I’m not sure why you spend so much time pointing out the lies of these money grabbing “so called progressive churches” why not spend time trying to bring people to Jesus, instead of spending all you time on this garbage.
Thank you for your work Mike, it's so important because you speak with love and not rancor or sarcasm as other channels do and with which I'm really uncomfortable. This work is vital as there are millions of people resting on false doctrines that will not bring salvation, I was one and frankly the stuff that's thrown at you 35 yrs later is far more subtle and carnal than that which I had to contend with. My guess is that it's an ongoing fulfillment of Revelations and a human spirit that will brook no authority nor bear any bridle - only the blinkers seem to be acceptable.
@@thebibletrain8297 because many people are falling for this kind of no one is wrong mentality, especially college age kids. It may not be your particular type of ministry but I think Mike did well to shed light on the thinking of this age and give those of us who don't experience it on a regular basis, a glimpse into what is going on within the church.
@dread nes Mike has answered some of those questions in your first paragraph in other videos and I think the answers would actually surprise you. The gospel does mean good news. We can't avoid the fact, however, that Christ preached more about hell, than he did heaven. As far as your questions go, a survey of the scripture gives us a pretty sound Idea that those who never heard the gospel, which is becoming fewer in this age due to its accessibility, still make moral choices on a regular basis and all of us have a conscience inside that we can either listen to or sear. Listening to Mikes teaching on this however was helpful for me and you may get something out of it as well. The prophets and people before Christ operated under the promise of God that a messiah would come. It is by grace you are saved, through faith. Abraham's faith was counted to him as righteousness.. The same for those who lived before Christ. If your faith is in God, you will not be put to shame. Christ would not have preached on the lake of fire so much if it wasn't reality. The Lazarus story gives insight that the way hell is described is accurate. To reject Christ is to reject the salvation he offers us. The wages of sin is death, but there is a second death and the scripture says: Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. Rev.. 20:14 The 10 commandments were given by a loving God to get us to see our sin, then Christ came and further brought it to our eyes in the sermon on the mount. A loving God came in the flesh and died on the cross, to rise again so that we would believe and could be forgiven.
@The bible approves Abortion Your youtube name says everything about your reasoning. It is entirely conceived through emotion, self deception, and lack of knowledge of what The Bible actually says. If you understood the word the Lord gave you would understand that yes, we do have to be told to honor our father and mother because it establishes a condition of reverence and submitting to those in authority over us such as God. The first four commandments are for us to see that God is a moral standard that we don't come anywhere close to meeting and the fleshing out of that is that he lovingly works through our man made messes, such as slavery, progressively leading us out of our sinful nature to follow him. The sabbath was so that man took time to rest and remember the gifts God has given. The moral laws of the commandments teach us how to love our fellow man/woman. Christ said all of the Law is fulfilled in 2 commands however. Love the Lord with all your heart, soul, mind and strength: and love your neighbor as you love yourself. Its a wake up call to a people who are so self absorbed they seek to serve their self above the interest of others. You mistake Gods working through sinful man, and attribute the sins to God himself. We are not a product of our environment either. Maybe a short period of time we live in relation to our environment but as conscious beings we choose how we respond to our environment which is what makes us different from an animal. If I grow up with an abusive father, I choose to accept that life of abuse or leave it. If I loose my father at a young age, as I did, I can either blame my environment for my obstacles or change my circumstances. The fact that Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, and any other group or religion come to Christ shows that we are not permanently rooted to our environment. Being angry at a God you don't take the time to understand doesn't change whether his claims are true or false.
The guy conveniently leaves out an important element in his interpretation of the prodigal son story; the son admits that he had sinned before his father and God. He had acted foolishly - he had been WRONG! Yes, your Father will see you coming and joyously welcome you home, but he won't see you unless you first repent and then turn around.
Exactly. The writer of that post ignores one of the most important parts: the prodigal son CHOSE to return. When the father saw that choice he ran to meet him. He didn't run out to get him when he was partying, or even when he was living in filth and eating with pigs. The son was never forced to return.
But what prompts the son’s return home? His memories of his Father’s love. If he didn’t know that home would be better than a pig pen, he wouldn’t have returned. Likewise, we are driven to repentance after hearing the Word. “We love because he first loved us.”
By your own standards you are not saved. You absolutely have not repented of all your sins either. Not even close to Trying doesn't count. Jonah 3:10 calls turning from sins "works". Repentance of sins is a lifetime of works and has never saved anyone or contributed in any way to salvation. If repentance of sins helps save you in any way then it had better be perfect repentance. God's standard is absolute perfection. Not even one sin is allowed to be in Heaven. The book of James says that if you follow the whole law and offend in one point you are guilty of all. Oops. So much for your helping out with salvation. God grants repentance unto the acknowledgement of the truth. The only repentance that saves is realizing that you are a sinner deserving of God's just punishment in Hell and turn (repent) from whatever you trusted in before to trusting in the person and finished work of Christ " alone " for salvation. How can you possibly trust Christ alone for salvation when you are also trusting in your performance (repenting of sins)? You absolutely can't. Our good works, repenting of sins, and obedience, are solely for rewards in Heaven or a lack thereof and have absolutely nothing to do with salvation at all. The only reason anyone will ever be in Heaven is solely by the perfect life, shed blood, death, burial, and resurrection, of Jesus Christ alone. Anything added or subtracted from this is another gospel.
This is truth brother! This is why Paul writes in Ephesians 2:8-10. Saved by grace for good works, not by good works! And even if we fall away from the works he has set out before us, His grace is STILL sufficient!
We have to understand that the progressive Christian movement was birthed out of the belief that conservative Christians aren’t loving, and are identified by what they are against instead of what they are for. Progressives in my opinion made an over correction saying that “we love and accept everyone even if u don’t believe in the Christian god”. This should be an eye opener for everyone in the church. We need to be more loving( and willing to show our love for people) and accepting without compromising the gospel and our beliefs about god in general. Keep up the good work mike! :)
They don't want to be a light that pays a price for shedding it. They take a high moral high ground and a unquestionable image, like our represenetives.
Yup this is correct. The problem is that conservatives have been in loving and too judgemental. But progressives think changing the truth is loving but that not true at all.
I would agree with you to an extent. You bring up great points. However from what I found when speaking to those who oppose Christianity and call it judgmental is their opposition to an uncomfortable truth that exposes our sin. The definition of sin so to speak. You can speak and treat an individual with the most “ lovey feeling good” actions while sharing the truth and it would continue being deemed as unloving. The truth will seem unloving to those who love their sin. It guts us in our pride and forces us to either reject or acknowledge the truth. I would say that we should be gentle and loving but not because we are worried about reputation but because God commands us to love our neighbor , second to loving God first. yet he warns us that we will be hated because of Him. We just need to be careful not to water down the truth to appease those who desire to continue down a road of destruction. I apologize I missed your last point. I agree. Well said.
Is this because the church keeps caving as seen with the progressives. Or is he predicting the counters the church will have in 7 years for the current thing?
The topic discussed in this video underlines the fact that "Progressive Christianity" is not even the slightest bit Christian. It is nothing but secular humanism wrapped in a false Christian wrapper to please atheists who like the church experience.
Something I noticed recently....I've been researching progressive "christianity" on youtube, watching a bunch of different channels. Suddenly, my suggested feed is getting filled with atheist and anti-theist channels. Not lost on me that UA-cam made the same connection I did.
The "abusive daddy" is an example of what the left does to form an argument. It's called a straw man. They do this because they cannot rationally, honestly defend their point of view.
@The bible approves Abortion I certainly feel for you, but this UA-cam channel is not a place of counseling where you can work out your psychological problems. I hope you are able to get the help you are seeking.
@Frankie Ortiz He isn't simply trolling. For lack of a better term, he's performing a temper tantrum before God. He lives on Christian UA-cam comment sections, and of course his screen name betrays his pre-occupation with God. He either is angry at God for something he perceives that God did to him, or he is clinging to a form of sin that he knows is wrong. I don't think responding to him here can help him, but I sincerely hope he seeks, and is able to get, the counseling he needs.
@The bible approves Abortion Yes, you need a lot of help, and prayer. And, I don't do ad hominem; you're engaging in a bit of psychological projection.
"That would make God worse than Hitler" One mention of that name and Christians will always cower in fear. What if God is worse than him? God is God and I am not qualified enough to counsel him. His ways are above my ways and his thoughts are above my thoughts. If God says do xyz, then that means we should do xyz. Also, didn't we have a sect of gnostic Christians during the early age where they differentiate God of the old testament from the Father in the New? There really is nothing new under the sun.
You are exactly right. Ecclesiastes 1:9 - There is nothing new under the sun. Isaiah 55:8-9 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the LORD. “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways.
Agreed. Our God is no respecter of persons & as all have sinned & fallen short of the glory of God, all are in need of justification by faith in Christ. This gift of God, salvation for all who humbly accept His sacrifice, could not be any more inclusive.
Some like Richard Rohr carry it many steps too far, start talking in circles about how all religions are equally valid, that's the "inclusivity". Two of Rohr's followers, Christopher and Phileena Heuertz, have multiple posts on their social media pages saying things like "I love when you kneel to pray in your church, I love when you bow to pray in your Mosque, I love when you pray in your..." and it goes on like this. Mrs. Heuertz has posted images in honor of Hindu gods. This is where it goes too far, and it is out there. But they claim to be Christians.
That is true, unless you're a reformed monergist. People who hold to monergistic theology believe God chooses whom He will save. End of story. The individual does not have the liberty to "choose Jesus". They instead believe that God has marked those He has "chosen" for salvation. If God hasn't marked an individual, it doesn't matter what they say or do, nor does revelation from the Word count. In their opinion, if God hasn't chosen you, you're damned to a godless eternity. I believe that is direct contradiction of bible teaching.
The whole problem with progressive Christianity is in their feeling of being “separated”. They only see the Christian faith in terms of “rules you have to follow”. Not a “relationship” with Jesus. Becoming a follower of him, denying yourself & therefore picking up your cross and following him. Therefore those Christians were under the bondage of the law, because their experience with the faith was just about rules. When we’re not under the law anymore, we’re under grace. We’re saved by grace through faith alone. I kind of blame the Deep South, Bible Belt Christianity, the fire & brimstone only denominations for not being the right example of what the gospel should be. There are those young people coming back into the faith, reading the word on their own and being astounded. Like, “wow I was only taught that God is mad, he’s angry and we’re all gonna burn”. Now I see that God is light, god is love, and god is life. God grieves, he’s patient, there’s joy in him, happiness, etc. Are we really so surprised that progressive Christianity took off when many of our predecessors didn’t give us the gospel in full? We have a tendency to chop up pieces of the gospel message and slam hard into those parts. The book of Romans gives you the full road to salvation. The message of the cross. Too many young people don’t want to be set apart. Somehow the enemy has convinced the youth that they’re missing out on the world. I regret that maybe some of those in these progressive churches had bad experiences with Christianity growing up and unfortunately pushed them into this problematic sect.
That pendulum swing really is hard to fight. As progressives gained traction more Conservative Christians reacted too far the other direction. That drove more people to be progressives.
I tell my kids I don’t want them to do the right thing for the wrong reason, I want them to love doing the right thing because it’s good. It’s when we obey out of love that we stop asking ‘how close to the line can I get without crossing it?’ Young people in particular need to stirred up to know the living God in a real and powerful way. If they’re hungry for the word they’ll seek truth and grow. And definitely church needs to be about more than entertainment. This is what I’m praying for in today’s church.
I kina skimmed your message but agree with your notion about the fire and brimstone teachings in the bible belt (i live in it). Some church have begun to seperate from such teachings like mine and have had the realizion of 2 key things past churches ignored. 1. Its a relationship, not a contract. 2. Theres Gods rules and then their mans rules. Heck, many if not most of those churches talked about lucifer being an arch angel who fell from heavan but... that never actually happened. Its not in the bible and lucifer the name doesnt even show up anywhere except maybe some off the wall bibles that just put it in. But the original text excludes it. Those past churches though were also filled with men that didnt know how to show love. It was a time where fathers worked and came home to a cooked meal and some days worked on the home but caring for and loving in the children was the mothers job. These were men some with hard hearts some with no knowledge of how to externally express love thus leading to such teaching their churches were known for.
As I became Christian I unconsciously embraced progessive views without knowing what that is. Now I can say: If GOD says there is a hell... there IS a hell! P.S.:I liked the shack, but not as a theological ressource. GOD bless you
Progressivism is, in simple terms, a way to mislead people by abusing their compassion. In every case, what they want you to do is less compassionate, but they trick you into feeling better about it. This rule is never wrong. If you ever begin to feel a lurch of compassion, stop, think, ask yourself who's trying to trick you. 90% of the time it's some subversive or dishonest cretin that wants to use you.
Take your copy of The Shack, and burn it. There is nothing in there that speaks to the truth of the Word. Just giving some advice, not condemning you. But it really is garbage. Stay strong!
@@chuckcribbs3398 I don't have a copy. I won't get my theology from a movie so there is no need for concern. Infact, thanks for yours. I know that it could become something very dangerous.
I completely understood the whole "torture vs suffering" because I've always tried to be careful and meaningful with my choice of words. I'm glad you guys caught. On the issue of deciding whether 'sin is bad' vs 'hell is bad' really conveys one's mental maturity towards God. Nonetheless, messages like these that can help one minister to others as well as assist progressives to analyze their intentions. Thank you for this video.
I used to "argue" with a lot of self proclaimed atheists on the internet that "used to be" Christians. But as they would go down their laundry list of complaints against Christianity, I noticed, OVER AND OVER AND OVER, that their complaint was not about Christianity. Virtually every single one of them was raised catholic, and their complaints were about specific aspects of Catholicism, not Christianity. Not that Catholicism is "bad". This is strictly an observation, and nothing more. Make of it what you will.
I've dealt with the same. And being raised in that faith somehow makes them "an expert" simply because they used to believe and went to church. As James says (and Paul somewhere), even the demons believe, and Satan himself. It's illogical to assume that just because you once were part of something you know all. The Bible is meant to be studied and we're meant to learn how to defend our faith. I really wonder if they bothered to get their questions answered, or left as soon as they had seen an objection that seemed reasonable to them. It's quite saddening to me, because once given in to that "reasonable objection" without questioning, it's so easy for ignorance to take over that particular heart, therefore ignoring any logical conclusion that goes against any of their objections.
@The bible approves Abortion science and metaphysics also give great explanation and evidence for a Creator. Science does not disprove God, but moreso God proves science
@The bible approves Abortion No, there are explanations man. And there are videos on the topic of God and science being heavily related. Vince Vitale has a forum on it I'm particularly fond of, but that's all up to you to search for the evidence. If I were a presuppositionalist I would not make it a necessity to search for such evidence and take it to heart.
Thanks Mike and Alisa. This has been a great series and has definitely solidified my faith in the Word of God and in Jesus as the way, the truth and the light.
We were in 2 progressive churches which were attractive to us, as they advertised as "conservative", but were not. Then subtly the legalism swept in, little by little. 1 eye opener was that when the members started saying "those other churches are legalist", I responded "All religious groups are legalist, but sometimes you have to look for it." Then God revealed the issues to me, slowly.
It is christianity,you guys are believing myths about progressive christianity and sure some of progressive christian aren't christian but most of them are christians.
The Apostle Paul should be very ashamed based on this. Thank you, Mike and Alisa, for doing this series. One skill believers in Jesus Christ have lost is the ability to defend the gospel (and every part of scripture. I learned more from Rush Limbaugh on how to defend a viewpoint (primarily in the form of asking the other person a question) than the Church ever taught me. What the two of you are doing here is of great value. May the Lord bless you and protect you.
"Pick your flavor of Christianity" comes a little too close to Bill Nye's perverse ice cream cartoon from his Netflix series. But more than that, it sounds like the wide and winding road that leads to destruction.
There's Christianity, and there's Christianity-based cults like the Church of Rome, the Eastern churches, the Latter-day Saint movement, Millerism, Ruckmanism, etc. But there's only one true Christianity.
@@johntrevett2944 They replace faith in Christ with acceptance of the KJV as the means of salvation. That makes them no longer Christians. Ruckman also taught that in certain cases salvation would need to be achieved by works, which is antithetical to scripture.
Rev 20:10 speaks of 'torment'. I actually think that many people confuse the word torment with torture, as there is a type of torment in the act of torture. When you consider the meaning of torment, it is actually something that can be self applied or self realised in ones mind or spirit without externally being applied, as apposed to torture of which is applied by an outside source & is generally considered physical violence with a vindictive, mental distress causing element. My faith rests in the knowledge that our Heavenly Father will only do what is perfectly just & right & because of this, His perfect love casts out any fear of eternal torment. Thanks again Mike & Alisa, this has been another insightful & valuable series.
Excellent point. Even regret can be a form of torment. I was tormented every night by every mistake I'd ever made until I became a Christian and Jesus took that load off of me.
Buuuut you wouldn’t have to avoid it if god hadn’t created it. I mean I guess I’m grateful god presents a workaround to his horrifying lapse in judgement, but I’d rather there just not be eternal punishment for something as menial as a lack of belief.
@Royal Blu ..Royal.. what kind of God creates such a place as Hell? such a God would be no better than a Satan, indeed, would be Satan! and guess what the worst sin is? not worshping this God! God hates those who do not worship Him! the followers of this Jealous God have always hated nonbelievers, nonworshpers.. this is why there has never been peace thru-out history with people of faith.. God hates nonworshipers, and so do the believers of this God! what chance peace with such people? nonwhatsoever! we know this to be Fact, because of the history of Judaism, Christianity and Islam.. all of these faiths hate those not of the faith, it was always that way, and still is so even today!.. see Exodus 32;26-28, 'Moses stood in the gate of the camp and said, 'Who is on the LORD'S side? take swords, and kill the nonbelievers!'.. Moses Jealous God approves of the murder of nonbelievers! what kind of God is this?
@@GARYWERSLEY It was always so with human beings. It has nothing to do with faiths. Human beings hate the out group. It is Christs saying love your enemy that even made your judgement possible to take seriously, which it absolutely should. Now I agree that God sounds horrible in the standard modern conception on Hell, which has been changing over the centuries mind you. The only sin is not loving God and everyone you meet, which are the same thing. Heaven is here now, inside you. The Kingdom of heaven is that place of peace you are rewarded with for living in love with all creation. Hell is the absence of that peace. It is simply the nature of the kingdom that it must be entered willingly. It is not about being worthy, but about choosing it, after God has made it possible for us to do so. It is the choosing it that makes it what it is. It is in the kingdom you can enjoy the thought of having helped someone, fasted, etc., which can only be had by not doing those things for external reasons, but only for God in your heart. Modern Christians tend to be focused on the future and where they are going after death, thinking heaven is some future place. But heaven is where all immaterial (for lack of a better word) exists always, and the kingdom is that place in heaven where one is protected from judgement, hate, death, etc, and can enjoy the fruits of the Spirit where it manifests in life. The ressurection in the future is a different matter, and upon that event one will continue to live in the kingdom or outside it. The question of hell is a question of whether it is possible to become such a person as would never be able to accept forgiveness or give it to ones worst enemies, and thus never choose the kingdom. Regardless of this everyone will live for ever. Those in the kingdom will all live together, and everyone else will wail gnash their teeth for their moral indignation, hopefully not for ever.
@@MortenBendiksen ..Morten.. Jesus said, love your enemies, but only if they believe in Me! if they do not, then you must hate them! Hate them with a passion! Jesus had about as much hatred as he had love.. he demonstrates this in his nasty angry diatribes against Pharisee's and Sadducee's.. he was very insulting to them, and in fact, we can probly blame Jesus for all anti semitism of Christianity.. in fact, we can probly blame Paul for that as well.. historically, Christians have hated Jews and punished them for being Jews.. we can thank Jesus for that! and you say that human beings hate the out group? the Bible tells us that there was never any faith or religion more hateful than ancient Judaism.. this is why Paul was able to say that in his day, 'Jews were persecutors and contrary to all men!' 1Thes.2:15.. .. we must ask the question, what kind of God tells his followers that they must hate and despise those who do not share their faith? what kind of God says, 'Make no covenant with nonbelievers, separate yourselves from them, do not eat with them, keep your children away from them!' what? where is the LOVE? according to Jesus and the Bible, Hell was created for those who do not believe in Moses Jealous God, those who did not worship.. and Hell, a place of Eternal Torment.. A Lake Fire, where the flame is never quenched, where the Fiery Worm dieth not..' we must ask, what is this Lake Of Fire? what is the Fiery Worm? what kind of God would create such a place? certainly not a God Of Love! another question, what kind of God Demands worship, else he will punish those who do not worship? such a God would surely be no better than a Satan! ...
The father of the prodigal son ran to him when he was returning home. The father in the story didn't go out to the son while he was in the middle of his riotous living nor when he feigned to eat the husks that were fed to the pigs. It was when the son had a repentant heart with pure intent. The father respected his son's agency so much that he let him squander all of his inheritance. But all the while, the father was waiting, hoping that his child could come back. God never excuses our sins nor will he swoop in and stop us if we want to turn from Him, but He is always right there when we repent.
My worship pastor does not want me (one of the music leaders) to choose songs written by white males. Wants me to choose artists of color instead...Made my jaw drop. I'm like, who cares about their skin color? Whats the song about, what's the theology of the song, how does it fit with the sermon etc?
Stay away from any church that causes division. The songs are about worship and giving glory to God, not about promoting one skin colour above another. The pastor at your church is treading a dangerous ungodly path.
Mike, Thank u SO much for your work! I appreciate your work in beautifully ( and with receipts) articulating what so many of us deeply know, but dont always have words for. It is easy to be taken off guard and to not know what to say when the moment comes. These talks help is so much in being prepared in understanding where others are coming from and how to respond to their challenges.
I have a friend who unfriended me on Facebook as he was a progressive. They only accept what appeals to them. In him I saw this. They literally pick and choose what to believe. He was À la cart when it came to scripture. If it did not line up with their view it was flowed passages.
So their belief in a nutshell is: Sin doesn't matter. Everyone is going to heaven no matter what they believe, no matter if they accept Jesus or not. So what's the point of being a Christian? What's the point of worshiping or trying to follow the teachings of Jesus if we're all going to heaven regardless?
I can see the inclusion argument in that God has extended an open invitation to everybody, but it's up to each person to choose Him and if they don't, they are excluded.
@AntiCap Atheist Your comment was thought-provoking, so thank you for leaving it as a reply. I'd say one major difference between your example and the idea of God giving people a choice to be included is the people on a date weren't created by the other person. God created us and wants to fellowship with us, but in giving us free will, He won't force us to stay. That would be to torture to make someone endure being in a place they didn't choose for themselves. Two people going on a date is not an equal comparison because one did not create the other. They are interacting, sure, but their origins, motives for interacting, and responsibilities are quite different.
Love yer 4 steps, Mike! These people have no shame. Here's a thought: it used to be that the Church TOOK A STAND on Doctrine, and people either did, or didn't, conform to the church. But now, people dont want anything to be a sin and constantly try to make the church conform to "them".
I would love if you took this format and go through one of the multiple "contradictions in the bible" lists and explain how they are not. Except maybe this time, not have an intro each video for later playlists :)
I think the intro is necessary because someone may randomly come across this video and not know there’s many more like it and that it comes from a longer conversation. It may be monotonous for us as regular subscribers but a great addition for the video as a whole! :)
Thank you for such clear Biblical content!! I really appreciate you taking the time to wade through all these aspects of progressive Christianity. I think both of you must be operating in the power of the Holy Spirit because you have beautiful humble attitudes and you don't seem to become exhausted. He gives you strength. I'm praying for that! And I'm praying for you both as well. Thanks!
Thank you so much for your stripped down biblical commonsense approach to the truth of God’s word! You definitely are not frustrating the Grace of salvation and that's a beautiful thing.
Omg I'm so glad you guys are doing this series. I'm digusted how people are seriously misinterpreting and twisting scriptures. This is guy is literally bringing ppl to hell in droves
The difference between grounding a child and being sent to Hell, is that eventually the grounding will be over. Hell is literally forever. It is suffering until the end of the universe, and then you continue suffering.
Right? Calling a painful checkup at the dentist, or getting a parking ticket torture then saying that's the same as hell being a place of torture, completely dismisses the eternal aspect of hell. It looks like a major strawman fallacy to me. Thank you for pointing this out in your comment.
Your pointing to a difference in quantity (a week vs forever) but not a difference in quality (not being able to see friends vs not being able to see God for example). Mike's point was that if "punishment is torture" as a axiom is true, then something as benign as grounding, since it is punishment, is also torture. He was not equating them but rather using them to to show that the underlying assumption is false.
@@nicholemoore2448 A strawman is misrepresenting what others believe. If make claimed that progressive view grounding as torture, that would be a strawman, What he was doing is saying if this form of punishment is torture, why not this other punishment. I am going to be very pedantic here.... but that is called a false equivalence. But I will also defend Mike's argument here. I have heard of people asking their new born baby for consent to cover it with a blanket. Seriously, someone actually did that. Because they took the principle of never violate someone else's consent and followed it all the way as if it was a virtue. And if you think extremes are the issue here, consider lying. Many have died because they were not willing to lie, yet we view them as heroic and the parents mentioned earlier as idiots. So I can't fault Mike as I think it is actually logically consistent to jump from hell to grounding. If "punishment is torture", then grounding is just less severe limited torture, but still torture.
Wow! I am so very blessed by your teaching and the way that you use the Bible alongside some very strong reasoning. I am just recently a blind man, and I have been looking for something like this on the Internet for a long time. Would love to have a chat with you sometime! Bless you!
Well said family 👏 I would also suggest that if they think that Jesus is part of the deal if you like it or not... Wouldn't that fall under eternal torture for the one who does not want Jesus or for some reason hates him?
This was a great series! Would love to see you partner up with Steven Bancarz (Reasons for Jesus) to do more on progressive/New Age and Christianity. 💜
1Corinthians 13 says ".....Love does not rejoice with unrighteousness, but rejoices in the truth......" We have in many ways warped the Biblical definition of love. When truth is redefined as hate the water gets muddy really fast. Thank you for your thoughtful and careful discussion.
"Causing suffering isn't torture if it serves a greater purpose." That's why when god sends you to hell, there's a phase 2 where you recieve the benefits of the suffering, oh, nvm, it's just endless revenge p0rn.
I noticed on the issue of Hell that neither Mike or Alisa defined what they think Hell is. Without knowing how they define Hell, there's no way to determine whether Hell would qualify as torture. I also disagree with the idea that torture is a moral judgment. Torture is the act of intentionally inflicting severe pain on a person. Dentists typically aren't trying to cause their patients pain, so I don't think that analogy works. A prison guard beating an inmate would be a better analogy. Would a reasonable person consider a guard beating an inmate to be torture? Without knowing how Mike and Alisa define Hell, I can't make a judgment about their view, but I can make a judgment about the general view of Hell, which is typically eternal punishment in the land of fire and brimstone. If that is Hell and anyone who sins and doesn't repent goes there, regardless of the nature of their sins, then Hell would fit the definition of torture. It's severe pain intentionally (and perpetually) inflicted on a person as punishment from God. I think the issue here is that most people find torture to be wrong and evil, so applying this concept to anything God does creates conundrum for those who view God as moral and just. God is good, therefore he can't do evil things, and since torture is evil, what he does (punishing people in Hell) can't be torture.
Hosea 4:6 King James Version 6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
That is the book I am back to restudy on. Nice. Truth is forward and done. Deception has to cycle back and reword, in that order to deny. God offers bread, not a buffet.
As an unregenerate sinner, I remember the weight of God's law, and how it tormented me. Imagine how great that is in eternity, with no reprieve, for the unrepentant. The unregenerate hate God's law. To the believer, God's law and gospel are precious.
I suppose I view things regarding our salvation in a progressive way more so than conservative. Not because it “suits me” better, but because that’s my interpretation. I don’t hate conservative Christians, I completely understand your perspectives. I listen to and read your beliefs and commentary. (I grew up Southern Baptist btw.). I just choose not to argue or “debate” about it anymore. I know you probably think I’m damned because of it, but I truly do not believe I will be.
I think the most charitable case this claim has is the notion of being saved thru general revelation, without explicit knowledge of Christ. They are saved by Christ, just not as explicitly as someone who has the full knowledge of him (ie Abraham, for example). In that sense, "all who are saved are saved by christ whether you like it or not", but not in a all-inclusive universalist sense
I think it's okay to admit that based on the scope of my understanding, I don't personally like the idea of hell and find it difficult to reconcile, but I also trust in God's perfect judgement. I have confidence that whatever I don't understand now will be made clear upon the second coming, when every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is lord and all things will be made known. Our comprehension of God's judgement will only be as complete as the limitations of a human mind will allow until the day when all things are made new.
Agreed! People deluding themselves is exactly what we are hearing more and more. Why is that? I believe it is one of two issues. 1) For some (mainly the social justice warriors), the Gospel no longer has power for individuals to change. They are not content to lovingly, without compromise, tell people - that more of Jesus is the answer. Know and love Jesus. Jesus is the Word of Life! Jesus through sanctification will change you, for all of your life. 2) For the rest? They tell us “We MUST agree with the sin and just forget that we are ALL in need of a Savior.” My answer to both.... Ask the Holy Spirit (not your friends or your college professor or a SJW pastor) for guidance and be a Berean and search the Scriptures
Family can I ask you to pray for my friend Cassie? She is recently divorced (1 year ago). She is dating a man who attends a progressive "church". My wife is good friends with her. My wife and I are solid in the faith but are very concerned this new man will lead our friend to turn to a false gospel. This series is timely. Thank you. **Update** The relationship ended. Praying my friend will find God is a fuller way during this time. And that she will embrace the faith handed down once for all time. In Christ. -Luke
@@daddyeagen The guy broke it off with my friend. Praying she finds a solid foundation in Christ and that if it's His will she finds a godly man someday.
The prodigal son came to his senses and acknowledged that he had sinned and came back to the father (confessing and repenting). That's the key that folks miss.
When I became an atheist I had already left my conservative Christianity and been a progressive Christian for a decade or more. The Christianity I now rail against is primarily the conservative beliefs I held years ago. To an extent I do 'over-simplify' those beliefs in the way you describe but there's a good reason for that. I now realise that I tied myself in knots in order to justify and rationalise the difficult bits, the passages and tenets that to the outsider make God look like a moral monster but to the initiated are explained away by God's 'mystery', God's 'holiness' or even some twisted idea of God's love. The torture example you gave is a perfect illustration of this. You said that the dentist isn't torturing you because there's a purpose to it - some positive aim. But we still call it torture when enemy combatants are subjected to waterboarding or worse in order to make them give information that would save lives. The question is not whether there's a reason for it. What good does it do to allow or impose eternal suffering and torture? It does no good at all. It's a moral travesty. If any human were to do this they would be taken to the Hague and put on trial. The things that I rationalised away as a conservative Christian are horrific. You're doing the same and it has dire consequences regarding how you view others. If you can justify eternal torture you can justify anything.
God made the law and set the consequences. Of course as a human I'm going to let my emotions try to reject God's truth. Doesn't make the Bible's statements on the wages of sin subject to my interpretation :shrug:
@@festushaggen2563 I have my own personal testimony and those of my friends and family who I've been to church with, prayed with, studied the Bible with...
I love the story of the prodigal son (I actually prefer to call it the story of the prodigal God) because it gives us a very small glimpse of how much the Father loves us and to what ends He will go to restore us to relationship with Himself. The extent of His love for us is beyond our imagination, beyond our wildest dreams! But to use the elder son in the parable of the prodigal as an argument for universalism seems odd since the elder son is OUTSIDE the celebration at the end of the story.
Thank you for this. My only comment would be that God doesn't send anyone to hell. We're all destined for hell because of our sin. God provides a way of rescue (the only way) through the atoning sacrifice of Christ on the cross. His mercy and grace provides a way of rescue. Apart from Christ's atoning work on the cross we have no hope. What a loving and kind Father that He provides a way of rescue at all. It's pretty arrogant that we would demand He provide multiple ways to avoid the judgment we all deserve. What more could He do to set us free? He did everything possible. We just need to accept what He did and repent. It's as simple as that.
Progressive Christianity appears to be the epitome of what I call ‘Bumper-Sticker Theology”. People that make life choices, craft a theology, or derive their world view from a clever sounding meme or quip are utter fools.
““Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.” Matthew 7:13-14 ESV
You guys are both great! I appreciate your in depth and careful examination of scripture!👍 I have progressive theological friends and I hope and pray they see the lies and turn back to the truth of what the Bible really says! Thanks and God bless!
this mike guy is wisdom in a nutshell. I like how you explain your answers, and you are slow to anger, like thats something i struggle with, and i need to drive myself to be more like you, and most of all like Christ.
Its sorta like what was said. All people are saved through Christ. Even Job who declared "my redeemer lives". Its inclusive for all who are saved from the beginning. It certainly excludes those who reject him.
@@bryguy8203 Very true, but what about those who were geographically separated from the region of the OT OG's. I kind of view it as taking the stance "this place is messed up but God will eventually fix it".
@@malvokaquila6768 Well as we know Jesus died for the sin of the world and is the only way to Heaven, all the way back to "Righteous Abel." Romans 2 really helped me in that it states God will Judge according to the light of Himself he gives to each man, no more and no less. The more light the more we are responsible for. The natural man has nature and conscience(Romans 2), The Jews had the Law, we have the Gospel and are accountable for more for we have the greatest light and knowledge of God of all, and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Hope not too much info here, I was blessed when I learned this awhile back. Take Care, B.
The only "stream" that leads to the Father's house is the crimson red stream spilled out by the body of Christ on the cross for our sins. Jesus said if we don't believe we will die in our sins. Know the Word and know the Word of God. Thank you, Mike and Alisa exposing the lies so people can find Jesus and salvation.
The so called “gospel” quoted near the end of this video makes me sick. Those lead astray by this false teaching have my pity. Yes, we have a just God, and this they will heartily know soon enough: Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, know comes to the Father except through him.
The conservative view of hell most certainly is torture. It has traditionally been presented this way _explicitly_ in art and proselytizing by many denominations. A parking ticket is a limited punishment for a limited and specific transgression. Hell is an unlimited punishment for a limited transgression, & one that conservative Christians usually grant is not even specific to the individual but is general to all mankind (“sinful nature”, “original sin”, etc.) Worse, the whole premise of Christianity is that hell is not even really punishment for sins but merely for not worshiping Jesus. After all, conservative Christian teaching usually explicitly allows that if you worship Jesus & ask for forgiveness, your actual specific sins will be forgiven & _never_ punished. So hell is “punishment” only for _non-belief._ It is a corrupt bargain of an unsophisticated but manipulative people.
In discussing hell, Winger engages in a false-dichotomy. He compares hell to a parent punishing a child or a parking ticket in order to defend hell as being a just judgement. These are categorically different from hell because these are temporary states after the punishment the child is reconciled to the parent after the parking ticket is paid the motorist is reconciled to the criminal justice system. In Winger's understanding of hell, the proper parenting analogy is disownment. B/c the sinner is forever driven from the presence of YHWH without recourse. Similarly the proper legal analogy would be the death penalty b/c once the punishment of death is exacted it is irrevocable.
It's interesting how language can be understood. Like, hearing this and thinking i could agree but i don't know, but then a bit later "ohh, THAT'S how they meant "inclusive/exclusive". I thought about the passage in context of the book or somehting. I'm glad i have the possibility to learn K Greek and Hebrew o.O Maaaybe it'll help clearing my own misunderstandings.
Just putting a thought out there, but l think what's often missesd is that there's a difference between judgement and discipline. Keep up the good fight all.x
Progressive Christianity is a PART of the great apostasy to come in the end of days. But in reality progressive christianity isn't christianity at all, there is ONE God, and he is the Lord, the same yesterday, today, and forever. His word does not change for us, we ought to change for Him.
🤯🤯🤯🤯 English is not even my first language.. but how Progressive “christians” can’t or don’t want to read obvious plain English in the Bible is crazy. Hell is what we all deserve, I deserve it, you deserve it, there is evil in our nature. That’s why Jesus went to the cross and is my Saviour.
Individualism vs. Collectivism is the philosophical dilemma this country is facing. Who will you bend your knee to, God or government ? There is a reason why when the Bill Of Rights was penned that it acknowledged that these things are inalienable, because if these rights are from God they are cemented and fixed. If these rights are given to you by man and government, these rights are not "Rights" but only allowances. And if a man allows you, he may also revoke these allowances.
Hi I’m a progressive Christian! 💕 I think the disconnect on this final point is how it’s being understood? “Everyone is in” is essentially a message that a relationship with God is available to everyone. Everyone was made in the image of God & everyone has had God breathe into them. There’s no “chosen race” (I say that literally because The Bible refers to us all as a chosen race. But it’s not like a literal tribe/ race/ nationality), but rather a collective of people who have become aware of the Holy Spirit which is the spirit of Christ. That doesn’t necessarily mean everyone is going to heaven. What is salvific for progressive Christians is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Because it’s the only unforgivable sin. You can’t blaspheme Agape Love which is at the core of the Holy Spirit, or the grace, deliverance, healing or acceptance that comes from it. Yes, that will drag you into the pit of hell. Anyone who has read the Bible should know this. Jesus said you can blaspheme The Father and even Jesus... but if you blaspheme the Holy Spirit you have rejected the very thing that creates that forgiveness. This is a CRITICAL part of salvific issues that is OFTEN overlooked & not addressed. And IF you’re watching a Christian shatter a person rather than heal a person & call it Godly... it might be met with some “spice & fervor” from a progressive Christian. Not gonna lie. 😂 As far as the fact that we don’t all have to agree. Even within conservative Christianity there’s 1000 flavors. Mike, you just did a video about 6 ways to interpret Revelation. 😂 Everyone just needs to workout their own salvation. The other thing is that... this ENTIRE series has been “my View is righteous” against progressive Christianity 😂... without a progressive Christian present to correct you on your inaccurate interpretation of these ideas & the biblical theology behind them. I think you see that kind of push back on conservative Christians because of the things people say to us. People have gathered together to attack us all year 😂😂 I’ve had people literally say “God wouldn’t” & “F*** off” in the same comment to me BECAUSE I’m a progressive Christian. Represent God well, guys! Fortunately, I’m well rooted in my faith. But if I were more flimsy in my faith? A lot of conservative Christians would have made me atheist within the past year. Y’all wouldn’t have made a drop of fruit. Not because they didn’t tell me what I wanted to hear, but because they had no CLUE what Love was & failed every checkbox from 1 Corinth 13:1-13. We’re all called to correct one another. But to do so without rivalry, contention, sectarianism, malice or intimidation. Be blessed. 🙂
As an evangelical Christian I really appreciate your perspective from the other side. You make a good point that not all progressive Christians would agree but it seems to me that Mike was understanding the this particular writer's ideas pretty well? The article he was responding to seemed too direct and bluntly put to misinterpret very much. It does seem like there is a spectrum in the church however and while the writer seems to be coming from the absolute extreme many on the spectrum who call themselves progressive would be closer to the evangelical side.
@@cmcapps1963 Thanks for your considerate dialogue. I would say that most progressives come from a more traditional background, but many of our stances may make us more progressive than evangelical. I think there's 2 camps for the most part (from what I see.) People who became progressives because they read MORE of the Bible. And then people who became progressives because the didn't at all. lol. I will say a lot of the topics that Mike read weren't foreign concepts to me. But a lot of the way interpreted these concepts were very, very off. And not really what is meant by those statements at all. I really wish the church would "reach across the aisle" so to speak and have more conversations & 2-way dialogues. At the end of the day, we're all just Christians. Sectarianism isn't of God. But we have a responsibility as a body to listen to what God is showing one another & to accept that we all have PART. When we only listen to those who believe like we do? ... We might as well not be a Body anymore. We miss the whole point.
Please make a video on: "only by taking the mark of the beast you would be damned or is It necessary to worship the image/beast? Please answer with Bible verses. And also: could the mark be a vaccine?
It is written that the mark of the beast will grant you access to buying and selling stuff. I assume it is physical or other ways it needs to be checked if you have it. In the book of revelations the mark of the beast is presented together with verses about worshipping the beast or the image. Satan wants to be like God and so he will want worshippers. Those I know well have suggested its about swearing allegiance and so it will be a choice between God or Satan. However I don't know if it will look so black and white, one thing for sure, if you have the Holy Spirit you will never accidently take the mark. Jesus will not allow it. If you are interested we can talk about it? Not that I know much, but I could be a wall for you to throw a few thoughts and questions up against? It is up to you :) God bless you friend!
@@rebekaalittlesheep9289 I studied the texts in Rev specially 14:11 and 20:4 and Its not clear, for me, that a mark could be placed in advance for, further, asked to praise the image. One thing is for shure the image will kill the elect, for the rest of the entire Worls will adore It.
I think what people seem to forget is that the world has gotten to a stage where you could have a specific view and you can go online and find so much that will be in support of what you believe and at the same time find the same amount that would be against your views. I am not a progressive Christian but I wouldn’t say I am fully conservative either by virtue of the fact that I’m a working independent woman. If I look in the Bible I would find a ton of scriptures against my lifestyle but you as a conservative would say “that’s acceptable” but women are deemed less then men in the Bible, they were even offered up sacrificially to be abused to prevent men from committing things like homosexuality, yet I lead teams where men report to me. In the context of biblical times I would not be allowed to do that. For me it’s about your convictions and being at peace with the consequences of your actions. Having said that it is still a very good discussion and I am always keen to hear other views.
If you want the playlist but the link isn’t working in the description, try this one. ua-cam.com/play/PLZ3iRMLYFlHstu7p_vncGknpVhWp9uxc1.html
I’m not sure why you spend so much time pointing out the lies of these money grabbing “so called progressive churches” why not spend time trying to bring people to Jesus, instead of spending all you time on this garbage.
Thank you for your work Mike, it's so important because you speak with love and not rancor or sarcasm as other channels do and with which I'm really uncomfortable. This work is vital as there are millions of people resting on false doctrines that will not bring salvation, I was one and frankly the stuff that's thrown at you 35 yrs later is far more subtle and carnal than that which I had to contend with. My guess is that it's an ongoing fulfillment of Revelations and a human spirit that will brook no authority nor bear any bridle - only the blinkers seem to be acceptable.
@@thebibletrain8297 because many people are falling for this kind of no one is wrong mentality, especially college age kids. It may not be your particular type of ministry but I think Mike did well to shed light on the thinking of this age and give those of us who don't experience it on a regular basis, a glimpse into what is going on within the church.
@dread nes Mike has answered some of those questions in your first paragraph in other videos and I think the answers would actually surprise you. The gospel does mean good news. We can't avoid the fact, however, that Christ preached more about hell, than he did heaven.
As far as your questions go, a survey of the scripture gives us a pretty sound Idea that those who never heard the gospel, which is becoming fewer in this age due to its accessibility, still make moral choices on a regular basis and all of us have a conscience inside that we can either listen to or sear. Listening to Mikes teaching on this however was helpful for me and you may get something out of it as well. The prophets and people before Christ operated under the promise of God that a messiah would come. It is by grace you are saved, through faith. Abraham's faith was counted to him as righteousness.. The same for those who lived before Christ. If your faith is in God, you will not be put to shame.
Christ would not have preached on the lake of fire so much if it wasn't reality. The Lazarus story gives insight that the way hell is described is accurate. To reject Christ is to reject the salvation he offers us. The wages of sin is death, but there is a second death and the scripture says:
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. Rev.. 20:14
The 10 commandments were given by a loving God to get us to see our sin, then Christ came and further brought it to our eyes in the sermon on the mount. A loving God came in the flesh and died on the cross, to rise again so that we would believe and could be forgiven.
@The bible approves Abortion Your youtube name says everything about your reasoning. It is entirely conceived through emotion, self deception, and lack of knowledge of what The Bible actually says. If you understood the word the Lord gave you would understand that yes, we do have to be told to honor our father and mother because it establishes a condition of reverence and submitting to those in authority over us such as God. The first four commandments are for us to see that God is a moral standard that we don't come anywhere close to meeting and the fleshing out of that is that he lovingly works through our man made messes, such as slavery, progressively leading us out of our sinful nature to follow him. The sabbath was so that man took time to rest and remember the gifts God has given. The moral laws of the commandments teach us how to love our fellow man/woman. Christ said all of the Law is fulfilled in 2 commands however. Love the Lord with all your heart, soul, mind and strength: and love your neighbor as you love yourself. Its a wake up call to a people who are so self absorbed they seek to serve their self above the interest of others. You mistake Gods working through sinful man, and attribute the sins to God himself. We are not a product of our environment either. Maybe a short period of time we live in relation to our environment but as conscious beings we choose how we respond to our environment which is what makes us different from an animal. If I grow up with an abusive father, I choose to accept that life of abuse or leave it. If I loose my father at a young age, as I did, I can either blame my environment for my obstacles or change my circumstances. The fact that Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, and any other group or religion come to Christ shows that we are not permanently rooted to our environment. Being angry at a God you don't take the time to understand doesn't change whether his claims are true or false.
*Christ OVER culture* ✝️>🌎
PRAISE THE LORD GLORY TO GOD
Until the end!
Yet people use culture to interpret christ
Fard 2700 IQ response damn
@@austinlincoln3414 people that say christ over culture still uses culture. this is almost an impossible task
Amen!
The guy conveniently leaves out an important element in his interpretation of the prodigal son story; the son admits that he had sinned before his father and God. He had acted foolishly - he had been WRONG! Yes, your Father will see you coming and joyously welcome you home, but he won't see you unless you first repent and then turn around.
Exactly. The writer of that post ignores one of the most important parts: the prodigal son CHOSE to return. When the father saw that choice he ran to meet him. He didn't run out to get him when he was partying, or even when he was living in filth and eating with pigs. The son was never forced to return.
But what prompts the son’s return home? His memories of his Father’s love. If he didn’t know that home would be better than a pig pen, he wouldn’t have returned. Likewise, we are driven to repentance after hearing the Word. “We love because he first loved us.”
By your own standards you are not saved.
You absolutely have not repented of all your sins either.
Not even close to
Trying doesn't count.
Jonah 3:10 calls turning from sins "works".
Repentance of sins is a lifetime of works and has never saved anyone or contributed in any way to salvation.
If repentance of sins helps save you in any way then it had better be perfect repentance.
God's standard is absolute perfection. Not even one sin is allowed to be in Heaven.
The book of James says that if you follow the whole law and offend in one point you are guilty of all.
Oops.
So much for your helping out with salvation.
God grants repentance unto the acknowledgement of the truth.
The only repentance that saves is realizing that you are a sinner deserving of God's just punishment in Hell and turn (repent) from whatever you trusted in before to trusting in the person and finished work of Christ " alone " for salvation.
How can you possibly trust Christ alone for salvation when you are also trusting in your performance (repenting of sins)?
You absolutely can't.
Our good works, repenting of sins, and obedience, are solely for rewards in Heaven or a lack thereof and have absolutely nothing to do with salvation at all.
The only reason anyone will ever be in Heaven is solely by the perfect life, shed blood, death, burial, and resurrection, of Jesus Christ alone.
Anything added or subtracted from this is another gospel.
This is truth brother! This is why Paul writes in Ephesians 2:8-10. Saved by grace for good works, not by good works! And even if we fall away from the works he has set out before us, His grace is STILL sufficient!
@@colonalklink14I am confused, are you saying we do not need to repent. Because repentance is works based.
Being completely separated from gods love sounds like torture to me. Stay strong fellow Christians!
John 12:39 - "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
From what I have seen of atheists, it scares me to become one. Just toxic and unpleasant.
@@Zulonix For the people that couldn't find it it's John 12:32 apparently 🙂
This is a BIG one!!!
We need to see God as *revealed in the Bible*, not as we believe him in our minds, or in our Christian culture. 😊🙏👆🏼🔥
Yes sir. That would be called idolatry.
True, that's the only way we should Revered and worship God.
Yes, because we are told to renew our minds, by the washing of the words of Jesus...and 'let this mind be in you, that was in Christ Jesus'
Which Bible? I'm reading the Tanakh right now, and it's a bit different from the KJV.
Which Bible? There are at least 6 different editions!
We have to understand that the progressive Christian movement was birthed out of the belief that conservative Christians aren’t loving, and are identified by what they are against instead of what they are for. Progressives in my opinion made an over correction saying that “we love and accept everyone even if u don’t believe in the Christian god”. This should be an eye opener for everyone in the church. We need to be more loving( and willing to show our love for people) and accepting without compromising the gospel and our beliefs about god in general. Keep up the good work mike! :)
They don't want to be a light that pays a price for shedding it. They take a high moral high ground and a unquestionable image, like our represenetives.
In my experience because the gospel can not be compromised, and won’t be..this is why they say we are unloving
And in that...too bad
Yes, I agree.
Yup this is correct. The problem is that conservatives have been in loving and too judgemental. But progressives think changing the truth is loving but that not true at all.
I would agree with you to an extent. You bring up great points. However from what I found when speaking to those who oppose Christianity and call it judgmental is their opposition to an uncomfortable truth that exposes our sin. The definition of sin so to speak. You can speak and treat an individual with the most “ lovey feeling good” actions while sharing the truth and it would continue being deemed as unloving. The truth will seem unloving to those who love their sin. It guts us in our pride and forces us to either reject or acknowledge the truth. I would say that we should be gentle and loving but not because we are worried about reputation but because God commands us to love our neighbor , second to loving God first. yet he warns us that we will be hated because of Him. We just need to be careful not to water down the truth to appease those who desire to continue down a road of destruction. I apologize I missed your last point. I agree. Well said.
“Tell me what the world is saying today, and I’ll tell you what the church will be saying in seven years.”- Francis Shaeffer
Exactly! The church adapts to the world or it dies.
@Jonathan Neufeld I was agreeing with the original comment.
God bless the late, great Dr. Francis A. Schaeffer who got me into Christian Apologetics!
Is this because the church keeps caving as seen with the progressives. Or is he predicting the counters the church will have in 7 years for the current thing?
The topic discussed in this video underlines the fact that "Progressive Christianity" is not even the slightest bit Christian. It is nothing but secular humanism wrapped in a false Christian wrapper to please atheists who like the church experience.
@The bible approves Abortion Repent while you still can! A soul is a terrible thing to waste...
@The bible approves Abortion you're so self deceived. Turn to Jesus!
@The bible approves Abortion You're just self deceived. I'll pray for you to repent! You really need Jesus
@The bible approves Abortion 😂😂😂 narcigesis.
Why is that? Because you hate gays? Blacks? Which is it? Don't like abortions? Don't get one.
I’ll say “everything” and then I’ll watch.
Grandmaster watches Mike winger?
@@chriskwak118 He’s my GUY!! 😂
Gloria a Dios
@@chriskwak118 SIMON!! 🙌
Love the videos man😂 God bless you
Something I noticed recently....I've been researching progressive "christianity" on youtube, watching a bunch of different channels. Suddenly, my suggested feed is getting filled with atheist and anti-theist channels. Not lost on me that UA-cam made the same connection I did.
Thank you Mike, for commenting on God as an 'abusive daddy'. My son who is an atheist brings up this a lot and I was never sure how to respond to him
The "abusive daddy" is an example of what the left does to form an argument. It's called a straw man. They do this because they cannot rationally, honestly defend their point of view.
@The bible approves Abortion I certainly feel for you, but this UA-cam channel is not a place of counseling where you can work out your psychological problems. I hope you are able to get the help you are seeking.
@Frankie Ortiz He isn't simply trolling. For lack of a better term, he's performing a temper tantrum before God. He lives on Christian UA-cam comment sections, and of course his screen name betrays his pre-occupation with God. He either is angry at God for something he perceives that God did to him, or he is clinging to a form of sin that he knows is wrong. I don't think responding to him here can help him, but I sincerely hope he seeks, and is able to get, the counseling he needs.
@The bible approves Abortion Yes, you need a lot of help, and prayer. And, I don't do ad hominem; you're engaging in a bit of psychological projection.
@Frankie OrtizThere's no need for anger at the person. He is crying for help.
"That would make God worse than Hitler" One mention of that name and Christians will always cower in fear. What if God is worse than him? God is God and I am not qualified enough to counsel him. His ways are above my ways and his thoughts are above my thoughts. If God says do xyz, then that means we should do xyz. Also, didn't we have a sect of gnostic Christians during the early age where they differentiate God of the old testament from the Father in the New? There really is nothing new under the sun.
Godwin's Law 😂 it's got God right in the name, therefore it must be valid! (j/k)
You are exactly right. Ecclesiastes 1:9 - There is nothing new under the sun. Isaiah 55:8-9 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the LORD. “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways.
The way I have heard it, Jesus statement is inclusive in the sense that everyone is welcome to choose Him.
Agreed. Our God is no respecter of persons & as all have sinned & fallen short of the glory of God, all are in need of justification by faith in Christ. This gift of God, salvation for all who humbly accept His sacrifice, could not be any more inclusive.
Some like Richard Rohr carry it many steps too far, start talking in circles about how all religions are equally valid, that's the "inclusivity". Two of Rohr's followers, Christopher and Phileena Heuertz, have multiple posts on their social media pages saying things like "I love when you kneel to pray in your church, I love when you bow to pray in your Mosque, I love when you pray in your..." and it goes on like this. Mrs. Heuertz has posted images in honor of Hindu gods. This is where it goes too far, and it is out there. But they claim to be Christians.
That is true, unless you're a reformed monergist. People who hold to monergistic theology believe God chooses whom He will save. End of story. The individual does not have the liberty to "choose Jesus". They instead believe that God has marked those He has "chosen" for salvation. If God hasn't marked an individual, it doesn't matter what they say or do, nor does revelation from the Word count. In their opinion, if God hasn't chosen you, you're damned to a godless eternity. I believe that is direct contradiction of bible teaching.
Doesn't the Bible say the consequences of sin is death?
Yes
Yes
Romans 6.23a
Wages.
That's crul . That's why i left christianity
The whole problem with progressive Christianity is in their feeling of being “separated”. They only see the Christian faith in terms of “rules you have to follow”. Not a “relationship” with Jesus. Becoming a follower of him, denying yourself & therefore picking up your cross and following him. Therefore those Christians were under the bondage of the law, because their experience with the faith was just about rules. When we’re not under the law anymore, we’re under grace. We’re saved by grace through faith alone.
I kind of blame the Deep South, Bible Belt Christianity, the fire & brimstone only denominations for not being the right example of what the gospel should be. There are those young people coming back into the faith, reading the word on their own and being astounded. Like, “wow I was only taught that God is mad, he’s angry and we’re all gonna burn”. Now I see that God is light, god is love, and god is life. God grieves, he’s patient, there’s joy in him, happiness, etc.
Are we really so surprised that progressive Christianity took off when many of our predecessors didn’t give us the gospel in full? We have a tendency to chop up pieces of the gospel message and slam hard into those parts. The book of Romans gives you the full road to salvation. The message of the cross.
Too many young people don’t want to be set apart. Somehow the enemy has convinced the youth that they’re missing out on the world. I regret that maybe some of those in these progressive churches had bad experiences with Christianity growing up and unfortunately pushed them into this problematic sect.
That pendulum swing really is hard to fight. As progressives gained traction more Conservative Christians reacted too far the other direction. That drove more people to be progressives.
I tell my kids I don’t want them to do the right thing for the wrong reason, I want them to love doing the right thing because it’s good. It’s when we obey out of love that we stop asking ‘how close to the line can I get without crossing it?’ Young people in particular need to stirred up to know the living God in a real and powerful way. If they’re hungry for the word they’ll seek truth and grow. And definitely church needs to be about more than entertainment. This is what I’m praying for in today’s church.
@@kross2143 too right
I kina skimmed your message but agree with your notion about the fire and brimstone teachings in the bible belt (i live in it). Some church have begun to seperate from such teachings like mine and have had the realizion of 2 key things past churches ignored.
1. Its a relationship, not a contract.
2. Theres Gods rules and then their mans rules.
Heck, many if not most of those churches talked about lucifer being an arch angel who fell from heavan but... that never actually happened. Its not in the bible and lucifer the name doesnt even show up anywhere except maybe some off the wall bibles that just put it in. But the original text excludes it.
Those past churches though were also filled with men that didnt know how to show love. It was a time where fathers worked and came home to a cooked meal and some days worked on the home but caring for and loving in the children was the mothers job. These were men some with hard hearts some with no knowledge of how to externally express love thus leading to such teaching their churches were known for.
@@kross2143 amen. Well said
As I became Christian I unconsciously embraced progessive views without knowing what that is. Now I can say: If GOD says there is a hell... there IS a hell!
P.S.:I liked the shack, but not as a theological ressource.
GOD bless you
The Shack was enjoyable but it sucked realizing that what I thought was poetic in the movie was actually heresy and what the director believed LOL
Progressivism is, in simple terms, a way to mislead people by abusing their compassion. In every case, what they want you to do is less compassionate, but they trick you into feeling better about it. This rule is never wrong. If you ever begin to feel a lurch of compassion, stop, think, ask yourself who's trying to trick you. 90% of the time it's some subversive or dishonest cretin that wants to use you.
Take your copy of The Shack, and burn it. There is nothing in there that speaks to the truth of the Word. Just giving some advice, not condemning you. But it really is garbage. Stay strong!
@@chuckcribbs3398 I don't have a copy. I won't get my theology from a movie so there is no need for concern. Infact, thanks for yours. I know that it could become something very dangerous.
@@josephbrandenburg4373 Amen!
I completely understood the whole "torture vs suffering" because I've always tried to be careful and meaningful with my choice of words. I'm glad you guys caught. On the issue of deciding whether 'sin is bad' vs 'hell is bad' really conveys one's mental maturity towards God. Nonetheless, messages like these that can help one minister to others as well as assist progressives to analyze their intentions. Thank you for this video.
I've now memorized this intro word for word
this is the only comment that matters LOL
@@vonamir2000 hahaha
Haha prove it
I used to "argue" with a lot of self proclaimed atheists on the internet that "used to be" Christians. But as they would go down their laundry list of complaints against Christianity, I noticed, OVER AND OVER AND OVER, that their complaint was not about Christianity. Virtually every single one of them was raised catholic, and their complaints were about specific aspects of Catholicism, not Christianity.
Not that Catholicism is "bad". This is strictly an observation, and nothing more. Make of it what you will.
I've dealt with the same. And being raised in that faith somehow makes them "an expert" simply because they used to believe and went to church. As James says (and Paul somewhere), even the demons believe, and Satan himself. It's illogical to assume that just because you once were part of something you know all. The Bible is meant to be studied and we're meant to learn how to defend our faith. I really wonder if they bothered to get their questions answered, or left as soon as they had seen an objection that seemed reasonable to them. It's quite saddening to me, because once given in to that "reasonable objection" without questioning, it's so easy for ignorance to take over that particular heart, therefore ignoring any logical conclusion that goes against any of their objections.
Catholicism is a cult that started 600 years after Jesus .....it is bad very bad!
@The bible approves Abortion Why would I speak of it in any other way? It is demonstrable, the evidence is there friend.
@The bible approves Abortion science and metaphysics also give great explanation and evidence for a Creator. Science does not disprove God, but moreso God proves science
@The bible approves Abortion No, there are explanations man. And there are videos on the topic of God and science being heavily related. Vince Vitale has a forum on it I'm particularly fond of, but that's all up to you to search for the evidence. If I were a presuppositionalist I would not make it a necessity to search for such evidence and take it to heart.
Thanks Mike and Alisa. This has been a great series and has definitely solidified my faith in the Word of God and in Jesus as the way, the truth and the light.
I'm so enjoying these mini series because I don't always have time for the longer videos! Thanks & Blessings ~Sidney
I second this
We were in 2 progressive churches which were attractive to us, as they advertised as "conservative", but were not. Then subtly the legalism swept in, little by little. 1 eye opener was that when the members started saying "those other churches are legalist", I responded "All religious groups are legalist, but sometimes you have to look for it." Then God revealed the issues to me, slowly.
It’s been said before but progressive “christianity” isn’t Christianity
It never was just a mockery of Biblical Christianity because nothing from “Progressive” is from the Word of God.
@@davidbermudez7704 i think mlk john brown eugene debs and frederick Douglass would all have a world with you...
It is christianity,you guys are believing myths about progressive christianity and sure some of progressive christian aren't christian but most of them are christians.
Conservative christianity isnt christianity.
The Apostle Paul should be very ashamed based on this. Thank you, Mike and Alisa, for doing this series. One skill believers in Jesus Christ have lost is the ability to defend the gospel (and every part of scripture. I learned more from Rush Limbaugh on how to defend a viewpoint (primarily in the form of asking the other person a question) than the Church ever taught me. What the two of you are doing here is of great value. May the Lord bless you and protect you.
"Pick your flavor of Christianity" comes a little too close to Bill Nye's perverse ice cream cartoon from his Netflix series. But more than that, it sounds like the wide and winding road that leads to destruction.
There's Christianity, and there's Christianity-based cults like the Church of Rome, the Eastern churches, the Latter-day Saint movement, Millerism, Ruckmanism, etc. But there's only one true Christianity.
@@fnjesusfreakSo people that hold to Ruckmanism are heretics and not Christians?
@@johntrevett2944 They replace faith in Christ with acceptance of the KJV as the means of salvation. That makes them no longer Christians.
Ruckman also taught that in certain cases salvation would need to be achieved by works, which is antithetical to scripture.
@@fnjesusfreak What is that one true Christianity?
@@met5522 That which follows the Bible, in its 66-book form.
Rev 20:10 speaks of 'torment'. I actually think that many people confuse the word torment with torture, as there is a type of torment in the act of torture. When you consider the meaning of torment, it is actually something that can be self applied or self realised in ones mind or spirit without externally being applied, as apposed to torture of which is applied by an outside source & is generally considered physical violence with a vindictive, mental distress causing element.
My faith rests in the knowledge that our Heavenly Father will only do what is perfectly just & right & because of this, His perfect love casts out any fear of eternal torment.
Thanks again Mike & Alisa, this has been another insightful & valuable series.
I never considered the differences between torture and torment. Interesting :)
Excellent point. Even regret can be a form of torment. I was tormented every night by every mistake I'd ever made until I became a Christian and Jesus took that load off of me.
You guys wisdom and videos have help us so much as leader of our youth group in the series we are doing biblical fundamentals vs. popular ideologies!
I'm eternally grateful that God provides a way to avoid Hell.
..Diann.. what kind of God creates such a place as Hell? such a God would be no better than a Satan!
Buuuut you wouldn’t have to avoid it if god hadn’t created it. I mean I guess I’m grateful god presents a workaround to his horrifying lapse in judgement, but I’d rather there just not be eternal punishment for something as menial as a lack of belief.
@Royal Blu ..Royal.. what kind of God creates such a place as Hell? such a God would be no better than a Satan, indeed, would be Satan! and guess what the worst sin is? not worshping this God! God hates those who do not worship Him! the followers of this Jealous God have always hated nonbelievers, nonworshpers.. this is why there has never been peace thru-out history with people of faith.. God hates nonworshipers, and so do the believers of this God! what chance peace with such people? nonwhatsoever! we know this to be Fact, because of the history of Judaism, Christianity and Islam.. all of these faiths hate those not of the faith, it was always that way, and still is so even today!..
see Exodus 32;26-28, 'Moses stood in the gate of the camp and said, 'Who is on the LORD'S side? take swords, and kill the nonbelievers!'.. Moses Jealous God approves of the murder of nonbelievers!
what kind of God is this?
@@GARYWERSLEY It was always so with human beings. It has nothing to do with faiths. Human beings hate the out group. It is Christs saying love your enemy that even made your judgement possible to take seriously, which it absolutely should. Now I agree that God sounds horrible in the standard modern conception on Hell, which has been changing over the centuries mind you. The only sin is not loving God and everyone you meet, which are the same thing. Heaven is here now, inside you. The Kingdom of heaven is that place of peace you are rewarded with for living in love with all creation. Hell is the absence of that peace. It is simply the nature of the kingdom that it must be entered willingly. It is not about being worthy, but about choosing it, after God has made it possible for us to do so. It is the choosing it that makes it what it is. It is in the kingdom you can enjoy the thought of having helped someone, fasted, etc., which can only be had by not doing those things for external reasons, but only for God in your heart. Modern Christians tend to be focused on the future and where they are going after death, thinking heaven is some future place. But heaven is where all immaterial (for lack of a better word) exists always, and the kingdom is that place in heaven where one is protected from judgement, hate, death, etc, and can enjoy the fruits of the Spirit where it manifests in life. The ressurection in the future is a different matter, and upon that event one will continue to live in the kingdom or outside it. The question of hell is a question of whether it is possible to become such a person as would never be able to accept forgiveness or give it to ones worst enemies, and thus never choose the kingdom. Regardless of this everyone will live for ever. Those in the kingdom will all live together, and everyone else will wail gnash their teeth for their moral indignation, hopefully not for ever.
@@MortenBendiksen ..Morten.. Jesus said, love your enemies, but only if they believe in Me! if they do not, then you must hate them! Hate them with a passion! Jesus had about as much hatred as he had love.. he demonstrates this in his nasty angry diatribes against Pharisee's and Sadducee's.. he was very insulting to them, and in fact, we can probly blame Jesus for all anti semitism of Christianity.. in fact, we can probly blame Paul for that as well.. historically, Christians have hated Jews and punished them for being Jews.. we can thank Jesus for that!
and you say that human beings hate the out group?
the Bible tells us that there was never any faith or religion more hateful than ancient Judaism.. this is why Paul was able to say that in his day,
'Jews were persecutors and contrary to all men!' 1Thes.2:15..
.. we must ask the question, what kind of God tells his followers that they must hate and despise those who do not share their faith? what kind of God says, 'Make no covenant with nonbelievers, separate yourselves from them, do not eat with them, keep your children away from them!'
what? where is the LOVE?
according to Jesus and the Bible, Hell was created for those who do not believe in Moses Jealous God, those who did not worship.. and Hell, a place of Eternal Torment.. A Lake Fire, where the flame is never quenched, where the Fiery Worm dieth not..' we must ask, what is this Lake Of Fire? what is the Fiery Worm? what kind of God would create such a place? certainly not a God Of Love!
another question, what kind of God Demands worship, else he will punish those who do not worship? such a God would surely be no better than a Satan!
...
The father of the prodigal son ran to him when he was returning home. The father in the story didn't go out to the son while he was in the middle of his riotous living nor when he feigned to eat the husks that were fed to the pigs. It was when the son had a repentant heart with pure intent. The father respected his son's agency so much that he let him squander all of his inheritance. But all the while, the father was waiting, hoping that his child could come back. God never excuses our sins nor will he swoop in and stop us if we want to turn from Him, but He is always right there when we repent.
My worship pastor does not want me (one of the music leaders) to choose songs written by white males. Wants me to choose artists of color instead...Made my jaw drop. I'm like, who cares about their skin color? Whats the song about, what's the theology of the song, how does it fit with the sermon etc?
"AD" UA-cam channel talks about the critical race theory movement into the church.
Be aware it is going on.
Stay strong.
Stay away from any church that causes division. The songs are about worship and giving glory to God, not about promoting one skin colour above another. The pastor at your church is treading a dangerous ungodly path.
He's a racist in the purest sense.
Mike, Thank u SO much for your work! I appreciate your work in beautifully ( and with receipts) articulating what so many of us deeply know, but dont always have words for.
It is easy to be taken off guard and to not know what to say when the moment comes. These talks help is so much in being prepared in understanding where others are coming from and how to respond to their challenges.
I really appreciate this series! Thank you Mike and Alisa for doing this together. God bless you both!
what's wrong with progressive Christianity is that progressive Christianity isn't Biblical Christianity!
I have a friend who unfriended me on Facebook as he was a progressive. They only accept what appeals to them. In him I saw this. They literally pick and choose what to believe. He was À la cart when it came to scripture. If it did not line up with their view it was flowed passages.
So their belief in a nutshell is:
Sin doesn't matter. Everyone is going to heaven no matter what they believe, no matter if they accept Jesus or not.
So what's the point of being a Christian? What's the point of worshiping or trying to follow the teachings of Jesus if we're all going to heaven regardless?
I can see the inclusion argument in that God has extended an open invitation to everybody, but it's up to each person to choose Him and if they don't, they are excluded.
@AntiCap Atheist
Your comment was thought-provoking, so thank you for leaving it as a reply.
I'd say one major difference between your example and the idea of God giving people a choice to be included is the people on a date weren't created by the other person. God created us and wants to fellowship with us, but in giving us free will, He won't force us to stay. That would be to torture to make someone endure being in a place they didn't choose for themselves.
Two people going on a date is not an equal comparison because one did not create the other. They are interacting, sure, but their origins, motives for interacting, and responsibilities are quite different.
Love yer 4 steps, Mike!
These people have no shame.
Here's a thought: it used to be that the Church TOOK A STAND on Doctrine, and people either did, or didn't, conform to the church. But now, people dont want anything to be a sin and constantly try to make the church conform to "them".
I would love if you took this format and go through one of the multiple "contradictions in the bible" lists and explain how they are not. Except maybe this time, not have an intro each video for later playlists :)
Multiple contradictions?? Or multiple alleged contradictions??
@@mikeyant2445 hence the quotes ;)
I think the intro is necessary because someone may randomly come across this video and not know there’s many more like it and that it comes from a longer conversation. It may be monotonous for us as regular subscribers but a great addition for the video as a whole! :)
Maybe just add chapters, or time markers in the description.
@@eduardandrejev He did!
Thank you for such clear Biblical content!! I really appreciate you taking the time to wade through all these aspects of progressive Christianity. I think both of you must be operating in the power of the Holy Spirit because you have beautiful humble attitudes and you don't seem to become exhausted. He gives you strength. I'm praying for that! And I'm praying for you both as well. Thanks!
As a dentist I wish there was a better metaphor
Thank you so much for your stripped down biblical commonsense approach to the truth of God’s word! You definitely are not frustrating the Grace of salvation and that's a beautiful thing.
Omg I'm so glad you guys are doing this series. I'm digusted how people are seriously misinterpreting and twisting scriptures. This is guy is literally bringing ppl to hell in droves
Evil or ignorant.
The difference between grounding a child and being sent to Hell, is that eventually the grounding will be over.
Hell is literally forever. It is suffering until the end of the universe, and then you continue suffering.
Right? Calling a painful checkup at the dentist, or getting a parking ticket torture then saying that's the same as hell being a place of torture, completely dismisses the eternal aspect of hell. It looks like a major strawman fallacy to me.
Thank you for pointing this out in your comment.
Your pointing to a difference in quantity (a week vs forever) but not a difference in quality (not being able to see friends vs not being able to see God for example).
Mike's point was that if "punishment is torture" as a axiom is true, then something as benign as grounding, since it is punishment, is also torture. He was not equating them but rather using them to to show that the underlying assumption is false.
@@nicholemoore2448 A strawman is misrepresenting what others believe. If make claimed that progressive view grounding as torture, that would be a strawman, What he was doing is saying if this form of punishment is torture, why not this other punishment. I am going to be very pedantic here.... but that is called a false equivalence.
But I will also defend Mike's argument here. I have heard of people asking their new born baby for consent to cover it with a blanket. Seriously, someone actually did that. Because they took the principle of never violate someone else's consent and followed it all the way as if it was a virtue. And if you think extremes are the issue here, consider lying. Many have died because they were not willing to lie, yet we view them as heroic and the parents mentioned earlier as idiots.
So I can't fault Mike as I think it is actually logically consistent to jump from hell to grounding. If "punishment is torture", then grounding is just less severe limited torture, but still torture.
Jesus is Lord!!
Wow! I am so very blessed by your teaching and the way that you use the Bible alongside some very strong reasoning. I am just recently a blind man, and I have been looking for something like this on the Internet for a long time. Would love to have a chat with you sometime! Bless you!
Well said family 👏
I would also suggest that if they think that Jesus is part of the deal if you like it or not... Wouldn't that fall under eternal torture for the one who does not want Jesus or for some reason hates him?
Haha, good point
That was the most beautiful thing that she read near the end. So much truth. Hits my heart deeply.
This was a great series! Would love to see you partner up with Steven Bancarz (Reasons for Jesus) to do more on progressive/New Age and Christianity. 💜
1Corinthians 13 says ".....Love does not rejoice with unrighteousness, but rejoices in the truth......" We have in many ways warped the Biblical definition of love. When truth is redefined as hate the water gets muddy really fast. Thank you for your thoughtful and careful discussion.
"Causing suffering isn't torture if it serves a greater purpose."
That's why when god sends you to hell, there's a phase 2 where you recieve the benefits of the suffering, oh, nvm, it's just endless revenge p0rn.
You guys work very well together on this stuff. Really glad I saw this. Would love to see more of you! 🙏👏👏
The only progress that 'Progressive Christianity' makes is to downplay sin and create God in man's image.
I noticed on the issue of Hell that neither Mike or Alisa defined what they think Hell is. Without knowing how they define Hell, there's no way to determine whether Hell would qualify as torture. I also disagree with the idea that torture is a moral judgment. Torture is the act of intentionally inflicting severe pain on a person. Dentists typically aren't trying to cause their patients pain, so I don't think that analogy works. A prison guard beating an inmate would be a better analogy. Would a reasonable person consider a guard beating an inmate to be torture?
Without knowing how Mike and Alisa define Hell, I can't make a judgment about their view, but I can make a judgment about the general view of Hell, which is typically eternal punishment in the land of fire and brimstone. If that is Hell and anyone who sins and doesn't repent goes there, regardless of the nature of their sins, then Hell would fit the definition of torture. It's severe pain intentionally (and perpetually) inflicted on a person as punishment from God.
I think the issue here is that most people find torture to be wrong and evil, so applying this concept to anything God does creates conundrum for those who view God as moral and just. God is good, therefore he can't do evil things, and since torture is evil, what he does (punishing people in Hell) can't be torture.
Well said!
Hosea 4:6
King James Version
6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
That is the book I am back to restudy on. Nice.
Truth is forward and done.
Deception has to cycle back and reword, in that order to deny.
God offers bread, not a buffet.
As an unregenerate sinner, I remember the weight of God's law, and how it tormented me. Imagine how great that is in eternity, with no reprieve, for the unrepentant.
The unregenerate hate God's law. To the believer, God's law and gospel are precious.
I suppose I view things regarding our salvation in a progressive way more so than conservative. Not because it “suits me” better, but because that’s my interpretation. I don’t hate conservative Christians, I completely understand your perspectives. I listen to and read your beliefs and commentary. (I grew up Southern Baptist btw.). I just choose not to argue or “debate” about it anymore. I know you probably think I’m damned because of it, but I truly do not believe I will be.
Progressive Christianity = I want to be a Christian, but I want to selectively believe what the bible says and its my opinion over GODs...
The God that punishes Hitler in hell is worse than Hitler
The God that lets Hitler into heaven is good?
Universalists don't think very clearly.
Well done! Thank you both for tackling these tough issues!
It is inclusive. No one is denied Christ's grace. His invitation is open to all, but the grace and salvation is only through Jesus Christ.
I think the most charitable case this claim has is the notion of being saved thru general revelation, without explicit knowledge of Christ. They are saved by Christ, just not as explicitly as someone who has the full knowledge of him (ie Abraham, for example). In that sense, "all who are saved are saved by christ whether you like it or not", but not in a all-inclusive universalist sense
I think it's okay to admit that based on the scope of my understanding, I don't personally like the idea of hell and find it difficult to reconcile, but I also trust in God's perfect judgement. I have confidence that whatever I don't understand now will be made clear upon the second coming, when every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is lord and all things will be made known. Our comprehension of God's judgement will only be as complete as the limitations of a human mind will allow until the day when all things are made new.
“If you want to hear God speak, read your Bible. If you want to hear God speak audibly, read your Bible out loud.”
- Justin Peters
Naive people believe not only that the Bible is inerrant, but also every reader and interpreter of the Bible is also inerrant. ;-)
@@Zulonix I've actually since this comment left the faith
If you claim to be a Christian and find yourself regurgitating favourite talking points of nonbelievers, you are simply deluding yourself.
Agreed! People deluding themselves is exactly what we are hearing more and more. Why is that? I believe it is one of two issues.
1) For some (mainly the social justice warriors), the Gospel no longer has power for individuals to change. They are not content to lovingly, without compromise, tell people - that more of Jesus is the answer. Know and love Jesus. Jesus is the Word of Life! Jesus through sanctification will change you, for all of your life.
2) For the rest? They tell us “We MUST agree with the sin and just forget that we are ALL in need of a Savior.”
My answer to both.... Ask the Holy Spirit (not your friends or your college professor or a SJW pastor) for guidance and be a Berean and search the Scriptures
Family can I ask you to pray for my friend Cassie? She is recently divorced (1 year ago). She is dating a man who attends a progressive "church". My wife is good friends with her. My wife and I are solid in the faith but are very concerned this new man will lead our friend to turn to a false gospel. This series is timely. Thank you.
**Update** The relationship ended. Praying my friend will find God is a fuller way during this time. And that she will embrace the faith handed down once for all time. In Christ. -Luke
Sending prayers Luke! Thank you for watching out for God's daughters!
@AntiCap Atheist LOL.
@@daddyeagen The guy broke it off with my friend. Praying she finds a solid foundation in Christ and that if it's His will she finds a godly man someday.
The prodigal son came to his senses and acknowledged that he had sinned and came back to the father (confessing and repenting). That's the key that folks miss.
When I became an atheist I had already left my conservative Christianity and been a progressive Christian for a decade or more. The Christianity I now rail against is primarily the conservative beliefs I held years ago. To an extent I do 'over-simplify' those beliefs in the way you describe but there's a good reason for that.
I now realise that I tied myself in knots in order to justify and rationalise the difficult bits, the passages and tenets that to the outsider make God look like a moral monster but to the initiated are explained away by God's 'mystery', God's 'holiness' or even some twisted idea of God's love.
The torture example you gave is a perfect illustration of this.
You said that the dentist isn't torturing you because there's a purpose to it - some positive aim. But we still call it torture when enemy combatants are subjected to waterboarding or worse in order to make them give information that would save lives. The question is not whether there's a reason for it.
What good does it do to allow or impose eternal suffering and torture? It does no good at all. It's a moral travesty. If any human were to do this they would be taken to the Hague and put on trial.
The things that I rationalised away as a conservative Christian are horrific. You're doing the same and it has dire consequences regarding how you view others. If you can justify eternal torture you can justify anything.
God made the law and set the consequences. Of course as a human I'm going to let my emotions try to reject God's truth. Doesn't make the Bible's statements on the wages of sin subject to my interpretation :shrug:
@@andrewcramer9200
Do you have good evidence that God made the law and set the consequences?
@@ChrisFineganTunes Do you have good evidence you were ever a Christian?
@@festushaggen2563
I have my own personal testimony and those of my friends and family who I've been to church with, prayed with, studied the Bible with...
@@ChrisFineganTunes How do you define what a Christian is and isn't?
I love the story of the prodigal son (I actually prefer to call it the story of the prodigal God) because it gives us a very small glimpse of how much the Father loves us and to what ends He will go to restore us to relationship with Himself. The extent of His love for us is beyond our imagination, beyond our wildest dreams!
But to use the elder son in the parable of the prodigal as an argument for universalism seems odd since the elder son is OUTSIDE the celebration at the end of the story.
Accuse your opponents of doing the same things you do. Progressivism in a nutshell.
You handled this so gracefully. That person's misinterpretation and twisted context of scripture about gave me an aneurysm!
God bless!
Believe me over the years I’ve been through those kind of people especially when they take out of context Matthew 7:1
LOL
James 3.13-16, thank you for the good word on these 23 items.
Thank you for this. My only comment would be that God doesn't send anyone to hell. We're all destined for hell because of our sin. God provides a way of rescue (the only way) through the atoning sacrifice of Christ on the cross. His mercy and grace provides a way of rescue. Apart from Christ's atoning work on the cross we have no hope. What a loving and kind Father that He provides a way of rescue at all. It's pretty arrogant that we would demand He provide multiple ways to avoid the judgment we all deserve. What more could He do to set us free? He did everything possible. We just need to accept what He did and repent. It's as simple as that.
The email writer misused the prodigal son story, yes the father did come running to the son, but the son had repented of his sin
But nobody can repent unless the Holy Spirit draw them and then they must respond.
@@ValerieJean757 re read the parable again... you will see that the son did repent!
@@michaelhamlin5011 I agree, the son repented.
Thank you for bringing this up.
So clear, concise and Scriptural. Thank you for your clear and Biblical thinking and leading us in that.
Progressive Christianity appears to be the epitome of what I call ‘Bumper-Sticker Theology”.
People that make life choices, craft a theology, or derive their world view from a clever sounding meme or quip are utter fools.
Lol
““Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.” Matthew 7:13-14 ESV
God is who He says He is, not who we say He is.
You guys are both great! I appreciate your in depth and careful examination of scripture!👍 I have progressive theological friends and I hope and pray they see the lies and turn back to the truth of what the Bible really says! Thanks and God bless!
"Progressive christians" were just trolling the whole time.
Yet people loss salvation by believing what they want to hear.
this mike guy is wisdom in a nutshell. I like how you explain your answers, and you are slow to anger, like thats something i struggle with, and i need to drive myself to be more like you, and most of all like Christ.
Its sorta like what was said. All people are saved through Christ. Even Job who declared "my redeemer lives". Its inclusive for all who are saved from the beginning. It certainly excludes those who reject him.
Amen. The O.T. Saints looked forward to the cross, we look back at the cross.
@@bryguy8203 Very true, but what about those who were geographically separated from the region of the OT OG's. I kind of view it as taking the stance "this place is messed up but God will eventually fix it".
@@malvokaquila6768 Well as we know Jesus died for the sin of the world and is the only way to Heaven, all the way back to "Righteous Abel." Romans 2 really helped me in that it states God will Judge according to the light of Himself he gives to each man, no more and no less. The more light the more we are responsible for. The natural man has nature and conscience(Romans 2), The Jews had the Law, we have the Gospel and are accountable for more for we have the greatest light and knowledge of God of all, and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Hope not too much info here, I was blessed when I learned this awhile back. Take Care, B.
The only "stream" that leads to the Father's house is the crimson red stream spilled out by the body of Christ on the cross for our sins. Jesus said if we don't believe we will die in our sins. Know the Word and know the Word of God. Thank you, Mike and Alisa exposing the lies so people can find Jesus and salvation.
The so called “gospel” quoted near the end of this video makes me sick. Those lead astray by this false teaching have my pity. Yes, we have a just God, and this they will heartily know soon enough: Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, know comes to the Father except through him.
The conservative view of hell most certainly is torture. It has traditionally been presented this way _explicitly_ in art and proselytizing by many denominations. A parking ticket is a limited punishment for a limited and specific transgression. Hell is an unlimited punishment for a limited transgression, & one that conservative Christians usually grant is not even specific to the individual but is general to all mankind (“sinful nature”, “original sin”, etc.)
Worse, the whole premise of Christianity is that hell is not even really punishment for sins but merely for not worshiping Jesus. After all, conservative Christian teaching usually explicitly allows that if you worship Jesus & ask for forgiveness, your actual specific sins will be forgiven & _never_ punished. So hell is “punishment” only for _non-belief._ It is a corrupt bargain of an unsophisticated but manipulative people.
This is good stuff . It is sad that folks twist scripture in this way.
In discussing hell, Winger engages in a false-dichotomy. He compares hell to a parent punishing a child or a parking ticket in order to defend hell as being a just judgement. These are categorically different from hell because these are temporary states after the punishment the child is reconciled to the parent after the parking ticket is paid the motorist is reconciled to the criminal justice system.
In Winger's understanding of hell, the proper parenting analogy is disownment. B/c the sinner is forever driven from the presence of YHWH without recourse. Similarly the proper legal analogy would be the death penalty b/c once the punishment of death is exacted it is irrevocable.
Well I mean I guess it's inclusive in that anyone CAN come through Jesus.
Inclusive yet exclusive.
It's interesting how language can be understood. Like, hearing this and thinking i could agree but i don't know, but then a bit later "ohh, THAT'S how they meant "inclusive/exclusive". I thought about the passage in context of the book or somehting. I'm glad i have the possibility to learn K Greek and Hebrew o.O Maaaybe it'll help clearing my own misunderstandings.
God same yesterday today forever
Just putting a thought out there, but l think what's often missesd is that there's a difference between judgement and discipline.
Keep up the good fight all.x
Progressive Christianity is a PART of the great apostasy to come in the end of days. But in reality progressive christianity isn't christianity at all, there is ONE God, and he is the Lord, the same yesterday, today, and forever. His word does not change for us, we ought to change for Him.
🤯🤯🤯🤯 English is not even my first language.. but how Progressive “christians” can’t or don’t want to read obvious plain English in the Bible is crazy. Hell is what we all deserve, I deserve it, you deserve it, there is evil in our nature. That’s why Jesus went to the cross and is my Saviour.
The fact that it isn't Biblical Christianity
The fact that it isn't Christianity
Individualism vs. Collectivism is the philosophical dilemma this country is facing.
Who will you bend your knee to, God or government ?
There is a reason why when the Bill Of Rights was penned that it acknowledged that these things are inalienable, because if these rights are from God they are cemented and fixed.
If these rights are given to you by man and government, these rights are not "Rights" but only allowances. And if a man allows you, he may also revoke these allowances.
Would you do a debate on Catholicism
yes please do
He has some videos where he speaks on Catholicism. Just fyi❤️
My question is would you want him to debate Catholic theology as Christian or not Christian?
@@SpidermanandJeny I don't get your question, I want to refute his objects
*objections
Hi I’m a progressive Christian! 💕
I think the disconnect on this final point is how it’s being understood? “Everyone is in” is essentially a message that a relationship with God is available to everyone. Everyone was made in the image of God & everyone has had God breathe into them. There’s no “chosen race” (I say that literally because The Bible refers to us all as a chosen race. But it’s not like a literal tribe/ race/ nationality), but rather a collective of people who have become aware of the Holy Spirit which is the spirit of Christ. That doesn’t necessarily mean everyone is going to heaven. What is salvific for progressive Christians is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Because it’s the only unforgivable sin. You can’t blaspheme Agape Love which is at the core of the Holy Spirit, or the grace, deliverance, healing or acceptance that comes from it. Yes, that will drag you into the pit of hell. Anyone who has read the Bible should know this. Jesus said you can blaspheme The Father and even Jesus... but if you blaspheme the Holy Spirit you have rejected the very thing that creates that forgiveness. This is a CRITICAL part of salvific issues that is OFTEN overlooked & not addressed. And IF you’re watching a Christian shatter a person rather than heal a person & call it Godly... it might be met with some “spice & fervor” from a progressive Christian. Not gonna lie. 😂
As far as the fact that we don’t all have to agree. Even within conservative Christianity there’s 1000 flavors. Mike, you just did a video about 6 ways to interpret Revelation. 😂 Everyone just needs to workout their own salvation.
The other thing is that... this ENTIRE series has been “my View is righteous” against progressive Christianity 😂... without a progressive Christian present to correct you on your inaccurate interpretation of these ideas & the biblical theology behind them. I think you see that kind of push back on conservative Christians because of the things people say to us. People have gathered together to attack us all year 😂😂 I’ve had people literally say “God wouldn’t” & “F*** off” in the same comment to me BECAUSE I’m a progressive Christian. Represent God well, guys! Fortunately, I’m well rooted in my faith. But if I were more flimsy in my faith? A lot of conservative Christians would have made me atheist within the past year. Y’all wouldn’t have made a drop of fruit. Not because they didn’t tell me what I wanted to hear, but because they had no CLUE what Love was & failed every checkbox from 1 Corinth 13:1-13. We’re all called to correct one another. But to do so without rivalry, contention, sectarianism, malice or intimidation. Be blessed. 🙂
As an evangelical Christian I really appreciate your perspective from the other side. You make a good point that not all progressive Christians would agree but it seems to me that Mike was understanding the this particular writer's ideas pretty well? The article he was responding to seemed too direct and bluntly put to misinterpret very much. It does seem like there is a spectrum in the church however and while the writer seems to be coming from the absolute extreme many on the spectrum who call themselves progressive would be closer to the evangelical side.
@@cmcapps1963 Thanks for your considerate dialogue. I would say that most progressives come from a more traditional background, but many of our stances may make us more progressive than evangelical. I think there's 2 camps for the most part (from what I see.) People who became progressives because they read MORE of the Bible. And then people who became progressives because the didn't at all. lol. I will say a lot of the topics that Mike read weren't foreign concepts to me. But a lot of the way interpreted these concepts were very, very off. And not really what is meant by those statements at all. I really wish the church would "reach across the aisle" so to speak and have more conversations & 2-way dialogues. At the end of the day, we're all just Christians. Sectarianism isn't of God. But we have a responsibility as a body to listen to what God is showing one another & to accept that we all have PART. When we only listen to those who believe like we do? ... We might as well not be a Body anymore. We miss the whole point.
Please make a video on: "only by taking the mark of the beast you would be damned or is It necessary to worship the image/beast?
Please answer with Bible verses.
And also: could the mark be a vaccine?
It is written that the mark of the beast will grant you access to buying and selling stuff. I assume it is physical or other ways it needs to be checked if you have it. In the book of revelations the mark of the beast is presented together with verses about worshipping the beast or the image. Satan wants to be like God and so he will want worshippers. Those I know well have suggested its about swearing allegiance and so it will be a choice between God or Satan. However I don't know if it will look so black and white, one thing for sure, if you have the Holy Spirit you will never accidently take the mark. Jesus will not allow it.
If you are interested we can talk about it? Not that I know much, but I could be a wall for you to throw a few thoughts and questions up against? It is up to you :) God bless you friend!
@@rebekaalittlesheep9289 I studied the texts in Rev specially 14:11 and 20:4 and Its not clear, for me, that a mark could be placed in advance for, further, asked to praise the image. One thing is for shure the image will kill the elect, for the rest of the entire Worls will adore It.
They do not understand that God punishes BECAUSE he loves us.
"Believe what you want we're all in" is a cop out for not evangelizing.
Which Jesus commanded us to do.
I think what people seem to forget is that the world has gotten to a stage where you could have a specific view and you can go online and find so much that will be in support of what you believe and at the same time find the same amount that would be against your views. I am not a progressive Christian but I wouldn’t say I am fully conservative either by virtue of the fact that I’m a working independent woman. If I look in the Bible I would find a ton of scriptures against my lifestyle but you as a conservative would say “that’s acceptable” but women are deemed less then men in the Bible, they were even offered up sacrificially to be abused to prevent men from committing things like homosexuality, yet I lead teams where men report to me. In the context of biblical times I would not be allowed to do that. For me it’s about your convictions and being at peace with the consequences of your actions. Having said that it is still a very good discussion and I am always keen to hear other views.