▼ *IMPORTANT DETAILS ABOUT VIDEO:* ▼ Other videos in countertop series► -Video clip showing dog bone bolt installation: ua-cam.com/video/zQxNQdj3f7E/v-deo.html -Video about loose tenon joinery: ua-cam.com/video/Bx1Mg2mTMO0/v-deo.html -Video about making a countertop template: ua-cam.com/video/2aaC2L7K7Ok/v-deo.html - Video about loose tenon joinery: ua-cam.com/video/Bx1Mg2mTMO0/v-deo.htmlsi=gou5UUvjZS9Te4Zg
★THIS VIDEO WAS MADE POSSIBLE BY★ Milescraft's very clever and affordable PocketJig200: amzn.to/3UPS9YV I love this little jig- it's gotten me out of several jams in the workshop. And at this price, it's easy to justify keeping around for when you need one too! *My hand tool collection includes premium tools from Bridge City Tool Works:* bridgecitytools.com/ *Please help support us by using the link above for a quick look around!* (If you use one of these affiliate links, we may receive a small commission) *Some other useful links:* -Check out our project plans: stumpynubs.com/product-category/plans/ -Instagram: instagram.com/stumpynubs/ -Twitter: twitter.com/StumpyNubs ★SOME OF MY FAVORITE INEXPENSIVE TOOLS★ - #ISOtunes Hearing Protection (Save 10%): bit.ly/3BHYdH7 -123 Blocks: lddy.no/vpij -Mechanical Pencils: amzn.to/2PA7bwK -Lumber pencil: amzn.to/2QtwZjv -Pocket Measuring Tape: amzn.to/2kNTlI9 -Nut/Bolt/Screw Gauge: amzn.to/2CuvxSK -Self-Centering Bits: amzn.to/2xs71UW -Steel Ruler: lddy.no/10mv7 -Center-Finding Ruler: lddy.no/10nak -Bit & Blade Cleaner: amzn.to/2TfvEOI -Narex Chisels: lddy.no/sqm3 -Mini Pull Saw: amzn.to/2UEHBz6 -Shinwa Rulers: lddy.no/zl13 -BOW Featherboards: amzn.to/430ldhv
(If you use one of the affiliate links above, we may receive a small commission)
As usual in 10 minutes I went from not knowing at all the difference he was going to say and now I can make a decision with confidence. Such a wonderful teacher.
I'm a very experienced cabinetmaker and I watch your videos for two reasons, one I may pick up something I could do different and two, every thing you explain is correct, if anyone who is novice in woodworking wants to learn take my advice and watch his videos he is probably the best teacher right at your fingertips
I am consistently amazed at how much I learn from every single Stumpy Nubs video I watch. Just when I think, "I don't need to watch this one," I get hit over the head with some amazing woodworking knowledge.
Nice vid. 👍🏻 This side of the pond we are told by manufacturers not to do a full mitre, in any material. We use a Mason mitre or a butt joint if square edge.
I made a butcher block countertop from two pieces. (Mine was straight, not L shape, end grain to end grain). I did a "pocket-dowl", bisket, dogbone joint with glue. 😂 I couldn't have been happier. A lot of work to get a straight joint, but wow it looks great! It is in a humidity controlled garage with a sink and undercabinet water pipe freeze protection (sink hole another major challenge and accomplishment for me). Finish is a floor oil based polyurethane(won't touch food directly like cutting on it). I learned SO much. This garage serves a dual purpose as a large gathering place. It turned out fantastic!
Hey Stumpy. Just wanted to say thanks for all the hard work you and your team do to share these things. You chippies (that’s Aussie for carpenter) carry a tradition that has been part of humanity since we first produced tools a gazillion years ago. I thank you for the wisdom you share and use it to improve the things I make for the vision impaired community with the help of my 3d printer. I love how wood has an active life after the piece is built which informs the design decisions right from the beginning of the project.
I wish I would have known you fifty years ago. Thank you for all you teach us, even if I'm not able to use it for years to come. I will use your info for as long as I can.
This is a great explanation on the miter joint countertop connection. I am glad you explained that one should not glue the spines or biscuits in these countertops. The drawbore bolts work perfectly.
Hi James, I understand the mason's mitre will still have the same wood movement issues as a butt joint, to make it work you still need the same fixing method as you describe for butt joints, but -there are no routed molding issues as the small mitre joint matches the molding on the edges of bench top -the joint looks really professional -there is less wood wastage as you are not doing a huge mitre -the mitre is small so you don't have the large mitre opening issues -it is the best of both worlds Also, i have just retired from paid work (67), I have been woodworking for 56 years, it has given me great pleasure and is a part of who I am. Over the journey I have lost capacity due to sport and work injuries so that I have had to make modifications and plan accordingly when making and installing projects. Ergonomic solutions such as working at a comfortable bench height, having simple material holding methods and modifying tools has enabled me to continue my craft. I have watched a lot of woodworking videos over the last few years but I haven't found a video that compiles all the smart ways for older, and/or slightly incapacitated woodworkers to keep making. If you could make a such a video I am sure it will be well received and would be a service to the older woodworking community. I have a few suggestions if it would assist you.
I worked in a cabinet shop years ago, and we had an order to make L shaped desk tops complete with 45 degree miters. We used MDF for the substrate, and glued on plastic laminate on the top. We used the draw bore type fasteners you used for your top, but it was a different design. It had a complete circle of steel to fit in both holes that were bored out. We bought a bunch of kits which included both sizes of drill bits, one for the bottom hole for the hardware to fit in, and the smaller bit for the perpendicular hole for the tightening rod to fit into. I thought the whole system was pretty slick! We hammered those tops out in two days!
MDF doesn't have the same movement issue as wood. OTOH, edge glue joints are especially bad, so draw-type fastening is good for that reason. Filling the entire hole is superior for MDF so that it doesn't tear up the fibers but applies pressure evenly.
I have made many mitered countertops in solid wood and have never had an issue with the joint opening up despite my initial concerns. Here are the tips I can offer: Use wood that has reached equilibrium via air drying to at most 15% moisture content. Cut the joint using your preferred saw or router method. I have always hand planed mine for a slightly sprung joint so the inside and outside corners are less likely to ever open. This has worked very well, but don’t overdo it; 1/32” gap is plenty. Use long, beefy loose tenons to keep the top surfaces aligned and to give strength to the joint. These will help keep the two pieces from separating and strengthen the joint while transporting the counter. Glue the loose tenons and end grain liberally. Use draw bolts to draw the two pieces together rather than messing with clamps. On 25” wide counters I have used 4 or 5 draw bolts with loose tenons between each one. Place the draw bolts as near to the inside and outside corners as possible to help keep the joint closed where it is most prone to opening. Have extra draw bolts ready in case you break one while closing the joint.
You must be psychic! I'm in the planning stage of building a desk for my study. This is exactly what I would have eventually had to search for. Thanks Stump!
holy crap this may have actually been your best video yet....been watching so many videos in the maker space and this is the first perfect video that helped things click in my head about wood movement but even better how to account for it! so awesome!
I always like your presentations, as you make good points. This one is no exception. A miter joint "seems" good, but there are subtle issues going on there. thanks.
within the first 2 minutes of this vid, my first thought was dogbones and splines. you are one of the few great woodworkers on youtube. backintheday when i was making office furniture, we used exactly that method. the surfaces were either finished veneer with solid trim, or some kind of laminate or solid surface product. the only field seams we glued were countertops where the joint was exposed particleboard. and btw good explanation on moisture change/acclimation issues.
It is very rare a stand to Watch someone explain something in front on the caméra . But every sentences are valuables , clears , easy to understand and illustrated so thanks ! 🔥🔥
Your original countertop video was the inspiration to do a similar build 4 years ago in my kitchen, but with Monkeypod butcher block & 2 miter joints on a U. Using the router to fine tune the joints was a god send & made the cut & fit up almost stress free. I even used the same finish... Cheers
Great video. A third way, complimentary curves with the router bit. The first 2” is 45deg so you can 45 mitre the edge profile, then radius the cut (1” or 2” radius) 45deg to a butt joint. This is how the Pros do it. I know you have a great video on complimentary curve router templates… I watch it each time I need to do it
In 1993 I worked for a cabinet shop where the owner did custom kitchen countertops. He cut all his mitres with a skill saw and then jointed them with a large Porter Cable router and a precision straight edge. All were fastened together with the bolt type fasteners you show.
The amount of raw info and knowledge here in 10mins is just frigging amazing! For me it was so pretty much. I know something. Nope, I didn't. Also, here are 10 other things I didn't know about of which I can rabbit hole! Amazing vid!
Perfect video. That's just how we used to do it. Only thing that could be added is to run a router between the 2 pieces, clamped down close to each other, before assembly or in the shop before you go to the site. The joint between them will be so perfect that you literally can't see it.
An excellent lesson, well done video. If you have a video on the nature and properties of wood, you should add a link to it here. Those basics should be one of the first things any woodworker learns.
Excellent info/video. The only thing I'd add is that I like to add some finish to the ends when connecting large pieces like this. It helps to reduce the amount of movement you'll get and also prevents swelling at the ends (especially in a kitchen where spills are inevitable). Just be sure that it's nicely dry before assembling the two pieces together so that it doesn't act like glue. I've also used clear silicone on the ends in the past for the same purposes and it moves/flexes with the wood as it moves around and acts like a seal to keep anything out of any tiny imperfections in the joint.
Thanks so much for this info. I was wondering about which joinery was best for countertops and I’ve seen those mechanical connectors. Your videos are the best!
Made my wife’s computer desk a couple years back. Used both 45 degree and butt joint (one side of L was 3 boards wide, other 4 boards. Thought it was a different and interesting looking joint. Still holding up strong so far.
Terrific video James,, I've been installing millwork for decades and you expertly and throughly covered a subject that even though we put in dozens of tops a month we rarely get too install, wooden tops. There is an argument out there that the first fifth (aprox) of the outside end of a miter can be glued allowing the rest of the joint to move. Seems too me like a recipe for a call back but soom guys swear by it. We only use draw bolts, pocket screws are too sketchy. So 3/4 tops are verboten. The top can be built up with additional plywood at the joint and the edge covered with an molding band.
Hi James, thanks for the video. I have used a mason's mitre joint for kitchen benchtops both solid timber and laminate on particle board. You can buy an expensive jig or make your own in about half an hour.
Mason's miters are not that common with solid wood countertops, at least here. Laminates, composites and granite/quartz- sure, but not so much with solid wood. It's essentially just a butt joint with a small miter in the inner corner, and as such, it's subject to the same wood movement issues as a regular butt joint.
Your always so informative and I learn so much from your videos. Really appreciate you sharing your knowledge and now I know why the butcher block counter top I installed in my 5th wheel split open = I didn't allow room for the screws to move when I screwed it down on each end.
Yet another video showing why this is my favorite woodworking channel. One question though James, regarding the dog bone bolts. It looks like the set of holes and the slot cut a fair amount of wood away from the joint. Doesn't it weaken it to take away that much wood? To ask a differently, if I was making a thinner tabletop, would such an approach not work?
I don't believe it weakens it to any significant extent. The hardware pulls the two edges together tightly, as if it were a single piece. They may make smaller hardware for thinner materials.
Well, not saying that any of this is bad advice, but I built my L-shaped kitchen counters (two of them joined together at the sink to make a U-shape) out of construction lumber six or seven years ago. I didn't know any better, so they are butt-jointed with dowels and glue (waterproof of course), and the ends have breadboards also joined with dowels, and glue. The only joint that has opened up is the breadboard that is right up against the sink, because it is constantly getting soaked. Everything else is still good as new. Mind you, I did put five coats of exterior-grade varnish on the thing, including the underside, so although our house varies a lot in temperature and humidity, chances are the wood doesn't that much. In any case, should I run into trouble down the road, that is the very reason I chose the cheapest wood available: it won't break the bank too much if I have to re-do it.
Explanation was perfect. But also as important, is to seal underneath to equalize humidity intake. A perfect joint of a flat sealed miter,meeting an unsealed guaranteed to bow opposing miter.
Thank you very much for your videos. Even though I am not a native speaker, everything is very easy to understand. One question that I have not seen in videos is the connection of table tops to the underframes. Especially in terms of increasing or decreasing the size of the wood by itself. Maybe you can share some insight what to consider in this cases. This could be very helpful. THX
Search for table top fasteners. There are several types. A “Z” style where one end rides in a slot on the side that will move, an “L” style where one side has a tight hole and the other has an oval hole, and, a figure “8” style…I haven’t used this one. Hope this helps!
after watching your videos i think i may try building my own countertops. was going to redo the kitchen anyway but rather than buying OSB or particalboard with laminate - i may as well leverage the small collection of tools i have now. idk if ill need more? tablesaw, router table, bandsaw, miter, planer, and lots of bit sets.
Nice job explaining wood movement!! I see all these composite Epoxy tables and furniture. Do you have any extended knowledge or experience with how large wood slabs can get covered or combined with epoxy and how the interfaces of the two deal with the wood movement? There also seems to be a lot of awareness of this when connecting tops to bases which makes sense but still makes me ask the question of the epoxy idea again. How is this possible? Over time I would guess the two would separate on humid seasons.
Great video! Very helpful. I'm considering making custom counter tops for our kitchen. Do you have recommendations for a durable food safe finish? Thank you.
One thing I would like to understand is where the actual movement of the wood goes. For instance, when dealing with a countertop and a 90 degree butt joint, should the expansion of the wood be towards the wall, or towards the outside of the cabinets?
What a great video! Thank you. By the way. I bought the Milescraft pocket hole jig using your link. Thank you for telling us about it. Happy to help support your channel and great content.
I was really wondering what the connector for the miter joint was going to look like, and when you showed it I literally said "Oh!" I was picturing cables and a turnbuckle, which is conceptually close to your real solution but I think would be more complicated to execute.
THANK YOU so much for this video!! As I am no carpenter!! But due to the current economic situation we find ourselves in, I've sorta been forced to learn and complete our kitchen. I'm mean, I have made some pretty nice woodworking projects for ourselves and others. But a complete kitchen is a completely different animal, imho. Anyway, I have two of these types of corners to contend with. Which has had me somewhat concerned about how to pull it off, without the problems that were discussed within this video. So again, Thank You Sir for covering this!! What are the odds of this video coming out at the same time I'm approaching this point.
What are your thoughts on securing the counter top to the cabinets with the same thought process of allowing movement for expansion and contraction? I may be over thinking this....
i know it was an ad.. but i love that Milescraft jig. used it was years, only upgraded when i started needing to make a lot more pocket holes. But even with having. massca jig, i still found use for the Milescraft while building a float for our local Christmas parade. large and oddly shaped pieces that i could bring the jig to vs the piece to the jig
You can't prevent it. Wood is going to move, that's part of it's nature. But in a climate-controlled environment (inside your house) it will not be very noticeable. I live in Michigan where we have cold, dry winters and hot, humid summers. My counters look fine. But if I had used glue instead of mechanical fasteners to join it together, I would have a problem because the small amount of movement I still get would have caused the glue to fail.
When butt jointing edge profiled slabs, couldn't you also jack-miter the joint? I've never done it on large slabs, but for picture frames and cabinet door panel frames. I'd think it would be the same process scaled up, no?
Thank you! But when you asked if I could see the difference in the joint I had not looked at the joint itself since I was still taking in the whole project. A second longer in the editing would have taken away the frustrating thought of "NO, you cut away!". See how minuscule the details have to be to criticize you, great work :).
could the miter be help from underneath with large bars or something like c channel secured only at the ends? allowing the wood movement but holding the pieces together?
Any chance for a video on how to protect 12000 grit mirror finished wood? Ideally with pros/cons of different means to do so. Very hard to find anything conclusive about this problem, so maybe it's a dumb approach to begin with, in which case learning why would also be great.
G' Day mate Greetings from Croatia Great job as always I have a question, your opinion and anyone who's reading this Im about to build a big huge church door And im thinking make it hollow for the weight sake, something like a house frame out of wood, then put some 2 +inch thick wooden panels around it. Stractualy is sound but im woried about condesation and creating some water inside etc., and get a problems later What are your toughts Thanks
Few things to point out: 1.there are ways to compensate for different rate of grain expansion without needing a miter joint. 2.Joining two wide countertops with a permanent (glued all the way through) miter joint does not guarantee there will be no cracks as the expansion/contraction is not linear and uniform across the long joint. 3. Miters use more material. Youd think there is no difference, but even in this example, the piece on the left can be short if you butt it up against the right counter top, but the right one has to be the entire length regardless of joint. Sure, You could just make a single cut, flip the offcut over and route the peofile after the cut has been made, but that means bottom side has to be of the same grain pattern. Nothing against miter joints on countertops, but allowing for some movement with elongated slip joints solves the cracking problem. You start at the back corner with a fixed dowel or floating tenon for reference and move towards the front edge increasing width of the tenon slots. Add a few metal fixings with a bit of sideways give to keep the joint tight and You’ve solved the problem. Seeing how unless the cabinet underneath is also the same species hardwood, You would need to fix the countertop to the cabinet with same compensating joinery regardless of how the tops themselves are joined.
1. This video shows some of those ways. I am not saying you have to do a miter joint. 2. I specifically said NOT to glue any of the joints in this video (not just the miter) and explained why in detail. 3. The two halves of the miter joint were built separately, not cut from a single slab. There was some waste, but not in the way you think. 4. You seem to think this video is just about miter joints. Did you watch the whole thing? 5. "Elongated slip joints"- That's essentially what I demonstrate with the loose tenons in this video. You really should have watched the whole thing... 6. Yes, a countertop is attached to the cabinet in a way that also allows for movement. This is covered in other videos on this channel.
@@StumpyNubsthank You for the reply, and yes, having watched the video to the end, You do address these points later on. Done my share of countertops and jumped straight to comments before watching it to the end, my bad. A good video, as always.
▼ *IMPORTANT DETAILS ABOUT VIDEO:* ▼
Other videos in countertop series►
-Video clip showing dog bone bolt installation: ua-cam.com/video/zQxNQdj3f7E/v-deo.html
-Video about loose tenon joinery: ua-cam.com/video/Bx1Mg2mTMO0/v-deo.html
-Video about making a countertop template: ua-cam.com/video/2aaC2L7K7Ok/v-deo.html
- Video about loose tenon joinery: ua-cam.com/video/Bx1Mg2mTMO0/v-deo.htmlsi=gou5UUvjZS9Te4Zg
★THIS VIDEO WAS MADE POSSIBLE BY★
Milescraft's very clever and affordable PocketJig200: amzn.to/3UPS9YV
I love this little jig- it's gotten me out of several jams in the workshop. And at this price, it's easy to justify keeping around for when you need one too!
*My hand tool collection includes premium tools from Bridge City Tool Works:* bridgecitytools.com/
*Please help support us by using the link above for a quick look around!*
(If you use one of these affiliate links, we may receive a small commission)
*Some other useful links:*
-Check out our project plans: stumpynubs.com/product-category/plans/
-Instagram: instagram.com/stumpynubs/
-Twitter: twitter.com/StumpyNubs
★SOME OF MY FAVORITE INEXPENSIVE TOOLS★
- #ISOtunes Hearing Protection (Save 10%): bit.ly/3BHYdH7
-123 Blocks: lddy.no/vpij
-Mechanical Pencils: amzn.to/2PA7bwK
-Lumber pencil: amzn.to/2QtwZjv
-Pocket Measuring Tape: amzn.to/2kNTlI9
-Nut/Bolt/Screw Gauge: amzn.to/2CuvxSK
-Self-Centering Bits: amzn.to/2xs71UW
-Steel Ruler: lddy.no/10mv7
-Center-Finding Ruler: lddy.no/10nak
-Bit & Blade Cleaner: amzn.to/2TfvEOI
-Narex Chisels: lddy.no/sqm3
-Mini Pull Saw: amzn.to/2UEHBz6
-Shinwa Rulers: lddy.no/zl13
-BOW Featherboards: amzn.to/430ldhv
(If you use one of the affiliate links above, we may receive a small commission)
I'm a very visual person. I can't tell you how much I appreciate the effort you put into the illustrations to convey your point!
Plus he talks real good.
Show, don’t tell. It’s video after all. It’s remarkable how many tubers forget that point.
Came here to say basically the same thing. You have fired me up about improving my house.
As usual in 10 minutes I went from not knowing at all the difference he was going to say and now I can make a decision with confidence. Such a wonderful teacher.
I'm a very experienced cabinetmaker and I watch your videos for two reasons, one I may pick up something I could do different and two, every thing you explain is correct, if anyone who is novice in woodworking wants to learn take my advice and watch his videos he is probably the best teacher right at your fingertips
I am consistently amazed at how much I learn from every single Stumpy Nubs video I watch. Just when I think, "I don't need to watch this one," I get hit over the head with some amazing woodworking knowledge.
Nice vid. 👍🏻
This side of the pond we are told by manufacturers not to do a full mitre, in any material.
We use a Mason mitre or a butt joint if square edge.
I made a butcher block countertop from two pieces. (Mine was straight, not L shape, end grain to end grain). I did a "pocket-dowl", bisket, dogbone joint with glue. 😂 I couldn't have been happier. A lot of work to get a straight joint, but wow it looks great! It is in a humidity controlled garage with a sink and undercabinet water pipe freeze protection (sink hole another major challenge and accomplishment for me). Finish is a floor oil based polyurethane(won't touch food directly like cutting on it). I learned SO much. This garage serves a dual purpose as a large gathering place. It turned out fantastic!
Hey Stumpy. Just wanted to say thanks for all the hard work you and your team do to share these things. You chippies (that’s Aussie for carpenter) carry a tradition that has been part of humanity since we first produced tools a gazillion years ago. I thank you for the wisdom you share and use it to improve the things I make for the vision impaired community with the help of my 3d printer.
I love how wood has an active life after the piece is built which informs the design decisions right from the beginning of the project.
I wish I would have known you fifty years ago. Thank you for all you teach us, even if I'm not able to use it for years to come. I will use your info for as long as I can.
This is a great explanation on the miter joint countertop connection. I am glad you explained that one should not glue the spines or biscuits in these countertops. The drawbore bolts work perfectly.
Hi James,
I understand the mason's mitre will still have the same wood movement issues as a butt joint, to make it work you still need the same fixing method as you describe for butt joints, but
-there are no routed molding issues as the small mitre joint matches the molding on the edges of bench top
-the joint looks really professional
-there is less wood wastage as you are not doing a huge mitre
-the mitre is small so you don't have the large mitre opening issues
-it is the best of both worlds
Also, i have just retired from paid work (67), I have been woodworking for 56 years, it has given me great pleasure and is a part of who I am. Over the journey I have lost capacity due to sport and work injuries so that I have had to make modifications and plan accordingly when making and installing projects. Ergonomic solutions such as working at a comfortable bench height, having simple material holding methods and modifying tools has enabled me to continue my craft.
I have watched a lot of woodworking videos over the last few years but I haven't found a video that compiles all the smart ways for older, and/or slightly incapacitated woodworkers to keep making.
If you could make a such a video I am sure it will be well received and would be a service to the older woodworking community.
I have a few suggestions if it would assist you.
It never ceases to amaze me how good you are at making this sort of content. Fantastic work as always, Stumpy. I appreciate you bro 👍🏽
Amazing video AGAIN - concise, visually rich with information, perfect amount of commentary. You are an example for all other DIY youtubers to follow!
James, Thank you for posting this video. I'm making a desk for myself right now, and i was diong a butt joint for the desktop. This was perfect timing
16 years as a carpenter and I'm still learning... thanks
I worked in a cabinet shop years ago, and we had an order to make L shaped desk tops complete with 45 degree miters. We used MDF for the substrate, and glued on plastic laminate on the top. We used the draw bore type fasteners you used for your top, but it was a different design. It had a complete circle of steel to fit in both holes that were bored out. We bought a bunch of kits which included both sizes of drill bits, one for the bottom hole for the hardware to fit in, and the smaller bit for the perpendicular hole for the tightening rod to fit into. I thought the whole system was pretty slick! We hammered those tops out in two days!
MDF doesn't have the same movement issue as wood. OTOH, edge glue joints are especially bad, so draw-type fastening is good for that reason. Filling the entire hole is superior for MDF so that it doesn't tear up the fibers but applies pressure evenly.
Not many other channels are making content like this. This important information that a lot of other creators fail to mention. Thanks for the info.
I have made many mitered countertops in solid wood and have never had an issue with the joint opening up despite my initial concerns. Here are the tips I can offer:
Use wood that has reached equilibrium via air drying to at most 15% moisture content.
Cut the joint using your preferred saw or router method. I have always hand planed mine for a slightly sprung joint so the inside and outside corners are less likely to ever open. This has worked very well, but don’t overdo it; 1/32” gap is plenty.
Use long, beefy loose tenons to keep the top surfaces aligned and to give strength to the joint. These will help keep the two pieces from separating and strengthen the joint while transporting the counter.
Glue the loose tenons and end grain liberally.
Use draw bolts to draw the two pieces together rather than messing with clamps. On 25” wide counters I have used 4 or 5 draw bolts with loose tenons between each one. Place the draw bolts as near to the inside and outside corners as possible to help keep the joint closed where it is most prone to opening.
Have extra draw bolts ready in case you break one while closing the joint.
I agree completely.
Thank you Stumpy! That was excellent. Ten minutes of my day that will last a lifetime.
You must be psychic! I'm in the planning stage of building a desk for my study. This is exactly what I would have eventually had to search for. Thanks Stump!
So, are you going with a butt joint or miter?
holy crap this may have actually been your best video yet....been watching so many videos in the maker space and this is the first perfect video that helped things click in my head about wood movement but even better how to account for it! so awesome!
Right when I’m about to redo the kitchen countertop with an L. Superb timing, and lightning clear as always
Very useful tips, and the over-exaggerated diagrams/visuals really help in understanding! I appreciate the video, thank you.
I always like your presentations, as you make good points. This one is no exception. A miter joint "seems" good, but there are subtle issues going on there. thanks.
within the first 2 minutes of this vid, my first thought was dogbones and splines. you are one of the few great woodworkers on youtube. backintheday when i was making office furniture, we used exactly that method. the surfaces were either finished veneer with solid trim, or some kind of laminate or solid surface product. the only field seams we glued were countertops where the joint was exposed particleboard. and btw good explanation on moisture change/acclimation issues.
It is very rare a stand to Watch someone explain something in front on the caméra . But every sentences are valuables , clears , easy to understand and illustrated so thanks ! 🔥🔥
A brilliant video that explains so much about wood movement and jointing. You are great at passing on your expertise to all your followers. Thanks.
Your original countertop video was the inspiration to do a similar build 4 years ago in my kitchen, but with Monkeypod butcher block & 2 miter joints on a U. Using the router to fine tune the joints was a god send & made the cut & fit up almost stress free. I even used the same finish... Cheers
Great video. A third way, complimentary curves with the router bit. The first 2” is 45deg so you can 45 mitre the edge profile, then radius the cut (1” or 2” radius) 45deg to a butt joint.
This is how the Pros do it.
I know you have a great video on complimentary curve router templates… I watch it each time I need to do it
Fantastic indeed! Thanks a bunch, James! 😃
Stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊
In 1993 I worked for a cabinet shop where the owner did custom kitchen countertops. He cut all his mitres with a skill saw and then jointed them with a large Porter Cable router and a precision straight edge. All were fastened together with the bolt type fasteners you show.
The amount of raw info and knowledge here in 10mins is just frigging amazing!
For me it was so pretty much.
I know something.
Nope, I didn't.
Also, here are 10 other things I didn't know about of which I can rabbit hole!
Amazing vid!
Perfect video. That's just how we used to do it.
Only thing that could be added is to run a router between the 2 pieces, clamped down close to each other, before assembly or in the shop before you go to the site. The joint between them will be so perfect that you literally can't see it.
Hell yeah! I bought one of those pocket hole jigs before this video. It's great!
An excellent lesson, well done video. If you have a video on the nature and properties of wood, you should add a link to it here. Those basics should be one of the first things any woodworker learns.
i don't really understand how you can put out banger after banger with such a high frequency of uploads, but i'm glad you do!
Excellent info/video. The only thing I'd add is that I like to add some finish to the ends when connecting large pieces like this. It helps to reduce the amount of movement you'll get and also prevents swelling at the ends (especially in a kitchen where spills are inevitable). Just be sure that it's nicely dry before assembling the two pieces together so that it doesn't act like glue.
I've also used clear silicone on the ends in the past for the same purposes and it moves/flexes with the wood as it moves around and acts like a seal to keep anything out of any tiny imperfections in the joint.
Thanks, I was just learning about the grain and wondering about slab joinery.
Thank you for soo much great information. You do a great job of explaining the 'whys' as well as the 'hows'
Thanks so much for this info. I was wondering about which joinery was best for countertops and I’ve seen those mechanical connectors. Your videos are the best!
Milescraft Getting some love in the wood working community I'm onboard for this!
Made my wife’s computer desk a couple years back. Used both 45 degree and butt joint (one side of L was 3 boards wide, other 4 boards. Thought it was a different and interesting looking joint. Still holding up strong so far.
Terrific video James,, I've been installing millwork for decades and you expertly and throughly covered a subject that even though we put in dozens of tops a month we rarely get too install, wooden tops. There is an argument out there that the first fifth (aprox) of the outside end of a miter can be glued allowing the rest of the joint to move. Seems too me like a recipe for a call back but soom guys swear by it. We only use draw bolts, pocket screws are too sketchy. So 3/4 tops are verboten. The top can be built up with additional plywood at the joint and the edge covered with an molding band.
You are a wonderful teacher. Thank you
Hi James, thanks for the video. I have used a mason's mitre joint for kitchen benchtops both solid timber and laminate on particle board. You can buy an expensive jig or make your own in about half an hour.
Mason's miters are not that common with solid wood countertops, at least here. Laminates, composites and granite/quartz- sure, but not so much with solid wood. It's essentially just a butt joint with a small miter in the inner corner, and as such, it's subject to the same wood movement issues as a regular butt joint.
Your always so informative and I learn so much from your videos. Really appreciate you sharing your knowledge and now I know why the butcher block counter top I installed in my 5th wheel split open = I didn't allow room for the screws to move when I screwed it down on each end.
Yet another video showing why this is my favorite woodworking channel. One question though James, regarding the dog bone bolts. It looks like the set of holes and the slot cut a fair amount of wood away from the joint. Doesn't it weaken it to take away that much wood? To ask a differently, if I was making a thinner tabletop, would such an approach not work?
I don't believe it weakens it to any significant extent. The hardware pulls the two edges together tightly, as if it were a single piece. They may make smaller hardware for thinner materials.
Those are some brilliant joinery methods! Thanks for sharing
Spectacular teaching James.
Great vid. Excellent explanation of the two joints and the challenges each pose, and with methods to successfully make the joints.
I install solid black walnut countertops and have had great success using double action fasteners theyre quick easy and adjustable.
Well, not saying that any of this is bad advice, but I built my L-shaped kitchen counters (two of them joined together at the sink to make a U-shape) out of construction lumber six or seven years ago. I didn't know any better, so they are butt-jointed with dowels and glue (waterproof of course), and the ends have breadboards also joined with dowels, and glue. The only joint that has opened up is the breadboard that is right up against the sink, because it is constantly getting soaked. Everything else is still good as new. Mind you, I did put five coats of exterior-grade varnish on the thing, including the underside, so although our house varies a lot in temperature and humidity, chances are the wood doesn't that much. In any case, should I run into trouble down the road, that is the very reason I chose the cheapest wood available: it won't break the bank too much if I have to re-do it.
Explanation was perfect.
But also as important, is to seal underneath to equalize humidity intake.
A perfect joint of a flat sealed miter,meeting an unsealed guaranteed to bow opposing miter.
I agree with you completely about Milescraft products!
Nice pockethole jig! Thanks for showing it.
Thank you very much for your videos. Even though I am not a native speaker, everything is very easy to understand. One question that I have not seen in videos is the connection of table tops to the underframes. Especially in terms of increasing or decreasing the size of the wood by itself. Maybe you can share some insight what to consider in this cases. This could be very helpful. THX
Search for table top fasteners. There are several types. A “Z” style where one end rides in a slot on the side that will move, an “L” style where one side has a tight hole and the other has an oval hole, and, a figure “8” style…I haven’t used this one.
Hope this helps!
Super awesome video. I just got a lesson. Now I understand why my boards on my rails keep acting the fool.
Another excellent & informative video James! Thanks! 👍👍🔨🔨
That’s a beautiful countertop! Thanks for sharing.
after watching your videos i think i may try building my own countertops. was going to redo the kitchen anyway but rather than buying OSB or particalboard with laminate - i may as well leverage the small collection of tools i have now. idk if ill need more? tablesaw, router table, bandsaw, miter, planer, and lots of bit sets.
Thank you so much! I always learn so much from your videos.
An incredibly informative and well-presented video.
Good stuff Mr. Nubbs. Keep the good stuff coming.
Nice job explaining wood movement!! I see all these composite Epoxy tables and furniture. Do you have any extended knowledge or experience with how large wood slabs can get covered or combined with epoxy and how the interfaces of the two deal with the wood movement? There also seems to be a lot of awareness of this when connecting tops to bases which makes sense but still makes me ask the question of the epoxy idea again. How is this possible? Over time I would guess the two would separate on humid seasons.
If there were an Academy Award for Best Videos, you would win all of them.
Another great tip. Thanks James
Great video! Very helpful. I'm considering making custom counter tops for our kitchen. Do you have recommendations for a durable food safe finish? Thank you.
Well I thought I knew how to join large panels. I guess I didn't. But I think I do know now. Thanks James.🙂🙂
Excellent video, was wondering about replacing kitchen countertops
One thing I would like to understand is where the actual movement of the wood goes. For instance, when dealing with a countertop and a 90 degree butt joint, should the expansion of the wood be towards the wall, or towards the outside of the cabinets?
A superb video. Thoughtful explanations, great video to supplement.
What a great video! Thank you. By the way. I bought the Milescraft pocket hole jig using your link. Thank you for telling us about it. Happy to help support your channel and great content.
Another worthwhile video, James. Thank you for sharing.
I was really wondering what the connector for the miter joint was going to look like, and when you showed it I literally said "Oh!"
I was picturing cables and a turnbuckle, which is conceptually close to your real solution but I think would be more complicated to execute.
Awesome video. Great teaching I can use.
This is was super educational. Earned a subscriber with this one!
Great tips as always thanks for sharing
Very nice, informative video. Thanks!
Im getting ready to remodel my kitchen and I forgot all about the dog bone connector. Thanks
What about running the grain in the same direction? Thinking of making a u shaped desk/hobby table.
THANK YOU so much for this video!! As I am no carpenter!! But due to the current economic situation we find ourselves in, I've sorta been forced to learn and complete our kitchen. I'm mean, I have made some pretty nice woodworking projects for ourselves and others. But a complete kitchen is a completely different animal, imho.
Anyway, I have two of these types of corners to contend with. Which has had me somewhat concerned about how to pull it off, without the problems that were discussed within this video. So again, Thank You Sir for covering this!! What are the odds of this video coming out at the same time I'm approaching this point.
Great information Stumpy! Thank you.
Very vlesr cut, conscise, and informative thanks
What are your thoughts on securing the counter top to the cabinets with the same thought process of allowing movement for expansion and contraction?
I may be over thinking this....
Thank you James. Very interesting. 😊😊😊❤❤❤
i know it was an ad.. but i love that Milescraft jig. used it was years, only upgraded when i started needing to make a lot more pocket holes. But even with having. massca jig, i still found use for the Milescraft while building a float for our local Christmas parade. large and oddly shaped pieces that i could bring the jig to vs the piece to the jig
I would love if you could elaborate more on why mitre joints seems to always open up on the inside, and how to prevent this.
You can't prevent it. Wood is going to move, that's part of it's nature. But in a climate-controlled environment (inside your house) it will not be very noticeable. I live in Michigan where we have cold, dry winters and hot, humid summers. My counters look fine. But if I had used glue instead of mechanical fasteners to join it together, I would have a problem because the small amount of movement I still get would have caused the glue to fail.
When butt jointing edge profiled slabs, couldn't you also jack-miter the joint? I've never done it on large slabs, but for picture frames and cabinet door panel frames. I'd think it would be the same process scaled up, no?
Hello, would you still use this same process if the countertops were to be painted? how about MDF or plywood countertops?
Another topic so we’ll explained. Thanks James!
Thank you! But when you asked if I could see the difference in the joint I had not looked at the joint itself since I was still taking in the whole project. A second longer in the editing would have taken away the frustrating thought of "NO, you cut away!".
See how minuscule the details have to be to criticize you, great work :).
The left arrow on your keyboard jumps a video back 10 seconds, and the spacebar pauses it.
could the miter be help from underneath with large bars or something like c channel secured only at the ends? allowing the wood movement but holding the pieces together?
YOU "are" crazy awesome man... keep it up !
Any chance for a video on how to protect 12000 grit mirror finished wood? Ideally with pros/cons of different means to do so.
Very hard to find anything conclusive about this problem, so maybe it's a dumb approach to begin with, in which case learning why would also be great.
Excellent video. Thanks
For the miter joint: doesn't this mean the two wings would essentially 'flap'? Seeing as how the angle of the mitered edge changes as the wood moves?
What type of wood do you recommend for counter top in a kitchen?
G' Day mate
Greetings from Croatia
Great job as always
I have a question, your opinion and anyone who's reading this
Im about to build a big huge church door
And im thinking make it hollow for the weight sake, something like a house frame out of wood, then put some 2 +inch thick wooden panels around it.
Stractualy is sound but im woried about condesation and creating some water inside etc., and get a problems later
What are your toughts
Thanks
Thank you!
Few things to point out:
1.there are ways to compensate for different rate of grain expansion without needing a miter joint.
2.Joining two wide countertops with a permanent (glued all the way through) miter joint does not guarantee there will be no cracks as the expansion/contraction is not linear and uniform across the long joint.
3. Miters use more material. Youd think there is no difference, but even in this example, the piece on the left can be short if you butt it up against the right counter top, but the right one has to be the entire length regardless of joint. Sure, You could just make a single cut, flip the offcut over and route the peofile after the cut has been made, but that means bottom side has to be of the same grain pattern.
Nothing against miter joints on countertops, but allowing for some movement with elongated slip joints solves the cracking problem. You start at the back corner with a fixed dowel or floating tenon for reference and move towards the front edge increasing width of the tenon slots. Add a few metal fixings with a bit of sideways give to keep the joint tight and You’ve solved the problem. Seeing how unless the cabinet underneath is also the same species hardwood, You would need to fix the countertop to the cabinet with same compensating joinery regardless of how the tops themselves are joined.
1. This video shows some of those ways. I am not saying you have to do a miter joint.
2. I specifically said NOT to glue any of the joints in this video (not just the miter) and explained why in detail.
3. The two halves of the miter joint were built separately, not cut from a single slab. There was some waste, but not in the way you think.
4. You seem to think this video is just about miter joints. Did you watch the whole thing?
5. "Elongated slip joints"- That's essentially what I demonstrate with the loose tenons in this video. You really should have watched the whole thing...
6. Yes, a countertop is attached to the cabinet in a way that also allows for movement. This is covered in other videos on this channel.
@@StumpyNubsthank You for the reply, and yes, having watched the video to the end, You do address these points later on. Done my share of countertops and jumped straight to comments before watching it to the end, my bad. A good video, as always.