of social interactions in modern MMOs, or the microtransactions, or the "dumbing down" of the game, and sure each of those are factors along with many other in-game things, but the biggest factor that goes under the hood is internet culture in general... Online culture has changed DRASTICALLY over the last 10 to 15 years, and the early MMO's all flourished when online culture, and especially gaming culture, was a lot less min-maxy, a lot less toxic (still toxic but not as much), and in general just a more chill mindset...
I agree, the possibilities of the internet and online gaming were new to me. I got my first internet provider for Diablo 1, and I can remember my excitement to be able to chat with people from all around the world for the first time. Today I'm used to it. As for the genre of MMO, I've kind of seen it. It was new, it was fun, but it got boring after a few 1000 hours. I moved on. I still enjoy playing online with my friends, but I don't need a giantic community to communicate with.
That is such great point. I was about 11 years old when EQ came out, and I distinctly remember it being one of the very first things I ever did on the internet. In fact online gaming is what made the whole concept of having internet make sense to me. There wasn't a lot to do on the world wide web for a kid in the 90s. I had just recently been introduced to the AOL Instant Messenger, so you can imagine that firing up EQ and being able to instantly communicate with other people's avatars IN A VIRTUAL WORLD blew my mind. I have no doubt that this greatly amplified my enjoyment.
Every PVE MMO got worse after competition between the players appears. Gearscore, ratings, statistics, damage meters, ratios, first kills, greed for best gear etc..
I really love this video. My favourite part is where you mention being honest with yourself and making changes to your life. It reminds me of when I first started seeing a therapist several years ago and started talking about how I felt about myself and my life. When you are not happy with yourself, it will leak through every aspect of your life including how you feel about video games. It's very difficult to find enjoyment in anything if your motivation is to distract yourself from your personal problems and jumping from one thing to another looking for the "best" distraction. I've done a lot of work on myself to develop a healthy self-esteem and to create a life for myself that I am happy with, and from that I find that I have more fun playing video games nowadays than I did in the past. It's definitely true that your lifestyle plays a huge role! There's too many games to choose from that it can't be possible that they are all bad. Good video - reminds me how much better my life is now and how that carries over to everything including the video games I play :)
I realized that I enjoy games more when I stopped looking at trailers/leaks. My initial love of MMORPGS came from the sense of discovery. Many games these days are "ruined" because most of the playerbase knows the entire game before they even play it.
Yea that mentality kinda drove me out of enjoying many mmo too... Want to tackle some new content? just a few minutes after someone declares that someone else comes arround with a guide how to beat that content... not to mention to constantly getting told off for not playing "optimized".... Personal player knowledge becomes worthless as long as it is not considered top of the world class as everyone has easy access to pretty much all info they need through some streamer or guide maker, making the only apreciated skills come down to reaction speed and being good at following guides/orders.... I still have fun like i had in the past in a selected few games.... but not cause the games are exactly good but cause i found likeminded players who stay away from all out of game info sources like they are some sort of plague, bringing back the experience of discovery and diverse guild roles
Not everyone was a teenager when MMO's first came out, and not everyone is looking through rose-coloured spectacles. That's a massive over-simplification. I enjoy many aspects of newer mmo's but there's a lot to be said for the immersive slowburn nature of older mmo's.
This... while watching this video all I could think of was "There were a ton of middle-aged guys in classic WoW... People past their prime just like some of us are now." If the true reason was indeed our life, then this exact same argument would be valid for EVERY SINGLE MEDIUM OF ENTERTAINMENT.
Exactly. I came into RPGs with Neverwinter Nights back in the day and love D&D. Everquest 2 was my first MMO and I started playing it a few months after launch after having watched my daughter play. I was in my 40s then, and I still play it from time to time because after being away for a while I start to miss it. It's not just nostalgia, I love the class system and the complexity of the gameplay. You actually have to think and not just spam abilities. (sadly the game has been dumbed down over the years and is no longer the same as it was in the start, but still fun) What I don't like about many of the newer MMOs is the "pick any ability and play how you want" type of gameplay. Still, I have enjoyed some of them, like RIFT. Guild Wars 2 is quite fun for a while too, but then I get bored. Something is lacking, and I'm not sure what.
Yeah. Saying "People do not enjoy *genre*, because they do not have time" is the same as "people do not play games/do not read books, because they lack time"
@@gegamst7323 One of the biggest ones for me is the ability to completely respec/rebuild your character in most MMO's(RPG's in general?) How can you develop love or hate for your choice of build if you're evicted from a group/dungeon etc because you're not the FOTM efficiency build and can't even make the case to other people in the game. It was one of the things that spoiled D3 for me, why replay what you've already sampled and don't really care about.
@@MahBones This hurts... I pride myself on being fairly quick to figure out more optimal playstyles. Often times when I look up what's efficient, I find out i've been doing that very thing already apart from maybe a small choice here or there, which are actually more efficient for ME because they cater to my playstyle better. So I'm usually not the target of this sort of shit. BUT, when people tell others what spells to use, what talents/perks to choose, what gear to grind for, it REAL:LY breaks the feel that an mmo is supposed to give you... It sucks! I often defend another right to figure it out for themselves, even when they've already been kicked or banned from group/guild, and I've been banned from multiple guilds in multiple games for defending them as such...
I was in love with Classic WoW, because it was the first MMO I played - and I played it on Christmas when I was 12 years old. After that christmas my parents broke up and my family has been broken. I am 27 years old, when I see the Dwarf starting zone, I can almost feel the warm loving feeling of family. Coldridge Valley is a time capsule that has captured a moment in time, a specific memory from my childhood - when everything was perfect. I only made it until level 40 before my parents broke up. And I've realized everytime I pickup Classic WoW, i start getting bored and losing interest around level 40... I don't do it on purpose, it just naturally happens.
This really hit me. I think as men internalize mental anguish and it comes out in odd ways like you described. I just wanted you to know that this story made me feel, and I hope you find happiness.
For sure. I can still conjure that same feeling when thinking of playing vanilla almost 20 years ago. However when I boot up Classic I feel nothing but boredom.
Life is crazy in so many unexpected ways brother, keep the fire burning. Age is just a number, don't get caught with the things that this society is pushing in our face.
I'll never forget the feeling I had when I played my first MMO. Everything felt so new, the possibilities felt endless and magical and making friends in it was super cool. I spent a long time after the magic wore off trying to find the next thing that could capture the sense of wonder and excitement that game first gave me (though never did quit the first) and it just never existed. It took a lot of games to finally realize that I really WON'T be able to have that first experience again, because being the first was what made it special. The closest I've come to replicating that experience was when I finally got into FFXIV and made tons of new friends and saw similar world building and map designs to the ones that had captured my interest in the first place. I think once you come to accept that it's a LOT easier to actually have fun and get into what they offer now, as opposed to chasing old ghosts that just can't be re-created. Great vid!
I'm about to start my first mmo. I am a console player and I only love campaign games. I usually play games for their story. But I want to give multiplayer like mmos a chance cause they look awesome. Please can you recommend fun one that have friendly people on it.
@@Alex_M.R92 Guild Wars 2 has a lot of focus on story, very friendly and helpful players, and a wide variety of content. The base game is free to play, so if you don't like it, at least you didn't waste any money, but if you do like it, the expansions are reasonably priced.
To me, there are 2 things that killed MMO's. 1 - Group finders and cross server grouping. That alone, imho, killed the server communities. while it maximize the time you are playing, when you join a group, no one talks for the most part. Back then, since the rest of your group was on the same server, you'd chat because we shared the same world. you built relationships. it made it so you were involved as much in the game as in the community. 2 - The advent of discord. I love discord, but the last few times i tried wow, basically the guild was more or less a guild since people formed groups and used discord to chat making the guild chat pretty much dead. it's not the only reason, nor is it universal, but it did have an adverse effect in that regard.
Most mmorpgs suck. When WoW was at its peak, all competition was mediocre. Now WoW is still on top, but it is run by corporate shills who don't care about consumer satisfaction, but rather how to best ride the fine line of people barely purchasing the product instead of long term player retention. Discord didn't kill guild chat, Blizzard did. The game has been devoid of community since mid cata, and had been getting worse. Discord at least provided an outlet for those who wanted 'something'. Bottom line is that Blizzard had and still has the power to design the game differently, but they wont.
I agree with #1. Especially in WoW the normal dungeons during leveling are either way to easy or you run them like 5 bln times already, so people expect you to know what you're doing and do it as quick as possible. It usually takes 10 minutes to run this dungeon with no deaths, so everything else is someone elses fault. Unfortunatly that translates to raiding as well..everything besides the last raid is "child's play" and shouldn't be hard at all. I remember, when I tried to come back for Cataclysm and wanted to join a lower tier raid, all groups demanded gear from the next two raid-tiers.
My wife and I got married in WoW the week after we did irl. Our guild did it in a raid night, even awarding DKP (was during classic) if you showed up dressed properly and such. The raid leader even had us line up and stuff and read our vows, like a real wedding. I'll never forget that!
@ISCARI0T its not cringe at all. Let people enjoy things! I've been to multiple in game weddings in many games and its quite fun! If it makes them happy, let them be!
I remember when I played Everquest and they came out with the "Legacy" servers. The idea was that you'd play through the content from scratch, much like what WoW is doing with the classic servers. The primer/press release said something very poignant. "These servers are set up to give players new to the game the chance to experience the content in a way that's new to them but that hooked so many players into our world. Though, we know these servers are anticipated by the older player base, please be aware that you will likely not relive the experience you first had in Everquest. Much like you can't relive your first kiss..." I am likely butchering the quote and am paraphrasing from a memory that's around 13 years old, at a guess. It really struck me how accurate the sentiment was. "You can't relive your first kiss." You can kiss the same lips but you can't have that butterfly, nervous, scared, hopeful, excited, anticipation again. You can't understand something and learn it at the same time. (Not usually anyway.) That feeling of conquering the game from scratch is something so important. To set a personal goal for yourself, 'I want to be this and have that and do these things and join that group and...." and then meet it or exceed it. That starting out of "Where do I go? How do I do that? What should I do? That thing killed me!? That item dropped?!!" and all the rest *is* the experience. It is the distillment of fun. The people you'll meet and befriend or hate. The love you'll fall into with the world, the character, the players, and the whole. It can't be recaptured. I fully agree that the world you live in outside of the world you play it is so, so important. I still remember the joys of playing Everquest with my friends. The coming home from college or work and playing until I should have been in bed hours prior. The ISP kicking me off every night at the same time for about 15 minutes while they cleared out their cache. The hours spent on Alahkazam (I never did memorize how to spell that URL). There is just so much to list. Those moments of elation when I got something awesome. (I used to play on the Test Server. I still count the night I had a Developer give my dual-boxed characters the titles "Fiction the Sinful (The rogue) and Salvint the Sinless (The cleric)" as one of the most amazing nights of my life. I was shaking in tears happy. I know that's lame to a whole lot of people but to me, in that moment, I was infinite. (To quote PoBaWF) (I actually had their names changed to "Fiction the Myth" and "Salvint the Savior" for RP reasons that I won't go into because that's even more embarrassing.) Those little events where you checked a box that many dream of checking but never do are what makes the game. Having it be difficult or rare can make the experience more impactful, for certain, but there's so much more to it. Having those around you who appreciate your excitement and joy. Those who helped you gain those things that made you so happy. Having the time and lacking distractions to really dive into things. All of it, all of it together makes for the magic. The magic that, sadly, most of us will never recapture. Though to throw out a couple quotes... "Don't be sad that it's over, be glad that it happened at all." "A man never enters the same river twice. For it is not the same river and he is not the same man..." May all of your gaming and real-life experiences be as magical as you wish them to be!
One of the biggest problems in MMOs today - you're playing them alone. Social people who still manage to make friends in games, despite modern design not being conducive to that, are the ones still enjoying themselves. I used to make tons of friends in MMOs, but after playing final fantasy 14 for over a year I made like one acquaintance. However, I've made a dozen friends just from chatting with people in post-match chat in Brawlhalla; people who then want to play other games with me. I'm the same guy with the same lifestyle, so it's a hard sell that it's me and not how MMOs are now. Dungeon finder groups with randos who treat you like an NPC that you never see again after the dungeon is over is NOT how it used to be, and I firmly believe it's killing the social experience of the MMO; which is the most memorable and emotional element of them. I'm not sure why people are so intent on minimizing or dismissing that reality.
I remember FFXIV before dungeon finder was implemented. It hollowed out all of my enjoyment of the game. Can't get a group of people together to do anything because everyone is using the finder. I gave up on it after heavensgard because if I wanted to play a single player game I can go play single player games. Which is what I have done.
Preach brother! It's not that we have less time, it's that everyone around seems to be in a hurry to do their stuff as efficient as possible, making friends is harder when people have the "less talking more killing" mindset. I got scolded several times in group content because I took few seconds pause to type a reply to a whisper, guild message or party message... "Go already, what are you waiting for" etc.
I used to play SWG and to travel to another planet you had to take a shuttle. Well, that shuttle have a 10 minute wait between them so if you ran up as the shuttle was leaving, you had a 10 minute wait for the next one. I met several of my now lifetime friends just standing there waiting on the damn bus! SLOW DOWN!
@@ivylilybasket Yeah, I agree completely - they actually put downtime in games in the past SO people would have a chance to socialize, and while it may have been too much in some games.. I think it was definitely important to the social experience.
This is the #1 reason modern MMOs aren't as good. Dungeon finder killed WoW too, and the trend today is toward solo and instanced content almost exclusively. People are divided into little social ghettos that never interact with each other and which aren't visible in the world itself. It's always really depressing to me that a game called "Guild Wars 2" has no guild wars, or really any guild interaction at all.
I gotta say the one thing I miss about older MMORPGs, that you see a lot less now, is the ability for all players at all levels of the game to be involved. Take Ultima or Ragnarok Online, for instance. As a low-level player I couldn't join end-game dungeons, sure. But I could still gather useful resources, and sell them to higher level players to make my money. I would still be wanted in guilds because gathering resources and money and selling stuff at the market and so forth were all very valuable, communal tasks that even a newbie can assist with. I would help my clans win clan battles by sitting back home making healing potions or whatever. You had many ways to participate and progress. My problem with MMORPGs now is how many have the "theme park" experience like you described in other videos. Where you are experiencing the exact same SOLO gameplay as everybody else, killing the same number of random animals for the same quest NPC, and there's no robust market or other features in the game to keep your attention. You are just on a slog from level 1 to level 100 so you can finally join the end-game raids. It's like the only gameplay exists at the end of the game, and new players are just time-gated. Can't enjoy the "real game" until you grind for three months!
Josh, i have to agree. My life is forever changed in a way that i’ll never have the free time i used to. We also though have to talk about how when i play new MMO’s even with friends somehow i’m never in a position where i need help. You need to go somewhere? Fast travel! You need to do a dungeon? Dungeon finder. These games are losing what made them multiplayer. Needing help meant reaching out. Reaching out meant players could dedicate, hell, even roleplay being a mentor to other players who didn’t know or didn’t have the resources. I want to play a Massive Multiplayer Online game, not a Massive Online game.
... that's true. It's what draws me to where I play now. You have to have help when starting, and now I- a more experienced and settled player- can reach out and give them starting supplies and guidance. Similarly, I may not know about some feature, and I have to ask about it.
I feel like sandbox games like Ark or even Minecraft have a lot of systems of relying on a community more than any current MMO will ever give you. I cannot count how many times my friends were in trouble for dying with lots of valuables with them and had other friends help them get it all back.
@@MahalGC I have to agree. I have found memories of Ark, I just don't have the time to play it as I can't login everyday. I'm playing Albion Online, another sandbox game. I do different things everyday, one day I level up my gear, the other I gather, sometimes I just craft and sell materials in different cities, etc. There's little to no fast travel, there's a group finder for the starter island, which is not very used, however for the rest of the game you need to rely on your guild/alliance. It's also full loot combat for the most part. I'm having fun playing it even tho I don't really enjoy top-down games
I was less or not at all depressed 10 years ago so that was probably the case, was easier to socialize with people, now its hard to even say "hi" to stranger in the game.
With you on that, even when I try to join a guild and make an attempt to talk to everyone, the motivation quickly fades when that voice in the back of your head keeps going "you'll never fit in with them, they're just nice to everyone they dont actually care" or or crap like that. Though I recommend you keep trying. If you find a game you really want to sink some time in, look for a guild and just join and see what happens. Keep guild chat open, partake in their events, post on any social media they have, etc. And if it doesnt work out, whatever, try joining another. Hope you find that one group that are so great, you'll forget your anxiety and start talking without even realizing. Good luck.
Sad but true, I play WoW solo, even if I joined a guild monts ago. No voice chat no raids, just random solo stuff that I can do in any other non MMO single player game.
I tend to agree that it has little to do with free time (For me). The secret is accepting you won't recapture that feeling because it never really existed. As "Time" has passed we've assigned and reworked our memories. I've noticed things from 5 years ago are now starting to have that tinge of nostalgia to them but I can honestly look back and say "You are looking at this from rose tinted glasses". As some of us get older we are able to see so much more and it's terrifying. I think we all believed we would just stay raiding MC forever. Or that song at a concert would never end. The love we had for someone would never fade. We are starting to understand how our elders felt and feel as the world has already passed them by just as it will for us. Enough rambling. The point I guess...... Enjoy everyday to the fullest as you will likely look back years from now with that same expression. "Those were the good ole days".
Hmm exactly! Memories are constructed. Some of my favorite gaming memories are from when ARK just came out and we grinded like 100 hours in a week and had a huge base and dominated the server. My mind tells me I had the most fun I've ever had during that time, but in reality 80 of the 100 hours were spent grinding stone or metal, which was really tiring.
Yeah I think part of it is us reworking our memories, but a part of that feeling is form dopamine dumps in our system from the game and social interactions. The more these dumps happen the more the amount of receptors change in our system meaning we have more and more trouble achieving that initial high.
@Matthew Adams " As some of us get older we are able to see so much more and it's terrifying. I think we all believed we would just stay raiding MC forever. Or that song at a concert would never end. The love we had for someone would never fade. We are starting to understand how our elders felt and feel as the world has already passed them by just as it will for us." Damn, This is one of the most depressing things I've heard about life. And as someone who likes his depression, I thank you both for the depressing and for the insightful part of it.
I was 11 when I played my first mmo. It was new, exciting! I thought I was the coolest guy with all my gear. Life was simpler back then too, i was care free. Those times are gone. Im not saying that I don’t enjoy mmo’s anymore, but as an adult, it just doesn’t hit like that anymore.
I think there is a simple explaination for this: Younger people are more impressionable. When i was a kid or teen, i was satisfied like with the oldest version of Mario. If i had to play it now i would fall asleep how simple it is, despite still liking 2d platformer games.
I'm an "older gamer" and it isn't my opinion that the games aren't as much fun. For me personally it is the community, having to deal with endless trolling, griefing, etc. As an older gamer I am naturally slower and really don't enjoy things like PvP. So there you go... my opinion only.
What killed it for me is the "meta comp" and "flavour of the month" obsession in the community no matter where I go... In the ye olde times nobody knew what was optimal and everyone went with the flow, while nowadays even on a semi-casual level people copy "top streamer strats" and stuff.
@@ivylilybasket true, this killled Retail WoW for me. Switched to Classic WoW, even when its not like back then. but the classic community is a lot more friendly than in retail.
I'm almost a year late to this video, but I'd like to add that it's harder for me to get immersed in games as I get older. I'm almost 30 years old, and I'm very aware that the game I'm playing is a product with successes and shortcomings. I'll consciously recognize and applaud the excellent soundtrack, but I'll also acknowledge the limited gameplay mechanics and - ever aware of my mortality and valuable, limited time - decide if the game is worth investing my precious minutes and hours. I remember being a kid in the 2000s and feeling completely immersed and awestruck in the worlds of Fable and TES: Oblivion and early WoW, but that feeling is incredibly rare now - nigh unobtainable. Adult me will never again be hyped about a game like teenage me was about Mass Effect 1 or Halo 2. Games are still fun, but they're more like going to a carnival or amusement park instead of disappearing to another world with endless possibilities. And maybe now that I regularly play D&D I'm a bit spoiled by the *actual* endless possibilities in TTRPGs compared to the limits of video games.
The problem I'm having with newer MMO's is that the character I'm playing doesn't feel like MY character. In the sense that character "creation" in MMOs pretty much just means choosing a name for one of several already-made characters (maybe choose a color or two), followed by an overly-specific heroic storyline that singles out your character's place in the world despite being the same as every other player's. This did not used to be the norm. The problem is devs are creating MMOs as though they're single-player story-driven games, but with everyone playing them in the same room. Imagine if God of War were exactly the same, except you saw other Kratoses going through the stage at the same time as you.
How's that older MMOs had more special characters? same reason as the video, because people spent way too much time in the game forming communities and reputations, nowadays, that's replaced by having more knowledge about the game and switching the in game celebrities to other characters like streamers
@@ZXMirakuru it's not that older mmos had more special characters, it's that they had more personal characters, even if bland at face-value. And a big part of that is the devs not imposing that identity on player characters, but rather leaving that in the hands of players. The idea that characters should be special is, if anything, part of the problem with newer MMOs. A good example of this issue is in Black Desert Online, a game that was hyped for it's deep character creation. No matter how many options and sliders you had, the devs had still decided that the Tamer was a petit Asian girl, the Archer was a youthful Celtic-looking man, etc... The dev's ideas of WHO these characters are. Their identifying traits and demeanor, preselected for each character type by the developers, not up to the player. And while it might seem like that's just "one MMO", I repeat that it's an MMO that was hyped on deep character customization. More often than not, when I try out a newer MMO the character creation is really just "character selection". Which of course reflects on the in-game population, just identical clones of the same cast of characters with one or two being particularly more used than others. It doesn't make the game-world actually seem populated in any sense, nor does it make the player character seem like they have any consistent place in it. You're just the "brawler" character, and that guy over there is also just the "brawler" but a few levels further in than you are. Again, this didn't used to be the norm, and really comes off like the design elements of a single-player design approach made arbitrarily "mmo". Like suit-and-tie devs jumped into the genre without knowing the difference in appeal, prioritizing "cool heroes and epic stories" as opposed to many-player interaction in a wide-open world.
@@Augenstein you have a point here, they are massive multiplayer, but not 'roleplaying' as your character's personality is already defined by the devs.
@@pbonfanti You ARE your character's personality. That is pretty much the only meaningful variable between two players of the same or similar race/class combo and lvl.
I agree that games were more enjoyable when we had less responsibilities and more time. Also after thousands of hours playing MMOs they are not as novel as they once were. However, after trying classic wow I think old MMOs are better because they were designed to be social. New MMOs focus on long single player campaigns to unlock social/group play (lfg is a group technically, but hardly social), and I play MMOs for the people more than the story. I can't speak for everyone, but I spent 90% of my time in classic wow in a group, but 90% of my time in retail wow playing solo.
because our free time was less valuable to us back then. it's more valuable now, so now it's even moreso each of our responsibilities to choose how we spend our time in game
@@artt8381 eve is garbage. I guess it would appeal to someone with OCD that likes having exactly 7 buttons to press, once every 15-20 minutes or so. The gameplay itself is garbage though. I signed up for a year based on its hype back when it was 3 years old, and I couldn't believe people enjoyed that nonsense, but I stuck with it hoping it would get better, but it doesn't. The game play loop of eve is just horrible.
Exactly, best MMO moment was 5 or so guildies camping the entrance to Molten Core in WOW, slaughtering all raiders coming in dribs and drabs, then calling in our mates when they started to organise, hilarious and far more entertaining than running the dungeon.
I played Dungeons and Dragons Online for years. It was the best MMO I ever played. The gameplay was fun, the characters were great, and there was no shortage of things to do....even when you were grinding. At some point, they added Raids. You had to have a high end gaming computer and know the one strategy to beat the boss. The loot that you could grind from Raids became essential, but it was hard for "casuals" to play at that level. It destroyed that game for me and many others. There are a hundred other factors, but Raids were the big thing that really ruined that game for me and my guildmates.
Early MMOs were honest experiences designed for fun. Then they learned that for player retention they had to remove the fun and replace it with repetition and content gating.
Exactly. The design was different their goal was not the same as it is today. Now if someone creates a mmo the whole idea is for it to be MASSIVE and have millions of people playing. If that doesn't happen it shuts down. Also I very much agree with the repetition and content gating. Just logging into a mmo nowadays is basically to do daily chores. These things didn't exist back when I played the first generation mmos. We logged in to have FUN not to do chores.
My intro into MMO was when my buddy demanded that I join him in Everquest's first expansion, "The Ruins of Kunark". I'm 7 years married at this point with 3 kids and a good job (firefighter/paramedic). With a fireman's schedule, I had 2 days between shifts that I could dive into Everquest. 24hr on, 48hr off. EQ was brutal at the time. There wasn't the expansive internet presence of ALL of the things that you can do so the two of us just ran around n00bing it up! There were tons of people in the starting city of Qeynos killing all manner of skeletons, spiders, and the always fun named mob Fippy Darkpaw. I have 2 very very fond memories... (maybe 3) But the 1st is, at level 10, my friend and I decided that we didn't want to hang out at Qeynos anymore. We wanted to go to Freeport. We didn't have the silver to have a wizard teleport us there so... we ran! We ran from Qeynos to Freeport. At that level, everything between each zone was high enough to kill us. It was a heart pounding run for our lives with a few death and corpse retrievals, but we eventually made it. We were both so proud of ourselves! 2nd memory is the Castle Mistmoore zone. The entrance was where those who were just high enough to enter the zone would camp and pull mobs to the entrance where they would get killed. There was always tons of corpses there as, invariably, some group deeper in the zone would get overwhelmed and run to the zone entrance /yell ing "TRAAAAIN!" Which meant to clear out the entrance, a giant group of pissed off mobs are coming. Good times! I suppose the 3rd fond memory was, my 2 year old decided he was bored and pushed the screen out of the window and go for a walk a few houses down while I was EQing... yeah... An annoying knock at the door, to my surprise, was my neighbor holding my kid! "Why do you have my son?!" "Because he was walking around outside of my house....." ---- .... sooo... "Fond" memory of my 11 year old daughter ratting me out when momma got home from work. "DAD LOST JACK TODAY!" So EQ almost got me divorced.. luckily still happily married. Yikes! This turned out longer than anticipated. These days, I just can't sink the time into MMO's (I was deep into WoW for several years). I have more fun with roguelike games.
Some of my favorite memories was training spectres to the beach in Oasis with my Enchanter lol. Running through Dalnir with my same level buddy Enchanter. I had a druid who would come to me for Clarity whenever I asked and would give me SoW. I think I did have more fun with WoW. I was one of the first Grand Marshal Hunters...That almost got me divorced....but yes...Those were the good times lol.
Was there another game like Ever Quest where you could PVP and loot players' gear that may have taken them real-time weeks to obtain? My best memories of EQ were rolling the dice in a PVP engagement and risking it all!
Classical Everquest was indeed a most memorable time which I consider myself lucky to have experienced, especially as it was then also a fresh genre; that's something that can never be repeated again, ever.
I have a philosophy that states "Knowledge kills magic." Think about the first time you saw popcorn pop, the first time you had sex, and the first time you played a MMORPG. Now fast forward to where you've done all the above over 100 times. You know more about science and how microwaves work. You've seen nudity a lot and your libido is not as high. And you know a lot more about MMORPGs to the point where you already know how to play MMORPGs that aren't even released yet simply because many mechanics you already know carries over. Not only that, knowledge opens up the choice to be efficient.
I agree. I would say "comparison is a killer of joy". When you played your first MMO or had a sex you cannot compare to anything in your life. It is such a new exciting thing that your brain is pumping dopamine like mad. It will never give you the same dopamine rush next time. Never ever. The old people are usually miserable and tired because they can compare anything they are doing now to past memories. Thats why we all have to die in the end. The life would become hell if we didn't.
@@AverageJoe3 Yup that is true. Sure, a MMO you've never played might have new specifics but the basics usually don't change. You know you're going to create and customize a character, gain experience, gain levels, use abilities, kill monsters, kill other players, talk to other players, join clans, do quests, optimize strategies, etc. All of these things aren't new to us anymore.
I wouldn't say it's about knowledge itself, it's that your brain rewards you for learning things. Games where you keep learning new stuff all the time keep being engaging for thousands of hours. You're supposed to use that knowledge to learn new things, that you had no idea about before. Pretty much every answer opens up dozens of new questions, in effectively infinite exponential growth of wonder. If you don't fall into the pit of despair of expecting learning to _decrease_ your sense of wonder ("rainbows used to be so magical when I had no idea how they work") and instead apply your newfound knowledge to finding out _even more_ about the world, you're fine. But of course, most games don't have the depth that could ever support this. And learning about things from a wiki is far less satisfying than figuring them out yourself, or even sharing your knowledge with friends (and strangers) - just like it is with learning any other thing. You can get answers faster, but it's less likely you'll get inspired to learn more, and instead it's very easy to be like "But _somebody_ knows how it works; I _could_ learn about it by reading this article. So there's no point in doing so." It's something we teach children from a young age, and I expect it's one of the big reasons why schools tend to _discourage_ learning, rather than enabling it - it's just a pointless chore, everybody else is doing it, you're not really discovering anything, just listening to someone rattle on the same lectures they gave 20 years ago, scribbling in your notebook is far more satisfying than that. Apart from that, social activities in general seem to be something that your brain rewards you for _even if the activity itself is brain-numbingly stupid_ ("everything is better with friends"). Even for games that aren't multiplayer, just having a bunch of friends on voice chat while playing makes them better. I suspect this is another big reason why people tend to enjoy games (and many other activities) less as adults - you no longer have the luxury of being on voice chat for hours (or, in the "real world", being with the gang doing nothing of significance), and since the same is true for your friends, it's hard to coordinate any group activity that used to be effortless back in high school. And even if you do find the time, you will probably want to go someplace to avoid the distractions of your adult life, rather than playing an MMO. It's probably not surprising that a lot of adults playing MMOs happen to play at work :D
@@LuaanTi I love your comment. Yeah schools suck that way. Usually, instead of you discovering something, they just tell you what it is, then ask you to memorize it. Perhaps this is why many people use wiki for everything. It's what schools trained us to do since we were small children. And while it is more efficient to do things this way, it generally isn't much fun, because not only is it effortless, you did not make the discovery. Instead, you read the discovery from somewhere else. So if this is the case, then why do many people want to be efficient? Say you are killing guards for clue scrolls in Runescape.. This means that you are placing a bet using a resource called time for a chance of getting a scroll. If you do not get a clue scroll, your bet is lost. So you get better levels and equipment in order to reduce your bet cost. I have noticed that some people who are efficient don't have the choice to be inefficient. I also notice this within myself. I constantly get thoughts of how I am wasting more time to earn less. That discovery is a waste of time and I could know things faster simply by reading wiki. If I don't have the choice to be inefficient, that can only mean one thing: ADDICTION. Gambling addiction, to be precise. Efficiency is linked to gambling addiction, and explains why some people have to constantly fight off that urge.
I think the biggest thing was that when I played EQ back in the day it was novel to me AND to everyone else. There wasn't as much of an ability to just Google the quests or secrets in a zone or storyline, a lot of mysteries just stayed mysterious for a longer period of time. I think those 2 factors are what I miss most. And it's true that we're not going back to that, Google and wikis are here and not going away. Now the fun is more in getting good at the game and the socializing, which were always factors, but the emphasis has drastically increased because of the reasons I mentioned, the loss of the mass novelty and persistent mystery.
I do think that newer MMOs are missing some of the virtues of older MMOs, but it's difficult to go back to the old MMOs because those often lack some important improvements that were made in new MMOs. I think the biggest shift from old MMOs to new MMOs is that in old MMOs the essential skill they tested you on was your ability to make friends and form functional relationships with people. New MMOs test your ability to execute rotations and dodge hazard markers while in a group with people you aren't even talking to. A really big problem with MMO projects that try to capture the feeling of older games is usually that they get sucked into this cult of inconvenience, where they basically insist that in order for the play experience to be meaningful everything has to be tedious and inconvenient. I think those aspects are exactly why people don't just go back to the old MMORPGs. It's not convenience in itself that makes newer MMORPGs feel less meaningful, it's that new MMOs try to remove the inconvenient aspects of playing with others. The reality of the matter is though, building functional relationships with other players was the game. Your ability to shoot fireballs or whatever was never the essential skill the game tested you on. You still need to build a strong guild to do high end raid content usually, but that's also the content that requires very significant time investments. The casual play has become completely devoid of social interaction being the driver of success.
Being playing casually on and off for years, jumping from MMO to MMO. They are fun while learning the ropes, then ... nothing. No matter how cool or impactful the combat is, it just gets stale. I agree, that by missing the social aspect, I miss the whole point of the genre.
Just remove raidfinder from modern mmos Make the hyper easy mode difficulty raids still require a PUG group or guild to enter Bam, you once again need to be social to experience the endgame, but it doesnt require the time or mechanical investment that hardcore raiding does
@ thats interesting because as I recall The 2 largest growth points in WoW's history, the entirety of vanilla, and the wotlk launch were pre group finder. So if the game was gaining more than it was losing theres more to be said about the social aspect of not having group finders isnt there
@ Wrath wasn't really that impressive when it comes to growth. Look at any graph of the player numbers back them. Yes it peaked in wrath. But it hardly had any growth compared to vanilla and tbc. Mostly retention. Would actually say it looked pretty bad that the steady growth the game had during the first 2 expansions didn't continue with wrath. Also dungeon finder was added very late in the life cycle of wrath. Actually so much towards the end that most people remember it as a cata feature. Never liked this feature and never will. Just causes people to get antisocial which is bad for any MMO
The most fun I ever had in an MMO was when I was a member of an entertainment company in Star Wars Galaxies and we went around the galaxy putting on an adaptation of A Christmas Carol before large audiences. Also the courtroom drama we put on that wound up being the end of our little guild in the long term
The MMOs i've played lately, even the ones I played back then, have gotten much easier, faster and forgiving, which I find discourages actually making friends and cooperating. The games 10-15 years ago for the most part required you to find some randoms in the world and make friends in order to progress, nowadays there's usually some sort of automated partyfinder on the off chance that there's something you can't just solo in the first place.
The most fun I ever had on EQ was actually on the Agnarr TLP - until the PoP expansion. It was much easier than it was in 1999, but most of that "easier" is actually just QoL changes.
I have gone through that era of making friends and doing things with them. But as i grow, i know these communities will die one day because, that's the normal thing to happen. So i don't want to emotionally invest anymore. This realization took years. I think that happened to most people. After many years, they don't want to emotionally invest. The games changed because we changed.
FFXI hardest MMO I've ever played. Every victory was a monumental occasion. WOW Is the exact opposite of everything FFXI stood for. Instant gratification = Boredom
Here's a question for you, was it REALLY more difficult ? Or was it just less CONVENIENT ? Because when you think about it, the only thing they were doing back then was jacking up enemies HP and Damage, the combat wasn't deeper back then, in fact it was even less interactive due to the tech limitation of the time, sure you casted spells and used skills but... Most of the combat was kinda like a roll base system, like more traditional Pen'n'paper RPG and you were using skills that helped you survive encounters. So again... ask yourself this question, was it REALLY more difficult ? Or was it just less CONVENIENT ? and If it was more difficult then, was it "fair" difficulty ? or just bloated difficulty through jacked up HP and DMG stats ?
Honestly tho I've been playing those old mmos and they're not mechanically interesting. They're tedious, not really challenging. I can kill a rat. I don't want to kill 30 rats. If I'm going to play a hard game, I'd rather play a roguelike or a souls like or an arpg with a cool combat system. Something fun that isn't six hours of grinding to hit level 10. Went back to dark age of Camelot after years of nostalgia for it and honestly I couldn't play it for more than twenty minutes lol.
What I realize is that I'm searching for the feeling I had when I got home from school and was able to escape my anxiety-filled life. In school I didn't have anyone I considered a true friend, and I felt like a totally different person entering an MMO. I could be someone else, I could be someone no one could see behind the screen. Now, MMO's can't satisfy the craving for that escape anymore because it doesn't exist anymore. Although I'm still trying to escape, it's different now and for different reasons. What I'm chasing is that feeling I got when I logged into Runescape back in 2003
My best mmo (sorta) memory is meeting my future fiance on a Minecraft role play server. Three years later she moved from Belgium to the UK to live with me.
Absolutely, I play games differently now, since getting married and having a kid. During WoW/Wrath I spent countless hours on the game, made friendships I still hold, some of our guild met on the game and got married IRL. We worked so hard trying to take down Arthas, or get Gladiator ranking in PVP, I had scheduled raids and my free time was all in game. Nowadays, with a young son and lots of stuff to do, I find myself prefering FF14, because I can play it at my leisure, single player style, but if i find myself with some time, I can work on a Savage or something. Addendum: I wouldn't trade the life I have now for that old lifestyle for anything. My time as a no lifer was fun, but taking my Son to the park is a lot more fun.
i agree with this ffxiv and swtor are really nice because you can do alot of stuff by yourself and have a really good time where wow requires more dedication
@@andyd3447 I came to Elder Scrolls Online from Skyrim, so I naturally began ESO by playing solo, and played solo so much that my ranking got as high as other players who were much more experienced in group play, and it puzzled them that I was not a more effective player. But I have never been as skilled a gamer as others, and I never quite got the timing right for putting together an effective rotation, so I was never a real contributor to the groups I was in. I had a half-dozen tolerant and kind friends I valued highly, but when they all dropped out--leaving me to contend with the spoiled and narcissistic PVP-ers--I finally dropped out myself.
The answer is simple. The reason old school MMOs where the best was because the community was MUCH different back then. The best thing about MMOs are their community and the friends you make along the way. The late 90s and early 2000s had a very different kind of player, those who like to Roleplay their character, where fans of fantasy and where explorers and played seriously because it was the only game back then. Compare that to kids today rushing for the end game in a week, not even stopping for a second to say hello and not caring about anything because gamers today are used to the theme park game design with no substance. So the MMO genre was a product of it's time. To give you an example, I met a random girl on Ever Quest and we quested for a while, I had to go eat and this person sat next to my character for almost an hour until I returned, imagine that today. I remember seeing groups of people just sit down around a campfire role playing, or a group of people coming together to form a group because you couldn't possible survive on your own. In contrast to modern gaming where everybody is a super hero, can solo the whole game by themselves, and don't have to care about anybody, nobody has time to make friends anymore, got to get that loot. Thats the reason MMOs will NEVER be like they where back then. Like I said they were a product of simpler times before social media and predatory/lazy game design.
I can't agree with you. I was a mom of 5 when I joined my first MMO. I am still a mom of 5 but they are all grown up so I actually have less responsibilities then I had. I lived through and saw the game change and eventually left it because it didn't give what it use to give. I built a guild. Over 300 members. 3 raid teams. 1 pvp team. I played every day leading the guild and 2 raid teams. The essences of my guild was not hardcore. We often took in less skilled players and helped them understand the game. We often recruited people in general chat when we was low on people for a raid. But then "instant gratification" became a core part of the game. You didn't need a guild to do dungeons or raids anymore. Just join the que. You don't need to know how to play your character, the devs will give you a lvl 100 for free if you buy the game! Sadly this brought out the worst in people. People could act any way they wanted. They could be abusive, sometimes to the point I had guild members crying. They could steal loot and just insta leave. Being nice and helpful, aiding people on their journey, knowing where every quest was before it was removed to shorten the leveling progress felt like wasted time stolen from me. I was the Oracle everyone asked about everything. The best moment was when my guild had been in a boss fight for 6 hours. It was the last night before a new expansion was going to release. I had trained every single one who was in the team. It was the last chance. And after much pain and suffering along the way finally, 2 hours before launch, we did it. So much work and effort and we had girls that cried of joy for finally have beaten the boss. The more you work for something, the more you value it. What you get for free through instant gratification does not carry value. It doesn't mean anything. THAT is why games are so bad today. That is why I left MMO.
Things rings true, but I do want to at least share one perspective. Not all MMOs reward instant gratification nowadays. A lot of them do, and that's a fair point. I would have to agree with you, in this is why I stopped playing FFXIV. But, not all MMOs do this. I think PSO2 is the perfect example of a game that doesn't, but at the same time, it's a game that doesn't force you to be social.
You're right. We just live in a far different time than what we all remember. We live in a time where children are walking into a kindergarten classroom with a supercomputer in their pocket. The online community will never be the same, not that it's all bad, but there's no going back to what it was.
Agree with you partially. I played WOW for 13 years and I felt the more "accessible" it was to join groups and find people, the more people started treating each other as expendable. People leaving groups at the smallest grievance. People kicking or vote kicking others out of groups for real or perceived shortcomings. Loyal long standing guild members being perma-benched or removed from raid roster because "new shiny star player" applied... and then this player would get their "gear, achievement, logs" and just jump ship to a higher progressed guild. People stopped mediating and discussing to solve problems, instead just blamed some scapegoat for the "problem" and kicked that person or blamed the group and jumped ship. People being rude, selfish, caring only to achieve their goal at the expense of others and not repaying the favour back. People being only valued for their dps number and not personality - ending with group of selfish pricks making obnoxious jokes and very politically un-correct comments (one guy had literally some neo-nazi opinions...) and most of those people being valued over polite, nice people because the former "pump numbers". Blizzard gave people all the tools to avoid responsibility to be a jerk - server transfers, faction changes, cross realm group finder with a click of a button, meanwhile removed things like master looter which helped guilds police people to not be jerks and selfish pricks. The duty to "gear up" was shifted from the guild looking for member to the player applying. The "community" followed with reducing everyone to anonymous number. You're not a person anymore, funny, nice, helpful or otherwise. You're your item level, raider.io score, warcraft logs percentile, "link curve" etc. You're just a number. You're also a class and a spec and after every class in my role was "top dog" for a time except mine (yay game balance) for 5+ years I was sick and tired of being asked to reroll fotm or declined entry just based on that. I fondly remember times from WOTLK to MOP where "bring the player not the class" ruled and people cared more whether I can play and I can socially fit into the guild rather whether my class is "the best" according to some gaming gurus. But mostly people get spoiled by ease of picking up the next player, so they can always just wait for the "correct class" to show up in the group finder or on wowprogress or apply to guild... I was still looking for the feeling of friendship, trust and camaraderie, instead I found a place where dog eats dog and everyone is just a stepping stone towards someone's goal.
I agree completely, my life is essentially exactly the same it was the day Everquest launched, some of it is the excitement of a new and amazing genre is gone sure, but it's mostly just the games are trash and so is the community that plays them...
you are not supposed to live in a virtual world you are supposed to play the damn game. if your real life sucks so bad that you need to flee into an alternate reality then you need therapy not an online game
Everyone else feels that way, too. At some point last year, I just started saying random things to people I come across. "What's everyone's favorite show right now?" "I really like your outfit/name!" "*random emote*" People RESPOND. And if I don't follow-up with these people, they rarely message me back. But when I message them later, they reply again! It's up to us to create the interaction that we crave.
Maybe this explanation works for many people, not for me. I am a gamer for 30 years now. My best experiences were in Everquest . I started 1 May 1999. I was 25, my best memory was, when I was around level 7 and was sitting at orc hill in greater faydark. I had a group of 6 and we had a downtime. That was the moment when I fell in love with mmorpgs. We all were sitting down in a circle, cause you had to sit to meditate or gain health. And we all were strangers, but we talked. That reminded me so much to my Pen and Paper sessions where you do exactly the same thing after a adventure or a hards day. I think many of the game mechanics of todays games, are ruining the posibillity to make new friends cause everything works now without even talking to your group or a person. Groupfinder, instance dungeons, instent travel. sorry for my english, i am german.
spot on with this comment. My best experiences also go way back to Everquest, for similar moments. I remember the 'downtime' moments in between battles, and even had in person guild meetings etc, and we actually talked, and dare I say it even had a tiny bit of roleplay mixed in. I definitely enjoyed WoW when it came out, but over the years of expansions saw all the elements of social interaction die away with the added mechanics that had you skipping over any chance for it to happen. Ironically, as my sense of nostalgia grew, I finally discovered and got into classic pen and paper DnD with old friends and new friends, and finally found that I could get that social aspect of RPG back in my life. DnD is filling the void for me now.
It's a multifaceted problem. What he talks about in the video is a large reason why many players aren't enjoying games anymore, but to your point the social landscape outside of MMOs has also changed dramatically. No longer are in-game chat the main way people socialize with other players. Free apps like Discord keep people in bubbles, either their friend group or a guild they join. Notice how in any modern MMO the region chat is filled with guild recruitment ads? 95% chance they have a discord server (why not? It's free) and once a player joins it they'll start paying less attention to the chat. Talking with other people for tips/advice is also mainly a waste of time since so many guides exist for pretty much any game released in the past decade. I've also noticed the younger generation (which I'm a part of) tend to care more about gameplay and the adrenaline rush than the social aspects of games that older generations (i.e., yours) might enjoy.
@@_Dingu I'd like to add my own experiences onto what you've shared. One thing that I've also noticed is that people are also going into the bubbles to escape the trolls, edgelords, and shock jock wannabes. Back in the day it was tedious to try to censor the chat to avoid this, and it was discouraging to look for an hour for a hard to find thing and when you ask in regional chat everyone gives you the wrong answer because it's 'funny' or 'a right of passage'. I've noticed that the chat that's open to all players has less helpful and welcoming responses, and more edgy or troll responses if any at all. I personally think it's because the people who would help just leave those ways of communication behind and the majority of those left behind are those who think edgy or troll responses are funny or even acceptable.
@ThatMarchingBunny It's similar for me, even though it came about in an entirely different way. My most memorable experience was taking a small group of friends up into the wilderness in Runescape 2 so that we could train on the harder mobs with some safety in numbers ... only to find another PvE group in that spot, along with a huge PK guild that was trying to kill them. What was supposed to be a chill training session turned into a full-scale war; we called out a temporary alliance with that group, blindsided the PK guild with our 'reinforcements', and killed a few of them before they ran off. In the middle of celebrating and running stuff back to the bank to stash, we got to know each other. That chance encounter led to guild invites, a lot more battles in the wilderness, and friendships that lasted for years. I can't think of any modern MMO that lets me have an experience like this. There's no sense of community or camaraderie in any of the games I've played. Queue up, do your role perfectly without speaking, get yelled at if you don't. Even if the mechanics are casual and forgiving, I rarely see anyone try to socialize. It feels like a job. So is it the fault of the playerbase these days, or the game design itself? I don't know. Probably both. Maybe I'm playing the wrong games.
For me it's not about lifestyle changes, I have just as much free time now to dedicate to games as when I was a teenager. It's the fact that most MMOs have changed in their design mechanics, the social contract and necessary grouping have gone, everything is a themepark now where you go from hub to hub looking for floating exclamation marks; reputation doesn't matter at all. individual servers have become megashards and LFG has become a fast travel dungeon finder where you speedrun and forget everyone immediately after while ticking off your daily tasks. So with the added anonymity of online people become assholes even more, doesn't matter whether it's PvP or PvE, there are elitists, trolls, racists and generally nasty people about. EQ had a dangerous world and no abundance of fast travel, you needed to interact with people just to get around, before you even got into grouping and adventuring. The game itself was more difficult, quests were not exclamation marks above NPC heads and you didn't go from obvious hub to obvious hub. It was built around talking and interacting with people, sharing information. Getting along with people and not being an asshole was important - there were consequences! You'd end up with a bad reputation that mattered as no one wanted to group with you or have you in a guild. An MMO like Pantheon is bringing back the things that made MMOs special to me, proper roles, necessary grouping, the social contract, meaningful travel, class/role dependencies, slower-paced more tactical gameplay. No 1v10 mob AoE & loot spam solo charge to max level then run your dailies and get a high 'gearscore' gameplay.
What made MMOs fun was the social aspect. There is too much now. Facebook, discord, twitter. There is no reason to socialize anymore, and mmos are updating in ways where you can just solo everything now. At least, this is my problem now with WoW. Nobody talks anymore. Nobody plays together. Guilds aren't this hype anymore unless you join one of the top of the 1%.
I definitely remember meeting up with friends in Runescape because it was the only way we were allowed to chat as most chat room sites were still sketchy with our parents.
Right? Now its just rush to the max level to the endgame and do the meta. In older mmos, like Ragnarok for example, everyone wanted the max level but some times they just stayed in the city talking.
@@LuizGustavo-ib6sb 100% right, even im guilty of this, and in the past i took my time. Partly because mmos used to be harder. Nowadays if you cant get max lvl in 2 days people will quit lol, so unfortunate
@@fiestafire5781 i disagree. as much as i like classic-wrath, the lvling is so much better now. the end game contents too.. when classic was announced i felt nothing, nor do i wan't to touch it again.
@@fiestafire5781 80% of people that ever played WOW had little to no interaction with other people and quite shortly after level cap. What made it fun for then was not direct interaction but the fact it was a shared space like going to a theater or a shopping mall. But I agree MMO's are competing with every other form of online social interaction today we forget how fast things have changed in 2004 no one had even heard of Facebook yet and UA-cam and Twitter 2005-2006
And games are no longer providing easy way to gain those friends online because you can do almost everything solo, you don't need to interact too much, you don't need to negotiate, be kind to others because you are not being rewarded or punished by your social behavior.
@@anonimowelwiatko9811 That is FAR more the reason people don't enjoy MMO's anymore. Current MMORPG's aren't massively multiplayer, or role-playing games. People who loved MMO's loved the idea of joining this "living, breathing world" that you could have an impact on, and just generally be a part of. Where you can create a new identity and have unique experiences with other real people, where you write the stories yourselves by playing together and interacting with the world! Not following along some terrible, scripted, on-rails "story", focussing on the development of comic-book like characters. Modern MMO's, especially WoW, have become nothing but "story-driven" loby-games, where you join a kind of complex loby, join a queue, and wait to be teleported to your instanced, on-rail content. You virtually NEVER see large groups of people anymore, everyone is split up into many different instances, it's becoming more and more like playing single-player content with a few other people running around you, that are completely meaningless to you, because you don't NEED them, or to interact with them, and they don't need you either! The only thing people do together in MMORPG's anymore is stand next to each other while they mash keys as hard as they can, staring at the damage meter, desperately trying to be #1. Part of being invested in a living, breathing world, is relying on other people for certain services or opportunities for progression or just doing something for the fun of it! Current MMORPG's have done EVERYTHING they can to make each and every player completely independent and self-reliant, being able to "finish", the game in a single-player like fashion.
The last MMORPG I played was the latest WoW beta. I kept looking for something new but realized it was just leftovers being reheated. It's fun if you can play a game that is escapist, but not so much when it's just virtual chores. Although, having said that, I have an older brother who would probably love a game of housecleaning.
Part of the problem these days is that everyone ever has just... They've become pretty much slaves to the meta and optimization. That's all they care about now.
For me it was wow classic 2020, raiding on a Friday night with a chill guild wiping and killing bosses for 4 hours. I think old mmos did 2 thing right, making it significantly easier to do content in a group vs solo and allowing permanent social structures to develop in the game. In newer mmos, if you don't bring friends outside of the game, you will end up playing alone, especially if you have social anxiety.
I think that's what i liked about vanilla WoW and now classic WoW. No LFR, No dungeon finder, you were forced to be a community to get things done, and that made you find friends and guildies, some did you dirty along the way, but even those times are stories you look back on... Today you just queue for a dungeon, hope you don't run into any evil randos or trolls, run silently through the content, and leave as quickly as you zoned in. Fun times? Not really...
Social anxiety isn't a thing. Its you being weak and boring and us not being allowed to tell you that you are being a pussy and need to snap out of it. Don't turn your unwillingness to reach out into a non-existent illness. Just man up.
I hear this argument all the time and its an absolute bullshit cop out. 1) If the lifestyle change was the main reason as to why people didn't enjoy MMOs anymore then it would also apply to other genres as well. Except right after the MMO trend started to slow down, the MOBA craze took over. A genre that requires hundreds of hours of playtime to achieve basic proficiency. 2) How many of the older "high profile" western MMOs had cash shops? None. Nowadays absolutely every single mmo release (or even re-release) comes with the inevitable question "Will there be any p2w or cash shop included?". Surely I don't have to go into detail why this topic is frustrating for older MMO players. 3) WoW Classic was an enormous success. And don't even try to say its because of "nostalgia". If we go by your logic of how lifestyle changes are the main culprit here then surely no matter how much nostalgia people have for vanilla WoW there would be no way for them to play or enjoy a game that requires so much of their time and attention...except people absolutely did. 4) You literally have a series on the channel called "Worst MMOs Ever" where you play super old MMOs and call them "garbage" - completely invalidating the entire point of this video. 5) Show me a modern game similar to Ragnarok Online. This is an argument based strictly on my personal game choice, but there is no other MMO out there that comes even remotely close to the unique experience that Ragnarok Online provided with its grid based movement. This feels less like an opinion and more like projecting.
Yeah, feels like a really hard projection here. There are plenty of people agreeing with him and that's fine but you make a nice, valid point on his worst mmo bits. That entire series is just shitting on games and why they're bad but then this video is telling us that we're the reason we feel the games are bad? Uhh.. okay then! Also a super valid point with the cash shop bit, every fucking mmo has that now and sometimes I feel like more work goes into the items you can purchase with real $$$ vs in game currencies. Bugs are left constantly untouched unless people make a hard stink or it breaks the game or they're losing out on money because people are going to play things anyways. People are going to complain how bad a game is, how awful it is, how it's gone downhill since time xyz but still play it and that's part of the problem, too. They know they can milk gamers for whatever they have 'cause we just keep coming back, I can easily admit I've been someone who's guilty of this as well. Also a big thing for me in games is hand holding, I remember being dropped in a world and having to figure things out and I LOVED that, now it's like you have to play the tutorials, you can't skip them and they show you how to do everything right down to how to use your keyboard. Yeah, that's a personal annoyance of mine and one I can look past for a good game worth dumping my time into, sept there really isn't too much of that out there anymore.
Extreme automation killed the heart of interaction in MMOs. Almost everything can be done without even saying ''hi'' to a random nowadays, which makes for a very dull experience. Also the new way ''grind'' works in MMOs is by keeping you glued to dailies and weeklies that are so boring and easy-to-do, with minimum rewards that are designed to stack up so that you can only make use of them after months of daily log in. Yes, I know old school MMOs were extremely grindy back then too, but the way they did it was different. Grind back then felt more like a journey, grinding now feels more like a job until you get your monthly reward.
My favorite MMO memory is grinding Karnor's Castle with my best friend in Everquest. We were duoing as a monk + bard. It was really hard and really fun for very little reward, other than we could do it. He has since then passed on, and I miss him every day. Rest in peace Daniel. Regardless, I agree and disagree with the video. For me it is impossible to replicate the magic of a first MMO, because going into future MMO's you know too much. You look things up quicker, you understand things like "meta" and allow it to influence your choices. It just isn't the same. That is why for most people the MMO you first dive into is always the best.
My most fun moment, was meeting some guy in a quest during ESO. We completed the quest, and played for a few hours. The guy was really nice and we had a lot of fun. That moment was today.
Same with me, my most fun moment was when I was playing WoW BC for the first time and I met a group of people in the hills brad forest that needed one more person for their 5 group quest. I joined and after that quest, played with them till the end of BC. I feel like most mmos trope today are pretty quick instanced based dungeons that take 10 mins to fully complete and after that the people in that group never meet again. Shoutout to Evac, Nusahmoon, Junno, and Austin.
My happiest memories from an MMO was finishing the Endwalker MSQ a few days ago, and then watching my friends share that experience. And before that, it was the Shadowbringer story. I am a 30+ year old dude. And I never had more fun with an MMO then I do right now.
@Denizen OfTheDepths hahahah, dude. Chill. It's a story about a video game. I'm clearly not interested in a debate. You wasted all that time writing that reply and I not going to respond on it Also, you're not as clever as you think you are. Have a great day, and try to enjoy things more. You'll be a lot happier.
My favorite memory was in my first MMO, LotRO. Where I was with a party and we were only level 8. We'd gotten done slamming some of the quests that at the time were geared to recommend a team. And we just were running through the woods and started chilling in an small river with a small waterfall. I thought the atmosphere was really nice. Just having gone to battle and then the tranquility of the river contrasted with the waterfall just high enough to be worried about taking fall damage. It was chill. And the second member of the team was into the relaxing waterfall hijinks and swimming off it. The third was like "The swimming isn't relaxing. You can't even dive like in WoW"
![Why do Gamigo kill MMO's? - [MMOPINION]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/CPZkfYWp9uo/mqdefault.jpg)
![Why do Gamigo kill MMO's? - [MMOPINION]](/img/tr.png)
Keeping up with dailies/weeklies, grinding, and getting fomo'd left and right instead of just exploring the world and chatting with strangers kills the fun for me.
Agree. MMORPGs used to be much more fun for me because it used to be new world to explore with hidden magical things hidden everywhere. Now everybody know every bumfuck about it and gameplay changed from exploration to doing tasks to optimize their characters.
There's still some MMOs that actually care about the gameplay from level 1, instead of just grinding up to max when "the game begins". I'm thinking mainly GW2, where no expansion has ever added higher level gear and literal exploration gives you literal experience points.
@@Obelion_ Tradition or not, it still sucks.
@@Obelion_ The funny thing is that no they weren't, at least not really. WoW had to up the daily cap from 8 to 25 when they added more dailies in the original TBC. Then dailies became a staple in WoTLK, but they were generally optional. You could power game through them in a month, or spread them out over a longer period. There wasn't so much a race to max it out super fast to keep up with the meta. Then Cata, and mop tied reputation to them. So if you wanted the best gear you had to do dailies every day, 8-20 of them, on top of your dungeons and raids. Part of Activisions plan to increase engagement. Get more players playing every day while bleeding subs.
So yeah, they've been around since 2006ish, but for someone like me who started with EQ1, they weren't always a thing.
@@parthon CAAApitalism do be like that, eh?
Honestly I think the reason I'm not enjoying MMOs anymore is because I rarely, if ever, interact with strangers like I used to.
There's two main reasons for that as well.
1. Games are easier or well documented so you don't need to ask questions or coordinate with your group.
2. Combat has become so action oriented and gameplay so face-paced that it leave very little time for chatting.
@@mattmason8474 None, it's based on the person themselves, I have created a raiding community with 10 static groups in final fantasy 14, I am talking with almost all of these members which are 80 of them btw. And the discord is also at 300 people, I am actively improving the community talking with people having people interact with the community trying to make it feel alive. And mean while I come across a lot of different kinds of people, some are very social while others are just not into talking or are anxious and only like to dm me because they feel safer that way. Humans are diverse and some people like being social other don't.
If for some reason you think you don't like playing mmo's anymore because of the I am not talking to strangers, either do something about it or you might ask if that's the real reason.
Have you tried talking to others rather than waiting for them to talk to you? I make sure every group I join I say hi, people are much more social when you are social too. I have good chats and do mutliple keystones with the same players. I had a guy who had completed 180 20+ keystones... doing +10's with us for 3 hours just because we were social and had a laugh. A complete stranger.
That's by the games designs now. I agree
@@kwando472 True but I think there`s more to it. Its great that you created those groups and that you interact with them, but you are all just doing the same one thing and thats the only thing the game lets you do together. Yes, there are some other stuff too, but it's still a very limited interaction compared to what it could be if the game wasnt so theme parky. The game`s design is a bit at fault, as there is very little reason or tools to do anything together other than that. Everyone basically has to do the exact same things Only difference is whether one of you is a healer and the other is a dps. The only content in the game is what the devs create, and there is very little room to use your imagination and create new things yourselves.
You are kind of forced to do those things if you want to progress and the game has only one point which is to progress... so you are a raiding community... because thats the only community that can exist. See what I mean? I am sure its great, but it could be much more.
"Remember when you had friends?" Damn, didn't hold anything back there eh.
Me: thinks back and remembers all the guilds I've joined hating me regardless of mmo. "Go on."
I have plenty of friends. We just don't hang out in WoW together. We gather in person and play a variety of games, including D&D.
I know that's not the reason because I've never had close friends.
It's a _TERRIBLE_ argument. I had more fun playing game with strangers and meeting new people and _making friends_ with people in a guild. It had nothing to do with my local friends. I didn't even play _any_ MMOs with local friends.
@@Haruka_May i agree
One of the biggest disappointments of adult life, for me, was finding out just how hard it is to make new friends as an adult. I mean actual friends, and not just people you're cordial with.
I feel u brother, I just started my first work last year and damn I hate how my colleagues is bringin each other down just to kiss ass with our boss, like bro we're all eventually gonna get a raise you don't have to kiss ass and spread rumors about other people to be above them, this adulting sucks for real.
Same here man. I hate being an adult because of this. I'm borderline suicidal.
I've tried to throw some parties with people I work with, invite like 14 people, and get maybe two of them to show up consistently.
I made three pounds of dip and spent four days eating it because no one showed up that time.
Don’t think it’s necessarily hard to make new friends it just people usually have their friends established by adulthood and they don’t really want more close friends. So it can be hard for someone new to the area, job, etc to break into those friend groups
@@What-he5pr hey man, do u game on pc? I'm kinda in the same boat as u, wanna lobby up?
I just started eso on pc
I agree with some of what you said Josh. Absolutely, a life without responsibilities (middle school or whatever) made ALL games more enjoyable. I used to kick it with the boys on Modern Warfare 2,, some of my favorite gaming memories are from those after school COD sessions. But - I do think something very real is at play here, and not just simple nostalgia.
My favorite MMO memory is of playing runescape back in 2005, and I still actively love and enjoy the game today. The thing is, even oldschool runescape is extremely different from playing it in 2005 despite the game taking on the 2007 reboot. Everything is based on grinds, XP Gains, not wasting XP, and minigames are completely dead content. Nobody plays the game for "Fun" anymore, and I think a large part of that is because of how available information is.
Players used to fear a quest like Monkey Madness, saying how incredibly hard it was, and the sight of another player holding a dragon scimitar meant they were super knowledgeable. Nowadays, nobody would ever just walk around the world and create their own adventure in their own way... they would never mine coal at a completely inefficient spot. The access to endless guides, wiki pages, and overexaggerating of how important it is to be a high level rather than just having fun is what makes the experience so much different.
When everyone is a huge noob, and has no idea what they're doing, the social aspects of the game such as the minigames, chatting with people in a major city, and world events like the party room seem like a fun thing to do, not a waste of XP.
Great point well made 👍
I catch myself optimizing the fun out of games and I hate it
Part of it is the availability of information, but I also think our own ability to process that information plays a part. Guides and walkthroughs and in depth analysis existed for RS even way back in the early 2000s. But as kids we simply weren't concerned with looking for those things, and less likely to be able to apply the information even if we got it. We're adults now. We optimize, because that's what life has taught us to do. We can't help finding the best XP/hour, or most efficient routes, the best gear for a particular boss. Our time is at a premium, and that extends into our recreational activities.
Exactly I think survival games are a perfect example of this. They start of nice and super immersive until a huge clan with way too much free time tske over the server. You're whole play time from that point out is about progressing instead of exploring and having fun. Mmos are no different they start of fun but after a while everybody is just racing to the endgame, everything you do needs to serve some purpose. It also doesnt help that we've seen every type of game a 100 times already, its damn near impossible to create a new fresh mmo experience
Thank you! I had a similar experience trying to get back into the game.
I played Runescape for 7 years it was absolutely amazing simply because how easy it was to talk to people and meet friends, hell I still talk with my old guildmates I met back in 2004 despite quitting the game back in 2011. I tried to play the game again multiple times, nobody talks to random players anymore, the game was back but not the community.
'No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man.'
Existential crisis mode activated after reading that quote :p Beautiful though.
Heraclitus?
@@botousai The you that's finished reading this is different than the one who started reading this. Both of those "you" are dead by the time you read this.
Unless you dig into his old tweets and hold it aginst him.
well said
"It needed teamwork and this was fine, *because you had friends* "
This one stings.
@S p So you're wrong...you had friends in the game because you made them in the game. Just because you didn't bring your irl friends into the game didn't mean you didn't have friends in the game
Ha, I work a 32 hours job and it's still more time investment than school was ^^
But at least nowadays my mom doesn't come in to turn of the N64 because I played for an hour xD
Saddest thing is: Since my third last year in school i have such a hard time making friend and trusting anyone that i NEVER made friends online or in games and ALLWAYS played EVERYTHING singleplayer. For 14 years now. The concept of making friends in games is absolutely alien to me
I used to love this mmorpg called Dofus, until they kept changing it and making it worse. I played it for over 10 years I think. Way too many good things to list about it, but 1 great memory I have was this weapon I had. A bow. It was pretty high level but barely did any damage, and was expensive to make. It was very hard to use: you had to change your stats (for the worse?) to equip it. Why use it? It took money from people you hit with it. Their actual game money. Leaves their bag and goes into yours. I found this guy I hated, AFK out in the middle of nowhere. I attack him in PvP, he's still afk. I start making these healing barriers around him, like a cage. I start shooting him, stealing his money. The barriers (giant carrots actually) heal him every turn. He stays AFK for like 28 MINUTES! The bow steals a random amount 1 to 5,000, I stole like 80,000 before he came back. He started cursing at me and attacking the carrots surrounding him because he's stuck in a carrot cage lol. I can't remember who won, I think I did. But the important thing is I got some really funny revenge and a lot of money from someone who was a jerk to me, and I will remember it forever
Holy shit. I never wanna come across you pissed off in any game.
If you didn't know who I was, then I would be fine randomly wandering into you, but I never wanna get on your bad side after reading that.
Got a feeling you would find a way to screw someone over even if it wasn't in Dofus.
Even without a money stealing bow, I bet you would find a way.
@@Justacheese yeah I'll take revenge as far as I can go as long as I don't think I'll get banned
Revenge is a dish best served cold. :D
I tried Dofus once, I couldn't get around its mechanics and ended giving it up, I got too used to the simplicity of games like Tibia or RuneScape
Lol I remember you and your guild, also loved to play Dofus but I feel like many other game developers they fell into the trap of fixing what wasnt broken, see WoW, Runescape - also I read somewhere that they lost 30% of the playerbase when switching to Dofus 2.0
Why I'm not having fun in MMO's anymore? No one answers to me talking in the chat box anymore. Not even in a city full of players.
They're all with their friends on discord or something. When you think about it, stuff like guilds were features originating in games when apps like that didn't exist. That WAS your social app, most likely. Nowadays the social/community aspects of gaming can be done better by 3rd party apps, to the point where some guilds have their own discord server now.
Times change, man.
They're all with their friends on discord or something. When you think about it, stuff like guilds were features originating in games when apps like that didn't exist. That WAS your social app, most likely. Nowadays the social/community aspects of gaming can be done better by 3rd party apps, to the point where some guilds have their own discord server now.
Times change, man.
@@MrpotatoChips It would be nice if there were more MMOs out there for people that like being social and those that want to hide in their little bubble.
I don’t think social apps like discord are a benefit to that end at all though. One of the big draws of an mmo like WoW was that it was such an organic way to meet people on your little adventure. For everything else discord and the likes are good for, fine.. But it does tend to be overly cliquey. In an MMO though? It has no place and its a tragedy that ppl would be stuck in their own discord server
Idk, trade chat in WoW still holds the legacy of the Barrens. You probably logged in during unsociable hours or in a barren MMO.
My happiest memories were playing LOTRO with my dad. It didn't honestly matter what we were doing. I miss that.
I love that game, Id love to see him review it, but, thats awesome, I always wanted to play games with my dad, and he did play dc universe online with me a few times, which was awesome, but he just wasn't really a gamer and didn't really understand a lot of it, so it just didn't work out, but I guess I'm just saying i think its really cool that you did that
this i can say honestly thre wasa time where suvivability and leveling was 120 in wow - this i can say made me stick around killing bosses w enough challenges- i went back yes w better PC hardware and still had friends...Dying more felt like crap the game felt more like work in SL - expansion wow- today i look @ the game try to enjoy and felt a greater disconnect then a reconnect i still have time in my life work money etc balance despite a few things going up here and there still didnt come back due the fate of fun.. having 350 to 600k health was more satsifying then 52k ... ah yes a memories i wish to relive . as for graphics it felt real enough and cartoon enough.
I remember playing WoW as a kid with my dad and just goofing off or exploring while he went through the tedium of keeping my ass alive lol.
Then when I got my ex to play WoW for the first time, she wanted to goof off and run around too. Looking back, I really regret trying to get her to do quests, because It didn't click with me that she was experiencing the game the exact same way I used to, and the way I wish I could again.
same... rf online with my dad was cool as hell
I still remember 11 year old me (I’m in my 20s now) running downstairs to tell him I’d finally hit level 20 (I was obsessed with making new characters so that was an achievement at the time)
Maybe the real MMORPG is the friends we made along the way
@@laoch5658 and of course that became the norm cause everyone wanted to be that guy, so just playing the game and talking to ppl stopped being the focus for mmo rpg's. they've been trying to bring that back, but going it solo and min maxing everything and speed running content has just permanently damaged the mmo rpg landscape and design philosophy. the only mmo rpg that ive come across that still holds old mmo rpg values important while being progressive is Final Fantasy XIV. been having a blast grouping with and talking to the community there, they're super active and really nice. they dont mind at all if you're new or a returning veteran they are always willing to help and talk, its honestly really refreshing. an mmo rpg where you can finally take your time, oh and the stories in FFXIV are INCREDIBLE! they're SO good!.
Sucks I met the best group of people / raid guild in Wow, and when I left didn't stay in contact with any. Wish social media was bigger back then.
@@laoch5658 Both are extremely important; Without a drive to play a game but still having friends you just jump to a different game to be with them and have a good time, but if you have the drive and no friends then it's only a matter of time until you're lonely in the game and give up on it unless you reaaaally like soloing forever.
Bro.....
what anime is this?
The reason I enjoyed MMOs more back in the days is that there wasn't this huge apparatus of online resources surrounding them, and terms like "meta" didn't exist. Your progress and prowess ingame depended more on your own imagination and resourcefulness than your ability to consume walkthroughs and videos on class builds and boss strategies.
Yeah, that's one of the big reasons why "the magic is gone". In the days of old, you'd have to ask other players about not only secrets, but also just regular gameplay features (especially if tutorial sucked, which was quite often the case), and then you could develop your own style and share your wisdom.
Now, you're usually kindly directed to a wiki or a youtube tutorial.
@@KubinWielki Right? Remember when it was cool to share some knowledge because you were there before? Or people were nice enough to take you somewhere and show you the ropes a bit. Now it's grind to max level, grind for gear, etc. It's linear with no chance of exploration. The best memories I have from video games are where I can tell a story about how I got into a situation and got out or died.
THIS TO A T
Availability is never the servant of possibility. You don't have to look anything up if you don't want to, even if it grants other players an advantage. You can still play like a total idiot if that is your solemn choice.
1000%, i find this also with path of exile. ive found that with me and my friends theres a big pressure to just follow an optimal guide that, whilst looking and playing cool, is passive in your development of it. no creativity, no personal touch, just follow the guide and clear as fast as possible.
MMOs are now more concerned about how they can squeeze more money out of players rather actually have pride for the game.
Yup this is the thing the author imo totally underestimates. I think this invalidates his whole video. The design principles have changed a lot. Games used to be made exclusively by the game developers. These days the marketing departments have more input than the devs.
Before this change that was gradual, games were designed for fun. Now they are designed -just like social media- to make you spend as much time as possible, and to to make people buy microtransactions.
It is very important to realize that fun is no longer the main goal. Fun is but a tool to help you get addicted at some points.
The video author with his emotional take imo was a bit pedantic, and mostly missed the point.
@@melanieenmats Blizzard is the perfect example of how times ruined such a great game company.
Also the players are trying to find fastest route through the games to the "top tier" "end game content", demolishing the need for low-mid-level questing. Which the companies are doing their best to serve and monetize.
@@DingoZed If that was true why did so many people stop playing Vanilla WOW already? Its not nearly as monetized as the current wow.
@@fmgmailaccount2445 because vanilla wow is a 12 year old game that most people already experienced
- download the game by the nostalgia
- play the game
- realized: it's not the game i miss, it's the time that i play that game
100% . RuneScape and maple story are the only games that keep me around to gaming. As weird as it is
@@bananapeelonhead No, stop, I can't do this anymore. I'm so fucking close to relapsing, but being a boomer on RO these days is suicide.
Yep, this. You can never recapture the wonder of childhood. Most manbabies who cry about current games aren't mature enough yet to realize this.
I downloaded the MMO from my heavy gaming years(There's still a few hundred people that play it,) and I was caught off guard by how much it had changed. Basically, all of the things I loved about it we're gone and replaced with "Daily missions" and "Solo friendly content". I even tried playing a legacy server, but that required jumping through so many hoops to get a buggy version of the game I remember, that nobody really even plays.
I downloaded classic wow thought it was gona be so great for a few days it was then it hit me this was made for 2004 era and it should stay there . It didn't have the same magic as where I didn't know what the hell I was doing and the style is so outdated let alone I dont have a whole day like I did when I was younger 🤣
Honest answer: more free time is what I would need to really enjoy an MMO
Compleyely understandable.
This is incredibly true for my experience as well.
More free time and specifically looking at WoW (my first love MMO), way less RNG-locked progression. Even after I stopped having hours every night to give to the game, I still enjoyed logging on and slowly plugging away at personal goals. Then those personal goals became time-sensitive RNG-based things I may never see the right daily or mob spawn to complete and I just can't care enough.
@@JoshStrifeHayes a game you should not have left out is Star Wars Galaxies.
Lol ain't no MMO right now that is worth your free time.
As I grow older I realize this doesn't just applies to MMOs it applies to single player games as well, I can't tell the last time I had a truly 'magical' experience playing a game like I did when i was younger
I thought about that too, but now that I think for a bit - I really did have intense or emotional experiences playing the following (off the top of my head, but a long read. *TL;DR:* there are still plenty of very high quality and incredibly imaginative games that can very much give you that "magical" experience):
God of War reboot (a cinematographic masterpiece and a satisfyingly challenging game). The Witcher 3 (the Ciri story...wow...). Detroit: Become Human (overall choices I made for the story). It Takes Two (co-op with my missis - I've never played a game created with such imagination and attention to detail!). The Wolf Among Us (A visual masterpiece running on a twisted version of the tales of old). Monster Hunter World + Iceborne and Generations Ultimate (lots of co-op with the missis). Mafia 1, 2 & 3 (the stories are just so good and I really like the mafia premise). Bioshock Infinite (The story and just how lifelike Elisabeth felt as an in-game character). DOOM 2016 and Eternal (just badass gameplay at break-neck speeds). Just Cause 3 (surprisingly satisfying progression that allows for more and more grandiose destruction). Kena: Bridge of Spirits (excellent story and tight gameplay). Diablo II Resurrected (this one''s clearly nostalgia xD). HITMAN reboot series (best Hitman games ever, extremely fun to replay and unlock new items). Hades (the story, the music, the writing, the gameplay, the everything... First and ONLY game I've ever got 100% achievements for on Steam)! Prey 2017 (very immersive if you're a stealthy person. Very cool story!). Wolfenstein reboot series (Old Blood / The New Order / The New Colossus - Uber difficulties just feel right!). Valheim (co-op with the missis again. A lot of fun moments spent building a very nice base). Undertale (very unique game). Metroid Dread (I've never played Metroid games, but I tried the demo and liked it a lot. Bought the game and wasn't disappointed!). Diablo III (spent like 400h+ SOMEHOW on the Switch faming seasons and gear for my barbs...). The Legend of Zelda: The Minish Cap (bought some old Game Boy advance games to experience as I've never had one. The Minish Cap is a very clever game that was just the right amount of challenging and intuitive that it was a delight to progress through). Zelda Breath of The Wild (a modern era Zelda game that rewards ingenuity. Like SERIOUSLY - it's very satisfyingly interactive in many ways that aren't even obvious at first to a gamer). Super Mario Odyssey (My first try at a 3D Mario game after getting it as a gift for my Switch. One of those great Nintendo games again). Superliminal (it's a wacky experience that challenges your perception. A technological marvel!). Cyber Hook (I got hooked...). Slay The Spire (I didn't think I was into card games, but this one is very well made and just keeps pulling me back in for more). Beat Saber (it's a VR one, but a total must). BPM (you just can't stop...). Minecraft (lots of co-op and birthdays during covid spent playing with the missis and friends). Terraria (it's actually not at all like a "2D minecraft" and also impressed me just how good it is!). Spyro Reignited Trilogy (I have not played the PS1 originals, so this was a new game for me - a very fun, great quality platformer). Dusk and Ion Fury (probably also somewhat nostalgic by their graphical nature?). And so many more... West of Loathing, the new South Park games, Forza Horizon 4... For me, anyway. Have you tried any of those? Thoughts?
A semi recent one I could think of is 'Hollow Knight'. Not many modern games actually let me recapture that childhood sense of wonder, where you just get lost exploring a beautiful new world. Like not trying to get too serious, but its upcoming sequel is one of the only things I'm looking forward to in life rn.
'Dark Souls 1' is definitely up there as well. You've probably already heard about the combat and lore being good, but the huge interconnected map and focus on unlocking organic shortcuts make the place feel more real. Later titles use disjointed maps you warp between which made it feel too gamey for me to get the same childhood feeling.
'Rain World' left a huge impact on me with its setting and brutal survival mechanics. You play as a mutant animal in a post apocalyptic setting just struggling to find food, shelter, and not be eaten as you uncover more about the past. I literally haven't been able to beat it, but I keep coming back because the world is that immersive.
'Monster Hunter: World' could be a runner up if you haven't played a Monster Hunter game before. Definitely a bigger timesink like 100hr+, which I get not everyone has time for. Older games like Freedom Unite are great too, but World is the most accessible.
'The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild' is good too.
I think the big draw for for me is a focus on exploration, so there's a bunch of other Metroidvanias that sort fill that hole. If you've already tried 'Hollow Knight' and want more, maybe try:
'Momodora: Reverie Under the Moonlight' is great, and only like 8hr playtime.
'La-Mulana' this one's brutally difficult and not for everyone, though definitely very rewarding if you're into it. Depending on how much you're willing to look up guides, the playtime can vary wildly.
'Axiom Verge' this plays like a more modern version of the original 'Super Metroid', and does a lot to subvert Metroidvania genre tropes for people that are hyper familiar with the genre like me.
Heck, just play 'Super Metroid' or 'Castlevania: Symphony of the Night' if you haven't before. Metroid Dread too.
Single players definitely give a lonely depressive feeling. I believe there are few exceptions though..games like Dark Souls...or this one masterpiece psychopathic gem of a game called Kenshi
Had the same feeling, I really thought I wouldn't enjoy games as I used to anymore. Then I played Elden Ring and it gave me that exact feeling back. You just gotta find the right game, and that's tough with all the dogshit garbage that gets shipped as AAA these days.
@@KevinNijmeijer Interesting that you's say this because I am 70+ hours in Elden Ring now myself and feeling the same lol
I came here expecting someone to confirm my bias against modern mmo's and how they're so watered down or hold your hand the whole way.. but instead got some pretty wholesome feedback and perhaps even an epiphany on why I don't really enjoy mmo's anymore: adulting is hard, makes you an impatient SOB, and takes a lot of your time now.
Or maybe jedi mind tricks do work only on the weak-minded. 🤯😶
Short Version: Life is more depressing and lonely the longer you're alive.
I used to think I had that problem. But then along came some games that had me right back where I was in my early adult years, among them a rather simple game called Bastion. That made me realize that there was indeed something wrong with the games I play, not with me. It's worth digging for the good stuff, and a lot of games are indeed not as good as "they used to be".
So because life is short and will move on after I die, I should just kill myself? Got it.
@@vincentlee7359 That certainly is one way to look at it. Mortal, sentient beings are a bit of a cosmic joke.
Or maybe your life is better now and MMOs just seem not a fun escape anymore. After all if you have a shit lonely life but on an MMO you are awesome and have friends, you will remember more fondly then when you have a good life and IRL friends then MMO does not need to provide for that relief and they will seem more boring.
@@vincentlee7359 Or you could think there are young people having a shitty childhood. Maybe you could help them while you last. In fact it would help them and you. Just a hint of purpose in life.
Came for the explanation, left with an existential crisis
Yup... Means I guess we'll never find that feeling again. :'(
@@ItsJustMe0585 I'm currently just buying games on Steam hoping to play them all when I retire at 70 yo....
@@Rig0r_M0rtis is it sense of wonder? Is it dementia? Don't know. Don't care.
@@ItsJustMe0585 Depends... even though my best years of gaming experience were in my High School, I've had some amazing never-before gaming experiences long after graduating. Some games can still catch you, if you let them... and the accessibility of them is much higher than it was in the "olden days".
For me it was Space Engineers a year ago... the thrill of being in a ship, in what seemed to be like a scene taken out of startrek, out of fuel, being grabbed by the gravity of the planet... being in the shadow, wihout access to solar, slowly burning the Ice in storage to make new fuel, hoping it would last, slooooowly gainig altitude, hoping the fuel won't run out before we run out of the gravity...
We managed to survive, but barely... that was on par with some of the greatest experiences from Azeroth ;)
Also the bizzare moments that games like Sea of Thieves can get you into can be as much thrilling, if you have the right company.
Don't expect to relive the moments from 10 years ago... but don't give up on making new awesome ones. The good times aren't limited to the past...
honestly. this shook me lol
For me what changed was the rise of 3rd party voice chat. I always had a wonderful time being my character typing at people but now a days people require you to sit in a voice channel so they can tell you how bad you are at the game before booting you.
This happened to be in Dragon Nest. Carved my way to cap and basically got grilled by a tryhard in a discord chat because I wasn't playing "to the guilds standards" as I just wanted to have fun. I left and really didnt play again.
What i miss is VALUE> Now days you spend 60-80 bucks for a new game and beat it in 5 hours. LIKE wtf? With old games you had endless nights of fun.
@@dragonsyph2557what game are you beating in 5 hours? What mmo is 60-80?
@@zodiartsstarrothen you wouldn’t have liked old MMOs 😂😂 “playing to the guilds standard” isn’t new. Back in 03 people were saying that. Then they would murder your character which would make you lose yourself and xp
@@toptiertech7291 which is why I didn't play them
Wow 2006. It was friends. It was the novelty. I was blown away by undercity, like I was TOTALLY lost in Tirisfal Glades. I felt the foggy cold on my skin, I smelled the graveyards, I felt the exhaustion of running around. I LITERALLY explored the Barrens for days.
These days are gone.
100% agree. And I disagree with the video because I think that feeling, our feeling of immersion, was a result of the game itself and its design, not the moment in our lives. I'm older, but I still have plenty of free time. The problem is that MMOs feel formulaic, optimized, rote, and focused on scheduled gratification. To use WOW as an example, MMOs have become a math problem on how to keep people subbed, with a carefully timed stream of arbitrarily delayed reward systems, like raid release schedules and mechanics like Renown and Soul Ash caps, Artifact Power and Azerite. Servers have merged into massive faceless millions, instead of the relatively small communities where even normal players could develop a name and reputation.
MMOs are very different creatures than they used to be, and it's not something that can be hand-waived away by the fact that I have kids and bills. I can still stay up until 1am playing MMOs. My best memories aren't necessarily from an all-nighter. The games have become corporate, and lost their soul in the process.
One of my best memories of wow is literally just leveling in the barrens on my first character. The world was so vast and there was so much beauty in watching the sunrise over ratchet. Truly an immersive feeling that I haven’t felt since exploring new zones in WoW in wrath and before
I played WoW again for a while a couple of years ago and definitely missed being able to find someone to team up with just by hanging round just outside a dungeon for a few minutes (although back then it worked better than it should have because there were only a couple of players on my server who'd already made it to level 60)
I felt that
@@quickdudley well, you can. There are social guilds and communities in WoW. Just go, find one that suits you and blast on. You're just trying to find excuses to praise old times and bash new.
Snap shot:
" Damn you are already 24 years old? "
Me being 40 now ...
I dont hate guilds it just the fact I hate people love me because I dont want them to hurt me in the future. That why I play by myself and only make jokes with the mens..... I just want to be positive all the time but Nostalgia and the negative over take me over time..... Man life is complicated.
Came for an answer, left with depression.
@Balkan Rifle No I really think he meant life sucks for a lot of adult people.
But if yourself find meaning and maybe hapiness in your new priorities, all the power goes to you obviously.
Most people haven't quite figured how to do this yet according to my own observations.
It's the exact opposite for me. I never had friends in the game and I have way more free time now, but it's not fun for me anymore. When my life was shit, Azeroth was a better place to be. My life is infinitely better now and so the game just feels like a treadmill of chores. Thanks for helping me put it into words.
I kinda have both your and his view?
I do believe having less time in my lifestyle made me want to play MMOs less, but it's also the c h o r e s. The daily missions specifically are so tiring... It's repeating the same thing, over and over again. That's why I drop most MMOs very quickly, I didn't like the gameplay, how much grinding I had to do, Dragon Nest and DDTank(I don't know if this game counts as MMO) were the only one's that I kept playing for long due to their somewhat unique gameplay, but man repetitiveness grew old.
I agree with the video and how social aspect was important for a lot of people, but it's only partially true for me.
TLDR; Why you're not having fun in MMO's anymore is because you're not having fun in Life anymore...
A kinda sobering thought
13:33 The final line is more abstract and melancholic - MMO has changed, but YOU have changed more.
Hell yeah that game sucks! so pay to win, and so punishing! realistic graphics are the only plus.
That line's definitely true for me!
Hey I'm Cen from Project 1999. Just wanted to say my experience from the olden days was the enjoyment in fearing the world itself. There is a joy in traveling on an adventure where death has consequences, and leaving the city gates is scary because the monsters out there are strong and will kill you. When you put a team together in town and actually make it to your next destination the thrill is incredible.
It's the lack of fear that ruins newer games for me. Fear is exciting.
100%
I hated Borderlands 3 for this same reason. There was no challenge or fear of dying like in BL2. I could just stand and look at some of the bosses in BL3 for quite a while before having to worry about dying. The stupid thing about it was that only after you finish the campaign(~40-50 hours) then you could adjust the difficulty to make it a challenging experience and it immediately became a much more fun game.
I completely agree. Other than fallout 76 not having NPCs, I felt that the experience was addicting at launch because the world was brutal and resources were limited. Now the game is piss easy and sucks even though they added NPCs. Legendaries ruined that game big time.
I went back to project 1999 to play EQ in like 2009 after not liking MMO's for 10 years. Yep, it was better than the modern MMO's of the time. It had nothing to do with nostalgia, free time, or friends. EQ definitely has more challenge and you're afraid to die deep in a dungeon. I played WOW the first month it came out and got to 60 in like 2 weeks solo face tanking mobs with a rogue and never played it again. Death is/was meaningless in MMO's. I honestly don't even know now since I haven't played any in a while except Wildstar for a month or two like 7 years ago.
Exactly
I didn't expect to face an existential crisis after watching gaming content.
Me either... and yet here we are. There was some damn hard truth here.
and now I am sitting here, realizing I am old and my best days are behind me. At least I have my memories (for now)
In the end, all past is worthless. The past is only useful with regards to the future. Your memories help guide your path in your life going forward.
I used to miss the past so much. But I've realized that only the present counts.
Best of luck to you guys. Realizing our inevitable single directioned passage through time is not an easy cake to swallow.
Man I feel you here I am in the middle of my office working hours, got lunch break, decided to browse UA-cam and this was recommended only to be reminded how old I am now.
They always sneak up on you.
My favorite parts of MMOs from childhood (I was aged 9 when I started playing Everquest) was just being lost and immersed in the world. That game had no hand holding at all, online resources were non-existent or scarce, so it was a big, scary, uncharted world, no maps, no markers, with wandering terrifying enemies that scowled at you, ready to attack, but it was incredible to explore. Getting helped by veterans, getting my first platinum piece, exploring Ak'Anon, discovering the Necromancer's guild behind several hidden walls in the sewers of Qeynos.. Riding the boat for the first time and zoning into sea, stopping at an island that was way outside of my league, and going to another city.
Joining random groups in the early teen levels and exploring dungeons because you couldn't really survive on your own and it was always dangerous.. Comparing to my experiences in WoW, FFXIV, GW2 leveling & dungeons where, for the most part, you just zip through as fast as possible, solo your way through or group and gather up mobs, AOEing them and healing through all damage with ease. *I still play and enjoy those games immensely,* it's just different and less memorable to me. The slower pace and difficulty is really only found at end-game raiding with a guild that is unfamiliar with content, I still hold memories of raiding in WoW: Legion in 2016 with close friends pretty dear.
The exploration and wonderment of EQ back then was incredible, I'll agree it was definitely enhanced by being a child at the time, but I'll disagree that it's the same; times have changed. Modern MMOs are not really scary and VERY, VERY hand-holdy, they're downright afraid of challenging the player until the very end. I kind of wish they would have a self-imposed difficulty slider - let me underlevel myself for a loot boost or something while I'm leveling. Instead the gameplay is to play solo through the slog of unchallenging story quests for dozens of hours in FFXIV, Ark Online, BDO, New World and others.
Still, a few modern games, not MMO's, have invoked that childlike exploring and curiosity for me: Outer Wilds, Tunic, and to an extent, Death Stranding. I beat Outer Wilds over a year ago, I'm 32, and I still think of my experiences in that game on almost a weekly basis. It's frustratingly memorable, I'm wishing I could forget it so I could play through again fresh.
I played EverQuest on Project99 for a few months recently and honestly, I did feel some of that magic. I went in with the intention of not reading any wikis or forums, and all the players I met were so friendly! It was always "Oh you don't know where that city is? Follow me, I'll show you!" or "Hey, I see you're taking a lot of damage. Here, try this shield!". I have no idea how the population was like beyond the few areas I saw, but it really felt like the perfect setting for anyone who wants to pretend it's 1999 and jump into an MMO completely blind.
Also, it really warms my heart that this is the third mention of Outer Wilds I've seen in this comment section. That game is just so, so wonderful and special.
ME TOO, back then everything was NEW, gaming was new, online was new, online gaming was new, gaming PC's were new, and to first experience that all while everything was new was just AMAZING> And doing it all on Dial up 56k was awesome lol, then upgrading to DLS, EPIC>
The only mistake this video def made is saying it was because life was "Better" and not just accommodating.
For many mmo players, they got into their first game because of the exact opposite. Life was terrible for them. Be it lack of friends or fulfilling goals, they needed an escape. Mmos provided all that and then some at the click of a button.
Hell, I'm sure we've all met people that can flat out admit their guild mates were at one point the highlight of their days, or their mentors that gave them reasons to live.
Now that veteran players have passed the chapter in their life and must look at mmos as video games instead of social portals, is it really a surprise things were just "better" back then.
I remember my first guild, LegendZ, the guild I joined because it was accomodating to newbies back in Dragonball Online, I played it back in 2013 as a 14 and could figure out how to play japanese games without understanding a single word, one of my favourite memories from that game was me and my guild mates getting together for a mock ingame wedding with our guild master and vice master, after that my voice guild leader said since she would play the game less and the guild would probably disband that she would get the members cash items as a last hurrah, I asked if I could a Yardrat Costume as I thought it was both not very expensive and cool looking since I already had sunglasses, Loved that costume after that and I wore it from that point onward after the guild disbanded and until the servers closed but I didn't care I even had old guildmates ask if I wanted to join our friend guild Uprising but I wanted to stay a vagrant,
I think I was lv 45 by the time the guild disbanded because after I had gotten to lv 50 and leveling up got harder I decided to hang around low level areas and help new players and low level players, I had a pet that could party teleport as a skill which helped players get to areas for quest since I could teleport and fly at the time so I could bring the practically anywhere but I simply helped them with quests that had them fighting super bosses at the low levels to make it easier for them as i could pull the aggro yet also dodge hits since I was so much higher leveled I continued with this mindset into other games like Digimon Masters online where once I got high enough I would spend my free time logging on just helping people, i like to think I made their day a little better in both games, i don't play mmos much anymore as I just can't get into them anymore but that's fine I'll come back when something calls to me(Blue Protocal)
I know this is an old comment on an old video but what you said resonated a lot. I began playing Guild Wars 2 when life was downright unbearable and it was that escape route and the people I met on there who literally inspired me to keep getting up every single day that made it so much fun. Achieving something together felt meaningful and significant.
Now that chapter has long past and I got my life in order, and I can barely enjoy the game. Those people have stopped playing, and I don't feel I get anything out of it anymore.
@@lunahemera6387 Glad you got to share. Might be a bit old but hell, people stumble across these type of videos all the time. You really got no clue how many people will scroll across comments like these and walk away with newfound perspective.
TLDR: You're depressed and dead inside now
World in constant financial crisis for the last 10 years, global lockdown due to the covid pandemic, even kids today are not as carefree as we used to be, they can't even go out for a walk today without wearing a mask for example. This makes for a very different setting than the one we lived in 10-15 years ago.
Staph.
He depressed me about the dating talk. I always wondered why other women couldn't interest me like my first. And honestly, I don't even want to date again because I feel like it will never be like the first one I was with. Maybe I'm that way with MMO's too. None have recaptured the magic I had with WoW. I feel like it's foolish to even try. I'm not going to waste time and money on other MMO's (or not even modern WoW).
I mean, that's true for me, lol.
exactly
This is a big true. It’s literally the ability to play uninterrupted for 12-15 hours with 0 responsibilities that allows you to escape and live in the world. Most of us who are older now; wives, children, jobs, homes, etc. You can’t fall into the world as deep when these things are constantly taking you out. As I’m writing this my wife literally asked me to help her do something. I can’t even write a comment lol
100%!
I managed to life like that until a year ago and now it's hard to imagine ever finding so much time again.
Lol same bro, same... *cries while vacuuming*
Yep, true. And now I have to go to work.
/cry
ya but our parents fell into those games while raising us
our lifestyle hasn't changed
inflation has forced us to give up some of our hobbies to stay alive.
100% this! my MMO career now basically boils down to just doing mundane solo things, because I can never get 15 uninterrupted minutes to do any kind of group content.
You are absolutely spot on about the outside lifestyle being the bigger influence. I have gone back to playing the game I left in 2004, Everquest, because I reconnected with someone I played with back then and he enticed me to try it again. I even went back to my old server, Firiona Vie. And, there was a much smaller guild than in the past, but a regular night of grouping if only for a couple hours. We expanded to a couple other grouping nights to fit our schedules and linked up with another diminished guild for a regular grouping session. It rekindled the joy in the game because of the people. I've rolled up new characters as well as dusting off some of the old characters I had (some had gotten a 'bump' to level 85). I have been enjoying playing again, but it much much smaller time blocks than I did years ago.
The game has changed, yes, and a lot of the early levels are heaps easier, but it's still possible (as a subscriber) to "level-lock" after you hit 51. The reason for the leveling being faster is a legitimate development decision. The producers of the game want to get players into the new content, the new expansions you pay for. Thus, the time-to-level is to get into the higher levels is roughly the same as it was when the level cap was lower. I'm not sure if the leveling curve is the same on progression servers as it is on 'normal' servers or if they're toned down as well as having content locked until certain marks are hit, either time or population related.
Best moment: Warhammer online, defending a keep with only 11 people against 100+ for over 4 hours.
Eh Warhammer online was decent, but really had a bunch of issues with being quite stale. I think another issue was balance, and I think your comment kind of touches on the balance issue.
Dude yess
@@MsHojat Balance wasn't a problem, I had 3 accounts. 1 with all chars maxed out, best gear. 2 with random chars i leveld and deleted over and over again to enjoy t2 and 3 while helping out newbs organizing pvp groups. 3 with t1 twinks fully kitted out. So I have a quite clear understanding of the balance between the factions and classes. And while it never was perfect, it was perfectly serviceable at all times even when people were complaining 247 about supposedly broken classes. Most balance complaints came from people getting outplayed without them noticing. Even the whole faction number imbalance stemmed from people following blindly a few videos/threads proclaiming order as overpowered. So overall quite standard for an mmo.
Stale content, well it was a mixed bag with quite a lot stale pve quests that I couldn't agree more but pvp quests and pvp in general I found really entertaining. Sadly mythic put the game on the back burner directly after release and the skeleton crew focused on the wrong priorities, so it never got the content it deserved to have more of.
Warhammer Online is alive and totally free to play on the Return of Reckoning server.
When I was a kid, riding my bike in the street with my friends was the most amazing and fun thing ever. They just don't make good bikes anymore.
this literally shows his hypocrisy and stupidity. bikes haven't actually gotten worse. they got better. however, games today have actually gotten worse. dumbed down to fit a wider audience. look at New World from amazon. They promise one thing, then realized it was too niche for profits. So they completely changed their minds and took the game into a new direction. A generic direction. which proves video creator is a moron.
@@goblinphreak2132 Yea No.
@@goblinphreak2132 Whooooosh!
@@ProbablyFilth games are getting worse with being easier like mmo on moblie with auto attack/walking without even trying and buying mount/outfits without grinding for it or adding bots in games like fortnite or coming out with AAA game being broken like fallout 77 , cyberpunk , anthem , WWE 2K20 , Warcraft III: Reforged , Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 5 and so on ....... every decade more AAA Games come out broken
You mean kids used to actually go outside to play?! What planet are you from?
This may hold true for some people but for me its something else.
As a kid I was limited to 1 hour of computer time a day and I had no friends, currently as an adult I could dedicate 8-10 hours or more a day to games while stuck inside if I wanted and I have a tight group of friends to play them with but I'm not getting the enjoyment I once had.
A huge part of why old MMOs felt so great was because the world was full of mystery. Playing your first MMO as a kid before UA-cam and streaming you didn't know what to expect in this massive world. You were used to playing single player games with maybe the occasional LAN or online if you were lucky. The idea that thousands of other people from around the world were all playing with you was novel for the time.
Jumping into an MMO now cant capture that feeling because you have reviews, UA-cam videos and streamers spoiling it for you. You've got all the information and secret about the game one google search away. You know how MMOs work and you've been playing online games for years.
The Mystery is gone and it wont come back. Its really sad but at least those of us that experienced it can look back on the memories we made fondly. I feel bad for the newer generations who wont be able to experience things like old MMOs and the old internet.
They can't spoil the game for you if you don't watch the videos.
10000% this. Its the mystery, the adventure, the desire to explore untouched territory. Now every streamer with a prereleased copy launches a full review and easter eggs in 10 secs 10 months before launch date. RUnescape, all you had was the online forums, that you had to UNLOCK to figure out how to do certain quests. World of Warcraft was a completely different beast entirely. Wizard101 was also really good at this, as the only hints you had were on forums. I think we can recapture the MMO landscape if an MMO companies straight up Ban ingame footage on youtube. Therefore, you are stuck only using forums and your brain.
same story, same feels, except I had 3 hours instead of one
You also have more jerks playing and bullying the noobs when they are trying to learn about the game(s) they are playing and not wanting to rely on wiki or UA-cam. It sucks because the jerks take all the fun out of it. I play Wizard101 and am a high level and even though I am at 115 there are jerks who STILL call me a noob or jump into the battles and try to tell you how to play because they think others are idiots. It's really stupid and idiotic. I help those who need help and am nice to everyone who is respectful. That is how it should be. Play like you are a kid. Not like you are a bossy little jerk.
@ it can because everyone else watches the videos and force it upon you.
That feeling you mentioned...returning from school and turning on the old pc... I've been chasing that feeling for the last couple decades...
Everything's gone meta now. I just want to pick up the most fun looking weapon I find and then die a hundred times at the first miniboss because I CAN. That's my idea of fun, bumbling around and realizing a week into the game that a ranger doesn't do sword and board.
I sincerely feel that this is your most relatable video ever. Almost like a poem by Shane Koyczan.
"you're looking to the future hoping to recapture the past."
this hits deep. why'd you go and give me an existential crisis while talking about MMOs?😥
we look to the future because we want something new that provides a challenge. when you make the same game over and over and never expand upon it, it becomes easy. worse when you simplify a game to make it easy to hit a wider audience. we want to recapture the past by having a game that is a challenge, that presents a fun experience. new games cannot do this. because they aren't fun and they don't present a challenge. worse, give a child today who loves pokemon, the old red/blue version. they will quit saying its too hard. guaranteed. ive seen it plenty of times with family members and friends who have kids. they don't like hard games. so how do you make money when kids today aren't forced into that challenge? you make it easy. which is why today's games suck.
The only way to fully enjoy an MMORPG again is to look at Key Factors:
#1 Finding a group of people that keep you coming back to the game. People that you can create awesome new memories.
#2 Try to enjoy each game as it is, instead of trying to chase the past. Instead of trying to find ways it's similar to your Old Love....find ways it Differs so it becomes NEW Love.
#3 Be realistic about how much time you can realistically devote to said MMORPG. An then look for games that you can speed through (Having a subscription to STar Wars: The Old Republic will get you to Max Level REAL quick). That or find a game where you feel may give you lots of smaller reward, instead of a BIG reward that may take 10+ hours to get into. To know what Epic Fights/Dungeons that you'll have time for or not.
#4 Think about what you really want and need from an MMORPG. Are you someone who kept playing fantasy titles, because of your OG MMORPGs, but maybe want to try something free? Do you need a game where you do NOT need to subscribe to have fun, or be FPS without too much of a Fee to Play? Do you want type of people might you want to play with?
Try to find all those different variables that makes a game Fun and Fulfilling as well. Both Short AND Long Term.
@@goblinphreak2132 I agree that a lot of AAA games are dumbed down, but there are plenty of games that aren't. Sure, some of 'today's games' suck, but guess what? So did a lot of games 20 years ago. There has never been a shortage of terrible videogames, and I wish people would stop acting like it was some recent development. If you don't like simplified mainstream videogames (which is understandable) then don't play them, its literally that simple. At no point in the history of videogames have you been more spoiled for choice.
ua-cam.com/video/BTQj__dZ_Ng/v-deo.html
Time to find...a new genre to play.
As someone who's played MMOs for nearly twenty years - starting in his 30s as a married man with an established career - the biggest change I've seen in the genre is the change from just having fun to chasing the achievements. At its core, MMOs are about cooperation with an online family; when the bar for success is low-to-moderate, you don't have to be picky about who's in that family. Maybe your solid performer won't play without his low-performing wife; in a low-bar scenario, that's okay. But when you're chasing achievements and legendary modes, suddenly, you have to start excluding people and the "clench factor" for those who remain goes up. Instead of relaxing with a few drinks, now you need to be wired and have your shit together.
So what happens when you're a hardcore player who suddenly develops age-related disabilities? You're tossed out on the side of the road. "Sorry man, hope you get better, but we can't carry you anymore." That hurts. And it further hurts when you go to a social guild with some moderate success that's constantly losing its best people to progression guilds, because you're little more than a feeder guild. At a point in time, you realize that the sense of belonging and comradery you had has been lost, because of pointless achievements and gear reskins that people think are so important.
Achievements ( as a design system ) are very damaging to the games we play today, especially mmo/virtual worlds type because they ( as well as many other design decisions ) take away yet one more decision from the player - the decision to decide on what is an achievement for me. That is a very big decision, game defining in a sand box type of a game i would say and its taken away by some arbitrary system that tells me what is and what isnt worth doing, its basically a system that tells me what is fun and what is not ... and thats scary. And as you said - it can even spark some toxic situations between players that want to play together.
Spot on I’ve been playing mmos since my mid 20s and I was always working. My best memories are from Everquest and Daoc cause those games make you have to work together. New mmos are single player games with other people in them. The old mechanics are outdated and qol is nice but some of it is just silly and too much.
True. With all the mechanics, different builds, and stuff you have to play MMORPG as your second Job to get ahead. I remember playing Lineage 2 and even though was grindy AF, it was fairly easy and straightforward to play. If you want gear, just logging in once in a while to your clan, play sieges on weekends, and some small raid parties used to be enough to get the gear. Hell, my dad and I got up to grade A equipment (when S was the highest one) all by ourselves in like 3 characters, and we just had fun killing mobs and spoiling them for mats. Now the grind is boring AF, since all you do is repeat the same dungeons hoping RNJesus gives you the piece you are looking for. It's much more fun when you had a "to-do list" to get the item you wanted.
Recipe: Check
Key Mats: Check
A gazillion normal Mats: Check
=
Profit.
For me. I think it's the social structure. MMO's are pretty toxic now.
@@Dev003x I agree. I was a raider in wow in top 150 guild at some point. Then the guild disbanded because leadership got bored. Suddenly I was going to guilds with much lower rank and being scapegoated into being "the one who holds progression back" not because I was a bad player, but because every guild I joined had the inner clique who "can do no bad" and outsiders who were assigned the worst jobs and blamed for everything. I tried 3 guilds until I called it quits, seeing the same pattern over and over and again. I tried to be nice, helpful, cooperative, do the "b* jobs" to climb the social ladder, to not avail. I was ditched 3 times after months of loyalty, 2 times at the very last boss of the current raid, which I then killed with another guild proving myself I can do it... but I was sick and tired proving people I'm not a donkey and being told times and times again "yknow you're actually a donkey, bye".
My SO quit not so long after, again the guild disbanded due to officer burn out and the saddest farewell people told to the guild was "shame we're disbanding, this was the only guild without people being homophobic, transphobic, women haters, n-word spammers or making anal jokes". Then I realized how low has the bar sunk. I guess I'm too old to mesh with the "cool kids" anymore.
Every MMO ive played in the last few years was just a solo experience with other people running around. I remember playing DDO back in the early 2010s and in every tavern was full of people, all talking in chat and trying to get things going. People were wayyyy more interactive with eachotehr back then and i dont know what changed.
we optimized the fun out of the game.
Kelpy G you hit the nail on the head! I completely agree. In addition, I don't think it's a "your life sucks" as Josh seems to constantly hammer home, it's that games are designed significantly differently in that you're the hero now, a God like entity that no longer really requires a group to do things, that interaction has been engineered out of gaming is just sad.
for me its time. i dont have the time i did back then to wait around in a tavern or in a city to find a group.
Have you tried playing FFXIV? Things are going on 24/7 here. And I'm not some young first time MMO player. I played Everquest before PoF, when Yakeshas were the end all be all of weapons. You just have to put yourself out there. I mean, ESO actually has people RPing in taverns all over the place, and often.
People still gather in the taverns, they just talk to their friends, of which you are not....
well, here is mine, well, two of mine, both from swg:
first, moving in one of the bus planet, and made the mistake of putting on the master tailor title. the next 30 minutes was almost enough to move 30 meters. got bombarded constantly with requests of cloth. the last guy was in a search of a tailor for a ring, or to be precise, two rings, for an ig wedding, talked about a few minutes, while made the rings and renamed them for the two participants name. when was the last time you bought rings for weddings in an mmo from an other player, and not from an ig irl money using store?
Second is similar, someone from a chat asked for bunch of cloth, told him to go to my house (more option with the proper tools and we can trade the items to try on) than for nearly 30 minute, he try various cloth, asks for ideas and combos for colors and designs, literally like an actual shopping, it was an almost true rpg event, not just a bs-ing for best armor stat and moving on.When was the last time you went on shopping useless items to look cool, not from the ig irl money using store, but from an other player.
Oh, man, you brought tears to my eyes when you were describing the joy of playing in early childhood, jumping into bed when the sun rises through window and you realize that is already morning and you have 2 hours of sleep before school. It hit me with memories of almost 20 years ago, me and my guild playing Ragnarok Online.
Nah, I have more friends now than back then when I was lonely as hell and depressed, yet I am not having fun now, especially not while playing with my friends who just focus on doing checklists and stupid mobile game-like chores. But you are right, its not the game. Not me either. Its the way we play these games. We watch Twitch and UA-cam videos about the game, absorb all the info and perfect strats, and then just work on "finishing" the game. Back then, when you played Everquest, you were lost. We can't go back to that time, information is thrown at us and you can't escape it, and games are designed now around you having absorbed all this info anyway. Thats why to this day the most fun you will have with a MMORPG is on launch day for the first few hours before everyone figured everything out already. You can still relive those glory days.. . For about 5 hours on a game's launch. After that, you go on UA-cam, you go on Twitch, you go on Discord and its information overload, no more secrets, no more thinking required, just do what this dude or that guide say, check off the tasks, and thats it. And even if YOU ignore that stuff, your friends and 90% of the playerbase won't, so it still affects you. When you join a group to finish a dungeon, you better already know everything in that dungeon or the group will hate you. No social interaction required, its all about efficiency. And that's why MMORPGs are your part time jobs now, not games.
THANK GOD. FINALLY. IVE BEEN SAYING THIS AND MORE FOR YEARS. THANK GOD SOMEONE FINALLY GETS IT. There is even more to what you say, trust me. You are correct though.
bruh, just dont watch those guide, explore at your own will
@@AvgiEfexis You clearly dont understand then. Its a community game. Sure, it may help with his personal experience just slightly, but it makes a huge difference when the whole population is fixated on knowing and doing things perfectly and getting to end-game as fast as possible.
Take Classic WoW for example, in some guilds they FORCED you to get world buffs to raid or you'd either get kicked from the raid or even the guild. Didn't use DeadlyBossMods? Better to fill that slot with someone who has it. Didn't use questie to level up as fast as possible? Then, "you're playing the game wrong".
No matter what way you look at it, being bombarded with information is the WORST thing you can do to an MMO community.
@@poisonated7467 maybe i play mmo differently than most people, i casually play them with my friends, my knowledge came from them telling me personally and vice versa, we don't really watch or read guides and strats to be perfect, bcs it feels more like a chore than having fun, we don't really play to be the top, we just.. idk having fun exploring together. i guess your perspective about how to play mmo and friend group that you play with matters too.
at the end of the day, some people like the current state mmorpg and some people don't, and that's fine, just enjoy it our own way.
@@AvgiEfexis I would encourage you to go try the private server Project 1999 for Everquest then. I think it will change your mind on MMOs, but besides that P99 recaptured my love for MMOs after playing WoW for 15 years. WoW was my first and favorite MMO. P99 EQ took that spot within two weeks of playing it. It taught me a TON about MMO game design and game design in general. Oh, and bring some friends along because the world of Norrath isn't so forgiving. =)
Alternative video title "why you will never be that happy again"
You helped me understand , get a realize of the pure reason of my old times that i had so fun,
i was knows that but not so clearly like now.
Thanks!
To a certain extent, I agree that older games are not necessarily "better" games. However, the argument that this is because of changes in our individual lives is not accurate either. As others have pointed out, some people actually have more free time now than they did when playing the old school MMO of their choice back in the day. In my opinion, the problem with MMOs is largely tied to a greater cultural shift that has occurred beyond gaming.
The entire world is increasingly about instant gratification. The focus is on the destination, not the journey. The MMOs of 20 years ago reflected a different time in our entire culture, in which the internet was still relatively new and everything occurred at a far slower pace (again, not just talking about video games here). I believe that the reason people feel so passionate and nostalgic for those early MMOs is because they represent a unique period in human history; the internet was now something stable and prevalent enough that we could play in persistent online worlds with hundreds or thousands of other people, but the internet culture had not yet become the cynical tool that it is today.
So yes, I also long for the old days of MMOs. I fondly remember logging in just to explore a random part of the world or to hang out in town with friends. We *existed* in these early online gaming worlds in a way that we do not now. This, I believe, is the core of the nostalgia people feel for those games. They weren't just "games". So yes, the modern MMOs may objectively be better "games", but they cannot hold a candle to the experience of existing in a living, breathing fantasy world.
Wise words! I support your oponion. It is like people's nostalgia about 80's or 90''s. It was all about the journey, not the goal.
MMOs changed but we’re missing the part that we changed too.
Great post.
I was chewing on many of the same points you mentioned while watching. I'm glad you've written this to communicate a counterpoint to the videos ideas.
Many years have past..................but, I STILL remember the quintessential moment in gaming: Warcraft, some 10 years ago. The scene, a dungeon run. A group of hardcore players, talking in game about the challenging run to be made and.................wait for it.................. here comes "Leeroy Jenkins" !!!!!
@@SephirusOakborn retrowave!!! i love soo much synth! my lately years get a eletronic music to pure synth retro vapor waves styles... is much more fun than the new shithole outthere
My husband and I started playing mmo’s in our 30’s. We had full time jobs, a child, our own home, dogs, a cat and even a horse. Lots of responsibilities. We started playing WoW with our son in 2005 and the magic of that game pulled us in just as it did those of you who were younger without all those responsibilities. So it’s not solely due to age/level of outside responsibilities! We still play mmo’s today, but I agree the magic of those early days is gone.
I started playing video games back in the early 80's. In college I really got into MUD's. I use to run a BBS and had turn based games people could play against each other. Everything was so new and exciting. Today that newness is gone. Do not get me wrong, I love playing games like Black Desert Online, Guild Wars 2, The Elder Scrolls, etc - but they are all kind of the same. Been there done that. Shoot, I remember when playing my Sublogic Flight sim on my TRS-80 was so exciting with its 5 FPS and maybe 100 x 100 resolution in the stunning color of white on black. Man, that was sooo fun.
UO, EQ, AO, AC, The Realm, Meridian 59 ALL Came out during a time when talking to people on the internet was a new and exciting thing. We may have grown up and have busy lives now but the entire sociology of interacting with people on the internet has changed and the strata of that is something MMOs fall under.
This so much. People tend to point at the lack of social interactions in modern MMOs, or the microtransactions, or the "dumbing down" of the game, and sure each of those are factors along with many other in-game things, but the biggest factor that goes under the hood is internet culture in general... Online culture has changed DRASTICALLY over the last 10 to 15 years, and the early MMO's all flourished when online culture, and especially gaming culture, was a lot less min-maxy, a lot less toxic (still toxic but not as much), and in general just a more chill mindset...
I agree, the possibilities of the internet and online gaming were new to me. I got my first internet provider for Diablo 1, and I can remember my excitement to be able to chat with people from all around the world for the first time. Today I'm used to it.
As for the genre of MMO, I've kind of seen it. It was new, it was fun, but it got boring after a few 1000 hours. I moved on. I still enjoy playing online with my friends, but I don't need a giantic community to communicate with.
@@Andreas_42 As I always say while waving my hand "I've slayed the mightiest dragons and I've saved the prettiest princesses."
That is such great point. I was about 11 years old when EQ came out, and I distinctly remember it being one of the very first things I ever did on the internet. In fact online gaming is what made the whole concept of having internet make sense to me. There wasn't a lot to do on the world wide web for a kid in the 90s. I had just recently been introduced to the AOL Instant Messenger, so you can imagine that firing up EQ and being able to instantly communicate with other people's avatars IN A VIRTUAL WORLD blew my mind. I have no doubt that this greatly amplified my enjoyment.
I have many good memories playing The Realm. The vast differences of each social circle, the level of community, and the journey to 1k..
Every PVE MMO got worse after competition between the players appears. Gearscore, ratings, statistics, damage meters, ratios, first kills, greed for best gear etc..
I really love this video. My favourite part is where you mention being honest with yourself and making changes to your life. It reminds me of when I first started seeing a therapist several years ago and started talking about how I felt about myself and my life. When you are not happy with yourself, it will leak through every aspect of your life including how you feel about video games. It's very difficult to find enjoyment in anything if your motivation is to distract yourself from your personal problems and jumping from one thing to another looking for the "best" distraction.
I've done a lot of work on myself to develop a healthy self-esteem and to create a life for myself that I am happy with, and from that I find that I have more fun playing video games nowadays than I did in the past. It's definitely true that your lifestyle plays a huge role! There's too many games to choose from that it can't be possible that they are all bad.
Good video - reminds me how much better my life is now and how that carries over to everything including the video games I play :)
I realized that I enjoy games more when I stopped looking at trailers/leaks. My initial love of MMORPGS came from the sense of discovery. Many games these days are "ruined" because most of the playerbase knows the entire game before they even play it.
Yea that mentality kinda drove me out of enjoying many mmo too... Want to tackle some new content? just a few minutes after someone declares that someone else comes arround with a guide how to beat that content... not to mention to constantly getting told off for not playing "optimized"....
Personal player knowledge becomes worthless as long as it is not considered top of the world class as everyone has easy access to pretty much all info they need through some streamer or guide maker, making the only apreciated skills come down to reaction speed and being good at following guides/orders....
I still have fun like i had in the past in a selected few games.... but not cause the games are exactly good but cause i found likeminded players who stay away from all out of game info sources like they are some sort of plague, bringing back the experience of discovery and diverse guild roles
Not everyone was a teenager when MMO's first came out, and not everyone is looking through rose-coloured spectacles. That's a massive over-simplification. I enjoy many aspects of newer mmo's but there's a lot to be said for the immersive slowburn nature of older mmo's.
This... while watching this video all I could think of was "There were a ton of middle-aged guys in classic WoW... People past their prime just like some of us are now." If the true reason was indeed our life, then this exact same argument would be valid for EVERY SINGLE MEDIUM OF ENTERTAINMENT.
Exactly. I came into RPGs with Neverwinter Nights back in the day and love D&D. Everquest 2 was my first MMO and I started playing it a few months after launch after having watched my daughter play. I was in my 40s then, and I still play it from time to time because after being away for a while I start to miss it. It's not just nostalgia, I love the class system and the complexity of the gameplay. You actually have to think and not just spam abilities. (sadly the game has been dumbed down over the years and is no longer the same as it was in the start, but still fun) What I don't like about many of the newer MMOs is the "pick any ability and play how you want" type of gameplay. Still, I have enjoyed some of them, like RIFT. Guild Wars 2 is quite fun for a while too, but then I get bored. Something is lacking, and I'm not sure what.
Yeah. Saying "People do not enjoy *genre*, because they do not have time" is the same as "people do not play games/do not read books, because they lack time"
@@gegamst7323 One of the biggest ones for me is the ability to completely respec/rebuild your character in most MMO's(RPG's in general?) How can you develop love or hate for your choice of build if you're evicted from a group/dungeon etc because you're not the FOTM efficiency build and can't even make the case to other people in the game. It was one of the things that spoiled D3 for me, why replay what you've already sampled and don't really care about.
@@MahBones This hurts... I pride myself on being fairly quick to figure out more optimal playstyles. Often times when I look up what's efficient, I find out i've been doing that very thing already apart from maybe a small choice here or there, which are actually more efficient for ME because they cater to my playstyle better. So I'm usually not the target of this sort of shit.
BUT, when people tell others what spells to use, what talents/perks to choose, what gear to grind for, it REAL:LY breaks the feel that an mmo is supposed to give you... It sucks! I often defend another right to figure it out for themselves, even when they've already been kicked or banned from group/guild, and I've been banned from multiple guilds in multiple games for defending them as such...
I was in love with Classic WoW, because it was the first MMO I played - and I played it on Christmas when I was 12 years old.
After that christmas my parents broke up and my family has been broken. I am 27 years old, when I see the Dwarf starting zone, I can almost feel the warm loving feeling of family. Coldridge Valley is a time capsule that has captured a moment in time, a specific memory from my childhood - when everything was perfect.
I only made it until level 40 before my parents broke up.
And I've realized everytime I pickup Classic WoW, i start getting bored and losing interest around level 40... I don't do it on purpose, it just naturally happens.
This really hit me. I think as men internalize mental anguish and it comes out in odd ways like you described. I just wanted you to know that this story made me feel, and I hope you find happiness.
@@Tim99GT thanks man. Yeah I’ve found happiness throughout all the “stuff” of life.
For sure. I can still conjure that same feeling when thinking of playing vanilla almost 20 years ago. However when I boot up Classic I feel nothing but boredom.
Life is crazy in so many unexpected ways brother, keep the fire burning. Age is just a number, don't get caught with the things that this society is pushing in our face.
I'll never forget the feeling I had when I played my first MMO. Everything felt so new, the possibilities felt endless and magical and making friends in it was super cool. I spent a long time after the magic wore off trying to find the next thing that could capture the sense of wonder and excitement that game first gave me (though never did quit the first) and it just never existed. It took a lot of games to finally realize that I really WON'T be able to have that first experience again, because being the first was what made it special. The closest I've come to replicating that experience was when I finally got into FFXIV and made tons of new friends and saw similar world building and map designs to the ones that had captured my interest in the first place.
I think once you come to accept that it's a LOT easier to actually have fun and get into what they offer now, as opposed to chasing old ghosts that just can't be re-created.
Great vid!
I'm about to start my first mmo. I am a console player and I only love campaign games. I usually play games for their story. But I want to give multiplayer like mmos a chance cause they look awesome. Please can you recommend fun one that have friendly people on it.
@@Alex_M.R92 Guild Wars 2 has a lot of focus on story, very friendly and helpful players, and a wide variety of content. The base game is free to play, so if you don't like it, at least you didn't waste any money, but if you do like it, the expansions are reasonably priced.
@@Shinigami41395 will give it a try. Thanks
To me, there are 2 things that killed MMO's.
1 - Group finders and cross server grouping. That alone, imho, killed the server communities. while it maximize the time you are playing, when you join a group, no one talks for the most part. Back then, since the rest of your group was on the same server, you'd chat because we shared the same world. you built relationships. it made it so you were involved as much in the game as in the community.
2 - The advent of discord. I love discord, but the last few times i tried wow, basically the guild was more or less a guild since people formed groups and used discord to chat making the guild chat pretty much dead. it's not the only reason, nor is it universal, but it did have an adverse effect in that regard.
Most mmorpgs suck.
When WoW was at its peak, all competition was mediocre. Now WoW is still on top, but it is run by corporate shills who don't care about consumer satisfaction, but rather how to best ride the fine line of people barely purchasing the product instead of long term player retention.
Discord didn't kill guild chat, Blizzard did. The game has been devoid of community since mid cata, and had been getting worse. Discord at least provided an outlet for those who wanted 'something'. Bottom line is that Blizzard had and still has the power to design the game differently, but they wont.
I agree with #1.
Especially in WoW the normal dungeons during leveling are either way to easy or you run them like 5 bln times already, so people expect you to know what you're doing and do it as quick as possible. It usually takes 10 minutes to run this dungeon with no deaths, so everything else is someone elses fault. Unfortunatly that translates to raiding as well..everything besides the last raid is "child's play" and shouldn't be hard at all. I remember, when I tried to come back for Cataclysm and wanted to join a lower tier raid, all groups demanded gear from the next two raid-tiers.
There's a joke in WoW's trade chat that I see on rare occasion: WTB friends
Buying GF, 40 gp. Pls respond.
the worst feeling is when you watch guide on yt and i says you need a friend to do it.....
This should be every guild's name
@@SkunaDaGreen Or when you just bought a new game and find out that its "best played with friends."
They should participate in a friends GDKP
My wife and I got married in WoW the week after we did irl. Our guild did it in a raid night, even awarding DKP (was during classic) if you showed up dressed properly and such. The raid leader even had us line up and stuff and read our vows, like a real wedding. I'll never forget that!
@ISCARI0T its not cringe at all. Let people enjoy things! I've been to multiple in game weddings in many games and its quite fun! If it makes them happy, let them be!
@ISCARI0T cringe wasn't a term and circa 2005 these games weren't full of normies
I remember when I played Everquest and they came out with the "Legacy" servers. The idea was that you'd play through the content from scratch, much like what WoW is doing with the classic servers. The primer/press release said something very poignant. "These servers are set up to give players new to the game the chance to experience the content in a way that's new to them but that hooked so many players into our world. Though, we know these servers are anticipated by the older player base, please be aware that you will likely not relive the experience you first had in Everquest. Much like you can't relive your first kiss..."
I am likely butchering the quote and am paraphrasing from a memory that's around 13 years old, at a guess. It really struck me how accurate the sentiment was. "You can't relive your first kiss." You can kiss the same lips but you can't have that butterfly, nervous, scared, hopeful, excited, anticipation again. You can't understand something and learn it at the same time. (Not usually anyway.) That feeling of conquering the game from scratch is something so important. To set a personal goal for yourself, 'I want to be this and have that and do these things and join that group and...." and then meet it or exceed it. That starting out of "Where do I go? How do I do that? What should I do? That thing killed me!? That item dropped?!!" and all the rest *is* the experience. It is the distillment of fun. The people you'll meet and befriend or hate. The love you'll fall into with the world, the character, the players, and the whole. It can't be recaptured.
I fully agree that the world you live in outside of the world you play it is so, so important. I still remember the joys of playing Everquest with my friends. The coming home from college or work and playing until I should have been in bed hours prior. The ISP kicking me off every night at the same time for about 15 minutes while they cleared out their cache. The hours spent on Alahkazam (I never did memorize how to spell that URL). There is just so much to list. Those moments of elation when I got something awesome. (I used to play on the Test Server. I still count the night I had a Developer give my dual-boxed characters the titles "Fiction the Sinful (The rogue) and Salvint the Sinless (The cleric)" as one of the most amazing nights of my life. I was shaking in tears happy.
I know that's lame to a whole lot of people but to me, in that moment, I was infinite. (To quote PoBaWF) (I actually had their names changed to "Fiction the Myth" and "Salvint the Savior" for RP reasons that I won't go into because that's even more embarrassing.) Those little events where you checked a box that many dream of checking but never do are what makes the game. Having it be difficult or rare can make the experience more impactful, for certain, but there's so much more to it. Having those around you who appreciate your excitement and joy. Those who helped you gain those things that made you so happy. Having the time and lacking distractions to really dive into things. All of it, all of it together makes for the magic. The magic that, sadly, most of us will never recapture. Though to throw out a couple quotes...
"Don't be sad that it's over, be glad that it happened at all."
"A man never enters the same river twice. For it is not the same river and he is not the same man..."
May all of your gaming and real-life experiences be as magical as you wish them to be!
Author Thomas Wolfe said "You can never go home again" and he was right.
But he lacked vision, and a temporal discombobulator
I can whip up some macaroni and play Donkey Kong but I won't have quite the level of glee and not have a care in the world.
One of the biggest problems in MMOs today - you're playing them alone.
Social people who still manage to make friends in games, despite modern design not being conducive to that, are the ones still enjoying themselves.
I used to make tons of friends in MMOs, but after playing final fantasy 14 for over a year I made like one acquaintance. However, I've made a dozen friends just from chatting with people in post-match chat in Brawlhalla; people who then want to play other games with me. I'm the same guy with the same lifestyle, so it's a hard sell that it's me and not how MMOs are now. Dungeon finder groups with randos who treat you like an NPC that you never see again after the dungeon is over is NOT how it used to be, and I firmly believe it's killing the social experience of the MMO; which is the most memorable and emotional element of them. I'm not sure why people are so intent on minimizing or dismissing that reality.
I remember FFXIV before dungeon finder was implemented. It hollowed out all of my enjoyment of the game. Can't get a group of people together to do anything because everyone is using the finder. I gave up on it after heavensgard because if I wanted to play a single player game I can go play single player games. Which is what I have done.
Preach brother! It's not that we have less time, it's that everyone around seems to be in a hurry to do their stuff as efficient as possible, making friends is harder when people have the "less talking more killing" mindset. I got scolded several times in group content because I took few seconds pause to type a reply to a whisper, guild message or party message... "Go already, what are you waiting for" etc.
I used to play SWG and to travel to another planet you had to take a shuttle. Well, that shuttle have a 10 minute wait between them so if you ran up as the shuttle was leaving, you had a 10 minute wait for the next one.
I met several of my now lifetime friends just standing there waiting on the damn bus!
SLOW DOWN!
@@ivylilybasket Yeah, I agree completely - they actually put downtime in games in the past SO people would have a chance to socialize, and while it may have been too much in some games.. I think it was definitely important to the social experience.
This is the #1 reason modern MMOs aren't as good. Dungeon finder killed WoW too, and the trend today is toward solo and instanced content almost exclusively. People are divided into little social ghettos that never interact with each other and which aren't visible in the world itself. It's always really depressing to me that a game called "Guild Wars 2" has no guild wars, or really any guild interaction at all.
I gotta say the one thing I miss about older MMORPGs, that you see a lot less now, is the ability for all players at all levels of the game to be involved.
Take Ultima or Ragnarok Online, for instance. As a low-level player I couldn't join end-game dungeons, sure. But I could still gather useful resources, and sell them to higher level players to make my money. I would still be wanted in guilds because gathering resources and money and selling stuff at the market and so forth were all very valuable, communal tasks that even a newbie can assist with. I would help my clans win clan battles by sitting back home making healing potions or whatever. You had many ways to participate and progress.
My problem with MMORPGs now is how many have the "theme park" experience like you described in other videos. Where you are experiencing the exact same SOLO gameplay as everybody else, killing the same number of random animals for the same quest NPC, and there's no robust market or other features in the game to keep your attention. You are just on a slog from level 1 to level 100 so you can finally join the end-game raids. It's like the only gameplay exists at the end of the game, and new players are just time-gated. Can't enjoy the "real game" until you grind for three months!
Josh, i have to agree. My life is forever changed in a way that i’ll never have the free time i used to. We also though have to talk about how when i play new MMO’s even with friends somehow i’m never in a position where i need help. You need to go somewhere? Fast travel! You need to do a dungeon? Dungeon finder. These games are losing what made them multiplayer. Needing help meant reaching out. Reaching out meant players could dedicate, hell, even roleplay being a mentor to other players who didn’t know or didn’t have the resources. I want to play a Massive Multiplayer Online game, not a Massive Online game.
... that's true. It's what draws me to where I play now. You have to have help when starting, and now I- a more experienced and settled player- can reach out and give them starting supplies and guidance.
Similarly, I may not know about some feature, and I have to ask about it.
I feel like sandbox games like Ark or even Minecraft have a lot of systems of relying on a community more than any current MMO will ever give you. I cannot count how many times my friends were in trouble for dying with lots of valuables with them and had other friends help them get it all back.
Ashes of creation is on the way :D
@@turnipkupo7263 Really hoping it gets popular!
@@MahalGC I have to agree. I have found memories of Ark, I just don't have the time to play it as I can't login everyday. I'm playing Albion Online, another sandbox game. I do different things everyday, one day I level up my gear, the other I gather, sometimes I just craft and sell materials in different cities, etc. There's little to no fast travel, there's a group finder for the starter island, which is not very used, however for the rest of the game you need to rely on your guild/alliance. It's also full loot combat for the most part. I'm having fun playing it even tho I don't really enjoy top-down games
I was less or not at all depressed 10 years ago so that was probably the case, was easier to socialize with people, now its hard to even say "hi" to stranger in the game.
arent all adults depressed? i think we are. This......is life.
I agree with you both. I used to chat up people all the time in the early 2000's, now it's hard for me to join groups or guilds in any new game I try.
With you on that, even when I try to join a guild and make an attempt to talk to everyone, the motivation quickly fades when that voice in the back of your head keeps going "you'll never fit in with them, they're just nice to everyone they dont actually care" or or crap like that. Though I recommend you keep trying. If you find a game you really want to sink some time in, look for a guild and just join and see what happens. Keep guild chat open, partake in their events, post on any social media they have, etc. And if it doesnt work out, whatever, try joining another.
Hope you find that one group that are so great, you'll forget your anxiety and start talking without even realizing. Good luck.
@@Capt_Dango I like that, thanks for the advice
Sad but true, I play WoW solo, even if I joined a guild monts ago. No voice chat no raids, just random solo stuff that I can do in any other non MMO single player game.
I tend to agree that it has little to do with free time (For me). The secret is accepting you won't recapture that feeling because it never really existed. As "Time" has passed we've assigned and reworked our memories. I've noticed things from 5 years ago are now starting to have that tinge of nostalgia to them but I can honestly look back and say "You are looking at this from rose tinted glasses". As some of us get older we are able to see so much more and it's terrifying. I think we all believed we would just stay raiding MC forever. Or that song at a concert would never end. The love we had for someone would never fade. We are starting to understand how our elders felt and feel as the world has already passed them by just as it will for us. Enough rambling. The point I guess...... Enjoy everyday to the fullest as you will likely look back years from now with that same expression. "Those were the good ole days".
Hmm exactly! Memories are constructed. Some of my favorite gaming memories are from when ARK just came out and we grinded like 100 hours in a week and had a huge base and dominated the server. My mind tells me I had the most fun I've ever had during that time, but in reality 80 of the 100 hours were spent grinding stone or metal, which was really tiring.
Yeah I think part of it is us reworking our memories, but a part of that feeling is form dopamine dumps in our system from the game and social interactions. The more these dumps happen the more the amount of receptors change in our system meaning we have more and more trouble achieving that initial high.
@Matthew Adams
" As some of us get older we are able to see so much more and it's terrifying. I think we all believed we would just stay raiding MC forever. Or that song at a concert would never end. The love we had for someone would never fade. We are starting to understand how our elders felt and feel as the world has already passed them by just as it will for us."
Damn, This is one of the most depressing things I've heard about life.
And as someone who likes his depression, I thank you both for the depressing and for the insightful part of it.
I was 11 when I played my first mmo. It was new, exciting! I thought I was the coolest guy with all my gear. Life was simpler back then too, i was care free. Those times are gone. Im not saying that I don’t enjoy mmo’s anymore, but as an adult, it just doesn’t hit like that anymore.
I think there is a simple explaination for this: Younger people are more impressionable. When i was a kid or teen, i was satisfied like with the oldest version of Mario. If i had to play it now i would fall asleep how simple it is, despite still liking 2d platformer games.
I want this guy to be my therapist
I'm an "older gamer" and it isn't my opinion that the games aren't as much fun. For me personally it is the community, having to deal with endless trolling, griefing, etc. As an older gamer I am naturally slower and really don't enjoy things like PvP. So there you go... my opinion only.
What killed it for me is the "meta comp" and "flavour of the month" obsession in the community no matter where I go... In the ye olde times nobody knew what was optimal and everyone went with the flow, while nowadays even on a semi-casual level people copy "top streamer strats" and stuff.
@@ivylilybasket true, this killled Retail WoW for me. Switched to Classic WoW, even when its not like back then. but the classic community is a lot more friendly than in retail.
@@ivylilybasket You can engineer this out of the game comepletely but devs be lazy.
Peak irony is having a RAID: Shadow Legends ad before this video.
I forgot ads still existed. #UBlockOrigin
adblock is a godsend
youtube do not have any ads...for me anyways
They just don't make ads like they make RAID: Shadow Legends anymore :(
That's funny you say that, while I'm reading this on my phone I'm playing raid Shadow Legends
I'm almost a year late to this video, but I'd like to add that it's harder for me to get immersed in games as I get older. I'm almost 30 years old, and I'm very aware that the game I'm playing is a product with successes and shortcomings. I'll consciously recognize and applaud the excellent soundtrack, but I'll also acknowledge the limited gameplay mechanics and - ever aware of my mortality and valuable, limited time - decide if the game is worth investing my precious minutes and hours. I remember being a kid in the 2000s and feeling completely immersed and awestruck in the worlds of Fable and TES: Oblivion and early WoW, but that feeling is incredibly rare now - nigh unobtainable. Adult me will never again be hyped about a game like teenage me was about Mass Effect 1 or Halo 2. Games are still fun, but they're more like going to a carnival or amusement park instead of disappearing to another world with endless possibilities. And maybe now that I regularly play D&D I'm a bit spoiled by the *actual* endless possibilities in TTRPGs compared to the limits of video games.
The problem I'm having with newer MMO's is that the character I'm playing doesn't feel like MY character. In the sense that character "creation" in MMOs pretty much just means choosing a name for one of several already-made characters (maybe choose a color or two), followed by an overly-specific heroic storyline that singles out your character's place in the world despite being the same as every other player's. This did not used to be the norm.
The problem is devs are creating MMOs as though they're single-player story-driven games, but with everyone playing them in the same room. Imagine if God of War were exactly the same, except you saw other Kratoses going through the stage at the same time as you.
How's that older MMOs had more special characters? same reason as the video, because people spent way too much time in the game forming communities and reputations, nowadays, that's replaced by having more knowledge about the game and switching the in game celebrities to other characters like streamers
@@ZXMirakuru it's not that older mmos had more special characters, it's that they had more personal characters, even if bland at face-value. And a big part of that is the devs not imposing that identity on player characters, but rather leaving that in the hands of players. The idea that characters should be special is, if anything, part of the problem with newer MMOs.
A good example of this issue is in Black Desert Online, a game that was hyped for it's deep character creation. No matter how many options and sliders you had, the devs had still decided that the Tamer was a petit Asian girl, the Archer was a youthful Celtic-looking man, etc... The dev's ideas of WHO these characters are. Their identifying traits and demeanor, preselected for each character type by the developers, not up to the player.
And while it might seem like that's just "one MMO", I repeat that it's an MMO that was hyped on deep character customization. More often than not, when I try out a newer MMO the character creation is really just "character selection". Which of course reflects on the in-game population, just identical clones of the same cast of characters with one or two being particularly more used than others. It doesn't make the game-world actually seem populated in any sense, nor does it make the player character seem like they have any consistent place in it. You're just the "brawler" character, and that guy over there is also just the "brawler" but a few levels further in than you are.
Again, this didn't used to be the norm, and really comes off like the design elements of a single-player design approach made arbitrarily "mmo". Like suit-and-tie devs jumped into the genre without knowing the difference in appeal, prioritizing "cool heroes and epic stories" as opposed to many-player interaction in a wide-open world.
Play Albion 😅
@@Augenstein you have a point here, they are massive multiplayer, but not 'roleplaying' as your character's personality is already defined by the devs.
@@pbonfanti You ARE your character's personality. That is pretty much the only meaningful variable between two players of the same or similar race/class combo and lvl.
I agree that games were more enjoyable when we had less responsibilities and more time. Also after thousands of hours playing MMOs they are not as novel as they once were. However, after trying classic wow I think old MMOs are better because they were designed to be social. New MMOs focus on long single player campaigns to unlock social/group play (lfg is a group technically, but hardly social), and I play MMOs for the people more than the story. I can't speak for everyone, but I spent 90% of my time in classic wow in a group, but 90% of my time in retail wow playing solo.
because our free time was less valuable to us back then. it's more valuable now, so now it's even moreso each of our responsibilities to choose how we spend our time in game
Try eve online
@Manek Iridius not true. the most fun I had in wow were precisely because I wasn't solo. the teamwork was great.
exactly the same for me.. i love the social aspect not the running around in your own little bubble ignoring everyone around you..
@@artt8381 eve is garbage. I guess it would appeal to someone with OCD that likes having exactly 7 buttons to press, once every 15-20 minutes or so. The gameplay itself is garbage though. I signed up for a year based on its hype back when it was 3 years old, and I couldn't believe people enjoyed that nonsense, but I stuck with it hoping it would get better, but it doesn't. The game play loop of eve is just horrible.
personally never enjoyed raids which feels like what every mmo wants the game to be about
Exactly, best MMO moment was 5 or so guildies camping the entrance to Molten Core in WOW, slaughtering all raiders coming in dribs and drabs, then calling in our mates when they started to organise, hilarious and far more entertaining than running the dungeon.
I played Dungeons and Dragons Online for years. It was the best MMO I ever played. The gameplay was fun, the characters were great, and there was no shortage of things to do....even when you were grinding. At some point, they added Raids. You had to have a high end gaming computer and know the one strategy to beat the boss. The loot that you could grind from Raids became essential, but it was hard for "casuals" to play at that level. It destroyed that game for me and many others. There are a hundred other factors, but Raids were the big thing that really ruined that game for me and my guildmates.
Black desert is a thing. And other pvp focussed games.
@@10cody7 So you don’t like PvP, and you don’t like large scale PvE like raiding.
Wtf do you like then? Fucking people these days.
@@James-kv3ll lol ok then
I'm 34 and I'm still enjoying MMO's because I live in Denmark and we don't have as much stress here as in a lot of places, I think.
Early MMOs were honest experiences designed for fun. Then they learned that for player retention they had to remove the fun and replace it with repetition and content gating.
Exactly. The design was different their goal was not the same as it is today. Now if someone creates a mmo the whole idea is for it to be MASSIVE and have millions of people playing. If that doesn't happen it shuts down. Also I very much agree with the repetition and content gating. Just logging into a mmo nowadays is basically to do daily chores. These things didn't exist back when I played the first generation mmos. We logged in to have FUN not to do chores.
big true
My intro into MMO was when my buddy demanded that I join him in Everquest's first expansion, "The Ruins of Kunark". I'm 7 years married at this point with 3 kids and a good job (firefighter/paramedic). With a fireman's schedule, I had 2 days between shifts that I could dive into Everquest. 24hr on, 48hr off.
EQ was brutal at the time. There wasn't the expansive internet presence of ALL of the things that you can do so the two of us just ran around n00bing it up! There were tons of people in the starting city of Qeynos killing all manner of skeletons, spiders, and the always fun named mob Fippy Darkpaw.
I have 2 very very fond memories... (maybe 3) But the 1st is, at level 10, my friend and I decided that we didn't want to hang out at Qeynos anymore. We wanted to go to Freeport. We didn't have the silver to have a wizard teleport us there so... we ran! We ran from Qeynos to Freeport. At that level, everything between each zone was high enough to kill us. It was a heart pounding run for our lives with a few death and corpse retrievals, but we eventually made it. We were both so proud of ourselves!
2nd memory is the Castle Mistmoore zone. The entrance was where those who were just high enough to enter the zone would camp and pull mobs to the entrance where they would get killed. There was always tons of corpses there as, invariably, some group deeper in the zone would get overwhelmed and run to the zone entrance /yell ing "TRAAAAIN!" Which meant to clear out the entrance, a giant group of pissed off mobs are coming. Good times!
I suppose the 3rd fond memory was, my 2 year old decided he was bored and pushed the screen out of the window and go for a walk a few houses down while I was EQing... yeah... An annoying knock at the door, to my surprise, was my neighbor holding my kid! "Why do you have my son?!" "Because he was walking around outside of my house....." ---- .... sooo... "Fond" memory of my 11 year old daughter ratting me out when momma got home from work. "DAD LOST JACK TODAY!" So EQ almost got me divorced.. luckily still happily married.
Yikes! This turned out longer than anticipated. These days, I just can't sink the time into MMO's (I was deep into WoW for several years). I have more fun with roguelike games.
Try EVE online!
Some of my favorite memories was training spectres to the beach in Oasis with my Enchanter lol. Running through Dalnir with my same level buddy Enchanter. I had a druid who would come to me for Clarity whenever I asked and would give me SoW.
I think I did have more fun with WoW. I was one of the first Grand Marshal Hunters...That almost got me divorced....but yes...Those were the good times lol.
Was there another game like Ever Quest where you could PVP and loot players' gear that may have taken them real-time weeks to obtain? My best memories of EQ were rolling the dice in a PVP engagement and risking it all!
Classical Everquest was indeed a most memorable time which I consider myself lucky to have experienced, especially as it was then also a fresh genre; that's something that can never be repeated again, ever.
@@artt8381 I am worth about 100b in EvE online..Sadly I have not played in a little over two years...Still in Alliance I think " PHEW "
I have a philosophy that states "Knowledge kills magic." Think about the first time you saw popcorn pop, the first time you had sex, and the first time you played a MMORPG. Now fast forward to where you've done all the above over 100 times. You know more about science and how microwaves work. You've seen nudity a lot and your libido is not as high. And you know a lot more about MMORPGs to the point where you already know how to play MMORPGs that aren't even released yet simply because many mechanics you already know carries over. Not only that, knowledge opens up the choice to be efficient.
I agree. I would say "comparison is a killer of joy". When you played your first MMO or had a sex you cannot compare to anything in your life. It is such a new exciting thing that your brain is pumping dopamine like mad. It will never give you the same dopamine rush next time. Never ever. The old people are usually miserable and tired because they can compare anything they are doing now to past memories. Thats why we all have to die in the end. The life would become hell if we didn't.
good pov.
@@AverageJoe3 Yup that is true. Sure, a MMO you've never played might have new specifics but the basics usually don't change. You know you're going to create and customize a character, gain experience, gain levels, use abilities, kill monsters, kill other players, talk to other players, join clans, do quests, optimize strategies, etc. All of these things aren't new to us anymore.
I wouldn't say it's about knowledge itself, it's that your brain rewards you for learning things. Games where you keep learning new stuff all the time keep being engaging for thousands of hours. You're supposed to use that knowledge to learn new things, that you had no idea about before. Pretty much every answer opens up dozens of new questions, in effectively infinite exponential growth of wonder. If you don't fall into the pit of despair of expecting learning to _decrease_ your sense of wonder ("rainbows used to be so magical when I had no idea how they work") and instead apply your newfound knowledge to finding out _even more_ about the world, you're fine. But of course, most games don't have the depth that could ever support this. And learning about things from a wiki is far less satisfying than figuring them out yourself, or even sharing your knowledge with friends (and strangers) - just like it is with learning any other thing. You can get answers faster, but it's less likely you'll get inspired to learn more, and instead it's very easy to be like "But _somebody_ knows how it works; I _could_ learn about it by reading this article. So there's no point in doing so." It's something we teach children from a young age, and I expect it's one of the big reasons why schools tend to _discourage_ learning, rather than enabling it - it's just a pointless chore, everybody else is doing it, you're not really discovering anything, just listening to someone rattle on the same lectures they gave 20 years ago, scribbling in your notebook is far more satisfying than that.
Apart from that, social activities in general seem to be something that your brain rewards you for _even if the activity itself is brain-numbingly stupid_ ("everything is better with friends"). Even for games that aren't multiplayer, just having a bunch of friends on voice chat while playing makes them better. I suspect this is another big reason why people tend to enjoy games (and many other activities) less as adults - you no longer have the luxury of being on voice chat for hours (or, in the "real world", being with the gang doing nothing of significance), and since the same is true for your friends, it's hard to coordinate any group activity that used to be effortless back in high school. And even if you do find the time, you will probably want to go someplace to avoid the distractions of your adult life, rather than playing an MMO. It's probably not surprising that a lot of adults playing MMOs happen to play at work :D
@@LuaanTi I love your comment. Yeah schools suck that way. Usually, instead of you discovering something, they just tell you what it is, then ask you to memorize it. Perhaps this is why many people use wiki for everything. It's what schools trained us to do since we were small children. And while it is more efficient to do things this way, it generally isn't much fun, because not only is it effortless, you did not make the discovery. Instead, you read the discovery from somewhere else.
So if this is the case, then why do many people want to be efficient? Say you are killing guards for clue scrolls in Runescape.. This means that you are placing a bet using a resource called time for a chance of getting a scroll. If you do not get a clue scroll, your bet is lost. So you get better levels and equipment in order to reduce your bet cost.
I have noticed that some people who are efficient don't have the choice to be inefficient. I also notice this within myself. I constantly get thoughts of how I am wasting more time to earn less. That discovery is a waste of time and I could know things faster simply by reading wiki.
If I don't have the choice to be inefficient, that can only mean one thing: ADDICTION. Gambling addiction, to be precise. Efficiency is linked to gambling addiction, and explains why some people have to constantly fight off that urge.
I think the biggest thing was that when I played EQ back in the day it was novel to me AND to everyone else. There wasn't as much of an ability to just Google the quests or secrets in a zone or storyline, a lot of mysteries just stayed mysterious for a longer period of time. I think those 2 factors are what I miss most. And it's true that we're not going back to that, Google and wikis are here and not going away. Now the fun is more in getting good at the game and the socializing, which were always factors, but the emphasis has drastically increased because of the reasons I mentioned, the loss of the mass novelty and persistent mystery.
I do think that newer MMOs are missing some of the virtues of older MMOs, but it's difficult to go back to the old MMOs because those often lack some important improvements that were made in new MMOs. I think the biggest shift from old MMOs to new MMOs is that in old MMOs the essential skill they tested you on was your ability to make friends and form functional relationships with people. New MMOs test your ability to execute rotations and dodge hazard markers while in a group with people you aren't even talking to.
A really big problem with MMO projects that try to capture the feeling of older games is usually that they get sucked into this cult of inconvenience, where they basically insist that in order for the play experience to be meaningful everything has to be tedious and inconvenient. I think those aspects are exactly why people don't just go back to the old MMORPGs. It's not convenience in itself that makes newer MMORPGs feel less meaningful, it's that new MMOs try to remove the inconvenient aspects of playing with others. The reality of the matter is though, building functional relationships with other players was the game. Your ability to shoot fireballs or whatever was never the essential skill the game tested you on. You still need to build a strong guild to do high end raid content usually, but that's also the content that requires very significant time investments. The casual play has become completely devoid of social interaction being the driver of success.
Being playing casually on and off for years, jumping from MMO to MMO. They are fun while learning the ropes, then ... nothing. No matter how cool or impactful the combat is, it just gets stale. I agree, that by missing the social aspect, I miss the whole point of the genre.
Just remove raidfinder from modern mmos
Make the hyper easy mode difficulty raids still require a PUG group or guild to enter
Bam, you once again need to be social to experience the endgame, but it doesnt require the time or mechanical investment that hardcore raiding does
@ except WoWs player retention and growth rate declined massicely after it was added
Seems like your numbers are off
@ thats interesting because as I recall
The 2 largest growth points in WoW's history, the entirety of vanilla, and the wotlk launch were pre group finder.
So if the game was gaining more than it was losing theres more to be said about the social aspect of not having group finders isnt there
@ Wrath wasn't really that impressive when it comes to growth. Look at any graph of the player numbers back them. Yes it peaked in wrath. But it hardly had any growth compared to vanilla and tbc. Mostly retention. Would actually say it looked pretty bad that the steady growth the game had during the first 2 expansions didn't continue with wrath.
Also dungeon finder was added very late in the life cycle of wrath. Actually so much towards the end that most people remember it as a cata feature. Never liked this feature and never will. Just causes people to get antisocial which is bad for any MMO
The most fun I ever had in an MMO was when I was a member of an entertainment company in Star Wars Galaxies and we went around the galaxy putting on an adaptation of A Christmas Carol before large audiences. Also the courtroom drama we put on that wound up being the end of our little guild in the long term
The MMOs i've played lately, even the ones I played back then, have gotten much easier, faster and forgiving, which I find discourages actually making friends and cooperating. The games 10-15 years ago for the most part required you to find some randoms in the world and make friends in order to progress, nowadays there's usually some sort of automated partyfinder on the off chance that there's something you can't just solo in the first place.
The most fun I ever had on EQ was actually on the Agnarr TLP - until the PoP expansion. It was much easier than it was in 1999, but most of that "easier" is actually just QoL changes.
I have gone through that era of making friends and doing things with them. But as i grow, i know these communities will die one day because, that's the normal thing to happen. So i don't want to emotionally invest anymore. This realization took years. I think that happened to most people. After many years, they don't want to emotionally invest. The games changed because we changed.
FFXI hardest MMO I've ever played. Every victory was a monumental occasion.
WOW Is the exact opposite of everything FFXI stood for.
Instant gratification = Boredom
Here's a question for you, was it REALLY more difficult ? Or was it just less CONVENIENT ? Because when you think about it, the only thing they were doing back then was jacking up enemies HP and Damage, the combat wasn't deeper back then, in fact it was even less interactive due to the tech limitation of the time, sure you casted spells and used skills but... Most of the combat was kinda like a roll base system, like more traditional Pen'n'paper RPG and you were using skills that helped you survive encounters.
So again... ask yourself this question, was it REALLY more difficult ? Or was it just less CONVENIENT ? and If it was more difficult then, was it "fair" difficulty ? or just bloated difficulty through jacked up HP and DMG stats ?
Honestly tho I've been playing those old mmos and they're not mechanically interesting. They're tedious, not really challenging. I can kill a rat. I don't want to kill 30 rats.
If I'm going to play a hard game, I'd rather play a roguelike or a souls like or an arpg with a cool combat system. Something fun that isn't six hours of grinding to hit level 10.
Went back to dark age of Camelot after years of nostalgia for it and honestly I couldn't play it for more than twenty minutes lol.
Right now IRL has way more adventure than WOW ever had
What I realize is that I'm searching for the feeling I had when I got home from school and was able to escape my anxiety-filled life. In school I didn't have anyone I considered a true friend, and I felt like a totally different person entering an MMO. I could be someone else, I could be someone no one could see behind the screen. Now, MMO's can't satisfy the craving for that escape anymore because it doesn't exist anymore. Although I'm still trying to escape, it's different now and for different reasons. What I'm chasing is that feeling I got when I logged into Runescape back in 2003
I feel the same
My best mmo (sorta) memory is meeting my future fiance on a Minecraft role play server. Three years later she moved from Belgium to the UK to live with me.
Now thats what I call a (seemingly)Happy ending
@@elijahhankerson5899 Oh yeah definitely a happy ending, it's valentines day and she just bought me ice cream.
That is a legit awesome story!
I wish you guys all the continued best. :)
@@JustDaZack Ty man, still amazes me I got a fiance out of playing minecraft 😂
Happy Valentine's Day
Absolutely, I play games differently now, since getting married and having a kid. During WoW/Wrath I spent countless hours on the game, made friendships I still hold, some of our guild met on the game and got married IRL. We worked so hard trying to take down Arthas, or get Gladiator ranking in PVP, I had scheduled raids and my free time was all in game. Nowadays, with a young son and lots of stuff to do, I find myself prefering FF14, because I can play it at my leisure, single player style, but if i find myself with some time, I can work on a Savage or something.
Addendum: I wouldn't trade the life I have now for that old lifestyle for anything. My time as a no lifer was fun, but taking my Son to the park is a lot more fun.
i agree with this ffxiv and swtor are really nice because you can do alot of stuff by yourself and have a really good time where wow requires more dedication
you can basically play Elder scrolls online as a single player game...
@@andyd3447 I came to Elder Scrolls Online from Skyrim, so I naturally began ESO by playing solo, and played solo so much that my ranking got as high as other players who were much more experienced in group play, and it puzzled them that I was not a more effective player. But I have never been as skilled a gamer as others, and I never quite got the timing right for putting together an effective rotation, so I was never a real contributor to the groups I was in. I had a half-dozen tolerant and kind friends I valued highly, but when they all dropped out--leaving me to contend with the spoiled and narcissistic PVP-ers--I finally dropped out myself.
@@rand26100 Thats sad but you can always make new friends.
The answer is simple. The reason old school MMOs where the best was because the community was MUCH different back then. The best thing about MMOs are their community and the friends you make along the way. The late 90s and early 2000s had a very different kind of player, those who like to Roleplay their character, where fans of fantasy and where explorers and played seriously because it was the only game back then. Compare that to kids today rushing for the end game in a week, not even stopping for a second to say hello and not caring about anything because gamers today are used to the theme park game design with no substance.
So the MMO genre was a product of it's time. To give you an example, I met a random girl on Ever Quest and we quested for a while, I had to go eat and this person sat next to my character for almost an hour until I returned, imagine that today. I remember seeing groups of people just sit down around a campfire role playing, or a group of people coming together to form a group because you couldn't possible survive on your own. In contrast to modern gaming where everybody is a super hero, can solo the whole game by themselves, and don't have to care about anybody, nobody has time to make friends anymore, got to get that loot.
Thats the reason MMOs will NEVER be like they where back then. Like I said they were a product of simpler times before social media and predatory/lazy game design.
I can't agree with you. I was a mom of 5 when I joined my first MMO. I am still a mom of 5 but they are all grown up so I actually have less responsibilities then I had. I lived through and saw the game change and eventually left it because it didn't give what it use to give.
I built a guild. Over 300 members. 3 raid teams. 1 pvp team. I played every day leading the guild and 2 raid teams.
The essences of my guild was not hardcore. We often took in less skilled players and helped them understand the game.
We often recruited people in general chat when we was low on people for a raid.
But then "instant gratification" became a core part of the game.
You didn't need a guild to do dungeons or raids anymore.
Just join the que.
You don't need to know how to play your character, the devs will give you a lvl 100 for free if you buy the game!
Sadly this brought out the worst in people.
People could act any way they wanted.
They could be abusive, sometimes to the point I had guild members crying.
They could steal loot and just insta leave.
Being nice and helpful, aiding people on their journey, knowing where every quest was before it was removed to shorten the leveling progress felt like wasted time stolen from me.
I was the Oracle everyone asked about everything.
The best moment was when my guild had been in a boss fight for 6 hours.
It was the last night before a new expansion was going to release.
I had trained every single one who was in the team.
It was the last chance.
And after much pain and suffering along the way finally, 2 hours before launch, we did it.
So much work and effort and we had girls that cried of joy for finally have beaten the boss.
The more you work for something, the more you value it.
What you get for free through instant gratification does not carry value. It doesn't mean anything.
THAT is why games are so bad today.
That is why I left MMO.
Things rings true, but I do want to at least share one perspective.
Not all MMOs reward instant gratification nowadays. A lot of them do, and that's a fair point. I would have to agree with you, in this is why I stopped playing FFXIV. But, not all MMOs do this. I think PSO2 is the perfect example of a game that doesn't, but at the same time, it's a game that doesn't force you to be social.
You're right. We just live in a far different time than what we all remember. We live in a time where children are walking into a kindergarten classroom with a supercomputer in their pocket. The online community will never be the same, not that it's all bad, but there's no going back to what it was.
Agree with you partially. I played WOW for 13 years and I felt the more "accessible" it was to join groups and find people, the more people started treating each other as expendable. People leaving groups at the smallest grievance. People kicking or vote kicking others out of groups for real or perceived shortcomings. Loyal long standing guild members being perma-benched or removed from raid roster because "new shiny star player" applied... and then this player would get their "gear, achievement, logs" and just jump ship to a higher progressed guild. People stopped mediating and discussing to solve problems, instead just blamed some scapegoat for the "problem" and kicked that person or blamed the group and jumped ship.
People being rude, selfish, caring only to achieve their goal at the expense of others and not repaying the favour back. People being only valued for their dps number and not personality - ending with group of selfish pricks making obnoxious jokes and very politically un-correct comments (one guy had literally some neo-nazi opinions...) and most of those people being valued over polite, nice people because the former "pump numbers".
Blizzard gave people all the tools to avoid responsibility to be a jerk - server transfers, faction changes, cross realm group finder with a click of a button, meanwhile removed things like master looter which helped guilds police people to not be jerks and selfish pricks. The duty to "gear up" was shifted from the guild looking for member to the player applying. The "community" followed with reducing everyone to anonymous number. You're not a person anymore, funny, nice, helpful or otherwise. You're your item level, raider.io score, warcraft logs percentile, "link curve" etc. You're just a number.
You're also a class and a spec and after every class in my role was "top dog" for a time except mine (yay game balance) for 5+ years I was sick and tired of being asked to reroll fotm or declined entry just based on that. I fondly remember times from WOTLK to MOP where "bring the player not the class" ruled and people cared more whether I can play and I can socially fit into the guild rather whether my class is "the best" according to some gaming gurus. But mostly people get spoiled by ease of picking up the next player, so they can always just wait for the "correct class" to show up in the group finder or on wowprogress or apply to guild...
I was still looking for the feeling of friendship, trust and camaraderie, instead I found a place where dog eats dog and everyone is just a stepping stone towards someone's goal.
underrated comment hehe, soo true, tho i think what he's saying does apply in lots of cases too
I agree completely, my life is essentially exactly the same it was the day Everquest launched, some of it is the excitement of a new and amazing genre is gone sure, but it's mostly just the games are trash and so is the community that plays them...
Its hard for me to live in a virtual world when nobody talks at all even in major cities
you are not supposed to live in a virtual world you are supposed to play the damn game. if your real life sucks so bad that you need to flee into an alternate reality then you need therapy not an online game
@@mailowmailow5207 do you not know the point of MMOs? Lmao
@@eyoshinthemaximum lmao right? that dude sound like a complete idiot
Everyone else feels that way, too. At some point last year, I just started saying random things to people I come across. "What's everyone's favorite show right now?" "I really like your outfit/name!" "*random emote*"
People RESPOND. And if I don't follow-up with these people, they rarely message me back. But when I message them later, they reply again!
It's up to us to create the interaction that we crave.
@@mailowmailow5207 What a dumb comment.
Maybe this explanation works for many people, not for me. I am a gamer for 30 years now. My best experiences were in Everquest . I started 1 May 1999. I was 25, my best memory was, when I was around level 7 and was sitting at orc hill in greater faydark. I had a group of 6 and we had a downtime. That was the moment when I fell in love with mmorpgs. We all were sitting down in a circle, cause you had to sit to meditate or gain health. And we all were strangers, but we talked. That reminded me so much to my Pen and Paper sessions where you do exactly the same thing after a adventure or a hards day. I think many of the game mechanics of todays games, are ruining the posibillity to make new friends cause everything works now without even talking to your group or a person. Groupfinder, instance dungeons, instent travel. sorry for my english, i am german.
spot on with this comment. My best experiences also go way back to Everquest, for similar moments. I remember the 'downtime' moments in between battles, and even had in person guild meetings etc, and we actually talked, and dare I say it even had a tiny bit of roleplay mixed in. I definitely enjoyed WoW when it came out, but over the years of expansions saw all the elements of social interaction die away with the added mechanics that had you skipping over any chance for it to happen. Ironically, as my sense of nostalgia grew, I finally discovered and got into classic pen and paper DnD with old friends and new friends, and finally found that I could get that social aspect of RPG back in my life. DnD is filling the void for me now.
It's a multifaceted problem. What he talks about in the video is a large reason why many players aren't enjoying games anymore, but to your point the social landscape outside of MMOs has also changed dramatically. No longer are in-game chat the main way people socialize with other players. Free apps like Discord keep people in bubbles, either their friend group or a guild they join. Notice how in any modern MMO the region chat is filled with guild recruitment ads? 95% chance they have a discord server (why not? It's free) and once a player joins it they'll start paying less attention to the chat.
Talking with other people for tips/advice is also mainly a waste of time since so many guides exist for pretty much any game released in the past decade. I've also noticed the younger generation (which I'm a part of) tend to care more about gameplay and the adrenaline rush than the social aspects of games that older generations (i.e., yours) might enjoy.
@@_Dingu I'd like to add my own experiences onto what you've shared. One thing that I've also noticed is that people are also going into the bubbles to escape the trolls, edgelords, and shock jock wannabes. Back in the day it was tedious to try to censor the chat to avoid this, and it was discouraging to look for an hour for a hard to find thing and when you ask in regional chat everyone gives you the wrong answer because it's 'funny' or 'a right of passage'.
I've noticed that the chat that's open to all players has less helpful and welcoming responses, and more edgy or troll responses if any at all. I personally think it's because the people who would help just leave those ways of communication behind and the majority of those left behind are those who think edgy or troll responses are funny or even acceptable.
@ThatMarchingBunny It's similar for me, even though it came about in an entirely different way. My most memorable experience was taking a small group of friends up into the wilderness in Runescape 2 so that we could train on the harder mobs with some safety in numbers ... only to find another PvE group in that spot, along with a huge PK guild that was trying to kill them. What was supposed to be a chill training session turned into a full-scale war; we called out a temporary alliance with that group, blindsided the PK guild with our 'reinforcements', and killed a few of them before they ran off. In the middle of celebrating and running stuff back to the bank to stash, we got to know each other. That chance encounter led to guild invites, a lot more battles in the wilderness, and friendships that lasted for years.
I can't think of any modern MMO that lets me have an experience like this. There's no sense of community or camaraderie in any of the games I've played. Queue up, do your role perfectly without speaking, get yelled at if you don't. Even if the mechanics are casual and forgiving, I rarely see anyone try to socialize. It feels like a job. So is it the fault of the playerbase these days, or the game design itself?
I don't know. Probably both. Maybe I'm playing the wrong games.
I remember orc hill. Loved EverQuest
For me it's not about lifestyle changes, I have just as much free time now to dedicate to games as when I was a teenager.
It's the fact that most MMOs have changed in their design mechanics, the social contract and necessary grouping have gone, everything is a themepark now where you go from hub to hub looking for floating exclamation marks; reputation doesn't matter at all. individual servers have become megashards and LFG has become a fast travel dungeon finder where you speedrun and forget everyone immediately after while ticking off your daily tasks. So with the added anonymity of online people become assholes even more, doesn't matter whether it's PvP or PvE, there are elitists, trolls, racists and generally nasty people about.
EQ had a dangerous world and no abundance of fast travel, you needed to interact with people just to get around, before you even got into grouping and adventuring. The game itself was more difficult, quests were not exclamation marks above NPC heads and you didn't go from obvious hub to obvious hub. It was built around talking and interacting with people, sharing information. Getting along with people and not being an asshole was important - there were consequences! You'd end up with a bad reputation that mattered as no one wanted to group with you or have you in a guild.
An MMO like Pantheon is bringing back the things that made MMOs special to me, proper roles, necessary grouping, the social contract, meaningful travel, class/role dependencies, slower-paced more tactical gameplay.
No 1v10 mob AoE & loot spam solo charge to max level then run your dailies and get a high 'gearscore' gameplay.
What made MMOs fun was the social aspect. There is too much now. Facebook, discord, twitter. There is no reason to socialize anymore, and mmos are updating in ways where you can just solo everything now. At least, this is my problem now with WoW. Nobody talks anymore. Nobody plays together. Guilds aren't this hype anymore unless you join one of the top of the 1%.
I definitely remember meeting up with friends in Runescape because it was the only way we were allowed to chat as most chat room sites were still sketchy with our parents.
Right? Now its just rush to the max level to the endgame and do the meta. In older mmos, like Ragnarok for example, everyone wanted the max level but some times they just stayed in the city talking.
@@LuizGustavo-ib6sb 100% right, even im guilty of this, and in the past i took my time. Partly because mmos used to be harder. Nowadays if you cant get max lvl in 2 days people will quit lol, so unfortunate
@@fiestafire5781 i disagree. as much as i like classic-wrath, the lvling is so much better now. the end game contents too.. when classic was announced i felt nothing, nor do i wan't to touch it again.
@@fiestafire5781 80% of people that ever played WOW had little to no interaction with other people and quite shortly after level cap. What made it fun for then was not direct interaction but the fact it was a shared space like going to a theater or a shopping mall. But I agree MMO's are competing with every other form of online social interaction today we forget how fast things have changed in 2004 no one had even heard of Facebook yet and UA-cam and Twitter 2005-2006
"You can not go back to how your life USED to be!"
*Jay Gatsby has entered the chat*
“Why...of course you can old sport”
@@greglane5607 Beautiful
A man of culture!
So the reason I dont enjoy mmos is because I'm an old loser with no friends playing a multiplayer game by myself?
And games are no longer providing easy way to gain those friends online because you can do almost everything solo, you don't need to interact too much, you don't need to negotiate, be kind to others because you are not being rewarded or punished by your social behavior.
I mean thats why I play, most people on MMOs nowadays are pricks anyways lol.
No no, capitalism. Capitalism is the problem! In socialism you'd be able to feel it again...
@@anonimowelwiatko9811 That is FAR more the reason people don't enjoy MMO's anymore.
Current MMORPG's aren't massively multiplayer, or role-playing games.
People who loved MMO's loved the idea of joining this "living, breathing world" that you could have an impact on, and just generally be a part of. Where you can create a new identity and have unique experiences with other real people, where you write the stories yourselves by playing together and interacting with the world! Not following along some terrible, scripted, on-rails "story", focussing on the development of comic-book like characters. Modern MMO's, especially WoW, have become nothing but "story-driven" loby-games, where you join a kind of complex loby, join a queue, and wait to be teleported to your instanced, on-rail content. You virtually NEVER see large groups of people anymore, everyone is split up into many different instances, it's becoming more and more like playing single-player content with a few other people running around you, that are completely meaningless to you, because you don't NEED them, or to interact with them, and they don't need you either! The only thing people do together in MMORPG's anymore is stand next to each other while they mash keys as hard as they can, staring at the damage meter, desperately trying to be #1.
Part of being invested in a living, breathing world, is relying on other people for certain services or opportunities for progression or just doing something for the fun of it!
Current MMORPG's have done EVERYTHING they can to make each and every player completely independent and self-reliant, being able to "finish", the game in a single-player like fashion.
The last MMORPG I played was the latest WoW beta. I kept looking for something new but realized it was just leftovers being reheated. It's fun if you can play a game that is escapist, but not so much when it's just virtual chores. Although, having said that, I have an older brother who would probably love a game of housecleaning.
Part of the problem these days is that everyone ever has just...
They've become pretty much slaves to the meta and optimization. That's all they care about now.
For me it was wow classic 2020, raiding on a Friday night with a chill guild wiping and killing bosses for 4 hours. I think old mmos did 2 thing right, making it significantly easier to do content in a group vs solo and allowing permanent social structures to develop in the game. In newer mmos, if you don't bring friends outside of the game, you will end up playing alone, especially if you have social anxiety.
I think that's what i liked about vanilla WoW and now classic WoW. No LFR, No dungeon finder, you were forced to be a community to get things done, and that made you find friends and guildies, some did you dirty along the way, but even those times are stories you look back on... Today you just queue for a dungeon, hope you don't run into any evil randos or trolls, run silently through the content, and leave as quickly as you zoned in. Fun times? Not really...
This comment is gold. You do know how it is, sir.
Social anxiety isn't a thing. Its you being weak and boring and us not being allowed to tell you that you are being a pussy and need to snap out of it. Don't turn your unwillingness to reach out into a non-existent illness. Just man up.
@@darkjudge8786 social anciety is VERY much a fucking thing
@@darkjudge8786 can you repeat that in english
It's like chasing a high, it's never as good as the first time.
truuuueee
I hear this argument all the time and its an absolute bullshit cop out.
1) If the lifestyle change was the main reason as to why people didn't enjoy MMOs anymore then it would also apply to other genres as well. Except right after the MMO trend started to slow down, the MOBA craze took over. A genre that requires hundreds of hours of playtime to achieve basic proficiency.
2) How many of the older "high profile" western MMOs had cash shops? None. Nowadays absolutely every single mmo release (or even re-release) comes with the inevitable question "Will there be any p2w or cash shop included?". Surely I don't have to go into detail why this topic is frustrating for older MMO players.
3) WoW Classic was an enormous success. And don't even try to say its because of "nostalgia". If we go by your logic of how lifestyle changes are the main culprit here then surely no matter how much nostalgia people have for vanilla WoW there would be no way for them to play or enjoy a game that requires so much of their time and attention...except people absolutely did.
4) You literally have a series on the channel called "Worst MMOs Ever" where you play super old MMOs and call them "garbage" - completely invalidating the entire point of this video.
5) Show me a modern game similar to Ragnarok Online. This is an argument based strictly on my personal game choice, but there is no other MMO out there that comes even remotely close to the unique experience that Ragnarok Online provided with its grid based movement.
This feels less like an opinion and more like projecting.
Yeah, feels like a really hard projection here. There are plenty of people agreeing with him and that's fine but you make a nice, valid point on his worst mmo bits. That entire series is just shitting on games and why they're bad but then this video is telling us that we're the reason we feel the games are bad? Uhh.. okay then! Also a super valid point with the cash shop bit, every fucking mmo has that now and sometimes I feel like more work goes into the items you can purchase with real $$$ vs in game currencies. Bugs are left constantly untouched unless people make a hard stink or it breaks the game or they're losing out on money because people are going to play things anyways. People are going to complain how bad a game is, how awful it is, how it's gone downhill since time xyz but still play it and that's part of the problem, too. They know they can milk gamers for whatever they have 'cause we just keep coming back, I can easily admit I've been someone who's guilty of this as well.
Also a big thing for me in games is hand holding, I remember being dropped in a world and having to figure things out and I LOVED that, now it's like you have to play the tutorials, you can't skip them and they show you how to do everything right down to how to use your keyboard. Yeah, that's a personal annoyance of mine and one I can look past for a good game worth dumping my time into, sept there really isn't too much of that out there anymore.
Extreme automation killed the heart of interaction in MMOs. Almost everything can be done without even saying ''hi'' to a random nowadays, which makes for a very dull experience. Also the new way ''grind'' works in MMOs is by keeping you glued to dailies and weeklies that are so boring and easy-to-do, with minimum rewards that are designed to stack up so that you can only make use of them after months of daily log in. Yes, I know old school MMOs were extremely grindy back then too, but the way they did it was different. Grind back then felt more like a journey, grinding now feels more like a job until you get your monthly reward.
My favorite MMO memory is grinding Karnor's Castle with my best friend in Everquest. We were duoing as a monk + bard. It was really hard and really fun for very little reward, other than we could do it.
He has since then passed on, and I miss him every day. Rest in peace Daniel.
Regardless, I agree and disagree with the video. For me it is impossible to replicate the magic of a first MMO, because going into future MMO's you know too much. You look things up quicker, you understand things like "meta" and allow it to influence your choices. It just isn't the same. That is why for most people the MMO you first dive into is always the best.
My most fun moment, was meeting some guy in a quest during ESO. We completed the quest, and played for a few hours. The guy was really nice and we had a lot of fun. That moment was today.
Same with me, my most fun moment was when I was playing WoW BC for the first time and I met a group of people in the hills brad forest that needed one more person for their 5 group quest. I joined and after that quest, played with them till the end of BC. I feel like most mmos trope today are pretty quick instanced based dungeons that take 10 mins to fully complete and after that the people in that group never meet again. Shoutout to Evac, Nusahmoon, Junno, and Austin.
My happiest memories from an MMO was finishing the Endwalker MSQ a few days ago, and then watching my friends share that experience. And before that, it was the Shadowbringer story. I am a 30+ year old dude. And I never had more fun with an MMO then I do right now.
@Denizen OfTheDepths
Because taste is subjective? It's not that hard.
@Denizen OfTheDepths hahahah, dude. Chill. It's a story about a video game. I'm clearly not interested in a debate. You wasted all that time writing that reply and I not going to respond on it
Also, you're not as clever as you think you are.
Have a great day, and try to enjoy things more. You'll be a lot happier.
What game is that in?
@@cupriferouscatalyst3708 That would be Final Fantasy 14!
@@freekhaerkens42 cool, thanks! Yeah that definitely seems like one of the most impressive current MMOs
My favorite memory was in my first MMO, LotRO. Where I was with a party and we were only level 8. We'd gotten done slamming some of the quests that at the time were geared to recommend a team. And we just were running through the woods and started chilling in an small river with a small waterfall. I thought the atmosphere was really nice. Just having gone to battle and then the tranquility of the river contrasted with the waterfall just high enough to be worried about taking fall damage.
It was chill. And the second member of the team was into the relaxing waterfall hijinks and swimming off it. The third was like "The swimming isn't relaxing. You can't even dive like in WoW"
you are so lucky that LOTRO was your first MMO. imo also the best of its time!